I used to use these plates on large construction sites for fall arrest/fall restraint applications. It is far easier to teach people to follow a single diagram than to teach multiple knots.
It’s prob part of SOP which has to be followed so workers don’t die. I’ve seen people get hurt from ignoring sop. It’s there to avoid dangerous mistakes and maintain quality
I'm a tower climbing safety and rescue instructor, and a former safety inspector. I use termination plates in class precisely because they are NOT knots, and they have pictures on them. Many climbers think they know knots better than they do. That said, I don't generally use them myself when not teaching. I've always taught that they retain about 80-85% of the rope's strength, so that's nice. One concern I had was whether the 12mm rope you used was static/super static, or whether it was dynamic. Most termination plates are specifically designed to be used with static ropes, since your shock pack absorbs the fall. The strain of the rope may affect results. Love your stuff, keep learning! EDIT: One reason that people use them is to maintain a higher rating on their ropes to keep safety guys happy. For instance, if I have a 7,000lb rope and tie a figure 8, it would be hard to argue that I'm above the 5,000lb required by OSHA/ANSI. But using a termination plate I can argue I still have a 5k capacity.
This is EXACTLY the application I was thinking of. Maintaining the sweet sweet 5Kn ansi/osha/NFPA require. Actually, NFPA may want a 2:1 safety factor iirc but I don’t remember to be precise. But yeah, in industrial or rescue settings that 10% can be quite a bit. Especially when you’re already dealing with 12mm rope. I guess the counter argument to be had here though is that if there’s ANY other knot in the working part of your system these plates are pretty useless. Though I’d like to see how they perform where they’re anchoring like a z rig or other mechanical advantage system.
If you are working under 1926 (presuming tower climbing falls under this) the OSHA requirement is 3000lbs under the positioning standard. This requires a maximum fall distance of 2’ which is usually applicable to most rope systems, certainly any methods using direct suspension.
@@adamwood9144 we often use them for vertical lifelines, aka fall arrest. We also use a two rope method, one for fall arrest and one for positioning. It's easier to just use 5k for both, so they don't have to figure out which is which. Also, we use them for rescue, so the extra capacity is nice. All that said, we usually just use 5k ropes with factory terminations.
@Jamoni1 using a 2 rope system is great, no requirement under 1926 to do so. As such not sure the backup has to conform to any standard at all. If you assume it does good work practices should keep the max fall to 2' and comply with the work Positioning standard. To be honest 1926 is pretty basic and doesn't mention anything specifically about knots, force multipliers, increased loads during rescue etc. I work to IRATA standards which are deemed compliant. We use 11mm low stretch which the manufacturer supplies an MBS for a fig 8 (approx 20kn/4400lbs) so well in excess of the 3000lbs required under 1926 work positioning.
@Jamoni1 if you are working to 1910 it gets more complicated as there are specific requirements for rope descent systems in the walking, working surfaces section. Also there's a max height of 300' that you can't exceed without proving that an alternative method is not achievable (which is a weird requirement and smells of lobbying to me).
I have no intention to go climbing, or anything that involves my body hanging from anything really, but I love this channel. I find the engineering well done and breaking things in a scientific way is great. I am also amazed at just how strong these things are.
I totally appreciate your comment. However, a comment by another participant at a technical class I was once in will always stick with me. "I don't like ladders, you can't fall off of a rope."
Im a stunt rigger in the film industry. We use something simular, a "Gold tail", although it's not used as a rope termination but rather a friction deceleration device for when a performer has a long fall (I have been on a 12m decel) to decelerate him before impact with the mats. The gold tail also has a useful feature: the holes in the device can be opened along the long side, using a sliding aluminum gate, allowing you to thread the rope into the device without feeding the tail through. The gates are then closed and secured by tightening wing nuts. The information you provide is extremely useful when considering a stunt rigging situation, thank you for the great work! Especially when considering how much we work with Dynema and Tech 12.
So I’m a highrise window cleaner and we use knots, we are currently on a building where the restoration workers are using the termination plates(no knots anywhere). It has to come down to how you were taught, both ways “bomber” in these applications. Our knots are decent only on rope decent system and the other crew is using swing stage for ascent and decent. While ascending, the weight in KN can go off the charts if the equipment catches lips on the building.
- and do the other guys have a backup, or are they on a single rope?? (asking for a friend.) A device like this can always have more wraps around the body - eliminating any likely pull through (cyclic loading and unloading is the real problem there - a stopper knot is always a useful - dead stop) - while ensuring the ability to untie without a knife - though the bends (first few are the critical ones) in this plate seems to be too sharp. I would imagine a device should be - at least - as thick as the largest diameter intended to use with the largest radius - single sided with relief on the back edge, for a unidirectional use.
Worked in the cell tower industry where we did a decent amount of rigging work. We had a few of these laying around and used them for something completely different. On cell towers we need to send tools and bags of equipment up sometimes many at a time. We would clip this to the factory terminated end of a rope and then clip as many bags to the various holes as possible. This made it easier than clipping straight to the rope termination because once it was in the air the carabiners (for the sometimes very heavy bags) would sit on top of each other making it difficult to release them from the rope.
Sounds like you are describing a rigging plate. As you describe It would be easy to use a termination plate as a rigging plate, there are also a wide variety of shapes and configurations available.
I've used one as a termination point for a zip line in arbor care. We don't tie it off just use the friction created to control the load till it hits the ground. Makes for super easy reset.
Reminds me of some arborist gear thats mainly used to add friction in riggning systems as a breaking mechanism. Notch safe bloc for example. Would love to see more arborist stuff tested on the channel
I would like to see some number about ohm. However I believe this will be pain to test comprehensively because resistance applied by this device strongly depends on angle of device and rope to the belayer and climber.
YES! I outweigh my wife and most consistent belayer by 80lbs. She has belayed me on some SPICY leads in the city of rocks, and we are currently saving up for an ohm. I’d love to see this test.
@@surikatga they could do a set of tests in the gym and drop tower to get a range of real world results, then use the drop tower to find the absolute limits of the device
Well this is fun, I told Taylor about termination plates after using them for tower work and can say that while they might be knife knots when pulled to breaking strength, the ease of adjustment after a 5-7kn load vs a fig 8 is very useful for ropeswingmoab. Do I think they’re useful for everyone, no. But in specific situations they are definitely nice to have. Was I fooled on the amount of strength retention they had over a knot? Yes, but it’s good to know that they still help give us a bit more of a safety ratio. Great video and happy to feel directly targeted in a TH-cam video for once.
Seems to me that if you are running a line under part of itself that gets cinched down that is a knot. How different is that than a clovehitch or lashing? Both of which are considered knots.
Cinching down don't affect the strength. It's the sharp bends that the ropes don't like. The termination plate keeps all the sharp bends out of the rope
You guys should have them put the plates on extreme gear but just have them out of stock 100% of the time, then for the checkout button is says "Checkout: How to tie a knot for FREE" which is just a link to a video on how to tie the basic knots.
We use a similar product on anchors for access to residential roofs during emergencies. The product we use is called a goldtail, and is specifically designed as a friction device to perform controlled lowers - we use chainsaws on roofs in the middle of storms, so it’s pretty necessary that we can get someone off a roof if something happens to them while they’re up there. The goldtail is much thicker, and has sliding gates on the side to put the rope in; no threading the end through. The extra thickness means the edges can also have a larger radius, so the friction should be spread over a larger area. They work well for our use with static ropes that are unlikely to get shock loaded. I guess my main point is, there aren’t a replacement for a knot (thought this particular product seems to be, weirdly).
I do have one for my 11mm static rope when terminating. I rig per the picture you use as well but throw a simple knot in the tail after the second pass under. I also use it as a stacked rigging plate for multiple points to the front eye. Sure didn't pay $50.00 for it though. My plate also appears thicker and also has better rounding of the holes too.
Reminds me of the old rappel racks, but w no moving parts. We would sometimes terminate systems with those racks and were always told "it was close to 100%" rope strength, as compared to ending w a fig8-bight.
Major difference between these & rap racks is that the racks are designed to offer continuously-adjustable friction while these are permanently pre-set friction. As for retained strength, somebody was pulling your chain-likely 80% (best) for a standard-sized rack. Only Tensionless Hitches will retain nearly 100% rope strength.
Yes! I’m so glad you made this video. OSHA makes people use termination plates. They are so confusing and dumb. A knot is just as strong when it’s done properly. Termination plates are bureaucratic hot garbage. They should not exist.
That reminded me of Kong Slyde, Kong Kisa and all those adjustable plates where some are designed to slip too. Some of those can have a place when adjustment point is needed but I'd probably never trust any of those more than a knot, just to be safe.
Would really like to see figure 8 to bowline comparison. In my industry we used bowlines any time we have to haul heavy loads specifically because of how easy they are to untie. I'd love to see loading them to close to failure and then attempting to untie the fused knot. And yes, I am aware they are not as secure but once you have a static load applied, the knot isnt coming untied if the load is never unweighted. We also only use in non life critical applications.
I prefer the Shizll Spiderplate with an increased bend radius. A four hole rigging plate or three hole pulley also grips well without knots. I have pulled trees over with my truck on Amsteel using this method. The line comes out with relative ease and isn't damaged. I would like to see some break tests with the Spiderplate, DMM Rigger pulley, and four hole rigging plate.
I might use them as a termination for standing rigging on a sailboat. The ability to adjust the tension is a improvement over standard turnbuckles and I appears easier to adjust as no tools are needed.
@@hypophalangial no I have two boats that have cable wire standing rig. Since none of them see high abrasion it makes sense to not need wire. As Superior abrasion resistance is The only benefit to wire
i think the biggest deciding factor is the bend radius. just like how you test with the bollard setup because of the larger diameter if say you made one that was 2 times as thick i think you would get results closer to the bollard test. maybe even that 90% mark. increasing the radius means more contact area increasing friction like on the bollard it also drastically improves the bend radius of the line itself due to not having to make a sharp turn dispersing the load over a larger surface. another thought is to sand blast a matte finish so its smooth but still textured.
loved watching the slippage in the knots and plates on these and particularly with the bite, I would love to see how various rope suspension ties work on single lines and/or doubled-over lines particularly comparing jute, hemp, hempex and the colourful poly bondage knots have you done it or would need examples etc?
I'd be curious to see how a blocked fig8 fares against this plate with regards to % of breaking strength seeing as the rope usually breaks at the first bend (whether it's on a knot or with such a plate), I would think that simply having the rope blocked in some way on a steel fig8 introduces a large enough radius on the first bend to give you the same slightly higher break force... but obviously seeing it on a break test machine would be nice
Actually most suppliers of arborist gear in my country try to sell you stuff like this... A piece of aluminium with a hole (or two if it's very fancy) and like a meter of rope tied to it in some mysterious way and now it's suddenly a sloopy-doopy-sling-thing and costs 400€ waooowwww
I think where this might shine is as the top point for a slung stretcher with a couple of carabiners clipping to the termination plate for ropes from the stretchers rail - that would give an easy method to free the sides of the stretcher for placing a person into or taking them out of it. It had a lot of rope creep through it though as it tensioned up. 🤔
The hardware(wire shoe that clamps onto wire) i use on powerlines for catching/deadending wire has a rigging eye built in for attaching hoists or rope blocks. For the guy who uses those as terminations for his rope swings who will re-rig and tighten them im curious to know how he does the rerig/tightening and if an additional offset rigging eye on those would help him or not.
I have used an imitation SMC large rigging plate to set up a 2:1 with a pulley and biner in one end and the end of the rope zigzagged through the other finger holes. I never got around to putting a spliced eye with thimble in the last hole. That would be kind of neat hanging on the wall, Of course, the pulleys should have rotating side plates. I was never really comfortable with thimbles under heavy load. If they are made from alloy steel, they may crack, revealing a sharp cutting edge, and if they are malleable, they may fold and leave a very small radius to stress the rope. It seems that these safety devices only work well where they are not needed.
Used to get bite on middle of rope on safety line in power plants ggives you the ability to lower someone to the ground if their pick failed or they fell out for some reason, needed the ability to lower safety rope to the ground but also the ability to lower them down if they were near the top most of this work was inside a power plant boiler.
I've seen similar products used to add friction at an anchor to reduce the 2 to 1 at the top. I would be curious to see how much it would reduce the force.
I know I've done termination plate type things with theater fly systems that are more temporary (so no lock mechanism and usually less options for counterweighting) that you still have to get at a rather precise height that you might not be able to get a figure eight hooked to something to work for
Last time i took my church youth group rappelling a fire fighter came with his gear. He had like 10 of them. He used 1 for the main rope anchor and ran rope out to 4 more if these with steel carabiners out to the already existing anchors, some over 20 ft away! He tensioned it up pretty tight so that I only had about 2 ft of movement on the main anchor. It was... interesting. But super bomber. Funny thing was he had no clue to tie a figure 8 on a bight! He wanted to tie into every kid for a redundant belay from the top outside my 9mm Imlay canyon ropes using his 11mm statics. I already had people at the bottom for fireman belays. Probably the most over protected and redudndant 55ft rappels ever.😂
Re the video description, may I point out it should say: "Turns out it's 80% of "full strength" instead of the 65% we get in knots". I don't wish to sound pendantic, but the difference as per the tests is more useful that the 80 vs 70, in the description. Personally, I think I would use a bigger rope if I thought 80 vs 65 was too close for safety. This is more equipment to carry, more equipment to throw away if it falls, and what to do if you think your rope is too thin for knots, but end up having to tie a knot? References among other commenters to a/ good for inexperienced users as you *don't* need them to learn to tie knots, and b/ better meeting OHS regulations do, however, make complete sense.
These plates are for ONLY 11mm to 19mm (7/16" to 3/4") ***KERNMANTLE*** or 16mm to 19mm (5/8" to 3/4") ***3-STRAND*** ropes, according to Werner Fall Protention in their manual for Rope End Termination Plate, model A3100000.
Instead of this plate or figure 8... friction knot on the bite? How? You fold a section of the rope near to the end to create a bite. Then take a tail, put it through the anchor/carabineer. Bring the end-tail back to the bite. Threat the end piece through to the bite (between folded rope) and wrap around both lines (bite). Try to crate type of friction like evolution of Schawbish or VT. Only tested it in hammocking under body weight (110kg) forces but with quite extreme (90*) angles. Wonder what would it take at full strength? And if it was any close, or better, then figure 8 or even the termination plate?
Can someone please explain how the bollard testing models a “no-knot” situation when there’s still a knot ultimately hitching it to the loader? Like you can even see the knot at the steel carabiner tightening, but the rope still breaks at the bollard??
i have a little plastic one of these meant for securing a canopy down to a ground spike. i kind of hate it though, and i always end up just using some manner of hitches to get it where i want
I have not seen them before but now… I want to stress test them and take them to catastrophic failure like you did with the carabiners…and the rope. I just want to see it destroyed. 😈🤷♂️
Suggestion : You should test few ropes with or without adjonction of a tubular protection in the knot. Tubular protection is used on kites dynema lines. It make à Huge différence
Is there a benefit to the plate being easier to see? Makes it easier to verify that there is a stop vs a less visible knot? Still seems like something you want to check directly
Once upon a time in the tower industry osha was just oh shi… and industry standards of knots weren’t a thing. The powers that be thought these things would be amazing and tried to make them industry standard because your average tower climber was too stupid to tie a figure 8 or bowline.
In the mid video and I still don't understand how is that thingy used. Ok, to avoid knots but in what use case? Like I add that thingy on harness? That just can't be right.
These are used primarily for life safety applications in construction as far as I know. We are required to use them, because we are forced to pretend that we are all as dumb as the dumbest person to ever live. OSHA, please protect us from the Darwin Awards.
@@HowNOT2 For this test, not in the slightest. I was just wondering what the difference between the load on the line V the load on the "anchor strand" is. Why you ask? I use HMPE around a 60mm bollard to attach a winch line to the tow bar of my 4WD for pulling logs around. I thought 4 wraps was removing almost all the force on the anchor strand, but watching your video makes me question that. Why you ask? I'm lead to believe HMPE forms knife knots very easily if you can stop it from slipping.
I do not use a termination plate. It does however raise an interesting question. From the Via Ferrata world there are devices for fall arrest at large fall factors. The one I am most acquainted with is a Kisa by Kong. It allows for a dissipation of force at a controlled rate but is resettable after use as opposed to something like a screamer which is single use. I have encountered pepes that encourage there use for things like Ice where the resettable feature could be very useful. Have you encountered any of these?
I stumbeled upon a loop knot in a fishing book that claims to be 100% rope strength. The braided loop or australian plait. Would be cool to see that tested
They look very decorative. If you’re gonna build something that is semi-permanent, I feel like the extra ten percent could be significant as the rope ages beyond its natural lifespan, especially if you’re not humping that shit on your back all day every day. I’m not sure they’re fifty bucks pretty, but they are pretty. (I wonder if they make cheaper mini versions at a paracord size. Now that would be bling.)
How can I send you pictures of real life application of this device being used. It is the standard across the board for construction workers to use as a life line. As a Rope Access Technician, I've wondered about boatsman chair guys not knowing about the kind of ropes they use and gear.
I only tie my shoe laces…. And some garden lines. I think my interest in macrame is what made the littlemen inside the computer think I might be in the market for a 50 dollar plate with holes. Ha, got you there little men! I. Am. Knot!
I don’t know how I got recommended this. I don’t climb or anything. Never even heard of these plates. Kind of surprised they work as well as they do, to be honest. Sounded like a gimmick. Good engineering.
I wanna see him test samson amateel ropes. We have hot ropes we use and we use them to pick energized wires and I'm just curious to how much knots derate the rope.
Yeah.... I can see this as useful if you have a stiff large diameter rope that is hard to tie knots in, or if you're going to repeatedly load the knot where you'd likely turn anything into a knife knot (like your rope swing reference). Outside that... maybe just toe a knot...
I was work on high rise buildings installing glass we had to use ter plates cause of insurance reasons... you can't sue a knot from what I understood..
Seems an interesting device for some boat rigging, but I don't see the point of using them to replace a knot, maybe to divert control lines or something like that.
I'be heard over and over how knots weaken rope but every rope that I ever saw get broke 50+ years, it always was the rope itself between the knots that failed. odd that.
The plate (and other such "interesting portable rigging gear" ) has the advantage of just being one (additional) component - a large bend radius knot - such as a fig-8 in bight with a couple of seized marlinspikes (or rolled newspapers - extremely not typical in any sport setting - to reduce fused knots, is a hassle (one needs multiple tools in the bag of tricks), and more prone to getting wrong - any knot can be tied wrong - sort of - (this somewhat of reduces that risk). But... any claim such as 90% full rope strength without allowing for (? 2-4x) multiple rope diameters in the bend- radius (ie. a thimble of 44-88mm diameter for an 11mm rope (depending on stretch of the rope type/material) warrants testing - especially of the non scientific kind, because this is how the device will be abused in the field. - The same applies to soft shackles around small pins - or rope to rope connections - eliminating rigging hardware - thimbles, rings, etc - increases stress on the rope at attachment points., though safety factors allow for such things to be safe enough, especially if one never takes what they see online as gospel without proper assessment and training. lol..
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I used to use these plates on large construction sites for fall arrest/fall restraint applications. It is far easier to teach people to follow a single diagram than to teach multiple knots.
Until you need a knot and don't have one of these plates in your pocket.
You keep it in the gang box with the ropes and fall gear. Very good use
It’s prob part of SOP which has to be followed so workers don’t die. I’ve seen people get hurt from ignoring sop. It’s there to avoid dangerous mistakes and maintain quality
I'm a tower climbing safety and rescue instructor, and a former safety inspector. I use termination plates in class precisely because they are NOT knots, and they have pictures on them. Many climbers think they know knots better than they do. That said, I don't generally use them myself when not teaching.
I've always taught that they retain about 80-85% of the rope's strength, so that's nice.
One concern I had was whether the 12mm rope you used was static/super static, or whether it was dynamic. Most termination plates are specifically designed to be used with static ropes, since your shock pack absorbs the fall. The strain of the rope may affect results.
Love your stuff, keep learning!
EDIT: One reason that people use them is to maintain a higher rating on their ropes to keep safety guys happy. For instance, if I have a 7,000lb rope and tie a figure 8, it would be hard to argue that I'm above the 5,000lb required by OSHA/ANSI. But using a termination plate I can argue I still have a 5k capacity.
This is EXACTLY the application I was thinking of. Maintaining the sweet sweet 5Kn ansi/osha/NFPA require. Actually, NFPA may want a 2:1 safety factor iirc but I don’t remember to be precise. But yeah, in industrial or rescue settings that 10% can be quite a bit. Especially when you’re already dealing with 12mm rope.
I guess the counter argument to be had here though is that if there’s ANY other knot in the working part of your system these plates are pretty useless. Though I’d like to see how they perform where they’re anchoring like a z rig or other mechanical advantage system.
If you are working under 1926 (presuming tower climbing falls under this) the OSHA requirement is 3000lbs under the positioning standard. This requires a maximum fall distance of 2’ which is usually applicable to most rope systems, certainly any methods using direct suspension.
@@adamwood9144 we often use them for vertical lifelines, aka fall arrest. We also use a two rope method, one for fall arrest and one for positioning. It's easier to just use 5k for both, so they don't have to figure out which is which. Also, we use them for rescue, so the extra capacity is nice.
All that said, we usually just use 5k ropes with factory terminations.
@Jamoni1 using a 2 rope system is great, no requirement under 1926 to do so. As such not sure the backup has to conform to any standard at all. If you assume it does good work practices should keep the max fall to 2' and comply with the work Positioning standard.
To be honest 1926 is pretty basic and doesn't mention anything specifically about knots, force multipliers, increased loads during rescue etc.
I work to IRATA standards which are deemed compliant. We use 11mm low stretch which the manufacturer supplies an MBS for a fig 8 (approx 20kn/4400lbs) so well in excess of the 3000lbs required under 1926 work positioning.
@Jamoni1 if you are working to 1910 it gets more complicated as there are specific requirements for rope descent systems in the walking, working surfaces section. Also there's a max height of 300' that you can't exceed without proving that an alternative method is not achievable (which is a weird requirement and smells of lobbying to me).
I have no intention to go climbing, or anything that involves my body hanging from anything really, but I love this channel. I find the engineering well done and breaking things in a scientific way is great. I am also amazed at just how strong these things are.
They would make great storage hooks 😄
Technically your body is always hanging by your muscles
I totally appreciate your comment. However, a comment by another participant at a technical class I was once in will always stick with me. "I don't like ladders, you can't fall off of a rope."
@@hotwasabi69 This is why I like laying down. 🤣🤣
@@Greenketch1 I don't go up ladders either. 😁
Im a stunt rigger in the film industry. We use something simular, a "Gold tail", although it's not used as a rope termination but rather a friction deceleration device for when a performer has a long fall (I have been on a 12m decel) to decelerate him before impact with the mats. The gold tail also has a useful feature: the holes in the device can be opened along the long side, using a sliding aluminum gate, allowing you to thread the rope into the device without feeding the tail through. The gates are then closed and secured by tightening wing nuts.
The information you provide is extremely useful when considering a stunt rigging situation, thank you for the great work! Especially when considering how much we work with Dynema and Tech 12.
Also have used goldtails for stunt/ fx deceleration. Still like progressive loading with shot bags softened by bungee though
So I’m a highrise window cleaner and we use knots, we are currently on a building where the restoration workers are using the termination plates(no knots anywhere). It has to come down to how you were taught, both ways “bomber” in these applications. Our knots are decent only on rope decent system and the other crew is using swing stage for ascent and decent. While ascending, the weight in KN can go off the charts if the equipment catches lips on the building.
- and do the other guys have a backup, or are they on a single rope?? (asking for a friend.)
A device like this can always have more wraps around the body - eliminating any likely pull through (cyclic loading and unloading is the real problem there - a stopper knot is always a useful - dead stop) - while ensuring the ability to untie without a knife - though the bends (first few are the critical ones) in this plate seems to be too sharp. I would imagine a device should be - at least - as thick as the largest diameter intended to use with the largest radius - single sided with relief on the back edge, for a unidirectional use.
Worked in the cell tower industry where we did a decent amount of rigging work. We had a few of these laying around and used them for something completely different. On cell towers we need to send tools and bags of equipment up sometimes many at a time. We would clip this to the factory terminated end of a rope and then clip as many bags to the various holes as possible. This made it easier than clipping straight to the rope termination because once it was in the air the carabiners (for the sometimes very heavy bags) would sit on top of each other making it difficult to release them from the rope.
Sounds like you are describing a rigging plate. As you describe It would be easy to use a termination plate as a rigging plate, there are also a wide variety of shapes and configurations available.
"this has applications to 3 people on Earth" was brutal (two of which are you testing that)
I've used one as a termination point for a zip line in arbor care. We don't tie it off just use the friction created to control the load till it hits the ground. Makes for super easy reset.
- basically like a rack descender.
Reminds me of some arborist gear thats mainly used to add friction in riggning systems as a breaking mechanism. Notch safe bloc for example. Would love to see more arborist stuff tested on the channel
As an idea: You should test an Edelrid ohm just for fun
I would like to see some number about ohm. However I believe this will be pain to test comprehensively because resistance applied by this device strongly depends on angle of device and rope to the belayer and climber.
I second that
yes please!
YES! I outweigh my wife and most consistent belayer by 80lbs. She has belayed me on some SPICY leads in the city of rocks, and we are currently saving up for an ohm. I’d love to see this test.
@@surikatga they could do a set of tests in the gym and drop tower to get a range of real world results, then use the drop tower to find the absolute limits of the device
That is great! The dyneema results are fascinating. Few of us (not me!) Have a aetup that can so consistently break 12 mm rope
Well this is fun, I told Taylor about termination plates after using them for tower work and can say that while they might be knife knots when pulled to breaking strength, the ease of adjustment after a 5-7kn load vs a fig 8 is very useful for ropeswingmoab. Do I think they’re useful for everyone, no. But in specific situations they are definitely nice to have. Was I fooled on the amount of strength retention they had over a knot? Yes, but it’s good to know that they still help give us a bit more of a safety ratio. Great video and happy to feel directly targeted in a TH-cam video for once.
So now when the rope snaps you get a flying piece of metal upside your noggin instead of soft rope.
Seems to me that if you are running a line under part of itself that gets cinched down that is a knot. How different is that than a clovehitch or lashing? Both of which are considered knots.
Cinching down don't affect the strength. It's the sharp bends that the ropes don't like. The termination plate keeps all the sharp bends out of the rope
You guys should have them put the plates on extreme gear but just have them out of stock 100% of the time, then for the checkout button is says "Checkout: How to tie a knot for FREE" which is just a link to a video on how to tie the basic knots.
We use it for rope access with 13mm rope. (OSHA hates knots in rescue lines)
Splice is the ultimate termination anyways
We use a similar product on anchors for access to residential roofs during emergencies. The product we use is called a goldtail, and is specifically designed as a friction device to perform controlled lowers - we use chainsaws on roofs in the middle of storms, so it’s pretty necessary that we can get someone off a roof if something happens to them while they’re up there. The goldtail is much thicker, and has sliding gates on the side to put the rope in; no threading the end through. The extra thickness means the edges can also have a larger radius, so the friction should be spread over a larger area. They work well for our use with static ropes that are unlikely to get shock loaded.
I guess my main point is, there aren’t a replacement for a knot (thought this particular product seems to be, weirdly).
Pretty cool that this thing isn't actually useless, there's a reason to buy this. I was perfectly ready to hear you talk about a bad product.
i thinks same))
I do have one for my 11mm static rope when terminating. I rig per the picture you use as well but throw a simple knot in the tail after the second pass under. I also use it as a stacked rigging plate for multiple points to the front eye. Sure didn't pay $50.00 for it though. My plate also appears thicker and also has better rounding of the holes too.
Reminds me of the old rappel racks, but w no moving parts. We would sometimes terminate systems with those racks and were always told "it was close to 100%" rope strength, as compared to ending w a fig8-bight.
Major difference between these & rap racks is that the racks are designed to offer continuously-adjustable friction while these are permanently pre-set friction. As for retained strength, somebody was pulling your chain-likely 80% (best) for a standard-sized rack. Only Tensionless Hitches will retain nearly 100% rope strength.
Yes! I’m so glad you made this video. OSHA makes people use termination plates. They are so confusing and dumb. A knot is just as strong when it’s done properly. Termination plates are bureaucratic hot garbage. They should not exist.
That reminded me of Kong Slyde, Kong Kisa and all those adjustable plates where some are designed to slip too. Some of those can have a place when adjustment point is needed but I'd probably never trust any of those more than a knot, just to be safe.
Would really like to see figure 8 to bowline comparison. In my industry we used bowlines any time we have to haul heavy loads specifically because of how easy they are to untie. I'd love to see loading them to close to failure and then attempting to untie the fused knot. And yes, I am aware they are not as secure but once you have a static load applied, the knot isnt coming untied if the load is never unweighted. We also only use in non life critical applications.
Search the previous videos because he’s done several with knots
I prefer the Shizll Spiderplate with an increased bend radius. A four hole rigging plate or three hole pulley also grips well without knots. I have pulled trees over with my truck on Amsteel using this method. The line comes out with relative ease and isn't damaged.
I would like to see some break tests with the Spiderplate, DMM Rigger pulley, and four hole rigging plate.
I might use them as a termination for standing rigging on a sailboat. The ability to adjust the tension is a improvement over standard turnbuckles and I appears easier to adjust as no tools are needed.
That sounds kind of weird to me because I’ve only ever seen wire used for standing rigging. Are you on a tall ship or something?
@@hypophalangial no I have two boats that have cable wire standing rig. Since none of them see high abrasion it makes sense to not need wire. As Superior abrasion resistance is The only benefit to wire
i think the biggest deciding factor is the bend radius. just like how you test with the bollard setup because of the larger diameter if say you made one that was 2 times as thick i think you would get results closer to the bollard test. maybe even that 90% mark. increasing the radius means more contact area increasing friction like on the bollard it also drastically improves the bend radius of the line itself due to not having to make a sharp turn dispersing the load over a larger surface. another thought is to sand blast a matte finish so its smooth but still textured.
This is so informative!!! Fantastic reporting; I enjoy this kind of content!🌻🌼🐝
loved watching the slippage in the knots and plates on these
and particularly with the bite, I would love to see how various rope suspension ties work on single lines and/or doubled-over lines
particularly comparing jute, hemp, hempex and the colourful poly bondage knots
have you done it or would need examples etc?
I'd be curious to see how a blocked fig8 fares against this plate with regards to % of breaking strength
seeing as the rope usually breaks at the first bend (whether it's on a knot or with such a plate), I would think that simply having the rope blocked in some way on a steel fig8 introduces a large enough radius on the first bend to give you the same slightly higher break force... but obviously seeing it on a break test machine would be nice
Actually most suppliers of arborist gear in my country try to sell you stuff like this... A piece of aluminium with a hole (or two if it's very fancy) and like a meter of rope tied to it in some mysterious way and now it's suddenly a sloopy-doopy-sling-thing and costs 400€ waooowwww
I think where this might shine is as the top point for a slung stretcher with a couple of carabiners clipping to the termination plate for ropes from the stretchers rail - that would give an easy method to free the sides of the stretcher for placing a person into or taking them out of it. It had a lot of rope creep through it though as it tensioned up. 🤔
Very informative, thx, guys.
The hardware(wire shoe that clamps onto wire) i use on powerlines for catching/deadending wire has a rigging eye built in for attaching hoists or rope blocks.
For the guy who uses those as terminations for his rope swings who will re-rig and tighten them im curious to know how he does the rerig/tightening and if an additional offset rigging eye on those would help him or not.
I have used an imitation SMC large rigging plate to set up a 2:1 with a pulley and biner in one end and the end of the rope zigzagged through the other finger holes. I never got around to putting a spliced eye with thimble in the last hole. That would be kind of neat hanging on the wall, Of course, the pulleys should have rotating side plates. I was never really comfortable with thimbles under heavy load. If they are made from alloy steel, they may crack, revealing a sharp cutting edge, and if they are malleable, they may fold and leave a very small radius to stress the rope. It seems that these safety devices only work well where they are not needed.
I wonder how cyclical loading would behave. Also maybe tying off the tail with things way below spec is worth it
Used to get bite on middle of rope on safety line in power plants ggives you the ability to lower someone to the ground if their pick failed or they fell out for some reason, needed the ability to lower safety rope to the ground but also the ability to lower them down if they were near the top most of this work was inside a power plant boiler.
Can you test a French bowline (with a stopper knot) versus a figure 8 (with a stopper) verse a regular bowline (with a stopper)?
I've seen similar products used to add friction at an anchor to reduce the 2 to 1 at the top. I would be curious to see how much it would reduce the force.
As somebody that works in rope access, I’m excited and nervous hahaha
I know I've done termination plate type things with theater fly systems that are more temporary (so no lock mechanism and usually less options for counterweighting) that you still have to get at a rather precise height that you might not be able to get a figure eight hooked to something to work for
Pretty much how I feel about those plastic things that come on tent lines and the myriad of products sold for truck tie-downs too.
Last time i took my church youth group rappelling a fire fighter came with his gear. He had like 10 of them. He used 1 for the main rope anchor and ran rope out to 4 more if these with steel carabiners out to the already existing anchors, some over 20 ft away! He tensioned it up pretty tight so that I only had about 2 ft of movement on the main anchor. It was... interesting. But super bomber. Funny thing was he had no clue to tie a figure 8 on a bight! He wanted to tie into every kid for a redundant belay from the top outside my 9mm Imlay canyon ropes using his 11mm statics. I already had people at the bottom for fireman belays. Probably the most over protected and redudndant 55ft rappels ever.😂
Re the video description, may I point out it should say: "Turns out it's 80% of "full strength" instead of the 65% we get in knots".
I don't wish to sound pendantic, but the difference as per the tests is more useful that the 80 vs 70, in the description.
Personally, I think I would use a bigger rope if I thought 80 vs 65 was too close for safety.
This is more equipment to carry, more equipment to throw away if it falls, and what to do if you think your rope is too thin for knots, but end up having to tie a knot?
References among other commenters to a/ good for inexperienced users as you *don't* need them to learn to tie knots, and b/ better meeting OHS regulations do, however, make complete sense.
So now you made me curious.
What’s the strength reduction through a bar rack decider and a 8 decider?
You may have already done it.
These plates are for ONLY 11mm to 19mm (7/16" to 3/4") ***KERNMANTLE*** or 16mm to 19mm (5/8" to 3/4") ***3-STRAND*** ropes, according to Werner Fall Protention in their manual for Rope End Termination Plate, model A3100000.
We use these in stunts as a soft catching brake.
Cant tie knots? Tie lots
That's what I do with tying furniture to my car lol
If its not a knot it’s a tangle 😊.
Makes me wondering if the Kong Kisa or Slyde could be repurposed for something like this? Any plans to test the kong devices on the drop tower?
Instead of this plate or figure 8... friction knot on the bite?
How?
You fold a section of the rope near to the end to create a bite. Then take a tail, put it through the anchor/carabineer. Bring the end-tail back to the bite. Threat the end piece through to the bite (between folded rope) and wrap around both lines (bite). Try to crate type of friction like evolution of Schawbish or VT.
Only tested it in hammocking under body weight (110kg) forces but with quite extreme (90*) angles.
Wonder what would it take at full strength? And if it was any close, or better, then figure 8 or even the termination plate?
That's a nice key chain you got there.
Can someone please explain how the bollard testing models a “no-knot” situation when there’s still a knot ultimately hitching it to the loader? Like you can even see the knot at the steel carabiner tightening, but the rope still breaks at the bollard??
Yo that fail test apparatus is scary AF. Impressive build my guys
i have a little plastic one of these meant for securing a canopy down to a ground spike. i kind of hate it though, and i always end up just using some manner of hitches to get it where i want
I have not seen them before but now…
I want to stress test them and take them to catastrophic failure like you did with the carabiners…and the rope.
I just want to see it destroyed. 😈🤷♂️
That looks a hell of a lot like a bigger version of some firefighter bailout rappel devices. Seeing how it slips... I bet you could make it work
I could see using these in an entertainment fly application. For trapeze rigging & stays.
I would love to see what happens with 19mm (or whatever the upper limit was) on that thing.
Rope Swing Moab is the best! Nice tests Ryan
You can do exactly the same thing with a Petzl rigging plate, and a rigging plate is actually useful.
Suggestion :
You should test few ropes with or without adjonction of a tubular protection in the knot.
Tubular protection is used on kites dynema lines.
It make à Huge différence
Cheers for the video. More Arborist gear please.
Is there a benefit to the plate being easier to see? Makes it easier to verify that there is a stop vs a less visible knot? Still seems like something you want to check directly
Once upon a time in the tower industry osha was just oh shi… and industry standards of knots weren’t a thing. The powers that be thought these things would be amazing and tried to make them industry standard because your average tower climber was too stupid to tie a figure 8 or bowline.
3:25 really should try the munter hitch, closed off with a pair of half hitchs on the main anchor to lower the knife knots?
do you guys know if dressing a figure of 8 knot makes a significant difference to strength? as opposed to just cranking a knot?
In the mid video and I still don't understand how is that thingy used. Ok, to avoid knots but in what use case? Like I add that thingy on harness? That just can't be right.
These are used primarily for life safety applications in construction as far as I know. We are required to use them, because we are forced to pretend that we are all as dumb as the dumbest person to ever live. OSHA, please protect us from the Darwin Awards.
You could use these like a figure 8 rappel device in a pinch. But then why would you have these with you in that situation?
I've never seen one of those. I'd probably use it as a bathroom pass in a highschool or maybe a keychain for shed keys.
Can you(or have you an I missed it) put a strain gauge on the anchor leg of the bollard? Seems to be pulling pretty hard on that knot.
Does it matter how hard it pulls on the knot if it didn’t break there? Some bollards use clamps but same idea.
@@HowNOT2 For this test, not in the slightest. I was just wondering what the difference between the load on the line V the load on the "anchor strand" is.
Why you ask?
I use HMPE around a 60mm bollard to attach a winch line to the tow bar of my 4WD for pulling logs around. I thought 4 wraps was removing almost all the force on the anchor strand, but watching your video makes me question that.
Why you ask?
I'm lead to believe HMPE forms knife knots very easily if you can stop it from slipping.
Hey,
I recently bought the mighty lock from BC. It is a 10kN WLL line lock. I think it's very interesting. Could you test it?
I would be very intrigued to see if you could use them as a screamer. There are reusable ones I have seen but never used them.
How about the bowline?
I would be especially interested in the bowline on a bight.
I do not use a termination plate. It does however raise an interesting question. From the Via Ferrata world there are devices for fall arrest at large fall factors. The one I am most acquainted with is a Kisa by Kong. It allows for a dissipation of force at a controlled rate but is resettable after use as opposed to something like a screamer which is single use. I have encountered pepes that encourage there use for things like Ice where the resettable feature could be very useful. Have you encountered any of these?
I stumbeled upon a loop knot in a fishing book that claims to be 100% rope strength. The braided loop or australian plait. Would be cool to see that tested
They look very decorative. If you’re gonna build something that is semi-permanent, I feel like the extra ten percent could be significant as the rope ages beyond its natural lifespan, especially if you’re not humping that shit on your back all day every day. I’m not sure they’re fifty bucks pretty, but they are pretty.
(I wonder if they make cheaper mini versions at a paracord size. Now that would be bling.)
Would be nice to see the bollard tests for the 6mm ones, blog addition maybe?
Going to use this to tie into my harness. Should be super good enough, right?
Until it smacks you in the nuts!!
What's the brand of the 9mm poly?
How can I send you pictures of real life application of this device being used. It is the standard across the board for construction workers to use as a life line. As a Rope Access Technician, I've wondered about boatsman chair guys not knowing about the kind of ropes they use and gear.
I only tie my shoe laces…. And some garden lines. I think my interest in macrame is what made the littlemen inside the computer think I might be in the market for a 50 dollar plate with holes. Ha, got you there little men! I. Am. Knot!
Companies trying to resell their brass knuckles after finding out that theyre illegal in most places
Might make a good shot glass holder.
I use that for lab testing in industrial fall protection
how do you use them?
@@rolobotoman for unterminated rope life lines
I can see use for these when terminating a dyneema zipline
I don’t know how I got recommended this. I don’t climb or anything. Never even heard of these plates. Kind of surprised they work as well as they do, to be honest. Sounded like a gimmick. Good engineering.
I wonder if you could use larger knots and have multiple ropes per plate, don't know what it would be used for but might be useful for something
I wanna see him test samson amateel ropes. We have hot ropes we use and we use them to pick energized wires and I'm just curious to how much knots derate the rope.
honestly, I can see those being used as places to clip carabiners to, wonder what the actual breaking strength of the metal would be in that situation
I tried it once, knots are way easier and super good enough.
Yeah....
I can see this as useful if you have a stiff large diameter rope that is hard to tie knots in, or if you're going to repeatedly load the knot where you'd likely turn anything into a knife knot (like your rope swing reference). Outside that... maybe just toe a knot...
I was work on high rise buildings installing glass we had to use ter plates cause of insurance reasons... you can't sue a knot from what I understood..
Seems an interesting device for some boat rigging, but I don't see the point of using them to replace a knot, maybe to divert control lines or something like that.
that's why i always bring bollards with me for climbing
I'be heard over and over how knots weaken rope but every rope that I ever saw get broke 50+ years, it always was the rope itself between the knots that failed. odd that.
They could work super good for holding eggs !
The plate (and other such "interesting portable rigging gear" ) has the advantage of just being one (additional) component - a large bend radius knot - such as a fig-8 in bight with a couple of seized marlinspikes (or rolled newspapers - extremely not typical in any sport setting - to reduce fused knots, is a hassle (one needs multiple tools in the bag of tricks), and more prone to getting wrong - any knot can be tied wrong - sort of - (this somewhat of reduces that risk).
But... any claim such as 90% full rope strength without allowing for (? 2-4x) multiple rope diameters in the bend- radius (ie. a thimble of 44-88mm diameter for an 11mm rope (depending on stretch of the rope type/material) warrants testing - especially of the non scientific kind, because this is how the device will be abused in the field.
- The same applies to soft shackles around small pins - or rope to rope connections - eliminating rigging hardware - thimbles, rings, etc - increases stress on the rope at attachment points., though safety factors allow for such things to be safe enough, especially if one never takes what they see online as gospel without proper assessment and training. lol..
Fascinating, never heard of these things. As a climber, I obviously don't need this stuff.
Now do the Kong Kisa impact absorber please!