You're great Austin. I was a Baptist (and anti-Catholic) when I started listening to your great content. Your visit to a Catholic Church made a lasting impression on me and on my journey to become a Catholic.
Obrigado por sua franqueza, professor! Bem-vindo à Santa Igreja Católica, como dizemos os católicos no Símbolo dos Apóstolos! Assisti a uma palestra sua sobre direito humanitário e me impressionei muito positivamente. Não tive a honra de ser seu aluno, mas cursei uma especialização em Direito Penal na Universidade de Salamanca, o que muito me marcou (inclusive porque sua tradição histórica universitária, já desde os 1200s, não foi tanto a teologia sacra quanto o direito canônico, área de particular interesse meu). Comecei logo ali a admirar o “Ius Gentium” dos dominicanos de Salamanca e dos jesuítas de Coimbra. Longo conto, escrevo só para dizer apenas que, como falam por aí, “Petro Origo Unitatis”! Fraternalmente (do Brasil), abs.
@@masterchief8179 muito obrigado. Por acaso estou neste momento no Brasil, em Campinas. O direito humanitário também contribuiu para a mudança do meu pensamento, ao compreender como a teologia católica de Agostinho, Aquino, Bernardo de Claraval, Suárez, Vitória e Molina, entre muitos outros, contribuíram para o lançamento das suas bases.
As a former Baptist, now Catholic, there are some things about evangelicalism that I find theologically disturbing: 1) the enmity between evangelicals and the woman (Mary) whose seed will save us from our sins; 2) the interpretation of "this is my body" and "this is my blood" as meaning "this is not really my body" and "this is not really my blood", thus ignoring the Eucharist as the medicine of imortality that feeds and unites the Church; 3) ignoring the direct words of Jesus about Peter being the Rock upon which the Church is built; 4) understanding the Church as a set of individuals with a direct and private relation with Jesus and not as members of the historical and universal Body of Christ in communion with all Saints.
Not every Protestant 1) Hates Mary, 2) Denies no presence in the Lord's Supper (see John Calvin on Spiritual Presence - he would even say we feed on the body and blood of Christ!), 3) Not ignoring those words, but also taking the related passage of John 20 into consideration, and 4) is an exclusively baptistic/contemporary evangelical thing, not so for those in Anglicanism/Reformed/Lutheran traditions. Brother I must ask you, did you consider that your Baptist views might not necessarily be representative of all Protestants? And that you may also find a more accurate and true Christian faith in other Protestant traditions?
@@hewziheng That's only proves , that protestants don't hold whole truth , too much diversity among them .By the way How anyone can even hates Mary?,, Not every protestant hates Mary'' That's mean that some do.They might disagree , but hating, this is unacceptable.
@@hewziheng claiming that Jesus meant his spirit body is the same as saying Jesus didn’t mean that it was his body. His body is his body and he said his body was actual food. And no Protestant denomination can have the full faith by virtue that they are in rebellion to the successors of the apostles and especially and specifically Peter.
@Jónatas Machado - great points Jonatas. I look at the woman in Rev 12, and particularly verse 17 'rest of her offspring' , those of us who have Mary (& The Church) as our Mother, as the twain are inseparable!
Eric is one of the fairest minded people I've come across. He is willing to disagree with apologists on his own "side" when needed. He is very good on this subject.
Such a fan of Erick. When I was Protestant, I remember hearing the likes of Catholic Answers claim that every Christian before Luther basically all believed in the same (Catholic) stuff. Intrigued, I started reading the Church Fathers and was disappointed by how this evidentally wasn't the case. For a time, this simplistic argumentation put me off Catholicism. But the likes of Ybarra, and his fair, nuanced approach to history, brought me to conversion.
To be fair, Erick truly steelmans the case against Catholicism to the point of disbelief. I remember I became convinced of Catholicism by just reading the fathers myself with little input from apologists. Nothing against Erick but I don't think that was the approach of the church. The church always knew its identity. Neutrality was never present in the church. The church is where the faith was kept, when Clement wrote to Corinthians about Schism, when Irenaeus pointed everyone to Rome, when Ignatius declared them to rule in charity. When the bishop of Smyrna clashed with Pope Victor on Easter. When I surveyd the fathers I saw Rome acting as a supreme court and always saw quotations regarding it being the see of Peter. Now, could I still make some Orthodox case, perhaps but then again there seemed to be at least even footing. The faith was not delivered to the nuanced and big brained. The faith was delivered. Period. God would not let the world dwell in darkness. So history would showcase the true church. Its successes and failures and of course its evangelism.
@@jackdaw6359 I agree, but someone like Ybarra is necessary to keep the dialogue possible. Ultimately, each of us is called to accept or refuse the Truth, and Ybarra's charitable approach allows non Catholics to take full responsibility for their decisions.
This was a great interview. He presented everything in a calm, thoughtful and logical manner. As a result he was very persuasive. He also didn’t make me feel as if I was trying to drink from a fire hose. His presentation was on a level the common person could understand.
Thanks Austin for having the boldness and courage to engage on this most central topic concern about the question of petrine authority. I pray you can call Rome a sweet home sometime soon. Im celebrating my 12th year as a Catholic and my third as a priest. There has not been one day I have regretted entering this Catholic Communion. I know it would be a major decision for you and impact your personal and public life. I realize we never had that direct personal discussion as things have been really busy for my first year at two parishes. Lets connect in a couple weeks.
Absolutely fantastic discussion. Thank you both. Eric’s points at toward the end regarding popes vs heresies were extremely informative. -An Orthodox brother in Christ.
What I find very good about Austin s interview style - is he allows each person to state their case - while asking challenging yet respectful questions to help the listeners better understand the position of the presenter. Great job Austin! And kudos to Eric Ybarra for his insights on the papacy - which are exhaustive without any preconceived notions towards one side or the other.. I appreciate how he presents the history and let’s the reader (or listener) come to their own conclusions. Great job!
@Erick Ybarra thanks for explaining. @Gospel Simplicity @Austin thanks for inviting Erick Ybarra back on your channel. Your Catholic brother Robert from Puerto Rico 🇵🇷
Roberto tapia you should watch cira international and Lloyd de jongh and reasoned answers and godlogic apologetics on TH-cam and watch all the channels on TH-cam roberto tapia 😀😀😀😀😀😀
"And Jesus answered him, 'Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jona! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven. And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.'" ~ Matthew 16:17-19 (RSVCE)
Well, have you ever asked the Holy Fathers what do they think about this passage? I mean, what does "this rock" (Mt 16:18) refer to? St John Chrysostom says that it refers to the CORRECT CONFESSION of who Christ is that Peter had just made, not to Peter himself. By the way, this is not exclusive to Chrysostom, there are other Holy Fathers of this opinion.
@@fernandoxavier5688 1) Having that view doesnt negate also why Simon becomes Peter, OR the primacy of Peter. 2) John Chrysostoms notes on the gospels also mention the primacy of Peter, here a quote that comes to mind with a source. “Jesus said to Peter, ‘Feed my sheep’. Why does He pass over the others and speak of the sheep to Peter? He was the chosen one of the Apostles, the mouth of the disciples, the head of the choir. For this reason Paul went up to see him rather than the others. And also to show him that he must have confidence now that his denial had been purged away. He entrusts him with the rule [prostasia] over the brethren. . . . If anyone should say ‘Why then was it James who received the See of Jerusalem?’, I should reply that He made Peter the teacher not of that see but of the whole world.” (Homilies on John, 88.1).
@@fernandoxavier5688 Just taking one Church Father gravely out of context so as to deny the papacy won’t do it any good for the Catholic/Non-Catholic dialogue.
@@fernandoxavier5688 Oh, Fernando, by the way, I’ve not even quoted Latin texts of the first millennium and and I have not brought some of the most important Eastern texts either.
Austin, you are miles beyond the "invincible ignorance" line in the sand. This interview was amazing and persuasive. I very much hope to be in communion with you someday.
Hi Austin. It has been a long time since I have been online and commenting on videos. Great questions for Erick and nicely framed to generate sincere and reflective replies. 😊
In every Generation the Visibility of Catholic Church through Petrine Office is the big Third point here to be made. Vicar of Christ for a reason. Another point for Catholicism is God is Literally living within the Catholic Churches in Tabernacles, in the Holy Eucharist. God is truly with us, in Body, soul and Divinity, Emmanuel! He will be here with us till the End of Ages. Happy Easter to all btw! Christ is Indeed Risen! Alleluia! 🙏🏻
I want to try those coffee beans!!! 😋 I make my coffee the night before and in the morning I crawl out of bed, push the button, and read my Bible until all my kids wake up! Lol
This is a good approach for any sort of historical exploration. History is piecemeal. We don't have access to every thought, and in many cases we don't see the ancients being concerned with some of the questions we have today. It takes a lot of careful contextual analysis to parce out how they would respond to our questions.
Yes can't wait for this I've learned so much from @Erick Ybarra thanks for having him on again please ask him about other topics to or please invite him for another topic. Thanks Robert from Puerto Rico 🇵🇷
Erick Ybarra is a great defender of the Papacy and Filioque from an historical perspective. He frames it as a defense against the EO, which makes the case that much better.
@@mjramirez6008 Catholics are the most Open minded brother. It's his Journey bro, that is what he said that is why he is open to all Christian community in Search of Truth and that doesn't have to stop there if he becomes Catholic. He is discerning his way to God. I hope that he becomes Catholic it's a desire in good faith. What's wrong in that? I would really Love that he come to know more deeply the Riches of Catholic Faith as I came to know it, and was in Awe. If One comes to know the Truth and Loves it more than anything, he will Shout it out from Tops of the Mountains. He doesn't have to break relationship or stop talking to his other friends. If he becomes Catholic mate. Many Catholics keep the friends even after they chose to become Catholic. Though I agree it is hard to Leave all behind to Say I want to become Catholic from a Non-Catholic denomination. Last of all I would say this, No other Church denomination could claim God is With Us. As in 'Emmanuel' as Catholics claim. Do you know the reason why? Simply because he dwells in the Tabernacles of a Catholic Church in Holy Eucharist. And Literally God is with Us!!! He will be there till the End of times with his Visible Church. Which is One Holy, Catholic and Apostolic in nature. 🙏🏻
@@delvingeorge2807 Catholics are not open minded. The Catholics I've interacted with have been among the worst people I've ever met. I actually had a crisis of faith over it, and those same Catholics just kicked me while I was down, blaming my doubts on my being a Protestant, etc.
@@delvingeorge2807 sure Delvin but he's said Orthodoxy appeals to him more than Catholicism... maybe taking as a given that he's becoming Catholic is having the opposite effect... Blessings.
@@mjramirez6008 We've got Byzantine and Syriac Churches too. Hence the name Catholic. I am a Syro-malabar Catholic. Yes he said that but everything appealing is not true always is what I believe. God bless you too mate! Peace of Christ Jesus be with you!🙏🏻
Hi Austin. I love your Spirit. I just watched your interview with Matt Fradd on Pints with Aquinas and have found your channel in order to tell you what I have experienced as a Convert to Catholicism. I am now entrenched as a Catholic and won't go back, largely beacause of the Eucharist, but at times I wonder if I made the right choice because as a convert to Catholicism there are many things I miss: First: The fervour of the faith in my cobelievers, because now I am treated like an anomally, "who do you think you are? A saint?" Just because I really love the Lord. Second, No home groups. Gosh I miss those and when I tried to establish one it fell on deaf ears, people seem to share their faith only within families. If you are an outsider without a resident Catholic family, fellowship is almost non-existant. Third, It is so hard for my daughters to find true believers to partner with. They are almost non-existant. Fourth, Traditional Catholics think they are better than the Novis Ordo and dismiss the Glory and Praise hymns which are so beautiful and from the heart, thinking that ancient chants are the only way to go. I feel that the TLM does not minister to the African nations or even South American where the ancient liturgy has little history - OK I know Our Lady of Guadalupe helped convert Mexico but many Mexicans or South Americans don't consider Catholicism Christian and they are part of Evangelical denominations. Even our Pope has been dismayed by how effectively the Evangelicals have converted the Amazon and hense the Amazon Synod where a Pachymama found its self at the alter (That is a debatable tactic for conversion). Many Priests and Nuns are associated with sexual sins in the Americas and much of it is true. So their is a splintering happening in the faith between TLM and Novis Ordo as well as all the scandals which is hard to take and defend. Fifth, I have come to pray the rosary, but miss also talking to God as a form of prayer and feel that the Rosary is lifted up higher than that interpersonal relationship. Lately, I have been doing both, but am dismayed that one is deemed greater than the other. So, I miss being Protestant, but I like being able to go to my church daily and receive Christ if I want to. Its just my walk is more lonely. Make the right choice and be aware of the pros and cons. God bless you.
Erick Y - please do your job well ! Austin said once the papacy is sorted out for him, he will join Cameron Bertuzzi! May God filled and overflow you with the HS! God bless !
Hello, Jeremiah! One thing that is often perceptible in the field of apologetics is that non-Catholic apologists most certainly try to prove not so much their position historically and theologically; they ostensibly hit on the Catholic one instead, and then present theirs (implicitly or even explicitly) as the alleged “default”. So anti-Catholic apologetics concerning the papacy will certainly come to picking two or three polemical popes (Virgilius and Honorius, maybe, just maybe Liberius) of the first millennium and-or two or three ecclesiastical events in the history of the church (not uncommonly related to those very popes), and present a particular anti-Catholic interpretation, at the same time they utterly dismiss the Catholic interpretations for them. But what is curious of this pattern is that they tend to avoid some “unavoidable” theological and historical facts, like, for example, the reality that there weren’t important written “papal polemics” pretty much until the Photian Schism (863-867), when the first serious writings against Rome were ever produced, even ignoring the later writings of Photius’ “pretty papal” views after communion with Rome was reestablished, for instance (that would be seemingly unacceptable for EO post-Great schism, by the way). At the same time, anti-Catholic apologists don’t find the need to seriously engage and justify the massive amount of saints in the Patristic era that talked about how the Roman headship in the Church of the 1st millennium at the universal level operated East and West (with clear manifestations of jurisdiction, not an honorific-only type of leadership), or about papal acts and injunctions in the ‘oukoumene’ on the gravest matters of Church life, or the massive writings of the saints concerning this authority, even connecting supremacy and the measuring-rod of the orthodox faith with the Petrine ministry of Rome (and the promise of Our Lord made to Peter), or the fact that papal supremacy - and even infallibility - were arguably manifested through a number of documents of Ecumenical Councils themselves, mostly Ephesus (431), Chalcedon (451), Third Constantinople (680-681) and Second Nicea (787). No, no, no. They most certainly will come with things like “it was Byzantine flattery” or “the Eastern bishops were insincere” or “they accepted the claims only through the convenience of reuniting the Church” or “the Ecumenical Councils only accepted the papal claims of letter X or Y or Z because the popes (or their legates) were on the correct side of the disputed matter in the Councils” or “Rome had up to some specific point of history a great record for orthodoxy”, and so forth. Even serious theologians may act just like that in some of their anti-Catholic scholarships! While one can be microscopically picking events in history to try to undermine the papacy (discrediting Catholic explanations for those, as if it was just ‘explaining away’), the same one can act almost blind to serious attestations of things that would be, for non-Catholic people, nothing but blatant and intolerable heresies written by enormous saints of Latin, Greek and Syriac Patristics and even documents approved by Ecumenical Councils. I’m not trying to bash anyone, but that ‘modus operandi’ is shared by likes of Ubi Petrus/Jay Dyer and Gavin Ortlund among online apologetics. It never ceases to impress me how they can even say it is Catholics who are explaining things away. How non-Catholics can even get out with that is a mystery to me, I humbly say. I sincerely hope Erick points this out during the interview and that Austin can investigate whatever he feels needs investigation, with honesty and as a real truth-seeker. God bless you and yours!
Austin, I rejet ecumenical events like the ones Pope John Paul II held. in Assisi, Italy in 1986 and 2002 because they suggested that God believes we're morally free to practice any religion we prefer. That's the heresy Blessed Pope Pius IX calls "religious indifferentism" when he condemns it in his Syllabus of Errors. But you understand what other people believe and prepare thoroughly before you interview someone who disagrees with you on many subjects. So I admire you for your objectivity. Excellent, excellent work.
It’s much easier to be skeptical of Catholicism and keep endlessly objecting than it is to reasonable demonstrate that Protestantism is either apostolic or true.
Austin, how amazing would it be for you to moderate a discussion (not debate) on this subject matter between Erik and Gavin Ortlund. Just saying 😁. Blessings 🙏
Hi Austin, I have just recommended your channel to a friend, former protestant, now converted catholic, who is still struggling from time to time with the question of denominations. She can't stand the typical (though great) american catholic apologets. I thought with your humility and openness in discussion she should be able to connect easily.
I am a Roman Catholic and my very limited understanding is that infallibity means issues of doctrine and faith are discussed and debated issues thread bare by a conclave of cardinals and bidhops with the Holy Father casting the final vote..
The Bishops together have a magisterium where they can issue an infallible statement and the Pope has his own magisterium which can do it in conjunction with the Bishops but also by himself. This is what prevented Arianism for example and other heresies from destroying the church like you see with todays church’s and there seeking to modernize to the world. Infallibility is to protect the faith,
@@matthewgroh8797 yes I know you’re not making a point. I already said it was the Church’s authority that defeated Arianism. The Pope played a vital role in this as well along with other Bishops. And there is 2 different Magisterium’s not just one in a more qualified sense. You have the College of Bishops who together can make an infallible teaching as well as the Pope who can as well. Both can also issues authoritative teachings that aren’t infallible either and other levels of teaching authority
@@brianfarley926I’m reading a book on church history and it seems to paint a picture of the pope Liberius giving in to the emperor’s views of Arianism. It also seems to imply most of the bishops fell into this heresy. I am trying to gain a better understanding off church history but I’m starting to see the bias of this Protestant historian. Could you point me in the direction of Catholic works at the time that better describe the Arian crises?
The papacy is one of the larger gorillas in the room. No matter how much we distance ourselves from it, the fact remains. Even many who reject it need it to anchor some of their doctrines. We might as well talk about it.
Honestly, though I remain Orthodox, it was a good discussion, thank you. IMHO accepting a Saint or a letter from that Saint in no way means we must accept every single word as dogma in our system. The position of The Pope in The Church was not the main point of that letter. Mr. Ybarra seems to put a lot of weight on this point, but i don't think it works.
Well, Agatho's letters was absorbed as the Council's own utterance. If you read closely the Acts, that becomes clear. Also, if it were a singular instance, you might have a point. Might. But it is a link in a long chain of claims and acceptances of the same doctrine.
@@Erick_Ybarra we accepted much of Augustine but not all. The same is true of many saints and fathers of the Church. From our perspective the pattern is actually one of honor and selective acceptance. We have no pattern of the dogmatic acceptance of entire works or entire utterances. Thus, we answer the challenge posed in the interview quite easily. We would have to share Roman Catholic assumptions for this gotcha to work... and we don't.
@@Erick_Ybarra Further, we accept the Canons that came out of the Ecumenical Council, of which this letter is not one AFAIK. Just to point out the distinction. Accepting a council as Ecumenical does not mean accepting everything that was said regardless of person or context.
My understanding is that early ecumenical councils were responding to and battling numerous heresies yes? Is there a point we can look to where this changed to how we understand today, as fostering acceptance
Excited for this! If possible, I would recommend inviting someone from Ubi Petrus to give reasons against the papacy. Also, Perry Robinson from Energetic Procession would be a great guest. He was baptized Catholic as a kid, but raised protestant. He eventually left protestantism to convert to Eastern Orthodoxy.
Imo someone like Fr. Laurent Cleenewerck is much better than Ubi in terms or making solid arguments for Orthodoxy. Ubi really isn’t impressive idk why e-orthobros are obsessed
@@jebbush2527 Agreed. And Ubi calls people who don’t give him money cheap. Just look at his community posts re: Financial support, though quite a few comments are no longer there.
@@jebbush2527 I'll check that person out. I've been having a hard time finding EO apologists. They just don't seem as abundant on TH-cam as Catholic apologists. That being said, Ubi's videos have helped me a lot when it comes to understanding EO arguments against the papacy.
The idea that Rome wins by milligrams might seem unsatisfactory to Catholics. But when Catholics and Orthodox are in agreement on nearly every point (with a few important exceptions), even in agreement on some points regarding the role of the bishop of Rome, then there are only milligrams worth of items in contention to start with.
Hard to understand how these letters from Honorius to Sergius were not revealed until decades after the death of Honorius, especially with their content being what it was? This whole issue is very fascinating to me as a Catholic listening to Erik, so if I could get a response to this question it would be great.
Wow, I was just watching one of your videos from 2 years ago and you said to comment on the video to help explain things to you and I was just thinking how much of a snake you were trying to use the algorithm without doing the work. But look at you now. Good for you, I shall subscribe because I sense you really are seeking God and I shall be a witness.
I am new to Christianity and I am currently in a reformed Baptist church. I have been doing a lot of research on our faiths history and have been learning a lot about orthodoxy and roman Catholicism. Right now the papacy and the post schism counsels are big points of contention for me, and i'm leaning heavily towards orthodoxy. Considering the problems in the modern roman catholic church, how do traditional Roman Catholics reconcile these issues? All answers and opinions are appreciated, thanks.
Orthodoxy is "the truth " catholics broke away from the one true church with through supremacy of the pope and the filioque. The Apostles that lived closest to Christ where Orthodox. We follow Christ's teachings through them and the Holy Father's. Your soul will be at peace being Orthodox
People do not realize that the papacy and the church had a vital role in the creation and development of the university, hospital, art, science and the justice system of the western civilization. The papacy led the struggle and survival of Christianity against the barbarians (Vikings, Visigoths, etc.) and Islam. The granting of a master's degree is a sign of qualification of his/her own profession. University degrees were approved by the pope, the king, or monarch. - the papacy played a central role in establishing universities. The granting of a charter to a university was one indication of this papal role. The Pope has authority in all Christendom and degrees approved by the pope are respected in all Christendom, while the kings approval was only valid in the kingdom in which they were issued. Likewise in Art and science were supported by the popes. Cathedrals were designed in the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries to function as world-class solar observatories. Even atheist Stephen Hawking was a lifetime member of the Pontifical Academy of Sciences (academy of sciences of the Vatican city). The Jesuits have been the single most important contributor to experimental physics in the seventeenth century. Christian Art created by the greatest artist/composers in the world like Michelangelo, Raphael, Botticelli, Leonardo da Vinci, Beethoven, Bach, Schumann, Vivaldi, Williams, etc. were all commissioned by the popes. What would western civilization be without the arts/music, science, universities and hospitals that were pioneered by the early church, led by the popes.
John 21:15-17 New International Version Jesus Reinstates Peter 15 When they had finished eating, Jesus said to Simon Peter, “Simon son of John, do you love me more than these?” “Yes, Lord,” he said, “you know that I love you.” Jesus said, “Feed my lambs.” 16 Again Jesus said, “Simon son of John, do you love me?” He answered, “Yes, Lord, you know that I love you.” Jesus said, “Take care of my sheep.” 17 The third time he said to him, “Simon son of John, do you love me?” Peter was hurt because Jesus asked him the third time, “Do you love me?” He said, “Lord, you know all things; you know that I love you.” Jesus said, “Feed my sheep.
If I may disagree, I think a good argument against papal infallibility is that it makes all the eccumenical councils including the council in Acts essentially just theater when all Peter and his successors needed to do was speak ex-cathedra.
That’s a description of the tyrant single-player pope that also happens to be an oracle, not of the Successor of Peter (according to the Catholic Church). But that’s exactly how “Ubi Petrus” misleads former Protestants (mostly exploring their anti-Catholic biases, probably some serious lack of theological/ historical knowledge and also some emotional inclinations). Tragically, people still fall for that kind of reasoning, which became so handful and mainstream to EO online apologetics. The argument can be expounded as this: 1) history registers that Ecumenical Councils are a fact, 2) the “Rambo Pope” with an oracle machine gun, on the contrary, doesn’t exist; 3) therefore, it follows that the “Catholic papacy” is false. One can easily perceive that the fallacy relies on making a caricature of the pope as a solipsistic autocrat, the “Rambo pope”.
@@masterchief8179 I don't like this accusation of anti-catholic bias, especially when I see plenty of bias on the Catholic side. Y'all are hypocrites at best, and lying hypocrites otherwise.
@@EmberBright2077 Everyone has bias but that’s not what I’m talking about. When you look at popular manifestations of Protestantism, mostly American Evangelicalism, then you know what I’m talking about. Many people - not all, but many - can be educated by families and even by pastors to hate (a caricature of) the Catholic Church that becomes intrinsic to their “ethos”, and the fear is so tremendous that so many will give a fair chance to whomever first and just then consider listening to the Catholic Church in equity and fairness, if ever. But if you don’t want to understand the point, well, I’m not here to convince you. I just insist: the argument _“if the pope (…), then why (…) Ecumenical Councils?”_ is so bad. Actually, it’s terrible. Still we are good, my friend.
I'm sure the council fathers who affirmed the papal claims were happy to do so as long as the Pope supported their position, and thus their language could be hyperbolic. But when he opposed their position, then they challenged the extent of his authority. Naturally this is the case. However, if all of us (Catholic and Orthodox) hold the judgments of the councils to be divinely inspired, we cannot dismiss the agreement of the bishops with the papal claims. If he really has the authority that is claimed, and which is supported by the councils, and later bishops claimed otherwise, then by definition those bishops went against the deposit of faith as articulated and affirmed by universal apostolic authority.
You don’t mention the rest of the Patriarchs! Rome wasn’t flying solo! The East had their own Patriarchs in Alexandria, Jerusalem, Antioch, Constantinople besides Western Rome. And, Rome spoke Latin, not Greek like the East. It’s not a stretch to see that the people were doing the correct thing in following their own Patriarchs in their jurisdiction.
"Rome must not require more from the East with respect to the doctrine of the primacy than had been formulated and was lived in the first millennium." Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, 1982 (Later Pope Benedict XVI).
Also, the famous question by JPII, “What can the pope do to serve!” (slight paraphrase as I can’t remember the exact wording) I’m finding the definitions of papal supremacy given these days by Trads to be acceptable as an EO. I’m also of the kind that the pope is what he is regardless of confession: recent popes have served the wider church more than make demands. Their pastoral office is an IS, a given. If popes continue to serve the RCC, the wider church/Christianity, & the world, they will, in part, be fulfilling their office. As to overcoming schism, that takes repentance & the Spirit. It cannot be programmed.
I guess you guys would definitely appreciate reading the document “The Primacy of the Successor of Peter in the Mystery of the Church”. It was written by Cardinal Ratzinger as the Prefect of the Congregation of the Doctrine of the Faith in 1998, and it shows a great deal of his ecclesiology concerning the primacy of Peter. He explicitly says _“only the Pope (or the Pope with an Ecumenical Council) has, as the Successor of Peter, the authority and the competence to say the last word on the ways to exercise his pastoral ministry in the universal Church”._ That’s not like relativizing Catholic truths pronounced by the definitive magisterium. They are truths, not opinions. So we must find ways to better articulate the Catholic Petrine primacy in charity, humility and service, not concede it out. That’s his core (and even humble) argument. Still it’s actually not the “Trads” nor the “Libs” (whatever those mean and whomever they are) that have a good say through each one’s agenda in ecclesiastical affairs. Prior to pope Francis it was the “Libs” the ones questioning the authority of the pope in a way that Orthodox would find “appealing”; now it’s the “Trads”. But we Catholics believe in the authority of the Church - not in taylormarshalism - because under that design she is guided “par excellence” by the Holy Spirit into all truths. And being in communion with Peter, exactly what many refuse with obstinacy (in some cases at the cost of jeopardizing their souls), is the way to truly grant it. By the way, during the Ecumenical Council of Vatican I (1870), one of the so-called “RadTrad” faction defended Ultramontanism, a kind of papal absolutism in line with what king Louis XIV of France would say of his model of governance (“the king [pope] can do no wrong”, more or less). The other “RadTrad” faction was on the exact opposite spectrum (much alike the Byzantine schismatic mentality around the Photian Schism and then the Great Schism, whose unconfessed premise was the “imperialization” of the Church), what can be called Gallicanism: they were the ones sustaining that the papal authority was honorific in essence over the notion of the Roman Empire being the model of the Church in her reality, therefore the Petrine decisions lacked “immediacy” (‘imediatum’ in Latin means “without mediation”) except in his diocesan Rome, and should be submitted to the ‘referendum’ of National Synods (like in France, Spain, etc), almost certainly controlled - or at least supervised - by each National State, so as to attain enforceability inside each territory. Both models are anti-Catholic by definition. It was the ‘moderates’ the ones backed up by the Holy Spirit, the Third Person of the Most Holy Trinity who never fails to guide the Church into all Truth. Cardinal Ratzinger, later Pope Benedict XVI, explicitly stated that communion with Rome is NOT an accidental feature of the Church. It is constitutive of its fullest and also its universal (=Catholic, in this sense) expression. He was always very amicable to the Eastern churches in schism and even says the pope being the “Servant of the Servants of God”, a gift of divine mercy to the Church, is the way to work for unity, at the same time he says “full and real communion with the Roman Pontiff”, in his own words, is an ESSENTIAL ecclesiological attribute desired by Christ. So, for him, the only way to unity as desired by God is by reaffirming this Catholic truth and not relativizing it, so as to accomplish Christ’s will. Still he thinks there must be some optimum way to do it and only the Holy Spirit can show us how to. Therefore, it is always surprising to me to see Pope Benedict XVI’s words meaning what they - definitely - don’t mean. Let us just read part of the document by Cardinal Ratzinger (1998) in the CDF: _”14. In recalling these essential points of Catholic doctrine on the primacy of Peter's Successor, the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith is certain that the authoritative reaffirmation of these doctrinal achievements offers greater clarity on the way to be followed. This reminder is also useful for avoiding the continual possibility of relapsing into biased and one-sided positions already rejected by the Church in the past (Febronianism, Gallicanism, ultramontanism, conciliarism, etc.). Above all, by seeing the ministry of the Servant of the servants of God as a great gift of divine mercy to the Church, we will all find with the grace of the Holy Spirit - the energy to live and faithfully maintain full and real union with the Roman Pontiff in the everyday life of the Church, in the way desired by Christ._ _15. The full communion which the Lord desires among those who profess themselves his disciples calls for the common recognition of a universal ecclesial ministry "in which all the Bishops recognize that they are united in Christ and all the faithful find confirmation for their faith". The Catholic Church professes that this ministry is the primatial ministry of the Roman Pontiff, Successor of Peter, and maintains humbly and firmly "that the communion of the particular Churches with the Church of Rome, and of their Bishops with the Bishop of Rome, is -- in God's plan -- an essential requisite of full and visible communion". Human errors and even serious failings can be found in the history of the papacy: Peter himself acknowledged he was a sinner. Peter, a weak man, was chosen as the rock precisely so that everyone could see that victory belongs to Christ alone and is not the result of human efforts. Down the ages the Lord has wished to put his treasure in fragile vessels: human frailty has thus become a sign of the truth of God's promises._ _When and how will the much-desired goal of the unity of all Christians be reached? "How to obtain it? Through hope in the Spirit, who can banish from us the painful memories of our separation. The Spirit is able to grant us clear-sightedness, strength, and courage to take whatever steps are necessary, that our commitment may be ever more authentic". We are all invited to trust in the Holy Spirit, to trust in Christ, by trusting in Peter._ God bless!
Great interview. @55:00 “What Catholicism is asking the Orthodox Church today, in a much more mild way” this is a tell. Let’s look at the Fruit from the fountain of papacy and Filioque
It was said near the beginning of the video that the papacy was a source division. But could it not also be said that it serves as a source of unity? I'll have to think about this.
@@EmberBright2077 John 21:15-17 15 When they had finished eating, Jesus said to Simon Peter, “Simon son of John, do you love me more than these?” “Yes, Lord,” he said, “you know that I love you.” Jesus said, “Feed my lambs.” 16 Again Jesus said, “Simon son of John, do you love me?” He answered, “Yes, Lord, you know that I love you.” Jesus said, “Take care of my sheep.” 17 The third time he said to him, “Simon son of John, do you love me?” Peter was hurt because Jesus asked him the third time, “Do you love me?” He said, “Lord, you know all things; you know that I love you.” Jesus said, “Feed my sheep. Well yes you could argue that orthodox and protestants disagree with me, but I'm the only one, as a Catholic not stating a useless opinion, I'm stating the facts, whether you reject the order Jesus gave to this one single Bishop, is your problem... Now we have a problem, people calling themselves christians while rejecting undeniable truth spoken by our Lord Jesus Christ "take care of my sheep" spoken to Peter before the others, three times for foolish people that won't believe what he says a single time, yet you still whine and reject his words.
A nice, polite conversation. After reading and researching, Erick still finds the Catholic claims to only tip the scales a few milligrams. One would think that if these claims were so clear in history, it would not really be all that close. Erick seems to think that people are becoming Orthodox because it's the "cool" thing or because it "looks better" or because of the "mystique". That has not been my experience. I have yet to hear anyone describe their conversion to Orthodoxy (sometimes from Catholicism) and describe their journey in these terms. If you are someone who is discerning the question of Roman Catholicism or Orthodoxy, please keep looking. Keep doing research and especially, visit an Orthodox Church.
For orthodoxy to be surprised by the existence of the papacy they must have thought there were two churches or more from the beginning. If not they must be subject to the universal leader of the church and his successors.
@@koppite9600 You misunderstood my comment. What I was surprised by was the idea that if the universality of the papacy was such a clear teaching, one would think that it would be so clear as to not even be something to weigh. Rather, it was clear that it was conciliar for the first millenium and then the Roman view developed over time.
Eleven minutes in and the hook is set. Isn’t it fitting that the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus are the most historically compelling proof for God, Christianity and even the Hebrew religion. Really grabs you by the lapels.
Matthew 7:16-20 KJV Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
Yes, friend. It is not enough to say you believe, but you must incarnate that faith in good works, which are the real sign of a genuine faith. Whoever does not have these signs - charity, joy, kindness, patience - is not following Christ.
@@BaikalTii Hi, friend. We all must stand before the judgement seat of God and be held accountable for our actions and every word that we say. Popes included. Yet we should not fear, if we have Jesus as our Advocate both here on earth and in the afterlife. We are joyful and at peace. We love you also, no matter what set of beliefs you hold! ❤️🙏♥️
@@BaikalTiiThe true corruption is those with no teaching authority, no hierarchy, who simply decide to interpret the Bible themselves. They become their own Church. Jesus Himself prayed for unity, and the only Christian unity is the Catholic Church.
I’ll begin listening to this with trepidation. Erick is a dubious source except to his fans and co-ecclesiasts. There’s no doubt that’s he’s a soft-spoken & earnest layman. But the constant critique is his refusal to answer substantial critiques & use of long-debunked arguments. I’ll listen because I respect Austin & the process. Tangentially, as an EO, I’m thinking trad Catholics may be beginning to define a papacy long promoted, at least in theory, by the EO. I find myself frequently nodding in agreement to some of Francis’ critics.
I suspect that what you mean regarding the long-debunked arguments are the ones perhaps made by the millennial converts from Protestantism to Eastern Orthodoxy as dogmatically defined by the ortho bros.
Excellent interview. There are several basic problems in contemporary apologetics. One is that apologists often ask the wrong questions. For example, consider the question, "Can you prove [Roman] Catholicism?" What does this even mean? Ybarra clarifies: "... prove that Catholicism is the only form of Christianity." Once the question or statement gets reframed to reflect its actual, intended meaning, its absurdity is immediately evident. Only a fool would assert that Roman Catholicism is the only form of Christianity. Y clarifies further: "the only CORRECT form of Christianity." Again, only a fool would believe such a thing. There are countless evidences demonstrating flaws in Roman Catholicism and among its members. Now, Roman Catholicism is clearly more true in some respects than some other religions. With respect to historical beliefs and practices, Roman Catholicism can trace its existence to Christ via the apostles and their successors (as can many churches)--the belief in the Real Presence in the Eucharist, for example. Countless Protestant-Evangelicals become entranced by Rome on this account, and rightly so. However, it doesn't follow from this that Roman Catholicism is the "one true Church" or any similar nonsense. The problem is much more complex than this. Likewise, many apologists appear to believe that if they can rip apart some other faith or set of beliefs, then that makes his position, church, whatever, right. Again, only a fool would really believe this. In any event, the viewer might note how Ybarra immediately (and constantly) lowers the bar of expectations: He says, basically, that we aren't going to find evidence or a sound argument that actually proves Papal Supremacy. He couches it in a way so as to make it sound like those who don't believe are just skeptics--as if the failing is on other parts. He eventually provides these three points that he says are essential. The problem, of course, is that they are all not only undemonstrated, but are demonstrably false. 1) "Christ singles out Peter as a leader among the apostles." No. We have no evidence of this. Yes, Peter is prominent among the NT gospel accounts, but we have no evidence of what the Roman apologist wants us to infer--Jesus saying to Peter or the others that Peter rules them, that they must obey Peter, that he is infallible, or anything even close to this. "What about Matthew 16?" The promises and authority mentioned of Peter in Matthew 16 are mentioned of all of the apostles in Matthew 18 and elsewhere. We have no evidence whatsoever that the honor shown to Peter by Christ in Matthew 16 was an impartation of ruling authority over the other apostles. 2) "That office survives Peter." Again, we have no evidence of this from Christ or that this was the general position in the early Church. As above, we have no evidence of this power/office being granted in the first place. Indeed, the Roman Catholic Church grudgingly admits today that Papal Supremacy was NEVER accepted by the rest of the Church (see the Chieti document). Further, what the Roman apologist does here is he smuggles Papal Supremacy in under Papal Primacy--an ubiquitous and dishonest act. The Church DID hold Peter and the Church of Rome with a special regard. That is historically undeniable. What the dishonest Roman Apologist does is he conflates this (and the Papacy in general) with Papal Supremacy. He arranges the plate such that acknowledging Papal Primacy entails acknowledging Papal Supremacy. It is a clever trick, but still just a trick. 3) "That office must last until the end of time." Again, no evidence of this. Even if any of the above were true--and they are not--there are countless examples of God establishing something or someone and it only lasting for a time. "I might not be able to prove it logically, but it might be more probable that [Papal Supremacy] is true than that it is false." This is the argument that Suan Sonna has been pushing for awhile now, and it is garbage. The claim that Papal Supremacy "might be more probable" is useless. Unicorns are possible. That doesn't mean that we believe in them, use them as excuses to rule others, or tell others that they are going to hell if they don't embrace Unicorn-Supremacy. "Rome is supremely reliable." This is a common tactic of the Papal apologist: He points to a claim by this or that historical figure who proclaims the fidelity of Rome, and then just acts as if this claim is universally, eternally true. Conveniently, he ignores any and all claims to contrary, as seems to think that the fact that X wrote or said something is evidence that X is eternally true. Ybarra's entire project is based on a series of principles for which we just don't have any evidence in Scripture or the early Church. He argues that the purpose of Papal Supremacy is to unify the Church, and this is another argument that the Roman apologists make. However, as history clearly shows, Papal Supremacy has not only failed spectacularly at this, it has actually been a CAUSE of massive division and schisms. "Rome believes it had Supremacy, and Rome was regarded as being 'on the right side' throughout the first millennium." It is therefore unlikely that it is wrong about Papal Supremacy. Again, we are back to claims about possibilities... which are nonsense. Y says that Papal Supremacy prevails... by milligrams (or millimeters). I wonder if he would say the same if he put as much effort into proving it false as he had in proving it true.
This would be a pretty decent defense of the papacy if it didn’t contradict Vatican I’s teaching. Vatican I teaches that the Vatican I concept of the papacy was always known universally in the church. Mr. Ybarra’s minimalist claim is much more reasonable, but ultimately it can’t be squared with Vatican I. You can’t have John Henry Newman’s evolution of doctrine when it comes to the papacy, because the papacy said you can’t.
What’s the Vatican I dogmatics that is supposedly a novelty? Just to avoid the “Rambo bishop” caricature, some concepts must be explained for those of good faith and good will. It’s pretty basic, but not so much for anti-Catholics (almost certainly former Protestants) that just recently converted to Eastern Orthodoxy, I guess. Let me try to help here: *1) immediate jurisdiction:* it means that the primacy of Peter in the Apostolic collegiate didn’t signify the Apostles were recognized as a group and then the group subsequently decided - i.e., collegially - to recognize Peter’s leadership due to practicalities, but that the primacy was God-given, that means conferred directly by Christ, without mediation. It means the Bishop of Rome was not recognized historically as such to function as the leader of the universal church by the churches’ self-headed decision, but by Our Lord Jesus Christ Himself (“imediatum” in Latin means ‘without mediation’ or, in a more concrete sense, “direct by God”). That signifies that the Holy See, when issuing to exercise its leadership, has not received its due authority by the consensus of other churches, nor is subject to it in the strictest sense of the term, since its role is so by divine institution. Therefore, and just to exemplify, when the Bishop of Rome happens to act on the universal level (under the specifc circumstances justifiable), his decision is not subject to a synodical “referendum” to be applicable; Petrine authority derives from Christ himself (although, because of the sacramental nature of the Church - that means the Church “as a sacrament” - mediatory participation is preferable).
*2) universal jurisdiction:* it doesn’t mean, obviously, that Peter was recognized as a solipsistic leader in the apostolic collegiate; nor it meant - patently - the Successor of Peter is a bishop whose diocesan territory meant “the globe”. He is the Bishop of the diocese of Rome, where Peter’s succession was defined by death, but he is the ONLY one who could speak, as the unitive factor of the Church, on behalf of all the “oikumene”, just like Peter is the only of the Apostles who can speak by himself or - under specific circumstances - on behalf of all the Apostolic collegiate, as seen throughout both the biblical ecclesiological testimony in the Gospels and ecclesiastical history (despite denials of those in schism). To Peter alone Christ Jesus gave the keys of the kingdom ‘stricto sensu’ - and one can only say that “every apostle” received the keys ‘lato sensu’ or by means of participation in being in communion with Peter -, and we know that meant a king conferring power to his representative (= “vicarium”), just like in the Hebrew tradition one would understand how governance functions in a Davidic kingdom (Isaiah 22, 21-22), although the powers of binding and losing (the so called apostolic powers) were given further down to all of his brothers collectively. Therefore, this Petrine singularity and the subsequent collegiality predicate that Peter himself was commissioned with a specific OFFICE, so that this unique role in pastoring the flock of Christ (John 21, 15-17) signifies the Petrine commission to the feeding of the (universal) church. As St John Chrysostom says, _“And if any should say, “How then did James receive the chair at Jerusalem?” I would make this reply, that He appointed Peter teacher, not of this chair, but of the world”_ (Homily 88 on the Gospel of John). And there resides the reason of the blessing called “Urbe et Orbi” that the Popes give to us from Saint Peter Square in the Vatican City, the place of the martyrdom of Peter. This is a blessing to the city (= “urbe”) of Rome, as the Pope is “de iure” and in fact the Bishop of Rome; AND ALSO a blessing to the world or the universal Christianity (= “orbi”), as the Pope is “de iure” and in fact the single Sucessor of Peter and the true and one Pastor of the universal Church.
*3) supremacy:* it means a specific kind of episcopal primacy that is defined through a categorial difference, not really a difference of quantity of power, residing on the very kind of role exercised by the Successor of Peter that makes it different from the rankings of bishops at the organizational level of an archdiocese (archbishop), a metropolitanate (metropolitan) and a patriarchate (patriarch). Therefore, the primacies recognized by ecclesiastical matters (like archepiscopal, metropolitan or patriarchal) inside ecclesiastical canonical regulations are not applicable ‘mutatis mutandis’ to the primacy of the Successor of Peter, since the distinction is not on “quantity” of “episcopal primacy” under a territory but it is rather categorial, manifested in the power of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. EO usually conflates ecclesiology with ecclesiastical canon law, which should be an error from a Catholic point of view (entirely related to the inflation of power of the Byzantine Empire and the ecclesiastical capture of the power - quasi-episcopal, by the way - by the Emperor through the Imperial See of Constantinople). Still the word “supremacy” (‘supremum’) used by the Fathers of the Vatican Council in Latin does not predicate, as obvious, a tyrant universal leader; it’s referential to a leadership whose primatial role has no further point above, if checked among other kinds of ecclesiastical primacies. “Suprema” in Latin or “ανώτατος” (‘anótatos’) in Greek is a word seen during important occasions in the church of the first millennium to describe the position of Rome, even by the Byzantines (and it had zero relation to Byzantine flattery). So the word “suprema” means, strictly speaking, the superior point of nothing coming above, not autocracy, tyranny or whatever caricature can be made of it. In the USA there is the “Supreme Court” as the highest judicial authority and the guardian of the Constitution, but no one should think of the word “supreme” in any caricatural meaning to argue it should change the name to “Primate Court that is First Among Equals” (sorry about the quip). For example, the “gramatical susceptibilities” of anti-Catholics who may have converted to Eastern Orthodoxy and get furious over the mere word “supreme” (rectius: on what they think it means) can be strangely selective: the Greek Orthodox Patriarch of Alexandria (not the Coptic Patriarch) does not resonate with the very argument: the burlesque title _”His Most Divine Beatitude the Pope and Patriarch of the Great City of Alexandria, Libya, Pentapolis, Ethiopia, all the land of Egypt, and all Africa, Father of Fathers, Shepherd of Shepherds, Prelate of Prelates, thirteenth of the Apostles and Judge of the Œcumene"_ is ridiculously more pompous and pretentious then any of the official titles of the Bishop of Rome. I only post this to help people who are honestly discerning these things so that they are not wronged by Catholic (repetitive) misrepresentation. As far as “the papacy” telling no one should accept a theory of development to explain the papacy (the ecclesiology and the canon law behind it), well, it’s just too nonsensical to deserve a rational reply (in all due respect) that I could offer here. God bless you and yours!
Vatican I reaffirms what was stated at Ephesus: “Philip the presbyter and legate of the Apostolic See said: There is no doubt, and in fact it has been known in all ages, that the holy and most blessed Peter, prince (e!carkoj) and head of the Apostles, pillar of the faith, and foundation (qeme/lioj) of the Catholic Church, received the keys of the kingdom from our Lord Jesus Christ, the Saviour and Redeemer of the human race, and that to him was given the power of loosing and binding sins: who down even to to-day and forever both lives and judges in his successors.”
@@Vereglez-d4z Thanks, sister. Not only Ephesus (431): Chalcedon (451), Third Constantinople (680-681) and Second Nicaea (787) should make the same case, with some impressive manifestations. One of the greatest, nevertheless, is to compare the words of “Pastor Aeternus” (Vatican I) and one of the very Letters of St Agatho to the 6th Ecumenical Council (3rd Council of Constantinople, 680-681): __________ First Vatican Council, ‘Pastor Aeternus’, Chapter 4 (1870): _”(…) Indeed, _*_their apostolic teaching was embraced by all the VENERABLE FATHERS_*_ and _*_reverenced and followed by all the HOLY ORTHODOX DOCTORS,_*_ for they knew very well that this See of St. Peter always _*_REMAINS UNBLEMISHED by any error, in accordance with the divine promise_*_ of our Lord and Savior to the prince of his disciples: ‘I have prayed for you that your faith may not fail; and when you have turned again, strengthen your brethren‘ [Lk 22, 32]”_ __________ The Letter of Pope Saint Agatho to the Emperor (actas of the 6th EC, received with acclamation) (680-681): _“(…) because the true confession thereof for which _*_PETER_*_ was pronounced blessed by the Lord of all things, was revealed by the Father of heaven, for he received from the Redeemer of all himself, by three commendations, the duty of feeding the spiritual sheep of the Church; under whose protecting shield, _*_THIS Apostolic Church of his has NEVER TURNED AWAY from the path of truth in any direction of error,_*_ whose authority, as that of the _*_Prince of all the Apostles,_*_ the whole Catholic Church, and the Ecumenical Synods have faithfully embraced, and followed in all things; _*_and all the VENERABLE FATHERS have embraced its Apostolic doctrine,_*_ through which they as the most approved luminaries of the Church of Christ have shone; _*_and the HOLY ORTHODOX DOCTORS have venerated and followed it,_*_ while the heretics have pursued it with false criminations and with derogatory hatred. This is the living tradition of the Apostles of Christ, which his Church holds everywhere…. the firm rock of this Church of blessed Peter, the Prince of the Apostles, _*_which by his grace and GUARDIANSHIP REMAINS FREE FROM all error”_* . Vatican I uses the exact same language, almost word for word, in a clear parallelism (“Venerable Fathers” embracing; “Holy Orthodox Doctors” venerating/ reverencing and following). Honestly, it’s rather impressive that people even try to put those away. God bless!
10:45 til about 11:50 (so basically, you got to believe in development of doctrine to believe in the papacy because you wont see it explicitly in history ... because there is not clear manefestation or obvious facet....erm , not great start 😅😂)
So by that logic you would have to abandon all protestant churches & teachings because the solas were developmental and not found anywhere in scripture nor history. You would also have to abandon the EO church as well regarding their doctrinal developments when they allowed for various methods of contraception. Your illogic will eventually cause you to undermine the very foundation of the faith. . Doctrine that was developed after further being studied, clarified, and expanded in understanding of, support of and accordance with the early fathers does not render it invalid simply by virtue of it being "developed".
@@chad_hominem @Chadasana Moves I agree with the protestants being invalid , ofcourse they are! As for the Eastern orthodox church having doctrines developed I'm sorry you are wrong or ignorant. we clearly believe this is heretical. Paul said you have known my doctrine. Acts says they continued in the apostles doctrine. The problem with Roman Catholicism is the so called development is an evolution or change of kind from one idea into a fully fledged doctrine which as the clip says cannot be see clearly manifested. If you're like to say orthodox do the same then this is error. Explaining doctrine's isn't the same as snow balling primacy into supremacy. Being first isn't the same as being ruler. As for contraception Roman Catholics believe it's okay to prevent pregnancy by abstaining from intercourse during the fertile week, but will still have sex for the pleasure the other weeks of the month avoiding pregnancy. Now most would claim you can't use a condom to prevent pregnancy because you are abstaining from the possibility and only having the sexual act for pleasure. Don't you see the hypocrisy? And sure the condom can break allowing for a possibility. This being said the Roman Catholic church stance varies on the subject from priest and bishop. Their is no consistency. At least within Orthodoxy we have no clear dogma on a condom, though we have clear teaching on sex and the reasons for sex which give us our teaching on the subject. You now might claim but the priests and bishops teaching the use of xondoms as okay are wrong because the catechism says x,y and z.... Actually the teaching of the church is that the catechism doesn't contain only and all dogmas, and is able to be changed which is has been, numerous times. Speaking as a convert from protestantism into Roman Catholic (vetus ordo) and now western orthodox.
@@josephmary969 you might get a kick out of this 1 1/2 minute clip. It even brings up Honorius, who Erick brought up in this discussion: th-cam.com/video/Jgq1_oUQ388/w-d-xo.html
I think Erick Ybarra is overstating the case of the Papacy at the Sixth Ecumenical Council. Erick states that the bishops of Constantinople 681 subscribe to the letter of Agatho and have no objections to what is read out in it. I do not think this is correct. Pope Agatho in his letter makes it clear that all of the preceding Popes of Rome were Orthodox bishops. This is also the opinion of Roman Catholic scholar Hefele who writes that Pope Agatho's letter gives "the strong assurance, many times repeated, that all his predecessors had stood fast in the right doctrine, and had given exhortation to the Patriarchs of Constantinople in the correct sense" [Hefele, History of the Councils, Volume 5, tr. by William R. Clark (Edinburgh: 1896), p. 145]. Yet the bishops of Constantinople 681 clearly did not share in St. Agatho's opinion, and clearly considered that Agatho's predecessor Honorius was a heretic. I think therefore that the idea that the bishops of Constantinople 681 gave a blanket approval of Agatho's words and interpreted them literally, which Erick seems to be implying, to be a false interpretation.
Hi! Long time no see. So I have struggled with how to interpret the situation. I have consulted others, including the colleague that is working with Fr. Richard Price in his forthcoming volume of the Acts of Cple 681, and he recognizes what is a conundrum. Agatho's letter is interlaced with emphatic claims to Papal infallibility. You have to read the whole text carefully. While it is true that Agatho understood that the application of divine protection to Peter's see involved the pristine orthodoxy of all his predecessors (something which is still defensible, I might add), the Greek hierarchy at the Council not only translated the Latin of Agatho's letter word for word, but kept the claims to infallibility in the official Acts. When it came time to giving their assessment of Agatho's letter, they praise all of its contents as a divinely written letter written by God in Peter through Agatho. In other words, they did not simply read the letter and exaim it as being in agreement with the Council, but they lauded its divine origin in Petrinological terms. In fact the Emperor flat said the Pope wrote an infallible (not least inerrant) document in light of the Petrine protection. In light of Honorius's anathema, we can say that the Council both welcomes the belief in divine infallibility for the Roman See and that its occupants can err under certain conditions. If you reject Papal infallibility altogether, you truly have a bigger problem because you are rejecting a conciliar text that the Spirit left in the Acts by the discretion and judgment of the Council.
@@Erick_Ybarra "While it is true that Agatho understood that the application of divine protection to Peter's see involved the pristine orthodoxy of all his predecessors (something which is still defensible, I might add), the Greek hierarchy at the Council not only translated the Latin of Agatho's letter word for word, but kept the claims to infallibility in the official Acts." I cannot see how Honorius is at all to be seen as orthodox. The Sixth Ecumenical Council, The Seventh, The Council of Trullo, all see Honorius as a heretic, and there can be no way a heretic is orthodox. Of course, many scholars today may see in Honorius as espousing a two-will Christology, but why should they be preferred to the hundreds of holy fathers who clearly saw him as un-orthodox? "When it came time to giving their assessment of Agatho's letter, they praise all of its contents as a divinely written letter written by God in Peter through Agatho" The problem then is that the council then contradicts itself. If God said that all of Agatho's predecessors were orthodox and the council condemns Honorius for not being orthodox then holy council goes against God, the council would instead proclaim Honorius as orthodox and would not condemn him in subsequent sessions. "In other words, they did not simply read the letter and exaim it as being in agreement with the Council, but they lauded its divine origin in Petrinological terms." The council did examine the letter of Agatho. It was read out at session two and agreement with it was not given by Patriarch Saint George of Constantinople until the eighth session two months later. "In light of Honorius's anathema, we can say that the Council both welcomes the belief in divine infallibility for the Roman See and that its occupants can err under certain conditions." Or that it didn't take the claims of Saint Agatho regarding Rome's infallibility literally. The very same council declared that the Gates of Hades would never triumph over the Byzantine Empire, yet no Roman Catholic has taken that declaration literally. "If you reject Papal infallibility altogether, you truly have a bigger problem because you are rejecting a conciliar text that the Spirit left in the Acts by the discretion and judgment of the Council." The issue with this is that it cuts both ways. The Councils, for example, venerate as saints and holy people those that the Roman Catholic Church would today condemn as schismatics. Theophilus of Alexandria was praised as a saint at both Ephesus 431 and Constantinople 553, even though he died outside of communion with the Pope of Rome and flagrantly disregarded his support of Chrysostom. Three Patriarchs of Constantinople were seen as Orthodox by the Council of 681, even though they died outside of Rome's communion. Even the Fifth Ecumenical Council broke off communion with the Pope.
@@stdostoyevsky2931 St. Maximos the Confessor, Pope John VI, Anastasius Bibliothecarius, and, well presumably, many others, all defended Honorius. He was venerated as a Saint by Maximos, and he died in the peace of the Church, buried in Rome with honor. The Council condemned Honorius off the quick-jerk sight of "one will in Christ Jesus", when it was clearly the case, as shown by Maximos, that this is not what Honorius was teaching. Keep in mind, neither Pope St. Martin or St. Maximos were in good graces during the Council of Constantinople 681. As far as the Greeks were concerned, especially the Monothelite intelligentsia (imperial and all), Maximos was an enemy of the state. If you read Honorius's letters carefully, it is quite plain that he taught a two will Christology. If you'd like to discuss that in a live setting, I would be willing to do that with you. On the matter of the Council's judgment - Unfortunately, the Council shut away the wisdom of previous Church Fathers who decried the injustice of condemning people who had already passed away in the good graces of the Church. Both Rome and Constantinople bought into the legitimacy of posthumous anathema, ever since C'ple 553. That is not something that endured long, at least for the Catholic Church. Today, there is no canonical justice that would allow that. And rightly so, as it returns to the Patristic wisdom on the matter. And so I would say Councils can err in matters not related to dogmatic utterances. I am not a "Conciliar Fundamentalist" who believes everything Councils do must be right. Emperor Justinian ran the entire show of Constantinople (553), a clear case of Ceasaro-Papism. But it is also a case proving that the rule "what is done is what is right" or "what is acted out is always the definition of belief" is not, per se, true. Just because C'ple 553 was a Caasaro-Papist operation doesn't mean the Church's dogmatic tradition now embraces Caesaro-Papist. It was erroneous and it is happily drifting down the river of unhappy memory. Moreover, if you were to espouse the "Conciliar Fundamentalist" position, then this entire event of Agatho's letter to the Council poses an even greater problem. Because if Papal infallibility were not just a doctrinal error (for goodness sakes, the Orthodox require a renunciation of the Agathon dictum by Catholic converts), but was also explicitly contradicted, as you say, by the Greek fathers at C'ple 681, then they deliberately left an error in the Council, thereby completely falsifying Conciliar Fundamentalism. One simply can't read Agatho's letter as if it were meant to be a non-literal, hyperbolic, or sensational claim. I don't think that option is on the table. Well, there is a, prima facie, contradiction in the Council. The council in one place says all of Rome's predecessors were orthodox, and yet in another place says at 1 of them is a heretic. I think the problem with your position is that you are seeing Agatho's letter as an opinion from the Pope that they just so happen to have left in the Acts. That's not true. The Council praised Agatho's letter with no emendation, correction, or edition, and therefore made the full content of the letter *its very own utterance*. If you fix that mistake, you can at least make it to the platform where this debate is actually happening. I never denied that the Council examined it. In fact, I asserted so! What I said is that they did not *simply* examined it. They read it out loud, examined it, and then concluded that it was of divine origin according to Petrinological terms, something which only echoes the Petrine claims of the document itself. George did come around to admitting so in the normal senatorial fashion when each had to give public utterance to Agatho's letter. That only reinforces my point. I don't think this is tenable. It just doesn't make sense. On the other hand, about the Council's claims about the Byzantine Empire - I don't mind holding that to be literal either. Just read it carefully. But it does not cut both ways for a Catholic because we believe that emendation and edition is possible with non-dogmatic elements to Ecumenical Councils.
@@Erick_Ybarra "St. Maximos the Confessor, Pope John VI, Anastasius Bibliothecarius, and, well presumably, many others, all defended Honorius. He was venerated as a Saint by Maximos, and he died in the peace of the Church, buried in Rome with honor. The Council condemned Honorius off the quick-jerk sight of "one will in Christ Jesus", when it was clearly the case, as shown by Maximos, that this is not what Honorius was teaching." I'm sorry, but the overwhelming voice of the saints is that Honorius was a heretic. The Holy Spirit guided the minds of the Council of 681 when it condemned Honorius as a heretic, why would the Holy Spirit leave this in the acts? It also didn't stop the Seventh EC from condemning him as a heretic either. It's much more easier to suggest that, of your witnesses, one saint (Maximus) was wrong than to suggest that hundreds of saints were wrong. "Unfortunately, the Council shut away the wisdom of previous Church Fathers who decried the injustice of condemning people who had already passed away in the good graces of the Church." The Fifth Ecumenical Council with its 165 fathers clearly though that it was acceptable. So I don't see how they were ignoring the fathers at all. An Ecumenical Council had decided that it was suitable. "If you read Honorius's letters carefully, it is quite plain that he taught a two will Christology. If you'd like to discuss that in a live setting, I would be willing to do that with you." I'm sorry Erick but the councils are explicit on this manner. Honorius was a heretic. God, who knows the hidden depths of knowledge stored in man's hearts, clearly revealed to the councils that Honorius was a heretic, who also examined the letter carefully. Even if you are able to read orthodoxy in Honorius (which you can probably do for every heretic to ever exist), it doesn't change the fact that he was a heretic. "Just because C'ple 553 was a Caasaro-Papist operation doesn't mean the Church's dogmatic tradition now embraces Caesaro-Papist. It was erroneous and it is happily drifting down the river of unhappy memory." I'm sorry but this seems to me to suggest a mentality of "rules for thee but not for me". Orthodox are to accept Papal Supremacy and Vatican I because of councils like Constantinople 681 but Roman Catholics don't have to accept a council that very much goes against its ecclesiology. "That is not something that endured long, at least for the Catholic Church. Today, there is no canonical justice that would allow that. And rightly so, as it returns to the Patristic wisdom on the matter." I'm not sure why this is the case when several ecumenical councils (5th and 6th) allowed it. Even the Popes of Rome used it. Did not Pope Formusus dig up his deceased predecessor and condemn him? "Moreover, if you were to espouse the "Conciliar Fundamentalist" position, then this entire event of Agatho's letter to the Council poses an even greater problem. Because if Papal infallibility were not just a doctrinal error (for goodness sakes, the Orthodox require a renunciation of the Agathon dictum by Catholic converts), but was also explicitly contradicted, as you say, by the Greek fathers at C'ple 681, then they deliberately left an error in the Council, thereby completely falsifying Conciliar Fundamentalism. One simply can't read Agatho's letter as if it were meant to be a non-literal, hyperbolic, or sensational claim. I don't think that option is on the table." The option is to me the most plausible option. Listen to what Saint Agatho says on the promise of Peter "Let your tranquil Clemency therefore consider, since it is the Lord and Saviour of all, whose faith it is, that promised that Peter’s faith should not fail and exhorted him to strengthen his brethren, how it is known to all that the Apostolic pontiffs, the predecessors of my littleness, have always confidently done this very thing." In other words, Agatho states that according to Christ the Popes of Rome will never fail to strengthen their brethren, yet the council says that Pope Honorius of Rome did this very thing that Agatho says was impossible to do! The only way I can see getting around this issue is by saying that they didn't take very word of the Pope literally. There seems to me no other alternative explanation that doesn't come across as contrived or anachronistic. "Well, there is a, prima facie, contradiction in the Council. The council in one place says all of Rome's predecessors were orthodox, and yet in another place says at 1 of them is a heretic." Except the council didn't say it, Pope Agatho's letter to the Council said it. You seem to think that every document that is accepted at an Ecumenical Council must have all of its content accepted and approved by the council. On the contrary, the fact that Agatho's letter defends Honorius but the Council fathers condemn him only serves to show that the Council Fathers did not accept as true every word or idea that was contained in the letter. Another example of this would be Sophronius of Jerusalem's letter to Patriarch Sergius, in which the former calls the latter many titles such as 'shepherd of shepherds' and clearly states that he is orthodox, but we now that the council, despite endorsing Sophornius' letter, clearly did not agree with the contents of said letter with regards to Sergius' character. Agatho's letter was not the council, it was a document accessed by the council fathers and judged correct with regards to its dyotheletism and incorrect with regards to the orthodoxy of the previous bishops of Rome. The council judged that the letter of Agatho was correct and God-inspired in its profession of monothelietism and in *that* sense became the voice of the council, not in its declaration that the Popes were always orthodox. "I think the problem with your position is that you are seeing Agatho's letter as an opinion from the Pope that they just so happen to have left in the Acts. That's not true. The Council praised Agatho's letter with no emendation, correction, or edition, and therefore made the full content of the letter *its very own utterance*. If you fix that mistake, you can at least make it to the platform where this debate is actually happening." Well in my view they did correct the letter. The letter as stated declares that all the popes prior to Agatho were orthodox, but the council corrects this by declaring in its definition, and its letters to the Pope and Emperor that Honorius was a heretic. They didn't need to edit what was presented to them as a "suggestions" (Schaff and Wace, NPNF, 2.14, p. 342). Secondly, heretical writings are in the council's acts, such as Honorius' letter, yet they are not considered the utterance of the council, because the council in its acts and words condemns the contents of these heretical letters. Yet that does not mean that they disagreed with *everything* written in those letters. Honorius' letter contains many orthodox statements such as how Christ's flesh is not from heaven but from Mary, was that heretical? Of course not. In a similar fashion they read the letter of Agatho and considered it godly inspired, but that they did not consider every idea or concept in it to be Orthodox dogma, as shown by their correction of the letter's idea that Pope Honorius was orthodox. "I don't think this is tenable. It just doesn't make sense. On the other hand, about the Council's claims about the Byzantine Empire - I don't mind holding that to be literal either. Just read it carefully." It makes perfect sense to me and to many others. What you are attempting to do is harmonize what cannot be harmonized. You are trying to fit a square peg into a round hole. You want *all* of Agatho's letter to be the voice of the council as well as the declaration of the council that goes against the letter in condemning Pope Honorius, something disallowed by Agatho's letter. I on the other hand can simply say that the council, in its definition and letters, corrected what they found to be wrong in Agatho's letter. "But it does not cut both ways for a Catholic because we believe that emendation and edition is possible with non-dogmatic elements to Ecumenical Councils." Yet the same Spirit by your logic that ensures Papal Infallibility is in the acts is also the same spirit that allows a host of things incompatible with Catholic thinking to be in them in the first place. It doesn't sound correct at all. The Fifth Ecumenical Council with its 165 fathers clearly though that it was acceptable. So I don't see how they were ignoring the fathers at all.
@@stdostoyevsky2931 BeforeI respond to this through typing, would you accept an offer to speak with me on this? I invite people to do so in the video with Austin. If not this, how about a phone conversation ? Anything but typing if possible.
(Re: Pope Francis) “People will say that in the comments anyway” 😂😂😂😂. Honestly I feel like we gotta trust the Holy Spirit, who works through us and sometimes *despite* us…that Wind who blows where It will….
Yeah, I think I'll just go with Orthodoxy. Catholicism just has so many non axiomatic hoops to jump through and loopholes. That, and it seems like every time the Pope says something the apologists are scrambling to cover his tracks.
I have to say that I understand and sympathize with your perspective. Catholics do this. However, is Orthodoxy without fault or any semblance of incoherence?
I considered Orthodoxy, but I can't identify the Orthodox Church. The autocephalous churches don't make claims to infallibility - i.e. a local patriarch can teach heresy. And the way to settle such disputes, an ecumenical council, has not occurred in close to 1000 years now because the Orthodox theologians disagree on what makes a council binding. In fact, Eastern Orthodox logic makes me think I could be Oriental Orthodox and the two are not in communion with each other. And Russia is using the same argument Greece used in 1054 to call Moscow the 3rd Rome, leading to a schism in current year. TL;DR The grass is not greener on the Orthodox side.
@@Erick_Ybarra Thank you for the reply. As we know, nothing is perfect. I think the use of 'coherent' is a good word because i think it's the coherence of Orthodox theology that draws me moreso than any "faults" of Catholicism
From the start, I find Ybarra's criteria for what evidence we should be finding in the patristic era of the Church to be insufficient. The doctrine of the papacy is as follows: The Bishop of Rome, on account of his role as the successor of St. Peter, possesses the unique charism of supremacy (meaning he is the universal bishop of all Christians and has direct authority over every other diocese) and is infallible, as he cannot err when defining matters of faith and morals. In Catholicism, the pope has the authority to act with or without the approval of the universal synod of bishops. THAT is the standard. The Catholic apologist then has two options: he can try to defend this doctrine with evidence from Scripture and the Fathers, or he can admit that these beliefs about the prerogatives of the Bishop of Rome are later developments in church history (which is the Orthodox position). So this begs the question: Do we find sufficient scriptural and patristic evidence that the Bishop of Rome acted in supremacy in authority and infallibility in his teaching? Not even close.
What form of Christianity today believes that the everlasting design of ecclesiology includes the singular headship of St. Peter and his perpetual successors in the Roman episcopate governing the Church as the principle of unity for the universal Church until the end of time? I'll be waiting for the options, my friend :D . I think it would be better to just say, "We don't need to be continuous with the early Church", which is the relaxation one gets from being within Protestantism.
@@Erick_Ybarra That would be the Roman Catholic Church, not the early Church. The early Church held that each community of Christians under the authority of a local bishop IS the fullness of the Church (St. Ignatius of Antioch, Letter to the Smyrnaeans), that all bishops are heirs to the promise of Peter (St. Cyprian, Epistle 26; St. Jerome, Letter 14), no bishop is a universal bishop above all others (St. Gregory the Great, Epistle 20), and that each local church is in charge of its own affairs (7th Council of Carthage, 1st Council of Constantinople, Canon 2). I could go on. While your answer is certainly poetic, I welcome you to actually rise up to the challenge and show papal supremacy and infallibility in action during the patristic era.
@@StoneRobbins Ok, but let's just start with your initial criticism. I gave an "irreducible minimum" of what needs to be shown in the Patristic documentation in order to form a good argument for organic development. I listed 3 or 4 things. You asserted that those 3 or 4 things don't point towards Catholicism. I don't even have to be a Catholic to accept this argument. It is, first and foremost, a working theory. Now, if it is the case that the Patristic witness contains those 3 or 4 things, then what Church other than the Catholic Church is in organic continuity with it? Remember, your argument was that my criteria is faulty to the point I was making.
@@Erick_Ybarra I appreciate your clarification. My point on this end is that the criteria listed is (in my view) much too broad to narrow itself down to the papacy. Primus inter pares could also in theory fit that set of criteria. In the absence of any clear expression of papal supremacy or belief in infallibility, one essentially is left with admitting that these beliefs are developments of the western church, not central to the faith handed to the Apostles.
Go back further. If you study the Jewish roots of the faith you understand the significant of the Keys to Temple and Governance. Jesus gave all the Apostles special gifts but He only gave Peter the Keys. I recommend reading jewish sage Rashi's writings on the significance of the Keys to ancient Israelite kingdoms and the people. CC has unbroken documented evidence for succession of Peter through to Pope Francis. From conception the “Church” was an OFFICIAL sect within Judaism. When you read Acts 1 and if you are familiar with Halakhah Law you will immediately notice that the Church is a legal entity WITHIN Judaism. There are 3 requirements which are met. Firstly, notice that there are 120 members in this synagogue. Why is this important? It is the exact number of persons in the Halakhah regulations to form a full fledged synagogue. Judaism and Catholicism were born on Shavuot/Pentecost. To this day the Catholic Conclave has a maximum limit of 120 electors to elect the Pope. Secondly next according to Halakhah regulations there must be a "beit din" (Hebrew court) formed. We see that there is a beit-din and it draws lots and Matthias a disciple is chosen to take over Judas bishopric (episkopen). The first example of Apostolic Succession. So two of the three requirements are met. The third requirement is that there must be a NASI (prince/temporal) and an AB (father/spiritual) appointed. Curiously Peter is filling both these positions in this beit din. Why? In 190 BC the Kohan Gadol (jewish high-priest) fell into apostasy and bei-din gadol (Hebrew court) cast a vote of no confidence splitting the Kohan Gadol into two offices the "NASI" and the "AB" within the Beit Din Gadol. Fast forward to Matt16, in this new Beit Din Gadol (70 disciples) Christ has placed His confidence in Peter (the first AB/father/pope meaning papa) by presenting him the Keys to the temple/governance bringing the two offices back into one high priesthood the way it originally was. The pope has both temporal and spiritual powers. Peter is the NASI prince of the apostles and the AB/pope (Pope meaning papa - meaning father) as you see even today the pope as Peters documented unbroken apostolic successor is both ‘nasi’ and the ‘ab’ in Catholicism. Rashi/Jewish sage writes a commentary on the priestly role of the steward/vizier of the Davidic Kingdoms. The Keys are the keys of the Temple and Authority. When the Davidic kings were away the steward/vizier was in charge and he wore the keys the King gave him so the citizens knew who he was. The steward is given the sash/robes/keys to the temple because the role is also a priestly role. The keys were then passed onto a successor when that steward died/removed. (Isaiah 22 v15-25) The Apostles knew exactly what had occurred when Jesus gave Peter the keys. Jesus presents the keys to Peter (Pope/ab) and appoints him/his successors as His royal steward to care for HIs flock until His return. First book of Kings lists all the Kings and the royal steward/vizier is always listed next to the King because in the absence of the King he was in charge of the Kingdom. Christ also renames Peter (the only Apostle renamed) as Abraham and Jacob were renamed by God in preparation for their specific role in salvation history. Jesus, Son of David rebuilt the davidic kingdom as per 2SamCh7 - He is the King, His mother is Gebirah, Peter/successor Popes are His royal stewards/viziers and the Hebrew court/beit-din is the Magisterium. Catholicism is not a new religion, it is the legitimate continuation of Temple Judaism (not Rabbinic Judaism). Catholics do not throw out what God has revealed prior and continues to hold that all that is revealed is a single continuous revelation culminating in the Catholic Faith. Ancient Templ Judaism and Catholicism is the same faith in two covenants one old and another new. Jesus created a Melchezidek priesthood (which pre-exists the Aaronic priesthood). This is why all Catholic priests belong to the order of Melchizedek, the fulfilment of the theophany of Melchizedek giving wine/bread to Father Abraham.
Could only take about 25 minutes of this spinning. Just a bunch of circular reasoning and bs based on I think etc. So weak! Easy to see why people are moving in mass to the Orthodox Church.
The issue with Ybbaras argument is that there are concepts in the early church such as the Christian Emperor which are not operative today. There is an important difference between dogmas which are unchanging parts of the new covenant and the spiritual significance the church bestows on certain things ie athos is part of the orthodox faith but it has no dogma. Same when there was a tsar. Finally Rome preserving the apostolic tradition isn’t the result of magic powers. It’s because AT was not given equally. Some places were exposed more than others to the “deposit”. Peter and Paul’s presence gave Rome a physically larger body of tradition than almost anywhere especially in the west. That’s why people what there opinion
And should we not heed Rome’s position on its own prerogatives if it has received more tradition than the others? The consistent orthodoxy of Rome in the early church is actually a reason to think Rome was also orthodox in its view of its own authority…
@@lucaspacitti182 Rome had Paul to themselves for several years and marks gospel was dictated there. Also Rome was a communication hub. And people looked to other sees as well. But you can see how Paul’s presence in Rome gave the west a more Pauline character while Johns extended stay in Greece made the Greek church more Jonhanine
@@jebbush2527 Yes but Rome doesn’t seem to be aware of it’s prerogatives for quite some time ie the arguments Rome makes about deposing nesotorius are not based on universal supremacy. All the elevations of Rome point to other factors like it being the imperial city, having tradition, church canons. They don’t say there is a unique office located in Rome that could be moved elsewhere that has certain dogmatic properties. V1 goes the other way and explicitly rejects the idea that the popes authority is based or founded on anything accept the office.
@@esoterico7750 Rome had Paul for only some 5 years, most of which he was arrested. Jerusalem had the 12 Apostles for 7 years. It's not a question of "larger body of Tradition".
32:00. Here is an excellent example where belief in apostolic succession by the bishop of Rome was wrong. Because Irenaeus told Bishop Victor that Polycarp had reported to him that he had celebrated Easter with John and the other apostles on Nisan 14 (even if it did not fall on Sunday) and called it “ancient tradition.” But the claim by Victor of celebrating Easter on Sunday, which he claimed was based on “apostolic tradition“ was false, but rather based on recent tradition. So as late as the end of the second century, we don’t have a solid example of valid apostolic succession through the Bishop of Rome.
Pope Anicletus chose to maintain a diversity of practices on the day of celebrating Easter. However, the Church moved into a direction where she wanted to consolidate. That is very normal. The quarto-decimans, i.e., those who followed the strict tradition of Ephesus/Asia, such as St. Polycarp, were soon deemed schismatics, especially since they condemned those who did not celebrate on the 14th day of Nisan precisely, as well as imposing other Judaizing norms upon the Church.
St Anatolius, Paschal Canon, 8, circa 270: "not acquiescing, so far as regards this matter, with the authority of some, namely the successors of Peter and Paul..." On the Quartodeciman faction, suppressed at the Councils of Arles and Nicea.
@@Erick_Ybarra actually, it was "Pope" Victor who threatened to excommunicate the churches who held to Quartodecimanism: “Victor, who presided at Rome tried to cut off from the common unity as heterodox all the Asian dioceses…announcing the absolute excommunication of all the brethren there. The bishops sharply reprimanded Victor. Among them was Irenaeus…not to excommunicate entire churches of God for following ancient traditions: ‘Some think that they ought to fast for one day, other for two or even more…. Such variation in observance did not begin in our own day but much earlier in the time of our predecessors…. Among these also were the presbyters before Soter who headed the church over which you now preside - I mean Anicetus, Pius, Telesphorus, & Xystus. They themselves did not observe it, nor their followers…. Anicletus could not persuade Polycarp not to observe it, since he had always done so with John, our Lord’s disciple, and the other heads of the apostles who he knew’” (Eusebius’ Church History, Book 5.25). So, as you can see, Victor was wrong.
@@Erick_Ybarra according to Eusebius: Bishop Polycrates held to the Quartodeciman position. The bishops of Asia also held to this position & was threatened with excommunication by him, which was held previously by Polycarp. And Irenaeus wrote that Polycarp had "always done so with John, our Lord's disciple, and the other apostles he knew." Polycrates also wrote that "Philip, one of the twelve apostles" along with his two of his aged, virgin daughters, and a third daughter who rests in Ephesus, Melito of Sardis, and several other bishops "all these kept the 14th day of Nisan as the start of the paschal festival...but if I write their names, there will be many." So, not only were those who held to the Quartodeciman position older, but also more numerous. So, again, "Pope" Victor was wrong.
You're great Austin. I was a Baptist (and anti-Catholic) when I started listening to your great content. Your visit to a Catholic Church made a lasting impression on me and on my journey to become a Catholic.
Obrigado por sua franqueza, professor! Bem-vindo à Santa Igreja Católica, como dizemos os católicos no Símbolo dos Apóstolos! Assisti a uma palestra sua sobre direito humanitário e me impressionei muito positivamente. Não tive a honra de ser seu aluno, mas cursei uma especialização em Direito Penal na Universidade de Salamanca, o que muito me marcou (inclusive porque sua tradição histórica universitária, já desde os 1200s, não foi tanto a teologia sacra quanto o direito canônico, área de particular interesse meu). Comecei logo ali a admirar o “Ius Gentium” dos dominicanos de Salamanca e dos jesuítas de Coimbra. Longo conto, escrevo só para dizer apenas que, como falam por aí, “Petro Origo Unitatis”! Fraternalmente (do Brasil), abs.
@@masterchief8179 muito obrigado. Por acaso estou neste momento no Brasil, em Campinas. O direito humanitário também contribuiu para a mudança do meu pensamento, ao compreender como a teologia católica de Agostinho, Aquino, Bernardo de Claraval, Suárez, Vitória e Molina, entre muitos outros, contribuíram para o lançamento das suas bases.
Welcome home!
Amazing! Praise God! And bless God for your openness.
Austin you are helping so many people becoming Catholic! (Including myself)
Austin still a protestant. Don't be fooled. He just wants subscriber from Catholic community.
As a former Baptist, now Catholic, there are some things about evangelicalism that I find theologically disturbing: 1) the enmity between evangelicals and the woman (Mary) whose seed will save us from our sins; 2) the interpretation of "this is my body" and "this is my blood" as meaning "this is not really my body" and "this is not really my blood", thus ignoring the Eucharist as the medicine of imortality that feeds and unites the Church; 3) ignoring the direct words of Jesus about Peter being the Rock upon which the Church is built; 4) understanding the Church as a set of individuals with a direct and private relation with Jesus and not as members of the historical and universal Body of Christ in communion with all Saints.
Well stated! 😊
Not every Protestant 1) Hates Mary, 2) Denies no presence in the Lord's Supper (see John Calvin on Spiritual Presence - he would even say we feed on the body and blood of Christ!), 3) Not ignoring those words, but also taking the related passage of John 20 into consideration, and 4) is an exclusively baptistic/contemporary evangelical thing, not so for those in Anglicanism/Reformed/Lutheran traditions.
Brother I must ask you, did you consider that your Baptist views might not necessarily be representative of all Protestants? And that you may also find a more accurate and true Christian faith in other Protestant traditions?
@@hewziheng That's only proves , that protestants don't hold whole truth , too much diversity among them .By the way How anyone can even hates Mary?,, Not every protestant hates Mary'' That's mean that some do.They might disagree , but hating, this is unacceptable.
@@hewziheng claiming that Jesus meant his spirit body is the same as saying Jesus didn’t mean that it was his body. His body is his body and he said his body was actual food. And no Protestant denomination can have the full faith by virtue that they are in rebellion to the successors of the apostles and especially and specifically Peter.
@Jónatas Machado - great points Jonatas. I look at the woman in Rev 12, and particularly verse 17 'rest of her offspring' , those of us who have Mary (& The Church) as our Mother, as the twain are inseparable!
Thank you Austin for kickstarting my journey towards catholicism. I just got confirmed last week, Praise the Lord!
Praise God! welcome!
Welcome to the universal church!
Eric is one of the fairest minded people I've come across. He is willing to disagree with apologists on his own "side" when needed. He is very good on this subject.
Such a fan of Erick. When I was Protestant, I remember hearing the likes of Catholic Answers claim that every Christian before Luther basically all believed in the same (Catholic) stuff. Intrigued, I started reading the Church Fathers and was disappointed by how this evidentally wasn't the case. For a time, this simplistic argumentation put me off Catholicism. But the likes of Ybarra, and his fair, nuanced approach to history, brought me to conversion.
Praise God!
To be fair, Erick truly steelmans the case against Catholicism to the point of disbelief. I remember I became convinced of Catholicism by just reading the fathers myself with little input from apologists. Nothing against Erick but I don't think that was the approach of the church. The church always knew its identity. Neutrality was never present in the church. The church is where the faith was kept, when Clement wrote to Corinthians about Schism, when Irenaeus pointed everyone to Rome, when Ignatius declared them to rule in charity. When the bishop of Smyrna clashed with Pope Victor on Easter. When I surveyd the fathers I saw Rome acting as a supreme court and always saw quotations regarding it being the see of Peter. Now, could I still make some Orthodox case, perhaps but then again there seemed to be at least even footing. The faith was not delivered to the nuanced and big brained. The faith was delivered. Period. God would not let the world dwell in darkness. So history would showcase the true church. Its successes and failures and of course its evangelism.
@@jackdaw6359 I agree, but someone like Ybarra is necessary to keep the dialogue possible. Ultimately, each of us is called to accept or refuse the Truth, and Ybarra's charitable approach allows non Catholics to take full responsibility for their decisions.
This was a great interview. He presented everything in a calm, thoughtful and logical manner. As a result he was very persuasive. He also didn’t make me feel as if I was trying to drink from a fire hose. His presentation was on a level the common person could understand.
Prayerful. I believe what you’re seeing is the result of a strong prayer life
Thank you Austin, this was great. Loved this guest. I think I’m twice as Catholic as before. 😉
Thanks Austin for having the boldness and courage to engage on this most central topic concern about the question of petrine authority. I pray you can call Rome a sweet home sometime soon. Im celebrating my 12th year as a Catholic and my third as a priest. There has not been one day I have regretted entering this Catholic Communion. I know it would be a major decision for you and impact your personal and public life. I realize we never had that direct personal discussion as things have been really busy for my first year at two parishes. Lets connect in a couple weeks.
Jesus wants us as One. A unity in Christ. Anything that broke us or breaks us apart goes against Him and his Kingdom.
Absolutely fantastic discussion.
Thank you both.
Eric’s points at toward the end regarding popes vs heresies were extremely informative.
-An Orthodox brother in Christ.
What I find very good about Austin s interview style - is he allows each person to state their case - while asking challenging yet respectful questions to help the listeners better understand the position of the presenter. Great job Austin!
And kudos to Eric Ybarra for his insights on the papacy - which are exhaustive without any preconceived notions towards one side or the other.. I appreciate how he presents the history and let’s the reader (or listener) come to their own conclusions. Great job!
Thanks, Mike!
This was a great show 🙏
One of the most knowledgeable and fair-minded defenders of the papacy! Great video!
well said.
I honestly read “the most delayed interview I’ve ever done on the papacy”
Same!!
Lol. But well, to a point, yes 😂
@Erick Ybarra thanks for explaining. @Gospel Simplicity @Austin thanks for inviting Erick Ybarra back on your channel. Your Catholic brother Robert from Puerto Rico 🇵🇷
Roberto tapia you should watch cira international and Lloyd de jongh and reasoned answers and godlogic apologetics on TH-cam and watch all the channels on TH-cam roberto tapia 😀😀😀😀😀😀
@@efrencruz4422 I agree with all those. Lloyd is hitting it out of the park every video for a while now but they are all great recommendations.
"And Jesus answered him, 'Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jona! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven. And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.'" ~ Matthew 16:17-19 (RSVCE)
Well, have you ever asked the Holy Fathers what do they think about this passage? I mean, what does "this rock" (Mt 16:18) refer to? St John Chrysostom says that it refers to the CORRECT CONFESSION of who Christ is that Peter had just made, not to Peter himself. By the way, this is not exclusive to Chrysostom, there are other Holy Fathers of this opinion.
@@fernandoxavier5688 1) Having that view doesnt negate also why Simon becomes Peter, OR the primacy of Peter.
2) John Chrysostoms notes on the gospels also mention the primacy of Peter, here a quote that comes to mind with a source.
“Jesus said to Peter, ‘Feed my sheep’. Why does He pass over the others and speak of the sheep to Peter? He was the chosen one of the Apostles, the mouth of the disciples, the head of the choir. For this reason Paul went up to see him rather than the others. And also to show him that he must have confidence now that his denial had been purged away. He entrusts him with the rule [prostasia] over the brethren. . . . If anyone should say ‘Why then was it James who received the See of Jerusalem?’, I should reply that He made Peter the teacher not of that see but of the whole world.” (Homilies on John, 88.1).
@@fernandoxavier5688 Just taking one Church Father gravely out of context so as to deny the papacy won’t do it any good for the Catholic/Non-Catholic dialogue.
And now reads Act 15.
@@fernandoxavier5688 Oh, Fernando, by the way, I’ve not even quoted Latin texts of the first millennium and and I have not brought some of the most important Eastern texts either.
I bought his book a bit ago and it is VERY good
What a wonderful conversation
Thank you Austin and Erick 🙏🏻
Austin, you are miles beyond the "invincible ignorance" line in the sand. This interview was amazing and persuasive. I very much hope to be in communion with you someday.
This is great Austin. Can't wait.
Erick Ybarra is an excellent example of knowledgeable, honest and charitable Catholic.
This was very educational conversation. Thank you
Hi Austin. It has been a long time since I have been online and commenting on videos. Great questions for Erick and nicely framed to generate sincere and reflective replies. 😊
Wonderful discussion
In every Generation the Visibility of Catholic Church through Petrine Office is the big Third point here to be made. Vicar of Christ for a reason.
Another point for Catholicism is God is Literally living within the Catholic Churches in Tabernacles, in the Holy Eucharist. God is truly with us, in Body, soul and Divinity, Emmanuel! He will be here with us till the End of Ages.
Happy Easter to all btw!
Christ is Indeed Risen!
Alleluia! 🙏🏻
I want to try those coffee beans!!! 😋
I make my coffee the night before and in the morning I crawl out of bed, push the button, and read my Bible until all my kids wake up! Lol
Having arrived at Orthodoxy largely through patristics studies, I disagree with his ultimate conclusion, but I sincerely appreciate his irenic spirit.
Got to be one of your best videos Austin!
A very interesting video, thanks for both of your time gentlemen!
This is a good approach for any sort of historical exploration. History is piecemeal. We don't have access to every thought, and in many cases we don't see the ancients being concerned with some of the questions we have today. It takes a lot of careful contextual analysis to parce out how they would respond to our questions.
Yes can't wait for this I've learned so much from @Erick Ybarra thanks for having him on again please ask him about other topics to or please invite him for another topic. Thanks Robert from Puerto Rico 🇵🇷
Very cool to see other people from Puerto Rico that are also interested in these topics. 🇵🇷 🇵🇷
Erick Ybarra is a great defender of the Papacy and Filioque from an historical perspective. He frames it as a defense against the EO, which makes the case that much better.
Yeah, well nice job brother 👏🏻
Great to see the Dialogue!
Really excited to see you become Catholic soon! 💙❤️
bro that's crap, let the guy be a protestant with an open mind, we need many more like him
@@mjramirez6008 Catholics are the most Open minded brother. It's his Journey bro, that is what he said that is why he is open to all Christian community in Search of Truth and that doesn't have to stop there if he becomes Catholic. He is discerning his way to God. I hope that he becomes Catholic it's a desire in good faith. What's wrong in that? I would really Love that he come to know more deeply the Riches of Catholic Faith as I came to know it, and was in Awe. If One comes to know the Truth and Loves it more than anything, he will Shout it out from Tops of the Mountains. He doesn't have to break relationship or stop talking to his other friends. If he becomes Catholic mate. Many Catholics keep the friends even after they chose to become Catholic. Though I agree it is hard to Leave all behind to Say I want to become Catholic from a Non-Catholic denomination.
Last of all I would say this, No other Church denomination could claim God is With Us. As in 'Emmanuel' as Catholics claim. Do you know the reason why?
Simply because he dwells in the Tabernacles of a Catholic Church in Holy Eucharist. And Literally God is with Us!!! He will be there till the End of times with his Visible Church. Which is One Holy, Catholic and Apostolic in nature. 🙏🏻
@@delvingeorge2807 Catholics are not open minded. The Catholics I've interacted with have been among the worst people I've ever met. I actually had a crisis of faith over it, and those same Catholics just kicked me while I was down, blaming my doubts on my being a Protestant, etc.
@@delvingeorge2807 sure Delvin but he's said Orthodoxy appeals to him more than Catholicism... maybe taking as a given that he's becoming Catholic is having the opposite effect... Blessings.
@@mjramirez6008 We've got Byzantine and Syriac Churches too. Hence the name Catholic. I am a Syro-malabar Catholic.
Yes he said that but everything appealing is not true always is what I believe.
God bless you too mate!
Peace of Christ Jesus be with you!🙏🏻
Hi Austin. I love your Spirit. I just watched your interview with Matt Fradd on Pints with Aquinas and have found your channel in order to tell you what I have experienced as a Convert to Catholicism. I am now entrenched as a Catholic and won't go back, largely beacause of the Eucharist, but at times I wonder if I made the right choice because as a convert to Catholicism there are many things I miss: First: The fervour of the faith in my cobelievers, because now I am treated like an anomally, "who do you think you are? A saint?" Just because I really love the Lord. Second, No home groups. Gosh I miss those and when I tried to establish one it fell on deaf ears, people seem to share their faith only within families. If you are an outsider without a resident Catholic family, fellowship is almost non-existant. Third, It is so hard for my daughters to find true believers to partner with. They are almost non-existant. Fourth, Traditional Catholics think they are better than the Novis Ordo and dismiss the Glory and Praise hymns which are so beautiful and from the heart, thinking that ancient chants are the only way to go. I feel that the TLM does not minister to the African nations or even South American where the ancient liturgy has little history - OK I know Our Lady of Guadalupe helped convert Mexico but many Mexicans or South Americans don't consider Catholicism Christian and they are part of Evangelical denominations. Even our Pope has been dismayed by how effectively the Evangelicals have converted the Amazon and hense the Amazon Synod where a Pachymama found its self at the alter (That is a debatable tactic for conversion). Many Priests and Nuns are associated with sexual sins in the Americas and much of it is true. So their is a splintering happening in the faith between TLM and Novis Ordo as well as all the scandals which is hard to take and defend. Fifth, I have come to pray the rosary, but miss also talking to God as a form of prayer and feel that the Rosary is lifted up higher than that interpersonal relationship. Lately, I have been doing both, but am dismayed that one is deemed greater than the other. So, I miss being Protestant, but I like being able to go to my church daily and receive Christ if I want to. Its just my walk is more lonely. Make the right choice and be aware of the pros and cons. God bless you.
Eric wonderful job, outstanding, very fair, I am sorry I doubted you, that is the kind of presentation that could bring unity, well done Austin
Great video! Thank you dr. Ybarra!
Erick Y - please do your job well ! Austin said once the papacy is sorted out for him, he will join Cameron Bertuzzi! May God filled and overflow you with the HS! God bless !
Hello, Jeremiah! One thing that is often perceptible in the field of apologetics is that non-Catholic apologists most certainly try to prove not so much their position historically and theologically; they ostensibly hit on the Catholic one instead, and then present theirs (implicitly or even explicitly) as the alleged “default”. So anti-Catholic apologetics concerning the papacy will certainly come to picking two or three polemical popes (Virgilius and Honorius, maybe, just maybe Liberius) of the first millennium and-or two or three ecclesiastical events in the history of the church (not uncommonly related to those very popes), and present a particular anti-Catholic interpretation, at the same time they utterly dismiss the Catholic interpretations for them. But what is curious of this pattern is that they tend to avoid some “unavoidable” theological and historical facts, like, for example, the reality that there weren’t important written “papal polemics” pretty much until the Photian Schism (863-867), when the first serious writings against Rome were ever produced, even ignoring the later writings of Photius’ “pretty papal” views after communion with Rome was reestablished, for instance (that would be seemingly unacceptable for EO post-Great schism, by the way). At the same time, anti-Catholic apologists don’t find the need to seriously engage and justify the massive amount of saints in the Patristic era that talked about how the Roman headship in the Church of the 1st millennium at the universal level operated East and West (with clear manifestations of jurisdiction, not an honorific-only type of leadership), or about papal acts and injunctions in the ‘oukoumene’ on the gravest matters of Church life, or the massive writings of the saints concerning this authority, even connecting supremacy and the measuring-rod of the orthodox faith with the Petrine ministry of Rome (and the promise of Our Lord made to Peter), or the fact that papal supremacy - and even infallibility - were arguably manifested through a number of documents of Ecumenical Councils themselves, mostly Ephesus (431), Chalcedon (451), Third Constantinople (680-681) and Second Nicea (787). No, no, no. They most certainly will come with things like “it was Byzantine flattery” or “the Eastern bishops were insincere” or “they accepted the claims only through the convenience of reuniting the Church” or “the Ecumenical Councils only accepted the papal claims of letter X or Y or Z because the popes (or their legates) were on the correct side of the disputed matter in the Councils” or “Rome had up to some specific point of history a great record for orthodoxy”, and so forth. Even serious theologians may act just like that in some of their anti-Catholic scholarships! While one can be microscopically picking events in history to try to undermine the papacy (discrediting Catholic explanations for those, as if it was just ‘explaining away’), the same one can act almost blind to serious attestations of things that would be, for non-Catholic people, nothing but blatant and intolerable heresies written by enormous saints of Latin, Greek and Syriac Patristics and even documents approved by Ecumenical Councils. I’m not trying to bash anyone, but that ‘modus operandi’ is shared by likes of Ubi Petrus/Jay Dyer and Gavin Ortlund among online apologetics. It never ceases to impress me how they can even say it is Catholics who are explaining things away. How non-Catholics can even get out with that is a mystery to me, I humbly say.
I sincerely hope Erick points this out during the interview and that Austin can investigate whatever he feels needs investigation, with honesty and as a real truth-seeker.
God bless you and yours!
The Roman Papacy Supremacy is based upon numerous forgeries.
Maybe the Holy Spirit should be tasked with conversion and not Erick. That's a lot to put on a mere man. Even if that man is Erick Ybarra.
@@halleylujah247 🎯
@@halleylujah247 Holy Spirit works through people.
Makes sense!❤
Although I don't agree with Ybarra I do love his approach and charity.
Love the interviews!^_^❤
Austin, I rejet ecumenical events like the ones Pope John Paul II held. in Assisi, Italy in 1986 and 2002 because they suggested that God believes we're morally free to practice any religion we prefer. That's the heresy Blessed Pope Pius IX calls "religious indifferentism" when he condemns it in his Syllabus of Errors.
But you understand what other people believe and prepare thoroughly before you interview someone who disagrees with you on many subjects. So I admire you for your objectivity. Excellent, excellent work.
It’s much easier to be skeptical of Catholicism and keep endlessly objecting than it is to reasonable demonstrate that Protestantism is either apostolic or true.
I appreciate Erick's work.
I’ve enjoyed it personally
Thank you! Breath of *fresh air* relative to the limbic crack on tribal youtube
Eric is like the younger Brother of Jimmy.
Austin, how amazing would it be for you to moderate a discussion (not debate) on this subject matter between Erik and Gavin Ortlund. Just saying 😁. Blessings 🙏
Oh that sounds great! Discussion not debate
That would be a conversation I'd need to hear.
My immediate thought is “oh no! Not the papacy again?”
That's why you need this video.
Hi Austin, I have just recommended your channel to a friend, former protestant, now converted catholic, who is still struggling from time to time with the question of denominations. She can't stand the typical (though great) american catholic apologets. I thought with your humility and openness in discussion she should be able to connect easily.
Thanks for the recommendation! I hope she enjoys the channel
youtube.com/@ErickYbarra2010 Go to Erick's channel for more great content. 😊
Yes thanks for sharing his channel 👍
I am a Roman Catholic and my very limited understanding is that infallibity means issues of doctrine and faith are discussed and debated issues thread bare by a conclave of cardinals and bidhops with the Holy Father casting the final vote..
The Bishops together have a magisterium where they can issue an infallible statement and the Pope has his own magisterium which can do it in conjunction with the Bishops but also by himself.
This is what prevented Arianism for example and other heresies from destroying the church like you see with todays church’s and there seeking to modernize to the world.
Infallibility is to protect the faith,
@@brianfarley926 No, actually the First Council defended the Church against Arianism.
@@matthewgroh8797 yes I know you’re not making a point. I already said it was the Church’s authority that defeated Arianism. The Pope played a vital role in this as well along with other Bishops. And there is 2 different Magisterium’s not just one in a more qualified sense. You have the College of Bishops who together can make an infallible teaching as well as the Pope who can as well. Both can also issues authoritative teachings that aren’t infallible either and other levels of teaching authority
@@brianfarley926I’m reading a book on church history and it seems to paint a picture of the pope Liberius giving in to the emperor’s views of Arianism. It also seems to imply most of the bishops fell into this heresy. I am trying to gain a better understanding off church history but I’m starting to see the bias of this Protestant historian.
Could you point me in the direction of Catholic works at the time that better describe the Arian crises?
@@andrevaca6700 about 50% of the Bishops or perhaps more supported Arianism. Without the Magisterium Christianity wouldn’t have defeated this heresy
The papacy is one of the larger gorillas in the room. No matter how much we distance ourselves from it, the fact remains. Even many who reject it need it to anchor some of their doctrines. We might as well talk about it.
Erick Ybarra FOR THE WIN! The apologist who prays!!!
Honestly, though I remain Orthodox, it was a good discussion, thank you. IMHO accepting a Saint or a letter from that Saint in no way means we must accept every single word as dogma in our system. The position of The Pope in The Church was not the main point of that letter. Mr. Ybarra seems to put a lot of weight on this point, but i don't think it works.
Well, Agatho's letters was absorbed as the Council's own utterance. If you read closely the Acts, that becomes clear. Also, if it were a singular instance, you might have a point. Might. But it is a link in a long chain of claims and acceptances of the same doctrine.
@@Erick_Ybarra we accepted much of Augustine but not all. The same is true of many saints and fathers of the Church. From our perspective the pattern is actually one of honor and selective acceptance. We have no pattern of the dogmatic acceptance of entire works or entire utterances. Thus, we answer the challenge posed in the interview quite easily. We would have to share Roman Catholic assumptions for this gotcha to work... and we don't.
@@Erick_Ybarra Further, we accept the Canons that came out of the Ecumenical Council, of which this letter is not one AFAIK. Just to point out the distinction. Accepting a council as Ecumenical does not mean accepting everything that was said regardless of person or context.
My understanding is that early ecumenical councils were responding to and battling numerous heresies yes? Is there a point we can look to where this changed to how we understand today, as fostering acceptance
this guy sounds almost identically to Ron Perlman. it's a little wild.
Oh yeah it's 1.5x speed time 😎
Bro 🤣
I'm just glad you use an Aeropress, me too man
Excited for this! If possible, I would recommend inviting someone from Ubi Petrus to give reasons against the papacy.
Also, Perry Robinson from Energetic Procession would be a great guest. He was baptized Catholic as a kid, but raised protestant. He eventually left protestantism to convert to Eastern Orthodoxy.
Imo someone like Fr. Laurent Cleenewerck is much better than Ubi in terms or making solid arguments for Orthodoxy. Ubi really isn’t impressive idk why e-orthobros are obsessed
@@jebbush2527 Agreed. And Ubi calls people who don’t give him money cheap. Just look at his community posts re: Financial support, though quite a few comments are no longer there.
@@jebbush2527 I'll check that person out. I've been having a hard time finding EO apologists. They just don't seem as abundant on TH-cam as Catholic apologists. That being said, Ubi's videos have helped me a lot when it comes to understanding EO arguments against the papacy.
@@mattjackson450 are you orthodox?
@@jebbush2527 thanks!
The idea that Rome wins by milligrams might seem unsatisfactory to Catholics. But when Catholics and Orthodox are in agreement on nearly every point (with a few important exceptions), even in agreement on some points regarding the role of the bishop of Rome, then there are only milligrams worth of items in contention to start with.
Hard to understand how these letters from Honorius to Sergius were not revealed until decades after the death of Honorius, especially with their content being what it was? This whole issue is very fascinating to me as a Catholic listening to Erik, so if I could get a response to this question it would be great.
Wow, I was just watching one of your videos from 2 years ago and you said to comment on the video to help explain things to you and I was just thinking how much of a snake you were trying to use the algorithm without doing the work. But look at you now. Good for you, I shall subscribe because I sense you really are seeking God and I shall be a witness.
Of course you need the most nuanced convoluted papal apologetics to make sense of the difference between Vat 1 and 2.
You should really look into getting Baxter Kruger for a sit down with you. He's a brilliant theologian who studied under TF Torrance.
He's on my list!
Newman said to be deep in history is to cease to be Protestant.
It’s strange that he’s using Newman to down play history
Okay?
I am new to Christianity and I am currently in a reformed Baptist church. I have been doing a lot of research on our faiths history and have been learning a lot about orthodoxy and roman Catholicism. Right now the papacy and the post schism counsels are big points of contention for me, and i'm leaning heavily towards orthodoxy.
Considering the problems in the modern roman catholic church, how do traditional Roman Catholics reconcile these issues? All answers and opinions are appreciated, thanks.
Look at the problems in the church in Corinth where one of the members was committing incest with his mother.
Which flavor of orthodoxy is drawing you?
It’s not about being traditional Catholic it’s about being Catholic. No modifiers needed. The tradition lives.
Orthodoxy is "the truth " catholics broke away from the one true church with through supremacy of the pope and the filioque.
The Apostles that lived closest to Christ where Orthodox. We follow Christ's teachings through them and the Holy Father's.
Your soul will be at peace being Orthodox
People do not realize that the papacy and the church had a vital role in the creation and development of the university, hospital, art, science and the justice system of the western civilization.
The papacy led the struggle and survival of Christianity against the barbarians (Vikings, Visigoths, etc.) and Islam.
The granting of a master's degree is a sign of qualification of his/her own profession. University degrees were approved by the pope, the king, or monarch. - the papacy played a central role in establishing universities. The granting of a charter to a university was one indication of this papal role.
The Pope has authority in all Christendom and degrees approved by the pope are respected in all Christendom, while the kings approval was only valid in the kingdom in which they were issued.
Likewise in Art and science were supported by the popes.
Cathedrals were designed in the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries to function as world-class solar observatories.
Even atheist Stephen Hawking was a lifetime member of the Pontifical Academy of Sciences (academy of sciences of the Vatican city).
The Jesuits have been the single most important contributor to experimental physics in the seventeenth century.
Christian Art created by the greatest artist/composers in the world like Michelangelo, Raphael, Botticelli, Leonardo da Vinci, Beethoven, Bach, Schumann, Vivaldi, Williams, etc. were all commissioned by the popes.
What would western civilization be without the arts/music, science, universities and hospitals that were pioneered by the early church, led by the popes.
John 21:15-17
New International Version
Jesus Reinstates Peter
15 When they had finished eating, Jesus said to Simon Peter, “Simon son of John, do you love me more than these?”
“Yes, Lord,” he said, “you know that I love you.”
Jesus said, “Feed my lambs.”
16 Again Jesus said, “Simon son of John, do you love me?”
He answered, “Yes, Lord, you know that I love you.”
Jesus said, “Take care of my sheep.”
17 The third time he said to him, “Simon son of John, do you love me?”
Peter was hurt because Jesus asked him the third time, “Do you love me?” He said, “Lord, you know all things; you know that I love you.”
Jesus said, “Feed my sheep.
If I may disagree, I think a good argument against papal infallibility is that it makes all the eccumenical councils including the council in Acts essentially just theater when all Peter and his successors needed to do was speak ex-cathedra.
That’s a description of the tyrant single-player pope that also happens to be an oracle, not of the Successor of Peter (according to the Catholic Church). But that’s exactly how “Ubi Petrus” misleads former Protestants (mostly exploring their anti-Catholic biases, probably some serious lack of theological/ historical knowledge and also some emotional inclinations). Tragically, people still fall for that kind of reasoning, which became so handful and mainstream to EO online apologetics. The argument can be expounded as this: 1) history registers that Ecumenical Councils are a fact, 2) the “Rambo Pope” with an oracle machine gun, on the contrary, doesn’t exist; 3) therefore, it follows that the “Catholic papacy” is false.
One can easily perceive that the fallacy relies on making a caricature of the pope as a solipsistic autocrat, the “Rambo pope”.
@@masterchief8179 I don't like this accusation of anti-catholic bias, especially when I see plenty of bias on the Catholic side. Y'all are hypocrites at best, and lying hypocrites otherwise.
That's one of the things that stops me from believing in that stuff. If you have the power to speak infallibly, why do it so rarely?
@@EmberBright2077 Everyone has bias but that’s not what I’m talking about. When you look at popular manifestations of Protestantism, mostly American Evangelicalism, then you know what I’m talking about. Many people - not all, but many - can be educated by families and even by pastors to hate (a caricature of) the Catholic Church that becomes intrinsic to their “ethos”, and the fear is so tremendous that so many will give a fair chance to whomever first and just then consider listening to the Catholic Church in equity and fairness, if ever. But if you don’t want to understand the point, well, I’m not here to convince you. I just insist: the argument _“if the pope (…), then why (…) Ecumenical Councils?”_ is so bad. Actually, it’s terrible. Still we are good, my friend.
@@EmberBright2077Because it’s a lie.
I'm sure the council fathers who affirmed the papal claims were happy to do so as long as the Pope supported their position, and thus their language could be hyperbolic. But when he opposed their position, then they challenged the extent of his authority. Naturally this is the case. However, if all of us (Catholic and Orthodox) hold the judgments of the councils to be divinely inspired, we cannot dismiss the agreement of the bishops with the papal claims. If he really has the authority that is claimed, and which is supported by the councils, and later bishops claimed otherwise, then by definition those bishops went against the deposit of faith as articulated and affirmed by universal apostolic authority.
You don’t mention the rest of the Patriarchs! Rome wasn’t flying solo!
The East had their own Patriarchs in Alexandria, Jerusalem, Antioch, Constantinople besides Western Rome. And, Rome spoke Latin, not Greek like the East.
It’s not a stretch to see that the people were doing the correct thing in following their own Patriarchs in their jurisdiction.
Interesting timing
"Rome must not require more from the East with respect to the doctrine of the primacy than had been formulated and was lived in the first millennium." Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, 1982 (Later Pope Benedict XVI).
Also, the famous question by JPII, “What can the pope do to serve!” (slight paraphrase as I can’t remember the exact wording) I’m finding the definitions of papal supremacy given these days by Trads to be acceptable as an EO. I’m also of the kind that the pope is what he is regardless of confession: recent popes have served the wider church more than make demands. Their pastoral office is an IS, a given. If popes continue to serve the RCC, the wider church/Christianity, & the world, they will, in part, be fulfilling their office. As to overcoming schism, that takes repentance & the Spirit. It cannot be programmed.
I guess you guys would definitely appreciate reading the document “The Primacy of the Successor of Peter in the Mystery of the Church”. It was written by Cardinal Ratzinger as the Prefect of the Congregation of the Doctrine of the Faith in 1998, and it shows a great deal of his ecclesiology concerning the primacy of Peter. He explicitly says _“only the Pope (or the Pope with an Ecumenical Council) has, as the Successor of Peter, the authority and the competence to say the last word on the ways to exercise his pastoral ministry in the universal Church”._ That’s not like relativizing Catholic truths pronounced by the definitive magisterium. They are truths, not opinions. So we must find ways to better articulate the Catholic Petrine primacy in charity, humility and service, not concede it out. That’s his core (and even humble) argument.
Still it’s actually not the “Trads” nor the “Libs” (whatever those mean and whomever they are) that have a good say through each one’s agenda in ecclesiastical affairs. Prior to pope Francis it was the “Libs” the ones questioning the authority of the pope in a way that Orthodox would find “appealing”; now it’s the “Trads”. But we Catholics believe in the authority of the Church - not in taylormarshalism - because under that design she is guided “par excellence” by the Holy Spirit into all truths. And being in communion with Peter, exactly what many refuse with obstinacy (in some cases at the cost of jeopardizing their souls), is the way to truly grant it. By the way, during the Ecumenical Council of Vatican I (1870), one of the so-called “RadTrad” faction defended Ultramontanism, a kind of papal absolutism in line with what king Louis XIV of France would say of his model of governance (“the king [pope] can do no wrong”, more or less). The other “RadTrad” faction was on the exact opposite spectrum (much alike the Byzantine schismatic mentality around the Photian Schism and then the Great Schism, whose unconfessed premise was the “imperialization” of the Church), what can be called Gallicanism: they were the ones sustaining that the papal authority was honorific in essence over the notion of the Roman Empire being the model of the Church in her reality, therefore the Petrine decisions lacked “immediacy” (‘imediatum’ in Latin means “without mediation”) except in his diocesan Rome, and should be submitted to the ‘referendum’ of National Synods (like in France, Spain, etc), almost certainly controlled - or at least supervised - by each National State, so as to attain enforceability inside each territory. Both models are anti-Catholic by definition. It was the ‘moderates’ the ones backed up by the Holy Spirit, the Third Person of the Most Holy Trinity who never fails to guide the Church into all Truth.
Cardinal Ratzinger, later Pope Benedict XVI, explicitly stated that communion with Rome is NOT an accidental feature of the Church. It is constitutive of its fullest and also its universal (=Catholic, in this sense) expression. He was always very amicable to the Eastern churches in schism and even says the pope being the “Servant of the Servants of God”, a gift of divine mercy to the Church, is the way to work for unity, at the same time he says “full and real communion with the Roman Pontiff”, in his own words, is an ESSENTIAL ecclesiological attribute desired by Christ. So, for him, the only way to unity as desired by God is by reaffirming this Catholic truth and not relativizing it, so as to accomplish Christ’s will. Still he thinks there must be some optimum way to do it and only the Holy Spirit can show us how to. Therefore, it is always surprising to me to see Pope Benedict XVI’s words meaning what they - definitely - don’t mean.
Let us just read part of the document by Cardinal Ratzinger (1998) in the CDF:
_”14. In recalling these essential points of Catholic doctrine on the primacy of Peter's Successor, the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith is certain that the authoritative reaffirmation of these doctrinal achievements offers greater clarity on the way to be followed. This reminder is also useful for avoiding the continual possibility of relapsing into biased and one-sided positions already rejected by the Church in the past (Febronianism, Gallicanism, ultramontanism, conciliarism, etc.). Above all, by seeing the ministry of the Servant of the servants of God as a great gift of divine mercy to the Church, we will all find with the grace of the Holy Spirit - the energy to live and faithfully maintain full and real union with the Roman Pontiff in the everyday life of the Church, in the way desired by Christ._
_15. The full communion which the Lord desires among those who profess themselves his disciples calls for the common recognition of a universal ecclesial ministry "in which all the Bishops recognize that they are united in Christ and all the faithful find confirmation for their faith". The Catholic Church professes that this ministry is the primatial ministry of the Roman Pontiff, Successor of Peter, and maintains humbly and firmly "that the communion of the particular Churches with the Church of Rome, and of their Bishops with the Bishop of Rome, is -- in God's plan -- an essential requisite of full and visible communion". Human errors and even serious failings can be found in the history of the papacy: Peter himself acknowledged he was a sinner. Peter, a weak man, was chosen as the rock precisely so that everyone could see that victory belongs to Christ alone and is not the result of human efforts. Down the ages the Lord has wished to put his treasure in fragile vessels: human frailty has thus become a sign of the truth of God's promises._
_When and how will the much-desired goal of the unity of all Christians be reached? "How to obtain it? Through hope in the Spirit, who can banish from us the painful memories of our separation. The Spirit is able to grant us clear-sightedness, strength, and courage to take whatever steps are necessary, that our commitment may be ever more authentic". We are all invited to trust in the Holy Spirit, to trust in Christ, by trusting in Peter._
God bless!
If you zoom into the mg on the scale...you can actually see that it spells out "confirmation bias"😂
Great interview. @55:00 “What Catholicism is asking the Orthodox Church today, in a much more mild way” this is a tell. Let’s look at the Fruit from the fountain of papacy and Filioque
It was said near the beginning of the video that the papacy was a source division. But could it not also be said that it serves as a source of unity? I'll have to think about this.
It is a source of unity in original Christianity, that meaning Catholics, the ones that rejected papacy went out of that unity.
this is the role of the Holy Spirit to unite usin Christ, we dont give the office of unity to a singular bishop
@@jalildragneel2674 Only if you believe that. Both Orthodox and Protestants disagree with you.
@@EmberBright2077 John 21:15-17
15 When they had finished eating, Jesus said to Simon Peter, “Simon son of John, do you love me more than these?”
“Yes, Lord,” he said, “you know that I love you.”
Jesus said, “Feed my lambs.”
16 Again Jesus said, “Simon son of John, do you love me?”
He answered, “Yes, Lord, you know that I love you.”
Jesus said, “Take care of my sheep.”
17 The third time he said to him, “Simon son of John, do you love me?”
Peter was hurt because Jesus asked him the third time, “Do you love me?” He said, “Lord, you know all things; you know that I love you.”
Jesus said, “Feed my sheep.
Well yes you could argue that orthodox and protestants disagree with me, but I'm the only one, as a Catholic not stating a useless opinion, I'm stating the facts, whether you reject the order Jesus gave to this one single Bishop, is your problem... Now we have a problem, people calling themselves christians while rejecting undeniable truth spoken by our Lord Jesus Christ "take care of my sheep" spoken to Peter before the others, three times for foolish people that won't believe what he says a single time, yet you still whine and reject his words.
@@josephmary969 now convince me with facts.
A nice, polite conversation.
After reading and researching, Erick still finds the Catholic claims to only tip the scales a few milligrams. One would think that if these claims were so clear in history, it would not really be all that close.
Erick seems to think that people are becoming Orthodox because it's the "cool" thing or because it "looks better" or because of the "mystique". That has not been my experience. I have yet to hear anyone describe their conversion to Orthodoxy (sometimes from Catholicism) and describe their journey in these terms.
If you are someone who is discerning the question of Roman Catholicism or Orthodoxy, please keep looking.
Keep doing research and especially, visit an Orthodox Church.
The clarity of Catholicism comes from history. What makes things difficult is in the magisterial coherence of the last 1,000 years.
For orthodoxy to be surprised by the existence of the papacy they must have thought there were two churches or more from the beginning. If not they must be subject to the universal leader of the church and his successors.
@@koppite9600 You misunderstood my comment. What I was surprised by was the idea that if the universality of the papacy was such a clear teaching, one would think that it would be so clear as to not even be something to weigh.
Rather, it was clear that it was conciliar for the first millenium and then the Roman view developed over time.
@@Erick_Ybarra That's an interesting clarification. As an Orthodoxy Christian, I'm much more interested in the first millenium.
@@WillardPreacherPodcast what makes it clear that papacy was conciliar?
Eleven minutes in and the hook is set. Isn’t it fitting that the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus are the most historically compelling proof for God, Christianity and even the Hebrew religion. Really grabs you by the lapels.
Matthew 7:16-20 KJV
Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
Yes, friend. It is not enough to say you believe, but you must incarnate that faith in good works, which are the real sign of a genuine faith. Whoever does not have these signs - charity, joy, kindness, patience - is not following Christ.
@@rhwinner the corrupt tree I'm referring to is the papacy.
@@BaikalTii Hi, friend. We all must stand before the judgement seat of God and be held accountable for our actions and every word that we say. Popes included. Yet we should not fear, if we have Jesus as our Advocate both here on earth and in the afterlife. We are joyful and at peace. We love you also, no matter what set of beliefs you hold! ❤️🙏♥️
@@BaikalTiiThe true corruption is those with no teaching authority, no hierarchy, who simply decide to interpret the Bible themselves. They become their own Church. Jesus Himself prayed for unity, and the only Christian unity is the Catholic Church.
@@limoncellosmith7594 you think I'm a protestant. lol
Eric looking like hes losing weight, good for him
Galatians 2:11 But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed.
I’ll begin listening to this with trepidation. Erick is a dubious source except to his fans and co-ecclesiasts. There’s no doubt that’s he’s a soft-spoken & earnest layman. But the constant critique is his refusal to answer substantial critiques & use of long-debunked arguments. I’ll listen because I respect Austin & the process. Tangentially, as an EO, I’m thinking trad Catholics may be beginning to define a papacy long promoted, at least in theory, by the EO. I find myself frequently nodding in agreement to some of Francis’ critics.
Hi Tracey,
What objections do you think I've not addressed?
I suspect that what you mean regarding the long-debunked arguments are the ones perhaps made by the millennial converts from Protestantism to Eastern Orthodoxy as dogmatically defined by the ortho bros.
@@palermotrapani9067 ooo good one, got me
Excellent interview.
There are several basic problems in contemporary apologetics. One is that apologists often ask the wrong questions. For example, consider the question, "Can you prove [Roman] Catholicism?"
What does this even mean? Ybarra clarifies: "... prove that Catholicism is the only form of Christianity." Once the question or statement gets reframed to reflect its actual, intended meaning, its absurdity is immediately evident. Only a fool would assert that Roman Catholicism is the only form of Christianity. Y clarifies further: "the only CORRECT form of Christianity." Again, only a fool would believe such a thing. There are countless evidences demonstrating flaws in Roman Catholicism and among its members.
Now, Roman Catholicism is clearly more true in some respects than some other religions. With respect to historical beliefs and practices, Roman Catholicism can trace its existence to Christ via the apostles and their successors (as can many churches)--the belief in the Real Presence in the Eucharist, for example. Countless Protestant-Evangelicals become entranced by Rome on this account, and rightly so. However, it doesn't follow from this that Roman Catholicism is the "one true Church" or any similar nonsense. The problem is much more complex than this.
Likewise, many apologists appear to believe that if they can rip apart some other faith or set of beliefs, then that makes his position, church, whatever, right. Again, only a fool would really believe this.
In any event, the viewer might note how Ybarra immediately (and constantly) lowers the bar of expectations: He says, basically, that we aren't going to find evidence or a sound argument that actually proves Papal Supremacy. He couches it in a way so as to make it sound like those who don't believe are just skeptics--as if the failing is on other parts.
He eventually provides these three points that he says are essential. The problem, of course, is that they are all not only undemonstrated, but are demonstrably false.
1) "Christ singles out Peter as a leader among the apostles."
No. We have no evidence of this. Yes, Peter is prominent among the NT gospel accounts, but we have no evidence of what the Roman apologist wants us to infer--Jesus saying to Peter or the others that Peter rules them, that they must obey Peter, that he is infallible, or anything even close to this. "What about Matthew 16?" The promises and authority mentioned of Peter in Matthew 16 are mentioned of all of the apostles in Matthew 18 and elsewhere. We have no evidence whatsoever that the honor shown to Peter by Christ in Matthew 16 was an impartation of ruling authority over the other apostles.
2) "That office survives Peter."
Again, we have no evidence of this from Christ or that this was the general position in the early Church. As above, we have no evidence of this power/office being granted in the first place. Indeed, the Roman Catholic Church grudgingly admits today that Papal Supremacy was NEVER accepted by the rest of the Church (see the Chieti document). Further, what the Roman apologist does here is he smuggles Papal Supremacy in under Papal Primacy--an ubiquitous and dishonest act. The Church DID hold Peter and the Church of Rome with a special regard. That is historically undeniable. What the dishonest Roman Apologist does is he conflates this (and the Papacy in general) with Papal Supremacy. He arranges the plate such that acknowledging Papal Primacy entails acknowledging Papal Supremacy. It is a clever trick, but still just a trick.
3) "That office must last until the end of time."
Again, no evidence of this. Even if any of the above were true--and they are not--there are countless examples of God establishing something or someone and it only lasting for a time.
"I might not be able to prove it logically, but it might be more probable that [Papal Supremacy] is true than that it is false."
This is the argument that Suan Sonna has been pushing for awhile now, and it is garbage. The claim that Papal Supremacy "might be more probable" is useless. Unicorns are possible. That doesn't mean that we believe in them, use them as excuses to rule others, or tell others that they are going to hell if they don't embrace Unicorn-Supremacy.
"Rome is supremely reliable."
This is a common tactic of the Papal apologist: He points to a claim by this or that historical figure who proclaims the fidelity of Rome, and then just acts as if this claim is universally, eternally true. Conveniently, he ignores any and all claims to contrary, as seems to think that the fact that X wrote or said something is evidence that X is eternally true.
Ybarra's entire project is based on a series of principles for which we just don't have any evidence in Scripture or the early Church. He argues that the purpose of Papal Supremacy is to unify the Church, and this is another argument that the Roman apologists make. However, as history clearly shows, Papal Supremacy has not only failed spectacularly at this, it has actually been a CAUSE of massive division and schisms.
"Rome believes it had Supremacy, and Rome was regarded as being 'on the right side' throughout the first millennium." It is therefore unlikely that it is wrong about Papal Supremacy. Again, we are back to claims about possibilities... which are nonsense.
Y says that Papal Supremacy prevails... by milligrams (or millimeters). I wonder if he would say the same if he put as much effort into proving it false as he had in proving it true.
This would be a pretty decent defense of the papacy if it didn’t contradict Vatican I’s teaching. Vatican I teaches that the Vatican I concept of the papacy was always known universally in the church. Mr. Ybarra’s minimalist claim is much more reasonable, but ultimately it can’t be squared with Vatican I. You can’t have John Henry Newman’s evolution of doctrine when it comes to the papacy, because the papacy said you can’t.
What’s the Vatican I dogmatics that is supposedly a novelty? Just to avoid the “Rambo bishop” caricature, some concepts must be explained for those of good faith and good will. It’s pretty basic, but not so much for anti-Catholics (almost certainly former Protestants) that just recently converted to Eastern Orthodoxy, I guess. Let me try to help here:
*1) immediate jurisdiction:* it means that the primacy of Peter in the Apostolic collegiate didn’t signify the Apostles were recognized as a group and then the group subsequently decided - i.e., collegially - to recognize Peter’s leadership due to practicalities, but that the primacy was God-given, that means conferred directly by Christ, without mediation. It means the Bishop of Rome was not recognized historically as such to function as the leader of the universal church by the churches’ self-headed decision, but by Our Lord Jesus Christ Himself (“imediatum” in Latin means ‘without mediation’ or, in a more concrete sense, “direct by God”). That signifies that the Holy See, when issuing to exercise its leadership, has not received its due authority by the consensus of other churches, nor is subject to it in the strictest sense of the term, since its role is so by divine institution. Therefore, and just to exemplify, when the Bishop of Rome happens to act on the universal level (under the specifc circumstances justifiable), his decision is not subject to a synodical “referendum” to be applicable; Petrine authority derives from Christ himself (although, because of the sacramental nature of the Church - that means the Church “as a sacrament” - mediatory participation is preferable).
*2) universal jurisdiction:* it doesn’t mean, obviously, that Peter was recognized as a solipsistic leader in the apostolic collegiate; nor it meant - patently - the Successor of Peter is a bishop whose diocesan territory meant “the globe”. He is the Bishop of the diocese of Rome, where Peter’s succession was defined by death, but he is the ONLY one who could speak, as the unitive factor of the Church, on behalf of all the “oikumene”, just like Peter is the only of the Apostles who can speak by himself or - under specific circumstances - on behalf of all the Apostolic collegiate, as seen throughout both the biblical ecclesiological testimony in the Gospels and ecclesiastical history (despite denials of those in schism). To Peter alone Christ Jesus gave the keys of the kingdom ‘stricto sensu’ - and one can only say that “every apostle” received the keys ‘lato sensu’ or by means of participation in being in communion with Peter -, and we know that meant a king conferring power to his representative (= “vicarium”), just like in the Hebrew tradition one would understand how governance functions in a Davidic kingdom (Isaiah 22, 21-22), although the powers of binding and losing (the so called apostolic powers) were given further down to all of his brothers collectively. Therefore, this Petrine singularity and the subsequent collegiality predicate that Peter himself was commissioned with a specific OFFICE, so that this unique role in pastoring the flock of Christ (John 21, 15-17) signifies the Petrine commission to the feeding of the (universal) church. As St John Chrysostom says, _“And if any should say, “How then did James receive the chair at Jerusalem?” I would make this reply, that He appointed Peter teacher, not of this chair, but of the world”_ (Homily 88 on the Gospel of John). And there resides the reason of the blessing called “Urbe et Orbi” that the Popes give to us from Saint Peter Square in the Vatican City, the place of the martyrdom of Peter. This is a blessing to the city (= “urbe”) of Rome, as the Pope is “de iure” and in fact the Bishop of Rome; AND ALSO a blessing to the world or the universal Christianity (= “orbi”), as the Pope is “de iure” and in fact the single Sucessor of Peter and the true and one Pastor of the universal Church.
*3) supremacy:* it means a specific kind of episcopal primacy that is defined through a categorial difference, not really a difference of quantity of power, residing on the very kind of role exercised by the Successor of Peter that makes it different from the rankings of bishops at the organizational level of an archdiocese (archbishop), a metropolitanate (metropolitan) and a patriarchate (patriarch). Therefore, the primacies recognized by ecclesiastical matters (like archepiscopal, metropolitan or patriarchal) inside ecclesiastical canonical regulations are not applicable ‘mutatis mutandis’ to the primacy of the Successor of Peter, since the distinction is not on “quantity” of “episcopal primacy” under a territory but it is rather categorial, manifested in the power of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. EO usually conflates ecclesiology with ecclesiastical canon law, which should be an error from a Catholic point of view (entirely related to the inflation of power of the Byzantine Empire and the ecclesiastical capture of the power - quasi-episcopal, by the way - by the Emperor through the Imperial See of Constantinople). Still the word “supremacy” (‘supremum’) used by the Fathers of the Vatican Council in Latin does not predicate, as obvious, a tyrant universal leader; it’s referential to a leadership whose primatial role has no further point above, if checked among other kinds of ecclesiastical primacies. “Suprema” in Latin or “ανώτατος” (‘anótatos’) in Greek is a word seen during important occasions in the church of the first millennium to describe the position of Rome, even by the Byzantines (and it had zero relation to Byzantine flattery). So the word “suprema” means, strictly speaking, the superior point of nothing coming above, not autocracy, tyranny or whatever caricature can be made of it. In the USA there is the “Supreme Court” as the highest judicial authority and the guardian of the Constitution, but no one should think of the word “supreme” in any caricatural meaning to argue it should change the name to “Primate Court that is First Among Equals” (sorry about the quip). For example, the “gramatical susceptibilities” of anti-Catholics who may have converted to Eastern Orthodoxy and get furious over the mere word “supreme” (rectius: on what they think it means) can be strangely selective: the Greek Orthodox Patriarch of Alexandria (not the Coptic Patriarch) does not resonate with the very argument: the burlesque title _”His Most Divine Beatitude the Pope and Patriarch of the Great City of Alexandria, Libya, Pentapolis, Ethiopia, all the land of Egypt, and all Africa, Father of Fathers, Shepherd of Shepherds, Prelate of Prelates, thirteenth of the Apostles and Judge of the Œcumene"_ is ridiculously more pompous and pretentious then any of the official titles of the Bishop of Rome.
I only post this to help people who are honestly discerning these things so that they are not wronged by Catholic (repetitive) misrepresentation. As far as “the papacy” telling no one should accept a theory of development to explain the papacy (the ecclesiology and the canon law behind it), well, it’s just too nonsensical to deserve a rational reply (in all due respect) that I could offer here.
God bless you and yours!
Vatican I reaffirms what was stated at Ephesus: “Philip the presbyter and legate of the Apostolic See said: There is no doubt, and in fact it has been known in all ages, that the holy and most blessed Peter, prince (e!carkoj) and head of the Apostles, pillar of the faith, and foundation (qeme/lioj) of the Catholic Church, received the keys of the kingdom from our Lord Jesus Christ, the Saviour and Redeemer of the human race, and that to him was given the power of loosing and binding sins: who down even to to-day and forever both lives and judges in his successors.”
@@Vereglez-d4z Thanks, sister. Not only Ephesus (431): Chalcedon (451), Third Constantinople (680-681) and Second Nicaea (787) should make the same case, with some impressive manifestations. One of the greatest, nevertheless, is to compare the words of “Pastor Aeternus” (Vatican I) and one of the very Letters of St Agatho to the 6th Ecumenical Council (3rd Council of Constantinople, 680-681):
__________
First Vatican Council, ‘Pastor Aeternus’, Chapter 4 (1870):
_”(…) Indeed, _*_their apostolic teaching was embraced by all the VENERABLE FATHERS_*_ and _*_reverenced and followed by all the HOLY ORTHODOX DOCTORS,_*_ for they knew very well that this See of St. Peter always _*_REMAINS UNBLEMISHED by any error, in accordance with the divine promise_*_ of our Lord and Savior to the prince of his disciples: ‘I have prayed for you that your faith may not fail; and when you have turned again, strengthen your brethren‘ [Lk 22, 32]”_
__________
The Letter of Pope Saint Agatho to the Emperor (actas of the 6th EC, received with acclamation) (680-681):
_“(…) because the true confession thereof for which _*_PETER_*_ was pronounced blessed by the Lord of all things, was revealed by the Father of heaven, for he received from the Redeemer of all himself, by three commendations, the duty of feeding the spiritual sheep of the Church; under whose protecting shield, _*_THIS Apostolic Church of his has NEVER TURNED AWAY from the path of truth in any direction of error,_*_ whose authority, as that of the _*_Prince of all the Apostles,_*_ the whole Catholic Church, and the Ecumenical Synods have faithfully embraced, and followed in all things; _*_and all the VENERABLE FATHERS have embraced its Apostolic doctrine,_*_ through which they as the most approved luminaries of the Church of Christ have shone; _*_and the HOLY ORTHODOX DOCTORS have venerated and followed it,_*_ while the heretics have pursued it with false criminations and with derogatory hatred. This is the living tradition of the Apostles of Christ, which his Church holds everywhere…. the firm rock of this Church of blessed Peter, the Prince of the Apostles, _*_which by his grace and GUARDIANSHIP REMAINS FREE FROM all error”_* .
Vatican I uses the exact same language, almost word for word, in a clear parallelism (“Venerable Fathers” embracing; “Holy Orthodox Doctors” venerating/ reverencing and following). Honestly, it’s rather impressive that people even try to put those away.
God bless!
10:45 til about 11:50 (so basically, you got to believe in development of doctrine to believe in the papacy because you wont see it explicitly in history ... because there is not clear manefestation or obvious facet....erm , not great start 😅😂)
So by that logic you would have to abandon all protestant churches & teachings because the solas were developmental and not found anywhere in scripture nor history. You would also have to abandon the EO church as well regarding their doctrinal developments when they allowed for various methods of contraception. Your illogic will eventually cause you to undermine the very foundation of the faith.
.
Doctrine that was developed after further being studied, clarified, and expanded in understanding of, support of and accordance with the early fathers does not render it invalid simply by virtue of it being "developed".
@@chad_hominem @Chadasana Moves I agree with the protestants being invalid , ofcourse they are!
As for the Eastern orthodox church having doctrines developed I'm sorry you are wrong or ignorant. we clearly believe this is heretical. Paul said you have known my doctrine. Acts says they continued in the apostles doctrine.
The problem with Roman Catholicism is the so called development is an evolution or change of kind from one idea into a fully fledged doctrine which as the clip says cannot be see clearly manifested.
If you're like to say orthodox do the same then this is error. Explaining doctrine's isn't the same as snow balling primacy into supremacy. Being first isn't the same as being ruler.
As for contraception Roman Catholics believe it's okay to prevent pregnancy by abstaining from intercourse during the fertile week, but will still have sex for the pleasure the other weeks of the month avoiding pregnancy. Now most would claim you can't use a condom to prevent pregnancy because you are abstaining from the possibility and only having the sexual act for pleasure. Don't you see the hypocrisy? And sure the condom can break allowing for a possibility.
This being said the Roman Catholic church stance varies on the subject from priest and bishop. Their is no consistency. At least within Orthodoxy we have no clear dogma on a condom, though we have clear teaching on sex and the reasons for sex which give us our teaching on the subject.
You now might claim but the priests and bishops teaching the use of xondoms as okay are wrong because the catechism says x,y and z.... Actually the teaching of the church is that the catechism doesn't contain only and all dogmas, and is able to be changed which is has been, numerous times.
Speaking as a convert from protestantism into Roman Catholic (vetus ordo) and now western orthodox.
@@josephmary969 you might get a kick out of this 1 1/2 minute clip. It even brings up Honorius, who Erick brought up in this discussion:
th-cam.com/video/Jgq1_oUQ388/w-d-xo.html
@@BornAgainRN haha there was a smirk or two from the clip haha
@@chad_hominem Protestants don't claim infallibility, so developmental understanding isn't a problem for us.
I think Erick Ybarra is overstating the case of the Papacy at the Sixth Ecumenical Council. Erick states that the bishops of Constantinople 681 subscribe to the letter of Agatho and have no objections to what is read out in it. I do not think this is correct. Pope Agatho in his letter makes it clear that all of the preceding Popes of Rome were Orthodox bishops. This is also the opinion of Roman Catholic scholar Hefele who writes that Pope Agatho's letter gives "the strong assurance, many times repeated, that all his predecessors had stood fast in the right doctrine, and had given exhortation to the Patriarchs of Constantinople in the correct sense" [Hefele, History of the Councils, Volume 5, tr. by William R. Clark (Edinburgh: 1896), p. 145]. Yet the bishops of Constantinople 681 clearly did not share in St. Agatho's opinion, and clearly considered that Agatho's predecessor Honorius was a heretic. I think therefore that the idea that the bishops of Constantinople 681 gave a blanket approval of Agatho's words and interpreted them literally, which Erick seems to be implying, to be a false interpretation.
Hi! Long time no see.
So I have struggled with how to interpret the situation. I have consulted others, including the colleague that is working with Fr. Richard Price in his forthcoming volume of the Acts of Cple 681, and he recognizes what is a conundrum. Agatho's letter is interlaced with emphatic claims to Papal infallibility. You have to read the whole text carefully. While it is true that Agatho understood that the application of divine protection to Peter's see involved the pristine orthodoxy of all his predecessors (something which is still defensible, I might add), the Greek hierarchy at the Council not only translated the Latin of Agatho's letter word for word, but kept the claims to infallibility in the official Acts. When it came time to giving their assessment of Agatho's letter, they praise all of its contents as a divinely written letter written by God in Peter through Agatho. In other words, they did not simply read the letter and exaim it as being in agreement with the Council, but they lauded its divine origin in Petrinological terms. In fact the Emperor flat said the Pope wrote an infallible (not least inerrant) document in light of the Petrine protection.
In light of Honorius's anathema, we can say that the Council both welcomes the belief in divine infallibility for the Roman See and that its occupants can err under certain conditions.
If you reject Papal infallibility altogether, you truly have a bigger problem because you are rejecting a conciliar text that the Spirit left in the Acts by the discretion and judgment of the Council.
@@Erick_Ybarra "While it is true that Agatho understood that the application of divine protection to Peter's see involved the pristine orthodoxy of all his predecessors (something which is still defensible, I might add), the Greek hierarchy at the Council not only translated the Latin of Agatho's letter word for word, but kept the claims to infallibility in the official Acts."
I cannot see how Honorius is at all to be seen as orthodox. The Sixth Ecumenical Council, The Seventh, The Council of Trullo, all see Honorius as a heretic, and there can be no way a heretic is orthodox. Of course, many scholars today may see in Honorius as espousing a two-will Christology, but why should they be preferred to the hundreds of holy fathers who clearly saw him as un-orthodox?
"When it came time to giving their assessment of Agatho's letter, they praise all of its contents as a divinely written letter written by God in Peter through Agatho"
The problem then is that the council then contradicts itself. If God said that all of Agatho's predecessors were orthodox and the council condemns Honorius for not being orthodox then holy council goes against God, the council would instead proclaim Honorius as orthodox and would not condemn him in subsequent sessions.
"In other words, they did not simply read the letter and exaim it as being in agreement with the Council, but they lauded its divine origin in Petrinological terms."
The council did examine the letter of Agatho. It was read out at session two and agreement with it was not given by Patriarch Saint George of Constantinople until the eighth session two months later.
"In light of Honorius's anathema, we can say that the Council both welcomes the belief in divine infallibility for the Roman See and that its occupants can err under certain conditions."
Or that it didn't take the claims of Saint Agatho regarding Rome's infallibility literally. The very same council declared that the Gates of Hades would never triumph over the Byzantine Empire, yet no Roman Catholic has taken that declaration literally.
"If you reject Papal infallibility altogether, you truly have a bigger problem because you are rejecting a conciliar text that the Spirit left in the Acts by the discretion and judgment of the Council."
The issue with this is that it cuts both ways. The Councils, for example, venerate as saints and holy people those that the Roman Catholic Church would today condemn as schismatics. Theophilus of Alexandria was praised as a saint at both Ephesus 431 and Constantinople 553, even though he died outside of communion with the Pope of Rome and flagrantly disregarded his support of Chrysostom. Three Patriarchs of Constantinople were seen as Orthodox by the Council of 681, even though they died outside of Rome's communion. Even the Fifth Ecumenical Council broke off communion with the Pope.
@@stdostoyevsky2931
St. Maximos the Confessor, Pope John VI, Anastasius Bibliothecarius, and, well presumably, many others, all defended Honorius. He was venerated as a Saint by Maximos, and he died in the peace of the Church, buried in Rome with honor. The Council condemned Honorius off the quick-jerk sight of "one will in Christ Jesus", when it was clearly the case, as shown by Maximos, that this is not what Honorius was teaching. Keep in mind, neither Pope St. Martin or St. Maximos were in good graces during the Council of Constantinople 681. As far as the Greeks were concerned, especially the Monothelite intelligentsia (imperial and all), Maximos was an enemy of the state. If you read Honorius's letters carefully, it is quite plain that he taught a two will Christology. If you'd like to discuss that in a live setting, I would be willing to do that with you.
On the matter of the Council's judgment - Unfortunately, the Council shut away the wisdom of previous Church Fathers who decried the injustice of condemning people who had already passed away in the good graces of the Church. Both Rome and Constantinople bought into the legitimacy of posthumous anathema, ever since C'ple 553. That is not something that endured long, at least for the Catholic Church. Today, there is no canonical justice that would allow that. And rightly so, as it returns to the Patristic wisdom on the matter. And so I would say Councils can err in matters not related to dogmatic utterances. I am not a "Conciliar Fundamentalist" who believes everything Councils do must be right. Emperor Justinian ran the entire show of Constantinople (553), a clear case of Ceasaro-Papism. But it is also a case proving that the rule "what is done is what is right" or "what is acted out is always the definition of belief" is not, per se, true. Just because C'ple 553 was a Caasaro-Papist operation doesn't mean the Church's dogmatic tradition now embraces Caesaro-Papist. It was erroneous and it is happily drifting down the river of unhappy memory.
Moreover, if you were to espouse the "Conciliar Fundamentalist" position, then this entire event of Agatho's letter to the Council poses an even greater problem. Because if Papal infallibility were not just a doctrinal error (for goodness sakes, the Orthodox require a renunciation of the Agathon dictum by Catholic converts), but was also explicitly contradicted, as you say, by the Greek fathers at C'ple 681, then they deliberately left an error in the Council, thereby completely falsifying Conciliar Fundamentalism. One simply can't read Agatho's letter as if it were meant to be a non-literal, hyperbolic, or sensational claim. I don't think that option is on the table.
Well, there is a, prima facie, contradiction in the Council. The council in one place says all of Rome's predecessors were orthodox, and yet in another place says at 1 of them is a heretic. I think the problem with your position is that you are seeing Agatho's letter as an opinion from the Pope that they just so happen to have left in the Acts. That's not true. The Council praised Agatho's letter with no emendation, correction, or edition, and therefore made the full content of the letter *its very own utterance*. If you fix that mistake, you can at least make it to the platform where this debate is actually happening.
I never denied that the Council examined it. In fact, I asserted so! What I said is that they did not *simply* examined it. They read it out loud, examined it, and then concluded that it was of divine origin according to Petrinological terms, something which only echoes the Petrine claims of the document itself. George did come around to admitting so in the normal senatorial fashion when each had to give public utterance to Agatho's letter. That only reinforces my point.
I don't think this is tenable. It just doesn't make sense. On the other hand, about the Council's claims about the Byzantine Empire - I don't mind holding that to be literal either. Just read it carefully.
But it does not cut both ways for a Catholic because we believe that emendation and edition is possible with non-dogmatic elements to Ecumenical Councils.
@@Erick_Ybarra
"St. Maximos the Confessor, Pope John VI, Anastasius Bibliothecarius, and, well presumably, many others, all defended Honorius. He was venerated as a Saint by Maximos, and he died in the peace of the Church, buried in Rome with honor. The Council condemned Honorius off the quick-jerk sight of "one will in Christ Jesus", when it was clearly the case, as shown by Maximos, that this is not what Honorius was teaching."
I'm sorry, but the overwhelming voice of the saints is that Honorius was a heretic. The Holy Spirit guided the minds of the Council of 681 when it condemned Honorius as a heretic, why would the Holy Spirit leave this in the acts? It also didn't stop the Seventh EC from condemning him as a heretic either. It's much more easier to suggest that, of your witnesses, one saint (Maximus) was wrong than to suggest that hundreds of saints were wrong.
"Unfortunately, the Council shut away the wisdom of previous Church Fathers who decried the injustice of condemning people who had already passed away in the good graces of the Church."
The Fifth Ecumenical Council with its 165 fathers clearly though that it was acceptable. So I don't see how they were ignoring the fathers at all. An Ecumenical Council had decided that it was suitable.
"If you read Honorius's letters carefully, it is quite plain that he taught a two will Christology. If you'd like to discuss that in a live setting, I would be willing to do that with you."
I'm sorry Erick but the councils are explicit on this manner. Honorius was a heretic. God, who knows the hidden depths of knowledge stored in man's hearts, clearly revealed to the councils that Honorius was a heretic, who also examined the letter carefully. Even if you are able to read orthodoxy in Honorius (which you can probably do for every heretic to ever exist), it doesn't change the fact that he was a heretic.
"Just because C'ple 553 was a Caasaro-Papist operation doesn't mean the Church's dogmatic tradition now embraces Caesaro-Papist. It was erroneous and it is happily drifting down the river of unhappy memory."
I'm sorry but this seems to me to suggest a mentality of "rules for thee but not for me". Orthodox are to accept Papal Supremacy and Vatican I because of councils like Constantinople 681 but Roman Catholics don't have to accept a council that very much goes against its ecclesiology.
"That is not something that endured long, at least for the Catholic Church. Today, there is no canonical justice that would allow that. And rightly so, as it returns to the Patristic wisdom on the matter."
I'm not sure why this is the case when several ecumenical councils (5th and 6th) allowed it. Even the Popes of Rome used it. Did not Pope Formusus dig up his deceased predecessor and condemn him?
"Moreover, if you were to espouse the "Conciliar Fundamentalist" position, then this entire event of Agatho's letter to the Council poses an even greater problem. Because if Papal infallibility were not just a doctrinal error (for goodness sakes, the Orthodox require a renunciation of the Agathon dictum by Catholic converts), but was also explicitly contradicted, as you say, by the Greek fathers at C'ple 681, then they deliberately left an error in the Council, thereby completely falsifying Conciliar Fundamentalism. One simply can't read Agatho's letter as if it were meant to be a non-literal, hyperbolic, or sensational claim. I don't think that option is on the table."
The option is to me the most plausible option. Listen to what Saint Agatho says on the promise of Peter "Let your tranquil Clemency therefore consider, since it is the Lord and Saviour of all, whose faith it is, that promised that Peter’s faith should not fail and exhorted him to strengthen his brethren, how it is known to all that the Apostolic pontiffs, the predecessors of my littleness, have always confidently done this very thing." In other words, Agatho states that according to Christ the Popes of Rome will never fail to strengthen their brethren, yet the council says that Pope Honorius of Rome did this very thing that Agatho says was impossible to do! The only way I can see getting around this issue is by saying that they didn't take very word of the Pope literally. There seems to me no other alternative explanation that doesn't come across as contrived or anachronistic.
"Well, there is a, prima facie, contradiction in the Council. The council in one place says all of Rome's predecessors were orthodox, and yet in another place says at 1 of them is a heretic."
Except the council didn't say it, Pope Agatho's letter to the Council said it. You seem to think that every document that is accepted at an Ecumenical Council must have all of its content accepted and approved by the council. On the contrary, the fact that Agatho's letter defends Honorius but the Council fathers condemn him only serves to show that the Council Fathers did not accept as true every word or idea that was contained in the letter. Another example of this would be Sophronius of Jerusalem's letter to Patriarch Sergius, in which the former calls the latter many titles such as 'shepherd of shepherds' and clearly states that he is orthodox, but we now that the council, despite endorsing Sophornius' letter, clearly did not agree with the contents of said letter with regards to Sergius' character. Agatho's letter was not the council, it was a document accessed by the council fathers and judged correct with regards to its dyotheletism and incorrect with regards to the orthodoxy of the previous bishops of Rome. The council judged that the letter of Agatho was correct and God-inspired in its profession of monothelietism and in *that* sense became the voice of the council, not in its declaration that the Popes were always orthodox.
"I think the problem with your position is that you are seeing Agatho's letter as an opinion from the Pope that they just so happen to have left in the Acts. That's not true. The Council praised Agatho's letter with no emendation, correction, or edition, and therefore made the full content of the letter *its very own utterance*. If you fix that mistake, you can at least make it to the platform where this debate is actually happening."
Well in my view they did correct the letter. The letter as stated declares that all the popes prior to Agatho were orthodox, but the council corrects this by declaring in its definition, and its letters to the Pope and Emperor that Honorius was a heretic. They didn't need to edit what was presented to them as a "suggestions" (Schaff and Wace, NPNF, 2.14, p. 342).
Secondly, heretical writings are in the council's acts, such as Honorius' letter, yet they are not considered the utterance of the council, because the council in its acts and words condemns the contents of these heretical letters. Yet that does not mean that they disagreed with *everything* written in those letters. Honorius' letter contains many orthodox statements such as how Christ's flesh is not from heaven but from Mary, was that heretical? Of course not. In a similar fashion they read the letter of Agatho and considered it godly inspired, but that they did not consider every idea or concept in it to be Orthodox dogma, as shown by their correction of the letter's idea that Pope Honorius was orthodox.
"I don't think this is tenable. It just doesn't make sense. On the other hand, about the Council's claims about the Byzantine Empire - I don't mind holding that to be literal either. Just read it carefully."
It makes perfect sense to me and to many others. What you are attempting to do is harmonize what cannot be harmonized. You are trying to fit a square peg into a round hole. You want *all* of Agatho's letter to be the voice of the council as well as the declaration of the council that goes against the letter in condemning Pope Honorius, something disallowed by Agatho's letter. I on the other hand can simply say that the council, in its definition and letters, corrected what they found to be wrong in Agatho's letter.
"But it does not cut both ways for a Catholic because we believe that emendation and edition is possible with non-dogmatic elements to Ecumenical Councils."
Yet the same Spirit by your logic that ensures Papal Infallibility is in the acts is also the same spirit that allows a host of things incompatible with Catholic thinking to be in them in the first place. It doesn't sound correct at all.
The Fifth Ecumenical Council with its 165 fathers clearly though that it was acceptable. So I don't see how they were ignoring the fathers at all.
@@stdostoyevsky2931 BeforeI respond to this through typing, would you accept an offer to speak with me on this? I invite people to do so in the video with Austin. If not this, how about a phone conversation ? Anything but typing if possible.
(Re: Pope Francis) “People will say that in the comments anyway” 😂😂😂😂. Honestly I feel like we gotta trust the Holy Spirit, who works through us and sometimes *despite* us…that Wind who blows where It will….
Yeah, I think I'll just go with Orthodoxy. Catholicism just has so many non axiomatic hoops to jump through and loopholes. That, and it seems like every time the Pope says something the apologists are scrambling to cover his tracks.
I have to say that I understand and sympathize with your perspective. Catholics do this. However, is Orthodoxy without fault or any semblance of incoherence?
The Pope says what he says. He has never altered doctrine. Orthodox have no authority, Jesus gave the Keys of Authority and Governance to Peter only.
This is called being an apologist and it is not unique to Catholicism.
I considered Orthodoxy, but I can't identify the Orthodox Church. The autocephalous churches don't make claims to infallibility - i.e. a local patriarch can teach heresy. And the way to settle such disputes, an ecumenical council, has not occurred in close to 1000 years now because the Orthodox theologians disagree on what makes a council binding. In fact, Eastern Orthodox logic makes me think I could be Oriental Orthodox and the two are not in communion with each other. And Russia is using the same argument Greece used in 1054 to call Moscow the 3rd Rome, leading to a schism in current year.
TL;DR The grass is not greener on the Orthodox side.
@@Erick_Ybarra Thank you for the reply. As we know, nothing is perfect. I think the use of 'coherent' is a good word because i think it's the coherence of Orthodox theology that draws me moreso than any "faults" of Catholicism
From the start, I find Ybarra's criteria for what evidence we should be finding in the patristic era of the Church to be insufficient. The doctrine of the papacy is as follows: The Bishop of Rome, on account of his role as the successor of St. Peter, possesses the unique charism of supremacy (meaning he is the universal bishop of all Christians and has direct authority over every other diocese) and is infallible, as he cannot err when defining matters of faith and morals. In Catholicism, the pope has the authority to act with or without the approval of the universal synod of bishops. THAT is the standard. The Catholic apologist then has two options: he can try to defend this doctrine with evidence from Scripture and the Fathers, or he can admit that these beliefs about the prerogatives of the Bishop of Rome are later developments in church history (which is the Orthodox position).
So this begs the question: Do we find sufficient scriptural and patristic evidence that the Bishop of Rome acted in supremacy in authority and infallibility in his teaching? Not even close.
What form of Christianity today believes that the everlasting design of ecclesiology includes the singular headship of St. Peter and his perpetual successors in the Roman episcopate governing the Church as the principle of unity for the universal Church until the end of time? I'll be waiting for the options, my friend :D . I think it would be better to just say, "We don't need to be continuous with the early Church", which is the relaxation one gets from being within Protestantism.
@@Erick_Ybarra That would be the Roman Catholic Church, not the early Church.
The early Church held that each community of Christians under the authority of a local bishop IS the fullness of the Church (St. Ignatius of Antioch, Letter to the Smyrnaeans), that all bishops are heirs to the promise of Peter (St. Cyprian, Epistle 26; St. Jerome, Letter 14), no bishop is a universal bishop above all others (St. Gregory the Great, Epistle 20), and that each local church is in charge of its own affairs (7th Council of Carthage, 1st Council of Constantinople, Canon 2).
I could go on. While your answer is certainly poetic, I welcome you to actually rise up to the challenge and show papal supremacy and infallibility in action during the patristic era.
@@StoneRobbins Ok, but let's just start with your initial criticism. I gave an "irreducible minimum" of what needs to be shown in the Patristic documentation in order to form a good argument for organic development. I listed 3 or 4 things. You asserted that those 3 or 4 things don't point towards Catholicism. I don't even have to be a Catholic to accept this argument. It is, first and foremost, a working theory. Now, if it is the case that the Patristic witness contains those 3 or 4 things, then what Church other than the Catholic Church is in organic continuity with it?
Remember, your argument was that my criteria is faulty to the point I was making.
@@Erick_Ybarra I appreciate your clarification. My point on this end is that the criteria listed is (in my view) much too broad to narrow itself down to the papacy. Primus inter pares could also in theory fit that set of criteria.
In the absence of any clear expression of papal supremacy or belief in infallibility, one essentially is left with admitting that these beliefs are developments of the western church, not central to the faith handed to the Apostles.
Go back further. If you study the Jewish roots of the faith you understand the significant of the Keys to Temple and Governance. Jesus gave all the Apostles special gifts but He only gave Peter the Keys. I recommend reading jewish sage Rashi's writings on the significance of the Keys to ancient Israelite kingdoms and the people. CC has unbroken documented evidence for succession of Peter through to Pope Francis.
From conception the “Church” was an OFFICIAL sect within Judaism. When you read Acts 1 and if you are familiar with Halakhah Law you will immediately notice that the Church is a legal entity WITHIN Judaism. There are 3 requirements which are met.
Firstly, notice that there are 120 members in this synagogue. Why is this important? It is the exact number of persons in the Halakhah regulations to form a full fledged synagogue. Judaism and Catholicism were born on Shavuot/Pentecost. To this day the Catholic Conclave has a maximum limit of 120 electors to elect the Pope.
Secondly next according to Halakhah regulations there must be a "beit din" (Hebrew court) formed. We see that there is a beit-din and it draws lots and Matthias a disciple is chosen to take over Judas bishopric (episkopen). The first example of Apostolic Succession. So two of the three requirements are met.
The third requirement is that there must be a NASI (prince/temporal) and an AB (father/spiritual) appointed. Curiously Peter is filling both these positions in this beit din. Why?
In 190 BC the Kohan Gadol (jewish high-priest) fell into apostasy and bei-din gadol (Hebrew court) cast a vote of no confidence splitting the Kohan Gadol into two offices the "NASI" and the "AB" within the Beit Din Gadol.
Fast forward to Matt16, in this new Beit Din Gadol (70 disciples) Christ has placed His confidence in Peter (the first AB/father/pope meaning papa) by presenting him the Keys to the temple/governance bringing the two offices back into one high priesthood the way it originally was.
The pope has both temporal and spiritual powers. Peter is the NASI prince of the apostles and the AB/pope (Pope meaning papa - meaning father) as you see even today the pope as Peters documented unbroken apostolic successor is both ‘nasi’ and the ‘ab’ in Catholicism.
Rashi/Jewish sage writes a commentary on the priestly role of the steward/vizier of the Davidic Kingdoms. The Keys are the keys of the Temple and Authority. When the Davidic kings were away the steward/vizier was in charge and he wore the keys the King gave him so the citizens knew who he was. The steward is given the sash/robes/keys to the temple because the role is also a priestly role. The keys were then passed onto a successor when that steward died/removed. (Isaiah 22 v15-25)
The Apostles knew exactly what had occurred when Jesus gave Peter the keys. Jesus presents the keys to Peter (Pope/ab) and appoints him/his successors as His royal steward to care for HIs flock until His return.
First book of Kings lists all the Kings and the royal steward/vizier is always listed next to the King because in the absence of the King he was in charge of the Kingdom. Christ also renames Peter (the only Apostle renamed) as Abraham and Jacob were renamed by God in preparation for their specific role in salvation history.
Jesus, Son of David rebuilt the davidic kingdom as per 2SamCh7 - He is the King, His mother is Gebirah, Peter/successor Popes are His royal stewards/viziers and the Hebrew court/beit-din is the Magisterium.
Catholicism is not a new religion, it is the legitimate continuation of Temple Judaism (not Rabbinic Judaism). Catholics do not throw out what God has revealed prior and continues to hold that all that is revealed is a single continuous revelation culminating in the Catholic Faith.
Ancient Templ Judaism and Catholicism is the same faith in two covenants one old and another new.
Jesus created a Melchezidek priesthood (which pre-exists the Aaronic priesthood). This is why all Catholic priests belong to the order of Melchizedek, the fulfilment of the theophany of Melchizedek giving wine/bread to Father Abraham.
Has he converted...finally?? I dont see that. It seems hes still a protestant
The defense for the papacy "wins by millimeters"??? Millimeters, based on something that is divinely revealed from God??? That comment there lost me.
When all things are considered.
@@Erick_Ybarra Let me know how are you want to communicate, to set up our discussion on your TH-cam channel on the papacy.
''milimeters'' when going through the historical record (that's what I understood)
@@mjramirez6008 which isn't a whole lot.
Could only take about 25 minutes of this spinning. Just a bunch of circular reasoning and bs based on I think etc. So weak! Easy to see why people are moving in mass to the Orthodox Church.
🙄
The issue with Ybbaras argument is that there are concepts in the early church such as the Christian Emperor which are not operative today. There is an important difference between dogmas which are unchanging parts of the new covenant and the spiritual significance the church bestows on certain things ie athos is part of the orthodox faith but it has no dogma. Same when there was a tsar. Finally Rome preserving the apostolic tradition isn’t the result of magic powers. It’s because AT was not given equally. Some places were exposed more than others to the “deposit”. Peter and Paul’s presence gave Rome a physically larger body of tradition than almost anywhere especially in the west. That’s why people what there opinion
And should we not heed Rome’s position on its own prerogatives if it has received more tradition than the others? The consistent orthodoxy of Rome in the early church is actually a reason to think Rome was also orthodox in its view of its own authority…
Jerusalem had Thirteen Apostles (including Peter and Paul). Antioch and Corinth also had Peter and Paul.
@@lucaspacitti182 Rome had Paul to themselves for several years and marks gospel was dictated there. Also Rome was a communication hub. And people looked to other sees as well. But you can see how Paul’s presence in Rome gave the west a more Pauline character while Johns extended stay in Greece made the Greek church more Jonhanine
@@jebbush2527 Yes but Rome doesn’t seem to be aware of it’s prerogatives for quite some time ie the arguments Rome makes about deposing nesotorius are not based on universal supremacy. All the elevations of Rome point to other factors like it being the imperial city, having tradition, church canons. They don’t say there is a unique office located in Rome that could be moved elsewhere that has certain dogmatic properties. V1 goes the other way and explicitly rejects the idea that the popes authority is based or founded on anything accept the office.
@@esoterico7750 Rome had Paul for only some 5 years, most of which he was arrested. Jerusalem had the 12 Apostles for 7 years. It's not a question of "larger body of Tradition".
32:00. Here is an excellent example where belief in apostolic succession by the bishop of Rome was wrong. Because Irenaeus told Bishop Victor that Polycarp had reported to him that he had celebrated Easter with John and the other apostles on Nisan 14 (even if it did not fall on Sunday) and called it “ancient tradition.” But the claim by Victor of celebrating Easter on Sunday, which he claimed was based on “apostolic tradition“ was false, but rather based on recent tradition. So as late as the end of the second century, we don’t have a solid example of valid apostolic succession through the Bishop of Rome.
Pope Anicletus chose to maintain a diversity of practices on the day of celebrating Easter. However, the Church moved into a direction where she wanted to consolidate. That is very normal. The quarto-decimans, i.e., those who followed the strict tradition of Ephesus/Asia, such as St. Polycarp, were soon deemed schismatics, especially since they condemned those who did not celebrate on the 14th day of Nisan precisely, as well as imposing other Judaizing norms upon the Church.
St Anatolius, Paschal Canon, 8, circa 270:
"not acquiescing, so far as regards this matter, with the authority of some, namely the successors of Peter and Paul..."
On the Quartodeciman faction, suppressed at the Councils of Arles and Nicea.
@@Erick_Ybarra actually, it was "Pope" Victor who threatened to excommunicate the churches who held to Quartodecimanism:
“Victor, who presided at Rome tried to cut off from the common unity as heterodox all the Asian dioceses…announcing the absolute excommunication of all the brethren there. The bishops sharply reprimanded Victor. Among them was Irenaeus…not to excommunicate entire churches of God for following ancient traditions:
‘Some think that they ought to fast for one day, other for two or even more…. Such variation in observance did not begin in our own day but much earlier in the time of our predecessors…. Among these also were the presbyters before Soter who headed the church over which you now preside - I mean Anicetus, Pius, Telesphorus, & Xystus. They themselves did not observe it, nor their followers…. Anicletus could not persuade Polycarp not to observe it, since he had always done so with John, our Lord’s disciple, and the other heads of the apostles who he knew’” (Eusebius’ Church History, Book 5.25).
So, as you can see, Victor was wrong.
@@BornAgainRN
Who challenged that Pope St. Victor was the one who threatened to excommunicate the churches who held to the Quartodeciman position?
@@Erick_Ybarra according to Eusebius: Bishop Polycrates held to the Quartodeciman position. The bishops of Asia also held to this position & was threatened with excommunication by him, which was held previously by Polycarp. And Irenaeus wrote that Polycarp had "always done so with John, our Lord's disciple, and the other apostles he knew." Polycrates also wrote that "Philip, one of the twelve apostles" along with his two of his aged, virgin daughters, and a third daughter who rests in Ephesus, Melito of Sardis, and several other bishops "all these kept the 14th day of Nisan as the start of the paschal festival...but if I write their names, there will be many."
So, not only were those who held to the Quartodeciman position older, but also more numerous. So, again, "Pope" Victor was wrong.
Dude.. imagine having to defend Catholicism 😂.
Imagine denying it
And your reasons for your rejection are …
I expect no reply from this apparent troll
It's easier to defend catholicism than to defend fake Christiandom born yesterday.😂
The Truth is not always easy to defend, but in the end it always shines through. Catholicism goes the distance, as Erick convincingly demonstrates.
@@tbojai truth is hard to defend when you know nothing.
Pope Agatho's letter is actually also on newadventorg.
Yes, but an abridged version