It takes a truly special kind of media illiteracy to watch or at least attempt to watch a show like Star Trek: Lower Decks whose entire mission statement is "all of Star Trek is valid, even the weird shit that you hate like 40 foot tall Spocks and the dumpy blue Orions from TAS" and then turn around and think it would de-canonize anything.
The way that people mis-use the word "canon" just annoys me. People nowadays use "canon", when what they really mean is "continuity". I have been pretty outspoken in discussing this in the Tolkien fandom.
If you ask me, continuity is a subset of canon that refers to the events of a story or series, while canon is broader and is about what is "True" in a particular setting or story and that something can fall into both categories and what word you use depends on what context you are talking about. So, for example, Boimler growing beard is continuity, while him having one is canon. Or when a story makes a call back to something that happens earlier is continuity, while the event being called back to is canon.
@@Crazael You can use words however you like. But Canon is a legal term, used within IP and copyright law. Continuity doesn't, but it has an established meaning.
Personal favorite of the show poking fun of cannon was in DS9 timetravel episode where O'Brain asks Worf why Klingons look different and his reply was "We do not like to talk about it"
That was fun, though I think it would have also been funny if they had Michael Dorn in his normal makeup during 24th century scenes and in TOS Klingon makeup when in the 23rd century and just never comment on it.
@@emilymarriott5927 that would have been seriously funny. oh, now he looks this way. in the crossover between SNW and LD, they had a similar problem. style, animation, etc. and I thought the twist, that they felt 2D in the end, when drinking the orion drink was hilarious.
When I saw the bit where the Klingons, and their ship changed to resemble the discovery designs, I thought "Oh what a silly joke!". Because that's what it was, because Lower Decks was a madcap animated Sitcom. When I later discovered the "DIscovery erased from Canon" discourse, I was so confused. Do people not understand what genre Lower Decks exists in?
I laughed when I found out that people were actually taking that seriously. It's even more ridiculous than taking Worf's "We do not talk about it with outsiders" comment seriously.
It's weird because from what I saw, the "toxic fandom" hated Lower Decks just as much as Discovery for most of the same reasons, including its questionable canonicity. And really, there couldn't have been a bigger middle finger to the canon obsessives than the Lower Decks series finale, which really just tells me that 99% of the people trying to make this argument didn't watch it. They probably just saw a thumbnail with a screenshot on Twitter and decided "That's my truth now!"
I love Doctor Who because it's the only property that I can pull out the "Doctor Who doesn't have an official canon, shut up" line for when dealing with the outrage merchants saying thing XYZ isn't canon.
"My dear doctor, it's all canon. Even the contradictions? ESPECIALLY the contradictions." All that matters in an episode is what the show is trying to say. Every word, every event, to me, it's all canon. In the context of all episode, that episode "really" happened.
The show said out loud that the anomaly was a time thing as well as a multiverse thing. The gag is Disco Klingons = Past. If they had done the same visual gag with TOS Klingons we would not be saying TOS isn’t canon anymore, mfers are just being willfully obtuse
Because of this, Ill be honest, I thank you for this comment since I like this. Also, the Disco Klingons to me ARE canon, I just call them Prototype Klingons. Mainly to me because from Discovery, they always looked like that in their old phase, yet they would evolve into the later one we all know from Next Generations. Silly Toxic Fandom Star Trekian fans dont take a franchise too seriously cause then you end up not getting out of it alive. XD You know what, Im glad Im getting into Star Trek BECAUSE OF THE SILLY STUFF here. ;) Thank you Lower Decks for getting me properly into Star Trek like Doctor Who! :)
maybe a reason people are clinging to canon is, that they formed a way of looking at for example a show and dont want to challenge that this might not have been a universal experience. Especially since their takes are often very teenage formed
Unless someone tells the story otherwise, the Albino from DS9 will always be a Disco-style klingon to me, retroactively. Not having there be a direct connection was always a bit of a missed opportunity for me!
Dnd't ep1s2 of SNW did that with at lieast Disco and TNG Klingons? I know they went back to the TNG makeup for budget reasons but you still see some Disco Klingons. Personally I just love the idea of disco Klingons being a different ethnicity.
@@TheTrueOrionoh my gosh never thought of that! 😂😂😂 The thing is these Hollywood people don't memorise every minute of every episode like some trek fans have so they don't really think of the lesser plots and episodes.
The part at 7:30 is really it. Some people overly-fixate on really tiny production details, and then spin whole yarns about their significance. While often outright, or nearly, ignoring the actual story at hand. It honestly reminds me of people who study the Bible for "hidden patterns/messages".
I remember watching a YT video of guys that do in-depth videos on Star Trek ships and there was one interview they had with Rick Sternbach re: Voyager. In fandom conversations they always talk about the rotating nacelles and how that could tie into the warp limitations from "Force of Nature", but Rick basically said that was because Rick Berman and others wanted a cool thing for the ship to do during the SFX sequences so he came up with that...that's the story. Then when fans keep pressing these guys who, at the end of the day are artists, not naval architects, I can tell they're screaming inside their head for those folks to change the subject.
@@Trekpanther You must surely be talking about Trekyards. I really like those guys, they're really passionate, but man do they hyperfixate on the most obscure detail in everything. There's a place for that of course, but sometimes they can take it too far.
Cannon doesn't matter unless it's pointed at you. Beyond certain basic fundamentals of Star Trek it only matters as being a story about how the future could be or how it maybe should be. What does matter to me is that people who want ST: Disc to be non cannon essentially due to its diversity. It says a lot about who they are in real life.
Ok blue sky I posted: --- "Lower Decks confirms DIS is in an alternate universe!" Uhm, no, it doesn't. It confirms that Discovery looking Klingons also exist in an alternate universe, just like apparently infinite Harry Kim's and Klingon Barges and identical looking birds of prey. Media literacy, babes. --- And Mike Mc-fucking-Mahan himself liked it so I'm calling that case closed.
Lower Decks ens with the creation of an inter-reality portal, effectively making *everything* canon. Yet somehow making *everything* canon excludes Discovery. Make it make sense.
It's never, ever about cannon. It's about vibes. The borg changed wildly between Q Who and First Contact, but no one cared, because FC was a good movie, and the borg retained the same narrative function,: "seemingly unstoppable alien threat". If you drill down deep enough, complaints about "not respecting the canon" are just a front for, "this doesn't feel like Star Trek.".
Absolutely 100% agree. I have no problem with the Klingons in Discovery different per se, it's that they're aesthetically wrong and out of place in star trek. A fine design for a different show, but they stick out like sore thumbs i star trek. Also slightly resent the implication that people who don't like Discovery is because of wokeness. Star Trek has always been woke, or at least tried to be, its that Discovery did it all POORLY, just like everything else discovery did wrong. Its not about canonicity, its about substandard scifi storytelling, and characterizations written by people who have no appreciation for scifi. Basically, Discovery simply is a crappy show, and no amount of rationalization can fiz that. The just need better writers and showrunners, full stop.
@ I think the design fits fine into Star Trek. My question is, if you've changed their appearance, and their culture, and just their overall vibe, why do they have to be Klingons at all? They could have just been a completely new species, and it would have worked way better. But then you couldn't hype the "War with the Klingons" thing. Like a lot of modern Star Trek, it seems motivated by a cynical desire to draw in nostalgic fans, instead of just telling a good story and letting it speak for itself. It's insulting.
I would most definitely not say that "no one cared" about the changes with the Borg between TNG and First Contact. I think part of it is that in the mid-90s we were still in an era where people just understood that things change. TNG was a shot. First Contact was a movie. Of course, they might get an update because they can. But I've heard countless people bitch about how they changed the Borg in FC and into particularly Voyager.
@@rexmundi2986 I mean, my view on Klingons in discovery is basically "oh, here are some different Klingons over there that look different for some reason" and move on. I think Discovery was more hampered by, as Jessie pointed out, pressures around its production. Namely it being a shorter, serialized show made exclusively for streaming. With few exceptions, Star Trek has largely been episodic and while plot lines can run through series it isn't usually just "here are 10 episodes in a row that are all the same story." It's clear, at least to begin with, they felt that these short 10-episode seasons needed to be serialized. Perhaps they are finally figuring out with shows like SNW and LD that they don't have to be. But that is a growing pain Discovery had to live with.
I think the Gorn as shown in Strange New Worlds actually supports the original series storyline. We never get much exposition or backstory in that episode other than, the Federation and the Gorn are having brushfire wars over colonies, and because of the events of the episode, the Gorn eventually become Federation allies. Strange New Worlds provides context to that conflict. "Why are the Federation and the Gorn going to war?" the primary conflict is a difference of how the two cultures interact with one another. It's a difference that can be overcome, but portraying the interaction with fear, shows why it requires the TOS Episode to open dialogue.
Personally, I wish that people will eventually go back to a more mythic approach of how we view stories. That the contradictions are irrelevant. Canon is in my opinion the result of the printing press and intellectual properties at the expense of oral traditions in which each retelling only had to be true to itself and not some bigger context.
The Discovery haters fall into two basic categories: bigots who watch Star Trek for the militaristic starship class designations, technobabble, and space battles while totally missing its message, and pedantic canon-humpers who get irrationally angry whenever something doesn't conform to their exact idea of what "the rules" are. They're kind of like religious fundamentalists.They both infuriate me for different reasons.
I do think DISCO had issues on it's own, particularly season 3. A lot of times it felt like they were rushing their story to wrap things up before the season ended.
@oaf-77 I don't dispute that, but that's more an issue of consistency and to a certain extent continuity, which is a separate idea from something like like canon. For example there are continuity issues between say Diamonds are Forever and For Your Eyes Only in the Bond series, but they're both canon with each other, whereas Never Say Never Again is not
Jesse I've been a Star Trek fan since the 1960s I'm telling you right now that's not the reason why we don't like Discovery. The first couple of seasons of Discovery there was no crew dynamic. Michael Burnham was the boss and if you didn't like it... Tough. Plus the whole concept of mushrooms powering the ship.... The weird Klingons it just didn't feel like Star Trek and it was very bad writing if you can compare it to like next generation or DS9 or Voyager hell even Enterprise had better writing than Discovery. As far as I'm concerned I think Star Trek is better off if it didn't happen in our timeline but instead happened in a alternate universe.
I’ll say, there are even more changes to the Klingon look. In TMP they gained ridges, at that point all the ridges looked the same, and extended from the nose to the back of the head, all the Klingons looked balding, and it’s all just a single row of ridges down the middle. Then for the other films the ridges no longer extend over the nose, and while some go around the head (like General Chang), they’re all different, and they occupy more of the forehead. After that, in TNG, the ridges stayed much like the movies, but they added back in the ridges over the nose. That’s at least one big and one small change in the ridges after the first big one that added them in.
To be honest, the people who are claiming that the final episode of Lower Decks erases Discovery over the Klingons becoming Disco era versions forget about how dimensions work in Star Trek. It's been stated before, if people want to get canonical, is dimensions about time and space. That's why we were able to see the Beagle, which was using a dimensional drive with a crew that was from ST: Enterprise era. The last Schrödinger wave before it was fixed by Mariner turned the crew of the lead Klingon ship into Proto-Klingons. Does this mean the prehistoric versions of Klingons was erased like anti-Discovery claims happened to the Disco era? No on both counts. It was more like a nod to the Disco era Klingons than anything else.
As a Zelda fan the timeline is a mess. The best thing to do is enjoy each game and what they bring. Wind Waker taught is the dangers of nostalgia damning the future, Breath of the Wild gave us more freedom, twilight princess for furries, and Echoes of Wisdom lets us play as Zelda.
Like many toxic Christians try to make God small, these toxic fans try to make Star Trek small to fit their viewpoints. You nailed it Jesse🖖🏽I believe Star Trek is aspirational and each generation of Trek writers and actors will add to this aspirational vision of Star Trek. LLAP
@karki5376 The Pegasus. He's charged in the same trial along with Admiral Pressman. But there's a throwaway line from Picard along the lines of "but I'm sure they'll let you off since you're cooperating". We never hear about it again.
My favorite part of this Lower Decks "controversy" is that the Disco Klingons appearing means (to them) that it's not in the same universe, but the Galaxy class and all the other ships appearing doesn't mean the same thing. Thank you for bringing up Gene Roddenberry's always changing idea of what Star Trek is. He originally considered rebooting Star Trek completely with TNG instead of keeping TOS in continuity. They also hold him up as a saint when he was anything but.
Are you that terrified to engage with a work of fiction without the weight of nerd history behind it? Do you really need your wiki security blanket that badly?
@ninegearcrow Coming from the one getting all mad and belittling in the TH-cam comments of a video about Star Trek because someone doesn't want to watch your made up space show.
@@ninegearcrow I think its secret hideout who are too terrified to write a work of fiction without the weight of nerd history behind it. If these nuTrek shows had never claimed to be Star Trek in the first place they might have been received as reasonably interesting generic scifi. If these nuTrek characters had never claimed to be our beloved icons they could have been judged on their own merit. Team nuTrek should go away and make something original and their own and stop corrupting other peoples universes.
As I like to say: "It's all canon, even the things you don't like!" _That_ was how LDS does it. That's why they get to throw all the TAS stuff in there, haha.
It’s a interesting point now I’m no right winger but am a person who loves world building and in world building consistency is key. Ignoring that a lot of people also value world building in especially sci if and fantasy works is just in my opinion ignorant
Personally, I’m not a fan of the “canon doesn’t matter” take. It’s fine if you don’t care about canon, but a lot of people do-me included. I like strong internal logic and consistency in the franchises I follow (maybe an autism thing, idk). There doesn’t need to be one “arbiter of canon,” but writers should do their best to respect it. Expanding canon is fine, as long as it builds on what’s already there. That said, I agree that right-wing groups often weaponize the idea of canon against anything they label as "woke."
I'll second this. If you tell an incredibly compelling story (i.e. what Meyer and Bennett crafted in Wrath of Khan) I can get over playing a little loose with the details, canon nudged aside for the sake of telling a good story. But I like lore, I like art direction, I like the sense of a history in a universe like Star Trek. I watch it because it's not Star Wars and not other properties. When you disregard the confines of what even separates one IP from another, I say "what's the point then?"
Well, as a long time comic fan, I do like that all the stories told in a 'shared universe' try to keep some form of continuity. Sure, sometimes you may have to explain away why The Avengers aren't fighting Magneto, who has just threatened the entire world with an EMP, but that isn't really a violation of canon. If you want to tell a story that drastically rewrites canon, then perhaps its better to tell in in another 'universe' ('Quantum Realities' do allow for that). The perfect comic book example of this is Marvel's old "Ultimate Universe", which was a re-imagining of the Marvel Comic Universe, but as it were started in Modern Times. Sometimes they told excellent stories in that setting (Everything Ultimate Spider-Man related), sometimes stories full of WTF (Quicksilver and Scarlet Witch being 'Cersie and Jamie', Hulk being a cannibal), but I was okay with anything they did, because my 'Real' Marvel Comic Universe still existed. I agree though, that joke in Lower Decks was funny, but of course it doesn't De-canonize Discovery. I don't consider myself a 'toxic fan', but no, I don't like Discovery (quit early in season 2, but thanks to this channel and others kept up with what was going on). I do love Lower Decks though, and to show that support I've bought every season when it goes on sale (and actually paid for P+ again, and ONLY watched season 3 of Picard, then quit as soon as it was over; nothing shows how you feel better than cash to the producers 🙂)
Bravo, Jessie - that was so eloquently put. I’m being a bit basic about a very complex subject here, but it’s ancient tribal behaviour. Institutions/Leaderships were created to exploit the fear of the masses to anything that looked/sounded/thought differently. In the 21st Century, it would be nice to think that differences could be discussed calmly, intelligently and respectfully, but while those ancient behaviours still persist and whilst a powerful minority still manipulates the masses, we as a Global community will never be on the same page
9:48 There wasn't even an established time period when TOS took place during TOS. In "Space Seed" they talk about being 200 years after the late 20th century, while in "The Squire of Gothos" they talk about being 900 years after the early 19th century.
I've been really into Dragon Age Veilguard (genuinely a good game. I am not sorry, it's good.) recently as well as Ben 10 (including the reboot, which definitely had bad episodes but was overall fun and had some really good elements) and Digimon (all parts included, even tri and the reboot 2020 series) and I've just been so exhausted recently by fandom takes. I get that not everyone likes certain media but it's just annoying when you are a fan of something and genuinely get a lot of enjoyment out of it and then 90% of fan discourse is about how it should be memory holed from reality or made noncanon and treated as never happening at all. It feels like there's something wrong with me for liking these and... i don't know, I've got enough problems that deriving joy from the media I consume should not be among them. It shouldn't feel like a problem that i like things and am genuinely interested in and having fun with them. Sorry, i know this isn't star trek related or anything. Im just going through a bit of a depressed period for a lot of reasons.
This is why I stopped interacting with fandoms, mostly. I just enjoy my media on my level and don't bother sharing. The Doctor Who and Star Trek fandoms can get so toxic in so many spaces, so many "fans" acting contrary to the lessons and values that are espoused in the source material, and people getting mad because the writers will use real world inspiration to tell a relevant story but all the fans ever want is just reheated leftovers from yesteryear, never any new stories. And then I wandered into the Star Wars fandom by mistake and oh wow, it's so surprising how weirdly authoritarian they can get when their biggest heroes were literally inspired by real world anti-authoritarian movements. I'm glad to hear something good about Veilguard. I got lost and never finished Inquisition, but everything I've heard about Veilguard, I like. Even the troglodytes who complain about it just keep making it sound more appealing to me.
I've been alive long enough to have lived through a lot of iteration of star trek, and usually there is hue and cry as they are airing...give it ten or twenty years and then we can see whether a show is 'good' or not, let alone canon. 😉 I have read a lot of fanfiction in my day and have to say canon is rarely a consideration on whether I like something or not. I'm that person. There is no god on high for how I enjoy any fandom I might be in.
I saw someone try to claim that soverign class ships dont exist anymore because the Cerritos turns into a Soverign class for a bit in the finale. I fear media literacy is dead
David Gerrold has told in interviews about Star Trek Canon that at one point Gene Roddenberry was loath to give pay raises to his staff. He liked instead to give people more glamorous positions instead. At one point he put Richard Arnold in charge canon for Star Trek comics and books and with a few exceptions ruled that roost until Roddenberry died and Arnold was subsequently fired. Don’t believe me? Look for any interviews with Peter David about his time writing Star Trek comics and he’ll tell you some head scratching stories about what was and wasn’t considered canon under Arnold’s reign for Star Trek at DC Comics.
Back when Star Wars Legends was a thing, I believe it was Leland Chee who said that was and wasn't canon was something every fan should come to on their own. Wisest thing I ever heard anyone say about fans. And Jessie, if you do ever write for Trek, and I'd love it if you did, can I ask for more extra-galactic stuff? All the weird extra-galactic races from TOS (and the machines from Picard) fill me with a such sense of cosmic wonder and dread. It's awesome. Also more Tendi.
Great video. There have always been fans in Trek who felt entitled to have their favorite version go on forever and hated the latest iteration--some TOS fans absolutely hated TNG and would clutter up Usenet newsgroups demanding that the new show end and have a new TOS series replace it--but the online discourse has gotten so much worse lately.
Holding cannon up so much always bothers me, like we are arguing about what happened in a story while the world is falling apart, like a distraction, not only from the world but also viewing the work as a story with meaning rather than just entertainment.
I agree completely. (Though I still think you're underestimating what they're doing with the Gorn on Strange New Worlds. I really think what we're seeing is Starfleet's slow burn realization that they're NOT just monsters. We're just still in the early parts of that story.)
I think good way to see it is that we should use canon as a tool rather than a bible whose teachings must be followed blindly. Much of the best star trek we have was a result of changing the formula and in effect altering canon. Every show has done that to an extent, and there are always people who bristle at the changes; some people hated DS9 when it aired, but now its a beloved part of the classical era of Star Trek. Canon is important to telling a consistent and developed story(14:3314:43) but if canon becomes a tool to tie down the kind of stories we can tell then its time to move beyond what has been established.
It is almost impossible for a canon to tie down a story it’s is simply world building and I feel like people forget that world building is also a important part of a lot of franchises
Totally agree. I think it's all about control, they want their version of the story to be seen as the "accurate, real, better" version. From what I've seen, these kinds of toxic fans want a character to project onto (or in some cases the original creator), and that character needs to be 'respected' (which means literally nothing can be done to that character that they dislike). And if anything gets in the way of their projection, like main characters being 'too diverse' for them or the story going in a direction they don't like, they get really upset about it. Like, it's really weird being in the Pokemon anime fandom and seeing grown men get super upset because forever 10 year old Ash Ketchum was "disrespected" lol. They really need to learn about headcanons, start writing fanfic, and learn that there can be many ways to interpret and enjoy a story. I project on to characters all the time too and think about ways the story could've been written better. But like, you have to accept that the way you see things is different from how other people see it, and different from the actual canon too. It's so much more fun when you participate in fandom by not taking it too seriously.
They honestly should have retired Ash Ketchum sooner, the Pokémon anime would have work better with a new protagonist each generation instead of the same forever 10 year old making the same mistakes over and over again. Pokémon has the weirdest nostalgia hot takes, genoners did get the games as glitchy as the original ones now.
@@casualcraftman1599 I do think it would have been better story-wise, but I can never think of a point that would've been best to retire Ash because there's things I love from each part of his journey lol. Probably would've helped with the toxic fans if he was retired sooner though. Horizons is great, I love Liko and all the new characters and they're doing fun stuff with the story!
I wish more people would consider the Literary Agent Hypothesis with regards to continuing fiction. The story you see is never to be taken literally, but always as an account provided to the "agent" assembling that account based on the events as they happened. As a result, no two accounts will ever mesh flawlessly - various people describe the same event differently. Transcription mistakes happen. Some testimonies are vague and indecisive - the writer of the account must use their best judgement. People become too wrapped up in their imaginary worlds being real - they want flawless and non-contradictory continuity because it allows them to maintain the spell the fiction has over them. But real life is not that flawless and without contradiction - never mind a story.
I would phrase it "canon doesn't matter THAT MUCH" you beautifully explained when canon is important. I can't say I'm surprised that people start attacking Discovery the moment Star trek introduces different realities.
This was a non-issue for me. I saw the TNG Klingons get changed into DISCO Klingons and I laughed. It was a gag and me laughing was the point of it. With so many people across time contributing to the lore, the established canon's bound to have gaping holes. I'm fine with a loose canon (bad pun, sorry), mostly, especially if there's a great reason to poke another hole in it. The TNG Trill did not previously look like DS9's Jadzia Dax, or have her society's ethics, but that alteration to the canon made it better. TOS Spock and Christine Chapel did not previously have a relationship, but SNW needed to explore a younger Spock. That alteration to the canon enriched it. TOS Klingons (USSR Allegory) are not TNG Klingons (Samurai in Space with complex political and familial relationships). That alteration to the canon... you get the picture. Canon makes the work familiar, sets up expectations (Starfleet, the Exploratory Science Navy). But it can also be imprisoning (convoluted explanations as to why Spock never mentions his adopted and half-siblings; greater difficulty setting epic stories concurrent with certain eras in Trek, "because the Enterprise would have been involved in a crisis that big" etc. The shifting dates of the Eugenics Wars forcing Khan's place on the timeline to make no sense). The rule ought to be: if it ain't broke (but you can make it better), consider breaking it.
I really liked this. Canon can be cool, but it's only ever what we make of it. It's all fiction, and I get very frustrated when people start treating fiction like it's real.
It is funny to me that people claim forced diversity on the show that in the ORIGINAL series had a Russian character during the cold war, a mixed main character during the civil rights era, a woc character again Civil rights era, an actor who was placed as a child in an American concentration camp. But sure trek is just getting sjw now.
Those idiots crumble when you point out they will call it woke if it premiered today. The most hilarious crumble was with the denial about they will call Toph woke if the Avatar The Last Airbender premiered now.
My headcanon of the Klingons is that during the century between ENT and DSC, they tried to compensate the Augment virus with genetic and plastic surgery, both of which they are known to master. But being Klingons, they went way overboard with it. Not only their bodies, they overworked their gear and ships as well. The Empire was breaking apart while the Houses competed with their outward Klingon-ness. Only when L'rell took control, they went to the other end with austerity. It was the Klingon heart and soul that mattered, body was considered only a shell. I can also see the appearance of the DSC Klingons as a theatrical storytelling choice. The Discovery crew saw them as savage, murderous, untrustworthy monsters, and with the new look we the audience did so too. Not the cheerful biker vikings from the earlier series, that we knew and loved no matter how much they talked about drinking blood and eating hearts. Only when the crew began to see them as people and a culture, they began turning into the familiar type of Klingons.
About those Klingons... When I was a child and then a teenager, I watched TNG, DS9, VOY... Those Klingons were "correct" to me. My first confrontation with TOS era Klingons was in that DS9 episode when they travel back in time to the TOS Tribble episode. They didn't explain why they looked different. Worf stated that it's not something they talk about - perfect in-universe dismissal in my opinion - and obviously IRL the reason is that budgets and technology changed so they were able to make slightly more alien looking Klingons in TNG and beyond. Then came Discovery. Between TNG, DS9 and VOY I had enjoyed 21 seasons of "TNG era" Klingons. My first reaction to the Discovery Klingons was like "what the hell is this???" But then I figured... Sure, if the creators of Star Trek in the 1960s had the technology and the budget to make Klingons look like this - maybe they would have. In the end, what does it matter what they look like? I mean, the uniforms keep changing too. And they totally changed the appearance of the Trill as well, probably because they wanted Jadzia Dax to be pretty. Nobody batted an eye at that change from "canon". Probably because those Trek bro canonheads like to look at Jadzia as well. :D
People only care about continuity when it's a change they don't like. If they like it, it's improvement. These some haters are not claiming parts of the Next Generation are out of continuity because LD reminded us of the feral ferengi inconsistency or the change in appearance of the trill.
I think your argument is reasonable and accurate but I don't think there's any point to arguing facts. I was watching a video about arguing with the Alt.Right which pointed out the futility of arguing on the basis of "facts". The real issue is a clash of values. So the video suggested that the best basis is to say, "my core values include tolerance towards other people and a desire for inclusion in the work place". That's the starting point, because then these "toxic" fans would be put in the difficult position of saying something like, "I believe in excluding people"
I think an interesting layer to the canon discussion is degree in which a person has a parasocial relationship with the characters and world. If you see Star Trek as an adventure story with social commentary, the rules don’t matter as long as it is good. However, if Star Trek is the home of your favorite characters, who in your heart are people you care about even if you know they aren’t real, it matters a lot whether they behave consistently or live in a world where things “the real them” do matters. There is an argument to be made about an appeal to authority, but I think it is relationship not just being right which is at the heart of the matter.
You're correct about why many hated Discovery. For the rest of us who actually were happy to see characters other than cis white dudes, some of its plot, character and tone choices were awful.
People get actual history wrong all the time. I extend that latitude to fictional worlds as well. I’m far more bothered by a show being trite or tedious than by any canon/continuity niggles.
I really struggled with Discovery when it aired. I might give another go at some point but there is no need to wipe it just because I didn’t like it, it has value to other people and that’s more than enough reason to keep it around.
I don't really like Enterprise because it felt like they were using "sexy" to replace good writing. But I don't care that it exists, and I would never tell someone not to like it. But I'm not involved in any fandoms because of toxicity.
Such a great take on fandom and canon! I would only add that to some degree the fundamentalism of fandom is inevitable and that rigidity is quite different from the job of the creators/writers/producers, which is to invent. I think the solution is yours, to keep reminding people to focus on the themes that unite a narrative over time and media rather than the different executions.
The way people treat canon seems to me, kinda like how you treat a legal document or a contract. Trying to find any and all clause or loophole no matter how obscure or insignificant to set a precedent for, why you don't like the inclusion of certain element. And the question i always ask is "is this really going to matter to anyone?". Most people haven't read all the canon works, so they probably doesn't know all the rules of canon and or doesn't care that much. At the end of the day most people are going to care more about a good story and compelling themes, than whether or not it adheres to some insular idea of canon. Its a guideline not a binding contract.
It takes a truly special kind of media illiteracy to watch or at least attempt to watch a show like Star Trek: Lower Decks whose entire mission statement is "all of Star Trek is valid, even the weird shit that you hate like 40 foot tall Spocks and the dumpy blue Orions from TAS" and then turn around and think it would de-canonize anything.
The way that people mis-use the word "canon" just annoys me. People nowadays use "canon", when what they really mean is "continuity". I have been pretty outspoken in discussing this in the Tolkien fandom.
Oh wow, thanks for that word! It does fit better to most of the discussions.
Yeah, people use retcon but not the con'.
If you ask me, continuity is a subset of canon that refers to the events of a story or series, while canon is broader and is about what is "True" in a particular setting or story and that something can fall into both categories and what word you use depends on what context you are talking about.
So, for example, Boimler growing beard is continuity, while him having one is canon. Or when a story makes a call back to something that happens earlier is continuity, while the event being called back to is canon.
Absolutely.
@@Crazael You can use words however you like. But Canon is a legal term, used within IP and copyright law. Continuity doesn't, but it has an established meaning.
Canon is a tool, not a straitjacket.
Personal favorite of the show poking fun of cannon was in DS9 timetravel episode where O'Brain asks Worf why Klingons look different and his reply was "We do not like to talk about it"
That was fun, though I think it would have also been funny if they had Michael Dorn in his normal makeup during 24th century scenes and in TOS Klingon makeup when in the 23rd century and just never comment on it.
@@emilymarriott5927 It would have been great.
I was always bummed Enterprise actually tried to explain it.
@@emilymarriott5927 that would have been seriously funny. oh, now he looks this way.
in the crossover between SNW and LD, they had a similar problem. style, animation, etc. and I thought the twist, that they felt 2D in the end, when drinking the orion drink was hilarious.
@@seamusburke639 Yeah, it was Star Trek's "midichlorian" moment.
When I saw the bit where the Klingons, and their ship changed to resemble the discovery designs, I thought "Oh what a silly joke!". Because that's what it was, because Lower Decks was a madcap animated Sitcom. When I later discovered the "DIscovery erased from Canon" discourse, I was so confused. Do people not understand what genre Lower Decks exists in?
I laughed when I found out that people were actually taking that seriously. It's even more ridiculous than taking Worf's "We do not talk about it with outsiders" comment seriously.
It's weird because from what I saw, the "toxic fandom" hated Lower Decks just as much as Discovery for most of the same reasons, including its questionable canonicity.
And really, there couldn't have been a bigger middle finger to the canon obsessives than the Lower Decks series finale, which really just tells me that 99% of the people trying to make this argument didn't watch it. They probably just saw a thumbnail with a screenshot on Twitter and decided "That's my truth now!"
I love Doctor Who because it's the only property that I can pull out the "Doctor Who doesn't have an official canon, shut up" line for when dealing with the outrage merchants saying thing XYZ isn't canon.
"My dear doctor, it's all canon.
Even the contradictions?
ESPECIALLY the contradictions."
All that matters in an episode is what the show is trying to say. Every word, every event, to me, it's all canon. In the context of all episode, that episode "really" happened.
ESPECIALLY THE CONTRADICTIONS
The show said out loud that the anomaly was a time thing as well as a multiverse thing. The gag is Disco Klingons = Past. If they had done the same visual gag with TOS Klingons we would not be saying TOS isn’t canon anymore, mfers are just being willfully obtuse
As someone who wrote a book about Star Trek: The Animated series I can say canon has never ever never been an issue! 😉
Mike McMahan replied to me on Bluesky confirming it was nothing more than a fun gag.
Because of this, Ill be honest, I thank you for this comment since I like this.
Also, the Disco Klingons to me ARE canon, I just call them Prototype Klingons.
Mainly to me because from Discovery, they always looked like that in their old phase, yet they would evolve into the later one we all know from Next Generations.
Silly Toxic Fandom Star Trekian fans dont take a franchise too seriously cause then you end up not getting out of it alive. XD
You know what, Im glad Im getting into Star Trek BECAUSE OF THE SILLY STUFF here. ;)
Thank you Lower Decks for getting me properly into Star Trek like Doctor Who! :)
maybe a reason people are clinging to canon is, that they formed a way of looking at for example a show and dont want to challenge that this might not have been a universal experience. Especially since their takes are often very teenage formed
I think it would be fun to see a Klingon crew with a mix of TOS, TNG, and DISCO Klingons.
@@emilymarriott5927 given they showed a mix of Romulans, I was really hoping for the same for the Klingons.
Unless someone tells the story otherwise, the Albino from DS9 will always be a Disco-style klingon to me, retroactively. Not having there be a direct connection was always a bit of a missed opportunity for me!
Dnd't ep1s2 of SNW did that with at lieast Disco and TNG Klingons? I know they went back to the TNG makeup for budget reasons but you still see some Disco Klingons. Personally I just love the idea of disco Klingons being a different ethnicity.
@@BravoOneCharlie I don't remember. I'll have to go back and rewatch.
@@TheTrueOrionoh my gosh never thought of that! 😂😂😂 The thing is these Hollywood people don't memorise every minute of every episode like some trek fans have so they don't really think of the lesser plots and episodes.
"Never let canon get in the way of a good story" I don't recall when I first came across that sentiment, but I definitely took it to heart.
It's never about canon with them. It's about the fact that they never really watched Star Trek, even when the series shouted in their face.
What, socialist messaging in my OG Star Trek? It's more likely than you'd think
The part at 7:30 is really it. Some people overly-fixate on really tiny production details, and then spin whole yarns about their significance. While often outright, or nearly, ignoring the actual story at hand. It honestly reminds me of people who study the Bible for "hidden patterns/messages".
Fandom is the modern religion
I remember watching a YT video of guys that do in-depth videos on Star Trek ships and there was one interview they had with Rick Sternbach re: Voyager. In fandom conversations they always talk about the rotating nacelles and how that could tie into the warp limitations from "Force of Nature", but Rick basically said that was because Rick Berman and others wanted a cool thing for the ship to do during the SFX sequences so he came up with that...that's the story. Then when fans keep pressing these guys who, at the end of the day are artists, not naval architects, I can tell they're screaming inside their head for those folks to change the subject.
@@Trekpanther You must surely be talking about Trekyards. I really like those guys, they're really passionate, but man do they hyperfixate on the most obscure detail in everything. There's a place for that of course, but sometimes they can take it too far.
Always baffled by the people who treat a fandom as a religion.
But then again, I'm fairly baffled by people who treat *_religion_* as a religion, too.
Also, hi Kaitlyn. Hope you're well!
The incessant crybabies will never stop
Their whole personality is built on hate, they can't do anything else
the dragon age fandom really need to watch this video right now
To quote Garak, "it's all true"
Even the lies? "Especially the lies"
especially the contradictions!
Cannon doesn't matter unless it's pointed at you. Beyond certain basic fundamentals of Star Trek it only matters as being a story about how the future could be or how it maybe should be. What does matter to me is that people who want ST: Disc to be non cannon essentially due to its diversity. It says a lot about who they are in real life.
This isn't a one off movie. This is an established universe.
Ok blue sky I posted:
---
"Lower Decks confirms DIS is in an alternate universe!"
Uhm, no, it doesn't. It confirms that Discovery looking Klingons also exist in an alternate universe, just like apparently infinite Harry Kim's and Klingon Barges and identical looking birds of prey.
Media literacy, babes.
---
And Mike Mc-fucking-Mahan himself liked it so I'm calling that case closed.
The Gorn thing - there were seeds of “what if they’re people” in the last episode in Pike’s response to the situation
Lower Decks ens with the creation of an inter-reality portal, effectively making *everything* canon. Yet somehow making *everything* canon excludes Discovery. Make it make sense.
Discovery being removed from canon would get rid of Grudge. I'll always want to keep ALL of Discovery for Grudge.
Who's Grudge?
@@suezcontours6653 A cat in the later seasons of Discovery.
@@suezcontours6653 biiiiiig fluffy cat from season 3 onwards
@@ZoeMalDoran She's a Queen
@ indeed she is :) Queen kitty
It's never, ever about cannon. It's about vibes. The borg changed wildly between Q Who and First Contact, but no one cared, because FC was a good movie, and the borg retained the same narrative function,: "seemingly unstoppable alien threat". If you drill down deep enough, complaints about "not respecting the canon" are just a front for, "this doesn't feel like Star Trek.".
While FC was a good movie, I hated the Borg queen. They ruined space-zombies by turning them into a stereotypical comic book villain with personality.
Absolutely 100% agree. I have no problem with the Klingons in Discovery different per se, it's that they're aesthetically wrong and out of place in star trek. A fine design for a different show, but they stick out like sore thumbs i star trek. Also slightly resent the implication that people who don't like Discovery is because of wokeness. Star Trek has always been woke, or at least tried to be, its that Discovery did it all POORLY, just like everything else discovery did wrong. Its not about canonicity, its about substandard scifi storytelling, and characterizations written by people who have no appreciation for scifi.
Basically, Discovery simply is a crappy show, and no amount of rationalization can fiz that. The just need better writers and showrunners, full stop.
@ I think the design fits fine into Star Trek. My question is, if you've changed their appearance, and their culture, and just their overall vibe, why do they have to be Klingons at all? They could have just been a completely new species, and it would have worked way better. But then you couldn't hype the "War with the Klingons" thing. Like a lot of modern Star Trek, it seems motivated by a cynical desire to draw in nostalgic fans, instead of just telling a good story and letting it speak for itself. It's insulting.
I would most definitely not say that "no one cared" about the changes with the Borg between TNG and First Contact. I think part of it is that in the mid-90s we were still in an era where people just understood that things change. TNG was a shot. First Contact was a movie. Of course, they might get an update because they can. But I've heard countless people bitch about how they changed the Borg in FC and into particularly Voyager.
@@rexmundi2986 I mean, my view on Klingons in discovery is basically "oh, here are some different Klingons over there that look different for some reason" and move on. I think Discovery was more hampered by, as Jessie pointed out, pressures around its production. Namely it being a shorter, serialized show made exclusively for streaming. With few exceptions, Star Trek has largely been episodic and while plot lines can run through series it isn't usually just "here are 10 episodes in a row that are all the same story." It's clear, at least to begin with, they felt that these short 10-episode seasons needed to be serialized. Perhaps they are finally figuring out with shows like SNW and LD that they don't have to be. But that is a growing pain Discovery had to live with.
I think the Gorn as shown in Strange New Worlds actually supports the original series storyline. We never get much exposition or backstory in that episode other than, the Federation and the Gorn are having brushfire wars over colonies, and because of the events of the episode, the Gorn eventually become Federation allies. Strange New Worlds provides context to that conflict. "Why are the Federation and the Gorn going to war?" the primary conflict is a difference of how the two cultures interact with one another. It's a difference that can be overcome, but portraying the interaction with fear, shows why it requires the TOS Episode to open dialogue.
Personally, I wish that people will eventually go back to a more mythic approach of how we view stories. That the contradictions are irrelevant. Canon is in my opinion the result of the printing press and intellectual properties at the expense of oral traditions in which each retelling only had to be true to itself and not some bigger context.
If it doesn't square with canon, yes it does, Q did it. This is especially true in any other non-affiliated IP.
The Discovery haters fall into two basic categories: bigots who watch Star Trek for the militaristic starship class designations, technobabble, and space battles while totally missing its message, and pedantic canon-humpers who get irrationally angry whenever something doesn't conform to their exact idea of what "the rules" are. They're kind of like religious fundamentalists.They both infuriate me for different reasons.
I do think DISCO had issues on it's own, particularly season 3. A lot of times it felt like they were rushing their story to wrap things up before the season ended.
Hyper fixating on canon is ridiculous when you realize it's an argument about what's real, when none of it is real
If the creators can't commit to the reality of their story, why should we be expected to care?
oaf-77 gets it.
@oaf-77 I don't dispute that, but that's more an issue of consistency and to a certain extent continuity, which is a separate idea from something like like canon. For example there are continuity issues between say Diamonds are Forever and For Your Eyes Only in the Bond series, but they're both canon with each other, whereas Never Say Never Again is not
Jesse I've been a Star Trek fan since the 1960s I'm telling you right now that's not the reason why we don't like Discovery.
The first couple of seasons of Discovery there was no crew dynamic. Michael Burnham was the boss and if you didn't like it... Tough.
Plus the whole concept of mushrooms powering the ship.... The weird Klingons it just didn't feel like Star Trek and it was very bad writing if you can compare it to like next generation or DS9 or Voyager hell even Enterprise had better writing than Discovery.
As far as I'm concerned I think Star Trek is better off if it didn't happen in our timeline but instead happened in a alternate universe.
I’ll say, there are even more changes to the Klingon look.
In TMP they gained ridges, at that point all the ridges looked the same, and extended from the nose to the back of the head, all the Klingons looked balding, and it’s all just a single row of ridges down the middle.
Then for the other films the ridges no longer extend over the nose, and while some go around the head (like General Chang), they’re all different, and they occupy more of the forehead.
After that, in TNG, the ridges stayed much like the movies, but they added back in the ridges over the nose.
That’s at least one big and one small change in the ridges after the first big one that added them in.
These toxic fans really do need to "get a life".
We did. That’s why Trek is failing. We aren’t buying the bullshit anymore
@@johnnemesh5459 Amazing. Every word in that comment was wrong.
To be honest, the people who are claiming that the final episode of Lower Decks erases Discovery over the Klingons becoming Disco era versions forget about how dimensions work in Star Trek.
It's been stated before, if people want to get canonical, is dimensions about time and space. That's why we were able to see the Beagle, which was using a dimensional drive with a crew that was from ST: Enterprise era.
The last Schrödinger wave before it was fixed by Mariner turned the crew of the lead Klingon ship into Proto-Klingons. Does this mean the prehistoric versions of Klingons was erased like anti-Discovery claims happened to the Disco era? No on both counts.
It was more like a nod to the Disco era Klingons than anything else.
I have been avoiding learning about this, but now I'm ready to hear what it's about from a trusted creator
Jessie, thank-you for doing this
As a Zelda fan the timeline is a mess. The best thing to do is enjoy each game and what they bring. Wind Waker taught is the dangers of nostalgia damning the future, Breath of the Wild gave us more freedom, twilight princess for furries, and Echoes of Wisdom lets us play as Zelda.
Like many toxic Christians try to make God small, these toxic fans try to make Star Trek small to fit their viewpoints. You nailed it Jesse🖖🏽I believe Star Trek is aspirational and each generation of Trek writers and actors will add to this aspirational vision of Star Trek. LLAP
It's weird that Next Generation had an episode ended with Riker on trial for violating a peace treaty and never addressed it again.
Which one?
@karki5376 The Pegasus. He's charged in the same trial along with Admiral Pressman. But there's a throwaway line from Picard along the lines of "but I'm sure they'll let you off since you're cooperating". We never hear about it again.
@karki5376”The Pegasus”
@@kaitlyn__LRight? That one episode would’ve been a season long arc on any other show.
My favorite part of this Lower Decks "controversy" is that the Disco Klingons appearing means (to them) that it's not in the same universe, but the Galaxy class and all the other ships appearing doesn't mean the same thing. Thank you for bringing up Gene Roddenberry's always changing idea of what Star Trek is. He originally considered rebooting Star Trek completely with TNG instead of keeping TOS in continuity. They also hold him up as a saint when he was anything but.
I don’t think he’s a saint, but he did have a vision
"Canon doesn't matter" Then why should I be invested?😂
Are you that terrified to engage with a work of fiction without the weight of nerd history behind it? Do you really need your wiki security blanket that badly?
@ninegearcrow Coming from the one getting all mad and belittling in the TH-cam comments of a video about Star Trek because someone doesn't want to watch your made up space show.
@ninegearcrow yes.
@@ninegearcrow I think its secret hideout who are too terrified to write a work of fiction without the weight of nerd history behind it. If these nuTrek shows had never claimed to be Star Trek in the first place they might have been received as reasonably interesting generic scifi. If these nuTrek characters had never claimed to be our beloved icons they could have been judged on their own merit. Team nuTrek should go away and make something original and their own and stop corrupting other peoples universes.
Probably because you like the story.
As I like to say: "It's all canon, even the things you don't like!" _That_ was how LDS does it. That's why they get to throw all the TAS stuff in there, haha.
Right wing grifters could never when it comes to knowing what Star Trek is actually about. Great video.
It’s a interesting point now I’m no right winger but am a person who loves world building and in world building consistency is key. Ignoring that a lot of people also value world building in especially sci if and fantasy works is just in my opinion ignorant
As a comic book reader, watching this video resonates with me in a way that very few people I talked to have specially when it comes to adaptations
Personally, I’m not a fan of the “canon doesn’t matter” take. It’s fine if you don’t care about canon, but a lot of people do-me included. I like strong internal logic and consistency in the franchises I follow (maybe an autism thing, idk).
There doesn’t need to be one “arbiter of canon,” but writers should do their best to respect it. Expanding canon is fine, as long as it builds on what’s already there.
That said, I agree that right-wing groups often weaponize the idea of canon against anything they label as "woke."
I'll second this. If you tell an incredibly compelling story (i.e. what Meyer and Bennett crafted in Wrath of Khan) I can get over playing a little loose with the details, canon nudged aside for the sake of telling a good story. But I like lore, I like art direction, I like the sense of a history in a universe like Star Trek. I watch it because it's not Star Wars and not other properties. When you disregard the confines of what even separates one IP from another, I say "what's the point then?"
Well, as a long time comic fan, I do like that all the stories told in a 'shared universe' try to keep some form of continuity.
Sure, sometimes you may have to explain away why The Avengers aren't fighting Magneto, who has just threatened the entire world with an EMP, but that isn't really a violation of canon.
If you want to tell a story that drastically rewrites canon, then perhaps its better to tell in in another 'universe' ('Quantum Realities' do allow for that).
The perfect comic book example of this is Marvel's old "Ultimate Universe", which was a re-imagining of the Marvel Comic Universe, but as it were started in Modern Times.
Sometimes they told excellent stories in that setting (Everything Ultimate Spider-Man related), sometimes stories full of WTF (Quicksilver and Scarlet Witch being 'Cersie and Jamie', Hulk being a cannibal), but I was okay with anything they did, because my 'Real' Marvel Comic Universe still existed.
I agree though, that joke in Lower Decks was funny, but of course it doesn't De-canonize Discovery.
I don't consider myself a 'toxic fan', but no, I don't like Discovery (quit early in season 2, but thanks to this channel and others kept up with what was going on). I do love Lower Decks though, and to show that support I've bought every season when it goes on sale (and actually paid for P+ again, and ONLY watched season 3 of Picard, then quit as soon as it was over; nothing shows how you feel better than cash to the producers 🙂)
Bravo, Jessie - that was so eloquently put. I’m being a bit basic about a very complex subject here, but it’s ancient tribal behaviour. Institutions/Leaderships were created to exploit the fear of the masses to anything that looked/sounded/thought differently.
In the 21st Century, it would be nice to think that differences could be discussed calmly, intelligently and respectfully, but while those ancient behaviours still persist and whilst a powerful minority still manipulates the masses, we as a Global community will never be on the same page
Well said Jessie. Side note...you need some rank pips on that uniform. I suggest Lieutenant, you've earned it!
I think canon is important because there needs to be essentially a writers bible for the show, like a design document basically.
9:48 There wasn't even an established time period when TOS took place during TOS. In "Space Seed" they talk about being 200 years after the late 20th century, while in "The Squire of Gothos" they talk about being 900 years after the early 19th century.
Hi Steve! Good to see you again- WAIT! Youre not Steve Shives!!! 😯
It would be awesome if Star Trek were a consistent, coherent whole like fans want it to be. But it hasn’t been that since the second pilot.
Thank you for releasing a fun video this morning. It's a good distraction from "other stuff" happening today.
Your glasses matching the uniform is just fantastic!
I've been really into Dragon Age Veilguard (genuinely a good game. I am not sorry, it's good.) recently as well as Ben 10 (including the reboot, which definitely had bad episodes but was overall fun and had some really good elements) and Digimon (all parts included, even tri and the reboot 2020 series) and I've just been so exhausted recently by fandom takes. I get that not everyone likes certain media but it's just annoying when you are a fan of something and genuinely get a lot of enjoyment out of it and then 90% of fan discourse is about how it should be memory holed from reality or made noncanon and treated as never happening at all. It feels like there's something wrong with me for liking these and... i don't know, I've got enough problems that deriving joy from the media I consume should not be among them. It shouldn't feel like a problem that i like things and am genuinely interested in and having fun with them.
Sorry, i know this isn't star trek related or anything. Im just going through a bit of a depressed period for a lot of reasons.
This is why I stopped interacting with fandoms, mostly. I just enjoy my media on my level and don't bother sharing. The Doctor Who and Star Trek fandoms can get so toxic in so many spaces, so many "fans" acting contrary to the lessons and values that are espoused in the source material, and people getting mad because the writers will use real world inspiration to tell a relevant story but all the fans ever want is just reheated leftovers from yesteryear, never any new stories.
And then I wandered into the Star Wars fandom by mistake and oh wow, it's so surprising how weirdly authoritarian they can get when their biggest heroes were literally inspired by real world anti-authoritarian movements.
I'm glad to hear something good about Veilguard. I got lost and never finished Inquisition, but everything I've heard about Veilguard, I like. Even the troglodytes who complain about it just keep making it sound more appealing to me.
What? No Star Wars? Our fandom is more toxic than yours! Lol! Ugh, We are the right wing of sci fi....
Bye!
I've been alive long enough to have lived through a lot of iteration of star trek, and usually there is hue and cry as they are airing...give it ten or twenty years and then we can see whether a show is 'good' or not, let alone canon. 😉
I have read a lot of fanfiction in my day and have to say canon is rarely a consideration on whether I like something or not. I'm that person. There is no god on high for how I enjoy any fandom I might be in.
I saw someone try to claim that soverign class ships dont exist anymore because the Cerritos turns into a Soverign class for a bit in the finale. I fear media literacy is dead
David Gerrold has told in interviews about Star Trek Canon that at one point Gene Roddenberry was loath to give pay raises to his staff. He liked instead to give people more glamorous positions instead. At one point he put Richard Arnold in charge canon for Star Trek comics and books and with a few exceptions ruled that roost until Roddenberry died and Arnold was subsequently fired. Don’t believe me? Look for any interviews with Peter David about his time writing Star Trek comics and he’ll tell you some head scratching stories about what was and wasn’t considered canon under Arnold’s reign for Star Trek at DC Comics.
Back when Star Wars Legends was a thing, I believe it was Leland Chee who said that was and wasn't canon was something every fan should come to on their own. Wisest thing I ever heard anyone say about fans.
And Jessie, if you do ever write for Trek, and I'd love it if you did, can I ask for more extra-galactic stuff? All the weird extra-galactic races from TOS (and the machines from Picard) fill me with a such sense of cosmic wonder and dread. It's awesome. Also more Tendi.
Great video. There have always been fans in Trek who felt entitled to have their favorite version go on forever and hated the latest iteration--some TOS fans absolutely hated TNG and would clutter up Usenet newsgroups demanding that the new show end and have a new TOS series replace it--but the online discourse has gotten so much worse lately.
Holding cannon up so much always bothers me, like we are arguing about what happened in a story while the world is falling apart, like a distraction, not only from the world but also viewing the work as a story with meaning rather than just entertainment.
I agree completely. (Though I still think you're underestimating what they're doing with the Gorn on Strange New Worlds. I really think what we're seeing is Starfleet's slow burn realization that they're NOT just monsters. We're just still in the early parts of that story.)
If a show breaks cannon with another show, then the two shows don't happen in the same universe. So what ?!
I think good way to see it is that we should use canon as a tool rather than a bible whose teachings must be followed blindly. Much of the best star trek we have was a result of changing the formula and in effect altering canon. Every show has done that to an extent, and there are always people who bristle at the changes; some people hated DS9 when it aired, but now its a beloved part of the classical era of Star Trek. Canon is important to telling a consistent and developed story(14:33 14:43) but if canon becomes a tool to tie down the kind of stories we can tell then its time to move beyond what has been established.
It is almost impossible for a canon to tie down a story it’s is simply world building and I feel like people forget that world building is also a important part of a lot of franchises
Totally agree. I think it's all about control, they want their version of the story to be seen as the "accurate, real, better" version. From what I've seen, these kinds of toxic fans want a character to project onto (or in some cases the original creator), and that character needs to be 'respected' (which means literally nothing can be done to that character that they dislike). And if anything gets in the way of their projection, like main characters being 'too diverse' for them or the story going in a direction they don't like, they get really upset about it. Like, it's really weird being in the Pokemon anime fandom and seeing grown men get super upset because forever 10 year old Ash Ketchum was "disrespected" lol.
They really need to learn about headcanons, start writing fanfic, and learn that there can be many ways to interpret and enjoy a story. I project on to characters all the time too and think about ways the story could've been written better. But like, you have to accept that the way you see things is different from how other people see it, and different from the actual canon too. It's so much more fun when you participate in fandom by not taking it too seriously.
They honestly should have retired Ash Ketchum sooner, the Pokémon anime would have work better with a new protagonist each generation instead of the same forever 10 year old making the same mistakes over and over again. Pokémon has the weirdest nostalgia hot takes, genoners did get the games as glitchy as the original ones now.
@@casualcraftman1599 I do think it would have been better story-wise, but I can never think of a point that would've been best to retire Ash because there's things I love from each part of his journey lol. Probably would've helped with the toxic fans if he was retired sooner though. Horizons is great, I love Liko and all the new characters and they're doing fun stuff with the story!
I wish more people would consider the Literary Agent Hypothesis with regards to continuing fiction. The story you see is never to be taken literally, but always as an account provided to the "agent" assembling that account based on the events as they happened.
As a result, no two accounts will ever mesh flawlessly - various people describe the same event differently. Transcription mistakes happen. Some testimonies are vague and indecisive - the writer of the account must use their best judgement.
People become too wrapped up in their imaginary worlds being real - they want flawless and non-contradictory continuity because it allows them to maintain the spell the fiction has over them. But real life is not that flawless and without contradiction - never mind a story.
I would phrase it "canon doesn't matter THAT MUCH" you beautifully explained when canon is important.
I can't say I'm surprised that people start attacking Discovery the moment Star trek introduces different realities.
This was a non-issue for me. I saw the TNG Klingons get changed into DISCO Klingons and I laughed. It was a gag and me laughing was the point of it. With so many people across time contributing to the lore, the established canon's bound to have gaping holes. I'm fine with a loose canon (bad pun, sorry), mostly, especially if there's a great reason to poke another hole in it.
The TNG Trill did not previously look like DS9's Jadzia Dax, or have her society's ethics, but that alteration to the canon made it better.
TOS Spock and Christine Chapel did not previously have a relationship, but SNW needed to explore a younger Spock. That alteration to the canon enriched it.
TOS Klingons (USSR Allegory) are not TNG Klingons (Samurai in Space with complex political and familial relationships). That alteration to the canon... you get the picture.
Canon makes the work familiar, sets up expectations (Starfleet, the Exploratory Science Navy). But it can also be imprisoning (convoluted explanations as to why Spock never mentions his adopted and half-siblings; greater difficulty setting epic stories concurrent with certain eras in Trek, "because the Enterprise would have been involved in a crisis that big" etc. The shifting dates of the Eugenics Wars forcing Khan's place on the timeline to make no sense).
The rule ought to be: if it ain't broke (but you can make it better), consider breaking it.
People have been messing with Canon for as long as fanfiction has been a thing
I really liked this. Canon can be cool, but it's only ever what we make of it. It's all fiction, and I get very frustrated when people start treating fiction like it's real.
It is funny to me that people claim forced diversity on the show that in the ORIGINAL series had a Russian character during the cold war, a mixed main character during the civil rights era, a woc character again Civil rights era, an actor who was placed as a child in an American concentration camp.
But sure trek is just getting sjw now.
Those idiots crumble when you point out they will call it woke if it premiered today. The most hilarious crumble was with the denial about they will call Toph woke if the Avatar The Last Airbender premiered now.
3:02 yeah i have a hard time finding criticism of discovery that don’t include the fact that there are people in it that are not straight white men.
Canon debate is very quickly becoming the Phrenology of nerd culture.
My headcanon of the Klingons is that during the century between ENT and DSC, they tried to compensate the Augment virus with genetic and plastic surgery, both of which they are known to master. But being Klingons, they went way overboard with it. Not only their bodies, they overworked their gear and ships as well. The Empire was breaking apart while the Houses competed with their outward Klingon-ness. Only when L'rell took control, they went to the other end with austerity. It was the Klingon heart and soul that mattered, body was considered only a shell.
I can also see the appearance of the DSC Klingons as a theatrical storytelling choice. The Discovery crew saw them as savage, murderous, untrustworthy monsters, and with the new look we the audience did so too. Not the cheerful biker vikings from the earlier series, that we knew and loved no matter how much they talked about drinking blood and eating hearts. Only when the crew began to see them as people and a culture, they began turning into the familiar type of Klingons.
About those Klingons... When I was a child and then a teenager, I watched TNG, DS9, VOY... Those Klingons were "correct" to me. My first confrontation with TOS era Klingons was in that DS9 episode when they travel back in time to the TOS Tribble episode. They didn't explain why they looked different. Worf stated that it's not something they talk about - perfect in-universe dismissal in my opinion - and obviously IRL the reason is that budgets and technology changed so they were able to make slightly more alien looking Klingons in TNG and beyond.
Then came Discovery. Between TNG, DS9 and VOY I had enjoyed 21 seasons of "TNG era" Klingons. My first reaction to the Discovery Klingons was like "what the hell is this???" But then I figured... Sure, if the creators of Star Trek in the 1960s had the technology and the budget to make Klingons look like this - maybe they would have. In the end, what does it matter what they look like? I mean, the uniforms keep changing too. And they totally changed the appearance of the Trill as well, probably because they wanted Jadzia Dax to be pretty. Nobody batted an eye at that change from "canon". Probably because those Trek bro canonheads like to look at Jadzia as well. :D
People only care about continuity when it's a change they don't like. If they like it, it's improvement. These some haters are not claiming parts of the Next Generation are out of continuity because LD reminded us of the feral ferengi inconsistency or the change in appearance of the trill.
I think your argument is reasonable and accurate but I don't think there's any point to arguing facts. I was watching a video about arguing with the Alt.Right which pointed out the futility of arguing on the basis of "facts". The real issue is a clash of values. So the video suggested that the best basis is to say, "my core values include tolerance towards other people and a desire for inclusion in the work place". That's the starting point, because then these "toxic" fans would be put in the difficult position of saying something like, "I believe in excluding people"
I think an interesting layer to the canon discussion is degree in which a person has a parasocial relationship with the characters and world. If you see Star Trek as an adventure story with social commentary, the rules don’t matter as long as it is good. However, if Star Trek is the home of your favorite characters, who in your heart are people you care about even if you know they aren’t real, it matters a lot whether they behave consistently or live in a world where things “the real them” do matters. There is an argument to be made about an appeal to authority, but I think it is relationship not just being right which is at the heart of the matter.
I call it my “head cannon” and it’s what my personal favorite cannon is. I don’t require that anyone else agree! 😂
You're correct about why many hated Discovery. For the rest of us who actually were happy to see characters other than cis white dudes, some of its plot, character and tone choices were awful.
Star Trek has been "woke" since inception, Capt Kirk courting a woman of color Uhura was a big no no at the time it came out.
It's days like this where I think back to XKCD's "New" comic where it covers headcanons and headcannons.
People get actual history wrong all the time. I extend that latitude to fictional worlds as well.
I’m far more bothered by a show being trite or tedious than by any canon/continuity niggles.
Heck its not like there is a Canon temperal war that is trying to change history
I wish that in that episode LDs had also shown Klingons from TOS.
I always assumed that scene just meant there was a universe where Klingons hadn’t fully changed back yet.
I do agree with your thesis here, it’s good to work With cannon but it’s not end all be all.
All of Star Trek is canon! Including the parts that make no sense and contradicts the other stuff.
I really struggled with Discovery when it aired. I might give another go at some point but there is no need to wipe it just because I didn’t like it, it has value to other people and that’s more than enough reason to keep it around.
Didn’t expect this to be a teaser for an other work but I am looking forward to when you can talk about that other work !
weren't these the same fans who were convinced that lower decks wasn't canon because it was more goofy and animated?
Production studios don’t give a damn about canon. Only fans do and toxic fans use as a weapon.
She's back!
I don't really like Enterprise because it felt like they were using "sexy" to replace good writing. But I don't care that it exists, and I would never tell someone not to like it.
But I'm not involved in any fandoms because of toxicity.
I do think consistency over various media can be helpful with suspension of disbelief, tho.
Which books were you referring to that take place after TNG? I'd love to check them out. Also, you working on Star Trek would be AMAZING. 🖖
Such a great take on fandom and canon! I would only add that to some degree the fundamentalism of fandom is inevitable and that rigidity is quite different from the job of the creators/writers/producers, which is to invent. I think the solution is yours, to keep reminding people to focus on the themes that unite a narrative over time and media rather than the different executions.
Need to read those novels! Where can I find a good reading guide?
Its funny cause "canon" to me is "what gets an in universe article on Memory Alpha" and not "what the writer said but didnt include in the text"
I'm so glad you and Steve have talked about this
The way people treat canon seems to me, kinda like how you treat a legal document or a contract. Trying to find any and all clause or loophole no matter how obscure or insignificant to set a precedent for, why you don't like the inclusion of certain element. And the question i always ask is "is this really going to matter to anyone?". Most people haven't read all the canon works, so they probably doesn't know all the rules of canon and or doesn't care that much. At the end of the day most people are going to care more about a good story and compelling themes, than whether or not it adheres to some insular idea of canon. Its a guideline not a binding contract.