Having owned these recordings for a long time and enjoyed them immensely, I agree with you completely. Discussing the Eroica performance with a freind, he asked me what made my so fond of it. I answered-"once it starts there is no way you can tur it off before the end. The propulsiveness of the performance just grabs you and wont let go until the very end." Lets hope that these recordings never go out of print.
My late wife gave me the 109 disc (I think) Toscanini RCA box for the exact reasons that Dave describes... that it is a historical reference in the pre-stereo era. My Dad had the 1939 Beethoven 5th in his collection of 48 78 rpm albums...which became the foundation of my musical upbringing long before I was strong enough to lift a single shellac record. AND there was one stereo recording of Toscanini's last concert where he has a memory lapse (highly unusual for the Maestro) and things fall apart for a moment (in the Tannhäuser overture, I think). But I learned all of the Beethoven symphonies from my Aunt's "Society of Great Music" (aka Book of the month Club) edition and still have that album cover scanned and in my computer collection of these works. Even Karajan said that his ideal was the accuracy of Toscanini with the improvisational character of Furtwängler...which seems like an oxymoron, but HvK did achieve that in some of his performances. Anyhow, Toscanini is the Holy Grail of orchestral performance between 1930 and 1955 and I agree with Dave that his work should "never be out of print." (but I wish we had his pre-WWII Parsifal from Bayreuth...alleged to be the slowest on record !!)
I think that the interpretations of the symphonies 1-4, 6, and 8 in this cycle are amongst the very best even today in the greatly crowded field. A truly great cycle. Many thanks for asking the case for reissue. Hari
Thank you for keeping this series going in 2025. In some ways the recent RCA treatment of Toscanini echoes the Warner Classics treatment of Karajan’s recorded legacy for EMI. Your point is well-made about producing an attractive product. I’d venture to add that there is a certain irony that others less distinguished have been given the original jacket coffee table book treatment by Sony. If Szell and Ormandy (as great conductors as they are) can sell, then surely so can Toscanini.
currently, looking at presto: music and arts have the 1939 cycle available on cd and download (with a digital copy of the booklet). Andromeda also have the 1939 cycle available as download (with NO digital booklet). RCA have the box shown in the video as a download - but like so many downloads it does NOT include a digital copy of the booklet.
For my money, Toscanini's 1939 Beethoven cycle is vastly superior to the "standard" RCA one: more incisive and involving, even if the sound quality is (marginally) inferior. The Music & Arts box is the way to go, even if you've previously invested in the Naxos versions.
I recently got this cycle on vintage vinyl and am astonished how good it sounds, and how laserlike and coherent his vision of the works. I kinda stopped searching for other interpretations at least for now 😅
Toscanini also gave first performances in Italy of works by Wagner, Brahms, Sibelius, Debussy and Tchaikovsky. I agree, everyone should at least hear this Beethoven cycle. Even where one disagrees with certain things (can I mention the 1st mvt of the 9th?) so much of it is incandescent. It's amazing that a man born in 1867 can be seen conducting on television, including some Beethoven. Only the Weingartner cycle predates this and he was born four years earlier. My impression is that the Toscanini Beethoven 9th was the best seller classical album of the 1950s, not surpassed until the stereo era. The Gould Bach Goldbergs might be closest.
I didn't realize the Beethoven set was now out of print which is completely weird to me since it's been continuously available in some form since its original issue in 1953. I hope RCA will reissue it yet again and the set of Brahms symphonies as well. Hell, they should just reissue the complete Toscanini box again!
On the "What's My Melodic Line" bit from the album "PDQ Bach on the Air," Peter Schickele gives out the Toscanini recordings of the Beethoven symphonies as a consolation prize, part of a running gag where he rubbishes Beethoven (the first prize being a bust of the middle-Baroque kleinmeister Torelli). For me, Toscanini still stands as the best Beethoven interpreter of his type-basically no one did "fast and furious" Beethoven as well as he did in the stereo era, not for a whole cycle at least (though both Kleibers, Karajan, and Wand all gave us Fifths that were basically Toscanini 2.0). The HIP people exceeded his tempi, but their ensembles have sounded thin compared to the muscular, impactful playing of the NBC Symphony.
@@DavesClassicalGuide Thanks for the reply. I've sampled a RCA Gold Seal BMG Classics set from 1990 and a RCA Red Seal BMG Classics set from 2003. I very much prefer the sound of the later one.
I fully agree with you Dave! Let's hope RCA will as well! About Toscanini, there is something I would like to coment: I took from the library the book published by the Library of America containing the critical articles by Virgil Thompson published in the 30's and 40's if I am not mistaken. And I was shocked by what he wrote about Toscanini, he entirely misunderstood Toscanini. His judgement was so wrong that I couldn't read him anymore and gave the book back. Judging by his opinion about Toscanini I can not understand why Virgil Thompson was considered a good critic. Maybe you could do a video about Virgil Thompson and his legacy?
@@ernestrobles1510And more contemporary American music in general. I have one of Thomson's books and he's quite cordial to the conductor when he reviews an all contemporary program in 1945 of Creston, Castelnuovo-Tedesco, Rieti and Siegmeister. Thomson's frequent criticism of Toscanini "streamlining" his interpretations in his late years I think is not entirely without merit. Especially compared with the flexibility of earlier years. But then you get something like the magnificent 1953 Eroica and there's no foundation for it.
See Earl Wild on Thomson. He was a mean person, and in my view a very mediocre critic. I do like a lot of his music, though, but being an active composer he should never have been a critic.
I don't know why, but I can never keep my attention to Beethoven's music (piano sonatas, chamber music, symphonies...) It's a problem that I only run into with this particular composer. It frustrates me immensely, especially because I can't find a plausible explanation for it. What am I missing? I'll try again with Toscanini. Thanks, Dave.
I kind of get you. I don’t have that problem with his symphonies or his piano stuff but his middle string quartets for some reason I just could not focus on. And his 11, 12 and 14 quartets. But I kept trying and I’m glad I did. Beautiful works.
There are two Beethoven cycles made with the NBC Symphony Orchestra. The one Dave is holding up contains the 1949-1952 recordings made at Carnegie Hall. There is also an earlier 1939 cycle recorded in Studio 8H. By the way, only the very last two concerts he gave (in 1954) were recorded in stereo, everything else is in mono.
@@doctorzingoPristine does have a "stereo" 1951 Verdi Requiem combining the separate RCA microphones with the NBC broadcast mics. Not totally convincing, but offering a welcome spread and air around the sound.
@@doctorzingo Ah, thanks for pointing that out. The 1939 one looks to be still available for $50-60 but I can't imagine it sounding as good as the 1949-52 Carnegie Hall.
@@doctorzingo It should perhaps be noted that Toscanini's 1939 Beethoven "cycle" was never an official release. The recordings were all taken from radio broadcasts and were eventually released years later by several different labels. Toscanini himself never approved any of the 1939 broadcast recordings for release with the exception of the "Eroica" which was issued by RCA on 78 RPM.
RCA/BMG, or whatever you call yourselves these days: I might if you twist my arm really, really hard, breaking it in several places, understand why you're unable to produce another "Toscanini Edition," but to not have his completed Beethoven Symphonies reissued, regardless of price point, is an act of cultural idiocy bordering on insanity. Please, just do it! Consider it one cultural labour of love that just might, God willing, bring substantial cash into your corporate coffers. Just do it! Please... I'll whine some more if it'll help. :)
Given the supposed decline of the CD, I'd be surprised if the big Toscanini box ever is remade. How much longer before Sony throws in the towel and stops producing physical media completely? Are there younger musicians and wannabe conductors who even know who Toscanini was? When I croak will there be anyone who wants my Toscanini box?
Well, DGG have already offered some newer "releases" with no equivalent physical format. So I too share your concern that it's only a matter of time before no CDs are produced and no CD players are made. Also irritates me that many call the non-CD formats (streaming &/or downloading) "digital." CDs ARE digital! Also statements that "nobody buys CDs anymore." That reminds me of Yogi Berra's oft-told remark about a restaurant that "nobody goes to anymore because it's always so crowded."
Let's face it, many people can't listen to and listen THROUGH mono recordings just as some can't watch black and white movies no matter how superb they may be. Sad. The total demise of cd may be premature. A lot of us thought vinyl was hopelessly dead but it's become a cult thing.
Having owned these recordings for a long time and enjoyed them immensely, I agree with you completely. Discussing the Eroica performance with a freind, he asked me what made my so fond of it. I answered-"once it starts there is no way you can tur it off before the end. The propulsiveness of the performance just grabs you and wont let go until the very end." Lets hope that these recordings never go out of print.
My late wife gave me the 109 disc (I think) Toscanini RCA box for the exact reasons that Dave describes... that it is a historical reference in the pre-stereo era. My Dad had the 1939 Beethoven 5th in his collection of 48 78 rpm albums...which became the foundation of my musical upbringing long before I was strong enough to lift a single shellac record. AND there was one stereo recording of Toscanini's last concert where he has a memory lapse (highly unusual for the Maestro) and things fall apart for a moment (in the Tannhäuser overture, I think). But I learned all of the Beethoven symphonies from my Aunt's "Society of Great Music" (aka Book of the month Club) edition and still have that album cover scanned and in my computer collection of these works. Even Karajan said that his ideal was the accuracy of Toscanini with the improvisational character of Furtwängler...which seems like an oxymoron, but HvK did achieve that in some of his performances. Anyhow, Toscanini is the Holy Grail of orchestral performance between 1930 and 1955 and I agree with Dave that his work should "never be out of print." (but I wish we had his pre-WWII Parsifal from Bayreuth...alleged to be the slowest on record !!)
I've got the Toscanini box. He stares at me every night.
I think that the interpretations of the symphonies 1-4, 6, and 8 in this cycle are amongst the very best even today in the greatly crowded field. A truly great cycle. Many thanks for asking the case for reissue. Hari
Thank you for keeping this series going in 2025. In some ways the recent RCA treatment of Toscanini echoes the Warner Classics treatment of Karajan’s recorded legacy for EMI. Your point is well-made about producing an attractive product. I’d venture to add that there is a certain irony that others less distinguished have been given the original jacket coffee table book treatment by Sony. If Szell and Ormandy (as great conductors as they are) can sell, then surely so can Toscanini.
and to think the almost none of these recordings ever happened, as he was scheduled to cross the Atlantic on the Lusitania.
The other day Spotify suggested this set to me in its You May Also Like section, pretty good taste on its part ha :D
currently, looking at presto: music and arts have the 1939 cycle available on cd and download (with a digital copy of the booklet). Andromeda also have the 1939 cycle available as download (with NO digital booklet). RCA have the box shown in the video as a download - but like so many downloads it does NOT include a digital copy of the booklet.
For my money, Toscanini's 1939 Beethoven cycle is vastly superior to the "standard" RCA one: more incisive and involving, even if the sound quality is (marginally) inferior. The Music & Arts box is the way to go, even if you've previously invested in the Naxos versions.
I recently got this cycle on vintage vinyl and am astonished how good it sounds, and how laserlike and coherent his vision of the works. I kinda stopped searching for other interpretations at least for now 😅
Toscanini also gave first performances in Italy of works by Wagner, Brahms, Sibelius, Debussy and Tchaikovsky.
I agree, everyone should at least hear this Beethoven cycle. Even where one disagrees with certain things (can I mention the 1st mvt of the 9th?) so much of it is incandescent.
It's amazing that a man born in 1867 can be seen conducting on television, including some Beethoven.
Only the Weingartner cycle predates this and he was born four years earlier.
My impression is that the Toscanini Beethoven 9th was the best seller classical album of the 1950s, not surpassed until the stereo era. The Gould Bach Goldbergs might be closest.
I didn't realize the Beethoven set was now out of print which is completely weird to me since it's been continuously available in some form since its original issue in 1953. I hope RCA will reissue it yet again and the set of Brahms symphonies as well. Hell, they should just reissue the complete Toscanini box again!
Recording Respighi! Pines!
"But Maestro it we record any louder it'll break the equipment."
"BBBBreak it, then!!"
No, it was "Feste Romane"
On the "What's My Melodic Line" bit from the album "PDQ Bach on the Air," Peter Schickele gives out the Toscanini recordings of the Beethoven symphonies as a consolation prize, part of a running gag where he rubbishes Beethoven (the first prize being a bust of the middle-Baroque kleinmeister Torelli). For me, Toscanini still stands as the best Beethoven interpreter of his type-basically no one did "fast and furious" Beethoven as well as he did in the stereo era, not for a whole cycle at least (though both Kleibers, Karajan, and Wand all gave us Fifths that were basically Toscanini 2.0). The HIP people exceeded his tempi, but their ensembles have sounded thin compared to the muscular, impactful playing of the NBC Symphony.
Have there been improvements in sound quality over the course of the various reissues on cd? Do some incarnations sound better than the others?
Yes, but not consistently.
@@DavesClassicalGuide
Thanks for the reply. I've sampled a RCA Gold Seal BMG Classics set from 1990 and a RCA Red Seal BMG Classics set from 2003. I very much prefer the sound of the later one.
I'm curious just how much $$$ the lables save when they leave the notes out of a budget issue 🤔
I fully agree with you Dave! Let's hope RCA will as well! About Toscanini, there is something I would like to coment: I took from the library the book published by the Library of America containing the critical articles by Virgil Thompson published in the 30's and 40's if I am not mistaken. And I was shocked by what he wrote about Toscanini, he entirely misunderstood Toscanini. His judgement was so wrong that I couldn't read him anymore and gave the book back. Judging by his opinion about Toscanini I can not understand why Virgil Thompson was considered a good critic. Maybe you could do a video about Virgil Thompson and his legacy?
At least part of it,I think, is that Toscanini would not perform Thompson’s music.
@@ernestrobles1510And more contemporary American music in general. I have one of Thomson's books and he's quite cordial to the conductor when he reviews an all contemporary program in 1945 of Creston, Castelnuovo-Tedesco, Rieti and Siegmeister.
Thomson's frequent criticism of Toscanini "streamlining" his interpretations in his late years I think is not entirely without merit. Especially compared with the flexibility of earlier years. But then you get something like the magnificent 1953 Eroica and there's no foundation for it.
See Earl Wild on Thomson. He was a mean person, and in my view a very mediocre critic. I do like a lot of his music, though, but being an active composer he should never have been a critic.
Right you are I just sent for it
I don't know why, but I can never keep my attention to Beethoven's music (piano sonatas, chamber music, symphonies...) It's a problem that I only run into with this particular composer. It frustrates me immensely, especially because I can't find a plausible explanation for it. What am I missing?
I'll try again with Toscanini. Thanks, Dave.
Not everyone connects with every composer. I'm this way about Schumann.
I kind of get you. I don’t have that problem with his symphonies or his piano stuff but his middle string quartets for some reason I just could not focus on. And his 11, 12 and 14 quartets. But I kept trying and I’m glad I did. Beautiful works.
Is that the mono version he did with the NBC Symphony Orchestra?
There are two Beethoven cycles made with the NBC Symphony Orchestra. The one Dave is holding up contains the 1949-1952 recordings made at Carnegie Hall. There is also an earlier 1939 cycle recorded in Studio 8H.
By the way, only the very last two concerts he gave (in 1954) were recorded in stereo, everything else is in mono.
@@doctorzingoPristine does have a "stereo" 1951 Verdi Requiem combining the separate RCA microphones with the NBC broadcast mics. Not totally convincing, but offering a welcome spread and air around the sound.
@@doctorzingo Ah, thanks for pointing that out. The 1939 one looks to be still available for $50-60 but I can't imagine it sounding as good as the 1949-52 Carnegie Hall.
@@doctorzingo It should perhaps be noted that Toscanini's 1939 Beethoven "cycle" was never an official release. The recordings were all taken from radio broadcasts and were eventually released years later by several different labels. Toscanini himself never approved any of the 1939 broadcast recordings for release with the exception of the "Eroica" which was issued by RCA on 78 RPM.
RCA/BMG, or whatever you call yourselves these days: I might if you twist my arm really, really hard, breaking it in several places, understand why you're unable to produce another "Toscanini Edition," but to not have his completed Beethoven Symphonies reissued, regardless of price point, is an act of cultural idiocy bordering on insanity. Please, just do it! Consider it one cultural labour of love that just might, God willing, bring substantial cash into your corporate coffers. Just do it! Please... I'll whine some more if it'll help. :)
Found a copy for $10.
Given the supposed decline of the CD, I'd be surprised if the big Toscanini box ever is remade. How much longer before Sony throws in the towel and stops producing physical media completely? Are there younger musicians and wannabe conductors who even know who Toscanini was? When I croak will there be anyone who wants my Toscanini box?
Well, DGG have already offered some newer "releases" with no equivalent physical format. So I too share your concern that it's only a matter of time before no CDs are produced and no CD players are made. Also irritates me that many call the non-CD formats (streaming &/or downloading) "digital." CDs ARE digital! Also statements that "nobody buys CDs anymore." That reminds me of Yogi Berra's oft-told remark about a restaurant that "nobody goes to anymore because it's always so crowded."
Let's face it, many people can't listen to and listen THROUGH mono recordings just as some can't watch black and white movies no matter how superb they may be. Sad.
The total demise of cd may be premature. A lot of us thought vinyl was hopelessly dead but it's become a cult thing.