As a non-musician, I am completely impressed by your acumen and creative expression in the video format. Mixing in the Matrix cuts adds a catchy layer to your technical explanations. If you play music as well as you edit your videos, then you are truly a master craftsman. Thanks for the inspiration!
yea.. tried it couple times and like 1 or 2 first tries I crossed them like I usually do O.o... need to really think to do it otyher way and damn it was odd
IT was actually the other way around: Bomham couldn't play it when they were recording it because he got it wrong like all of us. Once live, you can hear recordings where he keeps quarters on the hi hat and everything thus flows smoothly.
@@giovannispinotti Exactly. Neil Peart would've made it clearer. (I love Bonzo... but it's true) The band is SO loose from the very first "bah-dah-dah..." and that's the core of the confusion.
This is 100% wrong. Close is not good enough. I can prove this is wrong. The count is on the down count as said in this video. BUT it is it is NOT 1E& ..3e& 1e& ...it is really drag triplets on 1 on 3. and 1 again. the rest he has is ok... A very much different feel that gives it a slower drag than 1E&.. it gives it a 3/4 feel on those strums.. Try it with the actual song you will see. NOW you know the REAL secret.. Incidentally , the DRUMMER is the one who made this band. His use of the triplets and drag time drove the whole band. .Im a drummer and I make it my business to never be wrong in time. .
A musician usually doesn't know how complex Zeppelin's music is until you start (to try) to play it. Listening is one thing, playing is a whole different ball game. Then you see how many "different" time signatures come up, how repetitions are usually odd (repeat one section 4 times, then 3, then 6...), how your lines change and the level of detail is surmounting. Those guys are not "usual" and all of that sums up to form their genius
Yes they did. Every. Single. Time. These types of things happen when songs are recorded piecemeal and then spliced together in production. Very common. But we knew that already. Didn't we?
no they didn't. what you think is wrong; it is exactly what is outlined in this video. your ears and brain are wronged. Stop giving out wrong ideas. Listen to the famous live version, and you will actually see that you are wrong. John Bonham's downbeat exactly corresponds to Jimmy Page's starting note of that notorious phrase. You think they get that phrase wrong because you think Bonham's hi-hat is actually upbeat. No. Those videos, Bonham's hi-hats are actually downbeat. You will have to listen to them carefully, and you will see that his bass drum and high-hat are played at the same time in a couple of bars before this notorious phrase, and then he only continues to play hi-hat. So conclusion, I think you got it all mixed up and thought it was wrongly played by Led Zeppelin, but actually they did it correctly, and your ears and brain have been fooled like other people.
The riff for Black Dog was written by John Paul Jones though, and the odd timing could not have been possible without Bonzo. These decisions were often a group effort, which makes the cohesion that much more impressive.
What about the weird 15/4-ish drum opening on Rock and Roll? Was it a mistake that got enshrined later on as deliberate? Or was Bonzo just too advanced to play it in straight 4/4?
You Too That drum intro isn’t a mistake. Think of the timing as the same as a guitar intro for a Chuck Berry song. Those first three sixteenth notes are pickups to the downbeat. Count it like that, and suddenly it’ll make sense when the band comes in.
i'm thinking that because reggae is so based upon a particular rhythm that "math"-ifying it would turn it into something else entirely that's not really reggae at all. of course, i have no idea and don't actually listen to reggae or know anything about it so don't listen to me!
I've found another way to solve this passage timing. This will work for most of us who've been coming in on the lead-in half beat before the end of the measure. Here's what you need to do: 1. Let that D ring out for a full FOUR BEATS. 2. When you reach the 'FIFTH down-beat', play the two semiquavers (Dsus2 + D) -- BUT when you do them, you MUST re-imagine them as being the *lead-in* notes to a new song starting on the next bar -- ie. with the Dsus4 being the new down-beat reference. That keeps everything in time. NB. From this point onwards simply FORGET about applying a 4:4, 3:4, 5:4 time signatures etc. -- until you get to the first bend of the famous solo when it is back in regular 4:4. Just count from one beat to the next (just as a metronome does). This stops your brain getting mixed-up by the constant change of down-beat versus up-beat emphasis during this strumming passage. Give it a try!
@@CMMCM Yep. But it starts without any context so it's impossible to know without already having heard the song and easy to get stuck in the pattern of hearing it as if it's starting on 1.
@@dinospumoni663 I hear a staccato 1/4 note pick up on 4. And if you're not sure, it's repeated 4 more times in a row. There is nothing on the and of 3.
@@TheBillysabu Nah, the very first note of the intro drum pattern is on the "and" after 3. I guess this is a good example of how the beat is confusing lol. it starts: and-4-and-1-and-2-and-3 And then repeats. If it helps, the accents of the pattern are on the "and" of 3 and the 1, during the first few bars until his accents change.
Ok, this also explains why the beginning of Joe Walsh's "Rocky Mountain Way" and Andrew Gold's "Lonely Boy" fucks with my head. Kinda love the unsettling effect.
And there you have it! Just goes to show that learning the drums/ rhythm / how to count, really does makes you a better musician! Excellent work my friend!
Every drummer knows this about "Stairway"; it's just that most guitarists are rhythmically illiterate (as most drummers are modally ignorant...but I'm tryin').
Because most guitarist are accustomed to "the first beat falls at the last strum of that first three strums of D" instead of "first beat falls on the first strum of that first three strums of D."
Also your best course of action is to just not play this song on stage. Don't go there. Don't play Stairway, don't play Freebird, and don't play Bohemian Rhapsody. Just leave those alone and play something else.
I just lined up the original recording with a beat by beat tempo map and, you're correct, it does work out if you keep strict 4/4. The band speeds up from 87 to 95 bpm throughout the section, which adds to the confusion. I find it impossible to keep the beat straight while listening to the syncopated bars on the C#11add9 chord, even with a loud click playing, but Zep had a knack for that sort of thing. When Bonzo starts playing the snare on the backbeat, towards the end, it confirms that he was counting 4/4 throughout.
That was excellent. I've always heard that little half-beat jog before the body of the riff but couldn't put my finger on why it sounded "miscounted" if you will. And I guess I never really bothered to write it out but now I know! Terrific explanation. The count in my head will now be synced up with what I'm hearing. 🎵🎶
I gotta say I was skeptical when I first watched this but after a little research I agree. I think there are a three details though to point out that explain why the transition is so subtly tricky. 1.) The tempo increases throughout the entire song, 2.) The timing isn't strict here, either they're playing loosely and behind the beat or they shifted the tempo right at the transition and 3.) The absence of drums blurs the beat grid. Great vid and explanation!
Hey, well done! I'm flattered you used my mixed-meter transcription :-) but that's still how I hear it. I have huge problems with unnecessarily complicated musical analysis (making the analysis more complex than the subject being analyzed), but I also have problems with oversimplifying (so the analysis doesn't articulate the sophistication of the music), such as hearing this passage strictly in 4/4. But I'm also coming to this music from a theory perspective. If thinking it in pure 4/4 makes it easier to perform, that's how it should be played! Again, very well done - I'll be watching more of your videos!
Wooohoo! I'm very relieved you didn't take it as an insult because that is exactly how I used to transcribe it for many years until I decided to look at it under the 4/4 lens. Your transcription was so nice and neat that I figured I'd just use it and credit you. Really this was just a fun exploration at the section, I honestly think both ways are completely legit since they both accurately reproduce the section. Also I thought it would be fun to make a video about :). Thanks for the comment!
Another great example is the beginning of The Kinks, You Really Got Me! you can clearly hear the transition from a downbeat to an upbeat. I always wondered how the song seemed to transform timing without transforming timing. Thanks for the education.
funnyguy2019 But that's a little bit different. Sex on Fire starts with a pickup bar, but not on the upbeat. Another way to think about it is that it starts on the 4th downbeat of the first bar.
Gijs van Dam The guitar riff of Sex On Fire starts on the upbeat, I think cause there's no drums initially people hear that first note as the 1 downbeat but it's the last eighth note of a silent bar.
I know what a pick up bar is, it's just that his talk about misleading rhythms reminded me of a video I saw abt two weeks ago: th-cam.com/video/slDKUaJFNfE/w-d-xo.html In hindsight, it wasn't a direct correlation, but still pretty cool ¯\_(ツ)_/ ¯
I played in a high school band (long ago) and I remember we had some music that we had to learn how to count using the 1 e + a ... rhythm. We mastered the music after a lot of practice. We played the song in a concert even! I don’t remember the name of the piece but hearing you talk about counting out “Stairway to Heaven” reminded me of this hard lesson. Thank you for bringing back a great memory!
Am I the only person who has always thought that the strums started on 1? I have never felt it as +a1. I don’t know I guess I naturally assume that there isn’t an anacrusis unless it’s made apparent. Plus, longer notes are naturally accented, so it always felt intuitive to feel it as 1e+. Not saying I’m better than anyone I just think it’s weird that everyone feels the long strum is on 1.
Gibson Devens I felt it that way, but then would get thrown off by the last 3 chords all the “and”. Those always sounded like downbeats to me without the context of a backbeat
I always heard it aswell as starting on "1". Had no trouble counting along in 4/4. But then again, I was trained in classical violin playing, sight reading, singing, etc. since age 4. Syncopation felt quite natural. But yes, it's still a tricky part to perform! 😉
JAKE, I cannot believe that you or anyone I have yet seen on TH-cam has mentioned what REALLY takes place on Led Zeppelin records!!! I was very fortunate to have Jimmy Page come out and see my band in person in London a few years ago and we had over two hours together talking about stuff... He told me that their records were played in sections and edited together later. I mentioned that I was teaching a young guy to play Stairway and Jim told me, in person, and I will never forget this, that Stairway was NEVER played the same way twice by the band. It was cobbled together from the best takes and thats what is now etched into history. The most obvious example, there are actually so many, is the intro to Rock n Roll, which legions of drummers/bands have failed to get right... the answer??? The drum intro was cut together during mixing. I sincerely hope this revelation hasn't upset or thrown a spanner in the works of those analysing Led Zep's music. How can you count an edit??? YOU CAN'T!! I assure you my story is genuine, I am happy to talk about it to anyone who cares to ask ;-) MUCH LOVE x
@Martin G nahh.. that's not true bro... Pagey had an interest in Crowley for a while, then he got bored with it, in general terms the band couldn't be arsed with that spiritual shit.. they just got stoned and shagged lots of women ... and.. who wouldn't in their position? ;-) x
I'm a drummer. I listened and relistened, analyzed, and reanalyzed that drum intro to Rock n Roll when I was a teenager / younger adult, and the best I could come up with was one measure of some odd time signature right before the rest of the band comes in. It sounds like exactly 5 accented eighth notes before the band comes in. Little did I know! I played it with a band when I was in high school, and I was playing it the way it's heard on the album. They had a hard time following it. The guitarist said why don't you just do 8 accented eighth notes before we come in? I was so used to the way it was on the album, I didn't want to. They just watched when I was about to hit the crash cymbal so they would know when to come in. Because they couldn't count it!
James Taylor good comment. In truth audiences dont give the slightest of f*cks whether the intro is right or not... it took me years to figure out that its always best to figure out simple version of a song that all band members can play than mess about wasting time with intricate intros etc. x
@@jamestaylor1149 Hi, James. In the intro of Rock 'n Roll all you have to do is hear the first 3 hits (the snare-hh-hh) as "and 4 and " (the 6th,7th,8th beat) of an 8/8. Then the actual 1 starts and everything locks in easily. Try it.
Vice Squad ... so at what age is it considered rape when musicians fuck young teens and girls not even teens? Is Jimmy Page a rapist? What about David Bowie? Hmmmm. Why do I know anything about the type of deviant sexual intercourse musicians have with minors? The world many never know how many licks it takes to get to the center of a cherries vagina. Would you like to talk about it?
That's cool, cause how you just explained the bridge is how I've always felt it, and I constantly worried that I was feeling it wrong. Thank you for confirming my original beliefs.
Hi Jake, I'm not sure that I agree completely with you on where the beat is in this section. But you have made me think a lot about this. I'll do my research and get back to you. :)
Man, thank you for giving me a good reason to have f'ed up that section for years in cover bands (drummer here). I finally figured it out a few years ago after hearing a live recording where Bonham marks time with his hi hat during that section, clearly defining the downbeat during the breaks. But your presentation here is really great, valuable info.
I'm very scared of the copyright bots. Since it's all original music I think at worst they'll do revenue splitting and not just take the whole video down. The only actual clip from the song happens during my solo at the intro and i HEAVILY filtered it. Let's hope for the best...
I am reasonably sure this comes under "fair use" laws- You are clearly using the song in a completely different context, for a different purpose, and in very limited amounts. Ask a copyright lawyer, but I think your case may well be water tight.
This video is awesome. Everything here is 100% correct and it’s a very cool analysis of a pretty often over looked facet of a popular, albeit overplayed, modern pop classic. What’s not awesome is the perception (in the comments) that “feeling something out” is necessarily a bad thing when it comes to music. If the part consistently hits with a band and a player doesn’t have a theoretical understanding of it, (perhaps you’re adding an eighth note that isn’t on the record and the group is accommodating) then that is okay. In a live performance context as long as there’s not a noticeable tear or the difference is harmful to the performers, then play it in whatever way accomplishes the a good take. TL;DR this playa isn’t tryna shit on you if you don’t syncopate this part. He’s just sayin “hey most people play it like this, but on the record it’s actually this. Innit that weird?”
Haha great videos man, you’re great at explaining how music works, your content is authentic and interesting and you’re also funny and seem like a genuine nice guy.
I’ve never played that song for someone and have them run out mid song going until you get that upbeat down cold I don’t wanna wind down any road with you!!
I'd do the meter change up at 4:06. It just makes so much more sense, despite the fact that all the beats technically fit into common time. Also, Zep did 9/8 with "The Crunge", so there is an stylistic precedent. Every time I hear this part it throws me because the feel changes dramatically at, "they were upbeats the whole time, hahah-" *Batman slap* "No, it's different time signatures." I do really like your take, though. Being able to count it this way will strengthen one's listening and playing skills.
Well now I feel special. I've always played this part of the song this way. I have the advantage of formal music training and playing in a group, which helps to break some bad "playing by feel" habits you get from playing alone all the time. I still can't play the solo tho
As a drummer who cut my teeth on Yes, Rush, Genesis, etc. I have always heard this as just a mix of odd-time figures - but your take on it makes total sense w/r/t where the downbeat actually is. The Police were masters of fooling you into downbeat mistakes. Re: Zep, a lot of people get the beginning of "Rock and Roll" wrong also (if you think about many of the old 50's rock and roll songs, it makes sense - e.g., Bill Haley, Elvis, Chuck Berry, Little Richard, et al). Nice job!
Answer (i think) - On the Led Zeppelin remastered (the one with the crop circles 3-4 discs) there's a disc that is primarily interviews. I recall hearing a story about Page talking w/ JPJ about speeding up the time during stairway...Jones didn't think it could be done and they tried it...could totally be wrong but I'm pretty sure i heard that.
To be honest it's always been the poorly executed solos that have grated on my ears. The song is so goddamned iconic even poor Jimmy sounded wrong playing it live. He shifted the position of the first down run and while still elegant, it was kind of jarring. For me, there are some things which are just etched in stone and are perfect and can never be replicated. Any band that undertakes this will inevitably be compared unfavorably. You *have* to make it your own, or suffer the indignation of failure. As a photographer, it would be like trying to recapture Marilyn Monroe's iconic flying dress shot. It's a moment etched in stone. No woman could evoke the same expression and beauty, have the dress fly in that perfect way, and be captured from that perfect angle and lighting the way she was at that moment. I mean... it's... *possible*... but damn. It's really asking for an implausible level of excellence. Anyway, just my $3.
@Starhippo Hippo If the timing on the first down run in these two versions sounds the same to you, I don't know what to tell you. th-cam.com/video/UqqKKa9AJK4/w-d-xo.html th-cam.com/video/D9ioyEvdggk/w-d-xo.html
@@darioinfini you're absolutely correct here. If someone says that these sound the same then they clearly don't understand syncopated rhythm. The first link sounds like he doesn't really hear the Drummer and he's going off of his own rhythm inside of his head which isn't always following the timing of the song that the Drummer is trying his best to stay in sync with. And the second link is obviously the studio version that has a professional engineer that's quanatized the instruments, within the rhythm of the song, within a mastered mix of the song in its entirety. The first link is hard for a Black man like myself to listen to comfortably; and I'm a musician. And have been since I was very young (I'm 53 now). Rhythm is something that has been programmed into my DNA. And I take no credit for it, it's a gift from GOD. But these are clearly different even though they are the same song. It's comparable to a vocalist being autotuned in the studio and then being expected to perform live without the autotuning. Your ears immediately pick up on it. Even if they can get pretty close to the recorded version. It's just not the same. Thanks for the links. You've effectively proved your case counselor. (Gavel slams!! Case dismissed😏)
@@redbrown7355 Haha thanks man. I learned to play that solo when I was 13 and I'm just slightly older than you. Maybe its just us old timers that can hear it LOL.
@@darioinfini Yeah brotha you may be right😂😂😂 However, I truly appreciated how you laid out your case because as I stated in my comments, I am an Ol' School Black man that didn't grow up listening to this genre of music necessarily. Even though I know the song somewhat ( I mean who doesn't right). But not well enough to debate it's content with someone that grew up listening to what we now call "Classic Rock". So bringing it like you did allowed me to get into the debate, sort of like a Judge listening to the evidence being presented in a court of law (I may have missed my calling, LOL!!) But It is absolutely undeniable evidence my friend!! In my opinion of course. Others may disagree but I don't see how.
Whole other can of worms , Page did not try to play it like the record , and is great at improvising The riff had stops in it and marched along Page was great in his day at using relative diminished with melodic minor , Dickey Betts also approached music this way The Rain Song is great Dancing days , the application of theory is obvious
In 4/4 you have to show beat 3 so you need to fix the second measure of your transcription the second quarter note should be 2 eighths. Also I had never heard this song before joining a wedding band so I just transcribed it and read it, I don’t know how this is hard for anybody, but thanks for teaching people who don’t know how to count it makes all of our lives easier!
Nice one! I seem to be playing it correctly, but now I understand what I do! Now, there is a song many ppl got confused about. If you could do your magic on Metallica's "Orion"... there is a segment (let's say a third one, after a long intro with opening riff, and high notes bass theme) at around 2:12 that is soooo tricky. If you take into the account that the same thing is played at the end, but without a "trick", there's not many guitarists who even notice the trap.
The intro to Eagles Take it Easy always screws up cover bands as well. That first strum is assumed to be the downbeat but it's actually the upbeat of 4. So that first strum is actually "AND 1 ,2 ,3, 4 AND 2, 2, 3 ,4 "
For some reasons, I find the Jake Drummer sections absolutely hilarous. The look with the sunglasses, the way he says the "1, 2, 3, 4" and the weird transition when he just whoop away shrinking of the screen, it made me laugh :D
hahahaha my band had a big fight of this.. i tried telling them about to count the start as an upbeat but... just like you said its kindda awkward to do so.. finally someone can back me up with a proof that i analyze the song correctly
That's really helpful, thanks! I was just trying to learn this song and when I got a little confused here I remembered this Video was still in my watch later list. But seriously, who else just tried crossing their arms in the wrong direction?;)
I think the best part of lessons like this, to borrow your Matrix analogy, is to learn to 'free your mind'. Maybe this will inspire some creative thinking to write the next legendary song. Thanks from a fellow music nerd. I'm an intermediate level player at best, but I actually really enjoy learning theory. But then again, I read books on quantum theory for fun.......so go figure.
All I can say is "Do Phil Ehart" next. There is so much he did that is so interesting, and no one really can play Kansas without full understanding of the most underrated drummer in rock music.
![Rhythmic Riddle - Writing with Unwritable Rhythms [Theory/Songwriting]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/uilA1uEERO8/mqdefault.jpg)
![Rhythmic Riddle - Writing with Unwritable Rhythms [Theory/Songwriting]](/img/tr.png)
![The Chord That Should Not Be - 7#9 aka "Jimi Hendrix Chord" [MUSIC THEORY - MIXED THIRDS]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/aT0HloEyHvg/mqdefault.jpg)
Jimmy Page:
"I pulled a sneaky on ya"
Since I Been Loving You: "I pulled a squeaky on ya"
Bob Ross’s son.
As a non-musician, I am completely impressed by your acumen and creative expression in the video format. Mixing in the Matrix cuts adds a catchy layer to your technical explanations. If you play music as well as you edit your videos, then you are truly a master craftsman. Thanks for the inspiration!
I think the most surprising fact I take from this is how weird it feels crossing my arms the other way.
Lol. Me too!! It funny the stuff we do but never really think about.
yea.. tried it couple times and like 1 or 2 first tries I crossed them like I usually do O.o... need to really think to do it otyher way and damn it was odd
I can do it both ways without any Hinderence, of course now I'm confused which one is my usual way of crossing them
OMG, that's funny. I actually tried it. Took me a second!
@@batmanthemightiestavenger9129 same for me
Even if Jimmy Page didn't realize this, John Bonham knew what was going on😂
Aye'.. they both knew...believe that!!!
Jimmy was the architect
IT was actually the other way around: Bomham couldn't play it when they were recording it because he got it wrong like all of us. Once live, you can hear recordings where he keeps quarters on the hi hat and everything thus flows smoothly.
@@giovannispinotti Exactly. Neil Peart would've made it clearer. (I love Bonzo... but it's true) The band is SO loose from the very first "bah-dah-dah..." and that's the core of the confusion.
Page was a session musician before the Yardbyrds
Yep! This is so true. And when this song is covered, the drummer is usually the one who gets blamed for not keeping 'proper' time!
This is 100% wrong. Close is not good enough. I can prove this is wrong. The count is on the down count as said in this video. BUT it is it is NOT 1E& ..3e& 1e& ...it is really drag triplets on 1 on 3. and 1 again. the rest he has is ok... A very much different feel that gives it a slower drag than 1E&.. it gives it a 3/4 feel on those strums.. Try it with the actual song you will see. NOW you know the REAL secret.. Incidentally , the DRUMMER is the one who made this band. His use of the triplets and drag time drove the whole band. .Im a drummer and I make it my business to never be wrong in time. .
@Martin G Screw that, I blame the guitar player.
I'm with Nick Mason on that score. He blames the bassist.
Also man your editing is improving a lot!
ay
One da yoYO neayt
adobe
Say something else bro
“Kind of like crossing your arms in the wrong direction”
*immediately tries it*
*feels violated*
I have never crossed my hands before.
I always thought it was a gesture of impatience and boredom.
A musician usually doesn't know how complex Zeppelin's music is until you start (to try) to play it. Listening is one thing, playing is a whole different ball game. Then you see how many "different" time signatures come up, how repetitions are usually odd (repeat one section 4 times, then 3, then 6...), how your lines change and the level of detail is surmounting. Those guys are not "usual" and all of that sums up to form their genius
Well said. I felt the same way. Much of their music is much more difficult than it sounds. Like you said, it's their genius!
Same is true for the Beatles.
Totally agree! Their later stuff was remarkable and NOT easy!
Quincy Jones' opinion on The Beatles is my favorite!
plus lsd
I struggle with tricky rhythms occasionally but this is one that I’ve always been able to feel correctly. I had no idea people struggled with it.
Very well explained! Both Page and Bonzo were masters of time and rhythm tricks. They knew exactly what they were doing.
You can give the band credit but even they counted this part wrong live.
Yes they did. Every. Single. Time.
These types of things happen when songs are recorded piecemeal and then spliced together in production. Very common.
But we knew that already. Didn't we?
He held the bong RIP too long and lost count when he started cough'n!
@Phil Weatherley Ann has always done such an amazing job on the zepplin covers.
Interesting. I have to check it out
no they didn't.
what you think is wrong; it is exactly what is outlined in this video. your ears and brain are wronged.
Stop giving out wrong ideas.
Listen to the famous live version, and you will actually see that you are wrong. John Bonham's downbeat exactly corresponds to Jimmy Page's starting note of that notorious phrase.
You think they get that phrase wrong because you think Bonham's hi-hat is actually upbeat. No. Those videos, Bonham's hi-hats are actually downbeat. You will have to listen to them carefully, and you will see that his bass drum and high-hat are played at the same time in a couple of bars before this notorious phrase, and then he only continues to play hi-hat.
So conclusion, I think you got it all mixed up and thought it was wrongly played by Led Zeppelin, but actually they did it correctly, and your ears and brain have been fooled like other people.
"I've spent 20 years around guitar players."...and he looks 20 yo.
Lol..that's what i thought.
If his father or mother was a guitarist ?
Yes
Some of us are blessed with good looks.
mercster rather!
That's brilliant. Deliberate by Page. He does that in Black Dog too. The opening riff starts on the upbeat.
The riff for Black Dog was written by John Paul Jones though, and the odd timing could not have been possible without Bonzo. These decisions were often a group effort, which makes the cohesion that much more impressive.
Here comes the John Paul Jones riff comments
What about the weird 15/4-ish drum opening on Rock and Roll? Was it a mistake that got enshrined later on as deliberate? Or was Bonzo just too advanced to play it in straight 4/4?
@@youtoo2233 JPJ is a goddamn genius. You can fuck right off.
You Too That drum intro isn’t a mistake. Think of the timing as the same as a guitar intro for a Chuck Berry song. Those first three sixteenth notes are pickups to the downbeat. Count it like that, and suddenly it’ll make sense when the band comes in.
Great video. And it makes me wonder. Does Math Reggae exist?
follow your dreams
Sig ragga (1st record mostly)
You forgot "Oooooooooooooo"
Math Reggae - thank God, Jah or whoever... does simply not exist. It`s a scientific fact we should all embrace.
i'm thinking that because reggae is so based upon a particular rhythm that "math"-ifying it would turn it into something else entirely that's not really reggae at all. of course, i have no idea and don't actually listen to reggae or know anything about it so don't listen to me!
I've found another way to solve this passage timing.
This will work for most of us who've been coming in on the lead-in half beat before the end of the measure.
Here's what you need to do:
1. Let that D ring out for a full FOUR BEATS.
2. When you reach the 'FIFTH down-beat', play the two semiquavers (Dsus2 + D) -- BUT when you do them, you MUST re-imagine them as being the *lead-in* notes to a new song starting on the next bar -- ie. with the Dsus4 being the new down-beat reference. That keeps everything in time.
NB. From this point onwards simply FORGET about applying a 4:4, 3:4, 5:4 time signatures etc. -- until you get to the first bend of the famous solo when it is back in regular 4:4. Just count from one beat to the next (just as a metronome does). This stops your brain getting mixed-up by the constant change of down-beat versus up-beat emphasis during this strumming passage.
Give it a try!
The intro to "Rock and Roll" by the same band produces a similar effect of not knowing where the 1 is.
it starts on the and of 3.
@@CMMCM Yep. But it starts without any context so it's impossible to know without already having heard the song and easy to get stuck in the pattern of hearing it as if it's starting on 1.
@@dinospumoni663 I hear a staccato 1/4 note pick up on 4. And if you're not sure, it's repeated 4 more times in a row. There is nothing on the and of 3.
But nobody will give a shit if you want to play it on the and of 3
@@TheBillysabu Nah, the very first note of the intro drum pattern is on the "and" after 3. I guess this is a good example of how the beat is confusing lol.
it starts: and-4-and-1-and-2-and-3
And then repeats.
If it helps, the accents of the pattern are on the "and" of 3 and the 1, during the first few bars until his accents change.
Great video, as always. But I'm really loving your intros, always get a good laugh from them.
I feel there's a time and a place for them.... this qualified!
Petty officer of men masturbating
Petty officer
Petty officer
@@SignalsMusicStudio the first time
“And if you listen very hard, the truth will come to you at last.”
It was there all along!!! It's so clear now
I thought it was tune?
Ok, this also explains why the beginning of Joe Walsh's "Rocky Mountain Way" and Andrew Gold's "Lonely Boy" fucks with my head. Kinda love the unsettling effect.
5:58 I like how you started the guitar solo with your voice, "Bwaooooow." and might I add
doodle doodle doodle doodle doodle doo!
I just taught this one on the ukulele on my channel, this part took me forever to work out! Hahaha.
Subbed!
I knew it wasn't just me that was confused by it! Great channel btw, I'm going to send all my uke-playing students your way
@Martin G Literally thousands of people.
you sir, are one of the best - if not the absolute best music teacher on youtube - hands down
And there you have it! Just goes to show that learning the drums/ rhythm / how to count, really does makes you a better musician!
Excellent work my friend!
Every drummer knows this about "Stairway"; it's just that most guitarists are rhythmically illiterate (as most drummers are modally ignorant...but I'm tryin').
J Lopez This...
Most amateur guitarists of my generation think "mode" means the pie comes with ice cream.
(The younger ones are probably better educated.)
Because most guitarist are accustomed to "the first beat falls at the last strum of that first three strums of D" instead of "first beat falls on the first strum of that first three strums of D."
I listened again and again and get use to it. When I play with drum beat the damn guitar don't synchronized with the drum.
I dig that red pill intro
It's great to find guitar channels who think off the scale
Wink
Also your best course of action is to just not play this song on stage. Don't go there. Don't play Stairway, don't play Freebird, and don't play Bohemian Rhapsody. Just leave those alone and play something else.
Like...your own shit.
All the same, it's good for a disciplined musician to understand.
Don't play Sweet Child either for that matter!
Or Hendrix All along the watchtower
I don't think bohemian belongs with classics like stairway and freebird.
I just lined up the original recording with a beat by beat tempo map and, you're correct, it does work out if you keep strict 4/4. The band speeds up from 87 to 95 bpm throughout the section, which adds to the confusion. I find it impossible to keep the beat straight while listening to the syncopated bars on the C#11add9 chord, even with a loud click playing, but Zep had a knack for that sort of thing. When Bonzo starts playing the snare on the backbeat, towards the end, it confirms that he was counting 4/4 throughout.
That was excellent. I've always heard that little half-beat jog before the body of the riff but couldn't put my finger on why it sounded "miscounted" if you will. And I guess I never really bothered to write it out but now I know! Terrific explanation. The count in my head will now be synced up with what I'm hearing. 🎵🎶
Good times odd times you know I'll have my share
Thanks so much for including a transcription of that crazy part. Really helped!
I gotta say I was skeptical when I first watched this but after a little research I agree. I think there are a three details though to point out that explain why the transition is so subtly tricky. 1.) The tempo increases throughout the entire song, 2.) The timing isn't strict here, either they're playing loosely and behind the beat or they shifted the tempo right at the transition and 3.) The absence of drums blurs the beat grid. Great vid and explanation!
Hey, well done! I'm flattered you used my mixed-meter transcription :-) but that's still how I hear it. I have huge problems with unnecessarily complicated musical analysis (making the analysis more complex than the subject being analyzed), but I also have problems with oversimplifying (so the analysis doesn't articulate the sophistication of the music), such as hearing this passage strictly in 4/4. But I'm also coming to this music from a theory perspective. If thinking it in pure 4/4 makes it easier to perform, that's how it should be played! Again, very well done - I'll be watching more of your videos!
Wooohoo! I'm very relieved you didn't take it as an insult because that is exactly how I used to transcribe it for many years until I decided to look at it under the 4/4 lens. Your transcription was so nice and neat that I figured I'd just use it and credit you. Really this was just a fun exploration at the section, I honestly think both ways are completely legit since they both accurately reproduce the section. Also I thought it would be fun to make a video about :). Thanks for the comment!
Another great example is the beginning of The Kinks, You Really Got Me! you can clearly hear the transition from a downbeat to an upbeat. I always wondered how the song seemed to transform timing without transforming timing. Thanks for the education.
Todd Haugen Highway to Hell is another good example.
The beginning of Cliffs of Dover when the main riff kicks in still messes with my head, no matter how many times I listen to it.
This reminds of that extra beat at the beginning of "Sex on Fire" that a lot of people miss, causing the whole song to be off beat
funnyguy2019 But that's a little bit different. Sex on Fire starts with a pickup bar, but not on the upbeat. Another way to think about it is that it starts on the 4th downbeat of the first bar.
Dude u ever herd of pickup bars?
Gijs van Dam
The guitar riff of Sex On Fire starts on the upbeat, I think cause there's no drums initially people hear that first note as the 1 downbeat but it's the last eighth note of a silent bar.
I know what a pick up bar is, it's just that his talk about misleading rhythms reminded me of a video I saw abt two weeks ago:
th-cam.com/video/slDKUaJFNfE/w-d-xo.html
In hindsight, it wasn't a direct correlation, but still pretty cool ¯\_(ツ)_/ ¯
Yes! Or Mighty Mighty Bosstones’ “The impression that I get.”
5:57: "bwaaaaww"
It's trickier than that! If you align this section with the click in your DAW, you might be surprised even more!))
I came here for the knowledge, I stayed for the skits. Honestly, fantastic video. #MindBlown
I played in a high school band (long ago) and I remember we had some music that we had to learn how to count using the 1 e + a ... rhythm. We mastered the music after a lot of practice. We played the song in a concert even! I don’t remember the name of the piece but hearing you talk about counting out “Stairway to Heaven” reminded me of this hard lesson. Thank you for bringing back a great memory!
Am I the only person who has always thought that the strums started on 1? I have never felt it as +a1. I don’t know I guess I naturally assume that there isn’t an anacrusis unless it’s made apparent. Plus, longer notes are naturally accented, so it always felt intuitive to feel it as 1e+. Not saying I’m better than anyone I just think it’s weird that everyone feels the long strum is on 1.
Gibson Devens I felt it that way, but then would get thrown off by the last 3 chords all the “and”. Those always sounded like downbeats to me without the context of a backbeat
I always heard it aswell as starting on "1". Had no trouble counting along in 4/4. But then again, I was trained in classical violin playing, sight reading, singing, etc. since age 4. Syncopation felt quite natural. But yes, it's still a tricky part to perform! 😉
I agree; I also played in wind ensemble growing up, I bet having that training helps people hear it better.
Not sure why you count, just fucking play it
You're an old soul Bro. Thank you
JAKE, I cannot believe that you or anyone I have yet seen on TH-cam has mentioned what REALLY takes place on Led Zeppelin records!!! I was very fortunate to have Jimmy Page come out and see my band in person in London a few years ago and we had over two hours together talking about stuff... He told me that their records were played in sections and edited together later. I mentioned that I was teaching a young guy to play Stairway and Jim told me, in person, and I will never forget this, that Stairway was NEVER played the same way twice by the band. It was cobbled together from the best takes and thats what is now etched into history. The most obvious example, there are actually so many, is the intro to Rock n Roll, which legions of drummers/bands have failed to get right... the answer??? The drum intro was cut together during mixing. I sincerely hope this revelation hasn't upset or thrown a spanner in the works of those analysing Led Zep's music. How can you count an edit??? YOU CAN'T!!
I assure you my story is genuine, I am happy to talk about it to anyone who cares to ask ;-) MUCH LOVE x
@Martin G nahh.. that's not true bro... Pagey had an interest in Crowley for a while, then he got bored with it, in general terms the band couldn't be arsed with that spiritual shit.. they just got stoned and shagged lots of women ... and.. who wouldn't in their position? ;-) x
I'm a drummer. I listened and relistened, analyzed, and reanalyzed that drum intro to Rock n Roll when I was a teenager / younger adult, and the best I could come up with was one measure of some odd time signature right before the rest of the band comes in. It sounds like exactly 5 accented eighth notes before the band comes in. Little did I know! I played it with a band when I was in high school, and I was playing it the way it's heard on the album. They had a hard time following it. The guitarist said why don't you just do 8 accented eighth notes before we come in? I was so used to the way it was on the album, I didn't want to. They just watched when I was about to hit the crash cymbal so they would know when to come in. Because they couldn't count it!
James Taylor good comment. In truth audiences dont give the slightest of f*cks whether the intro is right or not... it took me years to figure out that its always best to figure out simple version of a song that all band members can play than mess about wasting time with intricate intros etc. x
@@jamestaylor1149 Hi, James. In the intro of Rock 'n Roll all you have to do is hear the first 3 hits (the snare-hh-hh) as "and 4 and " (the 6th,7th,8th beat) of an 8/8. Then the actual 1 starts and everything locks in easily. Try it.
Vice Squad ... so at what age is it considered rape when musicians fuck young teens and girls not even teens? Is Jimmy Page a rapist? What about David Bowie? Hmmmm. Why do I know anything about the type of deviant sexual intercourse musicians have with minors? The world many never know how many licks it takes to get to the center of a cherries vagina. Would you like to talk about it?
this is actually so helpful. i’m going to think of this a lot more when i’m trying to figure out the rhythm of a song.
That's cool, cause how you just explained the bridge is how I've always felt it, and I constantly worried that I was feeling it wrong. Thank you for confirming my original beliefs.
That 'waeoooo' at 5:57 got me dead XD
Great to watch a technically skilled and theoretically trained musician in action. Great stuff.
Hi Jake, I'm not sure that I agree completely with you on where the beat is in this section. But you have made me think a lot about this. I'll do my research and get back to you. :)
5:58 😂😂😂love the gnarled vocalized chord 😂😂
EXCELLENT video. Thanks for shedding light for those who choose to see and understand it.
Man, thank you for giving me a good reason to have f'ed up that section for years in cover bands (drummer here). I finally figured it out a few years ago after hearing a live recording where Bonham marks time with his hi hat during that section, clearly defining the downbeat during the breaks. But your presentation here is really great, valuable info.
Messing with Zep, Jake?
You're aware this vid's going to get taken down in no time
Right?
I'm very scared of the copyright bots. Since it's all original music I think at worst they'll do revenue splitting and not just take the whole video down. The only actual clip from the song happens during my solo at the intro and i HEAVILY filtered it. Let's hope for the best...
I am reasonably sure this comes under "fair use" laws- You are clearly using the song in a completely different context, for a different purpose, and in very limited amounts. Ask a copyright lawyer, but I think your case may well be water tight.
@@deannilvalli6579 The problem is that neither the CR holders nor TH-cam care all that much about fair use.
Them Zeps owns them webs!
@iiiiiiii6660 I'm afraid it is. Ask Rick Beato just to make sure: th-cam.com/video/nnp2VS2cBwA/w-d-xo.html
This video is awesome. Everything here is 100% correct and it’s a very cool analysis of a pretty often over looked facet of a popular, albeit overplayed, modern pop classic.
What’s not awesome is the perception (in the comments) that “feeling something out” is necessarily a bad thing when it comes to music. If the part consistently hits with a band and a player doesn’t have a theoretical understanding of it, (perhaps you’re adding an eighth note that isn’t on the record and the group is accommodating) then that is okay. In a live performance context as long as there’s not a noticeable tear or the difference is harmful to the performers, then play it in whatever way accomplishes the a good take.
TL;DR this playa isn’t tryna shit on you if you don’t syncopate this part. He’s just sayin “hey most people play it like this, but on the record it’s actually this. Innit that weird?”
Flippin high quality video! First video I have watched of yours. Very interesting and very informative all at the same time!
I learned where the downbeat really is when i discovered the Zappa cover of Stairway, the drums in that rendition make it a lot more obvious
It reminds me to my struggling with "Walking on the moon" by "The Police"
love that song
I couldn't believe that hi hihat break was just delay
And they also speed up on the second half of that "presolo"
😂we need the full cut of “I want to syncopate” That’s an incredible song.
Sweet analysis. Just proves that it’s a special piece of history.
Rubato. You just feel it. Okay boys. And a one and a two and a....
You lost me at 'what if i told you '
No Shit.
Mandella effect!!!!!
Yeah, man! Great video! That bit starting at 5:30 was awesome (with the recording, drumming, and your counting). Thanks!
Haha great videos man, you’re great at explaining how music works, your content is authentic and interesting and you’re also funny and seem like a genuine nice guy.
That wacky Jimmy Page. Startin' on 1. What was he thinkin'...
I’ve never played that song for someone and have them run out mid song going until you get that upbeat down cold I don’t wanna wind down any road with you!!
I'd do the meter change up at 4:06. It just makes so much more sense, despite the fact that all the beats technically fit into common time. Also, Zep did 9/8 with "The Crunge", so there is an stylistic precedent. Every time I hear this part it throws me because the feel changes dramatically at, "they were upbeats the whole time, hahah-" *Batman slap* "No, it's different time signatures." I do really like your take, though. Being able to count it this way will strengthen one's listening and playing skills.
Well now I feel special. I've always played this part of the song this way. I have the advantage of formal music training and playing in a group, which helps to break some bad "playing by feel" habits you get from playing alone all the time. I still can't play the solo tho
Awesome video. Other fun examples: Drum fill at the beginning of REM’s “end of the world as we know it” or Ben Folds Five’s “Kate”.
2:10 Videotape by Radiohead EXPLAINED
Also No Signal by CHON
As a drummer who cut my teeth on Yes, Rush, Genesis, etc. I have always heard this as just a mix of odd-time figures - but your take on it makes total sense w/r/t where the downbeat actually is. The Police were masters of fooling you into downbeat mistakes. Re: Zep, a lot of people get the beginning of "Rock and Roll" wrong also (if you think about many of the old 50's rock and roll songs, it makes sense - e.g., Bill Haley, Elvis, Chuck Berry, Little Richard, et al). Nice job!
Answer (i think) - On the Led Zeppelin remastered (the one with the crop circles 3-4 discs) there's a disc that is primarily interviews. I recall hearing a story about Page talking w/ JPJ about speeding up the time during stairway...Jones didn't think it could be done and they tried it...could totally be wrong but I'm pretty sure i heard that.
I saw Jimmy page play the entire opening riff in the first position...
To be honest it's always been the poorly executed solos that have grated on my ears. The song is so goddamned iconic even poor Jimmy sounded wrong playing it live. He shifted the position of the first down run and while still elegant, it was kind of jarring.
For me, there are some things which are just etched in stone and are perfect and can never be replicated. Any band that undertakes this will inevitably be compared unfavorably. You *have* to make it your own, or suffer the indignation of failure.
As a photographer, it would be like trying to recapture Marilyn Monroe's iconic flying dress shot. It's a moment etched in stone. No woman could evoke the same expression and beauty, have the dress fly in that perfect way, and be captured from that perfect angle and lighting the way she was at that moment. I mean... it's... *possible*... but damn. It's really asking for an implausible level of excellence. Anyway, just my $3.
@Starhippo Hippo If the timing on the first down run in these two versions sounds the same to you, I don't know what to tell you.
th-cam.com/video/UqqKKa9AJK4/w-d-xo.html
th-cam.com/video/D9ioyEvdggk/w-d-xo.html
@@darioinfini you're absolutely correct here. If someone says that these sound the same then they clearly don't understand syncopated rhythm.
The first link sounds like he doesn't really hear the Drummer and he's going off of his own rhythm inside of his head which isn't always following the timing of the song that the Drummer is trying his best to stay in sync with.
And the second link is obviously the studio version that has a professional engineer that's quanatized the instruments, within the rhythm of the song, within a mastered mix of the song in its entirety.
The first link is hard for a Black man like myself to listen to comfortably; and I'm a musician. And have been since I was very young (I'm 53 now).
Rhythm is something that has been programmed into my DNA. And I take no credit for it, it's a gift from GOD.
But these are clearly different even though they are the same song.
It's comparable to a vocalist being autotuned in the studio and then being expected to perform live without the autotuning. Your ears immediately pick up on it. Even if they can get pretty close to the recorded version. It's just not the same.
Thanks for the links.
You've effectively proved your case counselor.
(Gavel slams!! Case dismissed😏)
@@redbrown7355 Haha thanks man. I learned to play that solo when I was 13 and I'm just slightly older than you. Maybe its just us old timers that can hear it LOL.
@@darioinfini
Yeah brotha you may be right😂😂😂
However, I truly appreciated how you laid out your case because as I stated in my comments, I am an Ol' School Black man that didn't grow up listening to this genre of music necessarily. Even though I know the song somewhat ( I mean who doesn't right).
But not well enough to debate it's content with someone that grew up listening to what we now call "Classic Rock".
So bringing it like you did allowed me to get into the debate, sort of like a Judge listening to the evidence being presented in a court of law (I may have missed my calling, LOL!!)
But It is absolutely undeniable evidence my friend!!
In my opinion of course. Others may disagree but I don't see how.
Whole other can of worms , Page did not try to play it like the record , and is great at improvising
The riff had stops in it and marched along
Page was great in his day at using relative diminished with melodic minor , Dickey Betts also approached music this way
The Rain Song is great Dancing days , the application of theory is obvious
In 4/4 you have to show beat 3 so you need to fix the second measure of your transcription the second quarter note should be 2 eighths. Also I had never heard this song before joining a wedding band so I just transcribed it and read it, I don’t know how this is hard for anybody, but thanks for teaching people who don’t know how to count it makes all of our lives easier!
Great video bro now I know why this song always stressed me out!🎵🎶🎼🎸
"Sometimes simple things can be very complex if you're looking at it from the wrong perspective."
WOW
Nice one! I seem to be playing it correctly, but now I understand what I do!
Now, there is a song many ppl got confused about. If you could do your magic on Metallica's "Orion"... there is a segment (let's say a third one, after a long intro with opening riff, and high notes bass theme) at around 2:12 that is soooo tricky. If you take into the account that the same thing is played at the end, but without a "trick", there's not many guitarists who even notice the trap.
The intro to Eagles Take it Easy always screws up cover bands as well. That first strum is assumed to be the downbeat but it's actually the upbeat of 4. So that first strum is actually "AND 1 ,2 ,3, 4 AND 2, 2, 3 ,4 "
Man, kudos to you. Great information here. It's certainly something I didn't think to do!
3:23 are you sans
For some reasons, I find the Jake Drummer sections absolutely hilarous. The look with the sunglasses, the way he says the "1, 2, 3, 4" and the weird transition when he just whoop away shrinking of the screen, it made me laugh :D
hahahaha my band had a big fight of this.. i tried telling them about to count the start as an upbeat but... just like you said its kindda awkward to do so.. finally someone can back me up with a proof that i analyze the song correctly
4:52 lmao
That's really helpful, thanks!
I was just trying to learn this song and when I got a little confused here I remembered this Video was still in my watch later list.
But seriously, who else just tried crossing their arms in the wrong direction?;)
I think the best part of lessons like this, to borrow your Matrix analogy, is to learn to 'free your mind'. Maybe this will inspire some creative thinking to write the next legendary song. Thanks from a fellow music nerd. I'm an intermediate level player at best, but I actually really enjoy learning theory. But then again, I read books on quantum theory for fun.......so go figure.
Entertaining and informative on every level. Well done! That section had bugged me for years! Thank you!!!!
Start video... takes sip of coffee... Video begins... coffee everywhere..
Love it LOVE IT!@!! Thank you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I dig all the downbeat deception videos that I've been finding! I too cannot play the Stairway solo. Great stuff!
ok, im on your band wagon dude. it sounded like an exact fit. nice work.
All I can say is "Do Phil Ehart" next. There is so much he did that is so interesting, and no one really can play Kansas without full understanding of the most underrated drummer in rock music.
Yes, Kansas was truly complex rhythmically. The sheet music is crazy.
I saw Jimmy and Simon Phillips fuck up this section in Madison Square Garden at the ARMS benefit. We are in good company.
Dude, try the S-Gear amp sim, vintage heaven, right up your street. None of that amplitube sugar coated noise
I would have never dreamed this needed explaining... the count has always been very clear to me throughout this section lol
I play rhythm guitar and drums, so I've always been able to feel it the right way, but not explain it lol you put how I feel the rhythm out into words
5:31 - 5:59 is probably the most-watched segment of a TH-cam clip ever
Ty, that cleared up a small knot I always had about a favorite song
Nice video dude, I liked the matrix clips and trying to cross your arms wrong lol
The Michael Knowles of music. loved it. thumbs up
(if you french fry when youre supposed to pizza) youre gonna have a bad time xd @3:22
Thanks very much Jake. You're a brilliant teacher with an amazing insight, and I'm sure grateful to learn what you've taught.
david
Awesome video, very funny and unique. You should tackle the timing of Bonham’s intro to “Rock n Roll” also. Often played incorrectly as well.