Dísir and Dísablót
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 18 ต.ค. 2024
- A dís (plural: dísir) is a vaguely described lesser supernatural being, seemingly associated with particular families or places. Part I looks at the small bits of evidence about these beings in Old Norse literature. In Part II, starting about 14:24, UNM's Dr. Luke Gorton (@wordsafari4611) presents on their likely classical counterparts, the Lares and Penates.
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There's something so simultaneously evocative and deflating about just how much of the Norse tradition is lost to us. The little tidbits of mysterious concepts we have makes us want to speculate and fill in the gaps ourselves, and yet we will likely never be able to see how accurate our speculations were. One of the things that makes me keep coming back!
Agreed, but at the same time these are mythological concepts that may not neccessarily have been unanimously agreed upon by ppl at the time and different ideas about dísir may have varied according to geography and timing. This of course makes everything ten times more complicated
I think it's strange, however to know how late, Lutheran belief was becoming a populous faith in Scandinavia, compared to it's almost 500 years role as "State religion" of the Scandinavian countries, the first "awakening movement" is about the same time as the end of the Napoleonic era of Western Europe..
I remember that I asked my mom, about why there were Thunder Storms with its display of lightning as a child of Northern Norway, and the answer, that it was Thor riding the "Bukkan" across the sky , was very reasonable to my about 4 year old self, back in the late 1960s, so heathen ideas can't have disappeared too long time ago... But, I grew up in a very rural area, so it's hard to say anything in general..
@@ToreMix7400 Never fully disappeared, but altered to the point we can't know what people really believed back then
I can tell you there is plenty to go by if you're willing to look. The fact dr. Crawford can make an endless stream of content on it says it all.
And most likely more and more will come to us. You just have to puzzle a little bit, but that was always the idea with the riddles that these poems are.
It's not actually meant for everyone's eyes.
I mean that's all of history in general. We never truly know the full context. We're always guessing and relying on faith to relate history.
The Disir seem to be somewhat like the female equivalents of the elves in Old Norse tradition, who are often presented as being male lesser supernatural beings allied to the gods and also receive blot sacrifices. There may also be an Old English analogue to the Disir in the ‘Mothers’, which are beings mentioned by Bede that receive sacrifices in the winter around Christmas time.
Crawford explains how vague the term elf is an a lot of other videos he's done. The problem comes from the root meaning something like "bright/sharp." The only modern word I can really think of is "elan" which has the same "ela/elu" root and means "having energy".
I think there's a gothic word that's something like "aljanna". Finnish has "alju/aljo" meaning well nourished (but can be used in a derogatory way to say someone that eats too much haha).
The root is also used for physical objects, most intriguingly, moving water sources. So we find it in river names. And, I'd also argue, in the word "well" as in a water well (I firmly believe there was an initial consonant that was lost as the root branches out into other languages).
The problem is we don't know if the root was used because the water reflects light, or because water provides us the energy we need to stay alive. I'd argue for the original meaning being the latter because the Indo-European root seems to mean something like "containing energy." It think in very old languages it was used to refer to things that were in motion. The modern word "valve" means something that controls the flow of energy. Perhaps that's why the seeress in Old Norse sources was called a volva? Because she gave energy/nourishment in the form of wisdom. I've heard that volva was also used as a word for grandmother. In other sources she's called the haliurunnae (gothic-latin), hellerune (Old English), and helliruna (Old High German). And what do you know. Every single one of those has the "elu" root in it, just with the initial "h" still intact.
The root is also in the place name "Albion" which is what Great Britain was called way way back in the day. Is that because the Celts lived there (the Celts were said to have white skin and bleached their hair)? Or was it called that because it's so damn wet there a lot of the time?
Intriguingly, we see the same root in the Greek Elusian Mysteries and Elysian Fields. And we have a modern word that come from those: "elusive".
I think it could also be connected to the Greeks name for themselves as Hellenes.
We have the word yellow, which has the root in it. The German form is gelb, which is the same root. These colors just retain the initial consonant. So it's "the bright/sharp looking color".
And geld/yield has the root plus the d consonant that in Germanic languages denotes an action that was finalized.
So geld/yield is a debt or payment. Gold is also related, but I think it may be more like how Kleenex came to be used for tissues. Gold was seen as the only acceptable form of payment back in the day, so it just came to be referred to as "the thing you can settle debts with" because of golds ability to withstand time without rusting or crumbling away.
Ale (the alcoholic drink) has the root in it. Probably because alcohol gives you a rush of euphoria when you imbibe it.
There are many inscriptions on objects in runes that utilize the root. Is this people putting it on their weapons to try and give their weapons more "energy" to strike their opponents in battle? Is it the name of their god? Is it an invocation of the tribe they come from?
The root could also be connected to the name of the deities in Christianity and Islam. Eloah and Allah are cognate. Is elu a cognate of them? Was there a shared religion many many years ago that we're missing? That root denotes the concept of oneness/wholeness. Neuroscience has recently shown through brain scans that religious ecstacy lights up the pathways associated with feeling like you're a part of something bigger than yourself.
The Alemanni were a confederation of Germanic tribes living between three large rivers in Germany. Were they called that because they were "all the germans" grouped together? Or were they called that because they lived near those three rivers (ie running water sources)? Or were they called that because of the way they looked (fair skin and hair)? Or were they called that because they were fierce in battle (ie full of a strong sharp energy)?
We really don't know. It's such an old root that it's really hard for us to determine it with any kind of certainty.
Tak! Jeg tror jeg vil holde et ordentligt disablot til min fødselsdag. 😀🍻🍻
There's one specific Marvel comic wherein Thor has to fight some Dísir and I've wondered about them ever since. I haven't actually done any research on the topic yet, as I'm more scatterbrained than I ever thought it was humanly possible to be, but now I've got a wonderful primer on it from you! :D
Please don't base your ideas of the Old Norse based on Marvel movies...
The laureas, pattae, and Disir are so similar to the Japanese concept of Kami! In Japan, every family has a kamidana (like the larareum) and families worship them.
Thank you. As always informative and to the point. I agree that stif categorisation with so little informatoin leads to total misunderstandings.
Thank you Dr. Crawford, interesting as always. Greetings from Iceland - Einar.
It's always a treat to get to watch you and Luke interact.
Interesting to have an informed presentation on this. Sheds some light on my (Swedish) Grandfather's habit of putting a bowl of Grut (rice pudding) out for Tomtarna on Jul Natt, among a couple other things. He explained it to me once, very matter of fact rather than something mystical sounding (perhaps acknowledgement of them rather then a veneration of them). The seeming family orientation of methods of interaction with disir, you mention, rings true at least to me. Vermont is a long way from Sweden, but Tomtarna, in my house, get their Grut on Jul Natt still... some traditions are harder to break than follow
Gröt (with an ö not u) is porridge.
Tomtarna, is basically gnomes, in garden gnomes, or hustomte the house gnomes. Little care takers or custodians, who take care of the garden, stalls, house, sauna (bastutomten) etc. They can be a bit mischievous so you need to keep them happy by, for example giving them porridge (gröt).
These Tomtar are usually depicted as small "Santa Claus" looking figures, much like the garden gnomes you can buy.
My parents bought a mirror in a drive-way sale and, years later, bought the house. The connection was only made when the wallpaper was removed revealing a pale patch in the distinctive shape of the mirror (it hangs there as I write). If it came to selling the house, what you would you do with the mirror? Is it not Dísir?
Lovely to see you two together in person
Thank yuo for this so interesting show on Disa I really like your channel professor! You could say The disirs have invited me home to Valhall - as a way of saying you are dying, and it implies you are prepared to die - at least my grandparent said so in Swedish (from Hälsingland). "När diserna bjuder mig till Valhall" . Disa was a woman/demi-god that was so wise she became the queen according to our mythology. Diserna, plural, later became synonym with the group of female Asa deities: predominantly Hjördis och Freja according to Asatron. Disablot - is a sacrificial ritual that took place every 7 year in Uppsala according to some sources. Uppsala, contrary to Birka that was christened already 950 by Ansgar, stuck to the pagen beliefs long into 13th and 14th century. Disablote in Uppsala later transformed into "disating" which was an annual market fair in Uppsala almost up to modern times (perhaps still). There should be plenty of research about the word "disa" in Uppsala University which was the first university in the Nordics founded in the 15th century. So we were taught in school at least. Maybe I have forgotten half of it but there must be textbooks from the 70- or 80-s when I went to school and they still taught old Asa religion extensively in Sweden. I wa
You didn't even hesitate mentioning the Monster Manual. 😂 This man games.
man, thank you for acknowledging the domovoi. i thought i was remembering a dream for the longest time, and i don't recall where i first encountered the word. i don't know any russian beyond some vulgarities but any time i've looked for it in english i've failed to find anything.
"Lar" in Portuguese is an alternate word for "home" and apparently/obviously comes from Latin, which probably also was the source for "lair" in English.
that is an interesting tidbit thank you!
lair, and many words in English that have an "ai" in them, come from formerly "ag". The r ending shows you that it's a thing that contains the meaning of the verb. So you have lag+er. Lag/Leg/Log is a very common Indo-European root. It's physical meaning is the modern word "lay". It also has an abstract meaning of not moving, ie order. So that root is where the words "logic", "law", "lock", and even "lake" come from. I would even argue that it's the root in "language" where the n is inserted because the vowel is in a different place than the g, so the mouth slides through the n sound and thus it alters the initial root. But the physical concept is "to lay". And again, the -r ending denotes that the word is a noun. So a "lair" is "a place where you lay".
I am skeptical about "lair", but Portuguese "lar" is directly related to Latin "Lares". This is one word I got interested in knowing its origin because the Spanish equivalent is completely different (hogar). Actually, the Spanish word comes from the Latin word for "hearth" (focus). And the Portuguese word for "hearth" (lareira) also comes from "Lares" or "Lararium".
Thanks for sharing! Since they can be helpers in childbirth, I decided to write a story about two doulas who identify as Dísir.
Domovoi: don't piss off your "House Thing"
When you said “Dis” my juvenile mind thought “Dis Nutz” 😂 and then said “dik” 😂 I will always remember that disir is lower than asir.
The Lares and Penates reminds me a bit about nisser, tomter, husvætter or husguder. Jackson, do you have any good stories and etymologies about these beings ? :) Lets also throw other spirit beings in the there while we are at it :D Haugbui and Draugr ?
We named our 5 month old Freydís (we're from Iceland so it's not weird here)
Freydis is a beautiful name, I've always thought so.
This episode was interesting to me because my grandmother's name was Thordis (Anglicized spelling).
Wonderful info as always 😊
Dr. Crawford, do you know of a Saga featuring a father and/or husband trying to get back his kidnapped daughter or wife? I believe her name is "Goa" or "Goi"? Also, if you're familiar with the Delphi murder trial, do you know of any instances in the sagas recounting a human sacrifice? Thank you for this amazing info!
Is Alaric Hall's (2007:22) suggestion that disir is just another name for valkyrie not well accepted? I had thought that was the most commonly accepted reading in modern Norse studies. (Hall, Alaric. 2007. Elves in Anglo-Saxon England: Matters of Belief, Health, Gender and Identity. Suffolk and Rochester: Boydell Press.)
"Dis" to me is the personification of a light fog, because "dis" is the Norwegian word for that phenomenon.
The word is used the same way in modern Swedish, haze or mist in the morning. This phenomenon can also be called by the less common älvdans meaning dance of elves. This reinforces the idea that the concept was similar to fairies.
@@danvernier198 we don't use älvdans (or alvedans) in that context but I'm familiar with the idea through the excellent painting "Älvalek" by August Malmström.
The word has always evoked that image for me, too. We use the same word for a light mist in swedish, also. But they're etymologically unrelated. Just happen to sound the same, like hjul and jul, or english ring as in a circle and ring as in a ringing noise
@@joelmattsson9353 Really? It makes too much sense for me that the fairy/elf-like being is connected to the mist to take your word for it, to be honest... but perhaps you're right.
@@danvernier198 In the north- eastern part of the Netherlands and Friesland, we call this foggy phenomenon the 'Witte Wieven' (White Ladies). In folklore they have benign but also dangerous properties. They either help you or guide you through the bogs or drown you if you displease them. They actually feature in a Dutch horrormovie (2024).
Minster manual? Does Dr. Crawford play DnD?
This technically means a fanum tax can be a government taxing temples doing their business.
These beings sound like they might be roughly equivalent to the idea of angels and/or demons. Especially of the guardian type.
And as soon as I type that, you mention people viewing then as guardian angels.
an idea closer to guardian angels than lares might be the pre-Plato ancient greek conception of daimons we see in Sappho's poetry, where they act as sort of messengers and advocates to the gods for their specific person.
Hey Cowboy, we see a lot of words in Old Norse that have lost a lot of letters by the time they get to that language, right?
If dís is cognate to theos, then shouldn't it also be cognate to "devi" and "deva" in Sanskrit? Devi seems to mean something like "burning" or "shining". And the Deva/Devi in the ancient Indian writings are God's opposed to the Asuras. No, I'm not going to claim that the Asuras are the Æsir.
Instead I'm going to point out that there is a word in the Germanic language family that seems to be similar in structure, but is mostly used for male demi-gods, much like how dís is used for lesser female gods. What's that word/root?
Dagaz. And what do you know, it's a word who's root also means "burning" or "shining" and is where we get the modern word "day" in English.
But you know what other word we get in English from the g softening? Dawn. So we know that it is a possible sound change that can occur. However, I'm not completely convinced that much of a sound change, if any, actually had to occur. The Germanic languages have some very throaty consonants. The -ig ending has a very distinct sound that is not really like the English "guh" sound. It's more like an epiglottal h sound. And if you say "dah" and add that Germanic throaty g sound on the end, it actually sounds very very close to the modern English word "day". Try it. I would say it actually sounds kind of Dutch in how it's more sing songy. So if we use 'h to try and indicate that it's that throaty sound, it might make more sense to a native speaker to write it something like "deye'h". But I'm digressing a bit.
Anyway. So perhaps dagas, devas/devis, and dís are connected.
But also, doesn't the theos root mean something like "doer" or "someone who has done something" ? I thought I read in some etymology stuff that the Greek gods were called theos because they caused things to happen. Could this be that "gods" were the result of ancients trying to remember great deeds done by members of their tribes? Is that why Kings were often deified once they died?
this is excellent
The Codex Amiatinus is the earliest surviving manuscript of the complete Bible in the Latin Vulgate. It is considered the most accurate copy of Saint Jerome's original translation and was used in the revision of the Vulgate by Pope Sixtus V in 1585-90. Preserved in the Medicea Laurenziana Library in Florence, it is one of the world's most important manuscripts. We can learn much.
The Lares remind me of the Genus Loci that are attach to a family instead of a place.
A lar is very similar to a nisse. Not so much how nesser used to be seen, but how they were in times past.
So when Aeneas left Troy (Aeneid II), and is described as taking with them the Lares and Penates - I get when they would take the Penates, but they took the Lares too. I suppose that was because the Epic leads to the foundation of New Troy, that is Rome.
I wonder why you guys chose to use the word deities? You finally got around to the word spirit in relation to the domovoy. When we talk about spirits of the family or better, maybe, spirits of the ancestors, it doesn’t sound out of place in English. Dieties definitely sounds more out of place. To me anyway. What about the landvaettir as spirits of the land seems understandable from a modern English perspective
3:35 😆😆
so God in Greek is a 'collective' (in latin plural tantum)????
Linking Greek theos to Latin fanum is based on the assuming that theos is a native Greek word whose sounds have evolved like other native Greek words, but this assumption contradicts what Herodotus tells us - that it is a borrowing from "Pelasgian" not a native Greek word.
No such account of Herodotus i know of. Plato connects the word to the verb θέω.
@@AthrihosPithekos Herodotus says that it was the Pelasgians who called them "Θεοὺς" and links the word to "θέντες". The fact that you don't know about it is irrelevant.
There is no sound...
5:00 black riders og origin
So dís is related to týr then.
You can not 'compare the Dísir with the fay or something'. Like the Disana from sanskrit and the Iron age cult of the Matrons in Germania, the Dísir represented the collective of ancestral mothers and other women with a high status within a clan or tribe. Little is written about them, but their importance in every day life for families was probably greater than the annual feasts and blóts to the Æsir. Remember that one of Freyja's oldest epithets is Vanadís, the great Dís of the Vanir.
He goes over that epithet.
The comparison to Fae is apt.
You are arguing from silence.
I don't know who you quoted, but what he actually said was "you can think of them kind of like the Norse equivalent of the fae". And from what I've seen of fae folklore, fae were definitely seen as part of everyday life. So your argument is wrong in at least 2 ways.
Dísnutz
Nerd satisfied.
Learn cross country skiing that you can manage up to a quite old age.
"Hi I'm Old Norse specialist Dr Jackson Crawford ever on a quest to post videos with annoyingly low sound volume so that that my viewers have to boost the volume and them blow out their eardrums when they forget to unboost and switch to a video by anyone else."
I'n sorry, but the sound quality is so bad I have to stop watching. Takes way too much energy to try to hear what you're saying.
Sounds the same as any of his other videos, I’ve never had any trouble at all understanding him, just have to turn the volume up a notch higher than most other channels
@@BobbyHill26 Of course I put the volume at maximum. But it takes too much efford to hear what he says.
Maybe it's different if you're a non-native English speaker but to me it's completely easy to understand.
Easy to understand but sound volume is poor.
Check your hearing.
Profane < Pro.fanum = before the temple = not sacred ? Fascinating. I learned something new today. Thanks!