What is Grimdark Fantasy?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 21 ก.ย. 2024
- We discussed High Fantasy vs. Low Fantasy recently, and there seems to be some confusion about Low Fantasy versus Grimdark Fantasy. High and Low Fantasy refer to a type of setting.
High Fantasy takes place in a world in which the supernatural is natural and magic is normalized (i.e. The Wheel of Time, Mistborn, The Witcher). Low Fantasy is set in a world where the supernatural is invading an otherwise normal world (i.e. A Song of Ice and Fire, Outlander, Harry Potter).
Books that fall into Grimdark Fantasy are gritty, nihilistic, and-you guessed it-grim and dark. These stories grapple heavily with topics of injustice, corruption, vice, and hypocrisy, especially among people in power. They can be High Fantasy (The Witcher) or Low Fantasy (A Song of Ice and Fire).
Grimdark is the backlash to the idealistic, Disney fairytale-type Fantasy story and seeks to shed light on the seedy underbelly of human nature.
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Another way to view grimdark is that it's the dying light that holds back the darkness. The endless struggle to victory. The never ending suffering while you glimpse the small candle in the distance.
Except that every "grimdark" story ends with the dying light ACTUALLY dying. That's...kind of the point. Hope is for idiots in grimdark.
what you describe is actually more Noblebright.
a key difference is if the light goes out at the end, or if it keeps holding.
@ZekeRaiden Hope is the only thing that keeps grimdark stories going though. Hope and grim faced determination. The Hope that somehow, some way, there will be ultimate victory after all the fighting. Hope isn't for fools, it's for those with vision.
@lineseyaether Eh, noblebright is often where the light is seen. You know the good ending is there. Grimdark is when you don't see the happy ending, when there is no reason to continue fighting and yet continue to do so.
@@duplicitouscanadian3073 Then why do so many grimdark stories end with good people being utterly crushed? With, as the video says, "pyrrhic victories" where you get the world but lose your soul, or lose the world *and* your soul?
Grimdark _prides_ itself on "literally nothing will change, the world is a slaughterhouse forever and you *cannot* make it better." That's the whole point of the term. "In the _grim darkness_ of the far future, *there is only war."*
I write grimdark. I write grimdark romance. It's as you say, it's to wrestle with demons. And I write, *specifically* as a coping mechanism for PTSD and extreme trauma from surviving some of the most horrible things a human can (I grew up in Darfur).
The light is dying. The heroes, such that they are, are nearly as brutal as the villains. And in the end, if the world is going to burn, at least we'll be warm.
I'm so sorry you had to go through this!
@@johannageisel5390 Hey, ain't your fault. Made me the woman I am today. I spend my time (when health allows) fighting for human rights, educating them as I can, and trying to help where I can. I'm a lot better'n I was even just 5 years ago, let alone 20.
The world is cold and cruel, but there's beauty to be found in it, too. Never forget that.
@@Diana2112Gaming I'm glad you found the strength to do good things.
It's just... When I read where you grew up, I had to think of all the other horrible wars, genocides and massacres that happened only during my lifetime! And that it never ends. I feel so extremely helpless.
@@johannageisel5390 I am so sorry that I brought that on you! ;.; That was certainly not my intent! You are right though, it never seems to end. As long as one can justify cruelty in the name of [insert whatever asinine reason here], it will sadly, continue.
But never feel like you're helpless. You're not! Even if all you can do is help those you care about by building them up, that's more power than you'll ever know. And that's honestly the true power of a Grimdark story, that's not went over in this video--the power of the Human Spirit, the unshakable, unbreakable Human Spirit. That ability to stand up and scream into the Endless Void, "I WILL fight on, Until The Final Sunrise," no matter what. Head bloodied, but unbowed. Body beaten, but unbroken.
So never feel like you're helpless! But DO tell those around you that you care.
@@Diana2112Gaming Oh, please do not apologize for telling where you grew up! It's not your responsibility to not upset my feelings.
And yeah, I try to build up those around me.
The term is inspired by the tagline of the tabletop strategy game Warhammer 40,000: "In the grim darkness of the far future there is only war.". I think notion that it has to do with people wrestling with demon is very interesting considering the player base. In game that is a literal, but perhaps you were also being figurative?
I think far too much about 40k, and this has blown my third eye wide open, holy shit.
@@singtothesilence The Emperor Protects. May the Inquisition judge you without taint.
I was pretty disappointed this video mentioned 40k but didn't realize or bother to explain how 40k is the origin of the term.
@@aaron.k. Honestly, Warhammer and Warhammer 40K started (and largely continue to be) mashups of other people's work I wouldn't be surprised if they a borrowed the term as well.
@@RecklessFables The term came from the tagline on 3rd edition. It wasn't widely used or used to denote any kind of genre before that. I think a lot of the source material does come from Moorcock, Philip Jose Farmer, Herbert, etc. (and Rick Priestly readily admits that). But this term was inspired by them.
One key reason Wheel of Time is not Grimdark: the default assumption is that people are good.
There is evil, torture, violence, etc., but most of the characters recoil from it. Two Rivers has its Women's Circle and Village Council, promoting community standards. The Aes Sedai might become corrupt, but there is pressure to obey the oaths. Even lying after swearing an oath is treated as an unusual act. There is a force for good still in that world, and people expect strangers to be good.
In contrast, in ASOIAF, the default is broken: people commit horrible acts, and most bystanders shrug. Torture, mass murder, etc., are all so common that people in that world are largely numb to it all. Strangers are assumed to be evil or horribly flawed.
I had the same thoughts on wheel of time
Odd when the author was such an douchebag. At least the first books.
Is ASOIAF grimdark, or just pragmatic? The "good" characters believe in a social order buttressed by tradition, but never questioned what the foundations of those traditions were. Well, it turned out the social order was upheld by the threat of dragons burning down your castle, and when the dragons went away, it was only a matter of time until someone realized the rules has changed. Ironically, the ones who upended the old social order (Robert Baratheon and Eddard Stark) are the first ones to be burned by the decision.
@@digitaljanus There's some pragmatism, (for example, with House Tyrell's marriage flexibility), but there's a big dose of "everyone is horribly flawed, and each flaw will have ruinous consequences". The Starks are morally good, but hopelessly naive in ways that cause great harm. The Boltons and Lannisters are largely incapable of self control. The Targaryens are way too violent. Stannis is extremely inflexible. And in each case, the flaws doom the characters to catastrophe. Pragmatism would solve a lot of issues in the world of ASOIAF, but it is sadly rare.
I wouldn't classify either as Grimdark. A Song of Ice and Fire is a bit grittier and darker than Wheel of Time, but far from Grimdark.
I'm really enjoying your explainers. Some of these terms I've used inaccurately, or heard used in a way that I felt was wrong, but couldn't put my finger on it. Low/high fantasy being settings, while grimdark being story type, was a distinction I hadn't put together so clearly.
"To Be A man in such times is to be one amongst untold billions. It is to live in the cruelest and most bloody regime imaginable. These are the tales of those times. Forget the power of technology and science, for so much has been forgotten, never to be re-learned. Forget the promise of progress and understanding, for in the grim dark future there is only war. There is no peace amongst the stars, only an eternity of carnage and slaughter, and the laughter of thirsting gods."
Dan Abnett
Sounds familily friendly😁
@@Quasimodo-mq8tw Well, somebody did honest-to-God look at this setting and say "Hey, we should do a line of kid's books here!"
@@kylekonop4801 I know😆....
@@kylekonop4801wait what? Can you get me their titles? I want to read that xD
@@stealthretarius9972 Google "Warhammer Adventures".
A wonderful Grimdark series is the "Poppy Wars" series by R.F. Kuang.
❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤ the sheer amount of hopelessness in grimdark just doesn't work for me but i'm glad someone is having fun....
Same here. If I want that kind of vibe, I can just go and read Amnesty International reports. There is enough grimdark in the real world already; I don't need to have it in my fiction too.
The point isn't (or shouldn't be, anyway) grim for the sake of grim, but setting the stage for characters to do extraordinary thing instead of everything else.
I have finally figured out from this information that my daughter's writing style is Grimdark! Thank you very much!
Okay! I'm posting this comment on your newest video because that gives it the best chance of being seen. Until exactly five days ago I had no idea you existed. A co-worker who is, by the way, and actual honest to goodness book goblin (she has stated her dearest ambition is to live inside a library) sent me a link to one of your TH-cam shorts. You have made me laugh so hard over the past five days that now I simply have no choice but to order a copy of one of your books and give it a read and I don't even normally LIKE fantasy stories. By the way, I've been yelling to everyone who will listen for the past ten years that MOST writers today in books, movies, and television, have no CLUE how to write female characters . . . for the exact same reasons you mentioned in one of your videos. Female characters in stories today are robbed of the classic hero's journey. People don't understand how to write characters anymore. A strong character (male or female) isn't strong because they are perfect at everything and never need help from anyone. Strong characters overcome their own weaknesses and shortcomings to do what needs to be done. They learn through their failures how to BE the hero. It's this journey that makes them relatable and likable. Because we see them struggle so we're cheering for them to succeed. You take a character who's written as just someone who knows everything and is better at everything than everyone, well they don't come across as strong, they just come across as self-absorbed and arrogant. WHY can't more writers understand this? Anyway, I've said far to much for a youtube comment. All i really wanted to say was thank you for the videos I found them very entertaining and if your books show half as much wit an humor then you've got yourself a new fan. Have a great day.
Grimdark for me is when the Reader needs to struggle to find and hold on to hope for the world.
the characters can set out and do what they need to and succeed, yet we as the readers know that this is not enough. This might never be enough, and whatever victory was had is more bittersweet than what it seems for the characters.
Grimdark fantasy doesn’t necessarily have to have depressing endings , in fact sometimes they have better more hopeful endings . Also not all characters are evil in it , quite a few actually have morally good characters surviving in a harsh world while still keeping their morals and in that is the struggle that makes these books amazing like the first law trilogy sure quite a few are broken people but a good number also stay true to themselves no matter how dark the journey is.
That sounds to me like gritty, not grimdark.
@@ZekeRaiden they often are both but I see it a lot in grim dark books like asoiaf and the first law
@@jennialexander1262 I mean...ASOIAF ends with everyone losing and the world being generally pretty sucky, based on all the complaints I've heard from the TV show.
@@ZekeRaidenyeah the tv show butchered the arks but the books are better and have given us better characters and fuller arks
@@ZekeRaidenalthough even in a game of thrones the good guys do win
Dr. Google sagt: "Grimdark ist ein Subgenre der spekulativen Fiktion mit einem Ton, Stil oder Setting, das besonders dystopisch, amoralisch und gewalttätig ist."
Ich muss gestehen, daß Grimdark nicht mein Genre ist. Diese Hoffnungslosigkeit ist erdrückend. Ich mag es, trotz aller Schwierigkeiten, Hoffnung zu haben. Mein Bookgoblin ist hoffnungsvoll. 😆
Ich denke viele Grimdark Settings spielen damit wo jemand seine Hoffnung hernimmt. Mein liebungs wenn auch etwas unpassendes Beispiel ist Warhammer Fantasy: Es ist eine Dreckige und teil Elendige Welt aber das Leben ist immer noch Lebenswert. Die Welt der Menschen(und der Rest)WIRD mathematisch und logisch Klar eines nicht so fernen Tages vom Chaos verschlungen werden. Aber wenn man genug dagegen antritt, vieleicht nicht in dieser Generation. Not Today! Eine Sichtweise währe auch, in einer Welt in der nichts Sinn hat ist es dir möglich(unt nötig) das du entscheidest was Sinn hat. Was du Wert beimist und wofür du strebst.
Die traurige Ironie von Warhammer 40k ist, dass es Hoffnung gibt, diese aber sehr schwer zu finden ist und mehrere Charaktere UND ihre jeweilige Fraktion braucht, um ihre Köpfe von der großen schwarzen Singularität, die ihr eigener Hintern ist, loszureißen und länger als 6 Stunden (oder realistischer 160 Jahre, da dies Warhammer ist und ALLES aus irgendeinem Grund Jahrhunderte und Jahrhunderte zu dauern scheint, bis es fertig ist) zusammenzuarbeiten. Es gibt VIELE Charaktere, die WIRKLICH ein besseres Wesen haben, aber alles um sie herum tut sein Bestes, um sie zu brechen und zu irgendeiner Art von Bösem zu verderben (z. B. neigt das Dogma des Imperiums dazu, Menschen dazu zu bringen, Chaos oder Genestealers oder sogar die Sklaverei der Xenos zu suchen).
Es kommt WIRKLICH zu dem Punkt, an dem die Dinge Grim Derp werden, wie ich gehört habe (im Grunde steigern die Leute in Warhammer ihre Grausamkeit und Rücksichtslosigkeit auf solch cartoonhafte und wahnsinnige Weise, dass nicht einmal die Düsterkeit des Settings das rechtfertigen kann und es klar wird, dass die Autoren nur der Dramatik wegen übertreiben. XD)
@@DeathMessenger1988 Guten Morgen. Mein Warhammer Experte meinte gerade, das Warhamner 40k extrem überzeichnet ist und es auch so sein soll. Man darf es nicht zu ernst nehmen. Er meinte gerade, dass es auch ein Qualitätsunterschied zwischen den Büchern gibt. Daher gibt es Momente der Hoffnung nur in den guten Büchern. 😁 Er mag die Bücher von Dan Abnett.
Great explanation. I highly recommend the Black Company books for Fantasy Grimdark.
If you prefer Comedic Fantasy Grimdark, check out the Nightside series by Green. Grimdark, taken to the extreme, can become extremely funny in a dark, tapdancing across the graves of all main characters while yodeling cheeky tunes way :)
Could you give reference to a book which is what you said in your last sentence? Is the Night side series like one?
_Love_ Nightside!
@@timarooq2278 From "The Good, the Bad, and the Uncanny":
"City gents in smart city suits stood close together in their proud little cliques, discussing ritual sacrifice and the Financial Times shares index. There were also plenty of the usual creatures, trying to pass themselves off as human, with varying degrees of success. No-one ever says anything to them, it's the thought that counts. A few yards away, a group of mimes beat up a pickpocket with their invisible mallets. Just another day in the Nightside."
:)
Watch Overly Sarcastic Productions trope talk about Grimdark for more
Always watch OSP!
It’s okay, but Red’s overwhelming dislike for Grimdark hurts the presentation.
@@jamespryor5967 at least she makes her biases known and clear
gritty but remaining optimistic and hopeful is my jam! hopepunk for the win! lol
Could you pls make a video of romance gemeres discussing menustration
Btw love ur vids❤❤
I have to disagree with the notion that Farseer is grimdark. It its gritty, but not cynical. It is ultimately optimistic. SPOILERS There are even deus ex machinas to make stuff turn out for the better. Granted, Fitz & Fool trilogy was beyond dark, but it had a hartfelt ending.
Your videos have been really helpful for describing both books I've read and the books I'm writing. For example: I now know that I mainly write High Fantasy with some gritty elements! And my reading taste tends to be much the same!
Some days I fight my Demons, others we just cuddle....
Great example of the grimdark genre is Glen Cooks "The Black Company" books.
Grim dark was decently summed up by OSP as being “more of a vibe than a genre”. At the end of the day, it’s a bad place where things don’t feel like they’re meaningfully improving, often populated by characters trying to achieve something less related to good and evil. Cormac McCarthy wrote extremely grimdark books that people don’t think of as really being that, with Blood Meridian following a nihilistic and cruel scalping gang in the American west, and The Road following a man trying to provide a safe place for his son to grow up after the nuclear apocalypse
This seems like it might be your kind of thing:
7th Time Loop: The Villainess Enjoys a Carefree Life Married to Her Worst Enemy
it seems to be enemies to lovers in the way you describe, at least from the protagonist's viewpoint.
Sorry it's not related to this video apart from temporally, but I've just seen a short for it,
it seems that the plot begins with the protagonist in a time loop. Every time she dies at the hands of the evil emperor, she loops back in time, and can live out her life again.
six times she has lived, fought a war with the emperor, and died. this 7th time, she's decided to take the loop off, by marrying the evil emperor, and just having a nice time as empress.
I've seen one short from it where she is training with the young emperor, and the starting plot, and added it to my "to watch" list
I guessing the Poppy Wars will come under Grimdark as well.
That's exactly what I was thinking of! I freaking love Poppy War but it's dark af.
Given what the protagonist does at the end of Book 1, absolutely.
@@digitaljanus gods, I'm still trying to get over that. I'm gonna order the second part today, can't wait to see what comes next.
I always imagined grimdark would be more edgy... I read the farseer trilogy, and while the ending ruined my day and possibly my week, there were plenty of nice points. I think the majority of bad things that happen in that series happen as consequences of bad choices by flawed characters. I'm thinking of the main character's plot, especially in book 2 and three, because he's a teenager and has some maturity to gain.
What do you guys think?
I've never really looked into grimdark before as a concept.
That's actually the one series she listed where I don't see it. I wouldn't consider Farseer to be Grimdark, unless you measure Grimdark by the terrible things that happen to the main character. I don't think the world as a whole is gritty enough. But I can see how that's subjective.
Info: good.
Shirt: epic.
I'd like to suggest that at some point you do a video dividing books/series into their fantasy genres like it was a tier list😊.
I'd love to see where you'd put some of my favorites ❤
Accidentally read my first grimdark series about 2 years ago. It was Three Dark Crowns. I kept hoping it would get more positive, or thinking something surely wouldn't happen.... Book after book, I lost hope. Then I read the novella, Queens of Fennbirn, and it was the final nail in the coffin. Had to take a break from reading after that to process! Grimdark is definitely not for me lol
The Tale of Malus Darkblade is probably my favorite Grimdark seriea from Warhammer.
The titular character Malus is, as one might guess, a villain protagonist. He's a Dark Elf noble who really is only distinguished from his people (who are kinkilling, treacherous slavers and murders as demanded by their culture) in that he has a slightly stricter sense of honor (in that he prefers not to doublecross someone until they doublecross him first).
The FIRST chapter of the first book made me reconsider if I wanted to read it because of the graphic psychological torture that Malus inflicts on a human slave that was recently captured. Malus most definitely gets what is coming to him and is a vile person, he just tends to be less vile or at least more competent than the antagonists he tends to go up against.
The Grimdark, Nobledark, Noblebright, Grimbright typology is valid and I will die on this hill.
Many a song of ice and fire have left me both grim and dark.
Very informative. You should look for author Stacy James Meadows. Anyway great video. ❤
Interesting. I don't think I was even aware this was a specific genre. I've always assumed there's genuine hope, not false hope in any fictional tale, otherwise, what's the point? Why invest in a story where you already know it's just misery all the way down. Why not just watch the news or true crime stories? I don't expect every story to end happily for everybody but I at least have to believe that it could have. And I need it to end happily for somebody. Apparently with grimdark, that's not the case. It definitely explains why I've been confused by exactly what some stories were trying to do. I will definitely double check the genre before I get invested in characters all doomed by the narrative next time.
Omg I was seeing this term all over and I kept reading it as "GRIDmark"... then I heard you say it and did a double take :'D NOW it makes sense.
Let's talk about it😈
Of course, it doesn't help that different people have slightly-different to widely-different ideas about what does or does not constitute grimdark. A lot of people don't seem to have a definition that they put into words, it's just what mood they get from that story. Thus, you can have a story that some people say is totally grimdark, and some say is more 'grimderp' (another thing which has too many definitions, but for a lot of people means 'badly-written attempt at grimdark'), and others say that this same story is really not that grim or dark.
The science/fantasy milieu, Warhammer 40,000, is grimdark.
(Before I caught it, I had misspelled grimdark as grindark.)
This makes me wonder if the count of monte cristo counts as grindark.
The last words of the book are "wait and hope" so Idk
I am OBSESSED with that sea peoples tank top, where do I get one??
And since the confusion had happened, do you think that high-low fantasy should be a scale of its own, independent from other labels? Like, "Grimdark" says nothing about how much magic is there, but says that this magic is most likely bad, uncontrollable, corrupting or dangerous in some other way.
To me (and I'm confused and worried that I don't see many people seeing it this way, as of late), the point of grimdarkness isn't that everything is shit, but that extraordinary people can do extraordinary things, for good and ill, *despite* everything being shit. That X happened because the prople involved were determined (and clinically insane, but shhhhhh xD) enough to make it happen.
Also, I'll die on the hill that *current* 40k (7th edition onwards, more or less) isn't even as remotely as grimdark as it was in its previous edition (Badab War anyone?!)
Funny, I never thought of Hobb as grimdark! I’d say grimdark is something that is so good, but only if the timing is right for you. After reading all the basic high fantasy, there just is not a lot of new good things around. That’s when you go to grimdark. I’d never have liked it in the beginning of my fantasy journey. I love R Scott Bakker and KJ Parker and it’s really hard to get darker than Bakker. (While Abercrombie, for me is just meh)
Another book from this sub genre of fantasy is Empire of the Vampire by Jay Kristoff
The kind of thing I aspire to write. I just need a more in depth understanding first.
The Black Company novels.
Would the locked tomb series be considered grimdark?
I fully categorized it as grimdark for the first two books, Gideon and Harrow. Specially Harrow.
But Nona, even though it left me in tears, it also gave me such a warm feeling throughout and the end didn't feel hopeless at all. Bad things happened sure, but idk, it didn't *feel* bad. (I'm lying ofc, I sobbed like a child but i did see a tiny little light at the end of tunnel)
Modern fans: We're not like those old fogies with their heroes and crusades. We know how dark and ugly the universe really is.
HP Lovecraft: You sure about that?
So Berserk perfectly fits this!
I’ve scrolled the comments a bit and no one else I saw mentioned the Hunger Games books? I feel like they fit grimdark - anyone else?
It's not it very well have been but it still has a core of hope
4 minutes ago? I really am stalking you lol
I can see why people might see Witcher as grimdark, but as for myself... Wouldn't really classify it as such. As bittersweet the ending is, it is also quite hopeful - because something ends, _something begins._
I'm not sure grimdark has a fully-agreed-upon definition, so this is just my opinion. I think grimdark is to some degree either a value judgement or at least implies something about the author's writing process. Like other people have pointed out, the term is from Warhammer 40k, which varies between taking itself seriously and being a parody of overly dark media. So a lot of the time when people call something "grimdark" they mean it's dark for the sake of being dark, to the point where it's being compared to a parody of dark media. Like, Doomsday Book by Connie Willis is extremely dark, but I wouldn't call it grimdark because while the situation is terrible, the bad things that happen are logical, not a result of the author having it out for the characters. I haven't read it so I'm not sure of the tone, but from what I've read about it something like Rememberance of Earth's Past by Liu Cixin might be grimdark. The laws of physics in that series are specifically constructed to make it impossible for the protagonists to permanently win. It's not taking a bad situation and showing the results, it's specifically contriving a world where good outcomes are impossible. To me, stories like this are uninteresting - if the setting is contrived, the whole thing feels like the narrator is unreliable.
Lots of things can be contrived: events, settings, characters, or some combination:
For example, deus ex machina, sudden twists that don't fit the established story, characters making decisions that don't fit their characterization, settings that make it impossible to succeed or fail, characters having powers that fit the exact problem of the story.
I'd usually classify grimdark as a setting thing, but it might also count as grimdark if it's a bunch of random events conspiring to make good outcomes impossible.
It's not always a bad thing for parts of a story to be a bit contrived, but you sort of have to be willing to look past it for the sake of the story.
The best of Grimdark will have a certain quality to the ending. It is sad or bittersweet but a form of low hopefulness. I think to the best of the Gaunts Ghosts series. The worst of the series is when they fully embrace GrimDark and the best ends when they say "Its shit but together its better". Basically, for the series in mention, When Tona Criid husband, Caffran, dies, it is a low point. In fact Tona is more or less a good metric for good and bad GrimDark endings.
It is what seperates GrimDark from GrimDumb where the dark elements become so dumb as to become meaningless. See Dead Men Walking for GrimDumb
Love your shirt
So Fallout in a nutshell. Even if four tries to show people regaining anything you spoilers still lose your son and in three you still are alone cause your dad is dead and your vault wont let you back
Hi Elizabeth have you ever read the paranormal romance book 16 souls
Forth Wing. I will not be explaining. 😅
"The gods are cruel, the chosen one has failed and the savior is a false prophet." I like this as a summary of GrimDark, but isn't the chosen one the savior? If not, then what was the chosen one chosen for?
I wouldn't classify Farseer trilogy as grimdark, but than again pretty much everyone has their own definition of what grimdark is and everytime the term is mentioned everyone argues about the definition. In my definition it's the overall lack of hope that makes the story grimdark
It starts out as more general Fantasy, but the way they slowly torture to death a certain very young character, then the whole process of "forging" people probably qualifies.
@@Hrafnskald It's dark, I'm not arguing that it isn't, but it doesn't necessarily mean grimdark
So, if we have an arc that is entirely grimdark as described, but high fantasy in another character’s arc… what happens?
And now it makes me wonder if my story Operation ZEIT considered as Grimdark due to situations of every characters in Metaphora through time.
In 16th century medieval where the only Islamic medieval kingdom getting dystopian situation where the adventurers will be hunted to kill due to rumors of they responsibled of rising crime cases, immoral cult schemes, attempt to bring a demon to the world and spreading plague.
In 1881 steampunk Victoria + Wild West, the genocide bring both losses the white colonials and indigenous tribes. Then the white colonials brought steampunk monsters alive, so are the indigenous tribes summoned supernatural creatures to fight back, bringing more conflicts when they were planning to stop the war.
In 2181 cyberpunk, the republic is getting bunch problems such as political conflicts regarding a lot of issues such as lacking of main utility and energy sources and overpopulation, but the businessmen as part of the government scheme blinded everyone with restless entertainment to cover them up. Without realising, the mutant monsters would show up to take advantage of the situation.
No matter good or bad, everyone will have consenquences.
The male leads who being accidental time traveller want to find way back home to their hometown, solving their quests and missions but they ended up unable to find way back home due to time paradox, and worst they turned out being time traveler criminal themselves.
The female leads who wants to find happily ever after in dystopian kingdom unable to make one on their own. They lose their home, family and honor, even they ended up developed their villain side in themselves.
The antagonists who travelled back to past to change the perspective of fairytale and DnD adventures to force everyone to remind the future generation minds about their childhood had been filled with lies, creating a disaster that would caused permanent time paradox and war between universes. They awakened the demon from underworld where their plan to change the world would gone wrong. The demon outsmarted them and make the kingdom fall into their hands.
The side characters no matter they are peasants from medieval fantasy who waits for the savior, people from victorian era who wants the war ended and gain independence, or citizens of cyberpunk republic want their eyes open to reveal the truth - they ended up losing hope when whatever they wished for is fake, even the time paradox caused the demon taking over the whole timelines and being unstoppable
Warhammer is definitely Grimdark. It's where the name "Grimdark" comes from; a far future not only grim but also dark, where there is only war... 😂
So... Is Grimdark Romance a thing?
Could be. Nightside is generally grimdark mixed with humor, but it does have a really long, drawn out slowburn (12 books), culminating in a wedding that's kind of sweet, in a twisted, horrifying way :)
I see it as basically the Tough Mudder of romance settings. "Here is a world designed at every level to sap you of hope, compassion, and empathy. Now go fall in love."
The reason I asked, is because it seems to me that romance readers fundamentally want to be reassured of a happy ending, and that is the one thing grimdark readers don't want. So does that mean its fundamentally impossible to be both?
I mean, you're certainly pushing the envelope, but genres have always been more of what you call guidelines, and the concept is worth the attempt in my eyes.
Also, grimdark can have happy-ish endings, just not happily ever after. Like Elizabeth said:
Phyrric victories
Bittersweet victories
Conditional happy endings
Where would you place The Dresden Files on this Low/Grimdark/High Fantasy scale? (Yes I get that Grimdark is more of a separate thing, I'm still curious.)
What's the difference between Grimdark and Dark Fantasy? In my mind they seem like different things, but I can't define it😅
Edit: is it that Dark Fantasy is more tragic than brutal?
I only recognise 30/40K and Prince of Nothing as being grimdark.
Is there others?
Basically shadow slave
So Grimdark is just real life in a fantasy/sci fi setting? Or did i just tell on myself 😅
Perhaps, because grim dark doesn’t depend on the setting or the circumstances it depends on the storyteller. There is a lot of literature that came out of people who lived through World War Two for example, some of those stories are sure gritty, and have terrible things in them, but ultimately are redemptive, and there are others that showcase how the depravity of a few can undermine the most innocent and pure among us. As they say happy ending, depends on where you end the tail and how you view the road that gets you there.
Well, Grimdark is certain parts of real life in a fantasy/sci-fi setting.
In reality we can also see some progress, there are people who turn things for the better at least in some parts of the world. But there are also parts of the world and of history that are sheer hell. And the problem is that there is no way for folks like us to prevent stuff like that from happening over and over again.
I recommend Lauro Martines' Furies, a social history of the wars of late medieval and early modern Europe, and see how George R.R. Martin's novels are Disneyland compared to the real thing. 😂
I want your Shirt! :D
Grimdark iw basocly the original stories disney turned hopefull and magical
Can dystopian fall into grimdark?
Dystopian is a setting Grimdark is a theme, hunger games is dystopian but if it was Grimdark Katniss would have died early and pointlessly
I thought it was
High Fantasy: Medieval Europe with Castles and Magic
Grimdark: Medieval Europe with Castles and Magic (But rape happens)
And to think I was grimdark the whole time
I like your shirt
I think the Mortal Kombat franchise was mostly Grimm dark. Not super well read on the lore
So like, you're reading, and you're just like, this is *not* going to end well... 😂
As an editor in the publishing industry from 2001 to 2016, these videos make me cringe with the inaccuracies (just like some of the creators that keep calling "Romantasy" a new genre).
In simple terms:
High Fantasy=Everything is made up. (Lands, races, magic, creatures, political systems)
Low Fantasy=Happens in the normal world (historic or contemporary), but the storyline is made up. Usually involving an underground/hidden supernatural society or race (ex. Dresden Files)
Grimdark=Low OR High, but moral compasses are pretty shady. Grimdark can absolutely have a happy-ish ending, but it comes at great cost.
And ASOIAF is absolutely the opposite of a Low Fantasy, please stop telling people this. GRRM would cringe with me. At least call it a Low-Magic High Fantasy, which is a term industry people have utilized for decades😅
1984
Lol I wear a lot of grey and I'm an artist who uses wild sci fi land scape colors every day . . .blah blah blah
Are you a little color blind ? Am I in a long line of people who asked that question-
. . . didn't think so. Thanks for making videos.
(Male color blindness)
dune messiah is very grimdark
So what is dark fantasy then? I thought that was dark fantasy.
Are Helldivers 2 grimdark?
For instance Halo is a grimdark story, at least to halo 2.
To me personally. Grimdark itself is just not the genre for me. Its just not that good personally
So i know this is a channel focused a lot about romance books but would anyone be willing to read a book about a Quadi Platonic Relationship
For this who dont know:
A quasi platonuc relationship is a commited friendship between individuals who are not romantically interested in each other. Its not friends with benefits as it is still a deep emotional bond just not one based on romantic feelings.
Beschreibst du da nicht eine Freundschaft? Wenn du ein Buch über eine Freundschaft schreiben möchtest, dann tu das.
@@Makira912 Ich habe mich nur gefragt, wie viele Liebesroman-Leser tatsächlich ein Buch mit einem anderen Beziehungsschwerpunkt kaufen würden
@@electricorcagaming Ich fürchte nicht viele. Denn wenn jemand einen Liebesroman lesen möchte, dann muss da die (sexuelle) Anziehungskraft zu spüren sein. Im Oktober kommt ein Buch raus, in dem eine Person Asexuell ist und sich verknallt hat und sich mit Händen und Füßen gegen diese Beziehung wehrt. Einfach aus dem Grund, weil die andere Person nicht Asexuell ist. Aber selbst in diesem Roman erwarte ich eine gewisse Anziehungskraft die über bloße Freundschaft hinaus geht. Wenn du das Buch als Entstehung einer Freundschaft oder als Found Family deklarierst, wird es bestimmt gerne gelesen. Auch Romance Leser brauchen Abwechslung. 😁
I avoid grimdark for sure. I wrestle with enough demons day-to-day. Don’t need to do so in my fiction.
Hear, hear. I now avoid a lot of vampire romances because some can be pretty brutal with psychological and physical violence. I just don't feel good during and after reading them.
My reality is wrestling demons all day every day 365 days until I stop breathing. (I think most people's reality is full of deamons.) Why? WWHHYYYYY would I read a book where I must wrestle deamons where I can do the same with romance, adventure, fantasy, unrealistic imagination.... blah blah and lots of blahs...?
I really like grimdark fantasy, I can also recommend the poppy war if anyone is searching for something unhinged. I also plan on reading the song of ice and fire and the Witcher, so thanks for the new ideas to read 🫶🏻