Did Frodo and Master Samwise meet again in the Undying Lands? | Tolkien Explained - Hobbit Day 2021!
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Hey Tolkien geeks!
Hobbit Day is the annual celebration of Bilbo and Frodo Baggins' in-universe birthday of September 22nd, celebrated worldwide by Tolkien fans, and observed by societies and smials across the globe. The Lord of the Rings TH-cam Fellowship celebrates this every year with the tradition of posting a playlist collaboration of Hobbit-centric content. This year's playlist is hosted by my friend @MemoryTroll (whom some of you may remember as the voice of Maedhros!): • Hobbit Day 2021 - Tolk...
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Of course Frodo and Sam met again, damn it. Imagine how damned lonely it would have been for poor Sam to turn up on Tol Eressea, only to find himself with a bunch of Elves (and maybe Gandalf), but no Frodo. Frodo also seems to think that Sam will eventually follow him... which suggests he waited.
They definitely deserve to be together in the end. ❤
And that is the way it should be!
I don't think Frodo would have died any sooner than he would have done in Middle Earth. His motivations for seeking Valinor were quite different to those of the Numenorians. He needed healing, was not looking for immortality. Being the only thing that dies would break the eternity seeking mortal souls. But Frodo wanted to live the rest of his life in peace, no more no less. So he was granted the privilege as a reward. Sam didn't need to go to Valinor to heal, his reward was meeting Frodo again and I like to think they both died shortly after meeting again.
I would like to think you're right about that!
I like to think they both died after falling asleep, leaning on each other on a bench after smoking pipe weed while they watched the sunrise in the east. Bros for life.
@@Soloong_Gaybowzer Wait, would there be pipe weed in Valinor?
Sam: One last smoke Mr. Frodo?
Frodo: Sure! You brought some?
Sam: No... wait what do you mean?
Frodo: They don't grow pipe weed here in Valinor...
Sam: ...
Sam: _Take me back! Take me back to the Shire!_
Three things you should have considered: 1) Arwen Undomiel, herself, passed her gift of staying a limited immortal to Frodo. This gift was first given to Elrond and Elros when they had to choose the paths of their souls upon dying. Their descendants were then given the same choice. Elrond chose to be tied to the fate of the elves and Elros chose to be tied to the fate of Men. Tolkein stated that Arwen was the second elf to choose as her ancestor did and remain with her husband. The ancestor in her case was Luthien Tinuvial. 2)Gandalf, himself, said that Bilbo, Frodo AND Sam had been marked/changed by the Ring forever as had the wearers of the 3 elven rings. Because of this they would be allowed to go to the Undying Lands as a reward for their service to the cause of Good. 3) In the appendix that stated the fates of the Fellowship of the Ring in after years Frodo (and Bilbo) was said to have arrived at the Undying Lands and taken to the Gardens of Nienna by Gandalf and healed of the injuries he suffered from the Witch King and from Shelob.
I like to think that Sam and Frodo has one more evening, perhaps with a bottle of old Winyards, stowed away by Frodo, on the shores of Valinor, laughing and reminiscing about the times they share.
It is said by Earwon to Frodo that if you still suffer from your wounds you may take my place in the undying lands. Obviously she knew that if Frodo couldn't find healing and peace in Middle Earth, then her giving him the gift of dwelling there would finally heal him. I xont think she would have done and said what she did if he was going to be overwhelmed and basically destroyed if he went there. Obviously she knew he would find healing and peace.
She gave him her seat on the ship. Nothing more. She could not effect any change in his created nature.
Happy Hobbit Day brother, and great job with this video! It gives me such comfort to believe that they met in the West in the end.
Happy Hobbit Day Yoystan! 🙌🏻
As much as I understood, neither of them went to Valinor, at least not permanently.
They went to Aman, but an isolated island in front of the continent that makes part of. Let me know if I misunderstood something.
Did not realize today was Hobbit Day, but I saw Voice of Geekdom posted and I watched
The good thing about books is that you can fill in any missing information in any way that makes you happy.
I like the middle ground, for Frodo to be healed but to age normally afterwards and to meet with Sam once more.
As a kid, I always assumed Bilbo, Frodo and Sam were st least given a choice to live in Valinor forever. Gimli as well. Not canon I know but I still like to believe that.
I second that motion!!! 🤠👍
I always imagined that Bilbo died peacefully and willingly, just as his boat reached the undying lands, having seen Valinor with his own eyes. I also like to think that Frodo was granted a long and peaceful life in valinor, long enough to greet sam one last time. They both died happy and joyfully soon after, being granted the boon of seeing each other one final time.
THIS
i think they maybe stayed together much more time than we think, if the power of a maia was able to give more than 500 additional years of life to a mortal we can imagine the valar was also able to bless them with a very long life if the wanted to
Here is another possibility: perhaps the Valar granted an extended lifespan to Frodo and Sam, in recognition of their great service in defence of the free peoples of Middle Earth and the overthrow of Sauron. After all, they did this for the Dunedain who had fought with the Eldar against Morgoth, during the First Age. It's true, the message of Manwe to the Numenoreans warns that mortals would "wither and grow weary" in the strong light of Aman - but I think this may refer to Valinor itself, where the Valar themselves reside, as opposed to Tol Eressea, which is inhabited only by Elves. In any case, it's hard to believe that Frodo and Sam would have been granted the great privilege of passage to the undying lands, if this would inevitably result in weariness, suffering and untimely death! It's made very clear, on the contrary, that this journey is a blessing for them and an opportunity for healing and recovery. For these reasons, it seems more likely than not that Frodo and Sam were indeed reunited in Tol Eressea.
I agree! They probably had lifespans akin to Elros.
I always assumed Frodo was still around by the time Sam went to Valinor. Even as a kid, I was aware that hobbits would eventually die, even there, but I operated under the assumption that the lifespans of mortal beings who were there by invitation and with the blessing of the Valar (specifically Bilbo, Frodo, Sam, and Gimli) would approximately double in length there. My position on Manwe's warning to the Numenoreans was that in that case, as they would have rebelliously forced their way to Valinor under their own power, the land and those who ruled it would oppose them, and thus it would shorten their days. In the case of the Ringbearers, they were there by invitation for the purpose of being rested and healed. Thus my theory that their lives would be prolonged, though not made eternal.
That is a possibility, but it is not anywhere backed up by evidence in the text. I guess we'll never know...
I don't think so. True, they went to be healed; the ring had 'scarred their spirit' thus, they were able to let go and share in "The Gift of Men" and depart the world. Personally, I believe that they did meet again, but not in Arda, but rather in the Timeless Halls at the feet of Eru himself!
@@Elurin Also once they had healed as much was possible ,they could once again be happy and enjoyed the little things in life again, without the burdens they carried.time is a great healer they say.
I felt what manwë way meant was that it would seem like mortals aged in valinor quicker because like he said, every one but the mortals are immortal, and the hollowed the land so that everything else is also endless. And time Flys when your having fun!
I like to think, that Frodo learned to live with his wound, and got to see Sam again.
Most people have sorrows and problems, they have to learn to deal with, and sometimes, you need a little help, just like Frodo did. And in the end, it may become less difficult to live your life. "And that is an encouraging thought, isn't it?"
Have you ever taken morphine? I imagine The Undying Lands feels like that.
I hope so. I’ve been chronically ill since I was 11. A break in my tailbone and some complications started me down the road on it. At 31 I’ve broken it AGAIN and I keep… I don’t know. Some stuff is coming up for me about how that one event changed my life. But maybe It’s an opportunity to grow, to examine how we got to where we are. And eventually, that cycle doesn’t yield any new results, hits less hard.
I’ve always loved stories where people become accustomed to their physical disabilities or complications rather than using them as some vehicle for self growth only to be overcome. I like… stepping into yourself, who you really are, BECAUSE of what parts of you being wounded reveals. I’d not be the empathetic person I am today without my pain, there’s just no way. Does it mean that if my life was a movie, I’d get better just about now, as a reward for personal growth and to show that I was “strong enough to overcome?” Sure. But it’s harder to keep going and never get better, have no reason to think things will change (no new treatments being approved on the horizon, for example) and just dwell in the suck.
There’s three phases to long lasting hurt, regardless of what kind it is, physical, mental, whatever. There’s swimming for shore, trying and fighting to get back to where you were and the loved ones who are safely on dry land. There’s being swamped, when you’re overwhelmed by your issue, and you are in danger of drowning and doing whatever you can to get through moment to moment. And then There’s floating. It seems like you’ve maybe given up; you’re not actively swimming for shore. But it’s because you’re exhausted and it is no sprint to try to return to normal. You have to surrender some control and just float and hope things will improve because you’re tired and you’ve done all you can do. Whether the next phase will be swimming for shore, again, or being swamped, again, depends.
Dwelling in the suck of that trifecta, and not making one out to be good or more noble than the others or whatever… that’s impactful storytelling that’s more accurate to life with some long term ever-present wound that will not allow you peace. The weight doesn’t get lighter. You get stronger to carry the weight. That’s something to celebrate, no healing, no curing necessary.
I remember reading before that time passes alot slower in the undying lands. So frodo,sam and everyone else eventually got to reunite.
If Eru had no special plans for the very small group of mortal characters (Bilbo, Frodo, Samwise, and Gimili) that were allowed to travel to Aman, then they would have been under the same ban as all other mortal creatures. The evidence you're searching for is in that exception. Just as it was for the human you spoke of from The Silmarillion -- that exception seems to be foreshadowing of the exception that would be made at the end of the third age (beginning of the fourth age) for the other four.
eru is the only one able to gives immortality but definitly not the only one powerfull enough to bless a mortel with a very long life, if the power of sauron canb make it their no reason manwe can t
Contrary to Frodo and Bilbo, Sam has not been wounded by the Ring. In fact, he lived a full and happy life after Frodo's departure. Therefore, his motivation to go to Valinor was not to get some healing. He was only following Frodo. It is certain though that the Hobbits died there, that they were not made immortal. I also believe that, as Manwë's emissary said, that their days were shortened, but blissful. However, who knows how time flows in Valinor? While the Fellowship rested in Lothlórien for a few days, a full month or more had passed in the outside world. For all we know, only 30 years may have passed while Sam lived his 60 years with his wife. So, maybe Sam was able to meet Frodo again in Tol Eressëa and they lived together for a few years before they died peacefully.
Makes sense.
An excellent point on the passing of time being variable between the lands!
I think because Frodo was called and welcomed to travel the Straight Road he did not find weariness and withering in the Undying Lands, but healing and joy for the rest of his natural life. And that life span included meeting Sam again before the end. After which, Sam, being younger, lingered a while to hear all the tales and songs the elves could share, his great reward and bliss, before his passing out of the world.
Setting the question of immortality aside, Frodo was only 12 years older than Sam. When Sam left the Shire for the last time he was 102 so Frodo would have been 114. I see no reason that these two old hobbits wouldn't see each other again in the Undying Lands. Although it is likely that Bilbo had passed on.
Great video, Dan! I like to think that Frodo and Sam were reunited for a brief time and that they too passed in the Shire reckoning 1483, the same as Merry and Pippen and that all of their thoughts were on each other as they strayed out of thought and time. Happy Hobbit Day, my friend!
I have always believed that yes, Frodo and Sam did meet again and lived the rest of their long lives together in peace and healing comfort.
As mortals the hobbits would all end up "beyond the circles of the world", as would Aragorn and Arwen, and Beren and Luthien. They would all receive the Gift of Eru Illuvatar to Men. If that is an actual 'place', then they would re-unite anyway. Tolkien would not want "beyond the circles of the world" to be anything other than a great good place --of unknown location.
Definitely. Well said!
I'd like to point out the reason I don't think Frodo and Bilbo (and for that matter, Sam, or Gimli) would have withered in the Uttermost West: _They had permission to go._ The Numenoreans who spoke out against The Ban of the Valar had no such leave, and would have ultimately found it a torment. Meanwhile, I can see Bilbo, Frodo, Sam, and Gimli at ease, enjoying their final days alive in the Hallowed Lands, untroubled by the aches and pains of old wounds and old age.
I'm reminded of the apple tree from C.S. Lewis's _The Magician's Nephew_, whose apples would give you Life--but if you ate them without leave, that life would become torment. If, however, you got permission (Digory got permission to feed one to his mom), that life would be good. Remember, if Digory hadn't gotten permission, there would come a time where both he and his mother wished she'd died.
I was going to comment something like this. It seems like Manwe's warning was against the Numenoreans seizing what wasn't theirs, and I think it's a mistake to apply it to Frodo.
@@harringt100 except that Manwe said that the only thing special about Valinor is the people in it, and that a mortal who lived there would remain exactly as they would if they were anywhere else
The idea that the mortal members of the Fellowship went Tol Eressea requires a lot less mental contortions than having them to Aman proper. While there is no reason to believe their lives would be lengthened artificially, I can see an impact on their souls much like Lothlorien or Rivendell: time doesn't stop, you just don't notice it. I can see Sam and Frodo having a brief, joyous time together, but certainly they would have been long gone by the time Gimli and Legolas showed up.
Frodo specifically says that Sam can come to the undying lands someday because he was briefly a ring-bearer. I assumed that having the power of one of the Ainur flow through you, even briefly or indirectly, was enough to inoculate you from the damaging effects of the undying lands.
I thought it was heavily inferred by Gandalf that because of the corruption of the ring on Bilbo, Frodo, and Sam that they where to be allowed there to heal from it. I would take that to mean the shortened lifespan would not apply so Sam And Frodo did meet again. It just leaves open the question if they where granted the extended life.
the lord of the rings trilogy was immensely entertaining ,conjuring all the emotions and a mix of them, but the appendices where (Imo) extremely interesting, informative and equally entertaining and I recommend reading them after the main story ends.its like two books in one.J.R.R.T. most definitely created a whole world and heaven.
I think it’s worth to mention an aspect from the lord of the ring story. When the Fellowship stayed in Lothlorien, time passed different than normal. They were in Lothlorien for quite a while. The way it is told, sounds a lot like time distortion to me. Perhaps this “time distortion” is an echo of the life Galadriel lived in valinor, at the beginning of her life. And perhaps this time distortion gives the mortal people in valinor a version of long life. This idea gives me hope, for a reunion between Frodo and Samwise.
Wow, I've watched many of your videos, and this is the one that brought tears to my eyes. Bravo!
I used to read hobbit and LOTR to my children My son's birthday was September 24 He wanted to change his birthday to September 22 just like Billbo and Frodo
Happy Hobbit Day, VoG!
You too, Matt!
Great idea for hobbit day man! Happy hobbit day !
"Don't go where I can't follow" I definitely believe they met again and also I discovered the unpublished epilogue recently and how Sam told his secret to Elanor that Frodo had said to him that his time would come to go there too and Sam could wait for that day. I believe the elves would accommodate Frodo and Sam's reunion there. Frodo would not have said such things or given false hope if he were not there when Sam arrived. I like to believe that Frodo found his peace and healing and waited for Sam as Sam did him. Other people in the comments have written better analysis but basically I've always believed they reunite there, no matter for how long.
Maybe all the non-elves that go to the undying lands are on the brink of death, hence being given the special permission to go there. Their death will come before they have a chance to experience the negative effects of mortals living in the undying lands. Frodo was the only one who wasn't old when he sailed to the undying lands, but he was hurt/sick. Everyone else was fairly old when they set out. Just a quick thought.
I imagine them reunited, restored and eternal.
I think that the Valar gave them "special grace" which allowed Bilbo, Frodo and Sam to heal so they could live full lives, but eventually embracing the "gift of men" (mortality) and leave the circles of the world. Gimli would also receive that grace so that he could be with Legolas and also look upon the beauty that is Galadriel. As he is a creation of Aule, (with Eru giving the Dwarves life with the flame imperishable) he may have that opportunity to stay in the Undying lands until the world is remade
Yes ♥️ I am here for Hobbit Day ♥️
My own take would be that some sort of 'dispensation' was given to Frodo, Bilbo, and Sam by Eru Himself via Manwe, which did two things; first, lifespans extended for the purpose of healing, and secondly, the ability to, like Aragorn, pass away at will.
I believe they met again, and then, as they journeyed together to Mordor, they took the final journey together as well.
As for Gimli. Im sure he spent his last days as a dwarf of his nature would, making beautiful things to show his love of the beauty around him.
The undying lands are essentially heaven so, at least in my own head cannon, Sam frodo Bilbo gimli and legolas are all partying to this very day and that is a very comforting thought
Happy Hobbit Day & I love the video & to be honest I'm always looking forward to your videos especially your Silmarillion series ~ Loving it. Can we expect another one soon & how many more are you doing? Keep up the amazing work my friend!
Thank you! And I will be doing the whole book, of course, however many videos that takes. The next chapter, "Of Maeglin", will be 2-3 videos again. I had to take on some software work recently, to pay the bills, which has temporarily slowed down work on the channel quite a bit. I wish I could work on this full time, but the channel is just not there yet, unfortunately...
I think Frodo went to Tol Eressea in the hopes that the Elves who lived there had some healing power that could allow him to lessen his pain and despair. I'd like to think he did, but that it probably did not enhance his lifespan at all. Bilbo probably went for a similar reason, to have the haunting of the Ring finally removed from him, so he could die in peace. Sam just went mainly because I think he missed his friend, but ultimately was also seeking peace of mind in his dying days. I do not think the Hobbits were craving or expecting immortality, just relief from a broken body or heart before death.
I believe illuvitar, who has a sense of justice and love, would never be so cruel as to keep sam and, Frodo apart:) he’s a benevolent entity, going out of his was for people who proved their worth to him:)
Happy (late) Hobbit Day!
I honestly can't say which version I prefer least -- Sam arriving in Valinor just in time to say goodbye to Frodo again, or finally "following" Frodo after his work in the Shire was done but never getting the closure of reuniting with him. Now if you'll excuse me, there seems to be something in my eye....
Well, Frodo would have been 113 years old. Nowhere near the lifespan of his direct ancestor, Gerontius "the old" Took, who lived to 130. It's safe to imagine that Frodo would have lived a few years with Sam in Aman before passing.
Could the Valar protect mortals from the withering effects of Aman? I think so. They were able to, with Eru's permission, change the nature of Tuor and to grant the half-elven the freedom to choose. I like to think, then, that Frodo, Sam, Bilbo and Gimli would have all at least lived a natural life in Aman, in ideal conditions. How old can a person live with great healers and perfect nutrition, in a land devoid of disease?
No I think Frodo would have been a fairly robust 113 years old when Sam arrived, and would have lived a few more years after that, perhaps as many as ten or twenty, before he passed. Sam, I think, long rested and missing his friend, would have himself laid down and passed shortly after that.
Then, friends for life, the two of them would have passed beyond the circles of the world, and there met with Merry, Pippin and Bilbo. Tolkien was Catholic, and I do not think he would have given his five wonderful hobbits and all their other mortal friends anything less than paradise after death.
My opinion is that the Valar, if they wanted to, could shield a mortal from the withering effects of their own blazing immortality, and I don't see why they wouldn't do this for Frodo. He came for healing, with their dispensation, and I doubt they would have wanted him to take harm where he has come for restoration. This would not give Frodo immortality, he would still live only a natural hobbit life (somewhat but probably only slightly affected by his earlier bearing of the ring), but I think there is every reason to believe that end came no faster in Valinor for him (I also don't agree that for some odd reason Frodo would have been limited to Tol Eressea. Why? and why suppose that?).
I have wanted clarity of that issue for a long time. I initially thought that Bilbo, Frodo, Sam, and Gimli could only land in Tol Eressea, but I have heard and read convincing arguments that they could enter Valinor. If Frodo can not receive relief from his annual suffering in the waters of Lorien, then he will certainly die before Sam arrives. I believe that Eru is very much like the God of the Bible, so I think He would at least allow Frodo to be healed in Lorien before returning to Tol Eressea, if he is not allowed in Valinor to begin with.
@@Enerdhil I agree. Especially when Tolkien refers to Eru as "the one free agent in the World" (I'm paraphrasing) : as the World's Maker, and as the one who appointed Frodo to his task (though Frodo still chose his own path), I believe He could offer them true rest in Valinor by special grace.
Although, being in Tol Erresëa would already be a pretty sweet deal, ngl ^^
@@LeHobbitFan
Maybe Eru will give Irmo special permission to travel to Tol Eressea to heal Frodo. I worry that the fate of Frodo will be like that of Miriel.😢
@@Enerdhil But Frodo is a mortal and I would think eventually go to wherever men did. We know where Miriel ended up.
@@istari0
My point is that even the best of the Valar of Healing could not remove the deep anguish from Muriel's heart. Frodo's condition is very similar. Both of these two would be seriously thinking of suicide if it were a modern story. Without healing, Frodo would be far happier spending an extra 60-70 years with Sam in the Shire.
Unbelievable read and breakdown of the Greatest of Stories of all time. No equal. Made my Day!
I think that the hobits and Gimli who travelled to the undying lands where healed and lived in peace for a very long time there, before they died. Why would they be brought there to directly die. Then they could have done that in Middle Earth. Gandalf, Galadriel and Elrond where different. Maybe with the exception on Elrond who was an half elf. But Gandalf and Galadriel "went home" since they were immortal.
It think that it's implicit in Sam sailing west. He had such a large family that there would need to have been a good reason to leave them behind.
What bothers me about the Valar is that Bilbo, Mostly Frodo and somewhat Sam hold a ring with powers far beyond them. Powers that only few can handle. Little Hobbits just minding there business get thrusted into an eternal battle that started with Valar vs. Melkor. Good job Frodo, Bilbo and Sam for using all of your Hobbit strength to defeat a Servant of Melkor, however your fate is still death, while the rest of the Elves fled and they get to live on with us until end of time. I mean really no one went to Eru and said "Hey can we give them a pass, look at what they have done"
Thanks Dan for this wonderful Hobbit Day gift, fit for a Baggins.😁
A world I wish to live in!
Wonderful channel... Tolkien taught us to love a whimsical philosophy.... less gothic dogma, more nirvana. Aman is a more loving heaven without hell.
Of course the Numenoreans would whither and fade as moths, their reasoning for going across the sea was conquest and glory of which none awaited. Bilbo, Frodo, Samwise, and Gimli were given special status, so who knows.
I see them all in their prime, a gift.
Especially when you consider that Arwen is also giving up her immortality to be with her husband. But in granting the ring bearers passage, it would seem that she is also granting them her lifespan.
Good Analysis, thank you
Yes they met! I love your channel!
You were just WAITING to twist a knife in my heart, weren't you?
I'm ashamed to know that I didn't know about this later part of Sam's story though I knew of his mayoral role and family.
My primary question is does time pass the same in this world as the world creation and developing itself is rather wibbly wobbly? If time is warped if not the matter of literal eternal life maybe it just seeming so as a year is stretched out longer leading to the illusion of greater longevity? But I admit that I sincerely hope that the land brought Frodo some peace and that he's able to welcome his old friend for his final days.
WHOO HOO! Congrats on going public. I may or may not have made some wiggle room for the anouncement. ;)
Very interesting! I'd never given much thought to the way Valinor would operate on mortal beings... Happy Hobbit Day!
Mortals don't get immortality in Valinor, the Numenorians were tricked into believing this by Sauron. Manwe's message meant that for a mortal living in a land where literally everyone and everything stayed the same and only you aged, it would seem to you like you were aging quickly. Objectively the physical aging process didn't speed up or get put on fast forward, Frodo aged at the same rate as all the other Hobbits back in Middle Earth, it is just the perception of aging in a land where only you age. With that in mind I think Sam and Frodo were reunited, obviously not Bilbo he would have long since passed away. I don't think Gimli and Legolas would have reunited with Sam and Frodo though - as they left Middle Earth after King Elassar died and he reigned for 120 years - dying at 210, which is a shame. Re the aging thing - I always wondered what would be a problem for say a community of men to love together away from Elves on Valinor. They would age together and have children etc so whats the problem. I think the main reason is the Valar really didn't care about men and thought they didn't matter. They had already up and left men in Middle Earth to cope with Morgoth and Sauron on their own while they had gone and invited Elves to Valinor for the reason of getting away from Morgoth. They just wanted their island to be for Elves and not men, Elves were the VIPs.
They may have offered healing to Frodo. The damage from the evil he indured was not the same as Turin's. The Valar do seem able to change the fates of individuals that come to thier land after world changing events. I like to think the matter of a few years could also be made up by the land itself because the say "it would be of "little' help" meaning it would help but not much. Also the ring could have prolonged his life in some way even after its destruction as surley as his wound still hurt him and merry and pippen grew permanetly taller. They don't have to meet but I think Sams presence would be more healing than anything the Valar could come with. They might know that and orchestrate that thru wind and dreams to inspire Sam with the achknowledgment he has the right to pass into the West and the slight bending of mortal fate. I think they would still be mortal though.
Just discovered your channel mate. Really great stuff.
Cheers!
I don’t agree.
Frodo was granted a stay in Valinor to heal from his wounds. I think to be reunited with Sam would be part of that healing.
That Frodo would have 'withered and died like a moth in too bright a light' more quickly in Aman than in Middle Earth, by analogy to Manwe's warning to Ar Pharazon that this would be the fate of men who went to Aman, seems to me contrary to the whole atmosphere of the dealings of the Powers with mortals, in the legendarium. Frodo (and later probably Samwise) were granted a time in the Blessed Realm by a grace and as a reward for their efforts towards the destruction of the Ring, and for the healing of the wounds they suffered from its evil. The Numenorians, in stark contrast, went to Valinor as an act of rebellion and aggression, in order to take its blessings by force. The gift of the Blessed realm would have given healing to Frodo before his death; it would have brought destruction and a curse to the Numenoreans, as foreseen by Manwe, if they had not be buried under falling mountains during the changing of the world by Iluvatar, which even Manwe had not foreseen.
There's an article somewhere entitled, What Tolkien Thought of Bilbo and Frodo." In one of his letters Tolkien says that, "Frodo must eventually, 'pass away.' He also says something about Frodo being no longer a Hobbit, having been, "broken by a burden of horror and fear and remade into something quite different." I always imagine Frodo as a person who is very graceful (and gracious) who belongs in a fairy tail and not in real life.
Most of Tolkien's heroes are exceptional people who die when they are still legendary - not yet old and senile. Think of Aragorn, Hurín, Turín, and Beren.
But even if I do believe that Frodo dies not long after Bilbo, I think Tolkien would have them all reunite in another life, including Rose and Frodo's parents.
Amazing video Dan! I am very much inclined towards the idea of having a Miyazaki or Shinkai directed animated movie about Samwise’s last journey
I'd like to think that even if Frodo died, his soul would choose to wait in the Halls of Mandos for Sam, and the two would set off together to meet whatever secret destiny Eru reserved for mortals. Bros to the end and beyond.
Gandalf loved Frodo (and Bilbo) too much to allow him to go west if it would be harmful. I suspect they lived a blissful life in Aman then received the gift of Eru.
Super job and very enjoyable! It's quite interesting that Sam went to the Grey Havens before his life could end on Middle Earth. Frodo did say something earlier about this. Something along the lines of Sam being able to do this since he was a ringbearer, albeit for a shorter time. Sam had many years to think about what to do and maybe did not think about it too much until his own wife passed away. The fact that Frodo was not as esteemed as Sam thought right by Shirefolk, it seemed very likely that he'd want to see him again. I don't know who made the entry in the Red Book but I expect it was his oldest child and daughter. Not knowing exactly is really nice though. There will always be things that we can think about but not really KNOW. Did Sam and Frodo link up again? I sure think so. Not being able to prove it in the text is okay.
Based on WWI British Army Batman, Sam represented the very best of Hobbits. Not coming from a Shire 'landed gentry' family, he got to this status by being Frodo's heir. He earned every comfort that his heirship got him. Out of everyone who either considered (folks like Aragorn, Galadriel, Gandalf, and even Boromir) considered the ring and out of those who ever wore it, it did not have any bad effects on Sam. He even quickly surmised at some point that the ring was trying to trick him. Why didn't it work? Because of the quality of his excellent character I think.
Even how he served as Mayor 7 times is interesting to be and the perfect thing for someone who is a natural servant who went on to be a servant leader.
I also wonder who made the note in the Red Book about Legolas taking Gimli with him to the West. I'd also guess that Elanor likely made this note. The Hobbits of the Shire--Sam included--did hear about the departures of the Elves early on in LoTR. It makes one wonder how long that port and the ship building there continued. We'll never know but sure fun to consider!
Cheers from Colorado.
Numenoreans themselves were granted longer lifespans than other Men even without going all the way to Aman. The Valar and/or Eru being able to grant extended life, as in the grand scheme of things this does not change very much about the fate of the spirit. Longevity and immortality are different things. The Men of Numenor still shared the Gift of Men with the shorter-lived humans of Middle Earth. Which is why they came to resent the Elves and the Ainur. But what this comes down to is that Bilbo, Frodo, Sam and Gimli might have lived a bit longer in Aman as a reward for their actions. Much as the Numenroeans were gifted with longer lives for their ancient service against the Darkness.
Frodo and Sam both lived in the undying lans until the last battle, yet to be fought. They are destined to be mortal , and must at some point in the life of Arda die, but the the Valor has grace to extend life or postpone death
about non elves dying quicker in the undying lands I think that was just for the numanorians and basically their desire for going and what they thought, it is that the disappointment would cause them to die sooner, but frodo and the others went for good reasons.
love finding another tolkien homie channel.
For Frodo who didn't care for the opposite sex it's no big deal to leave but Sam had children and grand children so even if he left he must have wanted to die among his kin.
In my opinion, if anyone in the world deserved divine intervention it would be the two who saved it. There is a Canon precedent for God granting a mortal immortality. If he did it in one case, I believe he would do it for others.
Happy Hobbit day!
You are such a likeable bloke, Dan. Every time I hear your voice, it feels like being at a friend's place. We Tolkien geeks can seem like introverted people from the outside but when we gather our exchange is all the more vivid and emotionally profound.
I do believe you're the only TH-cam Tolkienist to address at any length the specific point about a putative reuniting of Frodo and Sam in the Undying Lands (either on Tol Eressëa or in Aman). Manwë's messengers did make it very clear to the Númenoreans that a mortal exposed to the elysian intensity of the Undying Lands would live blissfully but not as long as they might otherwise do in Middle Earth. Thus although Frodo would've been healed of his hurts, he would most likely not have lived long enough to see Sam's arrival.
I'd like to think that all of the mortals that ended up in tol eressea saw each other before passing. Not bilbo he was super old already.
Although I dunno when exactly gimli shows up... being a dwarf he lived alot longer than Hobbits. But I'd like to think Sam frodo gimli and legolas got to see each other before the mortals died.
The promise of reunion is the only thing which would motivate Sam to sail for Valinor. The promise of spiritual healing was the reason Frodo and Bilbo both went. The promise of immortal life doesn't seem to be a good motive for going. The elves went because they belonged to the Valar. Their doom was to be forever bound to the earth. The promise of eventual death given to men (and dwarves and hobbits) was to be released from the earth. I can only suppose that their reward was to be with Iluvatar, whatever that entails.
My only question for the late Tolkien is to wonder when Cirdan left since he is reported to be the only one who could build ships that could make it to Valinor. Did he build the boat that Sam sailed on? Did he build the boat that Legolas and Gimli sailed on? Did he leave them behind for these to find or was he the last elf to leave after the last of these had set sail? Did anyone after he left have special permission to take any old boat and aided by Ulmo?
We can't say exactly what year it was that Círdan left, but he most likely left on the Last Ship, along with Celeborn, based upon the "Note on the Shire Records" from the prologue to The Lord of the Rings.
Legolas built a ship.
It doesn't make sense that the hobbits and Gimli would be given the grace to go to the west just to whither and die sooner. Maybe for Frodo to be healed, but for the others it would be pointless unless they were granted immortality.
As for Tuor, his fate being sundered from the fate of men, which is to die, sounds pretty conclusive that he became immortal.
Quite so Mr Davidson.
You obviously missed an important point, but Ar Pharazon would certainly have agreed with you. Ageing and death were not a punishment for mortals, nor did they mean they were somehow "less than" the elves. Tolkien described mortality as "The gift of men." The Valar would certain not have "granted immortality" to a mortal because they understood it would actually be a punishment. Furthermore, the Valar did not have the power or the authority to deny the "gift" to mortals.
Tuor was a very different case, and if he indeed became immortal and was counted among the race of the elves that was by the grace of Iluvatar, not the Valar.
As for Gimli: The dwarves were a totally different critter from elves OR men. "Moral", yes, but of their fate after death nobody knew. Not even the Valar.
Frodo and Sam did not go to Valinor. They went to the isle of Tol Eressea, in the Bay of Eldamar, to be "healed" in their final years. They did NOT become immortal.
@@mqbitsko25 Exactly, it is the Fate of Mortal Man to find no rest within the Circles of the World, both the Hobbits and Gimli could not dwell in Aman and find eternal peace, their spirits longed for something Greater, I think. Their fate lies in the Timeless Halls at the Feet of Eru
If sam doesn't meet frodo in aman then what's the point of him going? it seems he would have been happier at home. It just doesn't seem logical to put sams travel to aman in there if it wern't implied he would meet frodo again, much like gimli and galadriel.
Here is my thought for the limited value of its worth.
I believe the message of Manweë to the king, being written in the days of their pride and fall, was a commentary as to how those specific men would suffer for their folly. We do know that this was not the case for every individual or the half-elven would have all suffered an equally terrible fate.
Rather, I believe that it is actually rather the more likely that the gift of Arwen was of more than the mere granting of passage to the immortal lands, but actually to have their fates joined with those very beings. And thus their fates would be sundered from those of their kindred. This also seems to likely be the case of Gimli.
Which author wrote that the doom found was that which men brought with them? Would this not have likely been the case here as well? Those who had labored with no expectation of relief now find relief, those sundered from their people due to burdens beyond the power of mortals find for themselves a people from whom they shall never be sundered, and those who never sought for an extension of their lives, but only a healing of their greatest hurts are granted both endless life and complete healing. And thus they remain until the world begins the next great song of Illuvitár.
Good vid, keep the good work.
They spit roast sooo many elven maidens. It was called a "Shire BBQ". Sometimes Bilbo would even show up.
Just found this and have been intrigued on the fate of the 3 ring bearers. Both Tolkien and his close friend C. S. Lewis were Christians (Catholic and Church of England respectively) and their books (Ring series and Narnia) are based on their faith and the Bible. In the Bible, two people, Enoch and Elijah are taken to heaven without experiencing death. The three hobbits and Gimli could be his version of being taken up without death. We know they were taken up, but exactly what that means is unknowable by us here. Whether they stay there till the earth is remade or just visit for a while is unknown. As some have said above, dwarves, humans, and hobbits are mortal as designed by Eru. He knew about the dwarves even before they were created and were in his plans from the beginning and all three races would share the gift of Eru. I think all four would have been there together and left to be with Eru together when called by Eru.
I think there is no answer to the question. However if Tolkien actually wrote the story, then I imagine he would have Sam and Frodo meet just when Frodo is on his deathbed. That's a very Tolkienesque ending.
I think since Eru is Tolkien’s Godlike character, and he did appoint Frodo to the task, there’s a saying that comes to mind about God. “He won’t bring you to it if He won’t’t bring you through it.” I think Frodo definitely got healed of the wound he suffered from. Otherwise… I can see the Valinor being curious enough about him and his little band of friends to maybe allow him some extra time.
Especially if those with foresight saw Sam coming. How sad to get there and your friend be dead, or close to death. Give them a couple decades to kick around and tell their tales and learn. If Sam geeked out over Elves, IMAGINE him with a Vala! 🤣 Not having had the elves at their feet learning for some time, I think certain Vala would be entertained, and it and the bearer status of it all would merit a stay of execution, as it were.
I imagine Aman would be an ideal place to live. Great healers, excellent nutrition, no disease. Only old age would have been able to claim anyone who lived there, and Frodo's ancestor Gerontius survived to 130 in less than ideal conditions. With that in mind, Frodo and Sam could have had as many as ten or twenty years together in Aman, if not a bit more, and by that time, Sam would himself would probably be ready to go.
Oh yeah Sam and frodo spent their's finally days reaching around each others.
Fantastic News about the channel:
I got a theory I've already told in a comment on a Men of the West video (tell me what you think)
I created that theory for myself on the first reading of the Silmarillion:
*It was Ulmo who gave Faramir the dream*
There were too many similarities (to Tuor/Turgon/Finrod for instance):
Boromir speaks at the Council of Elrond..."when the Enemy returned our folk were driven from ITHILIEN...I was in the company that held the bridge (at Osgiliath, hence the river).
*FOR ON THE EVE ON THE SUDDEN AUSSAULT*, a dream came to my brother in a troubled sleep."
They were at the river Anduin, at the bridge of Osgiliath when the first time Faramir dreamt the summons to Imladris.
Then, of course the way the message is made. "Go some place" (Tuor anyone?)
Then of course we have that sentence here, following right after: "the eastern sky grew dark and in THE WEST A PALE LIGHT LINGERED (The WEST, anyone?), and ouf it I heard a voice, remote but clear."
Remote but clear...Ulmo still had powers if not very strong in the Anduin river. Remote might also refer to his deep voice, too deep for humans....
Tell me what you think 😊
Yes, I completely agree, and have suspected this myself for a long time. There are a few places in the story of The Lord of the Rings that we can detect the influence of the Valar, and this is one of them IMO. Another is when the wind changes direction to blow from the West in the Battle of Pelennor Fields -- definite Manwë action going on... 🦅
@@VoiceofGeekdom yesss, I just wanted to tell that add that as well 😊♥️🦅
I find it likely that Frodo lived on in peace, perhaps given the same gift of the Numenoreans of old: knowing the time of his death so he could ready himself. And when Samwise arrived they were honored and were able to spend some small amount together f time together, and then passed. Or perhaps that Frodo died shortly after arriving in Aman, but his spirit did not pass through the halls of Mandos, but lingered a while, and a new form was crafted for him for a time so that he could spend time with Sam, and that on Sam’s death, so passed Frodo into that fate of which not even the Valar know.
Please accept this gratuitous comment to help your analytics. I would like to think that the healing skills/gifts in the West eclipsed those of Elrond so that the two were reunited. So much of the ending of The Return of the King and the appendices is bittersweet, as is much of life. The Professor was a Master.
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Frodo certainly would have received significant healing in the West, that much is clear!
I like to think that the hobbits did indeed become immortal, or at least live a greatly extended life, and have the opportunity to reunite.
Happy Hobbit Day! 2021!
i'd wish that tolkien not even allowed himself for thinking of an answer. though i'd also wish for him to live longer to continue his immeasurable universe just a bit further
Gandalf at one point saw that frodo would become a wraith like being but filled with a clear light.
So he may no longer be mortal in the normal sense.
I’ve always sort of believed that the fellowship all waited for each other in Valinor and that once their meeting was complete, the ring bearers were allowed direct entrance to the Halls of Mandos. . . Sort of as if they went to whatever is next but were rewarded with not having to “die“ to get there.
So, if we take it that Frodo, Sam, and Gimli retained their mortality, then that means Legolas was the last remaining member of the Fellowship, waiting I suppose until the end of the world where all will be changed, and perhaps he will finally see his friends again.
Good grief, I hope he made friends with Elrond. Those two would have a lot to talk about.
I think when you get on that boat and go to the undying lands you are in a version of heaven where you never die and you are healed completely and there is no anguish, sorrow, wars, etc....you are at full strength, knowledgeable, and at peace with all there and yourself.
Bilbo stepped off of the ship in Aman, walked through it to the Halls of Mandos, and from there to the Farthest Shore, and from there into the Timeless Halls.
Frodo waited Valinor for Sam, and upon his arrival they walked the same path.
This may not be the proper forum, but what of Radagast and the Blue wizards?