Regarding the question at 29:20: "What is Delta radiation?" Delta radiation are the secondary electrons which are recoil particles from the initial ionization event brought about by the collision of the initial radiation particle with tissue. As kids in school we learned about alpha, beta, and gamma rays, and in that context a delta ray is a beta ray, but with a different name to signify that it originated from within the body due to the ionization event caused by the externally sourced radiation. If they are energetic enough they may cause secondary ionization events.
So good to see what is NASA is doing for preparations on deep space missions and missions do Mars. Very exciting times with NASA these days. And SpaceX as well.
The mellow trance soundtrack at 43:05 I feel is very distracting for this sort of subject matter. Nothing wrong with the music itself but in this context its just strange. Would be better without music.
At first glance a lead lined suit seems not a good idea but when in space it does not matter what the weight the net is no weight at all or weightless. Lead lined coveralls worn by astronauts in between earth and Mars does not seem like a bad idea.
It unfortunately is not a particularly good solution as it produces a lot of secondary radiation as the thickness required to not create secondary radiation would be far too heavy.
It sounds like a really good practice to go to Mars. It would be an epic achievement, but seemingly not as beneficial in the immediacy as colonizing the comparatively tropical vacation-like Venus, which would only take some mild improvement to the design of the dirigible (blimp) to make into a colonized planet. Why even talk about transforming mars, when a floating bio-dome on Venus sounds like the ultimate space paradise. 9/10th the gravity of earth, not the bone-collapsing 1/3 gravity that mars provides. You feel lighter, but not too light to survive. The floating city could be maintained indefinitely as long as surrounding CO2 can be converted to O2, water could be harvested from somewhere, minerals not able to be mined from surface could be shipped in, and MOST IMPORTANTLY, Nitrogen or other INERT GAS lighter than CO2 could be kept in an envelope (bubble) attached to the vessel keeping it AFLOAT at 50km above surface, where temperature is a relaxing 70 degrees Fahrenheit, air pressure is EQUIVALENT TO EARTH and the only things you need to shield from, is the 4X intensity sun, (at solar noon, which could be filtered using photovolatics) and the sulfuric acid clouds, which you wouldn't experience, being in a bio-dome made of a material resilient to mild sulfuric acid vapor, such as: glass, plastic, high grade metals. in short, why go to mars and end up being feeble and boneless and likely cold and short on energy when you can vacation on hot Venus with 4x the solar energy availability and the ability to make 11% higher spikes in volleyball?
"water could be harvested from somewhere" i think that would be a major issue tho. according to Wikipedia the water vapor concentration of the atmosphere is 0.0020%! (the Earth's is roughly 1%) i think the reason for this is that (similar to Mars) Venus doesn't have as strong of a magnetic field as the Earth, so nothing prevents high energy particles from space eroding the atmosphere (and of course the lighter atoms, i.e. hydrogen are the first to go). that's one of the main reasons nobody expects any life on Venus, even if the temperatures were more reasonable xD
Regarding the water on Mars. As far as I'm aware, it is to believed that it contains no more deuterium than Earth water. The main problem with extracting water from Mars is contaminants. Mars soil is believed to contain about 1% perchlorates, and so atmospheric dust also. These are rarely found on Earths surface as they are very volatile and highly toxic to humans even at very low levels. Depending on the extraction / filtration technique the yield of Oxygen from perchlorates could be used for fuel, breathing etc. Although I haven't seen it I'm informed Matt Damon's movie didn't address the issue of perchlorates. The question I would like to have asked is: Why would it be necessary to have a water protection system that was not in place all the time? Why have to turn it on and off, just use those 'protective' tanks for permanent storage? With recycling of water at current ability level (I believe 98%), then the total volume of water wouldn't change much. Also this 'jacket' of water would be useful for heat transfer since Sunside/Shade involve very large temperature differential. So while water is 'heavy' in terms of Spaceflight economics, it is a triple benefit - Human consumption / heat transfer / radiation protection, they can't go without it anyway.
+s1rmunchalot Actually I was watching one of the JPL Curiosity 1yr/2yr lectures recently that said that Mars Water does contains significantly more Deuterium than Earth. They said it was due to the solar wind ablating the lighter (non-D2O) water vapor molecules in the atmosphere as the planet cooled and the magnetic field died off but before it became too thin to sustain liquid phase water.
From what I can understand, all of the dodgy particles are on the lookout for electrons. If the spacecraft is being powered by an ion-propulsion drive, then after all the positive ions have been ejected at high velocity to drive the unit forwards, there will be a net surplus of electrons on the surface of the craft. These would provide an 'active' shield/cloud/field around the spacecraft that would 'soak-up' the heavy ions and prevent them penetrating the craft skin. Is this a possibility, or an over-simplification?
You need incredible high fields to shield/attenuate GCRs (heavy ions) because they are going non-insignificant fractions of the speed of light, the earth can do this with the electromagnetic field/van allen belts and lots of distance to throw them near the poles, but even then some still get through and eventually decay into things such as terrestrial neutrons.
for solar radiation only - could they possibly use ship orientation towards the sun, and storm shelter position in the ship, to provide more protection by orienting the ship in a way that most of the bulk/mass of it is between crew and radiation source? This will obviously will not work against extrasolar radiation, but I guess that solar flare related radiation will be coming from a - from ship's perspective - point source (backscatter etc. excluded ofc) ?
If you find things like "rad-hard" technology interesting, check out the great book Seveneves. I would like humanity to figure out how to generate/mimic a massive magnetic fields so we could have the same protection as our planet provides when travelling in space.
how you block all cosmic-ray , gamma-ray , x-ray and many high energy particle with only 0.1 mm aluminum fiber shield use in 60s' apollo space suit for 8 day mission in space ???
Sounds like it’s high time to develop ‘artificial’ electromagnetic magnetic shielding that simulates the effects of the magnetic field surrounding the earth for relevant manned spacecraft...shields captain?
So the denser the material the more these heavy ions (induce) delta radiation to be given off? Her chart showed Iron releasing a large number of particles ... I wish they showed what lead would look like. Okay so like there are four types of radiation: alpha, beta, neutrons, and electromagnetic waves. And She said that there are 3 types of environments that she worried about. Galactic Cosmic rays(which are heavy ions), Solar Particle Events, and trapped radiation in the geomagnetic fields. And Hydrogen would stop it? And she alluded that Hydrogen is the best at blocking this type of radiation. Because it doesn't propagate. While other materials stop it however they also propagate the radiation effect through other forms of radiation. Okay, I think I'm starting to get it.
Cant you just use the Ions and creeate electricity or heat somehow, maybe through some water or stuff enclosing the critical area and get rid of the problem this way
Yeah you can have about 3 to 4 meter thick layer of water surrounding the entire pressurized/crewed compartment of Starship but that's a lot of extra weight.
the speed of light, aka the speed of cause and effect, aka the speed of information. this is the maximum speed anything, including humans can travel at. I think you meant to ask about acceleration.
to add to my answer, inside earths atmosphere you need to stay below a certain speed , or you would be ripped apart by the air itself. my previous reply only considered vacuum travel.
Water storage You wouldn't want this protection mass to be stored there... why? That makes no sense, why not just keep the water storage around the crew compartment permanently with that 5-10cm of water [and hydrogen] mass. Add some extra shielding to some closable hatches and you're done.
I think radiation exposure is cumulative. Apollo experienced a rain shower and they came right back home. A trip to Mars would be three or four monsoons in a raft with no shelter or outside help for a thousand days.
Not practically. You can't just have a shelter everyone goes to with advance notice of particles headed their way. The entire crewed area of Starship would have to have a 3 to 4 meter thick layer of water surrounding it. Of course it's not being designed to actually have that but one day Musk will have to face the music regarding deep space radiation.
Why I have adhd is because people talk to slow like most of use are duh Let’s gooo Spill the tea Give us the download if we are here is because we get the vibe and can follow and if we do nkt we ask or clarify in q and a at the Eid they lost track Take notes Well comment notes like me Once you write it It sticks
Couldn't one create a magnetic bubble much like the earths to provide crew members with added protection when needed ? The earths magnetic field is rather weak, hopefully superconductors are in the near future and could provide a controllable magnetic field as needed in a smaller protective area.
Now I know why we do not have a space station......Maybe just grabbing an asteroid that come close might be a better solution? A 'volley' of rockets with people, mining equipment and tools to make the ship while you are travelling might be the trick?
I know how to deal with the radiation very effectively, but if those NASA guys want the answer they better hunt me down and PAY ME HANDSOMELY! The solution will be cheap!
@@shellysadventures2875 what happened with the radiation on the Moon? Earth's satellite is far away from Van Allen belts which means Moon can be considered as a deep space object. Having no atmosphere at all, Moon is much more exposed to the space radiation than Mars. So the question still stands. How the radiation was not a problem when they visited Moon and now it becomes a big problem for imagined travel to Mars.
@@pecavidic From my understanding, the moon has a small magnetosphere itself which helps to reduce radiation. But other than that, the doses incurred by the astronauts on the moon was low enough to meet the thresholds at that time. None of the Apollo missions If we were to attempt to live on the moon, then the radiation would be a problem due to the extended period of time. The ISS is in low-Earth orbit, so we don't have as big of a concern there since it is protected by us. You can search the amount of radiation incurred by the astronauts in the Apollo missions and it fits within the 3% rule. Mars makes the 3% rule very difficult to stay within. I look forward to hearing your response! Edit: It is worth noting that the longest humans have spent at the moon is 12 days. Compare that to just the 6-9 months to get to Mars, stay on Mars, and come back!
The living are more important than the dead. These are very unique issues to space travel only and no doubt astronauts will have gone through extensive psychological analysis prior to the mission to be able to cope with such things.
Okay let’s learn idk more like can we just shoot the breeze They stop me from posting I guess i Can start a world war and my finger is not the one on the trigger
it seems untenable for man to live in space untill he devises a real radiation shield. just as fish live in the sea and mamals on land. robots (with redundant backup) live in space.
Regarding the question at 29:20: "What is Delta radiation?"
Delta radiation are the secondary electrons which are recoil particles from the initial ionization event brought about by the collision of the initial radiation particle with tissue. As kids in school we learned about alpha, beta, and gamma rays, and in that context a delta ray is a beta ray, but with a different name to signify that it originated from within the body due to the ionization event caused by the externally sourced radiation. If they are energetic enough they may cause secondary ionization events.
my iq is 117, and I still can't figure this out.
It's not just secondary electrons, you can get all sorts of secondary radiation, such as bremsstrahlung which can produce gammas.
So good to see what is NASA is doing for preparations on deep space missions and missions do Mars. Very exciting times with NASA these days. And SpaceX as well.
Skip to 47:15 for discussion on active shielding
A million likes for you
What about chitin as a clothing shield? What about biochemical research into extremophiles (water bears, microbes)?
She does a good job presenting. (Not that he did a bad job, just particularly liked her part of the presentation.)
The mellow trance soundtrack at 43:05 I feel is very distracting for this sort of subject matter. Nothing wrong with the music itself but in this context its just strange. Would be better without music.
Woah. That IS funky.
At first glance a lead lined suit seems not a good idea but when in space it does not matter what the weight the net is no weight at all or weightless. Lead lined coveralls worn by astronauts in between earth and Mars does not seem like a bad idea.
It unfortunately is not a particularly good solution as it produces a lot of secondary radiation as the thickness required to not create secondary radiation would be far too heavy.
Nice talk. Thank you.
It sounds like a really good practice to go to Mars. It would be an epic achievement, but seemingly not as beneficial in the immediacy as colonizing the comparatively tropical vacation-like Venus, which would only take some mild improvement to the design of the dirigible (blimp) to make into a colonized planet. Why even talk about transforming mars, when a floating bio-dome on Venus sounds like the ultimate space paradise. 9/10th the gravity of earth, not the bone-collapsing 1/3 gravity that mars provides. You feel lighter, but not too light to survive. The floating city could be maintained indefinitely as long as surrounding CO2 can be converted to O2, water could be harvested from somewhere, minerals not able to be mined from surface could be shipped in, and MOST IMPORTANTLY, Nitrogen or other INERT GAS lighter than CO2 could be kept in an envelope (bubble) attached to the vessel keeping it AFLOAT at 50km above surface, where temperature is a relaxing 70 degrees Fahrenheit, air pressure is EQUIVALENT TO EARTH and the only things you need to shield from, is the 4X intensity sun, (at solar noon, which could be filtered using photovolatics) and the sulfuric acid clouds, which you wouldn't experience, being in a bio-dome made of a material resilient to mild sulfuric acid vapor, such as: glass, plastic, high grade metals.
in short, why go to mars and end up being feeble and boneless and likely cold and short on energy
when you can vacation on hot Venus with 4x the solar energy availability and the ability to make 11% higher spikes in volleyball?
"water could be harvested from somewhere" i think that would be a major issue tho. according to Wikipedia the water vapor concentration of the atmosphere is 0.0020%! (the Earth's is roughly 1%)
i think the reason for this is that (similar to Mars) Venus doesn't have as strong of a magnetic field as the Earth, so nothing prevents high energy particles from space eroding the atmosphere (and of course the lighter atoms, i.e. hydrogen are the first to go). that's one of the main reasons nobody expects any life on Venus, even if the temperatures were more reasonable xD
Regarding the water on Mars. As far as I'm aware, it is to believed that it contains no more deuterium than Earth water. The main problem with extracting water from Mars is contaminants. Mars soil is believed to contain about 1% perchlorates, and so atmospheric dust also. These are rarely found on Earths surface as they are very volatile and highly toxic to humans even at very low levels. Depending on the extraction / filtration technique the yield of Oxygen from perchlorates could be used for fuel, breathing etc. Although I haven't seen it I'm informed Matt Damon's movie didn't address the issue of perchlorates.
The question I would like to have asked is: Why would it be necessary to have a water protection system that was not in place all the time? Why have to turn it on and off, just use those 'protective' tanks for permanent storage? With recycling of water at current ability level (I believe 98%), then the total volume of water wouldn't change much. Also this 'jacket' of water would be useful for heat transfer since Sunside/Shade involve very large temperature differential. So while water is 'heavy' in terms of Spaceflight economics, it is a triple benefit - Human consumption / heat transfer / radiation protection, they can't go without it anyway.
+s1rmunchalot
Actually I was watching one of the JPL Curiosity 1yr/2yr lectures recently that said that Mars Water does contains significantly more Deuterium than Earth. They said it was due to the solar wind ablating the lighter (non-D2O) water vapor molecules in the atmosphere as the planet cooled and the magnetic field died off but before it became too thin to sustain liquid phase water.
+Paul O'Neill - I haven't seen that. Have you got a link, I'd like to update myself. Thank you for letting me know.
From what I can understand, all of the dodgy particles are on the lookout for electrons. If the spacecraft is being powered by an ion-propulsion drive, then after all the positive ions have been ejected at high velocity to drive the unit forwards, there will be a net surplus of electrons on the surface of the craft. These would provide an 'active' shield/cloud/field around the spacecraft that would 'soak-up' the heavy ions and prevent them penetrating the craft skin. Is this a possibility, or an over-simplification?
You need incredible high fields to shield/attenuate GCRs (heavy ions) because they are going non-insignificant fractions of the speed of light, the earth can do this with the electromagnetic field/van allen belts and lots of distance to throw them near the poles, but even then some still get through and eventually decay into things such as terrestrial neutrons.
Soo, waterbeds (sleeping bags) for the astronauts then, luxury and protection in one! :-)
for solar radiation only - could they possibly use ship orientation towards the sun, and storm shelter position in the ship, to provide more protection by orienting the ship in a way that most of the bulk/mass of it is between crew and radiation source?
This will obviously will not work against extrasolar radiation, but I guess that solar flare related radiation will be coming from a - from ship's perspective - point source (backscatter etc. excluded ofc) ?
Can the radiation breakdown aluminum or other structures such as plastics (as on Earth), thus compromising the spacecraft?
Educated Man 19:44
what about using water storage system for shielding? would the water become unpottable?
so water is heavy but a gel like buffer between the panels, hypothetically could work.
If you find things like "rad-hard" technology interesting, check out the great book Seveneves. I would like humanity to figure out how to generate/mimic a massive magnetic fields so we could have the same protection as our planet provides when travelling in space.
how you block all cosmic-ray , gamma-ray , x-ray and many high energy particle with only 0.1 mm aluminum fiber shield use in 60s' apollo space suit for 8 day mission in space ???
Cosmic ray is positive, so if we have a cloud of electrons would it grab one and be happy?
Why did you use an out of scale atom model? How come you didn't consider using an accurate one relevant?
Sounds like it’s high time to develop ‘artificial’ electromagnetic magnetic shielding that simulates the effects of the magnetic field surrounding the earth for relevant manned spacecraft...shields captain?
So the denser the material the more these heavy ions (induce) delta radiation to be given off? Her chart showed Iron releasing a large number of particles ... I wish they showed what lead would look like. Okay so like there are four types of radiation: alpha, beta, neutrons, and electromagnetic waves. And She said that there are 3 types of environments that she worried about. Galactic Cosmic rays(which are heavy ions), Solar Particle Events, and trapped radiation in the geomagnetic fields. And Hydrogen would stop it? And she alluded that Hydrogen is the best at blocking this type of radiation. Because it doesn't propagate. While other materials stop it however they also propagate the radiation effect through other forms of radiation. Okay, I think I'm starting to get it.
Cant you just use the Ions and creeate electricity or heat somehow, maybe through some water or stuff enclosing the critical area and get rid of the problem this way
Yeah you can have about 3 to 4 meter thick layer of water surrounding the entire pressurized/crewed compartment of Starship but that's a lot of extra weight.
What is the maximum speed a human can sustain within earth gravity & in outer space without gravity
the speed of light, aka the speed of cause and effect, aka the speed of information. this is the maximum speed anything, including humans can travel at.
I think you meant to ask about acceleration.
to add to my answer, inside earths atmosphere you need to stay below a certain speed , or you would be ripped apart by the air itself. my previous reply only considered vacuum travel.
Water storage
You wouldn't want this protection mass to be stored there... why? That makes no sense, why not just keep the water storage around the crew compartment permanently with that 5-10cm of water [and hydrogen] mass. Add some extra shielding to some closable hatches and you're done.
too heavy!!!
Van Allen belts were harmless during the Apollo missions but are now deadly?? Sure, I'll buy that...
I think radiation exposure is cumulative. Apollo experienced a rain shower and they came right back home. A trip to Mars would be three or four monsoons in a raft with no shelter or outside help for a thousand days.
The van allen belts are like puddles under an overhang
So a water shelter during transit and an underground shelter while on Mars wouldn't provide enough protection?
Not practically. You can't just have a shelter everyone goes to with advance notice of particles headed their way. The entire crewed area of Starship would have to have a 3 to 4 meter thick layer of water surrounding it. Of course it's not being designed to actually have that but one day Musk will have to face the music regarding deep space radiation.
Why I have adhd is because people talk to slow like most of use are duh
Let’s gooo
Spill the tea
Give us the download if we are here is because we get the vibe and can follow and if we do nkt we ask or clarify in q and a at the Eid they lost track
Take notes
Well comment notes like me
Once you write it
It sticks
Couldn't one create a magnetic bubble much like the earths to provide crew members with added protection when needed ? The earths magnetic field is rather weak, hopefully superconductors are in the near future and could provide a controllable magnetic field as needed in a smaller protective area.
They are working on it, just google it. ☺️
Have you looked into mushrooms as a bio remediation
So get it done
What future space program ?
14:54 Damage to DNA.
Hire me, radiation health physics graduate student. Specialize in Monte Carlo techniques.
Now I know why we do not have a space station......Maybe just grabbing an asteroid that come close might be a better solution? A 'volley' of rockets with people, mining equipment and tools to make the ship while you are travelling might be the trick?
How about using grey water waste as shielding. :)
John doe I believe all grey water is recycled for consumption. The one thing that bothers me about a trip to Mars.
+John doe
and compacted number twos!
Quite literally "Science the Shit" INTO the problem as Mark Watney might say :-)
I would hate to work on specs and plans for years................. and nothing ever happens. Hate that.
I know how to deal with the radiation very effectively, but if those NASA guys want the answer they better hunt me down and PAY ME HANDSOMELY! The solution will be cheap!
Haven't they solved this problem when they visited Moon?
Well, when they visited the moon there wasn't enough radiation to be worried about.
@@shellysadventures2875 what happened with the radiation on the Moon? Earth's satellite is far away from Van Allen belts which means Moon can be considered as a deep space object. Having no atmosphere at all, Moon is much more exposed to the space radiation than Mars. So the question still stands. How the radiation was not a problem when they visited Moon and now it becomes a big problem for imagined travel to Mars.
@@pecavidic From my understanding, the moon has a small magnetosphere itself which helps to reduce radiation. But other than that, the doses incurred by the astronauts on the moon was low enough to meet the thresholds at that time. None of the Apollo missions If we were to attempt to live on the moon, then the radiation would be a problem due to the extended period of time. The ISS is in low-Earth orbit, so we don't have as big of a concern there since it is protected by us. You can search the amount of radiation incurred by the astronauts in the Apollo missions and it fits within the 3% rule. Mars makes the 3% rule very difficult to stay within. I look forward to hearing your response!
Edit: It is worth noting that the longest humans have spent at the moon is 12 days. Compare that to just the 6-9 months to get to Mars, stay on Mars, and come back!
I'd go to the moon in a nanosecond but we lost that technology and it is a difficult process building it back 🤬🤣🤣🤣
Do think it's ethical to use died astronaut to shielding? I hope he was joking
The living are more important than the dead. These are very unique issues to space travel only and no doubt astronauts will have gone through extensive psychological analysis prior to the mission to be able to cope with such things.
;-) Radiation and Magnetic Field
my theory is that time slows down under water plz test this we could be floating around in a big liquid form
Okay let’s learn idk more like can we just shoot the breeze
They stop me from posting
I guess i Can start a world war and my finger is not the one on the trigger
it seems untenable for man to live in space untill he devises a real radiation shield.
just as fish live in the sea and mamals on land. robots (with redundant backup) live in space.
She wants data ? Get the masses of climate data that NASA has thrown out !!!!!