This was so enlightening. When I investigated the LDS church I was told that the reason for polygamy was because there were so many widows with children from numerous wars that Joseph Smith had a revelation that god wanted the LDS men to take extra wives to protect all these poor women. I was never told about the teenage girls being married, or revelations from god that men were to have multiple wives. I’m so thankful that you are bringing this to light.
I was lol at your comment, that’s almost word for word what I was taught while I was active in the church. And I’m with you THANK GOODNESS we figured it out and left.
Yes. In college a LDS student informed us that due to the harsh travel across the plains, running from religious persecution, many men died. As a result polygamy was necessary to help these fatherless families get to where they were going. Ok. Well, she was probably not told, knowing what we know today, JS and BY just felt like 30+ wives was God's will. And they were sexual predators.
I was told the same thing. This is wild and so unfortunate. This is like what we were told about the blacks and the priesthood. However, there were black men who had the priesthood prior to Joseph Smith’s death and Brigham Young’s reign. BY was a racist. He changed it because of his beliefs. It had nothing to do with Heaven. People need to wake up and educate themselves. All this history is documented. Personal journals don’t lie either. Stop being SHEEP!!
I grew up in the church and that was still what I was taught. Then I read about polygamy and polyandry in the gospel topics essays and they are all, well it was probably platonic. What is the point of all the upset in Nauvoo at the time of it was only platonic? The church can’t pick a definitive side because both can be proven wrong.
14 year old Helen Mar Kimball: "I longed for the freedom..." That, right there, tells you that she felt enslaved in a system that she never would have chosen if it was really a choice.
Sandra Tanner was I meant...that word free agency gets used around pretty sloppily by LDS.,when in effect everyone is sustained who gets put forward by the majority...or put best in the 1945 Sunday School Manual,"when the prophet speaks,the thinking has been done'!😢
I didn’t realize this was only Jen’s second time on. She did so well. Huge props to her. She brought really good insight and comments to the event. Sandra was so charming and fantastic as always. Gerardo is super sharp and on point as well. Great team effort. John, what you’ve built is truly inspiring. You’re a legend. Thanks for what you do.
The church assumes that members in gay marriages are sexually active in their marital relationship despite the fact that they usually have no proof of sexual activity. If that assumption is enough justification to excommunicate gay married members, then it should be justification enough to conclude that Joseph's plural marriages were sexual in nature. But the Prophet always gets the benefit of the doubt where the members get don't.
There is significant amounts of credible DNA evidence that Joseph fathered children with no one else but Emma. Joseph smith would be sickened at the treatment of gay members by the church that pretends to be founded by him.
@@jrtodd-br4zc There is a lack of DNA evidence that Joseph fathered any children with anyone other than with Emma, which is not the same as evidence that he did not father other children. Which is the same amount of evidence that can be brought against married gay members: for cis gay married people, it would be extremely unlikely that there would be DNA evidence of children from that union. Apologists, and the church, seem content with the lack of evidence as being sufficient to exonerate Joseph, but they use that same standard of evidence to condemn gay married members. I'm not so sure that Joseph would be opposed to the modern church's actions with LGBTQ members. I would like to think so. I would like to think that Joseph would be more in line with Community of Christ there. I've been disappointed by Joseph Smith before, though.
@@perryekimae You are technically correct that lack of dna evidence he didfather other children isn’t conclusive evidence he didn’t, but do you not think it is startlingly significant that of the many lines that have been tested, he was accused as having fathered children with ALL of those women!?! And those accusations are considered definitive evidence by the people taking part in this podcast discussion. They see that “evidence” as more credible than irrefutable dna evidence. It’s mind blowing. These are intelligent people but their line of thinking is completely devoid of logic. Then there is the issue that Joseph publicly denounced the practice his entire life and excommunicated people who HAVE been proven to have fathered children with multiple women, including Brigham young who Joseph was about to excommunicate for practicing polygamy.
@@jrtodd-br4zc I don't think I see the podcasters as holding it as definitive that Joseph DID father children with his plural wives. They hold as more probable than not (overwhelmingly so) that Joseph had sexual relations with some, if not all, of his plural wives. They even point out how DNA evidence has shown that some claims that Joseph fathered a child were incorrect. I think there are other explanations than the one you've presented that explain the available historical evidence better. Your claims may be correct, but I think the evidence favors the idea that Joseph had sexual relations with many women he claimed were plural wives.
Jenn reading Helen’s words was so powerful- her anger on behalf of this young girl and her mother is a small way to give both of them their voice back all these years later, and I’m so glad we got to hear Helen’s story in her own words
I see Sandra, I click. The OG of Mormon history/apologetics. I know a lot of listeners aren’t Christians and I respect that, but for us honest and transparent Christian apologists Sandra is a giant 🙏🏼
As a nevermo I always enjoy Sandra Tanners take on all of these subjects. She is never negative and always backs up her information with facts. No emotional attacks but reasoned facts. Thank you. So many times people who are deeply committed to a point of view can become irrational. She has never done this.
Thank you for welcoming those of us who are still believers who are interested in listening about church history in a less sugar coated and truthful way. I appreciate you making everyone on all sides feel welcome to listen to this podcast.
Welcome!! I have to ask-does it concern you that your church feels the need to sugar coat their doctrine and history, to the point that you have to learn about it from "apostates"? Does that strike you as the actions of a group committed to the truth or an organization that is seeking to keep their members in the dark?
@@bunny_smith. EXACTLY!! A 14 yr old cannot give consent. If her parents somehow “give consent” they are trafficking her. I don’t care what century you are living in at the time.
Great podcast! Maybe the best ever! What a great blend of talent around a masterful structure set up by Geraldo. Only been listening to the podcasts for 5 months now but never touched more than Jens powerful statements about Helen and bringing to light things hidden in darkness! And Sandra what a magnificent lady you are, a person I was taught to shun for more than 55 years! As a person who did it all ( mission, BYU grad, temple marriage, raised 5 children) I’m grateful to learn more truth in 5 months than I did in all those years. Not sure how many more years I have left with two types of incurable cancer but grateful to know the truth while I’m still around. Thanks John for all you do in making all this happen.
I pray God blesses your mind and your heart with continual peace, comfort and joyful hope as you anticipate meeting our loving Father and Savior. And I pray the same for your loved ones.❤
women in polygamy where being used for sex. all this talk of raising up seed and being taken care of by righteous men and consent, and women giving other women to their husbands, and even the word polygamy is a step removed from what it was, which was sex trafficking.
Looking forward to Part 3. A thoroughly delightful discussion about the unpleasant topic of polygamy. Always comforting to hear Sandra Tanner's wisdom. Sandra, you are well-loved and respected.
Replying to the part about the women who said they were happy in polygamous marriages. I have been a victim of abuse from my father and from my husband. When my mom brought me to the bishop when I was little, to tell about the abuse of my dad, I was scared to talk about it, and so I said that nothing was happening and that I was happy. But that was a lie. I felt shame and stupid about the abuse from my husband, thinking that if I tried harder that I could eventually fix things and that I would be happy. I couldn't place it in my mind as abuse exactly. It was so subtle that I was unsure if something was wrong or if I was overdramatizing what was happening. I tried to convince myself and others that I was happy in my marriage. Admitting I wasn't happy would be admitting failure in some way. But I wasn't happy. My whole marriage I was miserable. And after a while I was scared to admit it because of the financial implications the end of the marriage would bring to me. These women were told that this commandment was from God. To admit they were unhappy with a godly marriage could be shameful. They could have been scared what admitting unhappiness could have meant for their livihood. This isn't a good talking point on the part of these apologists.
So many moments to laugh about in this podcast 😂😂 This is my favorite format on MSP. Just like 4 friends chatting about a subject from 4 slightly different points of view, each bringing in their own insights. I appreciate all of you (and Carah) so so much. I’m a member trying to digest some stuff and this is an immense help. Love you all!!!
I think it’s probably worth mentioning that rabbinic scholars and learned Jews through the millennia have always struggled immensely with this chapter of Abrahams story. Largely they say it’s just a dire example of obedience to G-d. It’s not something even they have consensus. Also, not drawing comparison here but both Jim Jones and David Koresh disbanded the marriages of many or most of their followers and then took those women as spiritual wives. Almost every child that died at Waco were Koresh’s children from his wives. The children released were the children of those women and their original (and still legal husbands). All “self proclaimed” religious zealots seem to follow a pretty abusive script which keeps them in a supply of young wives, and simultaneously enforcing control on male followers… ps I truly ADORE Sandra. I first learned about her and Gerald on MSP, but have listened to every thing I could ever find. Loved her presentation on Mark Hoffman, about the Mountains meadow massacre, about the complete invalidity of the “first vision”. She is an absolute treasure.
Love Sandra Tanner...wish she'd be on more frequently!! Wish you'd revisit the Book of Mormon, First Vision, changes Pres Nelson is making, with Sandra... I'd love for you all to watch the upcoming General Conference then have a group including Sandra, Jen, John, maybe a past guest....that would then go over things said in Conference.. I noticed Sandra wearing a cross, maybe a session on how she views her life as a Mormon vs her new life as a nonMormon Christian....the differences, what she likes better each group, etc
@@mormonstories I received a notice that my comment received a heart...however, I edited because I saw I, or autocorrect, used incorrectl word..when, I corrected it..it removed my heart... 😥.. Sorry..
Jen, you are amazing. You definitely bring so much genuine love and concern to the podcast. I would like to see more of Jen. Also, Gerardo is so knowledgeable about things. I love that he can reference many things. Of course Sandra is a fountain of knowledge too and I Have loved hearing her insight!!
The Helen Mar Whitney (nee Kimball) quotes given at or around 1.54.00 are from A Woman's View: Helen Mar Whitney's Reminiscences of Early Church History (Religious Studies Center, Brigham Young University) The "the first impulse was anger" quote comes from an article published in The Woman's Exponant Vol 11, No. 5. 1 August 1882, found in A Woman's View: Helen Mar Whitney's Reminiscences of Early Church History p. 196 The "one ewe lamb" quote comes from a letter dated March 30, 1881. found in A woman's view: Helen Mar Whitney's Reminiscences of Early Church History p. 482. The "one ewe lamb" is a reference to the parable told in 2nd Samuel 12.3.
If I would have known all of this during the discussions, I would have given this Organization a hard pass. I felt lied to and manipulated when I did find out, thank goodness my BIC husband woke up and led me out . Our resignations ( both my adult children also) were freeing. It’s funny now on the outside, how these stories and information sound so ludicrous and I shake my head that this east coast girl who moved to Utah fell for this craziness.
This (and part 1) was such an educational video. I wasn't sure about Jen at first, being such a big fan of Carah, but I really enjoyed her perspective! You've got some incredible women on your team! I'd love to hear more from both! Can't wait for part 3.
My membership has been restored to me after 20yrs of fighting the church to find it. During that time I have learnt to think for myself and now I am questioning everything!! Thank you Sandra for helping me wake up to the lie!! The only truth they preach is we are children of god, regardless of colour or sexual orientation.
It's my personal opinion that Smith was a career philanderer, which began in Palmyra, and that the reason the Church/Smith clan left for Kirtalnd, in 1830 - after 16 years of residency - was because rumors about LIl Joe's criminal and likely sex offenses were evolving from rumor to general acceptance. Smith claimed religous persecution, of course. in 1831 Smith was living in Hiram, Ohio , 30 miles south of Kirtland. Smith and Emma had accepted an invitation from the John Johnson family to live with them, The Johnsons had recently been baptized into the Church. The Johnson children included 16 year old Miranda, Eli, Luke, and Lyman. The latter 2 were in Smith's original q12., until they were exco'd after blaming Joke Smith for 1837 Kirtland bank fiasco. It is believed that Eli had evidence that Smith was forcing himself sexually on Miranda. And Eli had vengence on his mind. A mob consisting of Eli, an MD and others agrieved against Smith was formed, and in March 1832, they pulled Smith out out of the house then, stripped, bound and spread-eagled him on the frozen ground in preparation for castration, an eye for an eye type of penalty. With scalpel in hand, the MD lost his nerve, and failed to peform the brutal surgery. The mob then resorted to tar and feathers. In 1834, 19 year old Miranda married Orson Hyde, but Smith wasn't done with Miranda. In 1840, Orson was called on a 3 year mission to Palestine. 26 year old Miranda was left alone. Far away from the Johnsons, Smith received a revelation in Dec 1841 about Miranda, where in the "Lord" instructs that "....my handmaid Nancy Marinda Hyde (to) hearken to the counsel of my servant Joseph in all things whatsoever he shall teach unto her...”. 4 months later in April 1842, Miranda and Lil Joe marry, and she moves into Smith's Mansion House. Poor Orson won't be back to Nauvoo for another year. As a serial and undaunted philander and pedophile, but now with a broken tooth from the tarring, Smith needed another underage girl to replace Miranda, and so he sets his eyes on 16-17 year Francis (Fanny) Alger, who lives with her parents in Kirtland - 1832/33. Smith knows the Johnsons will castrate him for sure if he dallies again with Miranda. Lil Joe's a smart guy - he didn't need a revelation from God to know that. In Kirtland Cowdry sees Pedo Joe and Fanny consumating their 1832/33 sacred union in a barn, and 5 years later Fanny forever drops from the mormon history books and Kirtland, likely having been run out of town by Evil Emma. Emma has a statue, and the Church should honor Fanny with one, acknowleding her as Joe's holy, first poly wive of the so called restoration. Smith, beloved as a prophet, reviled as a son-in-law, multiple times over.
The truth will always come out, it might take some time but will come to the surface Always!!!! The longer is hidden the brighter will be for all of us to see
If we’re all related through Adam and Eve, why do we need to be sealed via polygamy if eventually “all the work will be done” and we’ll all be sealed together anyway?
“Why do we need to be sealed via polygamy” We don’t. That’s a ridiculous notion. We only need to have our hearts sealed to “The Fathers”. Those Fathers are of one, and the same, heart. All the scriptures talk of this. Old Testament, New Testament, Book of Mormon and all recent communication to us from Jesus Christ. This was among the very first things Nephi told Joseph (quoting Malachi) when he visited him 3 times in one night and again in the morning. Sealing the hearts of the children to the Fathers. We don’t have the slightest clue who the Fathers even are or the heart they posses that we need to be sealed to, but I can tell you it’s not your dead biological relatives. And there is almost nothing a man can do to run faster and further from that one heart than marrying multiple wives. Joseph Smith told those considered to be his close friends: “you never knew me. You never knew my heart.” He was right. And it seems to apply even more today, and specifically to this podcast discussion, than it did when he said those words.
Is it just me, or is Joseph sending a man on a mission and secretly marrying his wife in his absence disturbingly similar to David taking Bathsheba and sending Uriah to war?
Just a little fun fact: in some cases, a man still has to ask the living prophet to marry. My Dad had to write a letter to Thomas S. Monson explaining his first marriage with my mother and why they got divorced but still having a temple marriage will be together in heaven. But my Dad wanted to remarry and needed the prophet's approval to have a temple marriage with my step mom. He got a letter of approval signed by all three members of the first presidency. We were all so happy about it because we still wanted to be sealed to our mother in the celestial kingdom but we wanted our Dad to be happy here on Earth with a marriage that lasts for ever. This was back in 2006. Fast forward 10 years later and we are all no longer church members. We all walked away from it for our own reasons and are much better off. But "technically" my Dad is/was/will be in heaven/but not anymore a polygamist.
Calling it "plural marriage" doesn't change the fact that it was polygamy. It is interesting that they are *_deliberately_* softening the language here. I would be willing to bet that they actually had a round table discussion about ways to change the dialogue about Mormonism and Polygamy - and redefining words or inventing new language is indicative of a high control religion.
I love how the prophet talks about how God can easily take care of "a father and some children." No mention of wife / wives. They are sidenotes, of course.
My grand daughter turns 14 today and is on a school trip, for one week, to Washington D. C. To think some old horny man could take her away from her developing life for his physical pleasure is equal to murder. The process of throwing off outdated religious notion is no insult to God, it's a vote for the civilization process also known as a change for the better.
One of the arguments at 3:22 in support of polygamy and polyandry is people binding themselves to Joseph Smith to "help secure their salvation." What does being sealed to JS have to do with a person's salvation?
Yes Sandra! The story of Abraham is a fore shadowing of God himself giving his only son, Jesus, to be the sacrifice for the sins of the world. Abraham believed God would provide and he would not have to sacrifice his son. That’s why it was accounted to him as righteousness. He trusted God completely even to the point of giving up his son. He knew what God promised him and he knew that promise came through Isaac.
Haha, ahead of this episode, I wrote a blog article talking about how indefensible Nephi's murder of Laban is. Funny to hear these apologists use that story to justify the other "divinely-appointed" atrocities of Mormonism.
Also they had the 10 commandments, since he took the "plates" with the writings of Moses and he knew how to read and write. I guess anything can be excused, even if God contradicts himself
Nephi does not identify the “spirit” that instructed him to kill Laban. In fact, he quotes that spirit referring to the Lord in the third person, meaning THAT WASNT THE SPIRIT OF THE LORD talking to him. In Nephi’s account of being shown what his father saw with the tree of life and the condescension of God (in which he was shown 2 individuals, one female and one male) , the spirit that takes him to the top of a high mountain IS referred to as the spirit of the Lord. That distinction was deliberate and non trivial. Remember Nephi composed what he wrote in the opening pages of the Book of Mormon (placed in the front by Moroni) decades after those events took place. He had a lifetime of wisdom and retrospect to reflect on that choice.. The killing of Laban marked the beginning of that civilization which began in bloodshed. Nephi was shown the end of the Nephites that did indeed also end in fratricidal and genocidal warfare. The end mirrored the beginning The Book of Mormon is teaching and warning us.
@@jrtodd-br4zc So, it could have been spirit of the devil? I've got space for that. If that's the case, Nephi's murder of Laban was evil. If it was the Holy Spirit or some other spirit sent by God (which, I'm not sure how there would be a meaningful distinction, as the role of the Spirit is to testify of God (the Lord)), then God is evil for commanding the murder, and so is Nephi for doing it. There are other alternatives, such as the story being a fabrication (of Joseph Smith's, of Nephi's, etc.). It seems that the arguments you've provided align with the theory that it could have been the spirit of the devil that instructed Nephi to kill Laban, in the which case, how can we trust anything else that Nephi writes? He seems unable to distinguish between a satanic spirit or a spirit of God. Why would we trust that he did the right thing in murdering Laban, but trust the interpretation he provides of his father's vision? Why would we trust the teachings of later church leaders who use the story of Nephi murdering Laban as a positive story of obedience to God? If you've found a way to resolve those issues toward a believing view in your mind, I'm happy for you. The resolution I've come to is that it makes much more sense that the story is a fabrication on some level.
@@jrtodd-br4zc One additional note, in 1 Nephi 11, the figure identified as the Spirit of the Lord says, "Hosanna to the Lord, the most high God; for he is God over all the earth, yea, even above all." Thus we see that the Spirit of the Lord in Nephi's theology can and does refer to the Lord in the third person. Meaning the Spirit mentioned in 1 Nephi 4 could be the Spirit of the Lord, as described in 1 Nephi 11, without the contradiction you've asserted.
53:45 That statement about how Joseph Smith is using Sidney Rigdon's own words and twisting them to try to take advantage of the latter's daughter Nancy is insidious and disgusting. Thanks for mentioning this, Gerardo!
For some reason, people will do all kinds of gymnastics to avoid confronting the obvious. When Joseph Smith and friends WROTE the Book of Mormon, they had been influenced by many puritanical preachers who were very strict in their interpretations of anything involving sex/sexuality. But later on, when they saw the advantages of a little more variety and pleasure, they proceeded to conjure up / invent / resurrect the idea of "polygamy," complete with angels and flaming swords, etc. But with their phenomenal ability to simply deny, ignore, or otherwise brush things conveniently under the rug, the "saints" mostly moved on and put up with the whole thing. Now, "the Church" has once again moved to the opposite polar extreme, and classified nearly all things related to sex, sexuality, intimacy, romance, etc., as basically the epitome of evil . . . accept for quick grabbing another organism with a pulse and a recommend and cranking out a gillion offspring 9 months and 15 minutes apart immediately following a requisite temple marriage, of course. Otherwise, don't you even be THINKING about it!
49:41 I am amazed at how _unironic_ the man reading this atrocious letter is. 50:15 "Some one reading the BOM for the first time might be horrified by the idea..." Yeah they might, because they aren't conditioned to view one brother killing another brother as a "good thing." That has happened might be a reality of human existence - but it is NOT a good thing. When you have a better moral compass than a 200 or 2000 year old god - ask yourself if that god is worth following. Again - when YOU have better morals than the god you're worshipping - it's time to ask some difficult questions of yourself and why you believe what you believe.
First, I’ve never viewed Hagar as Abraham’s actual wife in the sense of a marriage. Sarah was barren and tells Abraham to go sleep with her slave so that she can have a child through her - Sarah gave Hagar to Abraham to bare him an heir. It was functional. When the book says that he takes her for his wife, within the context of the story, I’ve taken that to mean he sleeps with as his wife in order to procreate, not that he actually took her as his bride. Also, Abraham didn’t have 20, 30, 50 wives. Hagar was a slave then became Abraham’s concubine. Later, when tensions grow between Sarah and the now pregnant Hagar, Abraham tells Sarah she’s her slave and to do whatever she wants with her. Sarah mistreats her and Hagar runs away. Doesn’t sound like a WIFE to me. She’s a slave who has become a womb. Property. Later, after Hagar has returned, her status is further made clear when Sarah demands that Abraham banished Hagar and Ismael and he does - his first born child. A male. And yet clearly a lower status than Isaac.
My wife has experienced knowing Jesus , all her life and know freedom of thoughts and spiritual experiences, the trinity, so glad you have escaped and have personal relationship with Jesus !
Huge love to Sandra, Gerardo, Jen, and John for this step-by-step breakdown! Jen is a powerhouse of a new addition to the team. As to polygamy, I kind of wonder if by that time, Joseph's "seed" wasn't all that viable. Also, the use of blue cohosh and wild carrot seed as abortives were pretty well known among the Native Americans- it makes sense the Mormon missionaries who married Native women may have learned of them and passed the knowledge on. Just because he didn't have kids with women he married doesn't mean much of anything.
"God only allowed plural marriages to produce offspring, and Joseph only entered these marriages in obedience to God, but there was no sex." That makes perfect sense! haha
Joseph Smith married one women in his life: Emma Smith. He loved her, she loved him, and she was his equal. Joseph sealed many men and women to himself and what he was doing and why he was doing it couldn’t be less understood by anyone on this podcast, or apparently anyone in these comments. Nor does it appear any of you care to find out. Brigham young had an entire harem. Brigham young is the founder of the church of Jesus Christ of ladder day saints. Joseph smith would be murdered again if he were alive today in the lds church. Nothing they teach, believe, or how they act have any resemblance whatsoever to what Joseph taught or how he lived. How could “God” allow plural marriage when the very image of God is one male and ONE female?! Attributing polygamy to God or that the one true God would ever “allow” or “command” polygamy is probably the most non sensical thing I can think of. Can only be spoken by the truly ignorant.
@@jrtodd-br4zc Due to your ignorance of the facts, what Joseph did to and with many women and why he did these things is something that couldn't be less understood by you, nor does it appear you care to find out the actual history over your white washed version. Adoration / worship can cloud one's perception, I get it.
About the apologetic that "there are easier ways to get sex, you don't have to build a theology" ... in the movie the sting the conmen point out that the trick is to get the mark to give you the money in a context where they can't even think about trying to get it back ... this is similar. By using a theology to justify elicit sex everyone involved has a motivation to keep it secret if that's what the leaders are calling for. If Joseph was just going to be a swinger, then what mechanism did he have to keep that out of the public eye? What is to stop his conquests or procurers from going public? Besides building theology was the tool set that he had for getting what he wanted out of people ... so when you have a hammer everything looks like a nail.
Gerardo’s context around Helen Mar Kimball’s marriage is so important. The fact that her father Heber already had a plural wife that he knocked up beings context for why her mother was so disturbed and how it breaks all the excuses by apologists that it wasn’t about sex. Heber’s polygamy was about sex, and he gave his daughter to Joseph. Why would anybody, including her family believe it wasn’t going to be another sex. When her marriage also was for time and eternity. It wasn’t only a spiritual marriage. There is no reasonable expectation that it want about sex, especially given the context.
Being a convert, nothing was said about polygamy or Blacks and priesthood. And so I had a testimony of Joseph Smith by reading the Book of Mormon. So I accepted this as revelation. Where would I turn to otherwise. It's the Lord's True Church. Have ??'s especialy about episode on Paul Dunn, my Mission Pres. I wonder how he could've has the Lord's authority on calling him as a General Authority, but anyway we don't worship our leaders. We worship the Lord. A lot of times we automatically sustain new authorities in Gen"l conference. Makes me be more aware. Thank you!
If Sarah was "righteous" in giving Hagar to her husband AND the seed is rightous... why then are all the seed of Hagar not part of the righteous lds? Are lds teens taught that polygamy is desirable in this life or the next life?
Maybe polygamy was more widely discussed in my hometown since we were so close to Colorado City/Hildale/Centennial Park (and we all had close and distant family there, haha), but I remember being told whenever it came up that the first wife and the father of the new wife (if she was underage) had to give consent. I was also very aware of Joseph Smith's polygamy my entire life. I just gained a new perspective once I was out of the church about the coercive nature of a church leader approaching a faithful (often young) woman to marry him.
I am glad that you said the Mormon God appears to be a jerk. It seemed to be like that to me as well. However, I also think that of the God of the Bible, but it's colored by my LDS expierience...
I've started noticing when apologists aren't very confident about what they're saying like Dr Kate Holbrook in the video you're commenting on and Dr Kerry Muhlestein when he's talking about the Book of Abraham. They tend to almost stutter and have a hard time finding their words.
Polygamy was not the “only” thing Joseph Smith came up with to suit himself, as a never Mormon looking in… that would be everything. Joseph’s god has nothing to do with God.
Also, though there is no excuse for the way early LDS leaders treated women. In at least this they were consistent with the culture in America which existed every where in every religions and even the laws of the land. It always blows my millennial daughters minds when I speak of my life for the first 35 years. Women couldn’t have credit in their own name. Couldn’t buy a car without a male member of her family co-signing, many many jobs and professions were closed to women. Prior to WWII women were chattel, first property of their fathers, then property of their husbands. It was a vastly different world. For my first three software engineering jobs I was the only women in my department two I was the first women ever, one had one prior women. My every day life was a constant mine field trying to do my job while facing a constant barrage of a kind of sexual harassment hazing it wouldn’t be believed today. And I had ZERO recourse management was just WAITING for proof women cannot be engineers. My daughters were appalled they asked was I still mad I said nah, I wasn’t mad 20 minutes after every despicable act. I just looked at it as a backward compliment, they were more and more threatened as I moved up the ranks of successfully completed projects.
Polygamy was illegal in America. Not the law of the land. I love it how true blue Mormons use history and culture of the time to justify a “prophets” nefarious behavior. You think he’d be giving them foresight or “revelations”, actually be ahead of the curve, but sadly they continue to sag behind on every issue (blacks, gays, women).
At what age now are children in the Church first taught about plural marriage? As a child in the 70's, I remember first hearing about it in Sunday School when I was around 10, which would have been '74. It immediately bothered me. I felt it couldn't possibly be the right doctrine.It sounded very wrong. I didn't think God would approve of it.. Little seeds of doubt planted in my mind at a young age. Though I was born into the Church, I was blessed with a questioning, skeptical mind. I think for myself and am so thankful I don't believe in the Mormon Church anymore! It is such a liberating feeling.
I had a Jewish friend who believed the interpretation that Abraham failed his test. I think a lot of the evidence for this interpretation comes from this story being the last time God talks directly to Abraham. Her sect of Judaism really believes in questioning commandments and cautioned heavily against following religious impulses blindly.
Christian pastor here: on the Abraham Test @41:00, the New Testament says that Abraham believed that God was going to resurrect Isaac from the dead, because he believed that Isaac was the miraculous son of God's promise. So even as he was raising the knife, Abraham did not believe God was asking him to lose his son.
In non-Mormon churches, Abraham WAS condemned for having a lack of faith. Not that he lost favor with God, but the interpretation of the passage generally goes that Abraham lacked the faith to believe that God could work a miracle and provide a child through Sara. Isaac, Sara's son, was the child favored by God.
In a Theology class that I took we had a guest speaker who was a Rabbi and told us about a discussion amongst Jewish scholars about the Abrahamic Test theory. The gist is that the “test” was about Abraham knowing what was right and wrong. He should have known that he was not supposed to kill his son. This interpretation speaks to a logical view of God, which is something I have never heard before. One piece of supporting evidence is that the Bible says that Sarah and Issac left Abraham. It can be believed that Sarah and Issac straight up left and never returned because they realized that Abraham was a delusional and homicidal person. Bringing up the Abrahamic test to validate polygamy is classic cherry picking and biblical literalism taken from a piece of literature that has been translated and manipulated many times over history.
Bunch of men died during the trip to Utah so they gave the “extra women” to be in the care of the men that survived…. And that’s how it started lol…. Cheap version of what I was taught as a teen.
JD was on fire in this series. Hilarious sarcasm. "Can we trust William Clayton on this one? I'm guessing he's about to say something unfavorable to the church. What do you think Sandra?" hahah
Thank you so much Sandra & everyone at Mormon Stories. Especially nice to see Jen. This was a heavy episode, for me anyway. Replace “Joseph” &/or “Brigham” with “Warren” -little to no difference. 3:22:49 Considering the deep bench of performance talents in the exmo community, it shouldn’t be too difficult to find willing participants who have the skills to make a high-quality documentary Helen Mar Kimball. There’s lots of movies on Amazon made on very low budgets with less than A-list actresses & actors-Amazon will buy/offer almost everything. A guy videoing himself snowshoeing & winter camping in the far-flung mountainous of New England while also looking for Sasquatch footprints-they bought TWO of these movies. Those are actually pretty good, but there’s plenty of others that are far less than B.
Has anyone read the book "A House Full of Females?" I'm a NeverMo, and stumbled on it by chance. It's an interesting book. It's taken from journals and diaries of polygamous pioneer wives in Utah. Check it out.
The basic idea of the D & C is that at that time, the Savior was micro-managing every aspect of Joseph's and other men's lives, virtually on a day-to-day basis. But now? Now he's evidently on a long vacation or off attending to some other world or something, because there's virtually no claiming currently that the Savior is dictating policy on a regular basis. Sorry, but where's the common sense in that? Isn't that a perfect example of blatant asinine nonsense? Here's my motto: asinine nonsense never was happiness.
Helen Kimball referred to herself as "one ewe lamb" in an 1881 letter. She's identifying herself with the "one ewe lamb" in this Bible passage: But the thing that David had done displeased the LORD, 1 and the LORD sent Nathan to David. He came to him, and said to him, "There were two men in a certain city, the one rich and the other poor. 2 The rich man had very many flocks and herds; 3 but the poor man had nothing but one little ewe lamb, which he had bought. He brought it up, and it grew up with him and with his children; it used to eat of his meager fare, and drink from his cup, and lie in his bosom, and it was like a daughter to him. 4 Now there came a traveler to the rich man, and he was loath to take one of his own flock or herd to prepare for the wayfarer who had come to him, but he took the poor man's lamb, and prepared that for the guest who had come to him." 2nd Samuel 11:27-12:4.
The only way to truly discover the darkness of that man’s heart would be to ask the Lord, but I wouldn’t recommend asking. If you get the answer, it will shock you senseless. I recommend focusing on positive things. My recommendation would be to start with the lectures on faith.
Commenting on the consent aspect of the podcast: Absolutely it is not consent for an adult to have a sexual relationship with a child/teen. Exactly, their brains are not developed and they are so prone to manipulation. What Joseph was doing is called grooming. Not only was he grooming the girls but also grooming the parents. Something that predetors are excellent at. It is why it angers me when people talk about child prostitution. It gives the illusion of consent. It is ALWAYS sexual abuse and is ALWAYS rape.
When are we going to do a Sandra Tanner tribute when we can all meet and let her know how much she has meant to us?
This was so enlightening. When I investigated the LDS church I was told that the reason for polygamy was because there were so many widows with children from numerous wars that Joseph Smith had a revelation that god wanted the LDS men to take extra wives to protect all these poor women. I was never told about the teenage girls being married, or revelations from god that men were to have multiple wives. I’m so thankful that you are bringing this to light.
I was lol at your comment, that’s almost word for word what I was taught while I was active in the church. And I’m with you THANK GOODNESS we figured it out and left.
Yes. In college a LDS student informed us that due to the harsh travel across the plains, running from religious persecution, many men died. As a result polygamy was necessary to help these fatherless families get to where they were going. Ok. Well, she was probably not told, knowing what we know today, JS and BY just felt like 30+ wives was God's will. And they were sexual predators.
@@sallyostling it's funny, like couldn't they take care of women and children without marrying them or avoiding them? It's such a weird lie.
I was told the same thing. This is wild and so unfortunate. This is like what we were told about the blacks and the priesthood. However, there were black men who had the priesthood prior to Joseph Smith’s death and Brigham Young’s reign. BY was a racist. He changed it because of his beliefs. It had nothing to do with Heaven. People need to wake up and educate themselves. All this history is documented. Personal journals don’t lie either. Stop being SHEEP!!
I grew up in the church and that was still what I was taught. Then I read about polygamy and polyandry in the gospel topics essays and they are all, well it was probably platonic. What is the point of all the upset in Nauvoo at the time of it was only platonic? The church can’t pick a definitive side because both can be proven wrong.
14 year old Helen Mar Kimball: "I longed for the freedom..." That, right there, tells you that she felt enslaved in a system that she never would have chosen if it was really a choice.
She was grt grt granddaughter to one of Brigham s wives,so guess she didnt decide!
Sandra Tanner was I meant...that word free agency gets used around pretty sloppily by LDS.,when in effect everyone is sustained who gets put forward by the majority...or put best in the 1945 Sunday School Manual,"when the prophet speaks,the thinking has been done'!😢
I didn’t realize this was only Jen’s second time on. She did so well. Huge props to her. She brought really good insight and comments to the event. Sandra was so charming and fantastic as always. Gerardo is super sharp and on point as well. Great team effort. John, what you’ve built is truly inspiring. You’re a legend. Thanks for what you do.
Can't wait for part 3! Sandra deserves a permanent recurring episode series!
I can't express adequately how grateful I am every time Sandra is able to join an episode. Love the episode, love the team, love Mormon Stories.
Decades ago as I was "coming out" of LD$ Sandra and her husband Jerald were so generous, kind and helpful. Bless her !
The church assumes that members in gay marriages are sexually active in their marital relationship despite the fact that they usually have no proof of sexual activity. If that assumption is enough justification to excommunicate gay married members, then it should be justification enough to conclude that Joseph's plural marriages were sexual in nature.
But the Prophet always gets the benefit of the doubt where the members get don't.
There is significant amounts of credible DNA evidence that Joseph fathered children with no one else but Emma.
Joseph smith would be sickened at the treatment of gay members by the church that pretends to be founded by him.
@@jrtodd-br4zc There is a lack of DNA evidence that Joseph fathered any children with anyone other than with Emma, which is not the same as evidence that he did not father other children. Which is the same amount of evidence that can be brought against married gay members: for cis gay married people, it would be extremely unlikely that there would be DNA evidence of children from that union. Apologists, and the church, seem content with the lack of evidence as being sufficient to exonerate Joseph, but they use that same standard of evidence to condemn gay married members.
I'm not so sure that Joseph would be opposed to the modern church's actions with LGBTQ members. I would like to think so. I would like to think that Joseph would be more in line with Community of Christ there. I've been disappointed by Joseph Smith before, though.
@@perryekimae You are technically correct that lack of dna evidence he didfather other children isn’t conclusive evidence he didn’t, but do you not think it is startlingly significant that of the many lines that have been tested, he was accused as having fathered children with ALL of those women!?! And those accusations are considered definitive evidence by the people taking part in this podcast discussion. They see that “evidence” as more credible than irrefutable dna evidence. It’s mind blowing. These are intelligent people but their line of thinking is completely devoid of logic.
Then there is the issue that Joseph publicly denounced the practice his entire life and excommunicated people who HAVE been proven to have fathered children with multiple women, including Brigham young who Joseph was about to excommunicate for practicing polygamy.
@@jrtodd-br4zc I don't think I see the podcasters as holding it as definitive that Joseph DID father children with his plural wives. They hold as more probable than not (overwhelmingly so) that Joseph had sexual relations with some, if not all, of his plural wives. They even point out how DNA evidence has shown that some claims that Joseph fathered a child were incorrect.
I think there are other explanations than the one you've presented that explain the available historical evidence better. Your claims may be correct, but I think the evidence favors the idea that Joseph had sexual relations with many women he claimed were plural wives.
I had never connected these 2 before. That's a perfect answer!
Jenn reading Helen’s words was so powerful- her anger on behalf of this young girl and her mother is a small way to give both of them their voice back all these years later, and I’m so glad we got to hear Helen’s story in her own words
Agreed! It was so powerful to hear those simple words from Jenn about the situation, "It's not okay."
Do you know what the timestamp for that part is? I was trying to find it and can't seem to pick it out
Sandra is on point EVERY time !
I see Sandra, I click. The OG of Mormon history/apologetics. I know a lot of listeners aren’t Christians and I respect that, but for us honest and transparent Christian apologists Sandra is a giant 🙏🏼
As a nevermo I always enjoy Sandra Tanners take on all of these subjects. She is never negative and always backs up her information with facts. No emotional attacks but reasoned facts. Thank you. So many times people who are deeply committed to a point of view can become irrational. She has never done this.
Thank you for welcoming those of us who are still believers who are interested in listening about church history in a less sugar coated and truthful way. I appreciate you making everyone on all sides feel welcome to listen to this podcast.
Welcome!! I have to ask-does it concern you that your church feels the need to sugar coat their doctrine and history, to the point that you have to learn about it from "apostates"? Does that strike you as the actions of a group committed to the truth or an organization that is seeking to keep their members in the dark?
Thanks, Sandra, for saying all of those affairs were not marriages. It drives me crazy to hear everyone endorse that lie, I guess just to be polite.
They weren't affairs, either. "Affair" implies two willing participants.
@@bunny_smith Wow, thank you!
@@bunny_smith. EXACTLY!! A 14 yr old cannot give consent. If her parents somehow “give consent” they are trafficking her. I don’t care what century you are living in at the time.
Great podcast! Maybe the best ever! What a great blend of talent around a masterful structure set up by Geraldo. Only been listening to the podcasts for 5 months now but never touched more than Jens powerful statements about Helen and bringing to light things hidden in darkness! And Sandra what a magnificent lady you are, a person I was taught to shun for more than 55 years! As a person who did it all ( mission, BYU grad, temple marriage, raised 5 children) I’m grateful to learn more truth in 5 months than I did in all those years. Not sure how many more years I have left with two types of incurable cancer but grateful to know the truth while I’m still around.
Thanks John for all you do in making all this happen.
I pray God blesses your mind and your heart with continual peace, comfort and joyful hope as you anticipate meeting our loving Father and Savior. And I pray the same for your loved ones.❤
Jenn is the type of content I’m here for. Get it girl.
women in polygamy where being used for sex. all this talk of raising up seed and being taken care of by righteous men and consent, and women giving other women to their husbands, and even the word polygamy is a step removed from what it was, which was sex trafficking.
Looking forward to Part 3. A thoroughly delightful discussion about the unpleasant topic of polygamy. Always comforting to hear Sandra Tanner's wisdom. Sandra, you are well-loved and respected.
I wish so much Kate, John, and Hank would watch this. Nice job guys. Sandra is irreplaceable.
I will say it again I love Sandra Tanner. I can listen to her kindness and wisdom all day. 🇬🇧♥️. Never Mormon intrigued Christian. She is super woman.
Replying to the part about the women who said they were happy in polygamous marriages. I have been a victim of abuse from my father and from my husband. When my mom brought me to the bishop when I was little, to tell about the abuse of my dad, I was scared to talk about it, and so I said that nothing was happening and that I was happy. But that was a lie.
I felt shame and stupid about the abuse from my husband, thinking that if I tried harder that I could eventually fix things and that I would be happy. I couldn't place it in my mind as abuse exactly. It was so subtle that I was unsure if something was wrong or if I was overdramatizing what was happening. I tried to convince myself and others that I was happy in my marriage. Admitting I wasn't happy would be admitting failure in some way. But I wasn't happy. My whole marriage I was miserable. And after a while I was scared to admit it because of the financial implications the end of the marriage would bring to me.
These women were told that this commandment was from God. To admit they were unhappy with a godly marriage could be shameful. They could have been scared what admitting unhappiness could have meant for their livihood. This isn't a good talking point on the part of these apologists.
So many moments to laugh about in this podcast 😂😂 This is my favorite format on MSP. Just like 4 friends chatting about a subject from 4 slightly different points of view, each bringing in their own insights. I appreciate all of you (and Carah) so so much. I’m a member trying to digest some stuff and this is an immense help. Love you all!!!
Loving this series and always love Sandra, her truthfulness has brought many including me our of the cult of Mormonism.
Gerardo is awesome . I love how low key and understated he is. He is quiete but when speaks is gold
I think it’s probably worth mentioning that rabbinic scholars and learned Jews through the millennia have always struggled immensely with this chapter of Abrahams story. Largely they say it’s just a dire example of obedience to G-d. It’s not something even they have consensus. Also, not drawing comparison here but both Jim Jones and David Koresh disbanded the marriages of many or most of their followers and then took those women as spiritual wives. Almost every child that died at Waco were Koresh’s children from his wives. The children released were the children of those women and their original (and still legal husbands). All “self proclaimed” religious zealots seem to follow a pretty abusive script which keeps them in a supply of young wives, and simultaneously enforcing control on male followers… ps I truly ADORE Sandra. I first learned about her and Gerald on MSP, but have listened to every thing I could ever find. Loved her presentation on Mark Hoffman, about the Mountains meadow massacre, about the complete invalidity of the “first vision”. She is an absolute treasure.
Love Sandra Tanner...wish she'd be on more frequently!!
Wish you'd revisit the Book of Mormon, First Vision, changes Pres Nelson is making, with Sandra...
I'd love for you all to watch the upcoming General Conference then have a group including Sandra, Jen, John, maybe a past guest....that would then go over things said in Conference..
I noticed Sandra wearing a cross, maybe a session on how she views her life as a Mormon vs her new life as a nonMormon Christian....the differences, what she likes better each group, etc
Did you watch my original interview with Sandra?
@@mormonstories I might have missed I'll rewatch it
@@mormonstories I received a notice that my comment received a heart...however, I edited because I saw I, or autocorrect, used incorrectl word..when, I corrected it..it removed my heart... 😥..
Sorry..
@@mormonstories the heart you gave me, disappeared 😪
Jenn is so great! Can't wait to see more of her work.
You know what I hear when they say "Stop being offended on their behalf"? I hear "Turn off your empathy."
Jen, you are amazing. You definitely bring so much genuine love and concern to the podcast. I would like to see more of Jen. Also, Gerardo is so knowledgeable about things. I love that he can reference many things. Of course Sandra is a fountain of knowledge too and I Have loved hearing her insight!!
Jenn’s comment about Hellen Kimball made me cry
I expect people appreciate the valuable history this program teaches.
Great video! Thank you all for your exceptional contributions!
The Helen Mar Whitney (nee Kimball) quotes given at or around 1.54.00 are from A Woman's View: Helen Mar Whitney's Reminiscences of Early Church History (Religious Studies Center, Brigham Young University)
The "the first impulse was anger" quote comes from an article published in The Woman's Exponant Vol 11, No. 5. 1 August 1882, found in A Woman's View: Helen Mar Whitney's Reminiscences of Early Church History p. 196
The "one ewe lamb" quote comes from a letter dated March 30, 1881. found in A woman's view: Helen Mar Whitney's Reminiscences of Early Church History p. 482.
The "one ewe lamb" is a reference to the parable told in 2nd Samuel 12.3.
Jen is amazing!!!! PLEASE have her back!
This series is the best!
Double standards are a staple necessity for narcissists. Lies are also a staple standard for narcissists
If I would have known all of this during the discussions, I would have given this Organization a hard pass. I felt lied to and manipulated when I did find out, thank goodness my BIC husband woke up and led me out . Our resignations ( both my adult children also) were freeing. It’s funny now on the outside, how these stories and information sound so ludicrous and I shake my head that this east coast girl who moved to Utah fell for this craziness.
you will never catch me being so wrapped up in a religion that i argue whether a 14 yr old girl was raped by her husband. Its mind blowing.
What is Jen’s Mormon story? There is so much pain in her eyes and voice!
This (and part 1) was such an educational video. I wasn't sure about Jen at first, being such a big fan of Carah, but I really enjoyed her perspective! You've got some incredible women on your team! I'd love to hear more from both! Can't wait for part 3.
My membership has been restored to me after 20yrs of fighting the church to find it. During that time I have learnt to think for myself and now I am questioning everything!! Thank you Sandra for helping me wake up to the lie!! The only truth they preach is we are children of god, regardless of colour or sexual orientation.
It's my personal opinion that Smith was a career philanderer, which began in Palmyra, and that the reason the Church/Smith clan left for Kirtalnd, in 1830 - after 16 years of residency - was because rumors about LIl Joe's criminal and likely sex offenses were evolving from rumor to general acceptance. Smith claimed religous persecution, of course. in 1831 Smith was living in Hiram, Ohio , 30 miles south of Kirtland. Smith and Emma had accepted an invitation from the John Johnson family to live with them, The Johnsons had recently been baptized into the Church. The Johnson children included 16 year old Miranda, Eli, Luke, and Lyman. The latter 2 were in Smith's original q12., until they were exco'd after blaming Joke Smith for 1837 Kirtland bank fiasco.
It is believed that Eli had evidence that Smith was forcing himself sexually on Miranda. And Eli had vengence on his mind. A mob consisting of Eli, an MD and others agrieved against Smith was formed, and in March 1832, they pulled Smith out out of the house then, stripped, bound and spread-eagled him on the frozen ground in preparation for castration, an eye for an eye type of penalty. With scalpel in hand, the MD lost his nerve, and failed to peform the brutal surgery. The mob then resorted to tar and feathers.
In 1834, 19 year old Miranda married Orson Hyde, but Smith wasn't done with Miranda. In 1840, Orson was called on a 3 year mission to Palestine. 26 year old Miranda was left alone. Far away from the Johnsons, Smith received a revelation in Dec 1841 about Miranda, where in the "Lord" instructs that "....my handmaid Nancy Marinda Hyde (to) hearken to the counsel of my servant Joseph in all things whatsoever he shall teach unto her...”. 4 months later in April 1842, Miranda and Lil Joe marry, and she moves into Smith's Mansion House. Poor Orson won't be back to Nauvoo for another year.
As a serial and undaunted philander and pedophile, but now with a broken tooth from the tarring, Smith needed another underage girl to replace Miranda, and so he sets his eyes on 16-17 year Francis (Fanny) Alger, who lives with her parents in Kirtland - 1832/33. Smith knows the Johnsons will castrate him for sure if he dallies again with Miranda. Lil Joe's a smart guy - he didn't need a revelation from God to know that.
In Kirtland Cowdry sees Pedo Joe and Fanny consumating their 1832/33 sacred union in a barn, and 5 years later Fanny forever drops from the mormon history books and Kirtland, likely having been run out of town by Evil Emma.
Emma has a statue, and the Church should honor Fanny with one, acknowleding her as Joe's holy, first poly wive of the so called restoration.
Smith, beloved as a prophet, reviled as a son-in-law, multiple times over.
The truth will always come out, it might take some time but will come to the surface Always!!!! The longer is hidden the brighter will be for all of us to see
If we’re all related through Adam and Eve, why do we need to be sealed via polygamy if eventually “all the work will be done” and we’ll all be sealed together anyway?
“Why do we need to be sealed via polygamy”
We don’t. That’s a ridiculous notion.
We only need to have our hearts sealed to “The Fathers”. Those Fathers are of one, and the same, heart. All the scriptures talk of this. Old Testament, New Testament, Book of Mormon and all recent communication to us from Jesus Christ. This was among the very first things Nephi told Joseph (quoting Malachi) when he visited him 3 times in one night and again in the morning. Sealing the hearts of the children to the Fathers. We don’t have the slightest clue who the Fathers even are or the heart they posses that we need to be sealed to, but I can tell you it’s not your dead biological relatives. And there is almost nothing a man can do to run faster and further from that one heart than marrying multiple wives.
Joseph Smith told those considered to be his close friends: “you never knew me. You never knew my heart.” He was right. And it seems to apply even more today, and specifically to this podcast discussion, than it did when he said those words.
This was such a great episode. Thanks all!
Is it just me, or is Joseph sending a man on a mission and secretly marrying his wife in his absence disturbingly similar to David taking Bathsheba and sending Uriah to war?
Exatamente!
"So Joseph Smith actially tried to restore thé concubines.. " That's so hilarious, can't stop laughing - you made m'y evening John! 😂
(in "offering" Nancy to be his concubine...)
Just a little fun fact: in some cases, a man still has to ask the living prophet to marry. My Dad had to write a letter to Thomas S. Monson explaining his first marriage with my mother and why they got divorced but still having a temple marriage will be together in heaven. But my Dad wanted to remarry and needed the prophet's approval to have a temple marriage with my step mom. He got a letter of approval signed by all three members of the first presidency. We were all so happy about it because we still wanted to be sealed to our mother in the celestial kingdom but we wanted our Dad to be happy here on Earth with a marriage that lasts for ever. This was back in 2006. Fast forward 10 years later and we are all no longer church members. We all walked away from it for our own reasons and are much better off. But "technically" my Dad is/was/will be in heaven/but not anymore a polygamist.
Calling it "plural marriage" doesn't change the fact that it was polygamy. It is interesting that they are *_deliberately_* softening the language here. I would be willing to bet that they actually had a round table discussion about ways to change the dialogue about Mormonism and Polygamy - and redefining words or inventing new language is indicative of a high control religion.
I love how the prophet talks about how God can easily take care of "a father and some children." No mention of wife / wives. They are sidenotes, of course.
Taking it's cue for women as property straight from the Good Book.
My grand daughter turns 14 today and is on a school trip, for one week, to Washington D. C. To think some old horny man could take her away from her developing life for his physical pleasure is equal to murder. The process of throwing off outdated religious notion is no insult to God, it's a vote for the civilization process also known as a change for the better.
Her parents were in on it too. They got a higher spot in heaven.
One of the arguments at 3:22 in support of polygamy and polyandry is people binding themselves to Joseph Smith to "help secure their salvation." What does being sealed to JS have to do with a person's salvation?
Yes Sandra! The story of Abraham is a fore shadowing of God himself giving his only son, Jesus, to be the sacrifice for the sins of the world. Abraham believed God would provide and he would not have to sacrifice his son. That’s why it was accounted to him as righteousness. He trusted God completely even to the point of giving up his son. He knew what God promised him and he knew that promise came through Isaac.
Thank you for helping me to understand this story of Abraham and Isaac - and it's purpose - more fully.
Haha, ahead of this episode, I wrote a blog article talking about how indefensible Nephi's murder of Laban is. Funny to hear these apologists use that story to justify the other "divinely-appointed" atrocities of Mormonism.
Amen Perry.
Also they had the 10 commandments, since he took the "plates" with the writings of Moses and he knew how to read and write. I guess anything can be excused, even if God contradicts himself
Nephi does not identify the “spirit” that instructed him to kill Laban. In fact, he quotes that spirit referring to the Lord in the third person, meaning THAT WASNT THE SPIRIT OF THE LORD talking to him. In Nephi’s account of being shown what his father saw with the tree of life and the condescension of God (in which he was shown 2 individuals, one female and one male) , the spirit that takes him to the top of a high mountain IS referred to as the spirit of the Lord. That distinction was deliberate and non trivial. Remember Nephi composed what he wrote in the opening pages of the Book of Mormon (placed in the front by Moroni) decades after those events took place. He had a lifetime of wisdom and retrospect to reflect on that choice..
The killing of Laban marked the beginning of that civilization which began in bloodshed. Nephi was shown the end of the Nephites that did indeed also end in fratricidal and genocidal warfare. The end mirrored the beginning The Book of Mormon is teaching and warning us.
@@jrtodd-br4zc So, it could have been spirit of the devil? I've got space for that. If that's the case, Nephi's murder of Laban was evil. If it was the Holy Spirit or some other spirit sent by God (which, I'm not sure how there would be a meaningful distinction, as the role of the Spirit is to testify of God (the Lord)), then God is evil for commanding the murder, and so is Nephi for doing it. There are other alternatives, such as the story being a fabrication (of Joseph Smith's, of Nephi's, etc.).
It seems that the arguments you've provided align with the theory that it could have been the spirit of the devil that instructed Nephi to kill Laban, in the which case, how can we trust anything else that Nephi writes? He seems unable to distinguish between a satanic spirit or a spirit of God. Why would we trust that he did the right thing in murdering Laban, but trust the interpretation he provides of his father's vision? Why would we trust the teachings of later church leaders who use the story of Nephi murdering Laban as a positive story of obedience to God?
If you've found a way to resolve those issues toward a believing view in your mind, I'm happy for you. The resolution I've come to is that it makes much more sense that the story is a fabrication on some level.
@@jrtodd-br4zc One additional note, in 1 Nephi 11, the figure identified as the Spirit of the Lord says, "Hosanna to the Lord, the most high God; for he is God over all the earth, yea, even above all." Thus we see that the Spirit of the Lord in Nephi's theology can and does refer to the Lord in the third person. Meaning the Spirit mentioned in 1 Nephi 4 could be the Spirit of the Lord, as described in 1 Nephi 11, without the contradiction you've asserted.
53:45 That statement about how Joseph Smith is using Sidney Rigdon's own words and twisting them to try to take advantage of the latter's daughter Nancy is insidious and disgusting. Thanks for mentioning this, Gerardo!
Why is it that no one calls out Joseph Smith for saying that Isaac of the Bible was a polygamist, Isaac had only one wife, Rebecca.
For some reason, people will do all kinds of gymnastics to avoid confronting the obvious. When Joseph Smith and friends WROTE the Book of Mormon, they had been influenced by many puritanical preachers who were very strict in their interpretations of anything involving sex/sexuality. But later on, when they saw the advantages of a little more variety and pleasure, they proceeded to conjure up / invent / resurrect the idea of "polygamy," complete with angels and flaming swords, etc. But with their phenomenal ability to simply deny, ignore, or otherwise brush things conveniently under the rug, the "saints" mostly moved on and put up with the whole thing. Now, "the Church" has once again moved to the opposite polar extreme, and classified nearly all things related to sex, sexuality, intimacy, romance, etc., as basically the epitome of evil . . . accept for quick grabbing another organism with a pulse and a recommend and cranking out a gillion offspring 9 months and 15 minutes apart immediately following a requisite temple marriage, of course. Otherwise, don't you even be THINKING about it!
This was amazing I’m so excited for part 3
49:41 I am amazed at how _unironic_ the man reading this atrocious letter is. 50:15 "Some one reading the BOM for the first time might be horrified by the idea..." Yeah they might, because they aren't conditioned to view one brother killing another brother as a "good thing." That has happened might be a reality of human existence - but it is NOT a good thing. When you have a better moral compass than a 200 or 2000 year old god - ask yourself if that god is worth following. Again - when YOU have better morals than the god you're worshipping - it's time to ask some difficult questions of yourself and why you believe what you believe.
So true...that comment struck me as well 🤦♀️
First, I’ve never viewed Hagar as Abraham’s actual wife in the sense of a marriage. Sarah was barren and tells Abraham to go sleep with her slave so that she can have a child through her - Sarah gave Hagar to Abraham to bare him an heir. It was functional. When the book says that he takes her for his wife, within the context of the story, I’ve taken that to mean he sleeps with as his wife in order to procreate, not that he actually took her as his bride. Also, Abraham didn’t have 20, 30, 50 wives. Hagar was a slave then became Abraham’s concubine. Later, when tensions grow between Sarah and the now pregnant Hagar, Abraham tells Sarah she’s her slave and to do whatever she wants with her. Sarah mistreats her and Hagar runs away. Doesn’t sound like a WIFE to me. She’s a slave who has become a womb. Property. Later, after Hagar has returned, her status is further made clear when Sarah demands that Abraham banished Hagar and Ismael and he does - his first born child. A male. And yet clearly a lower status than Isaac.
I grew up learning about Chinese concubines. The status of those wives and children are a good explanation of the status of concubines.
Can't wait for part 3
My wife has experienced knowing Jesus , all her life and know freedom of thoughts and spiritual experiences, the trinity, so glad you have escaped and have personal relationship with Jesus !
It was actually pretty unheard of to marry at 14, even then, and we need to call out when people say otherwise.
Huge love to Sandra, Gerardo, Jen, and John for this step-by-step breakdown! Jen is a powerhouse of a new addition to the team. As to polygamy, I kind of wonder if by that time, Joseph's "seed" wasn't all that viable. Also, the use of blue cohosh and wild carrot seed as abortives were pretty well known among the Native Americans- it makes sense the Mormon missionaries who married Native women may have learned of them and passed the knowledge on. Just because he didn't have kids with women he married doesn't mean much of anything.
"God only allowed plural marriages to produce offspring, and Joseph only entered these marriages in obedience to God, but there was no sex." That makes perfect sense! haha
Joseph Smith married one women in his life: Emma Smith. He loved her, she loved him, and she was his equal.
Joseph sealed many men and women to himself and what he was doing and why he was doing it couldn’t be less understood by anyone on this podcast, or apparently anyone in these comments. Nor does it appear any of you care to find out.
Brigham young had an entire harem. Brigham young is the founder of the church of Jesus Christ of ladder day saints. Joseph smith would be murdered again if he were alive today in the lds church. Nothing they teach, believe, or how they act have any resemblance whatsoever to what Joseph taught or how he lived.
How could “God” allow plural marriage when the very image of God is one male and ONE female?! Attributing polygamy to God or that the one true God would ever “allow” or “command” polygamy is probably the most non sensical thing I can think of. Can only be spoken by the truly ignorant.
@@jrtodd-br4zc Due to your ignorance of the facts, what Joseph did to and with many women and why he did these things is something that couldn't be less understood by you, nor does it appear you care to find out the actual history over your white washed version. Adoration / worship can cloud one's perception, I get it.
@@jrtodd-br4zc dude please read excerpts from William claytons diaries.
Yea there’s a reliable source…
I can no longer comment in any detail on this video to anyone as some of my comments are now being deleted.
@@jrtodd-br4zc yes, there are reliable sources backing up the fact that he had well over 20 wives and was sealed to them.
About the apologetic that "there are easier ways to get sex, you don't have to build a theology" ... in the movie the sting the conmen point out that the trick is to get the mark to give you the money in a context where they can't even think about trying to get it back ... this is similar. By using a theology to justify elicit sex everyone involved has a motivation to keep it secret if that's what the leaders are calling for.
If Joseph was just going to be a swinger, then what mechanism did he have to keep that out of the public eye? What is to stop his conquests or procurers from going public?
Besides building theology was the tool set that he had for getting what he wanted out of people ... so when you have a hammer everything looks like a nail.
We’ll said!
❤ I think "sunk cost fallacy" is why my mom won't hear/accept the lie that is Joseph and his church. It pains my heart.
Gerardo’s context around Helen Mar Kimball’s marriage is so important. The fact that her father Heber already had a plural wife that he knocked up beings context for why her mother was so disturbed and how it breaks all the excuses by apologists that it wasn’t about sex. Heber’s polygamy was about sex, and he gave his daughter to Joseph. Why would anybody, including her family believe it wasn’t going to be another sex. When her marriage also was for time and eternity. It wasn’t only a spiritual marriage. There is no reasonable expectation that it want about sex, especially given the context.
Being a convert, nothing was said about polygamy or Blacks and priesthood. And so I had a testimony of Joseph Smith by reading the Book of Mormon. So I accepted this as revelation. Where would I turn to otherwise. It's the Lord's True Church. Have ??'s especialy about episode on Paul Dunn, my Mission Pres. I wonder how he could've has the Lord's authority on calling him as a General Authority, but anyway we don't worship our leaders. We worship the Lord. A lot of times we automatically sustain new authorities in Gen"l conference. Makes me be more aware. Thank you!
I love Sandra Tanner. I also think she bears a striking resemblance to Charlie's mom from Always Sunny
If Sarah was "righteous" in giving Hagar to her husband AND the seed is rightous... why then are all the seed of Hagar not part of the righteous lds?
Are lds teens taught that polygamy is desirable in this life or the next life?
But Hagar is the mother of a key figure in Islam which also has plural marriage
Maybe polygamy was more widely discussed in my hometown since we were so close to Colorado City/Hildale/Centennial Park (and we all had close and distant family there, haha), but I remember being told whenever it came up that the first wife and the father of the new wife (if she was underage) had to give consent. I was also very aware of Joseph Smith's polygamy my entire life. I just gained a new perspective once I was out of the church about the coercive nature of a church leader approaching a faithful (often young) woman to marry him.
I am glad that you said the Mormon God appears to be a jerk. It seemed to be like that to me as well. However, I also think that of the God of the Bible, but it's colored by my LDS expierience...
I've started noticing when apologists aren't very confident about what they're saying like Dr Kate Holbrook in the video you're commenting on and Dr Kerry Muhlestein when he's talking about the Book of Abraham. They tend to almost stutter and have a hard time finding their words.
Polygamy was not the “only” thing Joseph Smith came up with to suit himself, as a never Mormon looking in… that would be everything. Joseph’s god has nothing to do with God.
Totally off topic, but I wish Ed Smart would come on your show and tell his story.
Me too Karen. FWIW, he is a friend.
@@mormonstories but I totally respect him taking his time. His poor family has had enough publicity for a lifetime.
He knew that God had a different solution , he trusted God completely! That was faith in God !
Also, though there is no excuse for the way early LDS leaders treated women. In at least this they were consistent with the culture in America which existed every where in every religions and even the laws of the land. It always blows my millennial daughters minds when I speak of my life for the first 35 years. Women couldn’t have credit in their own name. Couldn’t buy a car without a male member of her family co-signing, many many jobs and professions were closed to women. Prior to WWII women were chattel, first property of their fathers, then property of their husbands. It was a vastly different world. For my first three software engineering jobs I was the only women in my department two I was the first women ever, one had one prior women. My every day life was a constant mine field trying to do my job while facing a constant barrage of a kind of sexual harassment hazing it wouldn’t be believed today. And I had ZERO recourse management was just WAITING for proof women cannot be engineers. My daughters were appalled they asked was I still mad I said nah, I wasn’t mad 20 minutes after every despicable act. I just looked at it as a backward compliment, they were more and more threatened as I moved up the ranks of successfully completed projects.
Polygamy was illegal in America. Not the law of the land. I love it how true blue Mormons use history and culture of the time to justify a “prophets” nefarious behavior. You think he’d be giving them foresight or “revelations”, actually be ahead of the curve, but sadly they continue to sag behind on every issue (blacks, gays, women).
At what age now are children in the Church first taught about plural marriage? As a child in the 70's, I remember first hearing about it in Sunday School when I was around 10, which would have been '74. It immediately bothered me. I felt it couldn't possibly be the right doctrine.It sounded very wrong. I didn't think God would approve of it.. Little seeds of doubt planted in my mind at a young age. Though I was born into the Church, I was blessed with a questioning, skeptical mind. I think for myself and am so thankful I don't believe in the Mormon Church anymore! It is such a liberating feeling.
I had a Jewish friend who believed the interpretation that Abraham failed his test. I think a lot of the evidence for this interpretation comes from this story being the last time God talks directly to Abraham. Her sect of Judaism really believes in questioning commandments and cautioned heavily against following religious impulses blindly.
Christian pastor here: on the Abraham Test @41:00, the New Testament says that Abraham believed that God was going to resurrect Isaac from the dead, because he believed that Isaac was the miraculous son of God's promise. So even as he was raising the knife, Abraham did not believe God was asking him to lose his son.
In non-Mormon churches, Abraham WAS condemned for having a lack of faith. Not that he lost favor with God, but the interpretation of the passage generally goes that Abraham lacked the faith to believe that God could work a miracle and provide a child through Sara. Isaac, Sara's son, was the child favored by God.
In a Theology class that I took we had a guest speaker who was a Rabbi and told us about a discussion amongst Jewish scholars about the Abrahamic Test theory. The gist is that the “test” was about Abraham knowing what was right and wrong. He should have known that he was not supposed to kill his son. This interpretation speaks to a logical view of God, which is something I have never heard before. One piece of supporting evidence is that the Bible says that Sarah and Issac left Abraham. It can be believed that Sarah and Issac straight up left and never returned because they realized that Abraham was a delusional and homicidal person. Bringing up the Abrahamic test to validate polygamy is classic cherry picking and biblical literalism taken from a piece of literature that has been translated and manipulated many times over history.
I was aware of the Test theory, but I guess I need to reread Genesis because I definitely don’t remember Sarah and Isaac leaving👀
Joseph Smith invented a god according to his own lusts
Outstanding conversations. Bravo.
A masterclass in the difference between things God allows in the Bible versus things God actually calls good in the Bible
Bunch of men died during the trip to Utah so they gave the “extra women” to be in the care of the men that survived…. And that’s how it started lol…. Cheap version of what I was taught as a teen.
JD was on fire in this series. Hilarious sarcasm. "Can we trust William Clayton on this one? I'm guessing he's about to say something unfavorable to the church. What do you think Sandra?" hahah
Sandra is the OG
Such a good talk. Love it.
Thank you so much Sandra & everyone at Mormon Stories. Especially nice to see Jen. This was a heavy episode, for me anyway.
Replace “Joseph” &/or “Brigham” with “Warren” -little to no difference.
3:22:49 Considering the deep bench of performance talents in the exmo community, it shouldn’t be too difficult to find willing participants who have the skills to make a high-quality documentary Helen Mar Kimball. There’s lots of movies on Amazon made on very low budgets with less than A-list actresses & actors-Amazon will buy/offer almost everything.
A guy videoing himself snowshoeing & winter camping in the far-flung mountainous of New England while also looking for Sasquatch footprints-they bought TWO of these movies. Those are actually pretty good, but there’s plenty of others that are far less than B.
Has anyone read the book "A House Full of Females?" I'm a NeverMo, and stumbled on it by chance. It's an interesting book. It's taken from journals and diaries of polygamous pioneer wives in Utah. Check it out.
Did they take notes and conspire on how to service their man, who was one day to be God of his own planet and they breeder wives?
They will have to discount half of the D&C if Clayton is not legit 😂
Love it! Miss Carah on this episode!
Loved this episode!
Love this. Sandra and John are amazing. Too bad Jen is in it 🫠
Can’t imagine the horror Emma felt betrayal of his disregard to their marriage vowels ?
The basic idea of the D & C is that at that time, the Savior was micro-managing every aspect of Joseph's and other men's lives, virtually on a day-to-day basis. But now? Now he's evidently on a long vacation or off attending to some other world or something, because there's virtually no claiming currently that the Savior is dictating policy on a regular basis. Sorry, but where's the common sense in that? Isn't that a perfect example of blatant asinine nonsense? Here's my motto: asinine nonsense never was happiness.
Such a great point Joe!!!
The comment section is lit, but your comment is straight fire 🔥! Great point!!
Helen Kimball referred to herself as "one ewe lamb" in an 1881 letter. She's identifying herself with the "one ewe lamb" in this Bible passage:
But the thing that David had done displeased the LORD, 1 and the LORD sent Nathan to David. He came to him, and said to him, "There were two men in a certain city, the one rich and the other poor. 2 The rich man had very many flocks and herds; 3 but the poor man had nothing but one little ewe lamb, which he had bought. He brought it up, and it grew up with him and with his children; it used to eat of his meager fare, and drink from his cup, and lie in his bosom, and it was like a daughter to him. 4 Now there came a traveler to the rich man, and he was loath to take one of his own flock or herd to prepare for the wayfarer who had come to him, but he took the poor man's lamb, and prepared that for the guest who had come to him." 2nd Samuel 11:27-12:4.
Mormonism is all garbage. Root to stem.
Helen knew it for exactly what it was: she was sacrificed-to the benefit of everyone but herself. Heartwrenchingly sad.
PLEASE do a deep dive on Brimgham Young (or point me to one not endorsed by the church)❤️❤️❤️
The only way to truly discover the darkness of that man’s heart would be to ask the Lord, but I wouldn’t recommend asking. If you get the answer, it will shock you senseless. I recommend focusing on positive things. My recommendation would be to start with the lectures on faith.
Commenting on the consent aspect of the podcast:
Absolutely it is not consent for an adult to have a sexual relationship with a child/teen. Exactly, their brains are not developed and they are so prone to manipulation. What Joseph was doing is called grooming. Not only was he grooming the girls but also grooming the parents. Something that predetors are excellent at. It is why it angers me when people talk about child prostitution. It gives the illusion of consent. It is ALWAYS sexual abuse and is ALWAYS rape.