Tweek Talks about LMBM 2025 and LumiRank | Episode 178

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  • เผยแพร่เมื่อ 23 ม.ค. 2025
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ความคิดเห็น • 163

  • @legrandliseurtri7495
    @legrandliseurtri7495 15 วันที่ผ่านมา +69

    Arguing that there should be a bonus for winning and then also saying Sonix should be ranked higher than 5th seems like a contradictary take.
    There's a publically available document explaining how the Lumirank works in excruciating details, and it's updated when changes are made from one season to another, and these changes are made according to player feedback. Like I really don't know what people in this community want from them.

    • @gerardomendoza4410
      @gerardomendoza4410 15 วันที่ผ่านมา +1

      Consistency.

    • @mysteryghost7972
      @mysteryghost7972 14 วันที่ผ่านมา +8

      @@gerardomendoza4410 Did you only read the last sentence of the entire comment. What do you want to have that actually makes sense as a solution.

    • @nathanlevesque7812
      @nathanlevesque7812 14 วันที่ผ่านมา +1

      Personally I think head to heads rewards players for their character pool. The difference between playing a hard counter to what top players use, vs the opposite of that is enormous. It's also frustrating to see players get penalized for having higher attendance, to the point that they are ranked lower than players with half as many majors and supermajors under their belt.

    • @legrandliseurtri7495
      @legrandliseurtri7495 14 วันที่ผ่านมา +4

      @@nathanlevesque7812 Character pick impacts every stat, you can't do much about that.
      Players are penalized for attending few events. Acola lost several points in 2024.1 for going to so few tournaments. Sonix lost several points in 2024.2 for the same reason.

    • @diek_yt
      @diek_yt 13 วันที่ผ่านมา

      They're just continuing to give more feedback for the next update

  • @Nefaliss
    @Nefaliss 15 วันที่ผ่านมา +29

    34:27 "I WILL NEVER. EVER! LOSE TO KIRBY! EVER!"
    Favorite moment of the podcast! 😂TY guys so much as always 🧡

  • @freeeeed
    @freeeeed 15 วันที่ผ่านมา +38

    glad the comments are mostly on the same page about 2023 spargo acola at least 😂 spargoat deserves all the love now but he was not the “obvious best player” for that year

  • @j.prt.979
    @j.prt.979 15 วันที่ผ่านมา +33

    I agree very strongly with what Pink was saying about how difficult it is to win a supermajor. Consistency is important, but supermajor wins should simply be valued higher, generally speaking. I think you should get a certain amount of bonus points for the rankings on top of the tournament points/player wins if you win a supermajor (or some kind of multiplier to make sure different levels of supermajor are valued properly? Not sure what would work best).
    We’ve seen amazing players struggle to win again and again. That really says something about the few (and it is only a *few*) players who can actually do it, and do it every season.

    • @danieldancer4065
      @danieldancer4065 15 วันที่ผ่านมา +2

      Feel like japan would'nt have to travel if wins were weighed heavier since they have it more often.

    • @trombonegamer14
      @trombonegamer14 14 วันที่ผ่านมา +1

      This would benefit Acola/Miya. They farm supermajors for breakfast lol

    • @nathanlevesque7812
      @nathanlevesque7812 14 วันที่ผ่านมา

      Winning a tournament is a more important demonstration of 'consistency'. Having to just win, period, until you are the only person who hasn't lost twice, is peak consistency.

    • @peashooter6628
      @peashooter6628 14 วันที่ผ่านมา

      ​@@trombonegamer14interesting how none of the Japanese players won a supermajor in the US this season though

    • @legrandliseurtri7495
      @legrandliseurtri7495 10 วันที่ผ่านมา

      @@peashooter6628 I mean, there were only 3. And Sparg0 won both of the NA supermajors he attended(Supernova, Riptide) but failed to win the one Japanese supermajor he attended(Kowloon Kagaribi). Finally, Miya won the biggest non-supermajor major of the season in NA(Cirque).

  • @TonyStorm21
    @TonyStorm21 15 วันที่ผ่านมา +19

    The main issue I have with the whole "If I get X amount of top players in a room, who's going to win?" is how certain matchups matter a ton more in a game like ultimate, in that situation I want Sparg0 to win, but I know there's a few that may not win but will give him a run for his money, that he could easily lose to, like Leo, Tweek and Light for example.
    Yes I can trust Sparg0 taking on most of not every single japanese player out, but he may lose before that, because that's what has happened before, we would need to get all top 100 players and make them do a round robin to determine the best player, but that's simply not possible.
    Another example is Leo, in an era where he was the undisputed king of smash, Shuton, Kameme and Proto gave him trouble, so winning a tournament depends on him not running into either of those two, even his legendary EVO run was after he was defeated by Kameme very early and sent into losers where he just destroyed everyone, but I'm 100% sure that if he had a runback with Kameme in that tourney, he would've been double eliminated by him, It's one of the few times I saw Leo actually look lost in a matchup.
    So no matter how much we figure a system or how we see it, rankings are a flawed concept, but we have such a love and hate relationship with stats, one thing I do agree with tho, is the fact that winning a supermajor should have more weight than it does, but if it did, NA and EU will never be able to compete with JP, because of how many supermajors they have, so that'd be another issue.

    • @nathanlevesque7812
      @nathanlevesque7812 14 วันที่ผ่านมา +1

      Tournaments are an endurance sport. The 'top players in a room' thing is like valuing invitationals over open brackets.

  • @guibrito14
    @guibrito14 15 วันที่ผ่านมา +131

    This argument of "if you put all the players in a tournament, who has the greatest chance of winning" to justify Spargo ranking 1 over Acola that year based on heads to heads is so biased and bad. That year Acola was clearly better, and no matter how much Acola lost to Spargo, in a hypothetical tournament, Acola would be in the grand final, but Sparg0 could simply suffer an upset to Skyjay or Yaura or Glutto, as he suffered several that season.

    • @crazykhespar8487
      @crazykhespar8487 15 วันที่ผ่านมา +5

      I think just counting head to heads would be better, whoever wins the most would be pretty easy to track.

    • @danielli5195
      @danielli5195 15 วันที่ผ่านมา +54

      Yeah I think something people also need to ask themselves is if Acola and Spargo's records were completely switched that season where Spargo had the consistency and Acola had the dominant head-to-head, and Acola was #2 and Spargo was #1, would there be such a public outcry? Realistically I doubt it. So much of that was due to Spargo having a huge fanbase and Acola playing Steve. I would hope people would be able to stay consistent with their criticisms of the ranking, but that's probably too much to as for.

    • @n8icuss
      @n8icuss 15 วันที่ผ่านมา +16

      I think you're overstresssing Sparg0's ability to get upset when it was the close year. That's why it was a good argument because yes Acola wasn't losing to anyone else except Sparg0 (& Sonix, though I dont think we knew that at the time), but Sparg0 was very rarely getting upset either. To put it this way he was statistically way more likely to make it to grands and upset Acola, than he was to get upset before then. Thats why it was honestly a very solid argument, because statistically it was pretty overwhelmingly true Sparg0 would win the Super duper omega major that year if one was held. Because Acola was basically guaranteed to lose to Sparg0 and there was definitely less than a 50% chance of Sparg0 getting upseted before making it to grands

    • @n8icuss
      @n8icuss 15 วันที่ผ่านมา +4

      ​@@danielli5195I think you're underselling those who made that argument for the close year. From what I remember almost every tournament Sparg0 and Acola entered together Sparg0 won, and Sparg0 was pretty consistent too. It was basically like asking what if these two players weren't region locked, who statistically wouod win more and that was Sparg0 at the time. I would agree with consistency over H2Hs if region lock wasn't upholding the consistency

    • @Sunshine-eo2sp
      @Sunshine-eo2sp 15 วันที่ผ่านมา +2

      Totally agree.

  • @MasterAbeer101
    @MasterAbeer101 15 วันที่ผ่านมา +40

    Sparg0 is so talented. Not only did he finally become the number 1 player, he won LMBM and got 2nd place in Rivals with like less than a month's worth of experience. This guy is a different breed 😂. Anyways, congrats on doing well on LMBM Tweek even though you didn't get the W this time. You did great!

  • @blaineb4145
    @blaineb4145 15 วันที่ผ่านมา +8

    Hurt beat spargo the first time specifically by dash attacking landings. Hurt is the only player to ever punish spargo for landing

    • @nellio3981
      @nellio3981 15 วันที่ผ่านมา +2

      Granted snakes dash attack covers like half the stage 😭

  • @FreddeGreddeMusic
    @FreddeGreddeMusic 15 วันที่ผ่านมา +6

    Now that the game is nearing its "end", don't you guys think it would be good to make a TRUE BEST PLAYER tournament, where you take the top 16 or top 20 from the latest ranking, and let them all face each other once each? This is how European sports often do it, that there are no semifinals or finals, just a straight table, and I think it's the fairest way to determine who's truly the best.
    It would be really hype in my opinion, and all games would matter, and there's no bracket luck involved!

  • @legrandliseurtri7495
    @legrandliseurtri7495 15 วันที่ผ่านมา +5

    Fun fact: Mkleo reversed 3-0 Tweek 5(!) times in Ultimate.

  • @originoa
    @originoa 14 วันที่ผ่านมา +1

    Becoming a real big fan of tweek. Especially w his more consistent wins. He always clutches up and thats my fav part of his game. Keep winnin tweek.

  • @cleanmf1
    @cleanmf1 15 วันที่ผ่านมา +7

    That boy nice (Tweek, Sparg0, Leo)

  • @Sunshine-eo2sp
    @Sunshine-eo2sp 15 วันที่ผ่านมา +37

    Haz that's totally wrong. The best player is who wins the biggest tournaments. Spargo wasn't winning the biggest events that year. It was always "Acola is the favorite to win, unless Spargo gets to him". That's just called having a bracket demon, not someone being a better player.
    It's like in smash 4 how everyone knew Leo could beat Zero, but then Leo would lose Muteace at evo.
    Charles is right tho. The algorithm being transparent would help a lot. Like I understand why Zackary was just an honorable mention, but there were other players that didn't compete too many more times as him, on average performed worse, and were still ranked. If they would've given him 20th, everyone would've understood why.

    • @AJ-sl7be
      @AJ-sl7be 15 วันที่ผ่านมา +18

      I don't think transparency is the issue, the people involved in Lumirank discuss how the rankings work and why all over social media. Just not enough smash players/viewers paying attention.

    • @mangowett9967
      @mangowett9967 15 วันที่ผ่านมา

      Opens with “you’re wrong” haha off to a good start

    • @legrandliseurtri7495
      @legrandliseurtri7495 15 วันที่ผ่านมา +12

      Lumirank told everyone exactly what were the requirements to get ranked. Zackray was one event away from being ranked. He probably made that choice deliberately.

    • @juanmartingutierrez3524
      @juanmartingutierrez3524 15 วันที่ผ่านมา +1

      If you are HM being from japan or tristate is your own fault. Theres a lot of events happenig during the year to just end up missing getting ranked

    • @n8icuss
      @n8icuss 15 วันที่ผ่านมา +2

      "Sparg0 wasnt winning the biggest events that year". Statistically not true. In any tournament Sparg0 & Acola entered, Sparg0 won 3, Acola won 2 tournaments in 2023. Statistically Sparg0 was 60% likely to make it to grands at any tournament (12/20), and 100% likely to beat Acola (6-0). Sparg0 was just statistically way more likely to win any tournament him & Acola entered that year, and I would say the biggest events were ones where both Sparg0 & Acola participated.
      Sparg0's top 3 placements were also 2 P tiers and a S tier. Acola's top 3 was 1 P tier, 1 S+, and 1 A+. Acola also had a 100% losing record against #3 Sonix, though not aa high a set count as Sparg0 (0-2). And Sparg0 had a winning set count against Sonix of (9-6). No matter how you dice it, Sparg0 was significantly more likely to win any tournament they both entered

  • @quarium5681
    @quarium5681 14 วันที่ผ่านมา +3

    Leo plays too unsure agaisnt Tweek, respects him more than any other player to his detriment imo

  • @Crackey75
    @Crackey75 8 วันที่ผ่านมา

    I love how everyone else is at least somewhat centered on their facecam, except Markus, who's just lurking the the bottom left

  • @classicaltrav
    @classicaltrav 15 วันที่ผ่านมา +5

    Charles spitting at 15:05 let everyone know to help them make decisions

    •  15 วันที่ผ่านมา +1

      Agree completely! This is such an important point that should spread around way more. If you're being ranked you should know how you're being measured. Period. Will players try to "game" the systemO? Well yes, probably, but if you value the right things, then there should be no problem.

    • @vinzdorier
      @vinzdorier 14 วันที่ผ่านมา +9

      Dude, LumiRank has a whole public document explaining in simple terms how they calculate. I'm so sick of top players making criticism based on ignorance, despite the fact that they are THE people who should care about understanding it. Unless they don't care about the ranking (many tops say they don't) and in that case why even bother commenting on it?

  • @43idiosyncrasies65
    @43idiosyncrasies65 14 วันที่ผ่านมา

    Funny listening to Chuck's snow story while I'm stuck here at the airport waiting for my flight that's been delayed 5 hours due to snow

  • @zake64
    @zake64 9 วันที่ผ่านมา +1

    9:07 but that's the point. The numbers were NOT equal. Sparg0 objectively did considerably worse than Acola that season overall.

  • @zake64
    @zake64 9 วันที่ผ่านมา

    15:34 they do though. Luminosity literally posts exactly how the algorithm is calculated every season. Players would rather bitch about it than take the 10 mins to read

  • @trombonegamer14
    @trombonegamer14 14 วันที่ผ่านมา +2

    44:47
    This is so true, and also one of the reasons I think Leo has experienced success against Sparg0. He's immune to that sort of aura, because he used to be that guy. He knows it's always winnable, everyone has habits that can be exploited, no one is invincible.

    • @mynor5249
      @mynor5249 13 วันที่ผ่านมา

      And also Leo has been playing with Sparg0 earlier than most of the other top players, so he played before he had the aura. Throwback to Summit 3 Leo saying that Sparg0 will become the best and surpass him one day.

  • @RedMooseJesus
    @RedMooseJesus 15 วันที่ผ่านมา +2

    Wait so, the only two NA players in the top 10, both lost to two other NA players? That's....something.

  • @ln8496
    @ln8496 15 วันที่ผ่านมา +4

    Stango is so good and spargos performance over him and even boiko proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that spargo is THE swordsmaster of smash

  • @ZombieReese
    @ZombieReese 15 วันที่ผ่านมา +1

    Happy New Year !!!!!! 🎊🎊🎊🎊🎊🎊🎊

  • @Uran10
    @Uran10 15 วันที่ผ่านมา +8

    Nah, you need to go for golden week...

    • @80espiay
      @80espiay 15 วันที่ผ่านมา +1

      Apparently you avoid going around that time because it’s so crowded

    • @Senaru
      @Senaru 15 วันที่ผ่านมา +1

      @@80espiay it's true, it's the worst time to go as a tourist

    • @Uran10
      @Uran10 15 วันที่ผ่านมา +2

      @@80espiay Not saying it for tourism, saying it for smash. If its for tourism and you want to enjoy Japan the fall is probably best. Not too hot, not too crowded

    • @Senaru
      @Senaru 15 วันที่ผ่านมา +1

      @@Uran10 for Smash you right, and I also feel like I might as well want to enjoy the visit to its fullest after spending thousands of dollars to travel there as well

  • @rubenomaraguero1
    @rubenomaraguero1 9 วันที่ผ่านมา

    pinkfresh looks like stanley from the office

    • @Hazmatt
      @Hazmatt 9 วันที่ผ่านมา

      Wym

  • @johntitor7886
    @johntitor7886 9 วันที่ผ่านมา

    The top 20 players should each play a first to 50 (first to 10, 5 days in a row) against each other. Spend the year collecting this data. That would be a better performance indicator. Preferably not on wifi. Lol. I get this is unrealistic...but it would be a better metric imo.

  • @Mr36Chamberz
    @Mr36Chamberz 15 วันที่ผ่านมา +1

    Wednesdays are so back!!!

  • @mihawk9107
    @mihawk9107 13 วันที่ผ่านมา

    Smash second (first?) greatest rivalry will be set one day before the next game 😂

  • @cdw57will
    @cdw57will 12 วันที่ผ่านมา

    we missed u!!

  • @AJ-sl7be
    @AJ-sl7be 15 วันที่ผ่านมา +1

    ALGORITHM

  • @AnormaIPerson3121
    @AnormaIPerson3121 15 วันที่ผ่านมา +3

    You won't win against syrup anymore without Sephiroth

  • @matthewgriffin7763
    @matthewgriffin7763 14 วันที่ผ่านมา

    Tweek being 10 over Leo (to me) is kinda bonkers

    • @Nouser_237
      @Nouser_237 5 วันที่ผ่านมา

      Leo was ranked above Asimo as well

    • @matthewgriffin7763
      @matthewgriffin7763 5 วันที่ผ่านมา

      @Nouser_237 exactly i get it Leo was great at some point for a while but that time has loooooong past. He makes it's out of pools and commentator acts like he going to win every tournament. No disrespect to Leo but it's disrespect to other players

    • @Nouser_237
      @Nouser_237 5 วันที่ผ่านมา

      @@matthewgriffin7763 I mean, outside of Supernova, MKLeo hasn’t missed top 5 of an event and all of his losses are from top 20 players but, as they said in the podcast, winning a major let alone a supermajor feels like it gets less credit than it deserves

  • @lunarteam9003
    @lunarteam9003 13 วันที่ผ่านมา

    LMAO 34:27

  • @coolshirtkid
    @coolshirtkid 15 วันที่ผ่านมา +4

    glad i’m not insane and pink agrees tweek is lowkey the best player 😂 for me personally it’s back and forth between sparg0 and tweek in terms of raw skill, not wins or placements

    • @idiot-rz9zk
      @idiot-rz9zk 15 วันที่ผ่านมา +2

      Cool! I like talking about skill more than results bc idk its more fun and interesting lol, my top 5 most skilled players (based on my understanding/misunderstanding of the game…)
      Protobanham (lol, my 🐐), Sparg0, Asimo, Sonix, Light

    • @coolshirtkid
      @coolshirtkid 15 วันที่ผ่านมา +3

      @ dude proto was soooo sick he’s definitely the player i miss the most his lucina was otherworldly. really interesting top 5!

  • @coolersspaceship7964
    @coolersspaceship7964 15 วันที่ผ่านมา +22

    Haz hating on Acola hella hard bruh. That shit is lame 👎👎👎

    • @BOBSUSHI32
      @BOBSUSHI32 14 วันที่ผ่านมา

      shut up bro

    • @alexmartin6561
      @alexmartin6561 13 วันที่ผ่านมา

      Many top players do. Light, spargo and leo too.

    • @reggiegesicho5454
      @reggiegesicho5454 13 วันที่ผ่านมา +1

      Because Steve is mickey. Spargo the goat 🤪

    • @HamzaKhan-mk5lb
      @HamzaKhan-mk5lb 10 วันที่ผ่านมา +1

      @@alexmartin6561 None of them hate acola lol, they hate Steve but any statements to the players are jokes

    • @coveredinrice5341
      @coveredinrice5341 9 วันที่ผ่านมา

      Timestamp please

  • @Snack1118
    @Snack1118 15 วันที่ผ่านมา

    Tweek please pick up a Steve secondary

  • @stef-eg9sk
    @stef-eg9sk 15 วันที่ผ่านมา +1

    tweek and leo not playing again in ult would be hilarious

  • @PonyBoyRock
    @PonyBoyRock 15 วันที่ผ่านมา +5

    Tweek not beating the allegations he can only win supermajors if steve banned

    • @rich7103
      @rich7103 15 วันที่ผ่านมา +25

      He won GOML last year with Steve being legal.

    • @PonyBoyRock
      @PonyBoyRock 15 วันที่ผ่านมา

      ​@@rich7103didn't face any Steve's luckily for him

    • @abduleshabbar9223
      @abduleshabbar9223 15 วันที่ผ่านมา +13

      @@rich7103 And in fact beat syrup in top 8 if I remember right.

    • @rich7103
      @rich7103 15 วันที่ผ่านมา

      ​@@abduleshabbar9223Yep

    • @PonyBoyRock
      @PonyBoyRock 15 วันที่ผ่านมา

      Also got double eliminated in a tournament by steve only reason he won the past luminosity tournaments was cause steve ban​@rich7103

  • @BOBSUSHI32
    @BOBSUSHI32 14 วันที่ผ่านมา +1

    Comments not happy 💀 we all know sparg0 has been the best for the last few years, glad he finally proved it

  • @Moon-uq6ob
    @Moon-uq6ob 15 วันที่ผ่านมา +11

    This episode was kinda obnoxious ngl.

    • @KamikazeNinja05
      @KamikazeNinja05 15 วันที่ผ่านมา +6

      How?

    • @brentdalton6355
      @brentdalton6355 15 วันที่ผ่านมา

      Dude what

    • @jonny7444
      @jonny7444 15 วันที่ผ่านมา

      This was a really good ep ngl

    • @mountimgoat
      @mountimgoat 14 วันที่ผ่านมา

      ngl this comment is really obnoxious

  • @crazykhespar8487
    @crazykhespar8487 15 วันที่ผ่านมา +8

    No views or comments in 15 seconds? Psh. Bro fell off.

  • @crazykhespar8487
    @crazykhespar8487 15 วันที่ผ่านมา +3

    Yeeaahhh top 10 is a mess.

  • @gerardomendoza4410
    @gerardomendoza4410 15 วันที่ผ่านมา +1

    The people justifying Acola #1 in 2023 are so ridiculous, Sparg0 not only had consistency against Acola, he also had consistency against the entire world top 5. While Acola from the top 5 in the world only had consistency against Glutto. lmao Watch the throne was the clearest proof of that. In addition, Sparg0 won Majors in the USA, CAN, MX, JPN, only the EU was missing, Acola only won Majors in JPN and the USA in all of 2023. If we have 2 clear competitors for the #1 position it is obvious that it is decided in a face to face, and clearly Sparg0 6 - 0 Acola

    • @QOD1337
      @QOD1337 14 วันที่ผ่านมา +17

      Sparg0's record vs top 100: 78-28
      Acola's record vs top 100: 94-17
      Sparg0's worst placement: 49th, at Smash Con
      Acola's worst placement: 7th, at Genesis
      Number of times Sparg0 missed top 8: 3 (49th at Smash Con, 9th at Crown, 17th at Port Priority)
      Number of times Acola missed top 8: 0 (in fact, he only placed below top 3 *twice*, with 7th at Genesis and 4th at WTT)
      Obviously Sparg0 will look better if you go out of your way to only choose the stats that favour him (which there are, because it was close). The reality is that there are well-founded arguments for both of them, and that's why they were close, and also why rankings are difficult.

    • @atietta
      @atietta 14 วันที่ผ่านมา +5

      we just making up new arbitrary metrics now wtf is "number of unique places where youve won majors"

    • @legrandliseurtri7495
      @legrandliseurtri7495 14 วันที่ผ่านมา +6

      The mid year season was the only one that was actually close between Sparg0 and Acola. And during that season, Acola didn't play Sonix, had a 2-1 record against Miya and a 2-0 record against Tweek, while Sparg0 had a 2-2 record against Sonix, 1-0 against Miya and 1-2 against Tweek. So, there, he didn't do better against the rest of the top 5 than Acola.
      For the full year ranking, it's possible Sparg0 wouldn't even have been 2nd in the world if it wasn't for his amazing first half of the year, cause he was simply too inconsistent with too many meh losses and placements. Unless I'm forgetting something, Acola had one loss outside of the top 4 in the second half of the year(to Hurt). Who cares if your record against the rest of the top 4 isn't the best if you're almost never losing to anyone else.

    • @HamzaKhan-mk5lb
      @HamzaKhan-mk5lb 10 วันที่ผ่านมา

      Only thing sparg0 had above acola In 2023 was the h2h, acola had more wins, was more consistent and a better record vs top 100. Where you win your major is irrelevant, its the tiering of the tournaments that matter.

    • @LegendCobraX-w2o
      @LegendCobraX-w2o 8 วันที่ผ่านมา

      Acola was clearly better

  • @bathboy_1576
    @bathboy_1576 15 วันที่ผ่านมา +1

    Maybe Battle of BC?