They did indeed form the neck of the cartridge after they put the BP pellet in it, and they continued to do this with cordite as well. If memory serves the LE was designed from the ground up to be smokeless. The issue was coming up with a propellant they could make domestically. So they went whith BP. In order to get as much power out of it as possible, until they had smokeless figured out, they made the compressed pellets. The 303 Mark I actually had higher chamber pressures than all the other Marks of 303-including Mk VII. So no worries shooting MKVII or commercial ammo out of the older Lee Metfords, MLEs, and Martini Enfields-assuming they're in good condition that is.
The Lee-Enfield action is practically impossible to blow up - part due to their metallurgy with relatively soft, ductile but tough steel and the fact they’ll elastically deform before letting go and by then the barrel is often split. I’ve witnessed guys putting serious deliberate overloads in one and it wouldn’t quit.
@@ThreenaddiesRexMegistus You might find it difficult to blow to pieces, but that doesn't mean an overcharge won't wreck it. When the British Army went over to 7.62 NATO, they found that the SMLE was not safe to fire it continuously, but the No.4 would take it. The Indian Ishapores are made to locally available SMLE plans from higher-grade steel and can take 7.62 indefinitely without breaking.
You are forgiven for not fully translating British ordnance hieroglyphics. Had to do that once on a No 4 MkI-II. Made at Long Branch and re-arsenaled at Fazarkley to a MkII and restocked with a stock from a rifle taken out of service. Took a while to figure it all out.
I have a No4 Mk1, and I've never thought of reloading for it with black powder. Well, next time I do a batch of .303 I'm going to try this. Thanks, Jake.
This was one of your best and thank you for attempting to replicate "Compressed Black Powder" I think the Lee's rifling, originally Metford was designed for black powder. I always considered my Lee Enfields, 1 through 5 to be true EOTWAWKI guns, just wich there was more ammo around. Now we know we can use black powder if necessary.
Very interesting about the case being sized after the black powder pellet was in. That sounds like a super compressed loading. I've always wanted a full length .303 Enfield and have often thought of reloading rounds in black powder for it.
Please try with 3f and 4f to see any differences in velocity is.. My understanding is that when england went from muzzeloading to loaded shells some off the old timers would not switch as the loads were to mild , the die hards were using 4f in there 12 gauge guns and were not happy with the week shells that were loaded
The original .303 black powder rifle would have been the lee metford(metford rifled barrel). The reason for the change to enfield rifling was because of the change to cordite causing erosion to the metford rifling rather quickly. Erosion still occurs with cordite and enfield rifling but not as quickly. The British loaded cordite .303 the same way un-necked cartridge and then necking it after the charge was thrown.
It is interesting to me that you say that they loaded the cordite this way, too, because I have pulled apart .303 Mark VII cartridges and I was able to get most of the cordite out without breaking it (I removed some sticks from the middle and then the rest just came out). I wonder why they couldn't have loaded it that way, in reverse?
The important thing to remember about the 1850fps .303 Mk1 BP ballistics is that the Lee-Metford had a 30 inch barrel. The SMLE is closer to 26 inches, so you might be losing a bit there.
Indeed, there is a reason why the SMLE is called the *'Short"* Magazine Lee Enfield, as it was a 'Short Rifle", between the Full Length Infantry Rifle Musket and the Shorter Carbine issued to Cavalry.
The Lee-Metford also had different rifling which was borrowed from the Martini Henry and was designed for black powder loads. Not sure if that makes a different at all. But my hunch is that the majority of the velocity gap is coming from the 20gr difference in powder charge. Awesome video.
Very interesting. You are correct the SMLE Mk III* was approved on 2nd January 1916 in order to speed manufacture, the most obvious items omitted were the magazine cut off, the long range sights, the rear sight windage adjustment, the shape of the cocking piece was altered from button shaped [like yours] to a flat sided [similar to the No 4]. Although this depended upon parts already stocked in the factories, not all Mk III*'s came out of the factories conforming exactly, although some parts may also have been replaced during repair in the last 100 years depending what the unit armourer/gunsmith had in their spares inventory.
we could do the same with an old 1889 shmidt-rubin rechambered in 7.5x55 and tested with a new barrel that's to say for reloading the 1889 and remaining within the legal black powder framework (at us) can we do this: EMPTY Partizan 7.5×55 cartridge cases with boxer primers included, a .308 Lee mold LEAD warhead in 180gr or 230gr? and black powder PF2 or 3? what do you think, you are the expert ! forgot: are you doing a gas check?
Nice video. I know you spend a lot of time making and testing loads plus your normal job. We appreciate it. Maybe you could try triple 7 in the bottle necks like 303 and 30-30. Supposedly is hotter so might get you more speed.
Nice video,, However "You might have got better groups if you took the target and strapped it down" hehehe.. Stole that from Jeffs Channel.. hehehe.. Peace out brother - Dave
It did NOT suck very interesting. Beautiful gun too. My SMLE is a typical MK 4 No. 1 but I still love it. Not sure if I'll try this but at least I may give them Speers a try.
The old MK6 round, 215gr cupro nickel bullet, i actually have 30 rounds of the original stuff.. 215 gr loads. Also have cordite charged rounds. All. I also have some of those bullets your testing with. My Lee Enfield is a #4mk1 savage built rifle with the 2 groove rifled barrel..i wonder how that would do...🤔🤔 Maybe a project for a rainy day..
I had a Martini Metford and loaded it with as much Swiss #1 as I could get in the case which was only about 40 grains as I remember. This was nowhere near enough as it did not shoot at all well.
I love the smell and the taste of the black powder smoke and how it hangs around a little while!! Id like to try this in my old Stevens single shot 30-30!! Nice video!!
Willard - thank you for the tour around .303. I have often played with BP in my P14 and have had "OK" results using 170 GC home cast-n-crimped pure lead. QUESTION: Have you done anything with BP and PINFIRES yet?
FYI, my chrono is realty sensitive to dust & dirt on the sensor windows. Cleaning them with a Q-Tip makes all the worlds difference. Easy box to check. Interesting stuff as always. Many thanks.
as a reloader with 44years of knowledge and experience in many calibers I thought about my old military surplus rifles with black powder but I think it's a good option in the state of our country and it's only going to get much worse.as far as firearms, ammunition and reloading supplies. with barrels kept properly cleaned it can't be no worse than mercury based burden primers .I have data for substitute black powder for cowboy action shooting for rifles and pistols. although I don't shoot them it's good to have the option if necessary. I enjoyed the video. Papa wishing you well 😊
The limited other black powder content I've seen is what some might call a mind-numbingly dull snooze fest. For that reason, I seldom watch the black powder side of firearms content. However, you've somehow managed to do the impossible and make great black powder content.
Very good video. I want to ask. Im from South Africa and things are scarce here. I want to make my own BP but do not have a hydrolic press. If I make BP with the screen will it shoot the same as the pucked with volume by weight or will velocity differ. I don't mind using more to get better velocities. Thanks. Keep up the great videos
I have actually reloaded 303 British with the 70 grains of compressed black powder for a Martini-Enfield carbine that I own. Regularly loading the cases like he did in the video, it will only take about 55 grains of powder. The way I managed to fit 70 grains is, a bit crude, but it did work and there is a noticeable difference in performance. To fit 70 grains of powder, (I used 3f, shouldn't matter given you're compressing it) I would load the powder in thirds. 1 third, shake and or vibrate it so the powder would settle down, then, I would take a priming rod from an old lee loader kit, and a plastic mallet and simply crush that powder down. Again, crude for sure. Do that 3 times and the powder will be compressed all around the case and there will be just enough space just below the neck to seat the bullet all the way. I did this all originally with a lee loader kit, but now have a press. The only issue when doing it with the lee loader was that there was a risk of the bullet being hard to seat and ballooning out the neck, but other than that, this method does work for me.
@WillardMcBain it fired just fine, no slower to go off than a regular charge and I didn't find it fouled the bore too badly at all. I used FMJ bullets as well so no grease to soften it. I didn't exactly test a grouping for it but I was able to make some consistent hits out to 100 meters on a regular sized steel silhouette. Casings were left much dirtier as a result however.
I recently made up three .303 cartridges for my #1 Mk3 using ~52 grains of 3F under a 150 HDY spire point. Afterwards I started wondering how safe they would be to shoot. Wasn’t sure if I had enough compression for the GOEX powder I used. Another question I had was why couldn’t I get more than 55 grains of powder in the case when the original load was 70. Eventually broke them down. Seeing your video gives me confidence that my loads were safe.
Because BP produces much lower pressures than smokeless across the board, it should be safe in any smokeless proofed rifle or shotgun. Even modern BP guns will handle as much as you can cram in the case.
Can I safely use fff in my Remington 700 muzzle loader. It's rated for 150 grains of black powder, or black powder substitutes. I tried 150 grains one time, and immediately went back to the 100 grain load that I was used to in my older muzzle loader. If fff is safe, what is max load for this in 50 cal. Great videos brother, be safe!
Yes, the Mk III* eliminated the magazine cutoff, It also removed the "indirect fire" sights that were mounted on the left side of the gun on the regular Mk. III
Is the central hole of the BP grain of the original cartridge to help with flame propagation during ignition? In this case maybe a piece of thin, hot blackmatch (BP + Al) might do the same?
Yes but I think it was pressed out of meal powder and not granulated powder. I just tested some 303 that I was able to squeeze 71.5gr of 1F Swiss and 4F balsamic and they both performed well. Neither of these loads had a hole through the powder.
Wrong barrel for black powder. The Metford barrel was for the black powder, but wore to f a st with the cordite. That's when they changed to the Enfield barrel to suit the cordite.
I’m glad you commented on the ‘rules’ of powder granulation….that, there ain’t none! I’ve been using 3F in everything for over 50 years with perfect success.
Did you tell us how many total shots without cleaning? If you did I missed it. I'd love to know. I have two LEEs in .303 that are safe queens from back when a crate of .303 British (672 round I think) was $125 shipped.
Actually, I read somewhere (don't recall where) that the first 303's held 80 grains of black. 80 vs 70, it still is hard to wrap my mind around that much compression in a case that size.
Early cartridges had balloon head cases where the case heads were not as thick as more modern case heads which allowed for more powder space. These cases were also weaker in regards to pressure compared to more modern case head designs.
Very informative! I had no idea they were originally black powder cartridges, and made that way. I suppose you could make a barrel to blow out the case after annealing, then insert your pressed pellet, lube her up and run into a full length size die….🤔😬😁
I've never understood why most of the civilian shooters and some younger military shooters never use the sling for shooting which helps in accuracy tremendously. I was taught to use the sling by a lot of WWI guys and my dad who was in WWII. My preference would be the FFFg powder. I can tell by the sound that your rounds aren't up to snuff as they say. It should have that CRACK sound with proper loading. I hope you cleaned that gun before shooting more with the black powder. I've always had to because bad things started.
The US pretty much stopped teaching the use of the sling when the switch over to the AR (M16) happened. I don';t know why. I had been taught it in JROTC, but when I actually enlisted we weren't taught the technique in Basic. For what it is worth Plunging Fire was also dropped as a machine gun technique.
Like all your videos, I absolutely loved this one. Forgive me if I've missed some, but I saw the 30-30 BP video. Now the two separate videos for 303 British. Have you done any with the 30-40 Krag and/or 7.62x54R using BP? I know they weren't designed for it, but I just really want to see the results. I haven't seen much out there on BP for those, but it seems possible. I love your stuff and how you experiment, so if you are willing, I'd love to see it. If not, I'll keep watching anyway. Cheers!
Excellent. Thank You. I scrolled through some of the the comments & the Medford vs. Enfield rifling has already been explained. Also, there was no 25" barrels until 1903. These were Short Rifles, the barrel length being in between a Rifle & Carbine. This was probably explained also, but I was to lazy to read all of the comments. I recommend "Small Arms Of The World" or "Military Small Arms Of The Twentieth Century". Both make excellent reading. Thank You again for an interesting video.
Question. Did you swab the barrel between mags? Just curious. Also, the Enfield rifling is traditional groove rifling. The blackpowder long Lee's had polygonal Metford rifling. When they switched to smokeless powder they realized that the new powder was destroying the barrels.
@@Everythingblackpowder it was a critique and a compliment, you idiot. Seriously? Someone points out something which will make you better, and you go insult them?
That’s still good, a consistent high 1500’s to low 1600’s. Maybe compressing the charge in the case might let a few more grains in but likely would be inconsistent. Maybe going to FFF might add something but I don’t know.
That's interesting that they used that method in a brass case. I'm reproducing the hazard solid cartridges with a nitrocellulose glue or dextrin binder. Compressing the powder will slow the burn rate down the more it is compressed. For pistol cartridges I use 4F for rifles 3F.
Hence the role of the hole. It adjusts the rate of burn and the rate of change of burn. Packing loose powder into a squashed lump is a very different thing entirely.
I read that the powder type is more geared toward caliber. Like for small caliber up to 45 caliber FFFG is recomended, and anything over 45 caliber FFG or FG is used. ... now for my pyrodex spiel. I think youd get over 1800 fps if you used 777. I liked the video.
@@Everythingblackpowder So he should know the basics of Vietnamese (language). I was in the Marine Corps at the time and shooting use of the sling was not taught as much as just mentioned. But I learned the value of a sling from the decent gun magazines of the time. Not the poorly camouflaged commercials currently issued
Might take some experimentation, but you could make a slurry with the powder and wet cast pellet using the casing as a mold and a rod down the middle. Then remove the rod after it has dried. I'm not sure about drying it safely, I don't know how hot might be too hot to encourage faster drying without the risk of ignition. So air drying or freeze drying would be safer. Could be a fun experiment. Might not be able to compress enough powder in though?
Ups .. I'm back.. another idea - for start - just disolve as much as it will take (we know...bkt much) KNO3 in hot destiled/demi water, and add 1-2% by weight to Your 3F powder, after 30 minutes mix gentle again powder to equilase humidity , and pour in the casings. Then, with wooden stick, that have diameter same as case neck, and rubber/wooden mallet, compact it inside the case (forces go arrround 60°) so it will take more powder that way...and as said before, it will burn a lot faster, ( I know ...even without the hole, tunnel, or space between grains..). Waiting for Your report... Regards ;)
hows the recoil impulse on this? i would think itd make it a nice pleasant relaxing shooting experience compared to the usual full power enfield smokeless loads. is the cleaning process worth it though? how annoying was cleaning? does the brass expand enough to create a good seal with black powder so you dont have to worry about blow back in the bolt? taking apart the bolt every time for cleaning after black powder would really kill the fun of using it i would think
i might give this one a go it looks like a fun experience. in regards to the fouling you were commenting on how it maintained its accuracy shot after shot, i wonder if the hardness of the full copper jacket kept the bullet acting like a scrubber compared to the normal soft lead bullets im using to shooting out of muzzleloaders. ive never shot any jacketed projectile with blackpowder so this would be a new experience for me. i cant remmeber if you mentioned in the video but did you compress the charge at all when seating the bullet?@@Everythingblackpowder
i have no blackpowder cartridge rifles, all my blackpowder guns are muzzleloaders. is it weird i want to try this with my Mosin and Mauser too? i might just have to buy a martini henry@@Everythingblackpowder
You can squeeze inside more powder, in the way like You are pressing it before corning, but considering short(er) barrel, more pressed will burn slower, so no need for that .. try to use that "powder dust" that You throw away after corning, because is less granular than F3/F2... And press it with wooden rod, that have diameter same as neck of the case, with rubber/wooden mallet ... Leave only space for bullet to sit in .. before add some 1-2% by weight water. That can assist to compact it better, but also humidity will increase welocity of the burn by heat transfer (and will not evaporate soon, because its sealed). Another option, use faster BP, as You already mentioned - ad more KNO3, and more S, and less Carbon ...say 78 + 10 + 12 (just for test).. and clean barrel after nicely. Regards from Serbia ;) P.S. - did You tryied cast lead bullets? Could be gamechanger ...
I've heard of a lot of guys that reload buffalo type guns using a drop tube in order to get more black powder into the cases. The longer the tube the more powder you can get in. I heard of one guy that reloaded with a 36" tube. He would put the cartridge on the floor so the charging end of the drop tube would be easy to get to as he was seated. Thanks for the great videos.
Good show thanks like it.i used the left over dust from my powder i mean it look like sand in a 357 and 45 long colt .in the 357 i used 158 grain flatt nose with gas check and bullet lube .holy cow .it sounded like a m80 but shot just fine.thank you like your show.
I wonder if using the Lee-Metford rifle would change your results? Longer barrel and different rifling. It was the reason the 303 was loaded as a black powder cartridge though it was designed as a smokeless one. It might kick up your recorded velocity
Would you be able to do a black powder magnum cartridge? Like a 300 win mag black powder cartridge, i dont really know how safe it would be being that your lookong at like 75-80 grains of powder i believe, super inefficient technically but you could probably get 308 smokeless powder speeds out of it i think
Earlier posters have noted that the round was designed for smokeless and that the pressure was higher than the following cordite rounds. You did say it was almost unique but similar methods were used elsewhere for similar reasons at the time eg Danes and Austrians.
Nice maybe you should try it with cast just for comparison. Based on my Cap and Ball Revolvers you might be able to get another grain or two of powder with FFFg. It would be an interesting test just for comparison. Love these videos.
Another good video I know that you like Swiss Powder and wondering if you know what velocity I could expect from shooting 30 or 35 Grains of Swiss 3F and a .454 roundball from a 8 inch barrel ? I dont have a chronograph. Thank's
There are videos on how people fire cases in other weapons to produce .410 shells from .303. You could do that to open the case mouth, then make your compressed pellets and re-form the .303 case mouth by using a full length sizing die or step it down if necessary with other dies until it can be reformed with a .303 die.
That rifle has Enfield (conventional) style rifling, one turn in 10"... the original load was for a Lee-Metford rifle with Metford rifling (also 10" twist), not suitable for smokeless powders as the extra velocity caused accuracy issues (stripping?). That's why the Enfield armoury changed the rifling to make the Lee-Enfield with it's square cut rifling. I believe the idea with the rounded Metford rifling was to ease fouling and aid cleaning, which of course is not an issue with smokeless. Very interesting results with just ordinary loading techniques. I'd give it a go with 3F if I were you, using your "case full and squish it with the bullet" technique, which makes a lot of sense. Perhaps with the faster powder you could get within 100fps of the original Metford load. Great video... 🙂
They did indeed form the neck of the cartridge after they put the BP pellet in it, and they continued to do this with cordite as well. If memory serves the LE was designed from the ground up to be smokeless. The issue was coming up with a propellant they could make domestically. So they went whith BP. In order to get as much power out of it as possible, until they had smokeless figured out, they made the compressed pellets. The 303 Mark I actually had higher chamber pressures than all the other Marks of 303-including Mk VII. So no worries shooting MKVII or commercial ammo out of the older Lee Metfords, MLEs, and Martini Enfields-assuming they're in good condition that is.
The real problem was developing a smokeless propellant that would retain stability in the tropics.
The Lee-Enfield action is practically impossible to blow up - part due to their metallurgy with relatively soft, ductile but tough steel and the fact they’ll elastically deform before letting go and by then the barrel is often split. I’ve witnessed guys putting serious deliberate overloads in one and it wouldn’t quit.
@@ThreenaddiesRexMegistus You might find it difficult to blow to pieces, but that doesn't mean an overcharge won't wreck it. When the British Army went over to 7.62 NATO, they found that the SMLE was not safe to fire it continuously, but the No.4 would take it. The Indian Ishapores are made to locally available SMLE plans from higher-grade steel and can take 7.62 indefinitely without breaking.
Steel bullet. Good work! Been reloading 303 brit for 50 yrs. Have 4 of them. Ross. 2 mk111s and a 54 Canadian longbranch. Cheers!
Lee used Metford rifling and black powder .
You are forgiven for not fully translating British ordnance hieroglyphics. Had to do that once on a No 4 MkI-II. Made at Long Branch and re-arsenaled at Fazarkley to a MkII and restocked with a stock from a rifle taken out of service. Took a while to figure it all out.
They are hieroglyphics. I have a mk1** webley revolver with navy broad arrows
I have a No4 Mk1, and I've never thought of reloading for it with black powder. Well, next time I do a batch of .303 I'm going to try this. Thanks, Jake.
This was one of your best and thank you for attempting to replicate "Compressed Black Powder" I think the Lee's rifling, originally Metford was designed for black powder. I always considered my Lee Enfields, 1 through 5 to be true EOTWAWKI guns, just wich there was more ammo around. Now we know we can use black powder if necessary.
Great video as always! Could I put in a request for a video on black powder .357 magnum?
Very interesting about the case being sized after the black powder pellet was in. That sounds like a super compressed loading. I've always wanted a full length .303 Enfield and have often thought of reloading rounds in black powder for it.
Please try with 3f and 4f to see any differences in velocity is.. My understanding is that when england went from muzzeloading to loaded shells some off the old timers would not switch as the loads were to mild , the die hards were using 4f in there 12 gauge guns and were not happy with the week shells that were loaded
Fill the case to the top and take a .310 dia punch and press to compress the powder and then add more to tamp in the case
That's kind of what I was thinking too
The original .303 black powder rifle would have been the lee metford(metford rifled barrel). The reason for the change to enfield rifling was because of the change to cordite causing erosion to the metford rifling rather quickly. Erosion still occurs with cordite and enfield rifling but not as quickly. The British loaded cordite .303 the same way un-necked cartridge and then necking it after the charge was thrown.
Might have to give it a try with the hatful substitutes maybe 777 will give some better velocity. I have a 1896 mle that I could try it in.
Had no idea that was how they loaded the cordite. Interesting info
@@OntarioBearHunter yup couldn’t fit it all any other way think they did something similar with the .577/450 cordite ammo too.
It is interesting to me that you say that they loaded the cordite this way, too, because I have pulled apart .303 Mark VII cartridges and I was able to get most of the cordite out without breaking it (I removed some sticks from the middle and then the rest just came out). I wonder why they couldn't have loaded it that way, in reverse?
@@sbreheny it was all done by machine even back then so had to be able to drop the entire charge into the casing.
Fun video! I wonder if you could get more powder in using a drop tube, unless you did already and didn't mention it.
I could probably squeeze 5 more grains in there with a drop tube.
The important thing to remember about the 1850fps .303 Mk1 BP ballistics is that the Lee-Metford had a 30 inch barrel. The SMLE is closer to 26 inches, so you might be losing a bit there.
Excellent point
Yes, I was thinking the same thing
Indeed, there is a reason why the SMLE is called the *'Short"* Magazine Lee Enfield, as it was a 'Short Rifle", between the Full Length Infantry Rifle Musket and the Shorter Carbine issued to Cavalry.
Medford had different rifling as well
The Lee-Metford also had different rifling which was borrowed from the Martini Henry and was designed for black powder loads. Not sure if that makes a different at all. But my hunch is that the majority of the velocity gap is coming from the 20gr difference in powder charge. Awesome video.
Man, you gotta try that with 3F and 4F I liked it
We just might do that
I wonder if Starline would sell you un-necked 303 for experimentation.
Then he's gotta neck it though.
@@0neDoomedSpaceMarine As long as it is annealed beforehand, it should form easily.
I have always used 3f in all my rifles. Never had a problem, and ignition seems to be slightly more consistent. If it works well, don't fix it.
Very interesting. You are correct the SMLE Mk III* was approved on 2nd January 1916 in order to speed manufacture, the most obvious items omitted were the magazine cut off, the long range sights, the rear sight windage adjustment, the shape of the cocking piece was altered from button shaped [like yours] to a flat sided [similar to the No 4]. Although this depended upon parts already stocked in the factories, not all Mk III*'s came out of the factories conforming exactly, although some parts may also have been replaced during repair in the last 100 years depending what the unit armourer/gunsmith had in their spares inventory.
Thanks for the info!
we could do the same with an old 1889 shmidt-rubin rechambered in 7.5x55 and tested with a new barrel
that's to say
for reloading the 1889 and remaining within the legal black powder framework
(at us)
can we do this:
EMPTY Partizan 7.5×55 cartridge cases with boxer primers included, a .308 Lee mold LEAD warhead in 180gr or 230gr? and black powder PF2 or 3?
what do you think, you are the expert !
forgot: are you doing a gas check?
Mark 111* has mo magazine cutoff, no volley sights, no piling swivel, and no windage adjustment on rear sight
Nice video. I know you spend a lot of time making and testing loads plus your normal job. We appreciate it. Maybe you could try triple 7 in the bottle necks like 303 and 30-30. Supposedly is hotter so might get you more speed.
Nice video,, However "You might have got better groups if you took the target and strapped it down" hehehe.. Stole that from Jeffs Channel.. hehehe.. Peace out brother - Dave
fantastic video I never thought about using black powder in my lee Enfield if you had used 150 grain Speer with FFF I wonder how that would have gone.
It did NOT suck very interesting. Beautiful gun too. My SMLE is a typical MK 4 No. 1 but I still love it. Not sure if I'll try this but at least I may give them Speers a try.
Looks like you have a smokeless HV barrel. The black powder was lastly used in the No.1***.
You know, you could really piss some folks off by loading up some fffg in it and see the comments section go crazy. Food for thought.
I load a few calibers in BP, I use normally 3F and a 30” drop tube to get the most in the case.
Shooting the Enfield with that lovely cloud of black powder smoke looks extremely historical!
The old MK6 round, 215gr cupro nickel bullet, i actually have 30 rounds of the original stuff.. 215 gr loads. Also have cordite charged rounds. All. I also have some of those bullets your testing with. My Lee Enfield is a #4mk1 savage built rifle with the 2 groove rifled barrel..i wonder how that would do...🤔🤔
Maybe a project for a rainy day..
I had a Martini Metford and loaded it with as much Swiss #1 as I could get in the case which was only about 40 grains as I remember. This was nowhere near enough as it did not shoot at all well.
I have a original martini rnd which is sheet formed, but also another with proper case.
I am unsure if 303 was done this way have never seen one
i love the SOUND of BP... more a chumph than a bang.
Try 4F or maybe 777 See if you can get the velocity up.
if you can get your hands on brass .410 shells you maybe able to do it the original way.
I love the smell and the taste of the black powder smoke and how it hangs around a little while!! Id like to try this in my old Stevens single shot 30-30!! Nice video!!
The original Lee Medford had a 30 inch barrel. The later short magazine, Lee Enfield. SMLE. Short, referring to barrel length came out about 1907
Willard - thank you for the tour around .303. I have often played with BP in my P14 and have had "OK" results using 170 GC home cast-n-crimped pure lead.
QUESTION: Have you done anything with BP and PINFIRES yet?
Not yet
@@Everythingblackpowder ....waiting patiently and optimistically :)
FYI, my chrono is realty sensitive to dust & dirt on the sensor windows. Cleaning them with a Q-Tip makes all the worlds difference. Easy box to check. Interesting stuff as always. Many thanks.
They certainly formed the case after loading with cordite strands.
the resion it's called 303 British is there was also a 303 Savage
Precisely
as a reloader with 44years of knowledge and experience in many calibers I thought about my old military surplus rifles with black powder but I think it's a good option in the state of our country and it's only going to get much worse.as far as firearms, ammunition and reloading supplies. with barrels kept properly cleaned it can't be no worse than mercury based burden primers .I have data for substitute black powder for cowboy action shooting for rifles and pistols. although I don't shoot them it's good to have the option if necessary. I enjoyed the video. Papa wishing you well 😊
The limited other black powder content I've seen is what some might call a mind-numbingly dull snooze fest. For that reason, I seldom watch the black powder side of firearms content. However, you've somehow managed to do the impossible and make great black powder content.
Thank you
Fyi I wasn't gonna ask about paper this time !!! lol
Very good video. I want to ask. Im from South Africa and things are scarce here. I want to make my own BP but do not have a hydrolic press. If I make BP with the screen will it shoot the same as the pucked with volume by weight or will velocity differ. I don't mind using more to get better velocities. Thanks. Keep up the great videos
It’s not quite as good but it’s better than nothing.
Worse case, it won't be the fastest or cleanest boom dirt, but still well within the realm of 'dropping baddies" velocities.
How much is the stuff in M/s, cant you just write that under it in the video?
1 meter per second = 3.281 feet per second. No need to thank me. 😉
Looked good.Bet it smelt good too. Cheers from Australia.
70 BY VOL or 55 by weight or same thing?
Lets see a 308 black powder with the toilet paper carbon
I have actually reloaded 303 British with the 70 grains of compressed black powder for a Martini-Enfield carbine that I own. Regularly loading the cases like he did in the video, it will only take about 55 grains of powder. The way I managed to fit 70 grains is, a bit crude, but it did work and there is a noticeable difference in performance. To fit 70 grains of powder, (I used 3f, shouldn't matter given you're compressing it) I would load the powder in thirds. 1 third, shake and or vibrate it so the powder would settle down, then, I would take a priming rod from an old lee loader kit, and a plastic mallet and simply crush that powder down. Again, crude for sure. Do that 3 times and the powder will be compressed all around the case and there will be just enough space just below the neck to seat the bullet all the way. I did this all originally with a lee loader kit, but now have a press. The only issue when doing it with the lee loader was that there was a risk of the bullet being hard to seat and ballooning out the neck, but other than that, this method does work for me.
Interesting. How did it perform?
@WillardMcBain it fired just fine, no slower to go off than a regular charge and I didn't find it fouled the bore too badly at all. I used FMJ bullets as well so no grease to soften it. I didn't exactly test a grouping for it but I was able to make some consistent hits out to 100 meters on a regular sized steel silhouette. Casings were left much dirtier as a result however.
@@Harrison2610 well one of the primary reasons for jacketed bullets was to prevent fouling, so it makes sense it wouldn't have fouled your bore much.
Magazine cut-off and no volley sights
Once again, I won't be making any damn videos😆
I recently made up three .303 cartridges for my #1 Mk3 using ~52 grains of 3F under a 150 HDY spire point. Afterwards I started wondering how safe they would be to shoot. Wasn’t sure if I had enough compression for the GOEX powder I used. Another question I had was why couldn’t I get more than 55 grains of powder in the case when the original load was 70. Eventually broke them down. Seeing your video gives me confidence that my loads were safe.
Because BP produces much lower pressures than smokeless across the board, it should be safe in any smokeless proofed rifle or shotgun. Even modern BP guns will handle as much as you can cram in the case.
Can I safely use fff in my Remington 700 muzzle loader. It's rated for 150 grains of black powder, or black powder substitutes. I tried 150 grains one time, and immediately went back to the 100 grain load that I was used to in my older muzzle loader. If fff is safe, what is max load for this in 50 cal. Great videos brother, be safe!
I don’t see why it wouldn’t
Yes, the Mk III* eliminated the magazine cutoff, It also removed the "indirect fire" sights that were mounted on the left side of the gun on the regular Mk. III
Is the central hole of the BP grain of the original cartridge to help with flame propagation during ignition? In this case maybe a piece of thin, hot blackmatch (BP + Al) might do the same?
Yes but I think it was pressed out of meal powder and not granulated powder. I just tested some 303 that I was able to squeeze 71.5gr of 1F Swiss and 4F balsamic and they both performed well. Neither of these loads had a hole through the powder.
Wrong barrel for black powder. The Metford barrel was for the black powder, but wore to f a st with the cordite. That's when they changed to the Enfield barrel to suit the cordite.
So what? This rifle still shoots great
Very timely, I am going to make damnumition!
Who would've thought that Lee Enfields efficiently run black powder.
I’m glad you commented on the ‘rules’ of powder granulation….that, there ain’t none! I’ve been using 3F in everything for over 50 years with perfect success.
Thank you
Every puff of smoke reminded me of Volley Fire, Present. . .i thought about trying black powder in '03.
Excuse me that's an '03 Springfield.
I have a bunch of box's of very old surplus 303 ammo from early 60's 175 grain I believe they used Cordite want any to try?
no tnx
Polasonto wood seems perfect for black powder it's left to season for years and smells nice when burned what do you think?
I’m not familiar with that one
Did you tell us how many total shots without cleaning? If you did I missed it. I'd love to know.
I have two LEEs in .303 that are safe queens from back when a crate of .303 British (672 round I think) was $125 shipped.
You missed it, he ran out of ammo.
Actually, I read somewhere (don't recall where) that the first 303's held 80 grains of black. 80 vs 70, it still is hard to wrap my mind around that much compression in a case that size.
Early cartridges had balloon head cases where the case heads were not as thick as more modern case heads which allowed for more powder space. These cases were also weaker in regards to pressure compared to more modern case head designs.
Very informative! I had no idea they were originally black powder cartridges, and made that way.
I suppose you could make a barrel to blow out the case after annealing, then insert your pressed pellet, lube her up and run into a full length size die….🤔😬😁
1400 joules not bad !!!
I've never understood why most of the civilian shooters and some younger military shooters never use the sling for shooting which helps in accuracy tremendously. I was taught to use the sling by a lot of WWI guys and my dad who was in WWII. My preference would be the FFFg powder. I can tell by the sound that your rounds aren't up to snuff as they say. It should have that CRACK sound with proper loading. I hope you cleaned that gun before shooting more with the black powder. I've always had to because bad things started.
The US pretty much stopped teaching the use of the sling when the switch over to the AR (M16) happened. I don';t know why. I had been taught it in JROTC, but when I actually enlisted we weren't taught the technique in Basic. For what it is worth Plunging Fire was also dropped as a machine gun technique.
Thank you for the info
Careful with that bolt
Like all your videos, I absolutely loved this one. Forgive me if I've missed some, but I saw the 30-30 BP video. Now the two separate videos for 303 British. Have you done any with the 30-40 Krag and/or 7.62x54R using BP? I know they weren't designed for it, but I just really want to see the results. I haven't seen much out there on BP for those, but it seems possible. I love your stuff and how you experiment, so if you are willing, I'd love to see it. If not, I'll keep watching anyway. Cheers!
Excellent. Thank You. I scrolled through some of the the comments & the Medford vs. Enfield rifling has already been explained. Also, there was no 25" barrels until 1903. These were Short Rifles, the barrel length being in between a Rifle & Carbine. This was probably explained also, but I was to lazy to read all of the comments. I recommend "Small Arms Of The World" or "Military Small Arms Of The Twentieth Century". Both make excellent reading. Thank You again for an interesting video.
Question. Did you swab the barrel between mags? Just curious. Also, the Enfield rifling is traditional groove rifling. The blackpowder long Lee's had polygonal Metford rifling. When they switched to smokeless powder they realized that the new powder was destroying the barrels.
No, I didn’t clean it until we were out of ammo
Omg, stop saying "if I'm not mistaken"!! Have some ownership of your opinions and capabilities. You're more expert than the average bear.
Feel free to make your own damn video 😉
@@Everythingblackpowder it was a critique and a compliment, you idiot. Seriously? Someone points out something which will make you better, and you go insult them?
Black powder 5.7 next?
That’s still good, a consistent high 1500’s to low 1600’s. Maybe compressing the charge in the case might let a few more grains in but likely would be inconsistent. Maybe going to FFF might add something but I don’t know.
Man today’s black powder prices is $50 a pound that would be expensive shooting
Smokeless powders not much cheaper
Best start making your own
I might try this in the future sometime. I have all the stuff!
Good video
Thank you
That's interesting that they used that method in a brass case. I'm reproducing the hazard solid cartridges with a nitrocellulose glue or dextrin binder. Compressing the powder will slow the burn rate down the more it is compressed.
For pistol cartridges I use 4F for rifles 3F.
Hence the role of the hole. It adjusts the rate of burn and the rate of change of burn. Packing loose powder into a squashed lump is a very different thing entirely.
I read that the powder type is more geared toward caliber. Like for small caliber up to 45 caliber FFFG is recomended, and anything over 45 caliber FFG or FG is used. ... now for my pyrodex spiel. I think youd get over 1800 fps if you used 777. I liked the video.
I enjoyed the older gentleman's protocol of using the sling. A proper rifleman.
He’s a Vietnam vet
@@Everythingblackpowder So he should know the basics of Vietnamese (language). I was in the Marine Corps at the time and shooting use of the sling was not taught as much as just mentioned. But I learned the value of a sling from the decent gun magazines of the time. Not the poorly camouflaged commercials currently issued
Might take some experimentation, but you could make a slurry with the powder and wet cast pellet using the casing as a mold and a rod down the middle. Then remove the rod after it has dried.
I'm not sure about drying it safely, I don't know how hot might be too hot to encourage faster drying without the risk of ignition.
So air drying or freeze drying would be safer. Could be a fun experiment. Might not be able to compress enough powder in though?
🇨🇦 THANK YOU,,VERY USEFULL INFO
Thank you. I was able to squeeze 71.5gr in a 303 case and tested some yesterday. I’ll be doing a video on that as well.
That is a nice SMLE. Great video!!
Thank you
Ups .. I'm back.. another idea - for start - just disolve as much as it will take (we know...bkt much) KNO3 in hot destiled/demi water, and add 1-2% by weight to Your 3F powder, after 30 minutes mix gentle again powder to equilase humidity , and pour in the casings. Then, with wooden stick, that have diameter same as case neck, and rubber/wooden mallet, compact it inside the case (forces go arrround 60°) so it will take more powder that way...and as said before, it will burn a lot faster, ( I know ...even without the hole, tunnel, or space between grains..). Waiting for Your report... Regards ;)
Hi, quick question: did you clean the rifle between shots? It seems the powder is not making much fouling.
hows the recoil impulse on this? i would think itd make it a nice pleasant relaxing shooting experience compared to the usual full power enfield smokeless loads. is the cleaning process worth it though? how annoying was cleaning? does the brass expand enough to create a good seal with black powder so you dont have to worry about blow back in the bolt? taking apart the bolt every time for cleaning after black powder would really kill the fun of using it i would think
Cleaning isn’t bad at all but I’m used to cleaning black powder guns. The recoil is mild to say the least.
i might give this one a go it looks like a fun experience. in regards to the fouling you were commenting on how it maintained its accuracy shot after shot, i wonder if the hardness of the full copper jacket kept the bullet acting like a scrubber compared to the normal soft lead bullets im using to shooting out of muzzleloaders. ive never shot any jacketed projectile with blackpowder so this would be a new experience for me. i cant remmeber if you mentioned in the video but did you compress the charge at all when seating the bullet?@@Everythingblackpowder
@user-im6fy4qp6m I would like to try it with lead projectiles too but it worked very well with jacketed bullets too. I did compress the powder some.
i have no blackpowder cartridge rifles, all my blackpowder guns are muzzleloaders. is it weird i want to try this with my Mosin and Mauser too? i might just have to buy a martini henry@@Everythingblackpowder
@@user-im6fy4qp6mgo for it mate.
You can squeeze inside more powder, in the way like You are pressing it before corning, but considering short(er) barrel, more pressed will burn slower, so no need for that .. try to use that "powder dust" that You throw away after corning, because is less granular than F3/F2... And press it with wooden rod, that have diameter same as neck of the case, with rubber/wooden mallet ... Leave only space for bullet to sit in .. before add some 1-2% by weight water. That can assist to compact it better, but also humidity will increase welocity of the burn by heat transfer (and will not evaporate soon, because its sealed). Another option, use faster BP, as You already mentioned - ad more KNO3, and more S, and less Carbon ...say 78 + 10 + 12 (just for test).. and clean barrel after nicely. Regards from Serbia ;) P.S. - did You tryied cast lead bullets? Could be gamechanger ...
when black powder 30-06 ,or may I dare suggest black powder 50 BMG.
I've heard of a lot of guys that reload buffalo type guns using a drop tube in order to get more black powder into the cases. The longer the tube the more powder you can get in. I heard of one guy that reloaded with a 36" tube. He would put the cartridge on the floor so the charging end of the drop tube would be easy to get to as he was seated. Thanks for the great videos.
The clean shooting may be a factor of the copper jacket. As wasn't the Civil War Williams bullet fitted with a zinc easher to ride in the grooves?
Good show thanks like it.i used the left over dust from my powder i mean it look like sand in a 357 and 45 long colt .in the 357 i used 158 grain flatt nose with gas check and bullet lube .holy cow .it sounded like a m80 but shot just fine.thank you like your show.
I wonder if using the Lee-Metford rifle would change your results? Longer barrel and different rifling. It was the reason the 303 was loaded as a black powder cartridge though it was designed as a smokeless one. It might kick up your recorded velocity
Thank you
You should have been using 3F because .303 is a pistol caliber. 2F is for original Browning machine guns. 😉
Would you be able to do a black powder magnum cartridge? Like a 300 win mag black powder cartridge, i dont really know how safe it would be being that your lookong at like 75-80 grains of powder i believe, super inefficient technically but you could probably get 308 smokeless powder speeds out of it i think
Earlier posters have noted that the round was designed for smokeless and that the pressure was higher than the following cordite rounds. You did say it was almost unique but similar methods were used elsewhere for similar reasons at the time eg Danes and Austrians.
I said the power level was similar to a 3030 round loaded with unique powder. Unique is a brand of powder made by Alliant.
Ah! Fair enough.@@Everythingblackpowder
Nice maybe you should try it with cast just for comparison. Based on my Cap and Ball Revolvers you might be able to get another grain or two of powder with FFFg. It would be an interesting test just for comparison. Love these videos.
303 cartridge is the most weird looking cartridge
jake is the best person to follow for black powder shooting
Weirdest looking? Nah nah, that award goes to the 7.62 Nagant cartridge. ^.-.^
Another good video
I know that you like Swiss Powder and wondering if you know what velocity I could expect from shooting 30 or 35 Grains of Swiss 3F and a .454 roundball from a 8 inch barrel ?
I dont have a chronograph.
Thank's
1000 to 1050fps
Thank's
I appreciate the information.
@@Everythingblackpowder
You bet
That was interesting. I dont understand the sun affecting the velocity numbers. What would cause that?
There are videos on how people fire cases in other weapons to produce .410 shells from .303. You could do that to open the case mouth, then make your compressed pellets and re-form the .303 case mouth by using a full length sizing die or step it down if necessary with other dies until it can be reformed with a .303 die.
That rifle has Enfield (conventional) style rifling, one turn in 10"... the original load was for a Lee-Metford rifle with Metford rifling (also 10" twist), not suitable for smokeless powders as the extra velocity caused accuracy issues (stripping?). That's why the Enfield armoury changed the rifling to make the Lee-Enfield with it's square cut rifling. I believe the idea with the rounded Metford rifling was to ease fouling and aid cleaning, which of course is not an issue with smokeless.
Very interesting results with just ordinary loading techniques. I'd give it a go with 3F if I were you, using your "case full and squish it with the bullet" technique, which makes a lot of sense. Perhaps with the faster powder you could get within 100fps of the original Metford load.
Great video... 🙂