One creature that I think this deck may like is Runaway Steamkin. Having played against that thing in Standard for far too long, I can attest that the amount of mana it provides is stupid. And with this deck's low curve, it'll be making a lot of mana
Kyran Negotiations is a nice enchantment that can help keep your creatures avoiding combat by allowing all your creatures to ping for 1 damage, 3 with Torbran out.
Torbran is my favorite deck and playing the deck within the first 2 weeks told me it didn't need Furnace of rath effects. Glad to see the same thought process since everyone else at my lgs says its better when it's not
Basilisk collar plus your pingers is another way to guarantee kills while also gaining you life, it turns sharpshooter into a one sided board wipe plus a load of life gain
Torbran is the first commander that made we want to play mono red. He has a JRPG feel to him, lots of numbers all over the screen, and constantly higher values. Unfortunately in my meta, anyone playing him gets focused almost immediately. I think he needs to be built with that in mind, and have deep explosive potential.
I'm surprised to see no mention of the cards Leyline of Punishment or Tibalt, Rakish Instigator here. There are solid arguments against those cards but if you play in a life gain heavy meta, having two more cards with the text "Players can't gain life"/"Your opponents can't gain life" is a fantastic thing to have available. They are also relatively cheaper cards for the more budget minded.
I recomend Pyrostatic Pillar, Scald and Ancient Runes Enchantments work amazing in this deck I'm struggling in tuning the land/ramp count I play 36 lands and 8 ramps in my list but I've noticed I tend to get flooded
Play less lands. Around 33-34 then add a bit more rocks/ramp then add more card draw. That should help it to be more fluid. You should not have 36 lands for a deck that averages around 2-3 cmc cards.
My Torbran runs out of gas quickly because all draw effects I have found have been draw 2 discard 1 etc. I can't keep cards in my hand. Anyone have any suggestions on how to keep the card party going in mono red edh?
Can someone point me to a ruling about Dictate of the Twins Gods, and opponents being able to choose how damage-altering abilities stack? I don't understand why my opponent gets to decide how MY card's abilities stack.
Yeah, this one threw us for a loop too. Here's the rule we found: 616.1. If two or more replacement and/or prevention effects are attempting to modify the way an event affects an object or player, the affected objects controller (or its owner if it has no controller) or the affected player chooses one to apply, following the steps listed below. If two or more players have to make these choices at the same time, choices are made in APNAP order (see rule 101.4). 616.2. A replacement or prevention effect can become applicable to an event as the result of another replacement or prevention effect that modifies the event. So this is why, if someone has a Pir and a Doubling Season out and puts counters on their own creature, they can stack the replacement effects as they like (Pir makes it 2 counters, Doubling Season makes it 4). But in the case of Torbran with Dictate of the Twin Gods, the 'affected player' per the ruling is the opponent who is being dealt damage, so they can choose for 1 damage to be doubled to 2 and then Torbran'd to 4, rather than the damage being Torbran'd to 3 and doubled to 6. We hope this is helpful explanation, but if someone has more comprehensive rules knowledge and we've missed something, definitely let us know. This definitely isn't an intuitive ruling :(
@@EDHRECast But what is the 'object' in the case of Torbran+Dictate of the Twins Gods? The way I'm reading it, the 'object' is the source of the damage (a spell, say lighting bolt) that gets modified, not the player taking the damage. Or is the lighting bolt's damage the 'event' that affects the 'object' (opponent's creature/planeswalker) or 'player' (opponent)?
@@EDHRECast Thanks so much for this. Magic's a great game because I can still learn this stuff after 25 years of playing; it's a better one because of a community of people wanting to teach each other these complex interactions.
@@ChaosChainsaw In this case it's the second part of that first rule, 616.1. It comes right after the parentheses so it's easy to miss. There's a qualification for an affected object, but also one for an affected player. In this example, the player taking the Lightning Bolt counts as the affected player, so the rule allows them to layer the damage replacement effects.
How about those phoenix cards? Phoenix with recursions, since youll be sweeping the board and they'll keep coming back. Some of them even deals damage to everything when they die, or if you sac them. But they'll keep coming back, so good chump blockers, and youdont have to worry about not having anything when you sweep the field.
So one creature that's really bonkers with Torbran is Hostility from Lorwyn, it's mana hungry at 3RRR but it's real cheap at .15$, so with both Torbran & Hostility out your spell damage becomes a lot of 3/1 tokens that hit for 5 with haste, essentially it's a damage QUINTUPLER.
Dictate of the Twin Gods actually pairs really nicely with Torbran & Brash Taunter. You ping the Taunter for 1, and with Dictate you get to make that then 2. Then you deal damage to an opponent, and the effects pile on again. Even though they change the order of the operations, you're now doing 6 damage to them... all from a 1 damage ping!
@@ChristopherSmithGPlus but as pointed out above Torbran DOES care. So 1 damage to your Taunter does not trigger Torbran. Twin makes it 2 damage, which then transmits to target player. Said player will stack twin effect first, so it doubles to 4 then Torbran trigger is 6 to said player rather than 14.
I hope Repercussion gets a reprint soon. The card effect is so cool and unique, but I want a new border version with a different artwork. Something about the old artwork is off.
Kinda feel like Isochron Scepter would be great here. If only for repeatable burn. Lightning Bolt, Twinbolt, Chain Lightning, Skullcrack. Any of these would definitely get mileage on their own. But coupled with Iso Stick. You get multi taps, and high end burn for little to no resource usage
Here's my suggestion. Don't cut Brash Taunter, trust me.. It will stay on the board and when it starts to go off its amazing. I do like Mana Clash though, seems fun as heck.
I'm fine with you taking Leyline of combustion out, but I will be putting it in when I build my Torbran deck. I've played against a Torbran deck when Torbran first came out. Leyline was responsible for the death of the table. All of our targeted removal shocked us when played. The deck had lots of annoying must remove cards. Imagine if every card on Torbran's board had Ward- take 2+ damage. If the Leyline isn't removed first, the damage adds up quick.
Although Brash taunter seems like an easy cut, it is so strong mid to late game. someone has a nice 10/10? dont mind if i do 12 dmg to that player... Legit, this card can be a game ender on someone else' turn cause they decided to pump their hydra to much.
I am actually surprised that repercussion isn't added. Allows you turn creature damage into player damage aswell.. I made a jaya ballard, task mage which was based of using repercussion.
Torbran is one of my most-played decks and Nyx Lotus is an absolute powerhouse of a card, you're way off base on this one. Play it the turn before Torbran to have it tap for 3 extra mana the next turn is very strong and almost any common board state boosts the pips enough to make it a huge boon to getting him back out, too. Also, Glint-Horn Buccaneer a weirdly overlooked all-star (and pay-off for excess Nyx Lotus mana) that can end a game.
CR 616.1: If two or more replacement and/or prevention effects are attempting to modify the way an event affects an object or player, the affected objects controller (or its owner if it has no controller) *or the affected player* chooses one to apply, following the steps listed below. If two or more players have to make these choices at the same time, choices are made in APNAP order (see rule 101.4).
@@EDHRECast The affected object is the damage source, for example a Lightning Bolt. If the replacement effects exist (I control Furnace of Rath, Torbran and Fiery Emancipation) and I cast a Lightning Bolt - it is my lightning bolt (object) that is affected, so as long as I am first in APNAP order, which i will be say in my main phase, it will be me that chooses how they are applied, not the player or object being targeted. 3 + 2 x 3 x 2 = 30
As has already been discussed in other comment threads on this video, the key phrase from rule 616.1 that apply in this scenario are the words "or the affected player" (bolded for emphasis in the comment posted above). This is not a case of an affected object, but is instead a case of an affected player. Feel free to consult judges, as we have, for more information on how this works. It is not an intuitive ruling, but it is the current rule.
Find someone who loves you as much as Joey loves throwing in nerdy references. :D
You have my sword, and my bow... and my +2 dmg
One creature that I think this deck may like is Runaway Steamkin. Having played against that thing in Standard for far too long, I can attest that the amount of mana it provides is stupid. And with this deck's low curve, it'll be making a lot of mana
Thank you for all the upgrade suggestions
Kyran Negotiations is a nice enchantment that can help keep your creatures avoiding combat by allowing all your creatures to ping for 1 damage, 3 with Torbran out.
I've been working on a Torbran deck for over a month now on and off on Archidekt, and it's named "And my axe!" Loved the references here!
Just when I think I'm done with ordering cards, here comes a Torbran decklist that I'm itching to try out
Torbran is my favorite deck and playing the deck within the first 2 weeks told me it didn't need Furnace of rath effects. Glad to see the same thought process since everyone else at my lgs says its better when it's not
Basilisk collar plus your pingers is another way to guarantee kills while also gaining you life, it turns sharpshooter into a one sided board wipe plus a load of life gain
I would subscribe to a channel that was exclusively upping the average content.
Thanks Joey! Can't wait to make those swaps to my Torbran. Think you could do Kumena, Tyrant of Orazca?
Inspired me to make a torbran list! It's reminiscent of my Wizard101 days lighting people on fire
Torbran is the first commander that made we want to play mono red. He has a JRPG feel to him, lots of numbers all over the screen, and constantly higher values.
Unfortunately in my meta, anyone playing him gets focused almost immediately. I think he needs to be built with that in mind, and have deep explosive potential.
Challenge accepted, will be building that Dwarf fling tribal deck.
I'm surprised to see no mention of the cards Leyline of Punishment or Tibalt, Rakish Instigator here. There are solid arguments against those cards but if you play in a life gain heavy meta, having two more cards with the text "Players can't gain life"/"Your opponents can't gain life" is a fantastic thing to have available. They are also relatively cheaper cards for the more budget minded.
The base list already had 3, rampaging ferocidon, sulfuric vortex and roiling vortex
great video I'm glad I found your channel
Dwarven Mine is a Mountain and therefore triggers Valakut, so no worries about giving up anything there.
i love upping the average and i love mono red!
To add to the colour hate Omen of Fire is a bomb
Chandra's Incinerator pretty good for a creature board wipe. Have a nice day, folks.
I recomend Pyrostatic Pillar, Scald and Ancient Runes
Enchantments work amazing in this deck
I'm struggling in tuning the land/ramp count
I play 36 lands and 8 ramps in my list but I've noticed I tend to get flooded
Play less lands. Around 33-34 then add a bit more rocks/ramp then add more card draw. That should help it to be more fluid. You should not have 36 lands for a deck that averages around 2-3 cmc cards.
My Torbran runs out of gas quickly because all draw effects I have found have been draw 2 discard 1 etc. I can't keep cards in my hand. Anyone have any suggestions on how to keep the card party going in mono red edh?
Can someone point me to a ruling about Dictate of the Twins Gods, and opponents being able to choose how damage-altering abilities stack? I don't understand why my opponent gets to decide how MY card's abilities stack.
Yeah, this one threw us for a loop too. Here's the rule we found:
616.1. If two or more replacement and/or prevention effects are attempting to modify the way an event affects an object or player, the affected objects controller (or its owner if it has no controller) or the affected player chooses one to apply, following the steps listed below. If two or more players have to make these choices at the same time, choices are made in APNAP order (see rule 101.4).
616.2. A replacement or prevention effect can become applicable to an event as the result of another replacement or prevention effect that modifies the event.
So this is why, if someone has a Pir and a Doubling Season out and puts counters on their own creature, they can stack the replacement effects as they like (Pir makes it 2 counters, Doubling Season makes it 4). But in the case of Torbran with Dictate of the Twin Gods, the 'affected player' per the ruling is the opponent who is being dealt damage, so they can choose for 1 damage to be doubled to 2 and then Torbran'd to 4, rather than the damage being Torbran'd to 3 and doubled to 6.
We hope this is helpful explanation, but if someone has more comprehensive rules knowledge and we've missed something, definitely let us know. This definitely isn't an intuitive ruling :(
@@EDHRECast But what is the 'object' in the case of Torbran+Dictate of the Twins Gods? The way I'm reading it, the 'object' is the source of the damage (a spell, say lighting bolt) that gets modified, not the player taking the damage. Or is the lighting bolt's damage the 'event' that affects the 'object' (opponent's creature/planeswalker) or 'player' (opponent)?
@@EDHRECast Thanks so much for this. Magic's a great game because I can still learn this stuff after 25 years of playing; it's a better one because of a community of people wanting to teach each other these complex interactions.
@@ChaosChainsaw In this case it's the second part of that first rule, 616.1. It comes right after the parentheses so it's easy to miss. There's a qualification for an affected object, but also one for an affected player. In this example, the player taking the Lightning Bolt counts as the affected player, so the rule allows them to layer the damage replacement effects.
Great stuff man! Would love to see your take on Neyith, Greven, Skullbriar or Ranar
Neheb the Eternal and Pyrohemia gives a disgusting amount of damage, that gives Mana, that gives more Mana before the Pyrohemia dies.
Ancient Ruins is another good one. I also run Impact Tremors and Purphoros, but my deck is a little more creature heavy.
I have found fires of invention to be absolutely backbreaking in this deck as well. Tome of legends is also solid.
How about those phoenix cards?
Phoenix with recursions, since youll be sweeping the board and they'll keep coming back. Some of them even deals damage to everything when they die, or if you sac them. But they'll keep coming back, so good chump blockers, and youdont have to worry about not having anything when you sweep the field.
My boy torbran, I play him as a pinger tribal. Not that good but it's a blast to play
So one creature that's really bonkers with Torbran is Hostility from Lorwyn, it's mana hungry at 3RRR but it's real cheap at .15$, so with both Torbran & Hostility out your spell damage becomes a lot of 3/1 tokens that hit for 5 with haste, essentially it's a damage QUINTUPLER.
Dictate of the Twin Gods actually pairs really nicely with Torbran & Brash Taunter. You ping the Taunter for 1, and with Dictate you get to make that then 2. Then you deal damage to an opponent, and the effects pile on again. Even though they change the order of the operations, you're now doing 6 damage to them... all from a 1 damage ping!
Doesn't quite work, the initial brash taunter ping isn't increased, you control it
@@Seergun That's the beauty of Twin Gods: it doesn't care who controls it. It doubles *all* damage to any permanent or player.
@@ChristopherSmithGPlus but as pointed out above Torbran DOES care. So 1 damage to your Taunter does not trigger Torbran. Twin makes it 2 damage, which then transmits to target player. Said player will stack twin effect first, so it doubles to 4 then Torbran trigger is 6 to said player rather than 14.
@@ThePhotodyer You're right. Mistake on my part. I've corrected my comment.
Can this be Neheb, the Eternal? Or can you make a Neheb deck?
Arc Lightning and Pyrokinesis are decent removals in this deck too
I hope Repercussion gets a reprint soon. The card effect is so cool and unique, but I want a new border version with a different artwork. Something about the old artwork is off.
Sadly it's reserved list
🔥Lightning Cloud 🔥you're welcome
Kinda feel like Isochron Scepter would be great here. If only for repeatable burn. Lightning Bolt, Twinbolt, Chain Lightning, Skullcrack. Any of these would definitely get mileage on their own. But coupled with Iso Stick. You get multi taps, and high end burn for little to no resource usage
Here's my suggestion. Don't cut Brash Taunter, trust me.. It will stay on the board and when it starts to go off its amazing. I do like Mana Clash though, seems fun as heck.
You should do an upping the average on anje falkenrath
Why none ever talks about Fiendish Duo, when I came back to MTG it came in the first product I bought.
I'm fine with you taking Leyline of combustion out, but I will be putting it in when I build my Torbran deck. I've played against a Torbran deck when Torbran first came out. Leyline was responsible for the death of the table. All of our targeted removal shocked us when played. The deck had lots of annoying must remove cards.
Imagine if every card on Torbran's board had Ward- take 2+ damage. If the Leyline isn't removed first, the damage adds up quick.
Love your cuts
I think Mizzium Mortars is reasonable without the overload, that's just gravy.
Although Brash taunter seems like an easy cut, it is so strong mid to late game. someone has a nice 10/10? dont mind if i do 12 dmg to that player... Legit, this card can be a game ender on someone else' turn cause they decided to pump their hydra to much.
You could replace birgi with a runaway steamkin
Brash Taunter is definitely a weak spot but it's just too much fun with all the damage to all creatures effects
Love the video and the series, but I respectfully disagree on brash taunter. Every time I’ve cast it in this deck, I’ve won.
Torbran is a fun commander expect people tend to take you out first when you're doing repeating damage to each opponent.
Main reason I dropped mana barbs from my neheb deck
Well, guess ya gotta kill ‘em faster haha
I am actually surprised that repercussion isn't added. Allows you turn creature damage into player damage aswell.. I made a jaya ballard, task mage which was based of using repercussion.
It's a great card! Currently about $30 but a very good card indeed. :)
Torbran is one of my most-played decks and Nyx Lotus is an absolute powerhouse of a card, you're way off base on this one. Play it the turn before Torbran to have it tap for 3 extra mana the next turn is very strong and almost any common board state boosts the pips enough to make it a huge boon to getting him back out, too. Also, Glint-Horn Buccaneer a weirdly overlooked all-star (and pay-off for excess Nyx Lotus mana) that can end a game.
Humm, someone likes lotr apparently
When are you gonna teach us how to up the average on our beards?
(Lord of the Rings motion pictures) Gimli, son of Glóin, to Legolas Greenleaf: "Not the beard!!!"
Burnout
I tried Mana Clash on my Torbran recently and it was utterly underwhelming. Fun but useless.
You are completely wrong about how replacement effects work, the player casting the spell chooses. CR 616.1
CR 616.1: If two or more replacement and/or prevention effects are attempting to modify the way an event affects an object or player, the affected objects controller (or its owner if it has no controller) *or the affected player* chooses one to apply, following the steps listed below. If two or more players have to make these choices at the same time, choices are made in APNAP order (see rule 101.4).
@@EDHRECast The affected object is the damage source, for example a Lightning Bolt. If the replacement effects exist (I control Furnace of Rath, Torbran and Fiery Emancipation) and I cast a Lightning Bolt - it is my lightning bolt (object) that is affected, so as long as I am first in APNAP order, which i will be say in my main phase, it will be me that chooses how they are applied, not the player or object being targeted.
3 + 2 x 3 x 2 = 30
mmmhhh this is really tricky... I can imagine that either way is the right one... but I prefer to decide myself, because they are MY card effects
As has already been discussed in other comment threads on this video, the key phrase from rule 616.1 that apply in this scenario are the words "or the affected player" (bolded for emphasis in the comment posted above). This is not a case of an affected object, but is instead a case of an affected player. Feel free to consult judges, as we have, for more information on how this works. It is not an intuitive ruling, but it is the current rule.
@@EDHRECast okay thank you for the explanation. Now I know for sure... though I dont like it 😅