Why Was New Jersey Selected For the Vietnam War Over the Other Battleships?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 26 ก.ย. 2024
- In this episode we're talking about USS New Jersey, her sisters, and why NJ was chosen.
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I was a Battalion Ops officer in 101st ABN in Vietnam. One night I was assigned to conduct H&I (Harassment and Interdiction) firing. Basically you pick a few targets based on intel (usually along the Ho Chi Minh trail) and direct artillery fire at them . I was given a radio frequency and call sign for whomever was assigned to do the shooting. I called and passed along the coordinates - and was puzzled when the person i spoke with kept saying "Aye". Turns out it was the New Jersey, and when the 16 inch rounds passed about 200 feet over our hilltop position, it sounded like a freight train going by. It woke my CO up and he came into the TOC asking what the f**k was going on. FYI a 16" round is roughly the equivalent of a 1000# bomb.
"Just following orders sir"
Dam
I have heard that in Vietnam the new Jersey shorted a mountain for the army. Is this true?
@@GroverDodds-x5u I think so, someone did a video for it.
The rewiring of the fire control systems must have been a complete nightmare for the teams working on the Wisconsin. You've shown in other videos just how crowded that trunk is.
Not to mention I doubt there was anyone left in the 80s who even knew how it worked. Rewiring off builders plans is possible, but not fun or fast.
I would suspect they used the other 3 ships as a template/ physical wiring diagram.@@MisterLongShot_Official
I wonder if the longer runs might have been jointed , with new cabling to replace the burned out sections original drawings would have been important and tracing each to its destination would have been a major job .
I used to be a cable splicer for the railroad, and we use the same Okonite cable used in these ships. It can be spliced, but there’s a very specific method that has to be used. And yes, it’s tedious and time consuming. They may have opted for complete cable replacement, but with correct schematics and proper splicing it shouldn’t be necessary.
I'd assume they used it as an opportunity for a complete refresh using all new, modern wiring. Wires manufactured in the 40s were not of the same technological standard as wiring of the 60s or 80s.
Just want to show appreciation for shedding light on all these "new" finds in the documentation and artifacts lately! Can't imagine how excited you all are when you find something new like this.
My destroyer had been brought into the Philly Naval Yard for a short SRA and we were moored at a pier near the Officer's Housing. Wisconsin was moored at the other end of the yard, in an industrial area our crew was not permitted into. Iowa had left by this point, a good deal earlier and some of our guys had picked up some scuttlebutt that Wiskey had suffered a major fire while in mothballs but that the fire had been in one of the 16" turrets or barbets and that the Navy was having second thoughts about reactivating her. There were still two "low mileage" Des Moines plus ex-Newport News available and the rumor mill was saying that Des Moines and Salem were being considered to bring back as a pair in place of BB-64.
Of course, we know now what the decision was and the next time I crossed paths with Wisconsin I was glad that she was there, off Kuwait with Missouri lighting up the skies. I was in USS Nassau (LHA 4) by this point, thinking we would shortly be landing 30 shiploads of Marines into Kuwait and wishing that we could bring New Jersey and Iowa out as well. The Intel that we were receiving was that TWO battleships were raising hell with the Iraqi Army's morale, lines of communications and supply south of Kuwait City. My thinking was FOUR could break that portion of the Army and cause them to run before the Marines would be landed.
The Marines were used as a very effective trap against the Iraqi Army while maintaining the option of actually landing them if the situation required it.
Those Iraqi divisions sent to oppose the landings marched right into the fire from those 16" guns. Guns directed by the first extensive use of drones by the US. The combination of loitering drones for targeting and the persistent fire from battleships broke the will of those divisions. Some of those broken units later met their final demise along the "highway of death" while attempting to escape Kuwait.
Brutal warfare, but quick and effective. America's only undisputed victory since World War 2.
Every time you saw those big guns firing, they were firing on confirmed targets. No suppressive fire or blanketing preparatory fire. That was all targeted shots.
I remember the New Jersey from the time she was being refitted in the PNSY. My ship was moored in the bay next to her having some work done. On the peir were some new 16 inch gun barrels, and I managed to crawl through one of them on a dare. I was 19 at the time and weighed about half of what I do now.
We were visiting the battleship a few days ago. Caught a glimpse of you and someone else carrying a tripod and going through one of the "STAFF ONLY" doors. Felt it would've been inappropriate to yell your name in order to catch your attention, but it would've been nice to shake your hand and thank you for all the hard work you do. Everyone on board was helpful and cheerful, and we enjoyed the turret and boiler room toors.
Keep up the good work!
Major calibre gunfire support sounds like a sick band name
@TheMichaelJacksonFactChannel Only if you are on the delivering end, not on the receiving end.
Impressive view at 8:24 with Wisconsin, New Jersey, and Iowa moored together.
I worked at the Mississippi ship yard were the Wisconsin was reactivated from 86 to 88.. it was a mess.. we had very little know how on the battleships.. out dated everything... some of the Us Navy crew were from the 50s and 60s that somwhat knew what to do.. the guns were in bad shape along with the teak deck
My dad was working for the Watervliet Arsenal (Watervliet, New York State) during the time the Big J was being readied for Vietnam service. He showed me the pictures he took of all of the 16” guns that were removed from the NJ and sent up the Hudson River to the Arsenal to be reconditioned and relined. None of that equipment is still at the Arsenal. They can never again do that kind of work.
Interestingly, The Massachusetts guns were made in Watervliet.
I think the arsenal still has a barrel out back on display.
Typical of our industrial base today. We can not make or repair much of what was made in 1940s.
I think that this was the case in the 1980s. 3d printers and CNC machines have certainly reduced those problems exponentially. I know what you are saying and I agree with you. The Pentagon has found out the hard way. In another 5-10 years we will be back up to full production. Let's hope we don't need it for us to actually use instead of our proxies within that time.
@@mjmurphy2023 While, I meant that the equipment to manufacture large guns like the 16” battleships guns is gone, and probably never will be made again, since the Battleships are now past the point that they can be recalled for service.
RD3 manning ECM on board the USS Josephus Daniel, DLG27, a frigate not a cruiser, at sea for the shakedown cruises of the New Jersey. Skipping through the frequencies looking for submarine radar when I hit the Fire Control radar of the battleship not just active but locked on to the JD. Scary? Nah but I almost wet my pants!
Because from what i did my homework, she was more preserved and in better shape than her other sister ships
Seems like a reasonably good answer.
In addition to her overhaul and state of preservation I think New Jersey was regunned just prior to mothballing.
I love listening to the stories these amazing warships have to tell. Absolutely riveting!!
"Its not the years, its the mileage"
Are there any documents that show the actual mileage of the Iowas?
I’d love to hear about the progress of Texas since the curators for Texas have been silent for a while
Your inquiry is best directed at/to Battleship Texas Foundation.
There are some 3rd parties that have captured drone footage outside of the drydock. Seems like she is coming along nicely.
Right and all those points are valid but I want to hear it from Ryan with how he explains it and since his boat is fixing to go into dry dock
If the ship is in mothballs, why is there power on board and I understand there’s dehumidification equipment, but why would stuff in the fire control junction? Why would that be energized? It doesn’t make sense unless there’s some thing else wiring in there very good question.
Not his ship of expertise and totally different needs and circumstances. Battleship Texas Foundation is the best place for those answers.@@adampopour8491
The Missouri speed restriction is bunk. Wisconsin’s fire -though significant-was not as bad as described. New Jersey’s extensive overhaul prior to decommissioning is the real reason. (Reliable sources)
Yes. Although I suspect even a relatively minor fire would have pushed Wisconsin down the line. They don’t want the extra cost and headache of fixing it.
@@bigstick6332 And unknowns. I spoke to folks who worked on her reactivation and they said it wasn’t as bad as feared. They said “She’s better than new and the best of the four reactivations.”
BB 63 had a major grounding, causing speed restrictions
Thank you for saying Missouri correctly. 😀
Iowa has a rushed time in Pascagoula and she left with a large “punch list of deferred maintenance “
They were in a rush to get her out of 'Goula in order to relieve New Jersey off Beirut as I understood the situation.
Interesting discussion. Thanks for doing all the research and presenting this video! I live in Long Beach, and recalled well seeing that New Jersey, and Missouri birthed at the Long Beach Naval Station; what a fantastic and gorgeous sight it was!
When the New Jersey and Missouri were being mothballed in the early 90s for the last time, I was working in Long Beach at the Ralph’s grocery store at the roundabout/traffic circle; workers from the Loooong Beach they will ship yard, were regular customers, and would describe to me some of the things they did to “button up“ the ship. One day to gentleman described securing/removal of 16 inch shells and powder bags. Another, younger gentleman humorously said that the New Jersey should enclosed in a giant, glass case with the words “in case of war break glasses” at least one gentleman seemed frustrated, if that’s the right word, that the ships were being retired after so much work had gone into upgrading and refitting them into modern, potent warships.
Home Run. Great History lesson, again.
My Dad helped tare down and rebuild the boilers when they brought her back.
Very well done, great use of primary sources.
Landings at Normandy: Has there ever been an official study of what the Navy SHOULD have done better for the beach landings? One guess; better way to get the Shermans ashore with the ground troops.
Despite compartmentalization, the fire on the USS Bonhomme Richard (LHD-6) caused the ship to be scrapped.
Because she was so old she wasn’t worth returning to service economically
I like your explanation about the location of the ships in mooring. Thank you.
I'd like to see a vid of how Ryan came to be the Curator of the New Jersey. What prepares you for this? How do you train for such a position?
How do you get that job
It's because Big J was the DC supreme!
16 inch guns have at least 4 times the shell capability as 8 Inch not twice based on cross-sectional area. Higher based on shell weight and or energy.
Cross-sectional area isn't a measure of artillery capability. The 16" guns with their 1900 pound shells had a maximum fire rate of 2 rounds/minute/gun. The 8" guns with their 260 pound shells had a maximum fire rate of 10 rounds/minute/gun. The resulting capability against unhardened shore targets ends up being pretty similar.
I'm very curious about this subject.🤔
USS Iowa: The Eldest
USS New Jersey: The Star Achiever
USS Missouri: The *-Spoiled Brat-* Baby of the Bunch
USS Wisconsin: The Weird One
USS WisKy, she does have Kentucky's bow.
Wisconsin: The Vegeta.
You hit the USS Missouri right on the money. It should NEVER have been berthed at Pearl Harbor! That berth RIGHTFULLY belongs to the late USS Enterprise!
USS New Jersey: "I GREW UP IN CAMDEN, MOTHERF*CKER!!"
Ha ha, that's funny.@@douglasstrother6584
Long story short why reactivate 2 aging cruisers that need to share parts and ammo when they have warehouses of 16 inch shells rusting away. Plus battleship, show of power.
I’ve always been curious as to which Iowa they would’ve reactivated during the Vietnam War if the Navy had desired an additional battleship. Given Wisconsin’s fire I always assumed that it would’ve come down to between the Iowa herself and Missouri, with the Iowa likely getting the nod.
This video gives credence to that notion. Nevertheless, it would be interesting to know how much difference there was between the Iowa and Missouri and their respective material conditions in the 1960s.
Usually, a recent "INSERV" determines which vessels are prioritized.
Great details in this one! Based on the information provided and extensive damage and then repairs is the Wisconsin in the best material condition now?
Probably Missouri as of right this minute, because I believe she had a yard service period as part of the contract for filming that Battleship movie. I would love to see all 4 Iowa-class curators get together and chat about their ships.
Probably. Wisconsin had the most extensive refit and shortest service time in the 1990s. She was one of the 2 BBs (along with the Iowa) kept in reserve until 2006. New Jersey and Missouri had significantly longer operational periods during their service lives. Missouri had a hull cleaning and repainting about a decade ago but that's it.
...and the Whisky had the shortest active time. Ok fellas let's inform the SecNav that we have determined that the Wisconsin needs to be reactivated. 🤣😂
Thank you for the thought, but I can read for myself.
They used the word "equal" to refer to the cost, which is clearly inaccurate, so I think we're working with a high tolerance for difference here. $20,000 and $40,000 are "equal" if you're worth $150 billion. The criteria is probably that either price doesn't hinder the Navy's plans within its budget.
Interesting the idea that Missouri had a speed restriction due to her grounding made it into an official document (more than a decade later). Missouri actually had little damage from the grounding, and it was completely repaired. There was no speed restriction.
Great Info
Super interesting!
Well done, swabs
I would love to learn more about bb63 speed restriction
From what I read the alleged reduction was due to her grounding in 1950 in Hampton Roads. She was drydocked and repaired in Norfolk, but there was no mention of a speed reduction from 1950 to 1955 which included her Korean service. When Missouri was recommissioned in 1986 she was able to attain 32-33 knots on her speed trials so by that time either the speed reduction condition was corrected or it never existed in the first place. I think Paul Stillwell's book on the Missouri can give more details if you are interested.
Just looking at the names of the Iowas, New Jersey is the best for operations in and around Yankee Station
Here's a hopefully non-biased answer. If our world goes completely nuts, if heavy armor and fire power is needed, what battleship(s) would be activated first, second, third, forth.
If the world goes nuts, it is way too late to reactivate any of the Iowas. We would just have to fight with what we have.
War is kind of a "come as you are party".
In WWII, it took over 2 years before production of ships like the Essex carriers and Iowa battleships to fully come into play.
I would guess it would take 2 plus years to repair the ships and update the electronics. You would be updating the weapons these ships would carry. Out with the old and in with the new.
@ZaHandle we'd be eyebrow deep in bat guano .An interesting concept for a sci-fi movie: Of course, you would have to have Star Trek defensive shields, maybe a few other toys. Concept. The darkest days of World War 4. Almost every is in ashes. The mighty Constitution is almost the last US Commissioned Navy ship still afloat. In a daring bit of bravado, a hardened misfit crew rigs the ship to be the terror of the seas due to its construction, its almost impossible to detect, harder to track, with it super duper modern defensive shields, impossible to sink, who is there right mind would dare to go toe to toe with the modern "Flying Dutchman".
Getting funding to do anything on any battleship would be biggest challenge.
Honestly, I highly doubt that would activate any of the Iowas, it's all about high-tech missiles and ordnance.
I doubt any of them would be. The cost now of reactivating them would simply be too high. Not to mention the amount of time that would be needed. It would be years. The other major issue I could see would be metal fatigue. Those hulls and metal/steel on those ships has been there how many centuries?. I would imagine it is becoming brittle with age and wont have the strength it used to have. Also the hull that is exposed and in the water how thin now is the hull compared to what it was originally. The ships backbone I doubt now would withstand any type of explosion. Certainly not against modern weapons which it was never designed to defend against in the first place. Any of the Iowa's if reactivated at best would be a symbol not an effective weapon. They are better kept as they are, as a museum ship, as a remembrance and homage to all those who served on her and a nod to the times and history of old.
Yes please
Great video Ryan!! I have been wondering about the Wisconsin fire for some time.
Easy. Cause she's the bestest BB in the world!
Where are command histories for US Navy ships found? If at the National Archives, which record group?
What would it take to reactivate one of the battleships? Is it even possible?
If all 4 Iowas fought each other , which one would win? And would this answer change depending on which decade the fight occurred in
Great video I was wondering if there is a chance you could give your opinion on the movie under siege know it is the Missouri depicted thought it might be a good idea something bit different but still around the Iowa battleships
What caused the fire
Why wasn't Iowa or New Jersey used in the Gulf War?
Because it was in the best structural condition of all the Iowa's, that's why.
Will these documents ever be available for viewing online? If they are online where can they be viewed?
✌️
2:50 "this was not the rational".........goes on to admit it WAS the rational in the exact same paragraph.
A 16" is not twice the size of an 8".
The bore diameter of the gun is twice that of the 8" of course, but the real difference is shell weight. The superheavy 16" AP round weighed nearly 2000 lbs more than the superheavy 8" AP round (2,300 lb vs 335 lb) and would be delivered over a significantly longer range.
3:40 If they had shells and powder laying around for the battleship that didn’t need to be manufactured that would have been a huge cost savings in munitions. What are the dynamics with manpower on the battleship vs the 8 in. cruiser? How many of those cruisers were available, where were they, what material condition, what inventory did they have for the weapons and did the battleship serve for other support efforts? Medical, troop insertion/extraction etc.
They did. The battleships continued to use shells and powder bags manufactured during WWII through the 1990s. I believe the same is true of the cruisers.
@@duanem.1567 But the Battleships were nearing end of life and a lot of materials that were going to be useless if not expended. That’s a lot of propellant and shells that were just taking up warehouse space.
i have no idea and haven't watched the video yet, but most probably because!
Thick armor Why got sent too Gulf war
What's the device on Missouri's prop shaft(?) @4:42?
Can u do a video on the video game superbattleship
If you have ever been in the neighborhood through which one of her shells was flying, you will know the answer to your question ....
7:09 is that ice cream in a cooler on the right?😅
" The Most Decorated Battleship in U.S. History Gets an Overdue Face-Lift "
New York Times photo-article May 1, 2024
Wisconsin is kind of jinks wasn't her to that had the gun explosion to?
That was the Iowa.
Yep, Iowa. Not Wisconsin.
The misfortune of the Wisconsin is the damage received from a collision. It had to have a portion of the bow replaced from the hull of the never completed USS Kentucky.
Of course it was New Jersey, old Jersey was too old.
3:50...NOTE..?... 16-inch guns are three or four times larger than the 8 in guns of a Heavy Cruiser! 8 inches ×*E=MC2 9:57
'Genius' at work.
What upgrades would New Jersey need to be considered a dreadnaught
Being built 40 years earlier with 8 12" guns instead of 9 16", on a hull a third the size ? The first US dreadnoughts were the South Carolinas BB-26 and 27, New Jersey is BB-62; there's a few missing due to the treaties in the 1920s but she's still about 10 generations of upgrade from Dreadnought.
technically she is a dreadnought. as she has an all big gun main battery and the secondary battery is not actually intended to engage other battleships it was there mostly for AA work and to engage smaller targets IE destroyers and the like
Dreadnaught begat super dreadnaught begat eventually fast battleships such as the Iowas. So what you're asking is kind of like asking what upgrades a Tesla would need to be a Model T.
@@dennisfariello4852 good explanation.
Could the big guns be converted to auto loaders with today's tech 🤔. I ask this because it would have reduced manpower and cost of operation.
I think to do that, you would need to remove the old turrets and the magazines and replace them with a new design. You can guess the cost and time to design and test would have taken years.
NOT enough space in turret to make it autoloader. ALL new turrets required.
Do you want a crummy ol' Missouri or a brand NEW Jersey? I think the choice was obvious.
54th, 7 November 2023
Also New Jersey is closer to Vietnam than the other states so it would save money on gas to send New Jersey.
Really?
'Gas'.
@@kiereluurs1243 Filling up a battleship was expensive. Probably over a thousand gallons. So the cost of gas was important for the navy.
Cost of fuel oil would not factor. Speed to arrive in combat zone would absolutely be a considered factor though.
🥴These videos have so much potential to be great if you just made an outline and stuck to it. You ramble way too much and get off subject. Is this video about a fire or is it about why this ship was chosen?🤔
If you pay attention, the fire on Wisconsin is a factor on New Jersey being chosen to serve off Vietnam.
I actually enjoy the ramblings of one metric ship curator. People with a deep passion for their subject can make anything interesting. Why do I care about which ship was reactivated first? I don't, but Ryan and his team make it interesting!
What ramblings? He discusses the issues that kept the others from being reactivated. In Wisconsin’s case, it was the fire.
i know you said the room that was pictured on Wisconsin had been removed when she was reactivated, is there any evidence of the fire left aboard today? like warped armor plate, warped beams, etc.?
Off the top of my head this is a Guess something to do with timing🕜🕦🕣🕥🕧🕐🕑🕒
I absolutely adore the Iowa class battleships but their constant recommissioning after WWII (which they were frankly already obsolete then) just proves the adage that commanders are always preparing to fight the last war, not the next one.
Not really in this case. There were no new USN ships which had >5” rounds, so heavy caliber NGFS was limited to whatever ships of WWII vintage were in the fleet. Land attack cruise missiles weren’t available until Desert Storm, and then only in limited quantities (compared to today’s inventory). 288 TLAMs were launched in ODS, compared to 758 16” rounds from Missouri and 319 16” rounds from Wisconsin. The present widespread availability of TLAMs on even destroyers is a major reason that high caliber NGFS is unlikely to return in the future (at least in traditional form)
What was it that slowed down Uss Missouri?
USS Missouri ran aground in Chesapeake Bay in 1950 due to a navigation error, and it took weeks to free her due to being grounded while at high tide. I too would like to know what if any permanent damage was done.
@DK-gy7ll That was what I was wondering. I knew about what happened as far as the grounding. But was wondering what was slowing her down.