Does what I said make any sense at all? 😅What price would you pay for a nice new compact micro four thirds camera? What are the specs you want for the next new compact micro four thirds from OM system or Panasonic?
To be fair, Panasonic have upgraded to 25 megapixels, but at the cost of lower dynamic range. The camera makers need money to make new produts, I think that is the biggest issue now, I do not think it is cheaper to make a MTF camera than it is to make a full frame camera. I would pay premium price for a premium Camera (I do not want cheap cameras !). Right now compact cameras are on a rise. The most perfect compact Camera, will be a Camera in style as the Contax T (first version) and/or Minox 35 ML, it should NOT have OVF, but an excellent EVF with high resolution and good magnification, I do NOT need a backside screen ! The Camera should be very easy to operate in full manual mode and the Lens should be an excellent high end 17mm Lens (35mm equivalent). The same will be for a mirrorless system MFT Camera, excellent EVF with high resolution and magnification and no backside screen, very easy to operate manually, remember a very good joystick !!! NO video functions or ability to hide ALL video functions and shut all video function OFF ! Also new high end compact MTF Lenses. I do not want speed, I want good build quality ! 99% of the time I do manual focus, so I do not need any fancy autofocus, but I do need an excellent EVF with high resolution and magnification. About size, there are NO excuses for Panasonic to make a new MTF camera that actually is a little bit larger and heavier than the full frame version ! All Sony Cameras are very compact for being full frame ! The Sony A7RV with a 61 megapixel sensor are SMALLER and more LIGHT WEIGHT than the Panasonic GH-7 MTF camera, that is too bad engineering of Panasonic !!! I do guess it is because Panasonic will not use more money on engineering for MTF cameras.
Makes total sense what you said and theorised here Richard. I have the G9ii and feel that with all the features and heat dissipation etc you could not make it much smaller so it made sense for Panasonic to just use the same chassis as the S5II. Despite this the G9II manages to be about 80g lighter than the S5II and with small MFT lenses is actually a very light weight camera system still. I never feel really that I would need a smaller camera although it would be fun of course, and I do hope against all odd it still might be possible to make one. The 25mp sensor in the G9II performs amazingly well in all areas. The image quality has taken a substantial leap since the previous generations.
Excellent video, Richard. Very reasonable perspective that I think we enthusiasts have to really try to understand. My maximum price would be US$1500, perhaps a little more if we got something GM5-sized or even G100/OM-5-sized. But at that price, it must have as many premium features as possible because you're also looking at some very compact and very capable APS-C and even full-frame cameras (X-T5, A7C series, etc). Personally, I am not at all interested in a "S9 with a M43 sensor". My wish list includes an EVF (even if not the best), IBIS, 4k60p video capability, the latest AF system and subject detection functionality, mechanical shutter (at least rear curtain, preferably full mechanical), hot shoe, mic input (via an adapter is okay), UHS-II SD card slot, and preferably a small, sculpted grip like the OM-5 or Panasonic's previous GX and LX series cameras, as well as weather-sealing and a high build quality. It's a lot to ask for, I know.
The reason why I can't take any of these arguments seriously is that the Panasonic GX85 already felt soooo close, back in 2016. Great stills quality, great 4K video quality, no overheating, amazing IBIS, attractive small size. It only needed PDAF, mic jack, USB-C charging, and a couple more fps on the burst rate, and such a camera would basically be competitive today. Back in the day, Olympus and Panasonic were pushing the boundaries of what was possible with cameras. I just have trouble believing that somehow, all progress ended in 2016.
Absolutely agree. The form factor and the size of the G85/G80 were unrivaled. My main frustration with it was - next to poor AF - it’s color science. And not only in jpegs! Also in raw, the colors were not great.
Same as the E-P7... It's mostly firmware choices holding it back for its position. Clearly all the tech fits in it. They could also give it the same body with a more durable material at the same size. USB C port going to throw their whole electrical engineering space out of whack?... Battery going to drain too fast if I'm allowed to set a custom minimum shutter speed?... wut...
@@fredio54 given the size of my hands I’m actually not interested in small smaller bodies. A properly fitting body is just as ergonomically important as easy to handle lenses.
@@shang-hsienyang1284 obviously it’s not 100% the same, but if you shoot in good light and don’t need super bokeh, it’s good enough and provides substantial size and weight savings.
Wise words Richard. Heat and power are really limiting factors. That said, I'd still like to see an S9 sized body for M43 with the G9 II sensor and a viewfinder. PS - still loving the shirt!
hey Gordon thank you! Yes I would also love to see a m43 S9 with EVF and if possible a mechanical shutter as well. But to be honest, I don't really find the lack of a mechanical shutter a real issue when shooting with S9, so it should be even less issue with the faster m43 sensor. The problem would be the price though. I have a feeling it will be easily around US$1500 PS. I'm also loving the shirt!
I honestly don't agree with quite that. I think there's a lot that could be done to modernize a more compact m43rds camera within the current heat and power limits as technology marches forward. It would keep the system unique at what both Olympus and Panasonic said the unique selling proposition would be. Take that out and you end with a specialist nature niche that will continue to also erode, or a very specialist video/hybrid market that Panasonic has the door already of where to go next (FF). Remember in the era of 43rds Panasonic said they were not leaving the format and where committed to it- until they left it. A slimmer FF less heat/power FF will eventually happen, it's only a matter of time. in some ways for some things it already has happened. But sure, I still see advantages for video for Panasonic with the GH7.
I think we know the answer. Look at the most iconic small cameras that still sell for a lot of money. Photo-centric, flat, no grip, no burst wonders, just a quality sensor, stylish controls and a decent AF. People who want that do not care for video specs or battery life or features you use for product photography and macro. Just good image quality and precision. And a high price tag. I am not a fan but I clearly see what they want. And am sure they can squeeze that in small package. One thing I share with Richard is that the sales are those who do not incite the production of such units. How’s health, Gordon? Cheers from the sunny, continental side if the North Sea.
Both Olympus and Panasonic made smaller cameras but no one bought them. I really do believe that if they were to do so again the people clamouring for them wouldn't buy them citing they were too expensive, too crippled in their features, etc etc. When the EP-5 came out no one bought it so it ended up being heavily discounted at a loss. The Pen F was introduced to address the criticisms and while it didn't tank as badly as the EP-5 it still wasn't a profitable camera. Panasonic made a premium compact in the form of the LX100 they ceased it because it didn't sell. Funnily enough Leica have persevered with it under their label and the latest model is sold out due to high demand.
It’s the timing - what’s old is now new again. People are turning away from smartphones now. The market is ripe for the return of cameras even point and shoots.
@@cristibaluta I bought the EP-5 it's a great little camera especially when teamed with the 17mm f2.8. But outside of Asia the Pen series doesn't sell well. It's a great shame. People are really strange - they only want something when they're told they can't have it.
Great explanation from an engineer’s point of view. The reality is that photographers do want a compact body with interchangeable lenses and are willing to sacrifice certain features to get it. What are they NOT willing to sacrifice? IBIS, RAW, great AF, a flip up/down rear LCD, EVF, and 24MP sensor. Will they be using that camera for wildlife? Probably not, which means users would be more willing to sacrifice pre-shot capture, and a large buffer for action. If camera makers open up a survey for all and not just “professionals” they would obtain a more accurate reading of what the majority of photographers really want. And I believe the cost ceiling would be around $1,200 USD.
For $1200 they can consider themselves lucky IF they get ibis and the 25MP sensor. If. The "large buffer" is just a bga dram unit, averaging $2 (or less in bulk). Burst rates? The video opengate fps limit is what they get on the photo side as well - same requirements for the image engine. So in reality they're not willing to sacrifice anything.
What do you think are the main tasks of the processors? IBIS calculations, PDAF calculations and subject recognition calculations are the biggest tasks on the processors. I think you didn’t understand Richard video when he talked from an engineering standpoint. An example is that prior to Sony A7IV, the previous A7s AF suffered if you attach an external monitor to the cameras. This proves how heavy AF calculations are on the processors. That is why Richard said you need the same processor as the S5II, so power hungry processor that needs a big battery. The problem in your thinking which is wrong is that removing video features will make the camera needs weaker processor.
What do you think are the main tasks of the processors? IBIS calculations, PDAF calculations and subject recognition calculations are the biggest tasks on the processors. I think you didn’t understand Richard video when he talked from an engineering standpoint. An example is that prior to Sony A7IV, the previous A7s AF suffered if you attach an external monitor to the cameras. This proves how heavy AF calculations are on the processors. That is why Richard said you need the same processor as the S5II, so power hungry processor that needs a big battery. The problem in your thinking which is wrong is that removing video features will make the camera needs weaker processor.
I am a GX-7 owner that held out as long as I could. Just bought a Fujifilm XT-50. It is only slightly heavier than my GX-7 and is basically the same dimensions (thinner but slightly taller). Weight of XT-50 plus the sigma 2.8 18-50 is LESS than the GX7 + Pany 2.8 12-35. All of this with a larger sensor. So this CAN be done. If course Fuji faces the same issues that you bring up, XT-50 is almost as expensive at the XT-5 but with fewer features. But for me, I don't care about the extra features in the XT-5, and I am willing to pay a fair bit for the smaller size.
I'm still shooting a GX85 and just getting newer lenses. It still does everything I need it to do, and none of the compact mft cameras released since have represented a significant upgrade that justify the price. It'd be nice to get a newer BSI 16mp sensor and next gen IBIS but that's not gonna happen because marketing is all about bigger number better.
Just to put things into perspective: the Sony A6700 is a pretty compact camera with all the features of a modern camera (PDAF tracking AF with AI/machine learning-based subject recognition, IBIS, 10bit video codecs + log profiles, modern 26 MP sensor). It should be possible, especially for a manufacturer with so much electronics expertise and in-house technology as Panasonic, to produce an MFT camera with a similar form factor and similar features, and perhaps even better IBIS. I think the real reason is that camera manufacturers at some point decided that compact cameras, even with MFT sensors, would no longer competitive against smartphones, and that the only way to persuade customers to still buy cameras was to max out their features, resulting in bigger bodies for higher prices. Compared to the a6700, the A9ii has almost twice (=1.94x) the body volume and one third more weight...
You're absolutely right, and they use the same A6700 APS-C body for their full-frame A7C II series (basically the same photo and video quality features as the A7 IV) and the A7CR (same photo quality as the A7R V and almost the same video quality as the A7R V). So Sony shows that it is possible to build a compact camera even for a full format sensor.
@@wolfgangpetersun2730 i think that proves what Richard said, the body size is the same no matter you put a full frame, micro four thirds or APSC sensor. Sensor size is not affecting the body size much at all these days,
IBIS is way inferior to Panasonic m43 IBIS, it overheats in 4k60, 4k120 has a huge crop (hence way less data to process), the sony e mount is undersized for the sensor so you get classic -3EV in the corners, only 1 card slot, no full hdmi, way worse handling, small evf, etc, etc. No.
@@haploguy If you need 4K60 and 4K120, dual card slots and full size HDMI, you're not looking for a small MFT camera, but for a camera in the class and with the size of the GH7. There are, however, other people, who do not need any of this and would prefer an MFT camera with a compact body... And this discussion here is actually about them.
Thanks for your video! For your statistics, I'm swapping my MFT lenses such as the Panasonic Lumix 20mm f1.7 for the small Sony SEL 40mm f2.5 G, the Panasonic Leica DG Summilux 25mm f1.4 II ASPH for the small Sony SEL 50mm f2.5 G, etc. These full frame lenses are similarly priced. Since Sony is showing how small cameras can be built with the full frame a7c camera series, I'm no longer waiting for a compact Micro Four Thirds camera from Panasonic. Instead of a new Lumix MFT GX9, Panasonic is coming out with an incomplete FF Lumix S9, thereby ignoring its MFT customers. Now I'm forced to invest money in another system. The only answer for me as a consumer is no more Panasonic products!
I think the issue is people are judging the performance, size and price of the system on a camera level and sensor size level. They don’t consider the size of the lens and the amount of different lenses you have to carry in ff to cover the same range as in mft. at a slight trade off in image quality, many mft lenses replace the need of 2 or 3 bodies in ff. Think of the 40-150f2.8, or the 12-100f4. Effectively in use case, you can’t cheaply replace those lenses with just one lens and one body on ff, you’d need a bunch of primes and a big bag to carry all that.
So a 40-150 f2.8 is equivalent to a 80--300 f5.6 and the 12-100 f4 is equivalent to a 24-200 f8. Tamron makes a 70-300 f4.5-6.3 and also a 28-200 f2.8-f5.6. Both Tamron lenses are significantly lighter and significantly less expensive than their MFT near equivalents. This is generally the case for 'equivalent' lenses and this no weight savings. In the final analysis, you can't get around the laws of optics and the smaller MFT sensor does allow to smaller lenses only at the cost of light gathering capability. ps - I am not bashing MFT versus FF ... there is no one size that fits all and many folk love MFT ... just clarifying the tradeoffs.
@@meta4101 A real equivalent would be more described by a theoretical 80mp FF camera that you can crop 200% to get a sharp 20mp image. In that camera, 12-100f4 for example would be even more versatile than in mft, but would probably be incredibly expensive, so much so they don’t make it. They make more than one lens that covers that range, that’s why I said you need to carry more than 1 body. The image of a 12-100f4 is not a 24-200f8. It’s a really sharp 12-100f4 cropped 200% into 20mp.
@@dasaen You obviously know the formula for equivalence. If you choose to not employ it it when comparing lenses on different sensor formats, that's a choice ..,,, by the way, even for "equivalent" Lenses FF has twice the resolution and superior dynamic range. Again, I am not bashing MFT ... it is a fun, lightweight format and definitely has its place ,,, but the law of optics are immutable.
@@meta4101 I choose not to employ for low light comparisons because it is not accurate, some people would think for example that the 12-100f4 on mft looks as dark as a 24-200f8. But it doesn’t, it looks as bright as a 24-200f4 but with an f8 depth of field and slightly less image detail, which can be a significant benefit in macro, wildlife and video (Your focus pulling can be less precise). I agree with your statement on the benefits of FF, I think with time cameras would have enough resolution that most people would just buy FF and crop.
@@dasaen Not just light gathering, but bokeh, resolution and dynamic range are all affected by sensor size. That said, small sensors can produce wonderful images in the right circumstances. I prefer my rx100 with a 1 inch sensor when i am trail running and need a truly pocketable camera. Likewise for daytime street photography, small bodies (i use aps-c) and diminutive lenses are preferable and a lot more fun. For more demanding projects, my full frame a7r5, as you point out, with its huge 61mp sensor gives me the most options for extreme cropping, low light performance and, particularly, bokeh. Enjoy the journey ...
I'm still clinging to the idea of a G90 successor, but I know it would be somehow different in some of the minute things that make it my favourite camera.
I would love to see a GX9 II that would be a MFT spin on the S9. Basically taking the G9 II and putting it in a rangefinder style body but also having a mic jack for video. Don't need all of the top video features, 60FPS 4K would be fine, also with PDAF and IBIS. But if they just make a few fast pancake primes for the S9, it'd probably just make me upgrade out of MFT.
As one of the old "guys" (LOL) who has been taking photos since 1978 and who is interested in the MFT format, I must say that the biggest draw back that I see in the quality of MFT (and incidentally in the APSC and full frame formats also) is the bit depth. There is a "gritty-ness" (sorry for the neologism) or choppy look to the colors in the MFT images. Color variations do not seem to transition smoothly in the 12 bit rendering. This is very easy to see if we make an extreme comparison between a 12 bit MFT image and Fuji’s “medium” format which is 16 bit. I’m guessing that the smoothness in the medium format images is not because of the pixel size but rather the bit depth. After all, the pixel size in the Fuji GFX 100S-II 101Mp is 3.78 micron versus 3.34 micron in the (Olympus) OM System OM-1-II. The “smoothness” in the color transitions of the 16 bit images are very noticeable. Thanks for your video!
I agree, I have had mine for about 8 months and have only used my G9 once. Very underrated little camera, great IQ. With my Nissin i40 I can get up to 1/500th sync speed using HSS.
Good take. It's easy to forget about tradeoffs and costs. I have a GX85 which is already close to an ideal camera for me. I'd like a larger, higher quality viewfinder (my Nikon Z6 EVF is stunning comparatively) and USB-C charging. PDAF would be nice, but I use manual focus lenses 99% of the time anyway. With premium materials and light weight (I know, a contradictioin) I'd consider $1,500 new.
Heat and power with today's processors may be limiting factors when they're clocked at their peak, for maximum performance -- like they are in larger bodies. But a relatively small reduction in peak and idle frequencies would allow for lower voltage operation, and subsequently a significant reduction in power consumption and heat.
Rich, this really nails the question. Really appreciated input here, most ppl are still looking at this from a wish list perspective, but you describe the engineering and marketing reality of the situation. If ppl want a small, interchangeable lens M4/3 camera, they may as well bag the GM1, GM5, Pen F, GX9 etc. while they can be found in good nick on the used market.
I wish there was a m4/3 camera like the Ricoh GXR, where you have the mount/sensor as a separate module. Then you could re-use the sensor when upgrading to a newer body.
hello richard, thx for this excellent video. i have fallen in love once again with micro 4/3 cameras. the G9 II . the feature set is an outstanding upgrade ! and i don't have any complaints with the slight increase in size what so ever. the big bonus for micro 4/3 is the smaller, lighter lenses so overall the package is still very compact. the gx9 is an excellent compact camera especially when paired with the lumix 15 mm f1.7 lens. this camera was a commercial failure because it was packaged with a lens, we couldn't purchase this as a camera only. this was a huge marketing blunder causing the discontinuation ( read death of) the excellent gx9 which i still charish. zen billings in canada
So miniaturization is something we accept as incurring cost in other markets like phones and laptops. It would require a mindset shift in the camera market but I don't think it would be difficult given how similar cameras are to computers and phones. I agree with Wong's desire for a super premium compact camera, one that has a completely metal exterior, would be very successful.
Camera market is vastly smaller and shrinking, they cant justify the cost to miniaturize. That being said the S9 almost hit the mark, if only it had the option for a hotshoe evf and small lenses available at release.
@@marklion315 The market has already bottomed out, and it does not make sense that there wouldn't be a price point for a miniature camera when you have pricey cameras like the pixii, leica q and m series , Leica d-lux and fuji x100 series cameras shooting up in price and being sold out.
Hey @Carthodon i was going to bring up laptop in the video as well. But yes we don't seem to accept that smaller camera = give up some features even if the price is higher.
I don’t think you can make that comparison bc mostly everyone still needs a laptop so there’s more flexibility in the market. No one needs a camera anymore bc of smartphones. I think if your smartphone could do everything that the MacBook Air could then you’d still have people that prefer to use a laptop over a smartphone but most people buying laptops would be buying gaming laptops to play games or other high performance tasks that just won’t work on a smartphone. And laptops like the Asus G14 wouldn’t sell anymore bc the only people that but laptops are buying them for a significant performance upgrade over their phone. They’re not willing to compromise on performance for a relatively trivial 5lbs vs 4lbs laptop.
Very nice video Richard, very good explanation and well thought. I have the G9II and I was expecting the S9 to come with M4/3 but after I saw the specs I was little bit disappointed compare to the price, so I think you are tottaly right, If S9 would come with M4/3 I would still buy another G9II for 2nd camera than an S9 M4/3 with such a price.
If any outcome is a set of compromises, then they could "cripple" the LX100m2 by churning out a photo-centric camera with the same sensor, but with a fixed lens, tilting OLED screen, no EVF (they can sell it separately), a cleaner UI, the same battery, but with USB C charging, and built in film simulations. I'd buy that. Even without weather sealing and improved 4k video and mic jack.
Your analysis seems reasonable, thanks for that! But if I get this right, your premise is that people only say they want only a few new/better features in a compact body but if they get what they say they want, they would still opt for a full-featured but bigger camera. I don't know if that is really the case. It wasn't for me for sure. A couple of years ago I had to retire my old E-M1 and had to choose between the latest then E-M1 Mark III and the E-M5 Mark III which used already several years old technology. I was tempted to go for the newest toy but I couldn't get past the bigger size and weight that came with it. MFT's main appeal is the balance between size, weight and features. So I bought the E-M5 Mark III and I don't regret my choice. I wish there was something qualitatively new out there in a similar body but until it comes around, i will still use my old and somewhat stunted but otherwise perfectly adequate camera.
What a fantastic and competent presentation! I agree with everything you said there. I opted for an EM 10 mk4 with small kit lens as a walkaround camera. Until I can afford Leica.
I’m surprised you didn’t point to the DLUX-8 from Leica as a great example of these consequences. Essentially they’ve used the old LX100ii platform, but they’ve made those software, processor, USBC, viewfinder, screen upgrades (and re-skinned the body) - and they’re selling for a premium price. It’s difficult for a lot of folk (me included) to see past that old sensor and lens… even with all the development costs of the enhanced components added.
If you don't need an interchangeable lens system then a rebooted LX100 might work (with a prime rather than zoom lens). Certainly the D-LUX 8, while over-priced, seems to be pitching into that space. That said, it would need to compete well with the GRIII and X100 equivalents. Or a G100 but in a range-finder body? In the meantime, I'll have to stick with my G100, GX1, and E-PM1 setups. (I have searches set up for the GM1 and GF1 to alert me should one pop up in the NZ marketplace secondhand). Good video putting yourself in the manufacturer's shoes.
I'm actually kind of grateful for the way that this video killed my hope for a new mft camera. I need to just be happy with the kit I have. I love my g9ii, but I really want a lighter camera. I sold my gx85 cause I just didn't use it anymore. My g9ii (though heavier) is better ergonomically. the gx85 is lighter, but in the hand, honestly it isn't a make or break difference. Once lumix lab is up and running for the g9ii (possibly tomorrow!) there will be even more reasons to use the newer camera. I wish there was a smaller lighter body with newer tech, I often regret selling my gx85, but in reality i know that a way better shooting experience trumps the weight savings 232g.
Thank you for this clear and concise explanation. However, I can do just fine with the current technology. If I want to work with advanced technology, I accept that I have to use a larger and heavier camera such as the Lumix G9 II. A compact camera has its advantages, especially for travel and street photography. For that, after the Lumix gx9, I now use the Olympus Pen F. I hope that I can continue to use it for a long time because there is still no equivalent replacement. This is also noticeable in the second-hand prices of both the GX9 and the Pen F. Due to the limitation of the Fuji X100 camera, no interchangeable lens, this is out of the question for me. This in addition to the purchase price, which in my opinion is too high.
We see it all the time on DPR Rich with wanting a smaller m4/3 body. I understand the constraints as well though as you pointed out. I use large tele lenses on m4/3 and to be honest, the size of the body makes little difference in handling. The lenses are where it counts. I would love to see smaller bodies and just hope m4/3 does get some new ones. Not crossing my fingers though.
G95 is a good camera size and features. It is also cheap. If the battery is large and have phase detect, sure I would buy one . And I am sure it will be popular in Lumix line.
I commented on Richards G95 vs G85 DFD test video last year. To my surprise the G95 crept in as a budget friendly hybrid sweet spot. If DFD and the 30 minute recording limit isn't a concern the G9 is also in there. For Olympus E-M1 II (PDAF beast) and E-M10 II (tilt LCD, not a hybrid though). Looks like they are our micro D800 or 5D II for years to come.
Many thanks. First time an Engineer providing key technical reasons what goes on while releasing a new camera. Your explanation makes a lot of sense. I know many people still want best Lumix camera of about 5-7;years old technolgy around 15-20 mp. No new useless fancy features. I respect your views very much. What will be your recommendation in Lumix line. Right now, I am using GF3.
I think it has way more to do with the consumer camera market being near non-existent in 2024. When M43’s cameras had their hay day 2009-2013, most people had a point and shoot camera for family photos. Smartphone cameras weren’t there yet. Anyone who came up against the low light limitations of point and shoots found their way to those great compact M43s cameras - like the Pen EPL series. Now even the family members of mine who used to carry a DSLR everywhere are just using their phones too. Panasonic has stretched the Micro 4/3 platform as a professional tool, and it benefits from this great library of lenses. There’s more money in that than any consumer compact camera. It would not be technically hard at all to upgrade many of the 10-year old 16MP era M43 cameras (GX85, GM1, GM5, Pen F) to the current 5-year old 20mp sensor, just like the cameras that did get the upgrade (Em10, EM5, etc) without changing their dimensions. But they wouldn’t sell, for rhe same reason you can’t even buy a new Canon PowerShot anymore. There’s enough of a market to drive the price of these cameras up used, but once new supply is there I just can’t see it. Fujifilm got the hype machine trending enough to make it but this is such a niche market I don’t think there’s room for anyone else.
Wonderfully informative video! As for myself, I have reached the end of my gear acquisition with the Olympus E-M5 Mk III. I have many (too many) Olympus MFT cameras. I love them all! I would trade a few; for example, my E-PM2 should have replaced my E-PL1, but I still have them both. I have been a loyal fan of Olympus since the 1970s, and I'm not about to change now! I love other camera systems too, having recently become infatuated with, and acquiring, several Pentax Q series cameras. At this point in my life, I cannot imagine what new innovations will I come to regard as absolutely essential, but... who knows?
I would be very happy with a S9 but micro 4/3rds, mostly because the lenses are way more compact. In fact I emailed Panasonic and suggested they release one.
Probably because there are still quite a lot of older models in stock with retailers. If they release new models it competes with the cameras already "out in the wild". These things tend to be on RTV basis with the official retailers, meaning anything that doesn't sell is usually returned to the manufacturer so they have an incentive to sell out existing models before introducing competitors.
They should have carried on making the gx9. I think people would still be buying it. It's still a really good camera. Same goes for the gx80. Also being older technology it may have been possible to lower the price. There are a lot of people (me included) that cannot afford a super expensive camera.
I have a Panasonic G3, GX9, and GH3, 4, 5, 6. All of them are a lot easier to carry around than a Canon F1n. Would rather see Panasonic develop a new version of the 20mm f1.7 with better auto focus.
I like the size of the G85. It just feels great in the hand and isn't too heavy, to small, or too big. Hopefully we can get a feature reach GH7 with half the weight!
Letˋs face it: Sigma created the fp-l with a 61MP full frame sensor in a very small and robust body for a high price. No IB-stabilization and very reduced functionality. The result of the community was clear: No success! But I think that many people liked the design and the idea behind this construction. There must be some major reasons why this camera had so many “flaws”. And I’m pretty sure that Sigma knew all of these reasons but they still had the balls to built this camera because they knew that who ever in the market would try to build something like the fp-l would face the same limitations. I think this is simply based on the points you mentioned in this video. A high power camera in a small body is not possible in the moment. Technology sets its limits. Thank you very much for your great explanations, Richard.
One thing different is, Sigma's camera projects always appear to me like they are created as a "fun project" as it's really not their core business and they never really aim to sell millions of them. I have a feeling Sigma don't really rely on their cameras to make money as they sell tonnes of lenses for all the mounts anyway. All their cameras are like prototype/concept camera that somehow end up in the market.
Just a few random thoughts from an older photographer, and a recent M43 Lumix user. Here is what is on my list. Image sharpness: initially I was fooled into thinking it’s from the lens or focusing, but as of late I want get better stabilization. I’d be looking to upgrade for better stabilization. Multi axis stabilization perhaps 3axis in camera 2axis in lens. For tele and macro uses. Tell Olympus and Lumix stop the “silly” stabilization game. What good is an a M43 lens mount where one can mount Olympus lens on a Lumix if there is no stabilization. Because Olympus uses IBIS and Lumix uses Optical. Develop the M43 concept further than just an equal lens mount Another area that causes motion blur is shutter actuation. With a D200, battery grip with two batteries there is mass there to stabilize the body for shutter clicks. With a tiny camera it doesn’t have that mass. How about a front mounted button like a Miranda Sensorex, or even better voice commands to change parameters or shutter actuations or exposure lock Etc… I’m always looking for better ISO/Noise performance Something to solve the dust on sensor problem. It’s like performing open heart surgery to change a lens over a naked sensor.
Personally all your points and reasoning are correct, there is no fault... as an System Engineer with a MBA.. i affirm it. But there is a very valid point here: Companies that not satisfy the prevailing market needs are destined to disappear... that is a rule yes or yes... miniaturization in affordable technology is growing but in contrast the irresponsible accelerated consumption RULES THE WORLD OF ECONOMY and companies try to achieve make money.. right? ..So... in the long term, the principles of logic in development going to be displaced.. another "yes or yes". Moore's law is already obsolete, right?.. for example; Nvidia graphics accelerator "Tesla cards" cost US$6000 just a few years ago ...today only cost US$200... better example, impossible. Grettings from Mexico... you're one of the best Brainy 🧠 photographers on all TH-cam... 🙏🏻✌🏻
thank you! Yes it's a matter of whether companies managed to find ways to deliver what people want with all the challenges they have. Unfortunately a lot of time it's much harder to do than say
Panasonic made a brilliant move with the S9. This is an absolutely perfect camera I have been waiting for 10 years. I wouldn't have even touched it, if it were a micro four third camera. Now, with my fantastic S9 with a couple of gorgeous compact Sigma lenses, I am a new Panasonic / Sigma customer.
Great video, but I think it's missing the point. No one looking for a compact camera is looking for those things. 99% of consumers will use their phones or only record sub 20 second videos. EP-5 and such are massive examples of not understanding consumers. They were smaller, but lacked a viewfinder. The major thing that makes a camera FEEL like it's not a smartphone. Nowadays, people NEED cheap and WANT small. MFT used to have that in spades. 1.5k+ for MFT is wild.
There’s no new small cameras right now to protect the X100 and Ricoh GR. Give it enough time and you’ll likely only see a modest refresh of the Pen F, with a price hike.
perfect and comprehensive video. Thank you. Please, Richard, tell Panasonic if it would be a good idea to make a real PHOTO camera. Wlth only basic video features. BUT with every possible serious photography ones. There is a beautiful and "alive" world out there who love the true photography and does not give a damn about video. Its the world that believes that photography is the real art of expression. The process, the interaction, the editing, the sense and the smell of the printed paper... Its the world who want to take that perfect rangefinder Leica camera with ONLY the 50mm lens attached for everything and for life! BUT, they cannot afford it!!! On the other hand, many, like me love Panasonic and re proud users of Lumix cameras. We know Panasonic is a video oriented company. In fact, they re the very best. But, as a pure photographer, i think that nonw can prevent me from dreaming... Richard, i appreciate...
I think with Panasonic's strong video focus means it's unlikely they will bring out a new camera that has only basic video features. In some way it doesn't make sense for them to do that as well as all the video features are already there developed and it cost them nothing to include them as they will be using the same processor/sensor anyway. But it would cost them money if they remove them as the sales number would probably be less. Even more photo oriented brands like Nikon is making their cameras more and more video focused. Look at the Nikon Zf and Z6III, a lot of the design/features are focusing more for videographers than photographers. Fujifilm is kind of the same (but at least the XT5 is more photo focus than the XT4) I don't disagree with you though, i would love to see some 100% (or 90%) photo focus camera from Panasonic
For such a thing to be possible they need 1. a modular board design that can scale based on features, ports, battery and cooling between both mounts (m43 and L mount) 2. a modular image engine design where features (AF capability, photo burst rates, video specs) can be physically removed from the board layout OR a way to turn them off completely in firmware so they don't use power - second option is more likely since you'd rather bulk order one part than 3 or 4 based on sku demand The rest will literally be the same. Both of these endeavors are expensive and I doubt any m43 vendor has the resources, plus it will take years to develop for uncertain ROI.
A new version of the Olympus PM1 or LUMIX GM1, 16 mega pixel sensor but optimised for low light sensitivity to compete against phone cameras at events and venues. No articulated screen as makes the camera too bulky. Make sure there is an extra physical dial control so the cameras have an advantage over a phone as per the EPL10. Built in IS, that can be optimised for shooting portrait video if the cameras is used rotated. Built in flash and hot shoe. Mic input for blogging or allow the hot shoe to take a mic accessory. Keep the price under that of a medium level phone so around €750.
The Canon R8 is $1300 and weighs 461 grams. M43 can’t compete on price anymore so they have two options: 1. the heavy, expensive ultra-pro route like the GH7 2. the expensive lifestyle camera that equals the Fujifilm X100 VI in perceived performance while beating it on style, weight and size. 1 is the safe play, 2 is a risk but it can bring much profit if done right - the lens needs to be special.
Great explanation! However, smartphones on the other side get new features as well, but the size stays the same. I guess the increase in size is driven by demand for larger cameras by DSLR shooters. A lot of people complain about small grips. But the points stated in the video still apply, especially the costs for developing smaller bodies and a shrinking market, that makes it economically infeasible to offer smaller bodies. One solution could be to reuse generic smartphone hardware within a compact camera. If AI features and hardware encoding would be done on the smartphone chips a lot of development costs for custom chips could be saved.
hi @phatoni, my understanding is that smartphone and camera requires very different kind of processor and operating system so unfortunately it's very hard for a camera to use the latest off the shelf mobile chipset. Maybe that's also why some of the hybrid mobile/camera that was released in the past end up having two operating systems/processor. One for the phone features and one for the camera features
I'm under the impression that people just want an updated rangefinder style M43 with internals of the G9II albeit with some video limitations. So basically the successor to the GX9. If this thing ever does come out though, it needs to be a premium built product with things like brass knobs and top/bottom plate, no visible screws, drilled inked in lettering... or whatever that can give off that "legacy/craftsman's piece of art" aura. The price needs to exceed what makes logical sense but not too much where a bit of GAS can't fill that gap. Because in an age where APS-C and FF cameras and lenses are getting so small and cheap competing solely on the merits of spec is a fools game. Fuji cameras, especially the X100 series is basically that; a camera that can masquerade as a fashion item and a Leica stand in. It might be weird to shell out so much for a M43 camera but with the new LUT format they are pushing and modern day specs, it should be more than enough for 99% of even the most dedicated street shooters for years to come, easily. The sex appeal should cover the rest. The thing is though... Panasonic's 水道哲学 business philosophy directly goes against this. I'm not sure if it applies to their camera division but it's probably why they leave the premium items to Leica and why their cameras always feel a bit cheap compared to other brands, even on the high end. Though it can be argued that the timing wasn't right, we as consumers had our chance with the GM1/5 and the GX9 and literally no one batted an eye. The GM5 and especially the GX9 puttered out of existence so fast, a lot of people didn't know they even existed. I can understand why Panasonic would be super reluctant to take a swing at this again.
I’m sure it’s coming, camera manufacturers have seen the want for compact street cameras, it just takes 3-5 years to create a new camera. I suspect that we will see a suddenly explosion of niche compacts from every major manufacturer to compete with the GRIII and X100.
GF1 for me too, but then nothing until GH5 10 years later, but then a used GX9 shortly later, which for me is the GF1 modern version. A compact G9 mk 2 would be awesome though.
@@TheRealRichardWong the body of mine was deformed from multiple severe drops. I took literally tens of thousands of photos as per the built in shutter stats. Can't recall the exact number. Have a record somewhere. I wish I had the leica 15 and oly 45 back then. The 14-140 mk1 was good, but nit in low light or indoors.
Very good video. The biggest miss with OM Systems is not releasing a new Pen F with the popularity of similar cameras in the same segments. I think the main reason that OM System is dropping the ball on this is because they don't have the capacity/bandwidth to maintain more product lines than they currently do. They are a very, VERY SMALL company now - almost like an artisan workshop. So they have to move up the value chain and offer fewer, but more premium, higher priced products with a higher margin. There are two ways to achieve that: top of the line flagship products like the OM1 series. And re-released older models like the E-M1III with costs savings (cheaper body, cheaper parts) and no development costs which basically got rebranded as the OM5. Small, compact cameras do not fit that strategy, they're not high margin enough and OM System as that small player now cannot afford to play they low margin game.
It was interesting to find out your opinion, Richard ! In my opinion, there is no problem for Panasonic and OMS to build tiny cameras. The problem is that phones are much smaller and a better option for the people which want portability. The entry level cameras are in competition with the phones and all the producers knows that entry level cameras have no future. Cameras cannot win portability competition against phones. The users which are still buying cameras are enthuziastic users which demands performance : big buffer, fast frame rate, good battery, recoding movies without heating, big EVF....etc.
I don't think that'll work. My understanding is that the camera processor works very differently from the generic ARM chipset. So that's why camera companies always have to develop their own processor.
Wild idea, make a "compute unit" plug-in board like RPi using MII. And it can be plugged into the lens mount + sensor + IBIS combo. The compute unit should have custom hardware or FPGA for image processing. It can be reprogrammed or swapped for specific video or image processing features, and option to upgrade for higher frame rates or processing capabilities. Portrait shooters can get the slower ones, while sports shooters can get the faster ones. It can have a few form factors like PC motherboards' ITX, ATX etc for different cooling setups, and fits into corresponding size case.
I hope for something similar to appear but have no idea if it's realistic at all. There are two kickstarter ventures* using the MFT mount on a bring-your-own-smartphone-as-render-engine platform. Other mounts may be proprietarily locked down for third parties forever so speedboosters are still needed. Conversely the OM-1 can power OM Workspace processing (aka USB RAW) through a USB-C cable that also supplies power. So you can do otherwise CPU/GPU intensive edits on basic PC/mac hardware, think of it as an external GPU (aka eGPU), they've been around since Thunderbolt 3. * Alice camera SwitchLens
Hello, thanks for the recommendations. After checking, Alice is promising a lot, but ZV-E10 and SwitchLens are destroying its value proposition. SwitchLens, on the other hand, might have a good time with a small MF lens. But it needs work on connecting the lens and the delays after taking a shot. Maybe just add an NFC tag to connect the phone and launch the app, at the same time, wake the device. And the image preview experience can be improved by progressive load, compression or a faster connection. When Olympus Air-01 came out, you could apply for some access for app developers. I don't know how strict it is, it looked optimistic, but it's over now. Toshiba FlashAir Wi-Fi SD card also had some developer access, but it's also discontinued. Those two products had so much potential to reduce the friction of sharing the images or doing some off-camera enhancements :(
..I recently purchased the OM5 ...and I love it/.. I am also a Sony user/.with the evolution of generative AI...I love upscaling my images .. with a couple of primes is a no brainer ...🎉
I guess the manufacturers are trying to add more and more features… so yeah the new cameras are bigger. I’m trying to decide on a MFT camera to shoot real estate - but finding one is pretty difficult. I want it to be at least 25mp, support 3 or 5 AE bracket but allowing me to vary the range (lumix don’t do this) and also allow delayed shooting on the bracket shot - pana does this but apparently OM don’t. It also needs a hot shoe mount for a flash trigger. Ideally good AF and 4K50p at 10 bit colour with 150mbits. If any of the current cameras did it even at the GH7 price I’d pay it.
You have oddly specific technical points in there. The Olympus 8-25 f4 would likely be a good fit for your requirements, and possibly the LUMIX G9 II or the older OM-1 (mark I) as a suitable body. Video would be better on the G9 II. Perhaps look at the specifications of these two. Hand-held high resolution mode on the OM-1 will deliver 50 Mpixel. Why you’d actually need that, I don’t know.
@@boggisthecat cheers. Yeah I was reading about handheld but I read / watched issues with household lights especially fluros. And yeah, RE is a little different to birding etc that OM is renown for. I've already got the Laowa 7.5 f2, 8-18 Pana/ Leica and the Para 7-14 but yeah the Olympus ones do look like they are better glass.
@@southcoastpix9678 Lighting is a good point. Although I would think you’d only see issues with fast shutter speeds. (All lights pulse at mains frequency or higher. LED is the most abrupt transition - fully on to fully off at a high frequency.) Video has always had to work around this issue. Perhaps you could rent or borrow a G9 II and / or GH7 to try? Often a feature you may think is really important turns out to be unnecessary.
Long story short, with advancements to chip fabrication technology, larger image sensors are not that much more expensive than smaller ones any more. I stopped waiting for a PDAF GX camera and bought a A7C in 2020. On the other hand, I'm happy with my second-hand OM-1 for casual birding.
It all comes down to the difference between the pro and hobbyist. Pros want full features, and size is not the biggest concern. They also have more to spend on a cam, thus more profit margin. Hobbyists want small and reasonably priced. And most simply go with their phone. A small Lumix is thought of by most as a compact cam, and that market is dead.
Any enthusiast have enough money to buy Nikon Z9 or other expensive cameras. Many birders and wildlife photographers are not professional but hobbyist but have plenty of money to buy expensive camera and lenses.
@@angeloplayforone Yes, many have the money to buy it. However if you do a simple google search for small camera sales over the last decade, you will see those sales numbers are in sharp decline. People simply do not want them any longer, outside a very small niche here and there, like you mention. But that isn't nearly enough to keep production lines going. Literally BILLIONS of people feel their phone is good enough. I bought a G85 years ago (with the nice 12-60 included!) for $600. You know Lumix didn't make much on it. But they likely sold hundreds of thousands of them. That market isn't there now. I also bought a GH6, which they likely made a good chunk on, even if they didn't sell huge numbers it was enough to justify the GH7. Also keep in mind we aren't talking about those cute small cameras that shot film. Digital cameras have tons of tech that costs a lot of money to develop, license, build, etc. The overhead is insane compared to building film cameras.
@@angeloplayforone Let me also add a story: I was in B&H Photo some years back, chatting with one of the guys I've known for decades. He was telling me that most of the high-end camera sales are not to pro shooters. Most are to dentists from NJ who take photos of their families. Talk about niche! The point being, the photo market is quite complex. Until you see actual sales markets and numbers, all of this "should be" stuff is just guessing in the wind.
I think you hit all the nails on the head with this one! So nothing to add, but Lumix is really in a tough spot. They simply can't develop a small camera within the profit they expect from it, so they need to sacrifice so much on capability that the market size drops, or use leftover technology years later than the market wants. Personally I think external EVF is a great idea, keep that headline below $1200 with the 25mp sensor and let people decide if they care enough to add it back.
I (Canon shooter) think the Quaterframe is limited exactly by the sensor - or rather, by the diameter of the mount. Recent professional m43 are quite big cameras sporting almost comically small mount. Hence there is no way anybody can (if so desired) to keep using m43 and going say for fullframe. Basically Olympus at one time said "1/4 of a frame is enough for everybody" and designed themselves into a quite small corner. With EOS mount, one could either get big and heavy, or relatively small and light, although not as much as m43, but there's the choice while also not leaving the system. And there's only so much you can do with a small diameter mount when the sensors cannot really go any denser without being hideously diffraction limited and blowing up any optical weakness of the lens into big proportions.
We need new gx and lx cameras with Real tinme lut feature. S9 should have been a fixed lens camera to make sense. There is market for that now. What we need now is gx10 with gx80 size and controls but with mic jack. Live nd if possible like those on olympus cameras. DR boost. Compact. Stylish. Pop up flash. Good evf. And a new Lx100 with nd filter and leaf shutter. Super stylish and retro with manual controls. I wish if it can do infrared photography with switching the IR cut filter to the side. No permanent conversation needed. How cool that will be?? Real time luts on this package will be more fun and the community can create and share recipes like fuji. But as u said the price am willing to pay is max at 1200 USD😅 guess its going to be only in a wishlist.
Sorry but it's not spot on. The main reason why there is stil no small m43 camera is that there is a huge competition coming from the smartphones, and the fact that for example Sony has already released such cameras (a6700, A7C II). Another reason that they do not want to canibalize their own big models that are obviously kinda expensive. Anyways I still hope there is one day any camera like Pen F or GX9. If it's not the case I will change the system. Cheers
The approach is of an expert. Richard is unique, I thoroughly enjoyed his reasoning here. But I still dare to oppose him. Why is Olympus/OM System able to maintain practically the same body since E-M1 mark II down the four generations of their flagship model, and still add that many incredible new features, most of them computational? Why is much much more capable G9 mark II exactly the same weight as his six years older brother G9? Why are most FF bodies capable of size reduction to equal or better the MFT when there's such a difference in sensor read-out, AF complexity and other stuff going on there? Nice discussion you've unlocked here Richard, and we don't mind that Lumix thumbnail ad :))
One "hopeful" sign is that Panasonic seems to have preserved the tooling to re-issue the FZ80. In particular, the molds to create a plastic camera body can be extremely expensive to create from scratch, even with CAD and 3D printing. That Panasonic managed to substitute in a USB-C connector in the new FZ-80 sheds new light on OM System's badly gauged retention of the old USB connector in the OM-5. Perhaps OM didn't have the ability to change the physical layout of the body. I also wonder if OM System inherited the tooling for, say, the PEN-F. If not, starting from scratch on a new PEN-F would be enormously expensive for a company that shows no sign of being rich enough to do so. And as you say, it would be difficult to cram all the newest MFT tech into a body as compact as a PEN-F or GX-9. At very least an accommodation will need to be made for a larger battery. I'm hoping that a tech-aggressive company like DJI will take on the compact MFT challenge. DJI seems to be extraordinarily innovative AND responsive to user needs, as the Pocket 3 demonstrates. DJI is already a member of the MFT alliance.
DJI is also a member of the L-Mount Alliance and I would love to see what they could come up with in the mirrorless space. Pretty much everything they currently make is so impressive from a technical perspective, that I think they could really do some amazing things with stabilization, computational photography features, autofocus, UI and interface, app/mobile integration, etc.
I doubt it's mainly the technical reasons why we don't see small (and/or affordable) M43 cameras. I think it's just easier to sell a limited amount of enthusiasts with a lot of money very expensive, maximum featured cameras and lenses with a big margin. My guess is: There isn't really enough demand for a low margin, high volume approach in the camera sector anymore. Even the few new point & shoots, speciality and retro cameras are exclusively aimed at high price, high margin, low volume nowadays. That said, I would buy a decently priced small M43 to replace my 10 year old one, if it had some better features, even if compromising. I just love the small form factor of body and lenses and I really don't need full frame or crop sensors (or 4K+ video) for anything. But that's just me I guess...
How about a gx8 mark ii? Seems like with the extra space with the grip could help with space for keeping cool, and the processor, and still gives photographers the EVF, and gives the videographers the Flippy screen and mic jac. They could redesign the grip a bit, as the original is kinda uncomfortable. The gf3, gf5, g3 style grip would be pretty cool! The g3, which had a smaller grip than the g5, g6, g7, g9, is also a cool compact design, that still has an evf, and could probably house a bigger processor.
LOL I've watched your video last night just before i sleep as well! I thought your was a reaction to mine :P Hey we can still dream about our perfect camera and the camera god may deliver to us one day!
@@TheRealRichardWong Haha Maybe I will change the Title and thumbnail to a picture of you saying "Richard Wong destroyed my M43 Dream!" TH-cam love online BEEF!!! 😄
Panasonic know that lots of people have MFT lenses. If they can make a compact that can make use of all those lenses out there, there will be a market for that compact body.
For a really premium small and light MFT (photo centric) cam I would nearly pay the same price as for the G9ii as I‘ll use it even more often and for me ergonomics, size, design is even more important than most of the tech features. But some core specs should be there: Highly improved mobil connectivity, More than 20mpx, Hybrid autofocus, superior IBIS, improved dynamic range, good tilting viewfinder. No need for high burst rates or high level video capabilities.
People are going to HATE this answer, but I am certain the discussion is being had. One way to make these cameras viable in the market would be to sell them at a low price point but lock advanced features behind secondary paid licences. Auto Focus functions like phase detect and cluster, AI outo functions, higher buffer capacity, EVF HUD, all of these could be paid upgrades. Get the hardware into as many hands as possible and benefit from economy of scale while maintaining the value proposition of the high end cameras by making equivalent functions on the compact hardware cost closer to the flagship. Just dont mention the "s" word, we dont want to start a riot.
I carry the E-P7 with the kit lens. It's amazing, but the video features sure could be better. It's sad to know that it's capable and they just don't add all the things the hardware actually supports.
If we take the fact that the G92 and the S5 2X are the same body, can we expect that an S9 body with a micro for third sensor will be coming? Also perhaps GH7 larger body will be the same body as the next S1.
Hi Richard, I think it is pity the companies cannot live with stock components to keep the price lower. I understand size is not an easy issue. Maybe external solutions like external EVF or control/audio/lighting "interface-hub" is a possibility to reduce body size. Besides i would wish bigger screen. Maybe external field monitors/EVF can do some magic? Of course an upgraded GX8 with screen of GH7 would be marvellous too.
I think that would be a possible solution. However external/optional solution does also bring a lot of issues, like the R&D for external parts usually is more expensive as you need to design port/connectors..etc, also extra inventories which could end up in the shop/warehouse if no one wants to buy them. Panasonic stop making battery grips for the GH6/GH7 for this reason I think
I would love a G100 with the G9II sensor and the DR-Boost. It would be a perfect second/backup camera to use and stil get the same image quality of both cameras. Now i either need 2 x G9II or edit the non G9II camera to look the same as G9II.
![BOWKYLION - วิงวอน (ex-change) [Official MV]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/cLdnZWDaO-w/mqdefault.jpg)
Does what I said make any sense at all? 😅What price would you pay for a nice new compact micro four thirds camera? What are the specs you want for the next new compact micro four thirds from OM system or Panasonic?
To be fair, Panasonic have upgraded to 25 megapixels, but at the cost of lower dynamic range. The camera makers need money to make new produts, I think that is the biggest issue now, I do not think it is cheaper to make a MTF camera than it is to make a full frame camera. I would pay premium price for a premium Camera (I do not want cheap cameras !). Right now compact cameras are on a rise. The most perfect compact Camera, will be a Camera in style as the Contax T (first version) and/or Minox 35 ML, it should NOT have OVF, but an excellent EVF with high resolution and good magnification, I do NOT need a backside screen ! The Camera should be very easy to operate in full manual mode and the Lens should be an excellent high end 17mm Lens (35mm equivalent). The same will be for a mirrorless system MFT Camera, excellent EVF with high resolution and magnification and no backside screen, very easy to operate manually, remember a very good joystick !!! NO video functions or ability to hide ALL video functions and shut all video function OFF ! Also new high end compact MTF Lenses. I do not want speed, I want good build quality ! 99% of the time I do manual focus, so I do not need any fancy autofocus, but I do need an excellent EVF with high resolution and magnification. About size, there are NO excuses for Panasonic to make a new MTF camera that actually is a little bit larger and heavier than the full frame version ! All Sony Cameras are very compact for being full frame ! The Sony A7RV with a 61 megapixel sensor are SMALLER and more LIGHT WEIGHT than the Panasonic GH-7 MTF camera, that is too bad engineering of Panasonic !!! I do guess it is because Panasonic will not use more money on engineering for MTF cameras.
Makes total sense what you said and theorised here Richard. I have the G9ii and feel that with all the features and heat dissipation etc you could not make it much smaller so it made sense for Panasonic to just use the same chassis as the S5II. Despite this the G9II manages to be about 80g lighter than the S5II and with small MFT lenses is actually a very light weight camera system still. I never feel really that I would need a smaller camera although it would be fun of course, and I do hope against all odd it still might be possible to make one. The 25mp sensor in the G9II performs amazingly well in all areas. The image quality has taken a substantial leap since the previous generations.
I would pay 2000 dollars for an high end compact camera.
But only with a tilt and flip screen
@@Aleksilausti Sony full frame Cameras are smaller and more light weight than GH-7 !
Excellent video, Richard. Very reasonable perspective that I think we enthusiasts have to really try to understand. My maximum price would be US$1500, perhaps a little more if we got something GM5-sized or even G100/OM-5-sized. But at that price, it must have as many premium features as possible because you're also looking at some very compact and very capable APS-C and even full-frame cameras (X-T5, A7C series, etc). Personally, I am not at all interested in a "S9 with a M43 sensor". My wish list includes an EVF (even if not the best), IBIS, 4k60p video capability, the latest AF system and subject detection functionality, mechanical shutter (at least rear curtain, preferably full mechanical), hot shoe, mic input (via an adapter is okay), UHS-II SD card slot, and preferably a small, sculpted grip like the OM-5 or Panasonic's previous GX and LX series cameras, as well as weather-sealing and a high build quality. It's a lot to ask for, I know.
The reason why I can't take any of these arguments seriously is that the Panasonic GX85 already felt soooo close, back in 2016. Great stills quality, great 4K video quality, no overheating, amazing IBIS, attractive small size. It only needed PDAF, mic jack, USB-C charging, and a couple more fps on the burst rate, and such a camera would basically be competitive today. Back in the day, Olympus and Panasonic were pushing the boundaries of what was possible with cameras. I just have trouble believing that somehow, all progress ended in 2016.
Absolutely agree. The form factor and the size of the G85/G80 were unrivaled.
My main frustration with it was - next to poor AF - it’s color science. And not only in jpegs! Also in raw, the colors were not great.
Same as the E-P7... It's mostly firmware choices holding it back for its position. Clearly all the tech fits in it. They could also give it the same body with a more durable material at the same size. USB C port going to throw their whole electrical engineering space out of whack?... Battery going to drain too fast if I'm allowed to set a custom minimum shutter speed?... wut...
I have always said that the major advantage of MFT is not the smaller body, but rather the smaller lenses.
You're so right!
Both things can and should be possible as evidenced by GM1, GM5, GX9, etc. :-)
@@fredio54 given the size of my hands I’m actually not interested in small smaller bodies. A properly fitting body is just as ergonomically important as easy to handle lenses.
The first criterion to convince yourself to shoot m43 is to convince yourself the 12-40mm f/2.8 is a full frame 24-80mm f/2.8 equivalent.
@@shang-hsienyang1284 obviously it’s not 100% the same, but if you shoot in good light and don’t need super bokeh, it’s good enough and provides substantial size and weight savings.
Wise words Richard. Heat and power are really limiting factors. That said, I'd still like to see an S9 sized body for M43 with the G9 II sensor and a viewfinder. PS - still loving the shirt!
hey Gordon thank you! Yes I would also love to see a m43 S9 with EVF and if possible a mechanical shutter as well. But to be honest, I don't really find the lack of a mechanical shutter a real issue when shooting with S9, so it should be even less issue with the faster m43 sensor. The problem would be the price though. I have a feeling it will be easily around US$1500
PS. I'm also loving the shirt!
I honestly don't agree with quite that. I think there's a lot that could be done to modernize a more compact m43rds camera within the current heat and power limits as technology marches forward.
It would keep the system unique at what both Olympus and Panasonic said the unique selling proposition would be. Take that out and you end with a specialist nature niche that will continue to also erode, or a very specialist video/hybrid market that Panasonic has the door already of where to go next (FF).
Remember in the era of 43rds Panasonic said they were not leaving the format and where committed to it- until they left it.
A slimmer FF less heat/power FF will eventually happen, it's only a matter of time. in some ways for some things it already has happened. But sure, I still see advantages for video for Panasonic with the GH7.
I think we know the answer.
Look at the most iconic small cameras that still sell for a lot of money. Photo-centric, flat, no grip, no burst wonders, just a quality sensor, stylish controls and a decent AF. People who want that do not care for video specs or battery life or features you use for product photography and macro. Just good image quality and precision. And a high price tag. I am not a fan but I clearly see what they want. And am sure they can squeeze that in small package. One thing I share with Richard is that the sales are those who do not incite the production of such units. How’s health, Gordon? Cheers from the sunny, continental side if the North Sea.
Both Olympus and Panasonic made smaller cameras but no one bought them. I really do believe that if they were to do so again the people clamouring for them wouldn't buy them citing they were too expensive, too crippled in their features, etc etc. When the EP-5 came out no one bought it so it ended up being heavily discounted at a loss. The Pen F was introduced to address the criticisms and while it didn't tank as badly as the EP-5 it still wasn't a profitable camera. Panasonic made a premium compact in the form of the LX100 they ceased it because it didn't sell. Funnily enough Leica have persevered with it under their label and the latest model is sold out due to high demand.
exactly.
Cameras are purchased by the same people who elect our governments.
It’s the timing - what’s old is now new again. People are turning away from smartphones now. The market is ripe for the return of cameras even point and shoots.
I have and love the EP7, so they sold at least one
@@cristibaluta I bought the EP-5 it's a great little camera especially when teamed with the 17mm f2.8. But outside of Asia the Pen series doesn't sell well. It's a great shame. People are really strange - they only want something when they're told they can't have it.
S9 existing shows they can make a high-end m43 camera in a gx9 body.
Great explanation from an engineer’s point of view. The reality is that photographers do want a compact body with interchangeable lenses and are willing to sacrifice certain features to get it. What are they NOT willing to sacrifice? IBIS, RAW, great AF, a flip up/down rear LCD, EVF, and 24MP sensor. Will they be using that camera for wildlife? Probably not, which means users would be more willing to sacrifice pre-shot capture, and a large buffer for action. If camera makers open up a survey for all and not just “professionals” they would obtain a more accurate reading of what the majority of photographers really want. And I believe the cost ceiling would be around $1,200 USD.
For $1200 they can consider themselves lucky IF they get ibis and the 25MP sensor. If.
The "large buffer" is just a bga dram unit, averaging $2 (or less in bulk).
Burst rates? The video opengate fps limit is what they get on the photo side as well - same requirements for the image engine.
So in reality they're not willing to sacrifice anything.
What do you think are the main tasks of the processors? IBIS calculations, PDAF calculations and subject recognition calculations are the biggest tasks on the processors. I think you didn’t understand Richard video when he talked from an engineering standpoint. An example is that prior to Sony A7IV, the previous A7s AF suffered if you attach an external monitor to the cameras. This proves how heavy AF calculations are on the processors. That is why Richard said you need the same processor as the S5II, so power hungry processor that needs a big battery.
The problem in your thinking which is wrong is that removing video features will make the camera needs weaker processor.
What do you think are the main tasks of the processors? IBIS calculations, PDAF calculations and subject recognition calculations are the biggest tasks on the processors. I think you didn’t understand Richard video when he talked from an engineering standpoint. An example is that prior to Sony A7IV, the previous A7s AF suffered if you attach an external monitor to the cameras. This proves how heavy AF calculations are on the processors. That is why Richard said you need the same processor as the S5II, so power hungry processor that needs a big battery.
The problem in your thinking which is wrong is that removing video features will make the camera needs weaker processor.
I am a GX-7 owner that held out as long as I could. Just bought a Fujifilm XT-50. It is only slightly heavier than my GX-7 and is basically the same dimensions (thinner but slightly taller). Weight of XT-50 plus the sigma 2.8 18-50 is LESS than the GX7 + Pany 2.8 12-35. All of this with a larger sensor. So this CAN be done. If course Fuji faces the same issues that you bring up, XT-50 is almost as expensive at the XT-5 but with fewer features. But for me, I don't care about the extra features in the XT-5, and I am willing to pay a fair bit for the smaller size.
I'm still shooting a GX85 and just getting newer lenses. It still does everything I need it to do, and none of the compact mft cameras released since have represented a significant upgrade that justify the price. It'd be nice to get a newer BSI 16mp sensor and next gen IBIS but that's not gonna happen because marketing is all about bigger number better.
Just to put things into perspective: the Sony A6700 is a pretty compact camera with all the features of a modern camera (PDAF tracking AF with AI/machine learning-based subject recognition, IBIS, 10bit video codecs + log profiles, modern 26 MP sensor). It should be possible, especially for a manufacturer with so much electronics expertise and in-house technology as Panasonic, to produce an MFT camera with a similar form factor and similar features, and perhaps even better IBIS.
I think the real reason is that camera manufacturers at some point decided that compact cameras, even with MFT sensors, would no longer competitive against smartphones, and that the only way to persuade customers to still buy cameras was to max out their features, resulting in bigger bodies for higher prices.
Compared to the a6700, the A9ii has almost twice (=1.94x) the body volume and one third more weight...
You're absolutely right, and they use the same A6700 APS-C body for their full-frame A7C II series (basically the same photo and video quality features as the A7 IV) and the A7CR (same photo quality as the A7R V and almost the same video quality as the A7R V). So Sony shows that it is possible to build a compact camera even for a full format sensor.
@@wolfgangpetersun2730 i think that proves what Richard said, the body size is the same no matter you put a full frame, micro four thirds or APSC sensor. Sensor size is not affecting the body size much at all these days,
IBIS is way inferior to Panasonic m43 IBIS, it overheats in 4k60, 4k120 has a huge crop (hence way less data to process), the sony e mount is undersized for the sensor so you get classic -3EV in the corners, only 1 card slot, no full hdmi, way worse handling, small evf, etc, etc.
No.
@@haploguy If you need 4K60 and 4K120, dual card slots and full size HDMI, you're not looking for a small MFT camera, but for a camera in the class and with the size of the GH7. There are, however, other people, who do not need any of this and would prefer an MFT camera with a compact body... And this discussion here is actually about them.
@@haploguy but it does several things better than the Panasonic m43rds also.
Don’t forget the G100. It’s small for a dslr-shaped camera.
Thanks for your video! For your statistics, I'm swapping my MFT lenses such as the Panasonic Lumix 20mm f1.7 for the small Sony SEL 40mm f2.5 G, the Panasonic Leica DG Summilux 25mm f1.4 II ASPH for the small Sony SEL 50mm f2.5 G, etc. These full frame lenses are similarly priced. Since Sony is showing how small cameras can be built with the full frame a7c camera series, I'm no longer waiting for a compact Micro Four Thirds camera from Panasonic. Instead of a new Lumix MFT GX9, Panasonic is coming out with an incomplete FF Lumix S9, thereby ignoring its MFT customers. Now I'm forced to invest money in another system. The only answer for me as a consumer is no more Panasonic products!
Thanks for sharing your thoughts and experience :)
I think the issue is people are judging the performance, size and price of the system on a camera level and sensor size level. They don’t consider the size of the lens and the amount of different lenses you have to carry in ff to cover the same range as in mft. at a slight trade off in image quality, many mft lenses replace the need of 2 or 3 bodies in ff. Think of the 40-150f2.8, or the 12-100f4. Effectively in use case, you can’t cheaply replace those lenses with just one lens and one body on ff, you’d need a bunch of primes and a big bag to carry all that.
So a 40-150 f2.8 is equivalent to a 80--300 f5.6 and the 12-100 f4 is equivalent to a 24-200 f8. Tamron makes a 70-300 f4.5-6.3 and also a 28-200 f2.8-f5.6. Both Tamron lenses are significantly lighter and significantly less expensive than their MFT near equivalents. This is generally the case for 'equivalent' lenses and this no weight savings. In the final analysis, you can't get around the laws of optics and the smaller MFT sensor does allow to smaller lenses only at the cost of light gathering capability. ps - I am not bashing MFT versus FF ... there is no one size that fits all and many folk love MFT ... just clarifying the tradeoffs.
@@meta4101 A real equivalent would be more described by a theoretical 80mp FF camera that you can crop 200% to get a sharp 20mp image. In that camera, 12-100f4 for example would be even more versatile than in mft, but would probably be incredibly expensive, so much so they don’t make it. They make more than one lens that covers that range, that’s why I said you need to carry more than 1 body. The image of a 12-100f4 is not a 24-200f8. It’s a really sharp 12-100f4 cropped 200% into 20mp.
@@dasaen You obviously know the formula for equivalence. If you choose to not employ it it when comparing lenses on different sensor formats, that's a choice ..,,, by the way, even for "equivalent" Lenses FF has twice the resolution and superior dynamic range. Again, I am not bashing MFT ... it is a fun, lightweight format and definitely has its place ,,, but the law of optics are immutable.
@@meta4101 I choose not to employ for low light comparisons because it is not accurate, some people would think for example that the 12-100f4 on mft looks as dark as a 24-200f8. But it doesn’t, it looks as bright as a 24-200f4 but with an f8 depth of field and slightly less image detail, which can be a significant benefit in macro, wildlife and video (Your focus pulling can be less precise). I agree with your statement on the benefits of FF, I think with time cameras would have enough resolution that most people would just buy FF and crop.
@@dasaen Not just light gathering, but bokeh, resolution and dynamic range are all affected by sensor size. That said, small sensors can produce wonderful images in the right circumstances. I prefer my rx100 with a 1 inch sensor when i am trail running and need a truly pocketable camera. Likewise for daytime street photography, small bodies (i use aps-c) and diminutive lenses are preferable and a lot more fun. For more demanding projects, my full frame a7r5, as you point out, with its huge 61mp sensor gives me the most options for extreme cropping, low light performance and, particularly, bokeh.
Enjoy the journey ...
I'm still clinging to the idea of a G90 successor, but I know it would be somehow different in some of the minute things that make it my favourite camera.
I would love to see a GX9 II that would be a MFT spin on the S9. Basically taking the G9 II and putting it in a rangefinder style body but also having a mic jack for video. Don't need all of the top video features, 60FPS 4K would be fine, also with PDAF and IBIS.
But if they just make a few fast pancake primes for the S9, it'd probably just make me upgrade out of MFT.
As one of the old "guys" (LOL) who has been taking photos since 1978 and who is interested in the MFT format, I must say that the biggest draw back that I see in the quality of MFT (and incidentally in the APSC and full frame formats also) is the bit depth. There is a "gritty-ness" (sorry for the neologism) or choppy look to the colors in the MFT images. Color variations do not seem to transition smoothly in the 12 bit rendering. This is very easy to see if we make an extreme comparison between a 12 bit MFT image and Fuji’s “medium” format which is 16 bit. I’m guessing that the smoothness in the medium format images is not because of the pixel size but rather the bit depth. After all, the pixel size in the Fuji GFX 100S-II 101Mp is 3.78 micron versus 3.34 micron in the (Olympus) OM System OM-1-II. The “smoothness” in the color transitions of the 16 bit images are very noticeable. Thanks for your video!
There is a rather recent compact micro four third camera with up-to-date specs: Lumix G100D. Love it for every day use!
I agree, I have had mine for about 8 months and have only used my G9 once. Very underrated little camera, great IQ. With my Nissin i40 I can get up to 1/500th sync speed using HSS.
Good take. It's easy to forget about tradeoffs and costs. I have a GX85 which is already close to an ideal camera for me. I'd like a larger, higher quality viewfinder (my Nikon Z6 EVF is stunning comparatively) and USB-C charging. PDAF would be nice, but I use manual focus lenses 99% of the time anyway. With premium materials and light weight (I know, a contradictioin) I'd consider $1,500 new.
Heat and power with today's processors may be limiting factors when they're clocked at their peak, for maximum performance -- like they are in larger bodies. But a relatively small reduction in peak and idle frequencies would allow for lower voltage operation, and subsequently a significant reduction in power consumption and heat.
Yes, we WANT a new small camera M4/3 ! 🫠
"All I want is a small micro four thirds camera"
Rich, this really nails the question. Really appreciated input here, most ppl are still looking at this from a wish list perspective, but you describe the engineering and marketing reality of the situation. If ppl want a small, interchangeable lens M4/3 camera, they may as well bag the GM1, GM5, Pen F, GX9 etc. while they can be found in good nick on the used market.
I wish there was a m4/3 camera like the Ricoh GXR, where you have the mount/sensor as a separate module. Then you could re-use the sensor when upgrading to a newer body.
hello richard, thx for this excellent video. i have fallen in love once again with micro 4/3 cameras. the G9 II . the feature set is an outstanding upgrade ! and i don't have any complaints with the slight increase in size what so ever. the big bonus for micro 4/3 is the smaller, lighter lenses so overall the package is still very compact.
the gx9 is an excellent compact camera especially when paired with the lumix 15 mm f1.7 lens. this camera was a commercial failure because it was packaged with a lens, we couldn't purchase this as a camera only. this was a huge marketing blunder causing the discontinuation ( read death of) the excellent gx9 which i still charish. zen billings in canada
Thanks Zen! Glad to hear you are enjoying your G9II!
So miniaturization is something we accept as incurring cost in other markets like phones and laptops. It would require a mindset shift in the camera market but I don't think it would be difficult given how similar cameras are to computers and phones.
I agree with Wong's desire for a super premium compact camera, one that has a completely metal exterior, would be very successful.
Camera market is vastly smaller and shrinking, they cant justify the cost to miniaturize. That being said the S9 almost hit the mark, if only it had the option for a hotshoe evf and small lenses available at release.
@@marklion315 The market has already bottomed out, and it does not make sense that there wouldn't be a price point for a miniature camera when you have pricey cameras like the pixii, leica q and m series , Leica d-lux and fuji x100 series cameras shooting up in price and being sold out.
Hey @Carthodon i was going to bring up laptop in the video as well. But yes we don't seem to accept that smaller camera = give up some features even if the price is higher.
I don’t think you can make that comparison bc mostly everyone still needs a laptop so there’s more flexibility in the market. No one needs a camera anymore bc of smartphones. I think if your smartphone could do everything that the MacBook Air could then you’d still have people that prefer to use a laptop over a smartphone but most people buying laptops would be buying gaming laptops to play games or other high performance tasks that just won’t work on a smartphone. And laptops like the Asus G14 wouldn’t sell anymore bc the only people that but laptops are buying them for a significant performance upgrade over their phone. They’re not willing to compromise on performance for a relatively trivial 5lbs vs 4lbs laptop.
At this point i'm thinking to cnc machine my own bodies
As an everyday carry I'd be almost happy with an updated G85, mainly with a more capable battery so I can be out a whole day.
Very nice video Richard, very good explanation and well thought. I have the G9II and I was expecting the S9 to come with M4/3 but after I saw the specs I was little bit disappointed compare to the price, so I think you are tottaly right, If S9 would come with M4/3 I would still buy another G9II for 2nd camera than an S9 M4/3 with such a price.
thank you Hugo!
I agree, I think this happened to the Fuji XT50 and XT5 case regarding APS-C system...
Yes exactly!
If any outcome is a set of compromises, then they could "cripple" the LX100m2 by churning out a photo-centric camera with the same sensor, but with a fixed lens, tilting OLED screen, no EVF (they can sell it separately), a cleaner UI, the same battery, but with USB C charging, and built in film simulations. I'd buy that. Even without weather sealing and improved 4k video and mic jack.
Your analysis seems reasonable, thanks for that! But if I get this right, your premise is that people only say they want only a few new/better features in a compact body but if they get what they say they want, they would still opt for a full-featured but bigger camera. I don't know if that is really the case. It wasn't for me for sure. A couple of years ago I had to retire my old E-M1 and had to choose between the latest then E-M1 Mark III and the E-M5 Mark III which used already several years old technology. I was tempted to go for the newest toy but I couldn't get past the bigger size and weight that came with it. MFT's main appeal is the balance between size, weight and features. So I bought the E-M5 Mark III and I don't regret my choice. I wish there was something qualitatively new out there in a similar body but until it comes around, i will still use my old and somewhat stunted but otherwise perfectly adequate camera.
What a fantastic and competent presentation!
I agree with everything you said there.
I opted for an EM 10 mk4 with small kit lens as a walkaround camera.
Until I can afford Leica.
Thank you Rod!
I have the EM 10 mk3 and like it for the same reason
I’m surprised you didn’t point to the DLUX-8 from Leica as a great example of these consequences.
Essentially they’ve used the old LX100ii platform, but they’ve made those software, processor, USBC, viewfinder, screen upgrades (and re-skinned the body) - and they’re selling for a premium price.
It’s difficult for a lot of folk (me included) to see past that old sensor and lens… even with all the development costs of the enhanced components added.
Thanks, Richard! That was really enlightening. I have never seen it from that perspective but it makes total sense.
If you don't need an interchangeable lens system then a rebooted LX100 might work (with a prime rather than zoom lens). Certainly the D-LUX 8, while over-priced, seems to be pitching into that space. That said, it would need to compete well with the GRIII and X100 equivalents. Or a G100 but in a range-finder body? In the meantime, I'll have to stick with my G100, GX1, and E-PM1 setups. (I have searches set up for the GM1 and GF1 to alert me should one pop up in the NZ marketplace secondhand). Good video putting yourself in the manufacturer's shoes.
I'm actually kind of grateful for the way that this video killed my hope for a new mft camera. I need to just be happy with the kit I have. I love my g9ii, but I really want a lighter camera. I sold my gx85 cause I just didn't use it anymore. My g9ii (though heavier) is better ergonomically. the gx85 is lighter, but in the hand, honestly it isn't a make or break difference. Once lumix lab is up and running for the g9ii (possibly tomorrow!) there will be even more reasons to use the newer camera. I wish there was a smaller lighter body with newer tech, I often regret selling my gx85, but in reality i know that a way better shooting experience trumps the weight savings 232g.
Thank you for this clear and concise explanation. However, I can do just fine with the current technology.
If I want to work with advanced technology, I accept that I have to use a larger and heavier camera such as the Lumix G9 II. A compact camera has its advantages, especially for travel and street photography. For that, after the Lumix gx9, I now use the Olympus Pen F. I hope that I can continue to use it for a long time because there is still no equivalent replacement. This is also noticeable in the second-hand prices of both the GX9 and the Pen F. Due to the limitation of the Fuji X100 camera, no interchangeable lens, this is out of the question for me. This in addition to the purchase price, which in my opinion is too high.
Don’t want a better sensor or burst rate, or subject detection, just small, attractive rangefinder style with a modern evf and usb-c
make a 3d printed case and stick your iphone inside.
@@haploguy I said attractive.. and where’s the EVF?
We see it all the time on DPR Rich with wanting a smaller m4/3 body. I understand the constraints as well though as you pointed out. I use large tele lenses on m4/3 and to be honest, the size of the body makes little difference in handling. The lenses are where it counts. I would love to see smaller bodies and just hope m4/3 does get some new ones. Not crossing my fingers though.
Yes i think we are all really wanting a smaller m43 body with new features
G95 is a good camera size and features. It is also cheap. If the battery is large and have phase detect, sure I would buy one . And I am sure it will be popular in Lumix line.
I commented on Richards G95 vs G85 DFD test video last year. To my surprise the G95 crept in as a budget friendly hybrid sweet spot. If DFD and the 30 minute recording limit isn't a concern the G9 is also in there. For Olympus E-M1 II (PDAF beast) and E-M10 II (tilt LCD, not a hybrid though). Looks like they are our micro D800 or 5D II for years to come.
Many thanks. First time an Engineer providing key technical reasons what goes on while releasing a new camera. Your explanation makes a lot of sense. I know many people still want best Lumix camera of about 5-7;years old technolgy around 15-20 mp. No new useless fancy features. I respect your views very much. What will be your recommendation in Lumix line. Right now, I am using GF3.
I like the gx9, or the gx8 if you prefer a slightly bigger (but more solid build) quality.
I think it has way more to do with the consumer camera market being near non-existent in 2024. When M43’s cameras had their hay day 2009-2013, most people had a point and shoot camera for family photos. Smartphone cameras weren’t there yet. Anyone who came up against the low light limitations of point and shoots found their way to those great compact M43s cameras - like the Pen EPL series. Now even the family members of mine who used to carry a DSLR everywhere are just using their phones too. Panasonic has stretched the Micro 4/3 platform as a professional tool, and it benefits from this great library of lenses. There’s more money in that than any consumer compact camera.
It would not be technically hard at all to upgrade many of the 10-year old 16MP era M43 cameras (GX85, GM1, GM5, Pen F) to the current 5-year old 20mp sensor, just like the cameras that did get the upgrade (Em10, EM5, etc) without changing their dimensions. But they wouldn’t sell, for rhe same reason you can’t even buy a new Canon PowerShot anymore. There’s enough of a market to drive the price of these cameras up used, but once new supply is there I just can’t see it. Fujifilm got the hype machine trending enough to make it but this is such a niche market I don’t think there’s room for anyone else.
This was such a valuable perspective. Thanks for taking the time to lay it out.
hey Ali! Oh I love your videos!! Love how you talk and how you share your thoughts with us...etc in your videos.
@@TheRealRichardWong omgoodness I had no idea you watched the channel! I am so honored!
@@OneMonthTwoCameras The honor is mine! 💖
Wonderfully informative video! As for myself, I have reached the end of my gear acquisition with the Olympus E-M5 Mk III. I have many (too many) Olympus MFT cameras. I love them all! I would trade a few; for example, my E-PM2 should have replaced my E-PL1, but I still have them both. I have been a loyal fan of Olympus since the 1970s, and I'm not about to change now! I love other camera systems too, having recently become infatuated with, and acquiring, several Pentax Q series cameras. At this point in my life, I cannot imagine what new innovations will I come to regard as absolutely essential, but... who knows?
I would be very happy with a S9 but micro 4/3rds, mostly because the lenses are way more compact. In fact I emailed Panasonic and suggested they release one.
Probably because there are still quite a lot of older models in stock with retailers. If they release new models it competes with the cameras already "out in the wild". These things tend to be on RTV basis with the official retailers, meaning anything that doesn't sell is usually returned to the manufacturer so they have an incentive to sell out existing models before introducing competitors.
They should have carried on making the gx9. I think people would still be buying it. It's still a really good camera. Same goes for the gx80. Also being older technology it may have been possible to lower the price. There are a lot of people (me included) that cannot afford a super expensive camera.
@@philby1 I agree 👍
💯👍🏾 who can afford the newest cameras for the prices the are selling the S9 i can buy two EM 10s or a GX 80
Thank you for all of your videos. Very informative and thought provoking. What is that lovely lens you have on the S9 at 6:16?
Thank you, this is the lens: th-cam.com/video/EXKWEIdzOlE/w-d-xo.html
A MFT sized sensor camera with a fixed lens like Ricoh gr or zoom lens like Sony RX100 would be a dream secondary / travel camera for a lot of people
I have a Panasonic G3, GX9, and GH3, 4, 5, 6. All of them are a lot easier to carry around than a Canon F1n. Would rather see Panasonic develop a new version of the 20mm f1.7 with better auto focus.
Answer: outboard cooling unit, in form of grip. Attached, it unlocks heavier features and proc speeds. User-selectable performance.
I like the size of the G85. It just feels great in the hand and isn't too heavy, to small, or too big. Hopefully we can get a feature reach GH7 with half the weight!
Letˋs face it:
Sigma created the fp-l with a 61MP full frame sensor in a very small and robust body for a high price.
No IB-stabilization and very reduced functionality.
The result of the community was clear:
No success!
But I think that many people liked the design and the idea behind this construction.
There must be some major reasons why this camera had so many “flaws”.
And I’m pretty sure that Sigma knew all of these reasons but they still had the balls to built this camera because they knew that who ever in the market would try to build something like the fp-l would face the same limitations.
I think this is simply based on the points you mentioned in this video.
A high power camera in a small body is not possible in the moment.
Technology sets its limits.
Thank you very much for your great explanations, Richard.
It would be nice if Sigma gave us access to the gyro data so we could stabilize in post. I feel this could be possible with a firmware update.
One thing different is, Sigma's camera projects always appear to me like they are created as a "fun project" as it's really not their core business and they never really aim to sell millions of them. I have a feeling Sigma don't really rely on their cameras to make money as they sell tonnes of lenses for all the mounts anyway. All their cameras are like prototype/concept camera that somehow end up in the market.
Just a few random thoughts from an older photographer, and a recent M43 Lumix user. Here is what is on my list.
Image sharpness: initially I was fooled into thinking it’s from the lens or focusing, but as of late I want get better stabilization. I’d be looking to upgrade for better stabilization.
Multi axis stabilization perhaps 3axis in camera 2axis in lens. For tele and macro uses.
Tell Olympus and Lumix stop the “silly” stabilization game. What good is an a M43 lens mount where one can mount Olympus lens on a Lumix if there is no stabilization. Because Olympus uses IBIS and Lumix uses Optical. Develop the M43 concept further than just an equal lens mount
Another area that causes motion blur is shutter actuation. With a D200, battery grip with two batteries there is mass there to stabilize the body for shutter clicks. With a tiny camera it doesn’t have that mass. How about a front mounted button like a Miranda Sensorex, or even better voice commands to change parameters or shutter actuations or exposure lock Etc…
I’m always looking for better ISO/Noise performance
Something to solve the dust on sensor problem. It’s like performing open heart surgery to change a lens over a naked sensor.
Personally all your points and reasoning are correct, there is no fault... as an System Engineer with a MBA.. i affirm it.
But there is a very valid point here: Companies that not satisfy the prevailing market needs are destined to disappear... that is a rule yes or yes... miniaturization in affordable technology is growing but in contrast the irresponsible accelerated consumption RULES THE WORLD OF ECONOMY and companies try to achieve make money.. right? ..So... in the long term, the principles of logic in development going to be displaced.. another "yes or yes". Moore's law is already obsolete, right?.. for example; Nvidia graphics accelerator "Tesla cards" cost US$6000 just a few years ago ...today only cost US$200... better example, impossible.
Grettings from Mexico... you're one of the best Brainy 🧠 photographers on all TH-cam... 🙏🏻✌🏻
thank you! Yes it's a matter of whether companies managed to find ways to deliver what people want with all the challenges they have. Unfortunately a lot of time it's much harder to do than say
Panasonic made a brilliant move with the S9. This is an absolutely perfect camera I have been waiting for 10 years. I wouldn't have even touched it, if it were a micro four third camera. Now, with my fantastic S9 with a couple of gorgeous compact Sigma lenses, I am a new Panasonic / Sigma customer.
biggest advantage of MF3 Cams are pocket-able and takes really small space in the suitecase while traveling .
Great video, but I think it's missing the point. No one looking for a compact camera is looking for those things. 99% of consumers will use their phones or only record sub 20 second videos. EP-5 and such are massive examples of not understanding consumers. They were smaller, but lacked a viewfinder. The major thing that makes a camera FEEL like it's not a smartphone. Nowadays, people NEED cheap and WANT small. MFT used to have that in spades. 1.5k+ for MFT is wild.
I think Lumix keeps making compact M43 bodies with good video and no mic input and they does not understand why people don't buy them 😂
There’s no new small cameras right now to protect the X100 and Ricoh GR. Give it enough time and you’ll likely only see a modest refresh of the Pen F, with a price hike.
perfect and comprehensive video. Thank you. Please, Richard, tell Panasonic if it would be a good idea to make a real PHOTO camera. Wlth only basic video features. BUT with every possible serious photography ones. There is a beautiful and "alive" world out there who love the true photography and does not give a damn about video. Its the world that believes that photography is the real art of expression. The process, the interaction, the editing, the sense and the smell of the printed paper... Its the world who want to take that perfect rangefinder Leica camera with ONLY the 50mm lens attached for everything and for life! BUT, they cannot afford it!!! On the other hand, many, like me love Panasonic and re proud users of Lumix cameras. We know Panasonic is a video oriented company. In fact, they re the very best. But, as a pure photographer, i think that nonw can prevent me from dreaming... Richard, i appreciate...
I think with Panasonic's strong video focus means it's unlikely they will bring out a new camera that has only basic video features. In some way it doesn't make sense for them to do that as well as all the video features are already there developed and it cost them nothing to include them as they will be using the same processor/sensor anyway. But it would cost them money if they remove them as the sales number would probably be less.
Even more photo oriented brands like Nikon is making their cameras more and more video focused. Look at the Nikon Zf and Z6III, a lot of the design/features are focusing more for videographers than photographers. Fujifilm is kind of the same (but at least the XT5 is more photo focus than the XT4)
I don't disagree with you though, i would love to see some 100% (or 90%) photo focus camera from Panasonic
For such a thing to be possible they need
1. a modular board design that can scale based on features, ports, battery and cooling between both mounts (m43 and L mount)
2. a modular image engine design where features (AF capability, photo burst rates, video specs) can be physically removed from the board layout OR a way to turn them off completely in firmware so they don't use power - second option is more likely since you'd rather bulk order one part than 3 or 4 based on sku demand
The rest will literally be the same.
Both of these endeavors are expensive and I doubt any m43 vendor has the resources, plus it will take years to develop for uncertain ROI.
I mean the last small micro 4/3 camera was the OM System E-P7, but it's only available in Japan or the UK.
A new version of the Olympus PM1 or LUMIX GM1, 16 mega pixel sensor but optimised for low light sensitivity to compete against phone cameras at events and venues. No articulated screen as makes the camera too bulky. Make sure there is an extra physical dial control so the cameras have an advantage over a phone as per the EPL10. Built in IS, that can be optimised for shooting portrait video if the cameras is used rotated. Built in flash and hot shoe. Mic input for blogging or allow the hot shoe to take a mic accessory. Keep the price under that of a medium level phone so around €750.
The Canon R8 is $1300 and weighs 461 grams. M43 can’t compete on price anymore so they have two options:
1. the heavy, expensive ultra-pro route like the GH7
2. the expensive lifestyle camera that equals the Fujifilm X100 VI in perceived performance while beating it on style, weight and size.
1 is the safe play, 2 is a risk but it can bring much profit if done right - the lens needs to be special.
it has no ibis. good luck losing 5 stops of light to get your shot.
The s9 is the same. The s9 is the gx9 body. People would pay for the s9 body and m43 lenses.
I like my OM-1 and other MFT gear...to include an EXCELLENT lens library.
Go be happy with your R8
Great explanation! However, smartphones on the other side get new features as well, but the size stays the same. I guess the increase in size is driven by demand for larger cameras by DSLR shooters. A lot of people complain about small grips. But the points stated in the video still apply, especially the costs for developing smaller bodies and a shrinking market, that makes it economically infeasible to offer smaller bodies. One solution could be to reuse generic smartphone hardware within a compact camera. If AI features and hardware encoding would be done on the smartphone chips a lot of development costs for custom chips could be saved.
hi @phatoni, my understanding is that smartphone and camera requires very different kind of processor and operating system so unfortunately it's very hard for a camera to use the latest off the shelf mobile chipset.
Maybe that's also why some of the hybrid mobile/camera that was released in the past end up having two operating systems/processor. One for the phone features and one for the camera features
So why can’t omd sell the pen ep7 internationally?
I'm under the impression that people just want an updated rangefinder style M43 with internals of the G9II albeit with some video limitations. So basically the successor to the GX9.
If this thing ever does come out though, it needs to be a premium built product with things like brass knobs and top/bottom plate, no visible screws, drilled inked in lettering... or whatever that can give off that "legacy/craftsman's piece of art" aura. The price needs to exceed what makes logical sense but not too much where a bit of GAS can't fill that gap. Because in an age where APS-C and FF cameras and lenses are getting so small and cheap competing solely on the merits of spec is a fools game. Fuji cameras, especially the X100 series is basically that; a camera that can masquerade as a fashion item and a Leica stand in.
It might be weird to shell out so much for a M43 camera but with the new LUT format they are pushing and modern day specs, it should be more than enough for 99% of even the most dedicated street shooters for years to come, easily. The sex appeal should cover the rest.
The thing is though... Panasonic's 水道哲学 business philosophy directly goes against this. I'm not sure if it applies to their camera division but it's probably why they leave the premium items to Leica and why their cameras always feel a bit cheap compared to other brands, even on the high end.
Though it can be argued that the timing wasn't right, we as consumers had our chance with the GM1/5 and the GX9 and literally no one batted an eye. The GM5 and especially the GX9 puttered out of existence so fast, a lot of people didn't know they even existed. I can understand why Panasonic would be super reluctant to take a swing at this again.
I’m sure it’s coming, camera manufacturers have seen the want for compact street cameras, it just takes 3-5 years to create a new camera. I suspect that we will see a suddenly explosion of niche compacts from every major manufacturer to compete with the GRIII and X100.
I bought the gx800 in 2018 and I love it, but I would love to have an evf. The price at the time was 300 dollars and today I could pay 500-600 dollars
Excellent summary of reasons why the new small MFT camera hasn't appeared.
GF1 for me too, but then nothing until GH5 10 years later, but then a used GX9 shortly later, which for me is the GF1 modern version. A compact G9 mk 2 would be awesome though.
Hi Five for the GF1!!
@@TheRealRichardWong the body of mine was deformed from multiple severe drops. I took literally tens of thousands of photos as per the built in shutter stats. Can't recall the exact number. Have a record somewhere. I wish I had the leica 15 and oly 45 back then. The 14-140 mk1 was good, but nit in low light or indoors.
Very good video.
The biggest miss with OM Systems is not releasing a new Pen F with the popularity of similar cameras in the same segments. I think the main reason that OM System is dropping the ball on this is because they don't have the capacity/bandwidth to maintain more product lines than they currently do. They are a very, VERY SMALL company now - almost like an artisan workshop. So they have to move up the value chain and offer fewer, but more premium, higher priced products with a higher margin. There are two ways to achieve that: top of the line flagship products like the OM1 series. And re-released older models like the E-M1III with costs savings (cheaper body, cheaper parts) and no development costs which basically got rebranded as the OM5. Small, compact cameras do not fit that strategy, they're not high margin enough and OM System as that small player now cannot afford to play they low margin game.
It was interesting to find out your opinion, Richard !
In my opinion, there is no problem for Panasonic and OMS to build tiny cameras. The problem is that phones are much smaller and a better option for the people which want portability. The entry level cameras are in competition with the phones and all the producers knows that entry level cameras have no future. Cameras cannot win portability competition against phones. The users which are still buying cameras are enthuziastic users which demands performance : big buffer, fast frame rate, good battery, recoding movies without heating, big EVF....etc.
Great insight. What of using off the shelf 3 or 4nm components to offload much the heavy lifting? ARM SOCs for instance?
I don't think that'll work. My understanding is that the camera processor works very differently from the generic ARM chipset. So that's why camera companies always have to develop their own processor.
Wild idea, make a "compute unit" plug-in board like RPi using MII. And it can be plugged into the lens mount + sensor + IBIS combo. The compute unit should have custom hardware or FPGA for image processing. It can be reprogrammed or swapped for specific video or image processing features, and option to upgrade for higher frame rates or processing capabilities. Portrait shooters can get the slower ones, while sports shooters can get the faster ones. It can have a few form factors like PC motherboards' ITX, ATX etc for different cooling setups, and fits into corresponding size case.
I hope for something similar to appear but have no idea if it's realistic at all. There are two kickstarter ventures* using the MFT mount on a bring-your-own-smartphone-as-render-engine platform. Other mounts may be proprietarily locked down for third parties forever so speedboosters are still needed.
Conversely the OM-1 can power OM Workspace processing (aka USB RAW) through a USB-C cable that also supplies power. So you can do otherwise CPU/GPU intensive edits on basic PC/mac hardware, think of it as an external GPU (aka eGPU), they've been around since Thunderbolt 3.
*
Alice camera
SwitchLens
Hello, thanks for the recommendations. After checking, Alice is promising a lot, but ZV-E10 and SwitchLens are destroying its value proposition. SwitchLens, on the other hand, might have a good time with a small MF lens. But it needs work on connecting the lens and the delays after taking a shot. Maybe just add an NFC tag to connect the phone and launch the app, at the same time, wake the device. And the image preview experience can be improved by progressive load, compression or a faster connection.
When Olympus Air-01 came out, you could apply for some access for app developers. I don't know how strict it is, it looked optimistic, but it's over now. Toshiba FlashAir Wi-Fi SD card also had some developer access, but it's also discontinued. Those two products had so much potential to reduce the friction of sharing the images or doing some off-camera enhancements :(
..I recently purchased the OM5 ...and I love it/.. I am also a Sony user/.with the evolution of generative AI...I love upscaling my images .. with a couple of primes is a no brainer ...🎉
I guess the manufacturers are trying to add more and more features… so yeah the new cameras are bigger. I’m trying to decide on a MFT camera to shoot real estate - but finding one is pretty difficult. I want it to be at least 25mp, support 3 or 5 AE bracket but allowing me to vary the range (lumix don’t do this) and also allow delayed shooting on the bracket shot - pana does this but apparently OM don’t. It also needs a hot shoe mount for a flash trigger. Ideally good AF and 4K50p at 10 bit colour with 150mbits. If any of the current cameras did it even at the GH7 price I’d pay it.
You have oddly specific technical points in there. The Olympus 8-25 f4 would likely be a good fit for your requirements, and possibly the LUMIX G9 II or the older OM-1 (mark I) as a suitable body. Video would be better on the G9 II. Perhaps look at the specifications of these two.
Hand-held high resolution mode on the OM-1 will deliver 50 Mpixel. Why you’d actually need that, I don’t know.
@@boggisthecat cheers. Yeah I was reading about handheld but I read / watched issues with household lights especially fluros. And yeah, RE is a little different to birding etc that OM is renown for. I've already got the Laowa 7.5 f2, 8-18 Pana/ Leica and the Para 7-14 but yeah the Olympus ones do look like they are better glass.
@@southcoastpix9678
Lighting is a good point. Although I would think you’d only see issues with fast shutter speeds. (All lights pulse at mains frequency or higher. LED is the most abrupt transition - fully on to fully off at a high frequency.)
Video has always had to work around this issue.
Perhaps you could rent or borrow a G9 II and / or GH7 to try? Often a feature you may think is really important turns out to be unnecessary.
Long story short, with advancements to chip fabrication technology, larger image sensors are not that much more expensive than smaller ones any more. I stopped waiting for a PDAF GX camera and bought a A7C in 2020. On the other hand, I'm happy with my second-hand OM-1 for casual birding.
It all comes down to the difference between the pro and hobbyist. Pros want full features, and size is not the biggest concern. They also have more to spend on a cam, thus more profit margin. Hobbyists want small and reasonably priced. And most simply go with their phone. A small Lumix is thought of by most as a compact cam, and that market is dead.
Any enthusiast have enough money to buy Nikon Z9 or other expensive cameras. Many birders and wildlife photographers are not professional but hobbyist but have plenty of money to buy expensive camera and lenses.
@@angeloplayforone Yes, many have the money to buy it. However if you do a simple google search for small camera sales over the last decade, you will see those sales numbers are in sharp decline. People simply do not want them any longer, outside a very small niche here and there, like you mention. But that isn't nearly enough to keep production lines going. Literally BILLIONS of people feel their phone is good enough. I bought a G85 years ago (with the nice 12-60 included!) for $600. You know Lumix didn't make much on it. But they likely sold hundreds of thousands of them. That market isn't there now. I also bought a GH6, which they likely made a good chunk on, even if they didn't sell huge numbers it was enough to justify the GH7. Also keep in mind we aren't talking about those cute small cameras that shot film. Digital cameras have tons of tech that costs a lot of money to develop, license, build, etc. The overhead is insane compared to building film cameras.
@@angeloplayforone Let me also add a story: I was in B&H Photo some years back, chatting with one of the guys I've known for decades. He was telling me that most of the high-end camera sales are not to pro shooters. Most are to dentists from NJ who take photos of their families. Talk about niche! The point being, the photo market is quite complex. Until you see actual sales markets and numbers, all of this "should be" stuff is just guessing in the wind.
I think you hit all the nails on the head with this one! So nothing to add, but Lumix is really in a tough spot. They simply can't develop a small camera within the profit they expect from it, so they need to sacrifice so much on capability that the market size drops, or use leftover technology years later than the market wants. Personally I think external EVF is a great idea, keep that headline below $1200 with the 25mp sensor and let people decide if they care enough to add it back.
I (Canon shooter) think the Quaterframe is limited exactly by the sensor - or rather, by the diameter of the mount. Recent professional m43 are quite big cameras sporting almost comically small mount. Hence there is no way anybody can (if so desired) to keep using m43 and going say for fullframe. Basically Olympus at one time said "1/4 of a frame is enough for everybody" and designed themselves into a quite small corner. With EOS mount, one could either get big and heavy, or relatively small and light, although not as much as m43, but there's the choice while also not leaving the system. And there's only so much you can do with a small diameter mount when the sensors cannot really go any denser without being hideously diffraction limited and blowing up any optical weakness of the lens into big proportions.
We need new gx and lx cameras with Real tinme lut feature. S9 should have been a fixed lens camera to make sense. There is market for that now. What we need now is gx10 with gx80 size and controls but with mic jack. Live nd if possible like those on olympus cameras. DR boost. Compact. Stylish. Pop up flash. Good evf. And a new Lx100 with nd filter and leaf shutter. Super stylish and retro with manual controls. I wish if it can do infrared photography with switching the IR cut filter to the side. No permanent conversation needed. How cool that will be?? Real time luts on this package will be more fun and the community can create and share recipes like fuji. But as u said the price am willing to pay is max at 1200 USD😅 guess its going to be only in a wishlist.
Great explanation which especially in terms of prices is very close to the reality :)
Spot-on, Richard! Well done!
hey Hugh. thanks for watching! Yeah it will be interesting to see what happens next.
Sorry but it's not spot on. The main reason why there is stil no small m43 camera is that there is a huge competition coming from the smartphones, and the fact that for example Sony has already released such cameras (a6700, A7C II). Another reason that they do not want to canibalize their own big models that are obviously kinda expensive. Anyways I still hope there is one day any camera like Pen F or GX9. If it's not the case I will change the system. Cheers
The approach is of an expert. Richard is unique, I thoroughly enjoyed his reasoning here. But I still dare to oppose him. Why is Olympus/OM System able to maintain practically the same body since E-M1 mark II down the four generations of their flagship model, and still add that many incredible new features, most of them computational? Why is much much more capable G9 mark II exactly the same weight as his six years older brother G9? Why are most FF bodies capable of size reduction to equal or better the MFT when there's such a difference in sensor read-out, AF complexity and other stuff going on there?
Nice discussion you've unlocked here Richard, and we don't mind that Lumix thumbnail ad :))
One "hopeful" sign is that Panasonic seems to have preserved the tooling to re-issue the FZ80. In particular, the molds to create a plastic camera body can be extremely expensive to create from scratch, even with CAD and 3D printing. That Panasonic managed to substitute in a USB-C connector in the new FZ-80 sheds new light on OM System's badly gauged retention of the old USB connector in the OM-5. Perhaps OM didn't have the ability to change the physical layout of the body. I also wonder if OM System inherited the tooling for, say, the PEN-F. If not, starting from scratch on a new PEN-F would be enormously expensive for a company that shows no sign of being rich enough to do so. And as you say, it would be difficult to cram all the newest MFT tech into a body as compact as a PEN-F or GX-9. At very least an accommodation will need to be made for a larger battery. I'm hoping that a tech-aggressive company like DJI will take on the compact MFT challenge. DJI seems to be extraordinarily innovative AND responsive to user needs, as the Pocket 3 demonstrates. DJI is already a member of the MFT alliance.
DJI is also a member of the L-Mount Alliance and I would love to see what they could come up with in the mirrorless space. Pretty much everything they currently make is so impressive from a technical perspective, that I think they could really do some amazing things with stabilization, computational photography features, autofocus, UI and interface, app/mobile integration, etc.
I doubt it's mainly the technical reasons why we don't see small (and/or affordable) M43 cameras.
I think it's just easier to sell a limited amount of enthusiasts with a lot of money very expensive, maximum featured cameras and lenses with a big margin.
My guess is: There isn't really enough demand for a low margin, high volume approach in the camera sector anymore.
Even the few new point & shoots, speciality and retro cameras are exclusively aimed at high price, high margin, low volume nowadays.
That said, I would buy a decently priced small M43 to replace my 10 year old one, if it had some better features, even if compromising.
I just love the small form factor of body and lenses and I really don't need full frame or crop sensors (or 4K+ video) for anything. But that's just me I guess...
Agreed. The camera companies long ago decided not compete with smart phones and abandoned that market.
How about a gx8 mark ii? Seems like with the extra space with the grip could help with space for keeping cool, and the processor, and still gives photographers the EVF, and gives the videographers the Flippy screen and mic jac. They could redesign the grip a bit, as the original is kinda uncomfortable. The gf3, gf5, g3 style grip would be pretty cool!
The g3, which had a smaller grip than the g5, g6, g7, g9, is also a cool compact design, that still has an evf, and could probably house a bigger processor.
Oh Richard! You have destroyed my latest video 😂This is hilarious!!! 😂 Thank you for your thorough insight (and shattering my M43 dream)
LOL I've watched your video last night just before i sleep as well! I thought your was a reaction to mine :P
Hey we can still dream about our perfect camera and the camera god may deliver to us one day!
@@TheRealRichardWong Haha Maybe I will change the Title and thumbnail to a picture of you saying "Richard Wong destroyed my M43 Dream!" TH-cam love online BEEF!!! 😄
@@BenFox01 lol DO IT!!! (Palpatine voice)
@@TheRealRichardWong 😈
Panasonic know that lots of people have MFT lenses. If they can make a compact that can make use of all those lenses out there, there will be a market for that compact body.
I would love a new weather sealed GX8II rangefinder style body using the modern pdaf sensor in the G9II and GH7
I feel the way forward is to revert back to the old camcorder shape with interchangeable lenses. A GH7 in the shape of a small URSA Mini. 🤔
For a really premium small and light MFT (photo centric) cam I would nearly pay the same price as for the G9ii as I‘ll use it even more often and for me ergonomics, size, design is even more important than most of the tech features. But some core specs should be there: Highly improved mobil connectivity,
More than 20mpx, Hybrid autofocus, superior IBIS, improved dynamic range, good tilting viewfinder.
No need for high burst rates or high level video capabilities.
Great explanation Richard, thank you.
Glad you enjoyed it
People are going to HATE this answer, but I am certain the discussion is being had. One way to make these cameras viable in the market would be to sell them at a low price point but lock advanced features behind secondary paid licences. Auto Focus functions like phase detect and cluster, AI outo functions, higher buffer capacity, EVF HUD, all of these could be paid upgrades. Get the hardware into as many hands as possible and benefit from economy of scale while maintaining the value proposition of the high end cameras by making equivalent functions on the compact hardware cost closer to the flagship. Just dont mention the "s" word, we dont want to start a riot.
I carry the E-P7 with the kit lens. It's amazing, but the video features sure could be better. It's sad to know that it's capable and they just don't add all the things the hardware actually supports.
Actually an S9 sized M43 camera isn't a bad idea, consider all the smaller M43 lenses which L mount doesn't and/or couldn't offer.
Very good discussion. Thank you!
thanks for watching :)
Ahhh! You’re a software engineer! No wonder your commentary is always so smart 😊
Or you mean "boring" ? 🤣
If we take the fact that the G92 and the S5 2X are the same body, can we expect that an S9 body with a micro for third sensor will be coming? Also perhaps GH7 larger body will be the same body as the next S1.
Hi Richard,
I think it is pity the companies cannot live with stock components to keep the price lower. I understand size is not an easy issue. Maybe external solutions like external EVF or control/audio/lighting "interface-hub" is a possibility to reduce body size. Besides i would wish bigger screen. Maybe external field monitors/EVF can do some magic?
Of course an upgraded GX8 with screen of GH7 would be marvellous too.
I think that would be a possible solution. However external/optional solution does also bring a lot of issues, like the R&D for external parts usually is more expensive as you need to design port/connectors..etc, also extra inventories which could end up in the shop/warehouse if no one wants to buy them. Panasonic stop making battery grips for the GH6/GH7 for this reason I think
I would love a G100 with the G9II sensor and the DR-Boost. It would be a perfect second/backup camera to use and stil get the same image quality of both cameras. Now i either need 2 x G9II or edit the non G9II camera to look the same as G9II.