Recoil: Let's Talk About Feelings
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 28 ก.ย. 2024
- All handguns recoil -- it's a perfect demonstration of Newton's Third Law. But the way we experience that recoil -- the perceived or felt recoil -- often varies dramatically from one gun to the next. Even if we compare two guns of equal weight firing the same cartridge and theoretically transferring the same amount of energy to the shooter's hand via recoil, it's possible for the felt recoil to be vastly different. We analyzed some more high speed footage to help explain why.
More on blowback versus locked breech/recoil operated pistols: • Blowback Versus Recoil...
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yeah but you need to go to the other gun channels to get all the dog-whistle white-supremacist stuff
Chris is an excellent speaker, very succinct, efficient, and smooth.
One of my go-to’s 👍
Between this chan and gunjesus i learn sooo much i didnt know i needed to know.
Even Paul Harrell watches lucky gunner.
It's wild to believe these videos are made by an ammunition vendor. This is extremely premium content. Well done.
Lucky Gunner has consistently had some of the most thoughtful video and online articles. Even before Chris and their specific TH-cam channel, they had Andrew Tuohy (Vurwappen Blog) and others doing great writing and testing.
Thank you for consistently creating amazing and educational content!
Glad you like them!
It'd be interesting to see a comparison between the tilting barrel type locking systems and the rotating barrel or falling block style systems.
Love your science-based approach to gun shot data analysis. Just a great video packed with interesting insights!
Cool videos. The main difference between the locked system and the blowback is that the recoil impulse on the former is spread over two impulses. It unlocks when the barrel strikes the retention pin unlocking it which transfers some of the momentum to the shooter's grip with the remainder being delivered when the hits the slide stop. With a blowback all of the momentum is transferred with one bigger impulse at the end of the slide travel. Since the slide of the blowback has more momentum on the way back, it bounces faster and closes sooner. Note also that a locked pistol starts rising sooner because of that first barrel impulse. Also interesting in watching the blowback how the force from the recoil spring has negligible effect in inducing muzzle climb. One wonders if a stiffer spring would be better in terms of reducing felt recoil, though maybe that would negatively affect the reliability of the gun.
Great comment👍
Maybe, but I think Beretta went as light as they could on the spring to allow their intended target consumers - women and the recoil sensitive- to still be able to rack the slide.
I'm neither but I love that little gun.
The high-speed camera is a great tool. Watching the guns in recoil, the little quirk differences between guns is explained. Some guns feel better than others and the .380 is almost nobodies first choice. Would be fascinating to see video comparing the 9x17 (.380) versus a 9x18 Makarov in blow back pistols. Have heard more than one shooter say the Makarov is downright hard to shoot well, and I agree.
.380 is my first choice. Ball ammo penetrates adequately and is much easier to find than the Goldilocks 9mm defensive ammos that perform in a micro 9.
@@macriggland6526 .380 fmj Deveno overpenetrate. There are good .380 hp loads that expand and penetrate!
Modern 9x17 has the same power than 9x18.
@@Gieszkanne No they don’t. Over penetration is sort of a meme anyways. It makes headlines in low income areas inhabited by people with no self control and 50 round drums.
Civilized men don’t spray and pray.
@@Gieszkanne Power is not the issue. Bare minimum for “one shot power” is duty grade ammo in duty sized 9mm or greater. For everything else, landing two shots is recommended. Therefore, as long as it penetrates enough, it’s fair game to use it.
Great to see the P365 380 back on the channel for analysis. Would love to hear an updated review! With comparison to Ruger Security 380 would be even better.
Same design, probably run at about the same speed.
There was a surprising amount of information in this video! The visualization was top notch and the guy is an amazing presenter!
Great content!
I think I could watch slow motion videos of auto pistols in action till the cows come home. Being able to see how the mechanics work is mesmerizing to me. Hopefully, you can share different firearms and how they work in the future!
The only thing better than the content is the way their shipping/handling works when ordering products. Much better than the competition!
That was cool to watch all the slow motion clips. Nice job explaining recoil from different types of handguns 👍🏻👍🏻
This is the most mature, least tacticool gun channel on the interwebs.
The most perceptive and most articulate reviewer out there!😁
I'm lucky enough to have a personal range, where I shoot at least a couple hundred rounds a week. I have a lot of handguns, and a lot of friends that like to shoot them. One surprising observation that I've made is how differently individuals perceive recoil.
I have an SA-35 that I like to use with recoil-sensitive shooters, because it's big, heavy, has a locked breech and G10 grips, all of which work to mitigate recoil. My uncle, however, always complains about the "kick", and much prefers a S&W Model 64.
My favorite shooter is a Sig P365X. It's the most comfortable 9mm I've ever shot, and I can get rapid follow-up shots almost effortlessly. Literally no one agrees with me on this, and folks regularly complain about it's "snappiness".
I think a large portion of perceived recoil comes down to how individual surfaces contact individual hands, which, of course, is unmeasurable.
Great video, as always. Thanks!
327 Magnum is the Best Magnum. Everything from 22LR recoil up to 9mm +P Recoil
That was very easy to understand. Thank you!!
Really like your analytical approach to shooting.
Great video! Would love to see the PX4 Storm under this microscope
And a Grand Power P11 Mk 12 or K100!
Another excellent video
You're doing great work on the aspects of shooting.
What i learn are
1 Snappy is not bad thing if you can manage it it make following shoot quicker
2 sight shifting is a cost of soft recoil but with enough practice you can correct it quickly and shoot as good as snappy one
3 grip is important than the recoil force cuz you dont need to fight the kick but you need to recover and correct the sight on the next shot after the slide back
with larger caliber so much force kick the gun up the same will return and make the tip of the gun down by spring so just dont let grip loose it will return to target without needs to adjusting much
Impressive video here
Thanks for the info.
I did notice one factor of recoil is velocity. How much does a gun weigh, what cartridge, and with a semi-auto what is the slide velocity.
All blow back actions will have a more snappy recoil compared to lock breech weapons. Simply put, the blow back has a faster slide velocity than a lock breech weapon.
Revolvers are a straight up mass vs pressures and bullet weight problem.
Thanks
Jerry Miculek says he doesn't believe recoil exists, so it doesn't impact him.
Jerry doesn't compensate for recoil. Recoil compensates for Jerry.
@@LuckyGunner 🤣
I would love to see a similar comparison between the 9mm and a FN Five seveN 5,7mm! I have been a FN Hi-Power owner for decades and never really mastered its vicious kick! I also owned a STAR 9mm prior to that and it also had quite a kick, but not as vicious, possibly because it was somewhat heavier and bigger. The side-by-side 5,7 / 9mm comparison could answer many questions about why the Five seveN is so accurate and so easy to shoot and master.
Thanks for an interesting topic, and look forward to your reply, so I'll subscribe!
Grip and Grip strength are really the key. Rob leatham did a demonstration with 9mm and 45acp and proved he can shoot slow fire and rapid fire without changing the attitude of the gun, very minimal movement. Problem is, we all can't be him.
It was helpful. One more reason to hang onto my S&W .380 EZ...mild recoil.
Dang - great video! Love the high speed camera footage. Funny, I just purchased a Beretta 80X that's due for delivery in a few days. I'll be comparing it to my P365 380, Beretta 92X compact, and my Gen 4 Glock 19.
Performing this same analysis with a Chiappa Rhino should be able to provide some very interesting findings.
FEELINGS NOTHING MORE THAN FEELINGS, Trying to forget my feeling of recoil.....
Kudos for bringing some objectivity to a subjective topic. Applied physics and geometry can be difficult to understand in a compressed time period. The camera work made the difference.
Great video, Chris! Speaking of the 80X, I'd love to see this same type of format comparing it to a Beretta 84. Or a Beretta 84 vs. some of the Com bloc guns, like a Radom P-64 or an FEG PA-63 or a PM (to see in slow motion if that 1mm more case size 19x18 Makarov has really makes any difference in perceived or recorded recoil compared to .380 ACP).
I'm sure the 80X is identical to the 84
Your selection in ammo makes a difference in recoil as well. 115 gr bullet vs a 124 gr bullet vs 147 gr bullet is all going to feel different, even if on paper energy ft/lbs are the same. In my own opinion, I like shooting 147 gr out of my 9mm because the recoil impulse is just a tad slower than when I'm shooting 124 gr; even though in this particular case describing my ammo at home, the 147s have more energy ft/lbs than the 124s.
Nicely done.
In the very beginning it looked like the low bore axis soaked up the recoil/muzzle rise better than the polymer..... that's why I think the RIA 5.0 looks interesting besides the squared barrel of course.
I kind of regret getting a Ruger EC9s as my first firearm. It weighs 17oz
Was quite an experience going to the range for the first time with it
You guys should explain the phenomena behind trigger slap!
Thanks. This explains why I generally shoot compacts a little faster on my local pistol bay compared to full size pistols. I hate that extra nose wobble on the long slides, takes longer to get back on target accurately. But why then are fullsize preferred for competition shooting? And don't say capacity because that is what extended mags are for...
In my experience, it's two things: 1) increased sight radius if shooting irons, and 2) longer barrels allow for lower powder charges that will still cycle the gun, giving the competitor an advantage of getting back on target faster.
The muzzle bounce can be mitigated somewhat with technique. Competitors also do things like change the recoil spring weight or the mass of the guide rod to help with this. Even with the bounce, it's easier to maintain a consistent grip with a larger gun, and there's less muzzle rise. Maybe longer sight radius. That's just speculation -- the reasons high level competitors choose the guns they do is way out of my lane. That said, I know some extremely accomplished shooters who prefer a full size frame with a compact slide for that reason (ie, Glock 45 or even Glock 17 over Glock 34. Commander 1911 over full size, Beretta 92 Centurion over standard 92). In my experience, the vanilla, off-the-shelf (not set up for competition) full size 9mm 1911s have more dramatic muzzle bounce than a lot of other full size guns, which is why I chose to use it as an example.
Competition guns often have cutouts in the slide for faster recoil. The Glock 34 slide has these also so that the slide has the same weight as a G17 slide.
@@LuckyGunner Thank you *all* for the insight. Everything stated makes 100% sense and I had not previously considered these attributes. That is why I asked! So thank you all...
You remind me I need more ammo so to your site I go 😎
Excellent :)
Like the high speed footage of what your eye only barely perceives...
I loved carrying the LCP Max, because it was so light and tiny. But it was precisely because of those characteristics that made it hard to shoot comfortably or accurately. At least for me.
Yet, ironically, I can ring steel with boring regularity at 50yds with a 2" SP101 snubbie. Largely due to the weight of the gun, I assume.
Smaller guns, by nature, will always have a harder time trying to replicate the performance and capability of a larger, heavier, more stable platform.
Like Ian from FW says, all firearms are a compromise of something. Shoot something that fits your hand, and inspires confidence in the gun itself.
Getting welded to your gun is a two way street.
HKvp9 vs Glock 45 vs CZP09 and you will just laugh the difference is crazy...
I would have liked to see the LCP in slowmo vs the p365-380, to see the difference between the snappiest vs the softest 380's
Great vid!
Man, I'd love to support y'all when buying ammo, but -just like Manny Mansfield- you just refuse to do business with us disreputable folks from Massachusetts. Excellent video, and some illuminating footage analysis.
This one really got me in the fee-fees.
CB - For 9mm, try a CZ Shadow2 or a Laugo Arms Alien 9 - both very very controllable; both very 'soft' shooting.
The Shadow 2 makes an appearance in this video at 5:22. It is, indeed, a very soft shooting gun. Haven't had the chance to try the Luago Alien yet, but I would like to.
@@LuckyGunner My brother (the CZ owner) and I (the Alien owner) did a "Coke vs Pepsi" taste test / range day. We found that those 2 Czechoslovakian offerings are both (as the kids today would say) "cheat-codes". They are both amazingly easy to shoot, and they both have a very high degree of accuracy. Having said that, the CZ is ALOT cheaper than the Laugo. It's kinda' like the difference (in cost and 'status') between a Lamborghini and a Pagani - both are amazing / 1% vehicles - which one do you want to spend your $$$ on?
I'd love to see a perceived recoil comparison on "non pocket" .380s. Both Browning and Blowback. For locked breach their is the Ruger Security 380, Sig's365, SCCY CPX-3/4. For blowback, their is the Beretta 80X it's cousins the Tisas Fatih, Bersa Thunder+, and the Girsan MC14T... Which is the most controllable? Which is the easiest to keep on target?
He’s shouting from a warehouse.
I really enjoy your TH-cam channel, but you GOTTA do something about your shipping costs. $23 shipping for a t-shirt? Nope.
Need some robot hands for this, perhaps.
Bro, we don't give the robots guns.
@@LuckyGunner Fair enough.
I used to recoil from my ex-wife, because she always wanted to talk about feelings.
How about some more Manny videos please…
Would be cool to see some comparison between the Browning/1911 tilting barrel, Walther P38/Beretta 92 falling locking block, and Beretta PX4 rotating barrel systems!
Px4 for the win in recoil wars
For as much praise as it gets, I'm not impressed with the Beretta 92's locking system. It feels snappy to me. It doesn't help that I don't really like the grip.
That is a great idea. I regretted not filming the PX4 as soon as we wrapped up. I also have several other pistols already filmed that were not used in this video. I'm not sure if there's enough to discuss for a full video, so I might release them as Shorts
Shoot, throw a luger in the mix just for the toggle link and the fact I am curious. What else could we throw in to see a difference?
How about a CZ75 variant with its internal slide rails?
Btw, I'd like to praise the consistency of the shooting between firearms. Those comparative double taps between the Beretta 80X and the P365XL were so consistent that they had almost identical split times. It was truly a genuine and consistent comparison, and I'll say it, exceptionally beautiful cinematography.
Thanks!
Always a good day when a Lucky Gunner video drops
Thanks, Jeff!
Would love to see "snappy" calibers like 40sw, 357 sig and 10mm. Also, a video on how comps can effect recoil would be great.
It would be interesting to see a glock 20 vs a 1911 10mm. There is such a difference in weight
This was a great video. I've been shooting handguns for over 50 years and this explains recoil better than I've ever seen.
I agree
Awesome video. I was really hoping to see the PX4 storm's rotating barrel in the high speed footage/comparison, but amazing analysis nonetheless!!!
Very interesting information. Personally I am more concerned with blast than recoil though as arthritis increases that may change. 😊
Incredible insight here. Thanks!
Watching the movement in the flesh of the hands during a shot is all new for me.
Amazing presentation as always.
There’s another comparison I would like to see one day: rotating barrel vs browning action.
Here's yet another informative, interesting, and well produced video from Lucky Gunner! As the video wonderfully illustrates, there are reasons for different recoil impulses based on physics. However, I suspect that individual preferences are still fairly subjective. For example, I don't believe bore axis as a single determinant makes as big of a difference as some people imagine. Also, while impossible to quantify on high-speed cameras, sociological factors such as brand loyalty, cachet of ownership, historical reputation, and marketing may play a role in perceived shootability of a specific firearm. It's a fascinating subject and underscores the idea that firearms evoke unique characteristics of consumer behavior compared to other durable goods.
Yeah, bore axis is heavily over-rated as a factor in determining a gun's "shootability." It does help to explain the revolver-semi-auto recoil disparity, but from one auto to another, it's close to the bottom of the list of variables that matter.
Perfect title. I always recoil when someone wants to talk about feelings.
Interesting to see on slow motion. Still, I have some fixed barrel guns like my CZ-82 in 9mm Makarov that seems like a softer shooter than any of my locked breach 9mms or 380's. I think maybe it is the size of the grip that makes the difference in some cases.
Chris, I really would’ve loved to see this with a G19, G17, and G34. I’ve recently realized the 19 tracks noticeably better for me. The odd thing is the G34 seems to track better than the G17, but to a lesser extent.
I assume it’s most likely a balance issue with the G17 dip more in recoil than a G19.
Great video, love the high speed footage! For anyone interested, in a lot of these comparisons, the relevant physics concept is called impulse. For two guns imparting the same amount of energy on the hand gripping it, the gun that does it in a lower amount of time, i.e. faster, is said to have a lower impulse, and will be felt as snappier recoil.
And by the same relationship, the shorter time-in-recoil gun transfers less linear momentum. It can tend to respond quicker to recovery.
S&W 329PD I would describe as "offensive, hatred filled" recoil
Love seeing the nuances that you can only catch with the high speed camera. Positively fascinating!
Oh, right in the feels.
I want to see the px4 recoil impulse under high speed
We might release that as a Short sometime
Very interesting! I missed the rotationg barrel. Nowadays people want flat shooting pistols. But if the pistols shoots flatter the energy goes more stright in the hand. And there if the grip ergos dont suit your hand, this could get even very uncomfortable. I think the H&K P7 has the flattest bore axis and is the most flat shooting pistol but the grip ergos are bad for my hand. Even so its only 9mm it was the most unpleadand handgun I have ever shot. And I even expierenced 44 Mag and 50AE.
The quality of these videos is unmatched
Please Do an in-depth comparison of 5.7 vs 9mm and others. Short barrels and long barrels.
We are planning on it!
Great video, super informative!
I would love to see a review of the new S&W Equalizer as it seems to be the successor to the Shield EZ
An important difference missed here between the blowback operation and locked-block operation in terms of felt-recoil, muzzle-rise and impulse is the direction of force vectors. In the blowback design, the force vector remains equal and opposite of projectile launch until the very end of slide-travel, at which point the force is transferred to the frame, which held by a secure grip, results in the pronounced "snappy" recoil impulse because all that force acts at (for the sake of argument) "90 degrees" to your grip and at the last minute. Contrasted with the locked block design, not only is the slide slowed by the unlocking of the barrel (the "push" feeling) when the barrel first unlocks, it drops (for the sake of argument) "30 degrees," it then continues in rear/downward motion alongside the slide for a period of time till stopped by the locking block. This force, enacted earlier in the sequence than the blowback design, is delivering a recoil force vector at (for the sake of argument) "120 degrees" aka diagonally towards your wrist, more "inline" with your body structure. The remaining force (less now, because of EQUAL and opposite) is then delivered similar to the blowback at "90 degrees" (with say a 1in moment arm, or whatever bore over grip measurement of your gun) and results in less "snappy" muzzle flip. All that to say more concisely, a force vector is applied earlier in the sequence that is more inline with your grip causing less of a moment (rotational force) when the barrel stops. That results in less of an opposite projectile force vector, which results in less of a moment at slide-stop.
I know I'm splitting hairs here, but I think it's fun and educational and thus fits the purpose of your channel. Re-watching your comments on the topic, you pretty much covered it with your statement that the locked-block cycle "spreads the recoil over a period of time" rather than the "all at once" experience of the blowback design. However earlier in your description of the locked-block you described the slowing of the slide speed in the unlocking process resulting in "less force," which isn't quite true as Newton's "equal and opposite" law mandates that the recoil "force" experienced between the two pistols is the same (as long as it's the same ammo and same barrel length, which they are). It's instead that the recoil force is delivered incrementally to the shooter in approximately 3 semi-distinct points "spread out over a period of time:" 1) the "push" of the initially locked-breech, 2) the rear/rotational stop of the barrel by the locking block and 3) the "snap" of slide-stop. Same force, just delivered in smaller portions incrementally over time.
Awesome thought experiment, awesome video, ton of fun thinking about the subject! Cheers!
My goodness Chris, that is some of the best side-by-side shots I’ve seen! This video needs to be saved!
Best youtube channel, it's hard to wait for new video's to be released but the quality is always excellent.
Chris, as always, these videos are gold. Just fantastic all 'round data with awesome visuals. Outstanding.
My Bersa 380 Thunder Plus is the handgun that I can shoot fastest and still make good hits. Blowback gun with a big fat grippy grip and just a quick little snap of recoil.
Throw a 16 or 17 pound Walther PP spring in it. Whatever “snappiness” was there melts away
Up next: Beretta MPX with a rotating barrel.
Very interesting! Thanks for doing this video!
I have always appreciated the subject matter, content quality and of course the knowledgeable information on Chris's presentations. High quality slo-mo camera work is an added plus. Always look forward to your videos. Thanks.
Me Personally I Love The Recoil Of .357 Mag Loads. I Do Carry A Ruger GP100 4" Blued Finish..
That'll do.
What about a rotating barrel?
I love talking about my feelings with Lucky gunner
Algorithm buster
Great video, I was really hoping to see the PX4 out again and see how different it responded to recoil and muzzle flip with the rotating barrel. Maybe next time
Honestly this explained a ton to me, and why I like revolvers. I think maybe I’m just over correcting when I try to shoot some semi autos fast and I tend to hit lower on the target, where I can shoot revolvers more accurately relatively quickly, even though I’m well aware of the increased felt recoil and muzzle rise. Think I need to practice letting the slide returning and my grip do the work a bit more vs “pushing” like I instinctively do with a revolver to get faster followups
Chris is my favorite bearded GunTuber.
What do you feel when you shoot a bad guy? Recoil.
This channel is GOLD
Gold, Jerry! Gold!!
This video is the most interesting of all the TH-cam videos out there. Nobody but Lucky Gunner is making a video like this. Chris has made it so interesting with the slow mo video. That I'm starting to geek out. Now I'm totally into this. I own lock up and blow back and now I'm indurstanding the difference. Thanks Chris for being so different in a good way😊
Great video, and great channel
Seems like the original P365 3.1 barrel/slide with macro sized 17 round grip is the ultimate carry gun.
Excellent video! Did you see the cylinder of the LCR dancing around inside the frame?
Great information I would love to see how a rotating barrel would look like
SLOW
This video is Pewtubing PERFECTION. Thanks, Chris.
any comparison with the Ruger Security 380 Lite Rack & the M&P Shield EZ???