BYP Responds #4 #1 Archaeological Proof for the Book of Mormon - Philip Jenkins/Bill Hamblin Debate
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 26 ก.ย. 2024
- THE FULL PHILIP JENKINS, BILL HAMBLIN DEBATE:
sites.baylor.e...
Mormon apologists are mostly in favor of this #1 top archaeological proof for the Book of Mormon. I respond to it, it's lack of strength, and the weaknesses of apologetic arguments.
Link to my intermediate video on What an archaeological Bullseye actually looks like:
• EP 05 Backyard Profess...
If you put "Jenkins vs Hamblin debate" in the title you'll get so many more views on this video over the next five years than otherwise. Based on the title I had no idea this was going to cover the Jenkins/Hamblin debates and I was delighted.
It only lets me use 100 letters, so thank you for the suggestion however!
@@TheBackyardProfessor the next episode I would title "The Backyard Professors Responds: The Jenkins and Hamblin Debate Concluded!" and plug the first episode in the video and provide a link in the video notes to juice the first video. It's an interesting moment in Mormon apologetics that you've handled masterfully.
@@zackc3767 Excellent suggestion. I thank you deeply, I shall do that!
The basic frustration with engaging with LDS apologists is clearly that they can never concede that they are defeated in an arena. The basic plan is: 1. assert that there is "a lot" of evidence to prove the BOM to be historical 2. when they can't bring any evidence to support this assertion, then revert to the arena of faith, while simultaneously making it clear that "well actual evidence in this area is really unnecessary because I have a testimony." The realm of faith to which the apologist retreats is unfalsifiable, and literally can never be disproven by logic, reason or science.
At least not in person or public. But if they are thinkers and honest about it, they do come around and recognize their conundrum, and some of us do something about it....
You all just ignore the evidence or dismiss it
Oh yeah, the classic "how could Joseph Smith have possibly known [fill in this blank with far-fetched conclusion based on a string of hypothetical "what ifs" all assumed to be facts]? Yes, how could Joseph Smith have possibly known that somewhere in the Levant someone named Ishmael would be buried in an area where Hebrew letters roughly equivalent to "n", "h" and "m" would also be found? (Answer: He didn't have to know. In a book consisting of a quarter million words, it's actually surprising that more remarkable parallels have not been found.) Meanwhile, here's a more important question: How could Walt Disney have possibly known that many years after Steamboat Willie was created a dead mouse would be found on an old steamboat...only 10 feet away from an old piece of luggage with the initials "S" and "W" on it? Hmmmn? Steamboat Willie was a real steamboat captain, folks. Don't deny it.
"Never Historical Mormons" --- yes, Lehi did indeed leave us a message on that rock.
This is so good. As someone who tried, briefly and unsuccessfully, to reconstruct and fully understand the Jenkins/Hamblin debate, I really appreciate you distilling it to its essence. Bill Hamblin was not quite as insufferable as Lou Midgley, but he was close (with Dan Peterson very close behind).
Excellent and informative presentation. Loved it
Thank you. Thanks for your support and enthisoasm. More to come!
Hey BYP, have you done any research on the Ohio decalouge stone and keystone? That would be a good episode to follow this one regarding archeological evidence.
I have not yet. Thanks for the heads up I shall look into this one. Thanks for your support!
This was fascinating and very enjoyable! Thank you for making such an entertaining video packed with information.
My good pleasure. Thank you for being a part of it!
So…I’m about halfway through the video here and I’m just going to throw out a couple of thoughts. Two points that I’ve noticed pretty much through the entire video because frankly it’s getting tedious at this point… You are repeating yourself. A lot. I think you’re putting a lot of stock into one person‘s argument against the Latter-day Saint Church beliefs, and the truth or validity of the Book of Mormon as a real ancient text, describing actual events and groups of people that lived in the ancient Americas.
It’s easy to attack something that you don’t believe or have never seen personally transpire. I get it. People attack the Bible. They attack the Quran. They attack the Vedic scrolls. they attack each other, and pretty much anything under the sun, which they don’t agree with or don’t understand. People attack things they don’t understand out of fear, ignorance, anger, and insecurity.
I actually understand that sometimes humans get angry or upset when they can’t comprehend something, so they take the caveman approach and throw rocks at it. Actually, I probably shouldn’t say that because it’s an insult to people that lived in caves since they were very intelligent and resourceful. I think as a species, we have regressed. We have more willfully ignorant people on the planet now than ever before.
Also, I’ve noticed that you seem to be both antagonistic and also pleading with us to take your side. I’m not finding anything about your arguments very convincing . This seems more like an extended rant and less like any kind of actual solid argument using actual evidence and legitimate reasoning to question the book of Mormon being an actual ancient historical book / text / artifact. After all, I have never seen it personally, but I have read quite a bit of it, although not all of it, and I find it very compelling. As a Christian, I enjoy comparing it to the Bible, and also other ancient sacred texts.
However, I’m not an “expert” and, it doesn’t seem like you are either. So my main question would be did Mr. Jenkins ever actually read the entire book of Mormon? If he did, then I suppose he would be thinking along the lines of… Is there any evidence to prove any of this is true? Is any of this actually tangible or possible? Could this have happened and simply not left a tremendous amount of evidence behind?
Is it plausible that earthquakes and other natural disasters actually happened in the Americas, which might have destroyed a great deal of the evidence which would otherwise have appeared? Is it also possible that our own historical records have been whitewashed by our government and society in general to erase Remnants and traces of ancient Native American cultures in America? I can tell you that last one has actually happened. Unfortunately.
Then it would come down to a matter of whether or not Mr. Jenkins and any other number of scholarly types that put their primary faith in science, and only what they can detect with their five senses even believed in the existence of a deity. There are a lot of people who attack or revile anything that they don’t personally believe. Instead, it seems like he was making a comment from the peanut gallery and throwing stones at a passing car as he sat at the café, sipping iced coffee, as if it were an afterthought he was entertaining out of curiosity and boredom.
I see this a lot in academia…scholars seem to think that they know a lot more about something than anyone else on the planet but the more I delve into what they actually know, the more disappointed I am. I have tried to go to scholars and scientists about things that were not even connected to the book of Mormon and they were a bit snobbish in my opinion. I’m not gonna paint all of them with the same brush, some of them have actually been quite pleasant and helpful.
I also think that they have a deity complex sometimes. As for the evidence, there’s actually quite a bit of evidence if you are able to overlay archaeology, history, geology, geography, known history, the book of Mormon, descriptions, and frames… And Native American lore and sacred teachings. But you have to have all of those factors. Unfortunately, scholars are too busy telling everybody else what they know and what they should know and who they are and where they’re from to actually stop and shut up and listen for a change. I’ve seen this as well.
I’ll give you a star for effort, but frankly what you presented in this video is unsubstantial and just appears to be a floundering rambling attack on something that you have made the decision you no longer believe. That’s OK. You can believe what you like, and of course you have your freedom of speech in America at least for a little while longer. But why are you wasting so much effort?
This is the thing that mystifies me about people who hate the church and hate the book of Mormon and hate shows Smith and hate the prophets, etc., etc. if I hate something, I don’t even bother going. I just brush it off and get on with my life and move away from it. I’ve never understood why so many people hate and attack the church and the book of Mormon and a man who is now dead for over 100 years. I consider disrespectful personally, but that’s just me.
But hey, it’s your life if you want to dedicate an entire TH-cam channel like so many other sad people to attacking another group of peoples beliefs, then knock yourself out. I was actually hoping you would come up with something legitimate here so it could actually be argued or debated, but I don’t see anything valid here. Just a long rambling attack quoting another man asking a question. Talk about beating a dead prehistoric horse :-)
Of course, "Nahom" is a vote in favor of the Book of Mormon, but you are right- not in the realm of archaeology.
Ohhh… the great source of all sources, Ward Radio.
Lol. Yeah they hype things up enormously don't they!
I do not like the bearded look either in video form or ai drawn. Not your best look
I’m sorry, did he ask for your opinion?
Never Historical Mormons --- strange name for a town in the arabian desert.
I think Hamblin was dishonest when he said that ABMS is incorporated into all those courses at BYU. I took a couple of courses that could have included such material. I never heard a word about Book of Mormon connections.
No surprise. I have heard from other students who said it is just super duper basic like who was Nephi's father? And other some such .... not even scholarship as Hamblin was leading on.......
@@TheBackyardProfessor I'm not counting religion classes. They were not scholarly. I'm thinking of archeology, for example.
The Holy Spirit has testified to me that its true Joseph Smith gave his life for it no man on earth could have made it up
Hugh Nibley's books taught me how to be a bullsh*t artist.
Yeah he complained about the ancient rhetors, all the while being a modern one, that is, using their craft which was to make the false appear to be true, and the true appear to be false. One of the deepest ironies of his life.
I was bamboozled by him has a young TBM. Thank gawd I met real academics and grew out of it.
@@KendraAndTheLaw It was also my study of the Biblical scholars that showed me Nibley was playing fast and loose with not only the text, but with translation issues as well. Ritner showed the same with Nibley on the Papyri issues.
Nibley was proficient at "parallelomania":
" a “parallel” is the occurrence in a separate text of a key phrase, idea, or term that closely matches the same one found in the text under consideration...
" In fact, a case could be made that Nibley is guilty of parallelomania. The term “parallelomania” has been used to describe the overuse or improper use of parallels in the exposition of a text. As the Jewish scholar of the New Testament Samuel Sandmel explains, parallelomania is “that extravagance among scholars which first overdoes the supposed similarity in passages and then proceeds to describe source and derivation as if implying connection flowing in an inevitable or predetermined direction.”
---"Parallelomania and the Study of Latter-day Scripture: Confirmation, Coincidence, or the Collective Unconscious?"
Douglas F. Salmon
@@randyjordan5521 That was such an eye opening article for me.......
Hairy Gary Busey is big mad. Showing off his doctorate in Cope-ology.
Ooc what are you now? Another type of christian? Atheist? Agnostic?
I'm a seeker and learner at this point. Keeping my eyes open and brain working through things.
I used to respect the BYP. I’m so disappointed in him and what he has become.
Why?
You're sad to see someone progress from an irrational mindset to a rational one? You're sad to see someone abandon false, nonsensical beliefs and attitudes and begin thinking logically?
How do you feel about Leah Remini and Mike Rinder? Did you like them better when they were troo believing Scientologists?
Oh, no need to be disappointed, I am growing and enjoying learning new truth all the time. If the respect was based upon belief in a church, then it was entirely misplaced, and that's fine.
Amen. It's a cautionary tale.