A sofisticated design for the pleasure, for eyes and for technicians. One of the most beautiful product of hp workstations.. and it is very heavy. The panel door weight 10 times a normal atx tower door. It looks like a security door. And the internal locking covers or the hot plug power supply...the internal design is gorgeous
The lineage of these Z-Station cases probably begins with the HP Blackbird, which had similar features and design but took a standard ATX motherboard and power supply. You could actually order the case alone with nothing in it from HP, but good luck finding one complete system or not, though, they were very (very) expensive.
I think it was the other way around, HP decided to take features from their tower servers and workstations to their gaming PCs, and the Blackbird case was one such attempt.
@@s8wc3 Z workstations are the successors of XW workstations....Xw8000 & XW8200 (socket 604), XW8400 & XW8600 (socket 771) all dual cpu workstations.(there also existed XW9XXX with AMD cpu's) and before that there was the Compaq W8000 dual socket 603 no gaming lineage.
It's nice, for sure, but it looks like a direct response to the PowerMac G5/Mac Pro, which were certainly several years ahead of this HP. The cooling "channels", tool-less drive mounting, fan power plug integrated into the fan ducts, clean cabling, etc, are all shamelessly ripped from the G5... though they used less polycarbonate and more cheap ABS plastic lol.
@@dregenius Was the PowerMac G5 as modular? All the Macs today seem to be large-scale integration with no upgradeability (other than USB etc.), with the exception of the Mac Pro. I'm not a Mac guy so I don't really know.
lots of these work stations , HP, dell, etc were some of the best buys as gaming PC's after 2010. you could pick them up on newegg, or wherever, used for cheap & they came with 4-8core, 8-16 thread CPU's, & Ram. it left you needing a GPU, & a better PSU, but it was a great budget way of buying a gaming PC, without spending a ton of cash
Thank you. I just got one early last summer. While I have been using it very happily, I want to clean it, but when I opened the case it was very intimidating. Now I have full confidence to clean it.
Love these machines. Bought three of them for my recording studio. Theyre reliable and powerful. Two hexcore processors in each and a ton of ram. They dont break a sweat when handling DAW duties and lots of plugins. Theyre really cheap now. Bought my third one for $650 three years ago.
@@PlaywithJunk Thats the only thing that went down on one of my machines. Bought a new one and all is good. When Im ready Im gonna upgrade my main machine to one of the newer Z machines. Ill use the current ones I have as servers to load up large VST sample libraries. I have become a big fan of these machines. Horsepower to spare, dead quiet and very reliable.
I have two of these, from 2008, both with the original water-cooling. They still serve as my main machines and they work great! Btw, they were designed by BMW's design division!
I have a Z600 with single quad-core Xeon, 12GB RAM, a SSD/mechanical HDD storage system, and a Quadro card that runs SolidWorks. It's still quite good.
Nice to see a workstation built with efficiency at its core - not quite so brutal as some other offerings. Worth mentioning that the consumer equivalent of the Quadro 2000 is the GeForce GTS 450. Both use the Fermi architecture.
watching this from a HP Z840, looks almost the same inside other than the fans are all in the CPU cover which can only come off after taking the PCIe cover off :) lovely machines
Designed so all the parts that commonly fail are FRU's ( Field Replaceable Units) so that downtime is minimal, plus the field service agent can carry around a small stock of them, and go to a lot more calls in a single day. Done to reduce service call time only, as you would have to get the parts from HP themselves, so not having a close to industry standard part made sense to them. Mainboard likely does not allow any other boards to fit in, despite looking almost industry standard from a backplane and connector side, though you can see that this board is meant to have both PCI and ISA boards fit in the slots, so likely this unit was very popular with manufacturers who had older process control or interfaces, as they could use the old ISA card interfaces on it. Not many old machines that had ISA bus cards ever were upgraded to get a PCI version of the card. Either the manufacturer had obsoleted the range, they no longer had the in house design knowledge of the card to actually design the PCI version,very common, likely they only had the final version of the software and ROM's, but no source code or only a very poor version, all the original designers with the knowledge being long gone, as they were "expensive" to have around, cutting into executive bonus. Otherwise the original company had gone through a few M&A cycles, so nobody there actually knew anything, and the range had been obsoleted for this reason. I can see why this range would be desirable, and probably sought after, even if your spare parts were expensive, but still probably available from HPE at a price, as no doubt they also are still doing full managed leases on these machines as well. They probably at end of lease are taking them back, and keeping in a warehouse, as a source of spares as well.
Those HP workstations are pretty neat. Used they are reasonably cheap too. I own a Z620 myself and that thing simply does the job. I dont think I will ever chose another brand in future, when the Hardware stays that great.
Yes, classics! So much better than later models. The highest spec Z800's also had AiO watercooling, wonder if any are still alive after 12 years. I also love the Zbook series, until the G5. The later ones are rubbish, we had 2 new G6's that both went to RMA within a year and our G5V's would lose CMOS settings after 2-3 months of no use...they use internal battery as CMOS backup.
Yep, I still have a z800 and 400 and xw8600. The 800 and 8600 both have 2 Xeons, the max amount of Ram, and a NVidia QuadroThe 400 has 1 xeon and maxed RAM... All Running Windows 7 Pro or RHEL like new! I am using them instead of my 12 Core 2697 128 GB RAM MAc Pro 6,1. It will probably Keep up if I drop the Ram to 96 GB, though.
The chassis I'm using for a main rig right now was originally a 386/486 era server. It sits on casters on the floor, and has 14 half-height (CD-ROM sized) 5.25" bays, with 4 of them exposed to the front. Originally, it held full height SCSI drives. But airflow was an afterthought when this chassis was designed.
You can add a passthrough card that allows to connect an external storage chassis to the internal SAS ports. Seen it in HP Part Surfer but sadly I don't remember the part number.
Want a little Z800 noise and heat? Go to Power -> Thermal in the BIOS and put the fan slider all to the right! XD Love this machine: Is my everyday workstation and never disappointed me. You can have 96GB of ECC DDR3 without breaking the bank. Mine even boots from PCIE NVME using CloverBoot. Win 10 works like a charm. and recognizes all the devices. Add a nice graphics card and you can even game on this beauty. A real budget workhorse. Hope I can upgrade to a Z840 in the future.
I have one of these I've just set up as a retro Windows XP gaming machine, 1 x Xeon X5677 with 12gb of RAM, and it came with an Quadro FX1800 I upgraded to a Quadro FX3800 for $30 😂 It flies! I love it!! Plays everything from 1985 right through to about 2015 on max settings with ease! Little tip, if you disable the ROM boot options for SAS and ethernet, it posts so much quicker!! I was even able to set up file sharing between XP and my Win 11 PC so when I download games, I can just copy them straight to the XP machine without using USB sticks!! Next upgrade will be possibly a 256gb M2 Drive if I can find a converter!
I was given one of these a couple of years ago and I'm now using it in my workshop. Imagine a 2009 Apple product still being so useful. Upgrades / repairs: SSD boot drive with Windows 10. Replaced a bad memory module (ran fine without it, but it was a very cheap fix), has 24GB total. Replaced a filter capacitor in the PSU when it went up in smoke. I had a decent modern graphics card lying about so I installed that. My son says he can get a very respectable FPS from Minecraft on it. It's a little noisy compared to a domestic PC (you will hear it a bit in the background of some of my TH-cam videos) but it's not noisy for a server.
I wonder... so many sata connectors but where do you leave the stuff that you can connect to it? Also, the information inside the side cover seems to be upside down, do you/can you take the cover off completely to make it more readable? Seems a bit strange...
Maybe you could remove 3.5" drives and instead mount 2 2.5" laptop style drives (SSD today) in one slot :-) Maybe HP offered a 2.5" disk cage as an alternative, they seem to like those.
I modified some of those Z800 when they were new. You can put two SSD's into one drawer and add some SATA cables. But I have never seen one using all ports. Maybe they used that board in another system?
Amazing and well-built workstation. The Z800 motherboard is very popular among modders along with atx adapters. U need a pretty large case though. There's ton of Z800 motherboards on eBay.
Had similar machine around 2012, two Xeons, 6 cores with hyper-threading each, 24 threads in total, 64 GB RAM and nVidia Quadro. I never used more than 40 GB RAM. The CPUs were positioned a little bit differently, one was higher than the other, not in-line like in video. Don't remember the air flow shrouds. It was probably Z6xx series (?).
@@MarekKnapek They had to squander a budget instead of paying it in taxes rather, but hey, lucky guys! Good stuff you can pick them up now for chips, slap a couple of v4 in there with a couple of Ampere GPUs as well becoming cheap a freight train full of Ram, and you got yourself some special PC at home, I am getting rid of all my consumer grade, it's a waste of time and money, you don't imagine how many old mobos, wires, plugs cases, fans and whatever it is you pick up along in 30 years of building shit that always works half way. When I built my last computer 10 years ago, they cost an arm and a leg, a 6 core was all I could find for a reasonable price, then the GPUs and so on, not worth anymore. I have 2 z840 and a macbook pro now and I am not looking back, that's all I need.
Feel for you. Why'd you retire it? And, what do you do after you retire it? I just had my main File Server fail / crash hard on me. Kills me. But, I'd been planning to upgrade or change it out, and now, it is forcing me to. I don't trust it anymore. Screwed up my drives or data (I think). Don't know, haven't been here before. But, I'm finding my way back. I live in Houston, Texas, and I think a power surge or something fried the board or screwed some things up. It will boot, but it doesn't seem to see some of the Sata ports. But, before this, it was working perfectly.
hello sir, I bought a second hand hp z800 workstation for interior designing purpose. I used it for two months. After that im facing some problems.1st is beep sound with red light on cpu's power button, at that time whole fans will work with huge noise. at this time I will switch off the cpu directly. and the second problem is a warning message(no video input available) showing in the monitor . i have already removed dust from all ram and graphic card. what is the reason behind this problem. can you help me please???????
Your second problem, the error message "no video input available" comes from the monitor itself. You get the same message if you turn on your monitor with nothing connected at all. That means your monitor doesn't get a video signal from the workstation. Your first problem, the beep... count the beeps! Is it one or two or more beeps? Long or short beeps? Then google for "HP Z800 beep codes" or look out for the user and service manual. Beep codes and LED codes are explained there. It is also possible that the power supply doesn't work properly. As a general procedure, remove all parts from the system that are not essential for turning it on. For example remove the graphics card and check if it turns on. Remove all RAM except one module. Does it have 2 CPU's? remove one of them. Minimalizing is the keyword!
I've got a z840 with dual 2640 v4s. I love this thing, so sexy looking. I bought it for architectural design software and creative use of depth sensing tech experiments. It's a Freight train but can turn quite snappy with a few upgrades.
Ich habe zwei HP Z800. Ich bin mega zufrieden und glücklich damit. 🤗 Einer davon ist aktuell mein "daily driver", so wie man es so schön sagt. Windows 10, Windows 11 läuft darauf einwandfrei mit alle meinen Programmen/Anwendungen. 👍
Great video, thanks. If you add a decent GPU, 64gb of memory and a data SSD you can use modern video editing software like Magix Vegas Pro to edit 4K compressed or uncompressed video on the Z800.
That thing would make a great Home media Server with the amount of SATA ports. That is if you ignore the power consumption :D Somthing like Unraid with Plex would propably work great with it. Edit : I just found out they are still hella expesive... They still cost more than 600 $ for basic systems.
It depends on your mechanical skills. There is enough room for any board but you will need to make new mountings and cutouts. You also need a new power supply. Those systems are HP-custom-everything... no stock parts used except disk drives. :-)
I've just been given one of these minus its big graphics cards "because Pete can always use the metal sides to build stuff"... (i have a medium machinists lathe & mill set up at home). I think i might have to resurrect the machine just for fun. It surely is incredibly well set up for all the airflow cooling.
Grab a couple of quattros for chips and you can still do a lot or look for nvlink capable ones you can get something pretty decent, or A4000 if you come across at 500 or smth, I picked up two for 900 last week.
I would not, they eat a lot of power, like a LOT. I had a similar thing with dual X5690's and the whole rig would take about 150W idle. A simple i3, even a NUC would be plenty as a NAS and probably even faster, in the end.
Designed by BMW Nice machines and only fairly recently out paced by newer hardware. Still work okay as a general desktop.also see it's had the upgraded PSU. As you can tell from the pins on the case. Cheap version doesn't have them on the front side of the middle connection. Always like those machines, but not very practical these days.
What a great review! You went through all the interesting parts! Thinking of getting one of these! Would it be problematic to install Windows 10 on this you think?
Hallo! Ich bin erst vor kurzem auf deinen Kanal gestoßen - deine vids sind echt der Hammer! (Überhaupt das nostalgische Geraffel) ...aber ich muss oft bei einigen Beiträgen mehrmals sekundenweise vorskippen, weil dein Sprech manchmal dermaßen einschläfernd ist, wie eine Schlaftablette auf Valium. Sorry ob der Kritik und schöne Grüße aus der Steiermark
Nun ja, deutsch denken und englisch sprechen erfordert erhöhte CPU Leistung, da laggt der Output manchmal etwas. Aber ich denke es ist besser geworden wenn man mit den alten Videos vergleicht.... ;-)
Hello mr. Play with Junk and all users of the HP. I'm young and green owner of the HP Z620 :) could You give me professional advice? how to connect to this workstation SAS (server) hard drives, and what is the meaning of jumper "SAS OPT" on this mother board (right side of the mother board near RAM modules slots). I just put in the SATA dock SAS HDD drive and nothing happen, disc isn't visible not Windows 10 nor even BIOS :( could You please help me to solve this situation?
I'm not familiar with all the details but this workstation has a SATA controller and SAS disks will not work. Try to find an owners or service manual for the jumper. Try Google "HP Z620 quickspecs" that may help. You could install a PCI RAID controller like a HP P410 or 420 they are cheap now. Or jus a SAS HBA if you don't need RAID. And then connect your disks to that. SAS controllers can handle SAS and SATA drives. But SATA controllers can only SATA.
I liked the video. I wish you'd said its max memory and CPU cores & threads. This might be a cheap machine for a weekly backup unit or something. Don't know how much they are now.
@@PlaywithJunk Okay, sorry. I watched full video, but I skipped a little of the parts where it was stuff I already knew -- like opening the case, etc. But, yeah, nice hardware -- just its max is 384GB, I think. And it might have said each has 6 cores and 12 threads, so 24 threads. Nice, but the TDP is pretty high for that system. And, I can't believe that they are still so high in price. I'd pay (say) $150/$200 for one, maybe. But, not a $1000. Anyway, thanks for video. I really liked what you have done, and I learned stuff from it too.
@@PlaywithJunk It was probably disabled because of company policy regarding the Spectre and Meltdown related attack vectors with Intel's previous generation hyper-threading implementations. If I understand and remember the news correctly there is no guaranteed way to protect against these with hyper-threading enabled in Intel's chips before first Spectre related design changes.
Worked for an auctioneer a few lives ago. These were fairly common along with Z400's due to local government departments with silly budgets (this is not an anti-government comment, just one against neoliberal government, but I digress). Can honestly say never saw a single one of those covers, and I don't think there was ever one with a full compliment of drive caddies 🤣
@@PlaywithJunk nor at all, I think all these pieces went missing throughout their lifetime as being used by department heads to read their email on edit: probably just before they were decommissioned, some poor tech had to pull any parts of value (or just parts that could contain restricted information, it's amazing how many places still think they need to pull the dram) before sending them off to the auctions as basically ewaste. Easier for them to not put those parts back and probably got dumped separately
@@TimEckert How did you get the X5680's to work in a Z600? The Z600 officially supports up to 2x 95W X5675 and I haven't heard of anyone being able to use higher TDP CPUs in it. Z800 supports up to 2x X5690 which is the fastest for that socket.
Something I forgot to say in my last post: 56xx series CPUs does work in Z800's with 11/10/09 boot block date and motherboard revision 003. With revisions 001 and 002 it's a bit hit and miss. Some don't boot at all (stuck at black screen), some boot sometimes, some work without any issues. You can check the boot block date in the BIOS. The boot block date can't be updated so if you have an older version, I'd recommend getting a Xeon 55xx series CPUs. The fastest 4c/8t 55xx series dual socket CPUs: W5590 3.33GHz, W5580 3.2GHz and X5570 2.93GHz.
It's strange seeing a high end HP computer of this era, as a brand it has become less associated with high quality equipment but of course they still made some.
All companies make different tier products for different markets. The business/commercial lines in any brand are pretty nice. The consumer lines are all garbage. I exclusively run older commercial boxes at home. You can pick up machines that are 2 or 3 years old for pennies on the dollar of original prices, and they're built like tanks and run basically forver
Ist es frevelhaft wenn ich diese Schönheit gerne zerlegen würde? Hab schon geschaut das Teil kostet leider immer noch zwischen 400 und 800 Euro je nach Ausstattung. Ist mir dann doch zu teuer falls was kaputt geht.
SUN Microsystems also had some early models of Sparc 5 etc. that resembled much at the first Macintosh models. Either they are constantly spying each other or the engineers move from one company to another. Also the whole patenting war was not so developed then. Today Apple sues everyone who makes a round home button on their phones :-)
One of the Zx20 models (I think it was the 420) had a water cooled cpu. But the cooling solution was not so perfect. I guess that was more for marketing purposes... WE HAVE WATER COOLING!! :-)
Been trying to get my hands on one of these but it seems despite these being well over 10 years old now, the people who have and sell them seem to think they're made of pure gold and ask a fortune for them, which despite the overengineering they really aren't worth anymore. 300eur for a single CPU version with 8GB RAM and a Quadro NVS? 400+ for a (low-ish end) dual CPU version with 16GB RAM?! yeah no.fck that...
It'll last forever. Hey, what do I do if I don't wnat to connect fans to case power. Is there a way just to put fans somewhere (like external drive bay for cooling it) and just have their own power supply and some speed control dial? Or do you know of a way to do that? My extra drives get hot so I need a way to cool them in their drive bay.
Recentls took apart a Z400. Typical HP trash: Power supply uses standard 24pin ATX connector, but with a different pinout. 2 Pins that normally are +5V and +3.3V carry +12V on this thing. GREAT thing if you want to reuse the power supply or main board and dont see it until everything burns out.
Yeah if you start changing stuff it's a domino effect, especially the PSU, but they are not really marketed for donor pcs, each element is worth very little unless you need it for another one identical, otherwise it's the the engineering that goes in the orchestration of all those elements that makes it exceptional. Plus after building my own pcs since the 80ies I was fed up with fiddling and some many excess parts that are never good enough, now I want something that works well and fast and without headaches for long. I leave the kids playing with RGBs and light effects, it's as good as stickers on a car and waste current for nothing. I still need to understand who is the fucking moron that looks at his case while he works on his computer. Plus it depends what you do dual xenon are good for massively paralleled jobs across 2 GPUS and 256G?B of ram to take full advantage of what you have, not so much for gaming, that you can do while serving a website.
I've been meaning to do a video myself on my one of these but it's been in use as my home server for a couple years! Actually mine's a bit different - the fan assembly is much more elaborate on mine
@@PlaywithJunk Actually it was done with the help of a company called "Designworks" based in California that is owned by BMW. So It was not done by the engineers in Germany.
@@PlaywithJunk Ha, thats funny. I've seen a number of people repaint them as the sides end up being very badly scratched from poor handling and transport. I have two of them, one that I've owned from new and another that was made up from parts. A few years ago I got a brand new empty case when HP in Europe was dumping them for about 70 Euros each. Also had a new spare motherboard and faulty power supply that I rebuild using a server power supply that fits inside the proprietary PSU housing. In my case it was not caps as I had changed almost all of them except the 400v filter caps and once a week it would would still randomly turn off - possibly a bad smd component or fractured solider/track. For me aside from being a great computer it's also a piece of engineering artwork. Cheers.
I still use a Xeon CPU from this era that would have been sold with this. It works fine with modern apps. Computers haven't really gotten faster at the same rate as they were in the 90s, so old HW isn't that bad usually, as long as it was high-end in the first place. My biggest issue I'm facing now is that it doesn't have EFI, just legacy BIOS, so I can't upgrade to the latest GPUs. That's probably the only thing that would drive me towards a newer machine, and I'd probably only go two gens newer than this (Z840).
@@Manofcube I fully understand you. I have a DELL Power Edge T430 workstation fex that yes the cpu could be upgraded and such but wouldn't do especially much and it works just fine as is and have all what I need like EFI and so on so there isn't really any reason change it out for something faster. But if pre around say 2012 there could be some few issues even if EFI was invented several years before that but not really used much back then. The advantage with old but still somewhat modern enterprise things is that if not to new, they are not that especially expensive either.
In fact some old processors had faster clock speeds than many new ones. But fewer cores and a higher power consumption. If your running applications that use only a few cores, the old machines are probably faster.
A sofisticated design for the pleasure, for eyes and for technicians. One of the most beautiful product of hp workstations.. and it is very heavy. The panel door weight 10 times a normal atx tower door. It looks like a security door.
And the internal locking covers or the hot plug power supply...the internal design is gorgeous
Yeah, you got something for your money :-)
I wish they would make such nice cases for ATX style mainboards.
The lineage of these Z-Station cases probably begins with the HP Blackbird, which had similar features and design but took a standard ATX motherboard and power supply. You could actually order the case alone with nothing in it from HP, but good luck finding one complete system or not, though, they were very (very) expensive.
I think it was the other way around, HP decided to take features from their tower servers and workstations to their gaming PCs, and the Blackbird case was one such attempt.
ATX is a dated and thermally stupid design.
@@User0000000000000004 Still widely used.
@@s8wc3 Z workstations are the successors of XW workstations....Xw8000 & XW8200 (socket 604), XW8400 & XW8600 (socket 771) all dual cpu workstations.(there also existed XW9XXX with AMD cpu's) and before that there was the Compaq W8000 dual socket 603 no gaming lineage.
Engineers: So, how overengineered do you want it?
Management: YES
:-) very good!
I just love your videos. They never fail to be interesting and informative.
That HP was ahead of its time, and still is today!
Thank you! :-)
It's nice, for sure, but it looks like a direct response to the PowerMac G5/Mac Pro, which were certainly several years ahead of this HP. The cooling "channels", tool-less drive mounting, fan power plug integrated into the fan ducts, clean cabling, etc, are all shamelessly ripped from the G5... though they used less polycarbonate and more cheap ABS plastic lol.
@@dregenius Was the PowerMac G5 as modular? All the Macs today seem to be large-scale integration with no upgradeability (other than USB etc.), with the exception of the Mac Pro. I'm not a Mac guy so I don't really know.
lots of these work stations , HP, dell, etc were some of the best buys as gaming PC's after 2010. you could pick them up on newegg, or wherever, used for cheap & they came with 4-8core, 8-16 thread CPU's, & Ram. it left you needing a GPU, & a better PSU, but it was a great budget way of buying a gaming PC, without spending a ton of cash
Thank you. I just got one early last summer. While I have been using it very happily, I want to clean it, but when I opened the case it was very intimidating. Now I have full confidence to clean it.
Love these machines. Bought three of them for my recording studio. Theyre reliable and powerful. Two hexcore processors in each and a ton of ram. They dont break a sweat when handling DAW duties and lots of plugins. Theyre really cheap now. Bought my third one for $650 three years ago.
I agree... the only problem we had fom time to time was a defective power supply. Caused by aged capacitors.
@@PlaywithJunk Thats the only thing that went down on one of my machines. Bought a new one and all is good. When Im ready Im gonna upgrade my main machine to one of the newer Z machines. Ill use the current ones I have as servers to load up large VST sample libraries. I have become a big fan of these machines. Horsepower to spare, dead quiet and very reliable.
bought a pre loved one 4 years ago from ebay and still using it now for music production its a dream.
I have two of these, from 2008, both with the original water-cooling.
They still serve as my main machines and they work great!
Btw, they were designed by BMW's design division!
I have never seen that water cooling. Send me a picture to playwithjunk@gmail.com
I have jut bought 2 but more recent, they are incredibly good money for value.
I have a Z600 with single quad-core Xeon, 12GB RAM, a SSD/mechanical HDD storage system, and a Quadro card that runs SolidWorks. It's still quite good.
SSD will improve speed quite drastically on those older systems.
Nice to see a workstation built with efficiency at its core - not quite so brutal as some other offerings.
Worth mentioning that the consumer equivalent of the Quadro 2000 is the GeForce GTS 450. Both use the Fermi architecture.
watching this from a HP Z840, looks almost the same inside other than the fans are all in the CPU cover which can only come off after taking the PCIe cover off :) lovely machines
I'm not an HP fan but damn that is one nice design for sure. Love the way the PSU removes. No screws! YAY!
Designed so all the parts that commonly fail are FRU's ( Field Replaceable Units) so that downtime is minimal, plus the field service agent can carry around a small stock of them, and go to a lot more calls in a single day. Done to reduce service call time only, as you would have to get the parts from HP themselves, so not having a close to industry standard part made sense to them. Mainboard likely does not allow any other boards to fit in, despite looking almost industry standard from a backplane and connector side, though you can see that this board is meant to have both PCI and ISA boards fit in the slots, so likely this unit was very popular with manufacturers who had older process control or interfaces, as they could use the old ISA card interfaces on it.
Not many old machines that had ISA bus cards ever were upgraded to get a PCI version of the card. Either the manufacturer had obsoleted the range, they no longer had the in house design knowledge of the card to actually design the PCI version,very common, likely they only had the final version of the software and ROM's, but no source code or only a very poor version, all the original designers with the knowledge being long gone, as they were "expensive" to have around, cutting into executive bonus. Otherwise the original company had gone through a few M&A cycles, so nobody there actually knew anything, and the range had been obsoleted for this reason.
I can see why this range would be desirable, and probably sought after, even if your spare parts were expensive, but still probably available from HPE at a price, as no doubt they also are still doing full managed leases on these machines as well. They probably at end of lease are taking them back, and keeping in a warehouse, as a source of spares as well.
Those HP workstations are pretty neat. Used they are reasonably cheap too. I own a Z620 myself and that thing simply does the job. I dont think I will ever chose another brand in future, when the Hardware stays that great.
Lenovo P series FTW
Yes, classics! So much better than later models. The highest spec Z800's also had AiO watercooling, wonder if any are still alive after 12 years.
I also love the Zbook series, until the G5. The later ones are rubbish, we had 2 new G6's that both went to RMA within a year and our G5V's would lose CMOS settings after 2-3 months of no use...they use internal battery as CMOS backup.
I have a Z420 (not sure) with AIO watercooling... maybe I should make a video about that too :-)
Yep, I still have a z800 and 400 and xw8600. The 800 and 8600 both have 2 Xeons, the max amount of Ram, and a NVidia QuadroThe 400 has 1 xeon and maxed RAM... All Running Windows 7 Pro or RHEL like new! I am using them instead of my 12 Core 2697 128 GB RAM MAc Pro 6,1. It will probably Keep up if I drop the Ram to 96 GB, though.
14 SATA/SAS channels - that's my kind of motherboard. Wait, only 7 bays in the case?
The chassis I'm using for a main rig right now was originally a 386/486 era server. It sits on casters on the floor, and has 14 half-height (CD-ROM sized) 5.25" bays, with 4 of them exposed to the front. Originally, it held full height SCSI drives. But airflow was an afterthought when this chassis was designed.
You can add a passthrough card that allows to connect an external storage chassis to the internal SAS ports. Seen it in HP Part Surfer but sadly I don't remember the part number.
@@WalterFabian Yeah, be nice to know how that is done.
@@PoeLemic Found it ! HP Part 398299-001
Want a little Z800 noise and heat? Go to Power -> Thermal in the BIOS and put the fan slider all to the right! XD
Love this machine: Is my everyday workstation and never disappointed me.
You can have 96GB of ECC DDR3 without breaking the bank.
Mine even boots from PCIE NVME using CloverBoot.
Win 10 works like a charm. and recognizes all the devices.
Add a nice graphics card and you can even game on this beauty.
A real budget workhorse. Hope I can upgrade to a Z840 in the future.
I still daily drive a Z820, which is more a less the same machine a few generations newer. Love it still to this day.
I have one of these I've just set up as a retro Windows XP gaming machine, 1 x Xeon X5677 with 12gb of RAM, and it came with an Quadro FX1800 I upgraded to a Quadro FX3800 for $30 😂
It flies! I love it!! Plays everything from 1985 right through to about 2015 on max settings with ease!
Little tip, if you disable the ROM boot options for SAS and ethernet, it posts so much quicker!!
I was even able to set up file sharing between XP and my Win 11 PC so when I download games, I can just copy them straight to the XP machine without using USB sticks!! Next upgrade will be possibly a 256gb M2 Drive if I can find a converter!
I was given one of these a couple of years ago and I'm now using it in my workshop. Imagine a 2009 Apple product still being so useful.
Upgrades / repairs: SSD boot drive with Windows 10. Replaced a bad memory module (ran fine without it, but it was a very cheap fix), has 24GB total. Replaced a filter capacitor in the PSU when it went up in smoke. I had a decent modern graphics card lying about so I installed that. My son says he can get a very respectable FPS from Minecraft on it.
It's a little noisy compared to a domestic PC (you will hear it a bit in the background of some of my TH-cam videos) but it's not noisy for a server.
“Imagine a 2009 Apple product still being so useful”
*Mac Pro 4,1 entered the chat* 😉
I wonder... so many sata connectors but where do you leave the stuff that you can connect to it?
Also, the information inside the side cover seems to be upside down, do you/can you take the cover off completely to make it more readable? Seems a bit strange...
Maybe you could remove 3.5" drives and instead mount 2 2.5" laptop style drives (SSD today) in one slot :-)
Maybe HP offered a 2.5" disk cage as an alternative, they seem to like those.
I modified some of those Z800 when they were new. You can put two SSD's into one drawer and add some SATA cables. But I have never seen one using all ports. Maybe they used that board in another system?
I was thinking "spared no expense" might be a little exaggeration... until you pulled out the power supply 😮
The E5640 does have HyperThreading so it's most likely disabled in the BIOS
Where do you put the wiper fluid!?
And the graphics juice!!
There is a Z420 (I think...) model with a water cooled CPU. But I doubt that is much better that a conventional cooling because they made it wrong.
Amazing and well-built workstation. The Z800 motherboard is very popular among modders along with atx adapters. U need a pretty large case though. There's ton of Z800 motherboards on eBay.
I've got a Z400 that I'm still using as a home server. That one isn't nearly as fancy inside - just looks like any regular old HP desktop.
BlackEpyon , Time to recap?
@@BruceNitroxpro I'll have to check inside, but by the point this came out, most of the "cheap" capacitors had been flushed from the market.
Stock issue at Google as a Linux machine. I love it. A newer version now. I wish all hardware was built like this.
Had similar machine around 2012, two Xeons, 6 cores with hyper-threading each, 24 threads in total, 64 GB RAM and nVidia Quadro. I never used more than 40 GB RAM. The CPUs were positioned a little bit differently, one was higher than the other, not in-line like in video. Don't remember the air flow shrouds. It was probably Z6xx series (?).
Depends what you had but in 2012 those would cost like 15 grand or something.
@@thewizardsofthezoo5376 Yes, expensive as fuck, company bought bunch of them by mistake or something. Nobody at the office was complaining. (-:
@@MarekKnapek They had to squander a budget instead of paying it in taxes rather, but hey, lucky guys! Good stuff you can pick them up now for chips, slap a couple of v4 in there with a couple of Ampere GPUs as well becoming cheap a freight train full of Ram, and you got yourself some special PC at home, I am getting rid of all my consumer grade, it's a waste of time and money, you don't imagine how many old mobos, wires, plugs cases, fans and whatever it is you pick up along in 30 years of building shit that always works half way.
When I built my last computer 10 years ago, they cost an arm and a leg, a 6 core was all I could find for a reasonable price, then the GPUs and so on, not worth anymore.
I have 2 z840 and a macbook pro now and I am not looking back, that's all I need.
I just retired a Z440 as my main workstation, not as physically overengineered, but it was a lovely machine right up to the end.
Feel for you. Why'd you retire it? And, what do you do after you retire it? I just had my main File Server fail / crash hard on me. Kills me. But, I'd been planning to upgrade or change it out, and now, it is forcing me to. I don't trust it anymore. Screwed up my drives or data (I think). Don't know, haven't been here before. But, I'm finding my way back. I live in Houston, Texas, and I think a power surge or something fried the board or screwed some things up. It will boot, but it doesn't seem to see some of the Sata ports. But, before this, it was working perfectly.
@@PoeLemic it died in December, not sure why, I have a Lenovo now which is ok.
i want it !!! this is the most overkill computer based workstation i never seen !
hello sir, I bought a second hand hp z800 workstation for interior designing purpose. I used it for two months. After that im facing some problems.1st is beep sound with red light on cpu's power button, at that time whole fans will work with huge noise. at this time I will switch off the cpu directly.
and the second problem is a warning message(no video input available) showing in the monitor .
i have already removed dust from all ram and graphic card. what is the reason behind this problem. can you help me please???????
Your second problem, the error message "no video input available" comes from the monitor itself. You get the same message if you turn on your monitor with nothing connected at all. That means your monitor doesn't get a video signal from the workstation.
Your first problem, the beep... count the beeps! Is it one or two or more beeps? Long or short beeps? Then google for "HP Z800 beep codes" or look out for the user and service manual. Beep codes and LED codes are explained there.
It is also possible that the power supply doesn't work properly.
As a general procedure, remove all parts from the system that are not essential for turning it on. For example remove the graphics card and check if it turns on. Remove all RAM except one module. Does it have 2 CPU's? remove one of them. Minimalizing is the keyword!
This looks like a nice workstation even after the years passed.
I still use it. Its a fantastic machine. I have Z820 also.
I still use a Z800 with X-series Xeons and maxed out 48GB of RAM as a home server. I see no need to upgrade so long as it keeps working.
I've got a z840 with dual 2640 v4s. I love this thing, so sexy looking. I bought it for architectural design software and creative use of depth sensing tech experiments. It's a Freight train but can turn quite snappy with a few upgrades.
Same and I just picked up 2 x2698v4 for 165 quid.
Is this a good starter pc with some upgrading
It's always pretty cool to see your videos 😊
12:58 Even the newest HP Z8 Workstation still has PS/2 ports and serial port
Really? I would not expect that....
That cpu does have 8 threads, you just didn't turn hyperthreading on in the bios.
Why are Windows sounds heard through the internal speaker?
Why not? Its a fully capable audio speaker, not only a beeper. Many (older) PC's can do that. If you plug in the headphone jack, it will turn off.
You have to insert the "spared no expense!" movie clip like Dave Jones does :-)
Why though? This channel isn’t Eevblog, so why should he imitate Dave Jones?
There’s nothing wrong with his videos, imho...
To be honest.... I think i know that expression from Daves videos. I watch them quite often. :-)
Can you boost the video volume at least 4 to 6dB, it's barely audible over the smallest ambient noise even at full volume
Next time I will use proper mics again....
Ich habe zwei HP Z800. Ich bin mega zufrieden und glücklich damit. 🤗
Einer davon ist aktuell mein "daily driver", so wie man es so schön sagt.
Windows 10, Windows 11 läuft darauf einwandfrei mit alle meinen Programmen/Anwendungen. 👍
We have these at work; I had no idea there was that much going on inside.
That happens often. People have stuff and no idea about the insides... :-)
Iv'e just bought the Z820 with windows 10...great so far...I never realised there was a "secret draw for my stash though"...lol
.. But can it fit a Dark rock pro 4 cpu cooler?. ..
Z840 FTW!! I also love Lenovo P workstations, especially the P920. P920 is effing sexy!
Yeah that looks nice too. I just don't like how the first CPU blows it's hot air directly into the second CPU...
Great video, thanks. If you add a decent GPU, 64gb of memory and a data SSD you can use modern video editing software like Magix Vegas Pro to edit 4K compressed or uncompressed video on the Z800.
A very,very well thought out. and designed machine!
if only they would design and build consumer computers l of this quality. . . .
My brother has two of these. One is connected to a storage array and is used to serve files and streaming media.
That thing would make a great Home media Server with the amount of SATA ports.
That is if you ignore the power consumption :D
Somthing like Unraid with Plex would propably work great with it.
Edit : I just found out they are still hella expesive...
They still cost more than 600 $ for basic systems.
What modern motherboards fit these cases
It depends on your mechanical skills. There is enough room for any board but you will need to make new mountings and cutouts. You also need a new power supply. Those systems are HP-custom-everything... no stock parts used except disk drives. :-)
@@PlaywithJunk thanks for the response.
this case was designed along with BMW. you may notice the BMW touches, along with a heavy duty car door style handle
I've just been given one of these minus its big graphics cards "because Pete can always use the metal sides to build stuff"... (i have a medium machinists lathe & mill set up at home). I think i might have to resurrect the machine just for fun. It surely is incredibly well set up for all the airflow cooling.
If you to resell.. Contact me.. I really like to have this machine..
Grab a couple of quattros for chips and you can still do a lot or look for nvlink capable ones you can get something pretty decent, or A4000 if you come across at 500 or smth, I picked up two for 900 last week.
Those workstations are surprisingly cheap. I may have to buy one to live out its life as a NAS server...
I would not, they eat a lot of power, like a LOT. I had a similar thing with dual X5690's and the whole rig would take about 150W idle.
A simple i3, even a NUC would be plenty as a NAS and probably even faster, in the end.
Yeah the power consumption is a problem. But letting the HP run 24x7 should not be a problem since it's cooled very well...
Beautiful case, very well made.
Designed by BMW
Nice machines and only fairly recently out paced by newer hardware. Still work okay as a general desktop.also see it's had the upgraded PSU. As you can tell from the pins on the case. Cheap version doesn't have them on the front side of the middle connection.
Always like those machines, but not very practical these days.
How much did it cost back when it first marketed?
That is something I would like to know too....
4K$ starting i guess.
I have one machine on my own for private usage and I think this wouldn't be replaced in the next five to ten years.
What a great review! You went through all the interesting parts!
Thinking of getting one of these! Would it be problematic to install Windows 10 on this you think?
I think that should work but you will probably not find all drivers....
Hallo! Ich bin erst vor kurzem auf deinen Kanal gestoßen - deine vids sind echt der Hammer! (Überhaupt das nostalgische Geraffel)
...aber ich muss oft bei einigen Beiträgen mehrmals sekundenweise vorskippen, weil dein Sprech manchmal dermaßen einschläfernd ist, wie eine Schlaftablette auf Valium. Sorry ob der Kritik und schöne Grüße aus der Steiermark
Nun ja, deutsch denken und englisch sprechen erfordert erhöhte CPU Leistung, da laggt der Output manchmal etwas. Aber ich denke es ist besser geworden wenn man mit den alten Videos vergleicht.... ;-)
Hello mr. Play with Junk and all users of the HP. I'm young and green owner of the HP Z620 :)
could You give me professional advice? how to connect to this workstation SAS (server) hard
drives, and what is the meaning of jumper "SAS OPT" on this mother board
(right side of the mother board near RAM modules slots). I just put in
the SATA dock SAS HDD drive and nothing happen, disc isn't visible not
Windows 10 nor even BIOS :( could You please help me to solve this
situation?
I'm not familiar with all the details but this workstation has a SATA controller and SAS disks will not work. Try to find an owners or service manual for the jumper. Try Google "HP Z620 quickspecs" that may help.
You could install a PCI RAID controller like a HP P410 or 420 they are cheap now. Or jus a SAS HBA if you don't need RAID. And then connect your disks to that.
SAS controllers can handle SAS and SATA drives. But SATA controllers can only SATA.
@@PlaywithJunk thank You very much for good advice! it's very useful for me. good luck in the all your projects
My Dreams PC!
How much ram does it have ?
Depends of how much you put inside...
I liked the video. I wish you'd said its max memory and CPU cores & threads. This might be a cheap machine for a weekly backup unit or something. Don't know how much they are now.
I talked about CPU cores and threads in the video.
More information can be found by googling "HP Z800 QUICKSPECS"
@@PlaywithJunk Okay, sorry. I watched full video, but I skipped a little of the parts where it was stuff I already knew -- like opening the case, etc. But, yeah, nice hardware -- just its max is 384GB, I think. And it might have said each has 6 cores and 12 threads, so 24 threads. Nice, but the TDP is pretty high for that system. And, I can't believe that they are still so high in price. I'd pay (say) $150/$200 for one, maybe. But, not a $1000. Anyway, thanks for video. I really liked what you have done, and I learned stuff from it too.
The E5640 has hyperthreading, you just need to enable it in BIOS.
Ok so it was just disabled.... I will try to enable it and probably I get more BOINC jobs done :-)
@@PlaywithJunk It was probably disabled because of company policy regarding the Spectre and Meltdown related attack vectors with Intel's previous generation hyper-threading implementations. If I understand and remember the news correctly there is no guaranteed way to protect against these with hyper-threading enabled in Intel's chips before first Spectre related design changes.
I have one. Very nice design. It is not quiet compared to a T7500 from Dell with the same specs. My has x5690 so maybe that's the problem.
Worked for an auctioneer a few lives ago. These were fairly common along with Z400's due to local government departments with silly budgets (this is not an anti-government comment, just one against neoliberal government, but I digress). Can honestly say never saw a single one of those covers, and I don't think there was ever one with a full compliment of drive caddies 🤣
So you say HP made a "cheap" version just for the government? Well if you order 1000 or more at once, manufacturers will change designs.
@@PlaywithJunk nor at all, I think all these pieces went missing throughout their lifetime as being used by department heads to read their email on
edit: probably just before they were decommissioned, some poor tech had to pull any parts of value (or just parts that could contain restricted information, it's amazing how many places still think they need to pull the dram) before sending them off to the auctions as basically ewaste. Easier for them to not put those parts back and probably got dumped separately
Could you upgarde it with 2x X5670 ?
I upgraded some of those Z800 and some Z600 with X5680 and they work perfectly fine. So the 5670s should be no problem
@@TimEckert How did you get the X5680's to work in a Z600? The Z600 officially supports up to 2x 95W X5675 and I haven't heard of anyone being able to use higher TDP CPUs in it.
Z800 supports up to 2x X5690 which is the fastest for that socket.
I would say all the 56xx CPUs will work. But if you want to know it for sure, google HP Z800 QUICKSPECS. That is available for all HP products.
Something I forgot to say in my last post:
56xx series CPUs does work in Z800's with 11/10/09 boot block date and motherboard revision 003.
With revisions 001 and 002 it's a bit hit and miss. Some don't boot at all (stuck at black screen), some boot sometimes, some work without any issues.
You can check the boot block date in the BIOS. The boot block date can't be updated so if you have an older version, I'd recommend getting a Xeon 55xx series CPUs.
The fastest 4c/8t 55xx series dual socket CPUs:
W5590 3.33GHz, W5580 3.2GHz and X5570 2.93GHz.
It's strange seeing a high end HP computer of this era, as a brand it has become less associated with high quality equipment but of course they still made some.
All companies make different tier products for different markets. The business/commercial lines in any brand are pretty nice. The consumer lines are all garbage. I exclusively run older commercial boxes at home. You can pick up machines that are 2 or 3 years old for pennies on the dollar of original prices, and they're built like tanks and run basically forver
17:48 Ähm, das funktioniert nicht auf englisch XD
I WANT IT ANYHOW!😣 MU ah ha ha h ah ha ha ha ha ha h! Thank you for this video Sir 😉.
This is how the new Mac Pro should have been... Amazing device!
No chesse grinder??
This was exactly my thought.
This z800 4 beeb will come ,what the problem
I don't know... why not read the user / maintenance manual?
yea. but can it game?
Gtx 970 and up, then yes
Ist es frevelhaft wenn ich diese Schönheit gerne zerlegen würde? Hab schon geschaut das Teil kostet leider immer noch zwischen 400 und 800 Euro je nach Ausstattung. Ist mir dann doch zu teuer falls was kaputt geht.
Mit DEINEM Gerät kannst Du machen was Du willst... :-) Unsere beiden brauchen wir noch...
i wish my precision t3600 and 7820 looked as nice as this machine on the inside
its fucking gorgeous
-They spared no expenses
-Has Seagate HD103SJ in it
Really spared no expenses? What about THE WORST DRIVE EVER?
That drive was not original equipment.... it's my test drive.
Hey you, nice watch!
Looks like HP bought the whole MacPro dev team back then
SUN Microsystems also had some early models of Sparc 5 etc. that resembled much at the first Macintosh models. Either they are constantly spying each other or the engineers move from one company to another. Also the whole patenting war was not so developed then. Today Apple sues everyone who makes a round home button on their phones :-)
Wow, what a sexy machine.
nice case
Wow.... The Quiet Giant!
Thank you!
Your welcome!
I changed a few years ago an Z800 against den new HP Z8 at work. I can tell you the new Z8 is wat more over engineered than the Z800.
One of the Zx20 models (I think it was the 420) had a water cooled cpu. But the cooling solution was not so perfect. I guess that was more for marketing purposes... WE HAVE WATER COOLING!! :-)
"junk" ... still using the server equivalent hp ml350 g6 ... works fine... :D
Been trying to get my hands on one of these but it seems despite these being well over 10 years old now, the people who have and sell them seem to think they're made of pure gold and ask a fortune for them, which despite the overengineering they really aren't worth anymore. 300eur for a single CPU version with 8GB RAM and a Quadro NVS? 400+ for a (low-ish end) dual CPU version with 16GB RAM?! yeah no.fck that...
So many fans....
My PC has 12 case fans + the CPU fan, GPU fans (x2) and power supply fan totalling 16 fans. yeah my PC doesn't get hot at all.
It'll last forever. Hey, what do I do if I don't wnat to connect fans to case power. Is there a way just to put fans somewhere (like external drive bay for cooling it) and just have their own power supply and some speed control dial? Or do you know of a way to do that? My extra drives get hot so I need a way to cool them in their drive bay.
Recentls took apart a Z400. Typical HP trash: Power supply uses standard 24pin ATX connector, but with a different pinout. 2 Pins that normally are +5V and +3.3V carry +12V on this thing. GREAT thing if you want to reuse the power supply or main board and dont see it until everything burns out.
It's a custom PSU, what did you expect?
Yeah if you start changing stuff it's a domino effect, especially the PSU, but they are not really marketed for donor pcs, each element is worth very little unless you need it for another one identical, otherwise it's the the engineering that goes in the orchestration of all those elements that makes it exceptional.
Plus after building my own pcs since the 80ies I was fed up with fiddling and some many excess parts that are never good enough, now I want something that works well and fast and without headaches for long.
I leave the kids playing with RGBs and light effects, it's as good as stickers on a car and waste current for nothing.
I still need to understand who is the fucking moron that looks at his case while he works on his computer.
Plus it depends what you do dual xenon are good for massively paralleled jobs across 2 GPUS and 256G?B of ram to take full advantage of what you have, not so much for gaming, that you can do while serving a website.
I've been meaning to do a video myself on my one of these but it's been in use as my home server for a couple years! Actually mine's a bit different - the fan assembly is much more elaborate on mine
Still my computer of choice.
I imagine they bright this thing to a wind tunnel when designing, beautiful machine 😊
its more server than workstation really ,,Even has ILO ... well a early version anyway
I never noticed that. Next time when I'm using it, I must check it out...
They actually could be rack mounted! But they were 100% Workstations.
The HPZ sersies was designed by BMW engineers
Some say Porsche...
@@PlaywithJunk Actually it was done with the help of a company called "Designworks" based in California that is owned by BMW. So It was not done by the engineers in Germany.
@@grlg2 I'm glad it's not Ferrari as they would complain if I repaint or sell it.... 🙂
@@PlaywithJunk Ha, thats funny. I've seen a number of people repaint them as the sides end up being very badly scratched from poor handling and transport.
I have two of them, one that I've owned from new and another that was made up from parts. A few years ago I got a brand new empty case when HP in Europe was dumping them for about 70 Euros each. Also had a new spare motherboard and faulty power supply that I rebuild using a server power supply that fits inside the proprietary PSU housing. In my case it was not caps as I had changed almost all of them except the 400v filter caps and once a week it would would still randomly turn off - possibly a bad smd component or fractured solider/track.
For me aside from being a great computer it's also a piece of engineering artwork. Cheers.
So you are saying that my build it´s junk? lol
The "junk" in the title is mostly ironical :-)
@@PlaywithJunk yeah sure, it's ok all junk it's a treasure in others man eyes. Good vídeo and good channel
@@ingmariochen Thank you :-)
if you install enough memory the computer will refuse to start until you buy those fans and they are not cheap
Yes, the number of fans necessary depends on the configuration. Nothing is cheap on this machine :-)
Z400 is NOT definitely junk hardware.
Customers still use it.. wow. But I'll guess; don't fix it if it ain't broke.
I still use a Xeon CPU from this era that would have been sold with this. It works fine with modern apps. Computers haven't really gotten faster at the same rate as they were in the 90s, so old HW isn't that bad usually, as long as it was high-end in the first place.
My biggest issue I'm facing now is that it doesn't have EFI, just legacy BIOS, so I can't upgrade to the latest GPUs. That's probably the only thing that would drive me towards a newer machine, and I'd probably only go two gens newer than this (Z840).
@@Manofcube I fully understand you. I have a DELL Power Edge T430 workstation fex that yes the cpu could be upgraded and such but wouldn't do especially much and it works just fine as is and have all what I need like EFI and so on so there isn't really any reason change it out for something faster. But if pre around say 2012 there could be some few issues even if EFI was invented several years before that but not really used much back then. The advantage with old but still somewhat modern enterprise things is that if not to new, they are not that especially expensive either.
In fact some old processors had faster clock speeds than many new ones. But fewer cores and a higher power consumption. If your running applications that use only a few cores, the old machines are probably faster.
@@PlaywithJunk I totally agree with that.
hp good yan