Dr. Michael Brown and Dr. Don Preston Debate Israel and Eschatology
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 28 ก.ย. 2024
- Does Romans 11:25-27 state that there will be a national turning of the Jewish people to God? Are there any OT or NT promises made to ethnic Israel that remain to be fulfilled? Watch the debate and leave your comments below. www.askdrbrown.org
Don k Preston is no joke ... he was more using the scripture to explain scripture. .... and not just pushing everything into the future saying if words have any meaning and kept repeating how this or that didnt happen .where as preston is exegeting using all scripture mr Brown is a brother and i respect him but Preston imo is more consistent and the bible makes much more sense from the preterist perspective
It sure does!
Amen. Ever since God led me to the preterist perspective I feel way more sane and in touch with what Scripture actually says
Dr. Brown, Don K. Preston here. It is clear that our debate has generated a lot of interest and discussion. I would love to have another debate to discuss the issue of the "fullness of the Gentiles" that you raised. I have had tons of private messages about this, hoping to see another debate.
What say ye?
@@mackenzie9783 your screen name is ironic
Skip it ...it's gibberish.....Preston...stop spreading this heresy...there is NO debate...your dredging up the early heresy of the Saducees
Susan - Ye are of your father the devil.
And you're an idiot
@@mackenzie9783 Amen and amen!
Dr. Brown, I see that you have produced a video attempting to refute my views on the resurrection. Please, let's debate that issue! When do you want to do that? Unfortunately, I see that you disabled comments on that video, or I would have posted this there. Come now, and let us reason together! I am ready. We can even do a formal public debate on this if you so desire! I look forward to hearing from you!
??? Which video is that?
This is what I found. Will you consider another debate with me, on the resurrection?
th-cam.com/video/K27Cj-jPQf8/w-d-xo.html
Or, as I suggested before, on the issue of a future Jerusalem Temple?
Thanks for responding! I very much look forward to hearing from you!
No clue about that video; it's not mine and I didn't put it out as such, but of course, I strongly reject your position. I'll consider the debate, but I consider your denial of a future resurrection to be heretical, so I'd be approaching it in that spirit -- if we agreed to do it.
I fully understand your position. Nonetheless, I would more than welcome a debate on the subject. Just let me know!
Merry Christmas!
Don is about to drop more truth bombs! Preterism saved my faith in humanity and God. Can’t wait for round 2! Please get a different host. Dr White is way to biased and I did not like his debate protocol.
Israel did receive her salvation through judgment. The remnant was saved during the transition period, AD 30-AD 70, and the harlot was judged for breaking her covenant with God as prophesied.
The first century AD remnant of Israel is the foundation of the body of Christ, the church, true Israel. There is neither Jew or Gentile. The wall has been broken down. There is no other way to the Father but by the Son.
promisesrkept very interesting interpretation(s); are they your own, or product of others "works" (i.e. writings, videos, speeches, etc.,)?? I'm curious to your sources.
+al karg My view is derived from Scripture. I began researching the preterist view about 10-12 years ago. I read three books that opened my eyes and led to much study: The Parousia, The Last Days According to Jesus, and The Apocalypse Code. I began applying the principle of Audience Relevance and I discovered the many Time Statements throughout the New Testament. I found the promises to Old Covenant Israel fulfilled in Jesus and His body, the New Testament church made up of Jew and Gentile.
+promisesrkept I'm always encouraged when I hear of others who through their own personal study came to the conclusion of Fulfilled Promises.
Same story here. At first, I searched to find someone who was seeing the same things I saw. Thank God for the internet. I was a FP before I even knew it was called that.
Now, I can't help but warn those who were brought up, and are still blinded, in the Futurist Fantasy. Right Understanding means Real Life for those of us on planet earth!
al karg that’s all in the Bible
Dr. Brown's hermeneutics on the fulfillment of prophecy seem to boil down to "The satisfying of my expectations supercedes what Jesus and his Apostles taught."
David Carraway IF u mean in terms of "blind allegiance" to the nation state of Israel, then....perhaps I'm in agreement with u (per case by case or....pt by pt analysis/discussion).
Lol. Exactly
@Geocentric and that's prophecy. Jesus sealed it. They come back during the tribulation as well. That's also prophecy. His 2nd coming is dependant on that. One more reason preterism is false.
You won't understand anything futuristic they taught if you're not grounded in the old testament.
Garland Jones lol
To those who wonder how God could promise that Israel remain a nation forever then judge the "children of the flesh" and bring an end to the Old Covenant age:
Peter, writing to those of the dispersion, the remnant from all twelve tribes, in the last days: "But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light" (I Peter 2:9 NKJV)
God kept His promises to Israel through the remnant in the last days of the harlot, unbelieving Old Covenant Israel. His church is the "holy nation" of God.
The 144,000 firstfruits were his virgin bride. They judged their tribesmen by sharing the QUEEN"s position of authority and reigning with Christ until all was fulfilled. It is finished! what a joy to know the truth! It sets us free! We have been RECONCILED to our father, which was the purpose of Christ's coming . It was through the eternal spirit that we were reconciled to him. Heb 9:14
promisesrkept Yes!
Amen. The promise keeper God. Hallelujah!
@@ThePatriots2012 so what does that mean for Christianity in your opinion?
Paul made clear that "all Israel" would actually be the faithful remnant:
"Isaiah also cries out concerning Israel: “Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, The remnant will be saved." (Romans 9:27 NKJV)
God saved the remnant of Israel prior to destroying the harlot, Old Covenant Israel, in AD 70.
If only all debates would be this friendly.
Daniel 12 was the final chapter on my move from Partial to Full Preterism, if you believe the Mosaic Law ended in 70AD then you have to believe the rest of the chapter and that the Resurrection also took place...
Don’t do it! Haha I know it’s 4 years later.. You can hold that fulfilled and be partial preterist. It only says some out of the graves - not all. Could be talking of the first resurrection in John 5, right?
But where do u stand now after all those years of studying?
@@Jus4kiks agreed, i dont see why taking daniel 12 and john 5 and the olivet discourse as fulfilled necessitates full preterism, i dont see the reason why i cant take the return in acts 1 and 1 thess 4 as seperate events. I see multiple kinds of ressurection in the text, a national one like in ezekial, the valley of dry bones, a spiritual one which is being born again, becoming a new creation, and a physical one such as what happened to Christ which will happen to all mankind at his return.
That was great! Both men are scholars and gentlemen. I will listen four more times to understand where Dr. Preston is coming from, as I believe and have been taught like Dr. Brown.
Alex Stewart Yes, all the early church missed that the resurrection and the Second Coming already happened. The earliest of creeds are fundamentally flawed. But luckily, we now have people who know how to allegorize verses into submission.
@@matthewervin976
That is a great methodology/rebuttal if you’re a Catholic. However, that methodology doesn’t suit so well for those of us who believe the Bible alone is God breathed/infallible and that the words of man = fallible.
@@therealjakedean3317 Amen to that
Matthew Ervin wrote, "Yes, all the early church missed that the resurrection and the Second Coming already happened."
Apparently so. Perhaps that is why they resorted to rewriting time statements, for example, "this generation" was reinterpreted to "that generation"; "last days" to "thousands of years"; "about to happen" to "when it happens it will be about to happen"; and other such silliness. Perhaps that is also why so many Christians have been duped into believing the doctrine of the 1st-century scribes and Pharisees of a future physical, earthly kingdom.
Matthew Ervin wrote, "The earliest of creeds are fundamentally flawed. But luckily, we now have people who know how to allegorize verses into submission."
Yes, too bad some of the influential, uninspired, early Christians resorted to their vivid imaginations to interpret scripture, rather than rely on the plain words of the Lord Jesus and his inspired Apostles. Remember, Jesus warned:
_"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that receiveth whomsoever I send receiveth me; and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me." -- John 13:20 KJV_
Those who reject the words of Jesus and his Apostles also reject the Father.
Dan
Don't bother with Preston. There's nothing Preston accepts from God at face value. Paul is in no wise speaking to the judgement of Israel but to the unsure salvation of those taking an arrogant view to them-"Remember the root supports you, you do not support the root," and God is ready to graft the 'broken' branches back in, because He is well able. Fear, says Paul, to those, just like the pain of Preston, wise in their own conceits.
You guys handled the discussion very Godly. Great respect.
Matthew 5:17-18 and Don won this debate, hands down.
Lol
Dr Brown holds a Ph.D in Near Eastern Languages and Literature and yet he doesn’t understand the teaching of Jesus, the Apostles and Paul.
I believe Mr. Preston presented his view with more examples and facts.
he talked twice as fast
Be a berean. It's not hard at ALL to annhialate this whole theology. I wrote 8 entire pages on this in an hour on Friday and it's most likely going to be 20 by tomorrow. The largest, easiest rebuke I've come across. Jehovas witnesses are harder to tackle than this. I highly encourage reading ALL of scripture and not just gospels and Paul's epistles.
Dr Preston would love to develop the Exodus motive and I think I can help along. I am glad he sees the parallels between Exodus from Egypt and the Exodus from the bondage of sin under Greater Moses - Jesus. So just take one step further in this analogy, Mr Preston, and consider that EXIT from Egypt did not automatically took Israel straight in the the Promise Land but there was 40 years of wandering in the wilderness before they crossed Jordan. So did Ezekiel said in ch 20 that there would be another Exodus (of which we are talking about) and that God would bring Israel out into the wilderness of people... I think there is no need to develop my point any further. The motif is clear - we are in the wilderness of people both from 1 st century after death and Resurrection of Jesus until we cross the proverbial Jordan and enter into the Promised Rest of which author of Hebrews said "still remains", as well as every person individually is in that wilderness from the moment they died to themselves through repentance and the baptism until they will be resurrected in like manner at Christ's return.
@@garlandjones7709 link?
@@DJ5780 brother that was literal. It was on paper. Not typed or saved or published as an article. I can however discuss it If you'd like.
Josephus (A.D. 75) - Jewish Historian
"Besides these [signs], a few days after that feast, on the one- and-twentieth day of the month Artemisius, [Jyar,] a certain prodigious and incredible phenomenon appeared; I suppose the account of it would seem to be a fable, were it not related by those that saw it, and were not the events that followed it of so considerable a nature as to deserve such signals; for, before sun-setting, chariots and troops of soldiers in their armour were seen running about among the clouds, and surrounding of cities. Moreover, at that feast which we call Pentecost, as the priests were going by night into the inner [court of the] temple, as their custom was, to perform their sacred ministrations, they said that, in the first place, they felt a quaking, and heard a great noise, and after that they heard a sound as of a great multitude, saying, "Let us remove hence" (Jewish Wars, VI-V-3).
Tacitus (A.D. 115) - Roman historian
"13. Prodigies had occurred, but their expiation by the offering of victims or solemn vows is held to be unlawful by a nation which is the slave of superstition and the enemy of true beliefs. In the sky appeared a vision of armies in conflict, of glittering armour. A sudden lightning flash from the clouds lit up the Temple. The doors of the holy place abruptly opened, a superhuman voice was heard to declare that the gods were leaving it, and in the same instant came the rushing tumult of their departure. Few people placed a sinister interpretation upon this. The majority were convinced that the ancient scriptures of their priests alluded to the present as the very time when the Orient would triumph and from Judaea would go forth men destined to rule the world." (Histories, Book 5, v. 13)
When the Jewish revolt began, Nero was in Greece building a canal. Concerning the construction of this waterway, Cassius Dio writes, “[W]hen the first workers touched the earth, blood spouted from it, groans and bellowings were heard, and many phantoms appeared. Nero himself thereupon grasped a mattock and by throwing up some of the soil fairly compelled the rest to imitate him.”[2] In recording this event, Suetonius indicates that as Nero broke the ground the sound of a trumpet was heard.[3] The fact that a trumpet was heard at the time in which the dead appear to have been raised clearly fulfills
1 Corinthians 15:52: “For the trumpet will sound, [and] the dead will be raised imperishable . . .
Bingo!!! 😊
Nero was definitely not 666.
Jaw drop moment for me at 1:15:20 as he begins to answer the question about the fulfillment of they shall beat their swords into plowshares.
I thought I would've clearly fallen on one side of the debate but now I've a lot of thinking and studying to do! Very well thought out debate and respectful tone throughout the entire time. James did a great job moderating. Both men spoke with knowledge and conviction and have raised some points that I'll have to study on.
Enjoyed it very much! Thanks guys!
Sheila C please write me at tanyuelvisshey@gmail.com for more clarification on Mr. Preston's position.
@@tanyuelvis Matthew 24 of which this argument is based off that preterist thinks supports them is the very same chapter that destroys it in three different places
@@garlandjones7709 can you mention the 3 different places?
@@tanyuelvis verses 32 and 33. The fig tree. First off that tree represents the knowledge of israel in relation to the messiah. He just cursed that three in Matthew 19 or 21... That tree isn't becoming tender until our current time. Most notably since the 1990s.
2nd, the KEY WORD SUMMER.... is related to the 7 feasts. Jesus fulfilled the first three, the 4th is halfway fullfilled. That's Pentecost, the wheat harvest. This is still going on now and is the gap between the 69th and 70th week. It's when the church began and also signifies it's end aka the time of the gentiles be fulfilled. This is wheat and tare parable. Jesus fulfilled all 4 of those ON their dates. That's established pattern. Then Pentecost fulfills w the rapture and then the 3 others will fulfill ON THEIR DATES. there's 10 days between all 3 of them, that's it. That's where the suddenness comes in.
Also, Titus temple destruction didn't destroy it all. His left the western wall that's still prayed at today, yesterday and will be tomorrow. 70ad account is luke 21 not Matthew 24. One wars of things b4, on3 of things after.
Also, preterism defends the coming of Jesus in the clouds in 66ad and temple destroyed in 70 for their 3 and a half years. PRoblem. Jesus says coming in the clouds happens AFTTER the tribulation of jews is over. Fyi, Matthew 24 and coming in clouds is not the rapture. This is him coming to split the mount of olives for armageddon.
Lastly, as for THIS GENERATION inverse 35 IS NOT TO THOSE LISTENING. Proof? Preterist saythis is proof he was talking about ad70 or he was a liar.
Matthew 12:39 and Matthew 15:4 is quite clear that the only sign THAT generation wad getting in Jerusalem was his crucifiction and resurrection. Matthew knew this too penning this gospel. So obviously he had to be speaking of a future. Not to mention that's pulled out of context of a parable of which there's. Clear separation from his prior dialogue.
The list on this is endless.... I can lay out 2nd coming proofs for HOURS. DANIEL 9:26 forward makes it clear there is a THIRD temple. The antichrist marks an end to sacrifice AFTER the 2nd temple is destroyed and it's in plain english. So Daniel 9 alone provides proof of a third
@@tanyuelvis I understand where preterist come from. I also understand how they make everything spiritual and that's great . Scripture is made that way. It has literal meaning, and allegorical but it always has physical fulfillment. It has allegorical or spiritual application in day to day life, all of it. And all scripture also points to something related to the messiah through pattern. All of it. But there is unwritten (kind of) law that the physical and spiritual realm parallel. They are inseparably linked and this goes all the way back to Genesis 1:1. This is preterist teachings or rather interpretating/hermeneutical flaw. Props to them for not taking everything literal and only literal, but you can't discard the literal either. Even when referring to figures of speech, metaphors, idioms, analogies, etc... you still have physical fulfilment and it's always precise, especially numbers. There are no ballparks, they're dead accurate.
Outside of this as I pointed out earlier, their entire argument for WHY tgeybhold this view is null and void, debunked garbage. And that's exactly what it is is false trash. It's a major deceptions and holding that view whether you're ignorant of its implications or not, is probably salvation dependant for a handful of reasons.
Are you familiar with 2 Peter 3:5-9?
"Been there, done that!"-Jesus
Bravo! I really enjoyed this exchange. I've watched it twice now.
The most important idea that came forward - THE PIVOTAL POINT - is Dr Preston's question regarding hermeneutics: By what authority do we ignore Jesus' and the inspired NT writer's interpretation of OT prophecy?
This question is a huge key to our understanding. ( You can hear this question starting at 1:19:58, and a fuller discussion at 51:51)
Sadly, Dr Brown's responses to this question are disappointing and not Scripturally grounded.
In agreement with Dr Preston's question, I would emphasize Paul's revelation of The Mystery of God. Paul clearly and repeatedly makes the point that God's Eternal Plan was purposely hidden - obscured - in the OT. Paul describes that God cloaked His Plan in a Mystery in order to hide it from the rulers of that age, "... for had the powers of this age known this, they would not have crucified the Lord of Glory." 1Corinthians 2:5-10.
Paul stunningly says if we do not understand this (previously hidden) Wisdom of God's Eternal Plan, then WE DON'T HAVE THE WHOLE MESSAGE!! (Colossians 1:25)
According to Paul, if we are ignorant or in denial of "this Mystery which has been hidden from ages and generations", then WE ARE NOT MATURE, and WE ARE NOT ESTABLISHED! (Colossians 1:28, Romans 16:25)
This is exciting stuff! Paul alerts us to the fact that God had hidden "the fullness of His Word", so we should be looking for this. The NT writers show us WHERE this information had been hidden. Through their Holy Spirit inspired interpretation and applications, the NT writers show us WHERE IN THE OT PROPHECIES GOD HAD HIDDEN THIS WISDOM.
So the question stands: By what authority do we ignore the NT writer's interpretations?
I'm surprised more people aren't talking about this. This is a question all of us must wrestle with.
+Sonrise Highway
Thank you! Christian zionists will do anything to avoid Peter's directive that the *New Testament is the Inspired, Authoritative, Interpretation of the prophets!* 1Peter 1:10-12
Bibles weren't printed for the public until the 16th century after the invention of the printing press. It took at least a year to hand copy one and religious authorities had control of it. Paul warned about the truth being corrupted before his martyrdom by those who wanted to maintain their authority over people. The gospel is about reconciliation. Adam was 'cast out' of his father's presence. Jesus came to restore what Adam lost and gifted mankind with. All 3rd party mediators were destroyed with the temple cultus, 70 AD. They sat as a QUEEN at the right hand of power as mediators between the two alienated parties. It is finished! be reconicled to your father! 2 Cor 5:20-24. Those who have been reconciled to their father have him to be their TEACHER> Matt 23:8-10.
Dr Preston would love to develop the Exodus motive and I think I can help along. I am glad he sees the parallels between Exodus from Egypt and the Exodus from the bondage of sin under Greater Moses - Jesus. So just take one step further in this analogy, Mr Preston, and consider that EXIT from Egypt did not automatically took Israel straight in the the Promise Land but there was 40 years of wandering in the wilderness before they crossed Jordan. So did Ezekiel said in ch 20 that there would be another Exodus (of which we are talking about) and that God would bring Israel out into the wilderness of people... I think there is no need to develop my point any further. The motif is clear - we are in the wilderness of people both from 1 st century after death and Resurrection of Jesus until we cross the proverbial Jordan and enter into the Promised Rest of which author of Hebrews said "still remains", as well as every person individually is in that wilderness from the moment they died to themselves through repentance and the baptism until they will be resurrected in like manner at Christ's return.
@Daniel Deng And what changed in YOUR life in 70AD?
OH! and by the by the bye. Ive heard Don debating for 20 years , He is the master debator.
+Brent Fleming
He is a living example of the results of disobedient believers, NOT admonishing him twice and then, fully, completely cutting him off and declaring him outside the body of Christ.
The already-not-yet only lasted 40 years in the first century.
Unfortunately, for people that don't yet understand the Biblical teaching of Covenant Eschatology, which is the angle Don Preston is coming from, and might I add, is the correct hermeneutic, a debate like this that is only supposed to focus on one topic is not sufficient to change the mind of a futurist. To fully grasp Preston's argument requires a fundamental shift in hermeneutics because Covenant eschatology affects our belief about much more than how we view modern Israel.
I was a staunch futurist, and very knowledgeable of current and traditional views about the second coming until I came across Preston and others that teach Covenant eschatology and I just could not hold on to a belief that was soundly refuted by an explanation of the true meaning of end times texts. I can't tell you how much more scripture became clear. To my brothers and sisters in Christ that support Dr. Brown, I encourage you to do some deep study of the Bible and read Preston's work before you go on defending error.
Also, to anyone bold enough to accuse Preston of teaching heresy, I would be very careful with your words because God will hold you accountable. What I find interesting is that instead of us being close to the end of the world, I think we're at the beginning of another reformation. And, in the same way the Catholic hierarchy resisted Luther, so too will Covenant Eschatology meet with great resistance by the hierarchy of today.
There is no way you are going to convince me that God is done with the Nation of Israel.
Perhaps you ought to study the history of the Wars that Israel had to fight in order to survive.
➡1948: War of Independence. So many Muslims fought ( 6-7 Countries) against the Jews, yet no where in War History has the tables be turned around.. ( except the 300 men with Gideon) lol
➡1956 : Sinai Campaign
➡ 1967 : 6 day War
➡ 1973 : Yom Kippur War
➡ 1982 : Lebanese Invasion
➡ 1991 : Gulf War
➡ 2000 onwards : Suicide bombers
➡ 2006 : Operation Cast Lead with Hizbollah
➡ 2012 : Operation Pillar of Defense
➡ 2014 : Operation Protective Edge
God stands with the Nation of Israel. He fights for their survival & birth into the world. A Nation birthed in a day - who has ever heard ??
He who scatters Israel will gather the children of Israel back to the land of their forefathers. NEVER to be plucked out again !
The fair question to Dr Brown is: What was the eschatological significance of 70AD?
The preterist view totally changes how you read the bible. That is why a lot of people can't understand Hebrews, Thessalonians etc. They start to make sense.
@@joyfulpreterist7532 amen. It’s the key that unlocks the understanding of how all scripture connects together. Every other system engages in coming up with different theories to try and connect scripture together which rises questions that require more theories to answer the questions. But with preterism everything can be explained from scripture without all different theories read INTO scripture. If Occam’s razor applied to hermeneutics preterism wins by a long shot.
@@therealjakedean3317 Look up "Eschatology by Samuel Lee" over on Bit *censored* Chute - can't put those words together or youtube will censor it... it's an amazing book from the 1800's by one of the most prestigious scholars of language and a great mind of Biblical prophesy.
@@JohnDoe-le8fy
I may have a pdf of that book in my archives. Are you the same person who has the TH-cam account @Johnny Doe?
@@JohnDoe-le8fy whoever owns the TH-cam account @Johnny Doe I have no interest in communicating with them provided the complete inability to engage in cordial discussion or abide by basic rules of communication (propositional logic)
Fascinating stuff. Dr. Preston has some persuasive arguments but because he knows his own stuff so well he speaks too fast and goes off on too many tangents for the neutral listener to coherently process his arguments adequately. Also because his whole view of covenant eschatology is so far removed from what most people know and have believed all their lives it makes it incredibly difficult to get a grasp on his hermeneutical viewpoint which then, in the end, renders his arguments just too obscure for the layman.
The Canberean ...I agree...great comment
I don't consider myself to be a stupid person, and my own thinking appears to line up more with Dr. Preston. But my eyes glazed over listening to him. You're right; he speaks very fast and jumps from reference to reference and topic to topic so quickly and continuously that I just find myself all worn out. Better for me to read a book, I think.
That's because most people do not study the bible but accept whatever they are taught by those they trust. They do not search the scriptures to see if those things they are taught are so. Acts 17:11.
Therefore, take notes...listen to his points over and over compare it with scripture he uses and then be honest with yourself.
@@dionsanchez4478 I have tried. Many times. I've tried reading a few of his books too. Just way too convoluted and messy. All over the place. He needs a good editor.
Preterism and historicism are a lot more consistent than futurism.
Michael brown seems to think that babies will be born and den with cobras, that lions wont care that lambs are meat and wont try to eat them. Until then he thinks that Yeshua hasn't come.
Having read some of the 'heated' comments here I have to say that I wish we Christians were as gracious with each other's opinions as we are with those who do not believe. I think an exercise in good manners would raise the standard here on TH-cam. I always try to disagree in an agreeable way - otherwise there is more heat than light.
I am curious what Dr Brown would say about Paul stating that there is no more Jew or gentile but we are all one in Christ therefore affirming the consummation of all things. Fulfilled fulfilled fulfilled thank you for the great debate. Much to think about from both sides.
Thank you Dr. Preston for clarifying Dr. Brown's error in stating "If words have any meaning..." Yes, words do have meaning, but we have to properly discern exactly what is being communicated BY the words! Paul and Jesus do exactly what Dispensationalists say we shouldn't do, they "reinterpret" (Allegedly) the O.T. meanings by "Spiritualizing" the text! What they are actuallaly doing is clarifying what God himself intended to communicate, which is the TRUE, ultimate, Heavenly fulfillment of Prophecy as opposed to the proximate, earthly fulfillment, BOTH Literal! Read the principal set forth by Paul in 1 Corinthians 15:
The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual.The first man was of the dust of the earth; the second man is of heaven.As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the heavenly man, so also are those who are of heaven.And just as we have borne the image of the earthly man, so shall we [fn] bear the image of the heavenly man.
No the spiritual came first....better start in Genesis...brother this is heresy.
Great job Brown! As always... a class act.
Don Preston clearly used scripture to prove his points. Being a Jew himself Mr Brown used scripture to support his believes that Israel is still the people of God. This is the same reason Jewish leader in the time of Christ were condemned. They refused to except the fact that Israel is now a spiritual nation through Christ.
One thing that was not brought up that should have been, Is the spiritual truth about the promise made to Abraham. It was never a promise limited to Israel as a nation in the flesh. The natural was only a shadow of that to come which is the Spiritual.
For example the name Israel in the natural represent the Children of Abraham in the flesh. Also it represent a physical nation in the world even to this day.
In the spiritual the name Israel means PRINCE. Genesis 32:28. In the natural the name was giving to Jacob Abraham seed according to the flesh. In the Spiritual the seed of promise is not Israel in the flesh but Christ. Christ is the seed of Abraham according to the promise It is Christ who represents the Israel of God. He is ISRAEL the (PRINCE) of God. See Isaiah 9:6, Romans 9:6-8,
Galatians 3:16 is the perfect verse to support the fact that Christ is Israel the promised seed and also Don Preston's view.
Galatians 3:16, 26, 28-29 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to
seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
[28] There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor
free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ
Jesus.
[29] And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
In Romans 9:29 It says if God had not brought forth a seed, all of Israel would have ended up being like Sodom and Gomorrah.
Notice one more extremely interesting point. The genealogy of Abraham's seed in Luke chapter 3, end with CHRIST.
There is no more natural seed after Christ in the genealogy of the Children of Abraham. Why is this? Because fulfilled the promised of the seed of Abraham.
When Paul says In Romans 11 all Israel shall be SAVED: He is talking about all Israel in Christ. And there is a remnant of the natural linage who are saved in Christ.
Israel as a nation in the Middle East will not be saved. Don Preston made it clear that Jerusalem is now a Spiritual Jerusalem.
Jeru meaning Rock or foundation and Salem meaning PEACE. Christ is The King over the Spiritual Israel and He is the New Jerusalem.
Christ is the foundation or Rock of our peace. God Bless.
Jesus said...“Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken from you and given to a nation bearing the fruits of it. Matthew 21 The Parable of the Wicked Vinedressers
33 “Hear another parable: There was a certain landowner who planted a vineyard and set a hedge around it, dug a winepress in it and built a tower. And he leased it to vinedressers and went into a far country. 34 Now when vintage-time drew near, he sent his servants to the vinedressers, that they might receive its fruit. 35 And the vinedressers took his servants, beat one, killed one, and stoned another. 36 Again he sent other servants, more than the first, and they did likewise to them. 37 Then last of all he sent his son to them, saying, ‘They will respect my son.’ 38 But when the vinedressers saw the son, they said among themselves, ‘This is the heir. Come, let us kill him and seize his inheritance.’ 39 So they took him and cast him out of the vineyard and killed him.
40 “Therefore, when the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those vinedressers?”
41 They said to Him, “He will destroy those wicked men miserably, and lease his vineyard to other vinedressers who will [a]render to him the fruits in their seasons.”
42 Jesus said to them, “Have you never read in the Scriptures:
‘The stone which the builders rejected
Has become the chief cornerstone.
This was the Lord’s doing,
And it is marvelous in our eyes’?
43 “Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken from you and given to a nation bearing the fruits of it. 44 And whoever falls on this stone will be broken; but on whomever it falls, it will grind him to powder.”
45 Now when the chief priests and Pharisees heard His parables, they [b]perceived that He was speaking of them.
Had no idea these 2 debated. 2 of the best most interesting Christian minds
I really enjoyed this debate. I've seen Don Debate several people over the years and I thought Dr. Brown represented his position as effectively as anyone I've seen debate Don. The challenge that Don has is to illustrate complex biblical literature to the level of the average layman. He's at a disadvantage because Dr. Brown appeals to the "plain" language hermeneutic which is much easier to win debate points on. However as James White pointed out more than once this debate really boiled down to language hermeneutics. Dr. Brown likes to present a literal reading of Isaiah 11 concerning the animals lying down together as a picture of a physical change in dynamics that are prophesied to happen. That makes sense if that "plain" language was the intent of the author. Many a trusted scholar will tell you that is "metaphorical" language denoting at the time of Messiah that the domesticated clean animals representing God's people Israel will come together in piece with Gods unclean wild animals representing Gentiles. That indeed occurred through Christ and thus the prophecy was fulfilled and has been for nearly 2000 years. If one understood this Jewish literature from this perspective then it would be noticed that Dr. Brown's challenge to Don was built upon a false premise which would have taken Don off course if he had attempted to confront every single example that Dr. Brown threw at him. That's why Don had the bigger challenge because you have to teach at the level of your audience and I doubt that most have the literature training in which they could perceive Dr. Browns overly simple challenge to Don.
However again I really appreciated the decorum and scholarship that this debate presented.
Norman Voss I believe if Don was H>S> inspired/lead, he could do so, quite easily. Excuses won't fly (long) in the Kingdom. Nothing personal. My 2 cents.
al karg I believe you err here.
Jesus had to establish a few facts for his disciples to understand that John the Baptist was Elijah and Jesus said they may have to use their brains as it didn't leap out to them at first.
RIiiight. ;-)
@@kargs5krun LOL. So the Holy Spirit is gonna dumb down his revelation? The wise shall understand having the acceptance like children.
Still following preterism?
I love Don's ability to explain the Preterist viewpoint. Especially Becouse I've come to believe it is the correct viewpoint even after being taught my whole life the premillenial futurest viewpoint. I believe this information is a gamechanger in terms of Kingdom understanding and living!!!!!!
a transcript of this debate would be AWESOME
Don , OH baby !! He just gets it. Thank you!!
Dr Preston would love to develop the Exodus motive and I think I can help along. I am glad he sees the parallels between Exodus from Egypt and the Exodus from the bondage of sin under Greater Moses - Jesus. So just take one step further in this analogy, Mr Preston, and consider that EXIT from Egypt did not automatically took Israel straight in the the Promise Land but there was 40 years of wandering in the wilderness before they crossed Jordan. So did Ezekiel said in ch 20 that there would be another Exodus (of which we are talking about) and that God would bring Israel out into the wilderness of people... I think there is no need to develop my point any further. The motif is clear - we are in the wilderness of people both from 1 st century after death and Resurrection of Jesus until we cross the proverbial Jordan and enter into the Promised Rest of which author of Hebrews said "still remains", as well as every person individually is in that wilderness from the moment they died to themselves through repentance and the baptism until they will be resurrected in like manner at Christ's return.
Did I hear that correctly? Did Dr. Brown say Jesus failed His mission?
Time stamp??
All the years I lived in Ardmore and then I discover Mr. Preston right after leaving 😢
Dr. Brown said we have been in the Last Days for the last 2 thousand years?that his my ear funny-
The Bible says a day to God is a thousand years on earth
@@Bazooka_Sharks that me a new God is not limited to time ..
OK, Dr. Brown won the debate, obviously because he's right.
However, it amazes me how these brilliant men can continue to misinterpret Daniel Chapter 9 regarding the "70 weeks". The 70 weeks represent 70 seven year periods. It began when the order was given to Nehemiah to restore and rebuild Jerusalem in 445 B.C. Using the Babylonian calendar of 360 days a year, there were sixty-nine seven year periods from that time (or 483 years) from the time the order was given until the Messiah was cut off (crucified). This leaves one 7 year period remaining. This is the 70th week which is the 7-year Great Tribulation period, yet to occur.
This is a short version explanation. But just read chapter 9 thoroughly with that explanation in mind. That will further eliminate Dr. Preston's arguments in this debate.
This is a joke.
The covenant at Mt Sinai did not annul the previous one ratifiied with Abraham and his seed, one Seed, the Messiah. One seed, the Messiah. One seed, the Messiah. One seed, the Messiah. Did you get that? the eternal covenant is the promised SEED in the Garden of EDEN and ratified with Abraham and his seed. Gal 3:17.
Ask the Father to remove the scales from your eyes of understanding.
Dr. Michael you are absolutely right concerning the Church not ‘replacing Israel’.
Having said that I’m not sure concerning your teaching as to the fullness of the Gentiles has comes in.
Within the context Gentiles are Christians as contrasted with Jews.’
However, Christians are, in fact, people, from all nations, who have been ‘born-again’, Tit 3:5 [original], “Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he delivered us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of a Spirit Holy:” 1Pe 1:23, “Born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible.”
Because of Adam’s eating of the forbidden fruit our spirits have become ‘contaminated’. At rebirth one is ‘regenerated’, born again, and one’s spirit is ‘renewed’ the receiving of the Spirit of Christ being a member of his body, 1Co 12:12-, “For just as the body is one and has many parts, but all the parts of that one body, being many, are one body, so also is Christ. For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body--whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free--and we were all given to drink into one Spirit.”
There are therefore three groups: Jews, Christians and Gentiles. Christians are ‘raptured’ after the great tribulation and the preaching of the Good News to all nations.
The Jews who have read and understood, Mat 24:15-, “Therefore when you see the 'abomination of desolation,' spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place" (whoever reads, let him understand), then let those who are in Judea flee upon the mountains,” would be kept safe during the time of the great tribulation.
Those who did not flee will therefore together with the Gentiles be subjected to the wrath of the God that follows the rapture, Rev 15 and 16.
Those who have ‘fled’ can start counting, Dan 12:11-, “And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the desolating abomination set up, a thousand two hundred and ninety days shall occur. Blessed is he who waits and comes to the thousand three hundred and thirty-five days.”
As for Dr. Don he errs in that he does not distinguish between the kingdom of the God and the kingdom of Jesus, Both God the Father and Jesus are Jehovahs. A Jehovah is ‘self-existing’ and a giver of life, 1Co 15:-28-, “Now when all things are made subject to Him, then also the Son Himself will be subjected to Him who subjected all things to Him, in order that the God may be all in all… :45, And so it is written, "The first man, Adam, became a living soul," the last Adam was a life-giving Spirit.”
Jesus’ mission was to preach the kingdom of the God, not his own kingdom, Mar 1:14-, “And after John was delivered up, Jesus came into Galilee, proclaiming the gospel of the kingdom of the God, and saying, ‘The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of the God draws near. Repent, and believe the gospel.’”
The question begging an answer who are ‘them’ , ‘us’ and the gospel Peter was preaching 1Pe 1:12-, “To them it was revealed that not to themselves, but to us, they ministered the things which are now reported to you by those who have preached the gospel to you by a holy Spirit sent from Heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.”
Dr. Don should have considered reading from verse 1 and kept to the Greek text because translators, at times, omit the definite article, guarding the ‘Trinity’ dogma.
As for 1Pet 2:9-, “But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for possession, so that you might speak of the praises of Him who has called you out of darkness into the marvellous light of Him; who formerly were not a people but now are the people of a God, who had not received mercy, but now have received mercy.” If words have meaning who is Peter addressing?
Do note Acts 2:16 Peter did not say, “This is the fulfilment which was spoken by the prophet Joel.” He said, “But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel.” The 120 upon whom the Holy Spirit came were born-again; their sins were forgiven. Joel was referring to the time when the Jewish nation’s sins will be forgiven when the Feast of Atonement is fulfilled after the time of the Gentiles has come in.
As for Mat 23:39, “For I say to you, ‘You shall not see Me from now on until you say, "Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord,"’” was fulfilled, Joh 12:12 On the next day, when they heard that Jesus was coming to Jerusalem, a great crowd who had come to the Feast took branches of palm trees and went out to meet Him. And they cried, Hosanna! "Blessed is the King of Israel who comes in the name of the Lord!"
Concerning Daniel 9, I believe both Dr. Don and Dr. Michael have it wrong. Do read my understanding on my blog @ www.myhand.co.za/2011/12/06/daniel-dan-9-24-seventy-sevens-are-appointed/.
Concerning who Jesus is, also read the article 'Was Jesus a Jew at birth? who fathered Jesus?' @ www.myhand.co.za/2015/12/02/was-jesus-a-jew-at-birth-who-fathered-jesus/
The fullness of the gentiles has come in. It is called the new covenant. You are mistaken and are not understanding Ro. 9:4. This applies not to only a remnant of Juda but to the greater numbers of remnant who are the House of Israel.
The Jews in Israel the land, are the same house of Satan that existed at the time of Christ. They continue to deny Christ wholly. The House of Israel are the Christians who were given the deeds of Ro 9:4. Jesus said in Matt , I have come to the scattered tribes of the house of Israel. Remember Daniel 9 he clearly established that the Jews would be judged and they were
I did enjoy the debate. However, Dr. Don Preston's presentation did not provide the same thorough review of the pertinent chapters leading up to the subject text of Romans 11:25-27. In addition, what he said he "demonstrated" wasn't really true. He claimed that he demonstrated but fell way short. Further, I do believe that the writing of the book of Revelation precedes the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70. However, I do not agree with the full preterist view (although some will consider this the only consistent approach). I would like to see Dr. Brown debate someone more balanced in there preteristic perspectives that could carefully exegete the subject text instead of confusing matters with too many short references that cannot be covered in context in such a short debate...Dr. Kenneth Gentry comes to mind for a fantastic brotherly opponent. Also, I greatly appreciate that Dr. Brown acknowledges that not all preterists (partial or otherwise) have an anti-Semitic bend. I have lead many Jews to faith in Yeshua and have a heart to see those descendant by birth from Abraham saved. I felt as if both men handled themselves in a classy way, but Dr. Preston's full preterism is what made me consider that Dr. Brown's positions were stronger.
Dr Michael Brown I love your channel thank you for this channel.
Hint: Everything this fellow says has not happened yet, has actually happened about 2,000 years ago just not in the way he imagines it should.
Sadly, he won't be able to see until the death of his natural body when he'll then find himself in another form and see the truth of all this for himself. If he denies it then, that would constitute a sin against the holy spirit of which there is no forgiveness.
Hi, I have known it, but now I feel good about it. Some few Dr's of divininty believe Daniel's 70 weeks was fulfilled or at least terminated no later than year AD70. I realize now, for sure, it ended in year AD34. I just want to share this info with my Christian colleges.
Tip for today I dwell in heaven and I dwell in your heart I created It the same love all of you papa
As Christians our prayer should be as God would want it for all 1 Timothy 2:4 who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. I don't understand why Michael Brown repeats Romans 11:25,26 saying and all Israel will be saved but does not explain what does that text really mean because we know that thousands of Jews have died and keep dying without Christ as Lord of their lives who knows if millions have died in that matter and we know that the passage is not talking about dead ethnic Jews that died without Christ? As for now the state of Israel for the most part is antichrist and thousands keep dying without Jesus, so Mr Brown explain your point what do you mean all Israel will be saved ?
Michael Brown asked on his radio program how one can associate the term "heaven and earth" with God's covenants with Israel.
Moses, speaking to Israel:
“Give ear, O heavens, and I will speak; And hear, O earth, the words of my mouth. (Deuteronomy 32:1 NKJV)
Isaiah, referring to Israel:
"But I am the LORD your God, Who divided the sea whose waves roared- The LORD of hosts is His name. And I have put My words in your mouth; I have covered you with the shadow of My hand, That I may plant the heavens, Lay the foundations of the earth, And say to Zion, ‘You are My people.’ ” (Isaiah 51:15, 16 NKJV)
John, seeing old Israel pass away and the arrival of the new Israel:
"Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea. Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband." (Revelation 21:1, 2 NKJV)
Good topic, terrible format. No rebuttals of questions is a problem, they were allowed to go way off topic. The moderator interrupted one speaker every few minutes to mention the time and never brought it up on the other guy. No conversation really happened here, one guy spouted his stuff, the other guy spouted his, this was really just two individual lectures here. Don Preston went too deep in my opinion, he could have just spoke with Romans 9 and 11 and done the Job.
+1messiah2comings Why don't you just read your bible and just believe what it says? You need the Holy Spirit for that? Even fisherman understood Jesus words!
“Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.”
"you will not finish going through the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes"
"this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened."
"I am coming soon."
"the Lord’s coming is near."
"The end of all things is near."
"Dear children, this is the last hour;"
"the time is near."
"The night is nearly over; the day is almost here."
If you need the "Holy Spirit" to help you undo the plain meaning of the text, your listening to a different spirit.
Good luck, Tom, but I advise you to ignore this immature person. Sunrise isn't interested in a conversation. He only wants to insult and bully anyone who challenges the pathetic logic he calls "theology". He will mischaracterize your words to make you look bad, and then rail against the straw man he creates from it. So, word to the wise....don't engage this dishonest person.
+Tom Mills - See what I mean? Quoting the bible is characterized as "temper tantrums" by this immature and childish person. I think he/she must be about 12 years old?
+Tom Mills - see what I mean, Tom? Sonrise makes no attempt to understand the context of a scripture, can't get his story straight twice, has to constantly mischaracterize what people say to set up the straw man he's beating up on, and then changes the subject by making every remark personal. I honestly don't think he's interested in the truth, but rather in giving the appearance of winning an argument. Sad, actually.
+Ted Pearce yes I also am a full preterist, but it took a while. I personally think in time, everyone will be. I enjoy sharpening my sword with these videos and dialogues, but I don't need to waste time slaying dragons that are dying, 1000 years from now I hope dispensationalism will be a distant memory. I don't need to shape yours or anyone else's theology, that's the holy spirit's job, but if you want to know what i personally think I love to talk about it. I would just encourage anyone to keep studying without the aid of modern commentaries or preachers. These aids can help, but first try to understand the words of the bible in the mindset of those for whom it was intended. Namely how did the disciples understand Matt 24:34 and others, or what did the churches who received the letters of revelation sent by John think he was saying? I wish you both well.
When they tell me Jesus can’t be my savior
This is my favorite part right here 😇
It is due to God one stop sinning not because of one self.
Job 33:22-29.
They draw near to the pit,
and their life to the messengers of death.
23 Yet if there is an angel at their side,
a messenger, one out of a thousand,
sent to tell them how to be upright,
24 and he is gracious to that person and says to God,
‘Spare them from going down to the pit;
I have found a ransom for them-
25 let their flesh be renewed like a child’s;
let them be restored as in the days of their youth’-
26 then that person can pray to God and find favor with him,
they will see God’s face and shout for joy;
he will restore them to full well-being.
27 And they will go to others and say,
‘I have sinned, I have perverted what is right,
but I did not get what I deserved.
28 God has delivered me from going down to the pit,
and I shall live to enjoy the light of life.’
29 “God does all these things to a person-
twice, even three times-
30 to turn them back from the pit,
that the light of life may shine on them.
Jesus ends sin by setting an example to live by if we take on the character of Christ sin dies that’s why through each individual is this accomplished, sin is swallowed up death is no more.
1 John 2:6
Whoever claims to live in him must live as Jesus did.
Romans 6:6
knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin;
In old Jewish tradition that’s how they saved people by setting an example to live by, but we know Jesus was chosen and predestined to do more then set an example for us to live by. But the ultimate goal was to create a new creation out of us.
The message is clear if God sends somebody to teach you how to be upright and stop sinning it’s because of him, if he sends you visions and dreams and you turn away from sin, it is because of him.
They are both correct to an extent. I appreciate their hospitality to one another. The Kingdom of God is in it's fullness, but in humanity we still do not see the end times rebuilding of the Third Temple,the two witnesses, the abomination of desolation, the 3 1/2 years of Jacob's trouble and the ultimate return of Jesus to the physical Jerusalem with the church. This obviously has not yet happened.
Good debate i hold more of a preterist view.
Great debate. preterist won!
Majority may not be right.. you know ? How God use & deals with Israel, the Church & the unsaved in the world may not be exactly the same way.
Noah & his family were the minority & majority in his time did not believe his message. Yet Noah was right concerning the coming Flood.
Replacement theology is a doctrine of demons - from the pit of hell.
There I said it.
Everyone is dealt with in the same way and it’s cyrstal clear.
“No Man comes to the Father but by me”
There is no getting around that one, no matter the amount of mental gymnastics you eschew
I think the interpretation given by Dr. Brown is clearly one that follows the ordinary reading of Romans 11 better. The interpretation of Dr. Preston, while obviously well-presented and well-researched, has to do a lot of jumping around and importing of other texts to come to its conclusion. That's why I believe in Israel coming back in as a nation. It's what the plain reading of the text strongly suggests.
Exactly. The way not to interpret the Bible is import our ideas into the reading of the text.
How many scriptures did Dr Brownuse to defend his points?
We are not the people to whom these oracles were given. Old covenant Israel sat as a QUEEN interceding between god and mankind, two alienated parties until reconciliation came. The Aaronic priesthood, temple cultus, ceremonial worship and all seen, temporal, external elements was destroyed in the fire of 70 AD.
God does not show favoritism. It's impossible for anyone to claim legal rights to Jerusalem as it was meant to be an international city for all nations, not just one.
"Ordinary reading." This assumes the literal reading as the traditional. But that is not accurate according to Church history.
@@Mike65809 Preston wasn't. He was doing what Protestants argued for: interpreting scripture by scripture. He was using audience relevance and taking into the time elements within scripture itself.
May Father YAHweh bless your understanding.
"If words have any meaning" ...repeating this phrase doesnt change anything. Words in the bible ALWAYS have meaning! It's the original audience relevance of that meaning that you either agree with or ignore, to determine what that meaning is. If you choose to ignore then "words can have WHATEVER MEANING" the reader chooses...
"All the world" - leaning to your own understanding, you'd think it means Globally. But audience relevance proves THEY understood it to mean "inhabited (consensus) world" - the Roman Empire
Thank you Dr. Michael Brown for this upload! Having read every word of the Bible at least seventy times, and many vital passages and whole books many more times over, I do _not_ recognize the way in which Dr. Don Preston presents Israel and eschatology. His thinking is out of focus, to say the least. On the other hand, I do recognize your approach to the subject in hand. In fact, I wholeheartedly agree with _everything_ you say concerning Israel and eschatology. It was like hearing my own notes being read! :)
good
Last Days Detective The way that Don Preston' presents Israel is through the perverted lens of anti-Semitism and the very arrogance that Paul preached about in Romans 9 through 11. Paul went through great pains to establish the God was faithful, compassionate and mercificul despite Israel's disobedience for the sake of their fathers. Mr. Preston is simply ignoring, misstating, contorting and omitting scripture to prove his anti-Semetic, preterist blasphemy.
Michael Gilroy
Those who elevate one race or nation of people over another are racist and antiChrist. 'There is neither Jew nor Gentile....' to God after the Old Covenant of DEATH was completed in 70 AD. The Mosaic Covenant did not supercede nor annul the previous one God made in the Garden of Eden and ratified with Abraham, which is the SEED, the Eternal Covenant, the Messiah.
The movement of the Gospel has been the New Born Again Israel. Symbols move on into a greater reality in the Body of Jesus, which includes Jews and Gentiles who are all believers. YOU MUST BE BORN AGAIN.
Love the debate..thanks
Mr. Preston is correct, there is no magic space present in any of the end time prophecies. Take for example Daniel's 70 week prophecy in Daniel 9. At the end of the 69th week, year zero, the Messiah comes v25. In the middle of the week, 35 AD, the Messiah makes a covenant with the many with his blood Matthew 26:28. At the end of the last week, 70 AD, He destroys the city and the sanctuary resulting in desolation v26, and complete destruction as decreed v27. At the end of the 70 weeks the transgression is finished, sin ended, iniquity atoned for, and everlasting righteousness brought in v24. There is only one great tribulation which occurred in 70 AD as prophesied in Matthew 24, Mark 13, Luke 21, Revelation and summarized in the wedding parable in Matthew 22: 1 to 7. Those believing the lie of the magic space are in grave danger because they don't understand the times we are living in.
+Kate E Nicely Summarized! God Bless the Israel of God! :)
+mmlj4kmck 25 AD is a typo. It should be 35 AD. Sorry about that but you understood anyway. God bless!
+mmlj4kmck
And what exactly would a "theoretical, spontaneous new Jesus" be based off of? A prophecy? Which prophecy foretells of Jesus correcting 2,000 year old apostles?
Brown is really showing that he rejects whatever he feels like based on if it specifically helps his agenda or not.
Is there something the apostles got wrong? Is there a movement he knows of to fake a "messianic" re-education?
What could Jesus "correct" I don't understand his precedent for such a statement.
+DiscipleOf TheWatch In Daniels 70 weeks it tells us that salvation and judgment take place in the apostles generation. When Mr. Brown is saying that the times of the Gentiles hasn’t ended but when it does the Jews will accept Jesus he is building time into prophecy that isn’t there. Please don’t believe this lie. You must accept Jesus as your savior today because tomorrow may be too late!
In Jesus’s parable in Luke 17: 11 to 27 he confirmed the kingdom wasn’t going to appear immediately, he was going away to receive it and then return v12, and his going away occurred when his citizens rejected him v14. Upon his return he judged his disciples on the profit they made v 15 to 26 on the money he had left them with to invest v13, then he destroyed his enemies that did not want him to reign over them v27. Jesus confirms in his wedding feast parable in Matthew 22: 2 to 7 that the nation of Israel were the enemies that he destroyed when he says that the nation of Israel were invited by GOD to a wedding v 2 & 3 but they “would not come” v3. “Again, he sent forth other servants” v 4 and the nation of Israel “made light of [it], and went their ways” v 5, and the remnant “took his servants, and entreated [them] spitefully, and slew [them]” v6. Then GOD “sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city” V7. This is confirmed to be the nation of Israel in Matthew 23:37 & 38 where Jesus cries "Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. Behold, your house is being left to you desolate!” and by the reality of the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD.
When Jesus stated in Matthew 23:39 “you will not see me again until you say, ‘blessed is he who comes in the name of the LORD’” it doesn’t mean “until you welcome me back” as Mr. Brown has indicated which sounds like the Pharisees were the authors of their own fate and could pick and chose when to accept Jesus. In context Jesus is talking to the Pharisees calling them hypocrites v25 who are like whitewashed tombs v27 appearing righteous on the outside but on the inside full of hypocrisy and wickedness v28. Jesus warns them “Woe to you” v29 because while they claimed they would not have taken part in shedding the prophets blood v30, He tells them to go ahead and complete what their ancestors started v32 which obviously refers to torturing and killing Him. He continue on calling them snakes, brood of vipers v33, I am sending you prophets and sages and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify; others you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town v34, and so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth v35. Then He states that He longed to gather them together but they were unwilling v37 AND their house is left to them desolate v38. In Matthew 23:39 Jesus is making a threat, not a promise to the Pharisees that unless they accept him they will not see him again.
Paul explained this in Romans 9: 31 & 32 “the people of Israel, who pursued the law as the way of righteousness, have not attained their goal. Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone.” Jesus is the cornerstone that was rejected Mark 12:10 by the “vine-growers” v7, then he came and destroyed them and gave the vineyard to others v9. Peter said of Jesus “Now to you who believe, this stone is precious. But to those who do not believe, "The stone the builders rejected has become the cornerstone," and, "A stone that causes people to stumble and a rock that makes them fall." They stumble because they disobey the message--which is also what they were destined for” in 1 Peter 2: 7 & 8. This was prophesied in Isaiah 8:14 “He will be a holy place; for both Israel and Judah he will be a stone that causes people to stumble and a rock that makes them fall. And for the people of Jerusalem he will be a trap and a snare.” Clearly Jesus is a stumbling stone, a trap and a snare to those who reject the salvation he bought through his blood sacrifice.
+Kate E
Agreed! *I like the way you explained Matthew **23:39**!*"You will not see me again, until you say, Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord"
This Scripture is one of the most abused, and one of the most baffling to so many.
It's surprising to me that OT scholars overlook the fact that this Scripture is an echo from Psalm 118, one of the "High Hallel" Psalms sung at the major feasts, especially the Fall feasts. The irony is that, there's a possibility this was sung at the Fall feast, while Jerusalem was Falling down around their ears.
Great job! Dr.Michael Brown!!
one of the most respectful debates I've listened to... It would be interested to see these to debate after Dr. Brown's had some time to read Preston's writings... That being said, does anyone know what Dr. Browns position is? I've heard him say that he's not a dispensationalist, but he does seem to take a fairly "literal" approach to OT prophecy... would he identify with Progressive Dispensationalism? Does he see Christ as seated on David's throne right now?
To say the resurrection happened in AD 70 is heretical.
2 Timothy 2:18 (KJV 1900): Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.
Dr Brown also assumes that when Paul speak of the gentiles, he is referring to the saved gentile christians, However, the term gentile refers to the unsaved gentiles that has not yet turned to Christ. Once a gentile turns to Christ and is saved, he is no longer referred as a gentile but a saint, a child of G-d. a people or person now included as a national ethnic Israel as indicated in exodus and Leviticus. In exodus and leviticus, it clearly stated that any gentile once becoming a Jew is no longer regarded as a gentile but included among the jews as a naturally born Jew. This is to say, for Paul to refer to the saved Christians as gentiles would be contrary to scripture. How is it that Dr Brown would not understand that? @9:21
Brown builds strawmen , then tears them apart
Hey everyone who is saying that God is done with Israel. What does this scripture mean?
Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:
If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.
Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD.
After almost 2000 yrs Israel is a nation and the Jews are back in their land never to be uprooted again. AMEN
That Scripture seems so solid to me, and in Jeremiah right next to the New Covenant promises for Israel and Judah that we've been grafted in to. I don't see how we could take the parts we like there and say that they won't be fulfilled for Israel, too.
Neill Gibson This is the church age and that will end when the 7rs of tribulation or the 70 th week begins then at the end of that all Israel will be saved when their messiah comes to save them and deliver them from their enemies
The problem most have with interpreting the "seed" in Jeremiah is beginning in the "middle" or at the "end" rather than at the beginning. God defined the "seed" of Abraham in Gen. 12:7; 21:12; 22;18 (which by the way is none other than the "seed" in Gen. 3:15).
He said, "In Isaac shall your seed be called". A significant point about Isaac is that God commands Abraham to "kill him" (offer him as a sacrifice) which he did (Gen. 22:1-12; Heb. 11:17-19).
The significance of this point is missed. Isaac was Abraham's natural seed, but through offering him up as a sacrifice ended that natural seed connection, "figuratively speaking."
The point is God was showing that Abraham's seed (through Isaac) was not through the flesh, else, how could he accept Jacob and reject Esau, both of whom were the natural seed of Abraham? (Rom. 9:6-13). What is the point?
God demonstrated that "true" Israel was/is not through the flesh but through the power of the Spirit and calling of God. The point made in Heb. 11:17-19, and which was demonstrated in Abraham's faith in putting Isaac to death, is that he accounted that God was able to raise Isaac from the dead, which the text says he did in a figure.
Therefore, at that point, Isaac was no longer regarded as a "fleshly seed" of Abraham (as related to the promise) but the seed by God's calling and power. That confirms the connection between Isaac and Christ. Isaac typified Christ, who also died to the Law (Lk. 9:31), making his "exodus" from the Old Covenant (the realm according to the flesh) to be raised by the power of God in the realm according to the Spirit (Rom. 1:3-4; 1 Pet. 3:18). See the "locatives" in the Greek on the latter text. (Note this had nothing to do with their physical bodies for after the resurrection Christ yet had the same body, but was raised into a different sphere, i.e. that of the Spirit.
Thus, Christ is the only true seed of Israel and the one through and by whom all the seed are determined. Gal. 3:16 establishes that point well in that he says not to "seeds" as of many (i.e. the nation), but as of "One", to your "Seed" singular which is Christ.
Thus, all (the natural seed) of Abraham and those of the nations (Gentiles) who accepted Christ are true Israel and had/have the right to the inheritance. Gal. 4:21-31 shows that the natural seed are in fact "Ishmael" (not Isaac). They were persecuting the true seed in Christ (Isaac, --sons of promise) and were therefore to be "cast out" as they would not inherit with the sons of the freewoman (Sarah, the New Covenant people).
This casting out of the "unbelieving" natural seed (Ishmael) occurred in 70 AD, just as Jesus taught in the parable of the vineyard, Matt. 21:33-43; and 8:11-12; and the wedding invitation/feast, 22:1-8).
Since God was only going to save the remnant (true Israel, Isaac), i.e. "all" true Israel, (Rom. 9:27-28), he did not cast away his people. But, not casting away his people begs the question of "who are his people" which is the point above. "They were not all Israel who were "of Israel" neither were they all children because they were the "seed" (natural) of Abraham. (Rom. 9:6-8). Some were "Ishmael and some were Isaac.
So to make an argument or hold a position that all Israel are the natural seed is fallacious to the core and directly opposed to plain Scripture. Jumping over these verses to get to Rom. 11:25-27 is neither wise nor logical.
All believing Israel (the true seed) were the proof that God had not cast away his people whom he foreknew. God never cast off the remnant. Israel did not object to God's choosing Jacob and rejecting Esau, nor did they object to God choosing Isaac and casting out Ishmael. Therefore, it should not be objected to that God rejects unbelieving Israel, the natural seed (sons of the bondwoman) in favor of those who accepted Jesus Christ, (sons of Sarah).
Further, to read Rom. 11:25-27 with no regard for the temporal limitations of the text as in Rom. 13:11-12, (a quote from the resurrection context of Dan. 12) is to deny that Rom. 11:25-27 is the coming of Christ and time of the resurrection.
Things equal to the same thing are equal to one another. Rom. 11:25-27 is the resurrection/parousia. Rom. 13:11-12 is the resurrection/parousia. Rom. 13:11-12 fulfills Dan. 12:1-3. Therefore, Rom. 11:25-27 fulfills Dan. 12:1-3. The imminence of the text is thereby established.
The point is that according to Rom. 13:11-12, Paul, through the Spirit wrote it was the "last hour", i.e. the hour just before dawn as the night was far spent. Thus the "hour to awake out of sleep (resurrection/salvation of Rom. 11:25-27) had drawn near.
If we were told today by an inspired apostle that it "is" the last hour, how many of us would think he meant the year 4014? Hopefully none. They why reason in such manner on Rom. 13:11-12?
That was Israel's salvation to be consummated at the destruction of Jerusalem when "Ishmael" (children according to the flesh, --the Jerusalem which "then was" Gal. 4:25) was banished from the covenant, never to be reinstituted or reconstituted again. We must never forget that Abraham had "two sons" and God does not bring Ishmael back into Abraham's house in the allegory and neither in the fulfillment, as a separate, co-existing people. Isaac, represents Christians (Abraham's true seed) who inherit in Christ, who is the only way, truth and the life for salvation. The natural seed were blinded to this because they stumbled at the law, which was designed to lead them to Christ, (Deut. 18:15f; Acts 3:22-26; Gal. 3:24).
That's why Jesus always told the nation that if they believed Moses, they would believe him, but because they didn't believe his writings, neither would they believe his words, even if one were to rise from the dead.
There is no natural seed today in covenant with God, except as any who might be genetically determined as such who have obeyed Christ. Jesus is the door of the Sheep and all who seek to come in any other way is a "thief and a robber".
Brown loses the argument on Israel linguistically, genetically, historically, nationally and Scripturally. He did a respectable job on his position in the first presentation on the context of Rom. 11, but his applications and everything else went down hill from that point as the only proof he offered was "that has not happened", --assertions which he could not and did not prove.
Preston gave all the proof in the limited time allotted contextually for the regathering of Israel who had been scattered per Isaiah 11, 24-29, Ezk. 36-37; Hosea 1-3 and Deut 32, showing they were being regathered in Christ in the very time of Rom. 9, 10, 15 and 1 Pet. 1-2.
End Times Eschatology All Things Fulfilled My friend you are grossly in error. Abraham did not kill Issac. The Angel of the Lord stop it and provided a ram to sacrifice but also was symbolic of how God would provide a Lamb which was Jesus Christ. I also think you need to read Romans 9,10,11 again. Ismael has nothing to do with the Jews or the church, the promise was not through him. He was a product of unbelief and certainly not of faith in what \god said. 70 AD has nothing to do with the 70 weeks. 69 weeks was fulfilled up to the time Jesus was crucified and the 70th week will be fulfilled during the 7 yrs of tribulation. The church will be gone and FATHER God once again will deal with HIS people the Jews. Because Jesus said that they will no longer see him UNTIL they say " blessed is he that come in the name of the LORD"
Luke 13:34,35
O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not!
Behold, your house is left unto you desolate: and verily I say unto you, Ye shall not see me, until the time come when ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.
That hasn't happened yet but it will when the persecution of the Jews during tribulation period and when there are ready to be annihilated by the antichrist
They will CALL on the name of the LORD THAN JESUS will come and save them as ZECH 14: 1-21 states
I KNOW your theology is wrong with this FACT.
ISRAEL exists and is there against all the odds, totally surrounded by their enemies and has always been victorious. They will continue to be there not because they are obedient but because God made a promise and established his covenant with the Abraham and the Jewish people forever.
God says I will bless those who bless the Jews and curse those who curse the Jews so we must be careful. God brought them back into the land as he promised
Jer 16:14-16
Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that it shall no more be said, The LORD liveth, that brought up the children of Israel out of the land of Egypt;
But, The LORD liveth, that brought up the children of Israel from the land of the north, and from all the lands whither he had driven them: and I will bring them again into their land that I gave unto their fathers.
Behold, I will send for many fishers, saith the LORD, and they shall fish them; and after will I send for many hunters, and they shall hunt them from every mountain, and from every hill, and out of the holes of the rocks.
That has and is being fulfilled in our day in fact for the last 100 yrs or so.
So LONG live the Jews and the NATION of ISRAEL, AMEN
You have missed the point. The reason God provided the lamb is because he would not allow the "actual" slaying of Isaac, but the testimony of Hebrews 11:17-19 is clear.
Since apparently you didn't read it, I will quote it here.
"By faith Abraham, when he was tested, OFFERED UP ISAAC, and he who had received the promises OFFERED UP HIS ONLY BEGOTTEN SON, of whom it was said, 'In Isaac your seed shall be called," concluding that God was able to RAISE HIM UP, even from the DEAD, from which he also received him in a figurative sense. Heb. 11:17-19.
What you are failing to understand here is that actions begin in the mind with decisions. Abraham's faith was an obedient faith and in "his mind", he offered up Isaac. That is the whole point of Hebrews 11:17-19. What you overlook is that had God not stopped Abraham from carrying out the act which he had already concluded in his mind, Isaac would have been a dead corpse. Abraham's faith was so strong that he believed God would raise Isaac back to physical life.
But in doing so, that would not have made the point God was making and which you appear to be unable to comprehend. Since Abraham did "offer up" Isaac in mind, thus, Isaac was dead, God by giving the ram, "raised Isaac from death". That may be a concept beyond the zeal you have for Israel at this moment, but otherwise the text in Hebrews makes no sense at all. Rather, it serves as God's divine commentary on the event in Gen. 22:1-12.
It is also apparent that Paul's application in Gal. 4:21-31 is misunderstood. There, he does call national Israel (the ancient nation which has nothing to do with the 1948 settlement) Ishmael, saying they are sons of Hagar, the Egyptian and were in bondage with her children. Why? Because they were under the Law, the yoke of bondage, (Acts 15:10; Gal. 3:23; 4:3; 5:1). Ishmael in Gal. 4 "is" symbolically representative of national Israel who rejected Christ. "For this Hagar is Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage which is Hagar, for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is [at the time of writing] and is in bondage with her children. That is national unbelieving Israel and the literal, physical city of Jerusalem and they were in fact called ISHMAEL by the Holy Spirit and Paul.
Now observe how Paul further applies it.
"Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are children of promise. But, as he who was born according to the flesh then persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, even so it is now.
Who is it that persecuted the saints (Christians). It was the Jews, national Israel. Can't read Acts through Revelation and miss that point, i.e. (Acts 8:1-4; 1 Thess. 2:14-16; Phil. 3:18-19, a host of other texts.
So what was the conclusion? CAST OUT, the BONDWOMAN and HER SON for the son of the bondwoman (Ishmael who represents national unbelieving Israel) shall not be hear with the son of the freewoman (Isaac the persecuted Christians made up of believing Israel and Gentiles, thus Paul's all Israel/true Israel.
For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh; but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God. (Rom. 2:28-29).
This is why Jesus, speaking to Christians (Diaspora believing Jews and Gentiles), repeated his words spoken to the unbelieving Jews in John 8:44 saying, "I know the blasphemy of those who say they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan." (Rev. 2:9). Indeed I will make those of the synagogue of Satan, who say they are Jews and are not, but lie--indeed I will make them come and worship before your feet, and to know that I have loved you. (Rev. 3:9).
In their flesh, they were the seed of Abraham. in their hearts for rejecting Christ and persecuting the saints, they were the seed of Satan, the "tares" of the field" that were burned in the end of the age when the temple was destroyed.
Repeating Brown's statement, "that hasn't happened yet" for Matt. 23:34-37 is tragic. Those events would come in "this generation" i.e. the first century generation, the very one living at the time the words were spoken. The same is true for the great tribulation, which Jesus said would occur before that same generation passed, Matt. 24:21, 34.
The prophecy in Jeremiah would take place in the last days, i.e. the days are coming...The text doesn't end in verse 16, but carries straight through to the time of the coming in of the Gentiles. That brings us right back to Romans 9, 10, 11, 15 in the time of Paul, the establishing of the New Covenant in the first century.
History, even America claimed to be Israel during the time of "Manifest Destiny" so there's nothing new about a people usurping a name for land-grabbing, breaching of treaties, feigned peace initiatives, illegal occupation, and ethnic cleansing all the while leaving behind them a "Trail of Tears" and "Nakba".
That people who call themselves Christians support such immoral acts confirms the Ishmael Spirit Paul spoke of in the N.T.
That welcoming back can happen for any individual who acknowledge and welcomes Jesus as Lord and Savior. Many have. Not necessarily a national thing at all.
Dr. Brown rocks!!
This debate as good as it is shows something very sad and frightening about bad hermeneutics, and the failure to let NT revelation enlighten the way and manner in which old testament prophecies on the Eschaton is to be interpreted and understood. essentially Dr Preston believes in a consummated eschatology and Dr Brown in the already- inaugurated and not yet consummated Eschatology. Dr Preston's view equates the end of the Old covenant epoch with both the beginning and consummation of the new covenant. whereas Dr Brown equates the end of the Old covenant to the inauguration of the New Covenant leading to its consummation at the end when Jesus physically comes to Judge the world and bring in the New heavens and earth. Although I don't fully agree with the details of the nature of the fulfillment of the promises to Jews at the end as postulated by Dr Brown, I agree with his scheme overall. However, I think Dr. Preston's view is really heretic as he denies the bodily resurrection and the recreation of the new heavens and earth. That to me is very serious and should be rejected vehemently since it undermines the hope of Christ in which he says he will raise his people up on the last day.
if the resurrection did not occur within the lifetime of when paul spoke of it (1 thes 4:16-17), then he as well as jesus must be identified as false prophets since god makes clear (ezek 12:21-28) that all prophecy henceforth will occur within the lifetime of that which it is spoken.
kevin lindquist You're making the common mistake of applying time limitations to God;
YHVH who can move anywhere HE pleases.
Try to read things pertaining to GOD, with "NO LIMITS," (as HE deserves!) and you'll be amazed at what H>S> will show u.
WOW
1:43:03 Dr Preston says '70 weeks were determined to put away sin...Daniel clearly shows Christ was to be cut off in the middle of that 70th week, that puts his death in April 25, AD31. And the "end" of the "week" was in autumn AD34. NOT AD 70 as Dr Preston says 1:43:46-1:43:55. It is this clumsy nailing down of the "end" that many of us, including myself, get confused with when not careful.
Just a tidbit of info for every one to consider in their studies.
Great Debate, I'd like to see a full response from Dr. Brown once he reads Dr. Preston's book. Preston's view, although well thought out, does lead to some other very serious problems which this debate couldn't touch on because of time constraints.
Dr. Brown if you read this.... perhaps it's time for you to write a new exhaustive response to some of the flaws within Full Preterism and Dispensational Pre-Tribulationism?
What flaws are there with preterism??
Alfonz Steww Alfonz, do you adhere to a Physical Resurrection of the Dead or the Physical Resurrection of Jesus?
Curious do Preterist adhere to Hyper Grace? Because the videos you "Liked" on your TH-cam channel are pretty sinful.
Jesus was raised physically as a sign of the prophet jonah. A physical resurrection of believers...no a corporate resurrection out of a body of death IE old covenant, causebthe blood of bulls and goats cant take away sin. into a corporate body in Christ.. and this is not my channel. Im at work on my partners channel, we share it.
SO here is my question for DR. Brown on "all the Jews will be saved", Does the term "all Jews will be saved" mean all Jews of a specific time frame? so how is the "all" apply to all the Jews who died rejecting Christ before that time arrives? it seem that if the all Jews simply refer to the Jews of a specific time where they will accept Christ, it will still be a remnant compared to all the Jews that died without Christ in over 2000 yrs. The all Jews will make no sense unless all that died without Christ were restituted back to G-d but that will be anti-biblical because now you are saying that the jews who died rejecting Christ has another plan of salvation that is not Christ....
Read the Scriptures. There's a time of testing coming for Israel. They will cry out. And He will hear them. No need to hyper focus. God knows those who are His and He hasn't forgotten them, per Romans 11-the same verses Don dresses up like a $2 whore to his own damnation.
The world to come has broken in - for 2K years and counting. NT Wright makes this same statement regarding the new is breaking in. The expectation is always, to say it one way: One day "sight" replaces "faith". Does the Scripture say "These three remain "Sight, Hope, Love, and the greatest of these is Sight." ? First the Natural, then the Spiritual. The first Adam is of the Earth (Natural) the second Adam is the Lord from Heaven (the spiritual). There is no third Adam from the earth mentioned in the Scriptures. Brother Don, well done, and Dr. Brown too, for presenting your positions. Blessings.
Great debate. Both hit very interesting points, but I would have to agree with Dr. Brown on this one. Yes, prophecies were fulfilled literally and they are yet to be fulfilled literally. I still have a hope for a remnant of Israel and where Jesus feet will touch the Mount of Olives physically and He will establish His millennial Kingdom as He planned and prophesied. Yes, He is on His throne reigning but He will come back and reign in a physical form on the earth as He promised.
Here is the problem you believe Jesus is coming to make his kingdom on earth Jesus said John 18:36 Jesus said, "My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jewish leaders. But now my kingdom is from another place."second you said again Jesus will make his kingdom on earth well how is that possible Jesus said John 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. ? So as you can see Mr Brown your claim that Jesus will have his kingdom on earth contradicts scripture If Jesus is coming back from where he is preparing a place for us that means he is not here because he said he is coming back again this contradicts scripture and why would we be on earth with him if he is preparing a place for us that is not here . Now you kept saying the earth did not come to an end yet there has been no fire on the mountians rivers burning stars falling from heaven read the Old Testament when God came in Judgment on the clouds of heaven to Old Babylon it said he returned in the same way then as Jesus will in Revelation but yet the earth never ended the stars never fell from heaven but yet the bible records this prophecy was fulfilled in BC Jesus also said John 5:19 Jesus gave them this answer: "Very truly I tell you, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does. ? So again Jesus will only do as he has seen the father do like wise when God came in Judgment in the OT Jesus will do in His second coming and that is in the spirit not a visible coming
Dr. Brown did not know what he signed up for. I doubt he will do this again.
Brown is a desperate bitter angry man of the flesh! I have my doubt if he's even saved
I have a real problem that I do not believe is answered properly. Is modern day ethnic Israel HEBREW DESCENT? Not do they speak the language but are they really of HEBREW DESCENT? Who are these people really?
If people believed the fullness of Truth God will save EVERY ONE in the end that's the only reason he shed his BLOOD in the first place... people wouldn't be carried away with all winds of Doctrines
I can't see any other way to get to Dr Preston's view than by completely reading everything you believe into the text.
Both made excellent points.
I have analyzed all interpretations of eschatology and can honestly say it is literally the most difficult aspect of all theology.
Have a wonderful day
@@jilesbo9175 please understand that I'm not saying his view is wrong. But simply that that's the nature of his view. I'm just putting it out there.
@@sean_fisher I understand. One week I take one side the next week the other. And I go through this cycle endlessly. Anyway I continue to seek the truth as the hand of time continues to fall. Take care
@@jilesbo9175 haha, I guess that's all we can do until we know some day. Same to you brother.
Michael Brown argues that Israel has not yet heard "Blessed is he that comes in the name of the Lord" [Matt 23:39,] a statement Jesus quoted from Psalm 118:26. However, this author iimplies that it was common practice for local Jews to use those exact words to greet Jews from other nations to the Passover celebration. According to her, the last time the Jews made that statement was near the end of the Jewish-Roman War of 66-70 A.D.:
_"[T]he Jews considered this skirmish [with the Romans] a great triumph. Caesar as they called the son of Vespasian had been forced to fly! It was, in their eyes, the pledge and promise of their ultimate victory. Titus had not escaped unharmed; he was severely wounded."_
_"From the Far East, from Antioch and Egypt, Asia Minor and Cyprus, thousands of Jews, confiding in the inaction of Vespasian, had flocked to Jerusalem to celebrate this the last Passover. _*_For the last time worshippers approached the Temple gates singing the usual Psalms of Degrees; for the last time they were welcomed by the greeting, "Blessed be he that cometh in the name of the Lord!"_*_ and answered the priests' welcome with the words, "We have wished you good luck ye who are of the House of the Lord!" [Elizabeth Wormeley Latimer, "Judea from Cyrus to Titus 537 BC-70 AD." A. C. McClurg & Co., 1899, p.345]_
Dan
And one said to the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, “How long shall the fulfillment of these wonders be?” Then I heard the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand to heaven, and swore by Him who lives forever, that it shall be for a time, times, and half a time; (3.5 YEARS, the same time of the destruction of Jerusalem by Rome from 66.5 AD to 70 AD) and when THE POWER OF THE HOLY PEOPLE has been completely shattered, all these things shall be finished....And he said, “Go your way, Daniel, for the words are closed up and sealed till the TIME OF THE END. (Not the end of time... there is a difference. It was the time of the end of the power of the holy people, YOUR people, ie natural Jerusalem as the center of God's covenant.Isaiah 2:1, "The word that Isaiah the son of Amoz saw CONCERNING JUDAH and JERUSALEM, Now it shall come to pass in the LATTER DAYS That the mountain of the Lord’s house Shall be established on the top of the mountains, And shall be exalted above the hills; And all nations shall flow to it.In describing the mountain of the Lord's house that all the nations would flow to (the Jerusalem which is above) as Paul described in Galatians 4:26, Isaiah says the latter days was first about JUDAH and JERUSALEM. This natural Jerusalem would be purged with fire (Isaiah 4:3-4). This was fulfilled in AD 70 when the city was burned by Rome and those who trusted Jesus a few years earlier fled the city (Matthew 24.
Psa 110:3 Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.
Paul said "we have NOW received the Atonement". How can that be changed to an atonement to Jacob in AD70? The blood of Christ's perfect sacrifice made the Atonement for all. No one waited till AD70 for that.
I may, not sure yet, but may accept partial preterism, but I don't see how I could ever accept full preterism. I'm still waiting to put on incorruption and immorality. I'm still looking forward to my glorious body fashioned like Jesus' glorious body. I don't believe the physical resurrection has already occurred. I don't believe we that are still on earth have received our salvation in full yet. I'm still looking forward to a time that there will be no more pain, death, or suffering of any kind for the children of God.
In contradiction to the statement by Michael Brown at the 1:33:30 mark, Jesus considered the prophets to be part of the law:
_"Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? [Psalms 82.6]" -- John 10:34 KJV_
_"But this cometh to pass, that the word might be fulfilled that is written in their law, They hated me without a cause. [Psalm 35:19]" -- John 15:25 KJV_
So did Paul
_"In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord. [Isaiah 28.11-12 LXX]" -- 1Cor 14:21 KJV_
Therefore, if Torah is fulfilled, so are the prophets. Jesus removed all doubt in Luke 21 with the words "all things which are written may be fulfilled":
_"And _*_when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh._*_ Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. _*_For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled."_*_ -- Luk __21:20__-22 KJV_
Dan
Dr Preston looks like a cross between Jerry Jones and Barry Switzer.
What kind of God would harden a people for 2,000 years + to send them all to hell? Of course He could if He wanted, but come on, He finished the mission and called everyone to trust Him
Dr. Brown won this debate 100%! There are a lot of PROPHECIES that are yet to be fulfil.
If all wasn't fulfilled to those to whom the oracles were spoken to then Jesus was a false prophet by the very definition of one. The 'last hour' that John was experiencing was not a vision or a prophesy. All prophets were sent to the nation of Israel in the old covenant UNTIL reconciliation to our father came, 70 AD.
Don Preston's voice is more powerful than Michael Brown.
The last shall come first and the first the last. Let us all be humble in the sight of the Lord . Jesus is our Messiah and through Him we have life. Let not the worldly things of this earth distract and divide is. We are all brothers and sisters in Christ. So what the Jrews see gentiles lesser than them? Rejoice everyone for we have salvation through Hesus Christ. Let us trust God is making His royal decision. I was gridgeful about the privileges that ethnic Jews have over non Hewd for some time but I Gid brought me to a place of repentance and humility. May I decrease and He increase. God knows how to judge us all so let Gin decide all of the inheritance details. We have enough things in our flesh to deal with in this earth. I struggle with pride, jealousy and doubt. As the days go by as a true Christian who hungers for righteousness, may my sins decrease by the power of God and Ge be glorified through me.
Replacement Theology=Right Theology.
Its not really a replacement of Israel. Not all Israel was ever Israel. It was only ever those who had true faith in God, not their physical nation.
Question, does the Bible indicate that when I die I will go to heaven or hell. If so, how can it be said that ALL prophecy has been fulfilled?
I’m glad they are both so respectful, Dr Preston made some good points but seems to jump around a lot and need extremely long explanations for what sounds like far fetched ways of interpretation in my opinion. Like they said it’s a fundamental difference in how we look at it but the millennial reign makes a lot of big changes clear that aren’t at all apparent even if some are spiritual there is no explanation for a lot of the things that will be completely different in preterism.
The death of Jesus Christ brought an end to all O.T. prophecies. Rom.10:4 and the resurrection of Jesus opened the New, Better Covenant with the house of Isreal, Jer. 31:31-47; Heb. 8:1-13; 9, 12 and every other other nations upon the face of the earth. Gen.22:18 After His ascension, Jesus comissioned His apostles to take the Gospel of the Kingdom to every nation upon the earth. (Mk. 16:15-16) Upon entering Jerusalem, Book of Acts, the Holy Spirit came upon the apostles, Peter standing up and by the authority of Spirit, preached the GOSPEL of the KINGDOM to the entire house of Israel. Acts 2:36-47 NOTE the only group of people present on the Day of Pentecost were [JEWS] From that group of Jews, more than 3000 men, women, boys and girls established the first body of the church. Yes, the same church body we are build upon today. Eph. 2:1-20
Well if matt 24 is Christ teachings concerning his parousia or second coming, is the physical land restored? or desolated by the abomination of desolation ( rome ). Seems to me that the physical land is detroyed, temple falls, armies surround Jerusalem, flee out of judea. Think about it. Also the gathereing of the elect from the 4 winds, or to say it a different way. the gathering unto Christ by the preaching of the gospel. Paul stated 32 years later in his epistles that the gospel or great comission had already been fulfilled. He said it 3 or 4 times. col 1:6,has gone to all the world ( roman world context ) col 1:23, rom 16 has gone to all nations, etc. Is this what Messiah ment in matt 10:23 before the gospel had gone thru the cities of Israel '' I will have come back in my Kingdom ''. There are so many more too.
Both Judah and the others did in fact recognize Jesus as their leader on Pentecost. It is the New Jerusalem that will never be destroyed again because it is the heavenly Jerusalem.
NOT Until Ezekiel 20:33-38 is fulfilled, The Children Of Israel are not yet restored into the Holy Land.as is prophesied in verses #35-36.." And I will bring you into the wilderness of the people, and THERE WILL I PLEAD WITH YOU FACE TO FACE Like as I pleaded with your fathers in the wilderness of the land of Egypt, so will I plead with you, saith the Lord God."-Eze 20:35-36
According to Ezekiel's prophecy, the restoration of Israel is in the future. There must be a FACE to FACE encounter with The Most High before The Restoring of anyone into that Holy Land...period.!
Yeah try the book of ezra and Nehemiah
Zion Bound 'Cast out the bondwoman and her son for she shall never inherit with the free woman.' Fulfilled in the first century. Old Covenant Israel was the bondwoman in slavery to a cruel MASTER. She was stripped of her royal robes and burnt in the fire as required by law for a harlot/whore. Whore of Babylon = She had the blood of the prophets, Messiah and saints on her hands.
Zion Bound In Hebrews it is said that Abraham thought so little of the land that he did not own any of it and was looking for a City who's Builder and Maker was God. The book of Hebrews stated as they were losing their land to the persecution of the so called Jews that they had a Better Possession.
The irony of the zionist christian error is that a jewish scientist in the state of Israel showed that many of the people driven out by the state of Israel had more in common DNA with Jacob than the people now ruling the state of Israel.