Hydraulic vs Solid Lifters: The Redux!-Engine Masters Preview Episode 48
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 14 ก.ค. 2024
- Watch this episode on MotorTrend! bit.ly/2YdkfAo
On this episode of Engine Masters, the comparison features 100-percent more hydraulic cam! Last round we compared hydraulic and solid roller lifters on hydraulic and solid cams, respectively. But we have more questions! For instance, can you actually run solid roller lifters on a hydraulic cam? Why would you? And, if you do, will they make more power? How long will they survive? - ยานยนต์และพาหนะ
This was always one of my favorite shows. Sorry they took it away. Big loss to the TH-cam community.
You haven’t gotten motortrend? It’s freaking awesome. I was also one of the sad you tubers but hey, it’s cheap and it’s so much content you can’t see it all. It’s good stuff.
There wasn’t a car channel better a couple years ago in my opinion.
It's back on TV.
They have to make money too ya know…..
@@lakebruhh you wrone my brother
Guys let me clear a few things up for you.
I had had experience with both for my daily driver LS3 stroker.
Because hydraulic roller camshafts have come such a long way over the years the power differences are not huge anymore till you get over 7000+rpm.
What the dyno doesn't tell you is how they perform and drive.
A solid roller not only does it sound better and more crisp, it also more responsive, revs cleaner and quicker at any given rpm.
There is less delay also.
If you were to fit an equivalent small/medium size hydraulic camshaft then convert those specs to a solid, not only will you pick up more power and torque but it will hold that power and torque to the red line with less drop off.
Plus, down the 1/4 mile there are also gains.
You will be quicker because of the more aggressive ramp rates.
Cam motion has caught onto this with their low lash solid roller camshafts which are designed for street use.
The lobes are not too aggressive but they will outperform any hydraulic roller lobe out there.
Once you go solid roller and experience it, you will not want to go back to a hydraulic,
Mr Mysterious for real. Building an LS now & my last build was a sbc with a Lunati solid roller that I bought & switched to. Hooked
I've been running solid lifters for 50 years.
I've been running solid lifters for over 50 years never had a problem. Have had two hydraulic cam setups, work ok , no problems but don't sound as good. Different applications so can't compare the performance.
I would’ve thought the gains would be better for the trade out. I’ll stick with my hydraulic lifters
The Brule is back! Another piece of engine knowledge that I’ll never use but was immensely satisfying to learn. The Roadkill family of shows are worth the MT subscription alone.
When I was a H.S. kid I owned a '70 Mustang Mach I with a 351 Cleveland. My Dad was an Engineer out at Cape Canaveral and we liked working on cars and we were going to build a high H.P. Cleveland engine. My Dad spoke with a High Po Machine shop in town and the manager informed him they had a used Dyatona Nascar 351 Cleveland Engine for sale that would probably save us some time and money. My Dad bought it and we took it home and started tearing it down and it surprised us both when we pulled the heads/lifters...it was a solid lifer engine but the end of the lifters that touched the cam lobes had mushroomed shaped heads. We learned that was a NASCAR secret at the time that some of the builders were using to cut down on friction as they weren't allowed to use roller lifters at the time. The engine turned out to be a beast...4 bolt main that appeared to have the Windsor crankshaft journals/rods but definitely the Cleveland heads with some crazy high ported exhaust ports. We did a cheap rebuild just honing and replacing rings/bearings and blue printed what we could and put an edelbrock manifold on her with a holley 1100 mech double pumper...with just minimal tuning the engine pulled 515 B.H.P. on the machine shop dyno.
And mushroomed lifters are from high spring pressures used wearing down both cam and lifters during ONE race!!! No secrets there.
Mushroom lifters was a period thing, had to use flat tappet and the lifter base was not enough for the radical flat tappet. And feel sorry for the Chev guys as the Chev lifter started off smaller. Once roller cams became legal there was no reason to use mushroom lifters.
Today you'd make another 100hp without the mushroom lifters.
@@danieldimitri6133I failed to mention we didn't use the NASCAR cam or lifters...the lift and duration was too high/long for the street my dad felt. We went with a crane solid setup...can't remember the numbers but it was substantial....idled rough but very streetable. The engine as we got it had about a 13.5:1 compression ratio and my dad did some combustion chamber work (at their machine shop out at The Cape...haha) to get it down to around 11.5:1...ran her with a close ratio top loader and 4:10 gears in the 9 inch rear end...only had her for a portion of my Sr. year in H.S., ended up blowing the tranny about the time I was off to Engineering College and Pop unloaded her, but for a few months I had the fastest car in town.
@@stevefowler2112 cool. I feel like Cleveland engines fell out of popularity but could still be formidable. Sometimes a real big block is more than you need and you end up with something heavy and built mildly but 302 blocks and even chevy blocks are too small and restricted in the head to do what you want. The 351 engines have a bit taller deck for strokers with decent connecting rod lengths and Clevelands look like they can fit some nice ports. Done right you could turn some ls or coyote car meets upside down with something that looks like the average old weekend warrior.
Appreciate you guys not leaving us hanging on throttle up like you normally do. Thumbs up from me.
Guy reminds me of Robert Duvall hahaha
Good video about why certain valve train parts need to be changed from time to time. Much appreciated.
Solid lifters provide more accurate valve timing and follow the camshaft lobe profile better, especially at higher rpm's. There is a lag with hyd lifters because of oil temp and viscosity. I would've thought the gains would be greater, to be honest.
Best answer , so far. I have thought about this for years. The minute you say soild lifter cam profiles go way up. Thanks
More stress on longer pushrods. I would recommend anyone THAT does these things think about pushrod size and material. Love the VIDEOS!!!
Thank's for keeping the distributor stumble thing in. That never happen's to me. Miss these dyno rm, proof in the pudding thing's...
I thought I read a while back that they qualify hydraulic cams by using solid lifters, and lashing them at .003-.006 in. But I’m not sure if they were talking flat tappet or roller. Quality components make all the difference as well. Thank you for another great video from the dyno gods.
Good this settled my argument about if solid lift rollers have the same “ping” as a regular solid lift
(higher/quieter engine sound)
THANK YOU SO MUCH. GREAT VIDEO AND EDUCATION. THANKS FOR SHARING.
Excellent production quality
0.002" gauges are not far from pushing a string. For a 3/8" stud, I think 7 1/2 degrees turn past zero gets you there - I've done it with a torque angle gauge, but getting a solid anchor point was a little trouble [I need to build a jig that bolts into valve cover holes if I ever do that again]. I helps to have a REALLY good feel on where zero lash is, and that varies person to person.
I agree with AT down below, my guess would have been that the solid lifters follow the cam profile more accurately as well. I would think that the hydraulics could have a little performance variation between each one due to internal tolerances, heat , rpm ,etc.
I wonder how much their views have dropped since getting rid of their shows on youtube. People keep saying they want the episodes back on youtube for free. It's not like they aren't getting money for it, they still get advertising money after all. Yet they won't listen to what the people want. Eventually people will stop caring about the shows. Meanwhile, grassroot car channels that run on youtube alone are booming and leaving motor trend in the dust. Roadkill and Engine Masters were two shows that I genuinely looked forward to seeing new episodes of, and would often watch on the first day. Sometimes twice even with a friend. I know they exist on motor trend's website, but I'm not about to whip out my credit card for it. I'll just keep watching other channels on youtube.
I only subscribed to this channel for these guys. But since its no loger on youtube im out.
Scott Knight 👋
Great respect for these guys vast knowledge. Lots of good comments in the comments section too
Having just bought some light Nascar lifters for a solid lifter [flat tappet] cam it will be interesting to see if they make any difference
Is it true solid lifter require a lot to maintain? I want to add a solid cam and lifters to my 350 sbc. It just sounds AMAZING! And i guess ill need new rods because the lifter are shorter.
I agree with anonymous 70909. The point is higher revs without valve float
So 9hp & 3.6FtLbs is all the difference? Think I'm gonna stick with the trouble free maintenance of the Hyd Roller in my street /strip ride.
Why? Cause the lifter doesn't compress hence greater valve lift
I would agree with your statement and also add that the lighter combo could reduce peresetic draw helping in increased hp numbers.
the reason for solid lifters is to prevent float at higher rpms.
@@grandmasmalibu Still more trouble than their worth. That's just my opinion and to each their own.
I realize this is an old post but what happens to the hydraulic lifter's feature of pumping oil up the pushrod to lube the rocker area since it looks like the solid rocker wouldn't be able to do that. Wouldn't the block need to support an alternate means of lubing this area?
@@atubebuff they have an oiling hole.
@@anonymous70909 But then why would need the mechanical pump mechanism integrated in the hydraulic lifter?
@@atubebuff it is really for the lifters the oil pump does all the work.
Is there a kit for a big block to change over , looking for the super simple setup for my 502 big block 589 lift torque monster
For that gain, I’ll stick to my hydraulic....not worth going to solid for the troubles
I could not agree with you more.
Today's solid lifters are far less trouble than the ones we used when I was young. Better metallurgy, better design, roller bearing. It's not a every other weekend for me anymore.
Or the money. Better spent elsewhere on the motor.
Hidraulic lifter much more reliable than solid stupid lifter.
The solid lifter combo will make more power because the valves will open quicker and the area "under the curve" will be wider. Even if lift and duration are equal. Especially with a roller. Hydraulics have gotten way better over the years and the difference on street bound, pump gas engines is negligible.
Wish these shows was on t,v .
Anything that Steve Brule is in, I'll watch.
Please do a inline 6 4.0 jeep motor I want to hope mine up but there is no good info.
Been running my hydraulic roller with solid roller lifters for the past 4 years with no issues. Cold lash at .005". Did it mostly because of the high hydraulic roller lifter failures.
So Hydraulic roller lifters fail. Thought they lasted forever compared to solid roller lifters. Isky makes 7500rpm Hydraulic roller lifters. Do they last and no valve float, or stick with solid roller lifters for 7200rpm plus?
what do you set your hot lash at? just built a fresh 383 w hyd cam and solid roller lifters and alum heads and trying to figure out my hot lash so I can break it in
How often have you had to set valve lash with this hyd cam and solid roller lifter setup?
thank you ! I have more solid roller lifters than I do hydraulic. I have a new Howards hydraulic roller cam and I'm going to run my solid roller lifters on it. I use to drag race a 1976 Honda motor cycle and you would set the valve lash at .002" on the intake and .003" on the exhaust cold, and once my rocker arm adjuster came loose and it was hot. So I checked the lash on one of the other valves and it was .007" so I adjusted the loose one with the same lash and it ran great and I think I won that night.
So going to the lighter solid lifters the valves springs wouldn't need to be replaced. Giving up very little duration and lift for more valve train stability.
I think of a solid roller cam as high RPM and accurate valve timing specially for high compression motors hydraulics make a good Street lifter
what was the cam profile, did this on my 383 w .585 lift hyd cam
just curious what size engine is this,,383 chev or 350.
Re the zero lash initial adjustment: Suppose you lashed it at 0.008, then checked how far you had to turn the wrench to get back to zero lash. Suppose it was a full turn. Then you'd adjust to zero lash, open it up 1/4 turn and it should be very close to 0.002 lash.
Grab a dial gauge & stand - you will be amazed how far off that is.
What happened to full length episode on roadkill
Gabe Head Stuck behind the paywall
I was wondering that too
U have to pay for it on motor trend ondemand
@@jeremyframo1886 they would put full episodes up months after for free
No bleed off at upper rpm range with solids
can u make a video testing supercharger vs. turbocharger?
I would like to see the same test but with a better hydraulic roller lifter like a compcams short travel lifter
Wish they would compare an old school solid flat to Hyd rollers. There is a lot of power in a solid flat tappet.
I drag raced large flat tappets and roller lifters. The problem with flat tappets is all of the pressure from 16 big springs and the friction on the camshaft. Both cams had about the same duration. I left at 5500 RPM on both and shifted at 7500 RPM, the roller was a 309 -312 dur. 276* & 279* @ .050 with .630 & .638 lift and the flat tappet was 308 and 316 adv. dur. and it was 275 and 281 dur. @ .050" with .590 int. and .595 ex. lift that little 327 would run
@@jerryvessels861 I wonder what the real world friction is at the crank with a solid flat (w/EDM) vs hyd roller considering the spring rates. My 586/250@.050 SF only has ridiculously low spring rates compared to the hyd roller equivalent.
Is there a video explaining why?
Well, don't stop there,
"Keep learning!"
Regarding solid lifters, I know people talk about having to "check and adjust" them regularly. I ran them in a 327 back in the day, and after about 3 "checks" they stopped changing on the lash. Realize that, for example the old Chevrolet straight-six "stovebolt" motors (i.e., 216, 235) had solid lifters - that's all they had back in the day . . . well, they never had to have their valves "checked and adjusted" beyond break-in, and maybe once after that. They are really quite robust and not the problem child some paint them out to be . . .
My EA888 engine has hydraulic lifters but the piston isn't the it that reciprocates, the centre pivot is.
My question is which one is more reliable? Which cam lobes go flat first?
There are an infinite number of variables that effect the cam lobe to lifter interface and could never be accurately measured. Materials have come a long way and there's plenty of solids both flat and roller that can outlast any OEM hydraulic.
What motor are they working with here?
My number 3 and 5 cylinder in my sbc 383 seem to require longer pushrods than all the other cylinders. Literally a full additional turn on the rocker cups to get them within the .019 spec. I have 7.900 in pushrods for all the other cylinders but those two require like an 8.10 to keep it under the two turns for these shaft rockers. Any idea why this is? It's a solid roller cam.
Have you checked the installed height on all your valves?
Old video but only good info on here
Do I need better rockers or
Or upgraded ones to run solid lifters?
do your research, there is very little HP to be gained using roller rockers. The roller tip helps the valve guide wear less.
But how many pulls before the hydraulic lifter fades away?....drag racers use solid for a reason. Might have to reset gap a few times but it beats $375. every few runs.
No fair, I want to see a solid grind cam swap also.
Apparently you can't do that putting a hy lifter on a soild grind cam
Takeaway should be that the solids BARELY made more power... Ima call that a victory for the hydraulics all factors considered.
More money and work than I'm willing to spend for 9 hp.
Marvin plus the upkeep
Marvin true but it varies engine to engine
9 extra horses matter
@@ethanjohnson1614 sometimes does sometimes not. Depends a lot on the person and car
Umm not sure where you got your information but solid lifters are actually half the price of hydraulic lifters. Your actually saving $300 doing this. And it's not the 9hp that makes a difference it's the feel of the engine. Engines with a well setup carb and a hot lash cam setup are so responsive and snappy it's incredible. The throttle response is very fast and it revs up extremely quickly.
Could you give me a solid roller camshaft recommendation, for a bracket racing drag car?
It's for a 427 sbc, 10.5:1 compression, AFR Competition Ported 210cc cylinder heads 2.08/1.60, super victor intake, 3000lb car, 4.56 gear, TH350, TH400, or a Powerglide transmission. Not sure yet what transmission to use.
powerglide 4 sure / takes 80 horsepower or so less to turn / will turn 1/2 sec. quicker in 1/4 mile et. compared to TH350. With that combo. Com Cams #12-908-9 with .630 lift int.-exh. 264*intake dur. @.050--270exh. dur. @.050 best cam. good combo. of mid-range and top end./ good throttle response in water box
& mid-range torque with streetable 10.5 compression. With good traction that comp. should run mid 10's easy.
it takes 18 HP to spin a power glide and 35 HP to spin a 350 turbo and 45 HP to spin a 400 turbo, now you know, the problem is the 1st. gear ratio
I've ran both on the street solid lifters all the way for anything over 6000 rpm way more power
So stick with solid roller lifters for a 7200rpm motor. What about Isky's 7500rpm bushed Hydraulic roller lifters. Do they still valve float. Will i lose power going from solid to Hydraulic?
I did not know that Robert Duvall was a mechanic too.
I adjust solid tappet valve lash while the motor's running & warm. Tighten them up until they're quiet, then one at a time loosen them to tick and back to pin point on quiet, them loosen them all by a quarter turn. And let'r Rip!
How can setting lash tight hot cause hung valves cold? Setting lash tight cold and when hot, then maybe yes, the valve will be hung open? thanks for the great videos.
The motor expands (grows) when hot. Push rods become a little looser. If adjusted tight when hot, engine shrinks per say when it cools tightening up the push rods too much and may open valves when cam is on base circle (when they should be closed).
the lash gets larger as the metal expands when it gets hot and the lash gets smaller when it gets cold. You have to have some lash with a solid so it wont hang the valve open. An open valve will not give you any compression
@@jerryvessels861 Oh thanks, I though just the opposite. Thanks for replying.
Wats the specs on the can
Are bushed better than pin in a 550hp motor. Ford 363w
Why... really? More stable valvetrain. Before the valve is completely open the lobe has moved and pressure released so valve doesn't always open completely and is slower to open.
can you convert to solid lifters using the same cam, or do you need a different cam?
If it's hydraulic roller, u can use same cam
So you can put soild lifters on a hy cam . Would that work on a flat tappet cam as well
yes a friend of mine did it for years
Hey motortrend: didn't you guys assured the community (by freiberger himself), that all "old" #roadkill episode will be free to watch. How does it come, that ALL episodes are "locked" on your site and now almost all "original" youtube episodes got taken down/switched to private?
It's a cash cow 4.99 a month gets you access.
How does a solid lifter oil the rockers?
Im interested to see how a flat tappet cam would do with hydraulic roller lifters.
Same here
From memory you shouldn't do this as there is a slight angle in the face of a flat-tappet profile to help rotate the lifter during use and spread the wear pattern. A roller profile is dead flat. Also, a heavier roller lifter on a flat-tappet camshaft will not only provide no increase in performance but actually degrade performance at high rpm (all other things equal) as the lifter is that much heavier. You can run flat tappet solids on a flat tappet hydraulic camshaft, though... which would likely provide similar results as in the video.
Crash & burn: lobe taper will cut rollers or vice versa - IF the axles/dogbones survive being side loaded.
my guess is air in the oil loss of lift on hydraulic lifters.
There's a reason many asian manufacturers use solid rollers on stock vehicles, this isn't hard to believe at all
you guys mentioned crane cams, are they still in business?
Harvey Crane passed and they went out of business for a while, but they are up and running again with different personnel.
Longitvity would be choosing pushrod hardness, if one bends save your motor vs one kissing...🙊🔧📐📌🐉🧤🙏
Roadkill! That's what we need! That's what got you your following in the beginning!
Stable
I wanna see Yamaha do a skunk works project to make a V8, at least 5.0L. No competition's info available, just their own information. You know they would make it original and make to rev.
So... can you actually run solid lifters on a hydraulic cam? If not, why? Can you run hydraulic lifters on a solid cam? If not, why? What's the difference between the two types of cams that prohibits switching solid for hydraulic or vice-versa? Different profile? Different shape of the lobes? Different metal composition?
8620 steel billet roller cams top of food chain. / SADI cam cores for street type hydraulic roller cams. Cast core camshafts failures in street apps. not an issue with 180lb valve seat pressure. 8620 steel billet cams will take 250lb valve seat pressure all day long. One issue with 8620 cam core is distributor gear failure on everyday street use. Solution to this problem / bronze dist. gear or press on cast dist. gear on 8620 cam. Isky, CraneCams, Doug Herbert Cams offer 8620 core cams with cast gear pressed on camshaft for additional charge. Lobes are the same for hydraulic roller or solid roller. If in doubt look up part numbers in Doug Herberts catalog. same cam up to .600+ lift. Above that lift cast gear not able to take it without failure. Therefore hydraulic roller cams SADI core ok below .600 lift. No distributor gear problems. Hope that helps.
Pump up vs bleed down, vs float.. Who knows? I can think of a reason bottoming lifter might prevent pump up as well as bleed down but I don't know which is true. Either way hydraulics suck. As in they suck your power. Anyway in this episode Steve zero lashes the valves assuming that they loosen when it heats up. Probably not a bad assumption as the lifter Valley may be cooler than the water jackets if the ventilation is good and the heads are aluminum and expand more than the pushrods.. But one thing to consider especially for the marine guys who may run iron heads to avoid a closed cooling system is that the valve seats may wear and valves may tulip and tighten up that cold engine lash so maybe a couple thou lash isn't a bad idea.
Still waiting on a coyote build/test
You will be waiting.... these guys are all Chevy...
I have a 1991 Dodge truck it has to 318 it is a hydraulic roller cam I do not understand this and why can't I use a hydraulic cam if it's hydraulic roller cam
The new on demand app is even worse! Anyone having streaming issues to a Samsung Smart TV? Only my chromecast TV's are showing up now. #roadkill
NO ASSEMBLY LUBE??
more power, but relaibility and smoothness goes down...
Last time I set valves too tight I burned and exhaust vakve
I watched this and the only conclusion I could come to is how much more sense overhead cams make.
Can I use solid roller on hydraulic roller cam?
yes
I see you cant watch the shows anymore for free you have to sign up. That really blows now
Not worth the 10hp gains and 3 foot pound of torque. For those that can't watch . The base motor made 501hp & 471 tq . With the solid rollers it made 511hp & 474 tq. To me the added cost of longer push rods and solid lifters its not worth the 10hp gain. If starting from scratch I would consider it .
i don't blame the guys on the show, i blame the corporate.
So basically it’s a 5 to 10 hp gain switching to solid. Good for racing not for everyday driving in my eyes. Idk bout you but I’m not adjusting valves on a monthly basis while I’m driving to the beach or work in my chevelle. I will stay with hydraulic.
Solid lifters just aren’t worth it, depending on application of course.
I would hypothesize that the hydraulic lifter compresses and loses a little bit of lift. While oil doesn't compress very well. Steel bodied lifters compress even less. So I would bet the dynamic valve lift numbers are maybe 10-20 tho more with solid lifters. Working as a race car mechanic we tend to test strange things. We once quantified the difference in valve lift between rockers of different designs to see if they varied in lift, as we were using very high spring rate dual valve springs. We ended up losing a surprising amount of lift at the valve from flex in the rocker arms using semi static evaluation. I bet if you put this on a spintron you could get better data.
Base principle is isothermal compressibilities, oil is up to about 3x more compressible than water...
Oil compresses if there is air in it...
Considering the lack of reliability on the solid rollers not worth the trade off for a few horsepower. You also lose idle vacuum with the solid roller which can be a pain on the street.
so what is it that you think is going to wear? they both have rollers. The old Detroit Diesels ran solid lifters for years with no problems and all diesels run solid rollers with lash and live a lot longer than flat tappet lifters
Steve dolchichzwzchsss walked by my house today and he kicked my dog
Yonke
🤯
hi'
The effect of lash on warm vs cold is actually opposite on some applications. For example, solid lifter over head cam bucket set ups. They tend to have less lash when warm.
Rotating Mass
And the fat street racers say: I need to make this car lighter to go faster, lol
Hey