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You missed the Precurser/Protogenitor/Preserver (sometimes called the same group) that created most humanoid life in the galaxy that Picard and several people from other powers uncovers a message from. And there's the fun theory that the ENTIRE ST Universe(s) are a far distant future where humanity eventually became the Preservers who made several recreations of Earth...potentially, they also became other species such as the Q (Which would be an explanation for why Q and a few other Q are so interested in humanity).
I'm honestly baffled that so many people thought Star Trek was supposed to be our exact specific future and not a hypothetical "wouldn't it be great if we all just got along?" fantastical future and then proceeded to be disappointed that the Eugenics Wars and World War 3 did not happen exactly when it did in the show in our reality. That's some next level delusion.
well there is the old theory that Roddenberry was a time traveler who came back to make a hopeful show about his past to inspire us to be better to strive for that future and unfortunately we got the Pronoun Wars rather than Eugenics.
"disappointed" that billions didn't die and all our lives weren't profoundly disrupted? I do not think that word means what you think it means. "unfortunately" we got the Pronoun Wars rather than Eugenics ?? Cuisin, the Eugenics wars would kill hundreds of millions [maybe billions]. the pronoun wars have not cost one single life. We are quite fortunate to live in a more peaceful universe than Roddenberry's Trek universe. ...which was notably far more peaceful than the Berman-Trek universe ... which was in turn more peaceful than the JJ-verse. I for one am ready for a return to a more peaceful version like Roddenberry's... ar maybe an even more peaceful one thats more in line with reality. This constant glorification of hyperviolence is exhausting...and unrealistic.
which would be well and good except that Every Series since TOS, for Budgetary, creative or Soap-Box-y reasons, finds a Time Travel Contrivance to send (a Member of) the crew to the 'Present day" of when the series filmed
There's always the potential that Star Trek is an even further distant future, there's an interesting theory that combines the large number of Earths that appear in the Star Trek universe with the preservers...they're some future form of humanity that, essentially, recreated the past which led to the entire universe issue.
@@TJ52359 I don't remember that happening in star trek deep space 9. They did go to 2024 and there are some really creepy similarities with what's going on in San Francisco and what has been going on. But that was made back and I believe 95. It's kind of funny because things are going to go exactly the opposite of the way they did in those star trek episodes. The inbalances in our society will get corrected but not in the direction they didn't star trek
My ultimate headcanon reconcile is that Gene Roddenberry was a marooned Admiral from the 29th Century Starfleet... and he just decided to hell with the temporal prime directive, he wanted to make money and have fun. This is simply an in universe solution to ours being the same... not an explanation or an endpoint or anyting...
I agree, also my head canon jokingly too, but that we are the mirror universe and was trapped here and created the utopian scifi show to stop our inevitable future
Don't forgot making sure all the females wear mini-skirts. Gene: "It is a key and deeply fundermental component of this series that things are shown this way. To do otherwise means loosing what makes the work stand for what is important."
@@Squato Is there something wrong with women wearing mini skirts? Context is King, and in the 1960s mini skirts were a symbol of liberation from a stodgier time when women had to wear long skirts to cover themselves up, and the older generation then found them scandalous. Perhaps all those old fogies are now reincarnated and they brought their old fashioned prudishness with them into this life?
Nah, it is a joke about how he had a rep for doing things like that (see them showing up even during TNG, and then later making the men have them as well, when tastes had changed). There has been jokes about this with him for decades. More so since other Gene did the actual creative stuff that people liked.@@TheIrvy
So essentially the Star Trek universe had a dark past because it didn't have a TV franchise that demonstrated an ideal futuristic utopia to future leaders and scientists, likely because it was seen as too derivative of Captain Proton.
Idea for future video: a list or exploration of erased timelines in Star Trek, first example to come to mind is the episode in DS9 where they find a planet of their descendants
Where it's gets weird is Carbon Creek. Watching I Love Lucy, the Godmother of Trek, and Tripp brings up the Twilight Zone in that episode, which means most of the primary actors of TOS are now cannon in Trek. Star Trek the tv show comes really close to being cannon within itself.
When you ask did Star Trek exist in the Star Trek universe, it makes me wonder if other franchises existed. Did Star Wars exist in the Star Trek universe? Did they ever watch Return of the Jedi on movie night on the NX 01? Did Warhammer 40K exist in the Trek Universe? Did O'Brien and Bashir ever take a break from the Alamo and do an Skitari vs Alpha Legion battle?
Gene Roddenberry's role in the Star Trek Universe would have been to create his magnum opus, _Andromeda Ascendant,_ which got cancelled after its first two seasons but restored for a third after a massive fan write-in campaign. Much of the show's appeal was the short-skirted uniform "Rommie" wore.
I always go back to comic books with its usually "elastic" timeline to account for it always being "now" despite all the history the audience is aware of in regards to these decades long franchises whose original conception in no way took into account that mass audiences would still want ever more from these entertainments. At some point Tony Stark as a character needs a frwsh coat of continuity paint because if you want him to be a hip tuned into modern culture, relatively youthful character then he can't have also had an origin tied to the American involvement in Vietnam. Same with Punisher. So that has been adjusted and frankly NOTHING has been lost. The characters are essentially the same. If Trek is to do more than just SURVIVE as a franchise, but actually thrive adjustments like what was seen in recent SNW episodes is probably what is needed.
Great video. One important aspect left out when discussing Assignment Earth which was critical to the plot: we never had orbiting nuclear platforms in space!!!
Glad you enjoyed the video! The implication of me starting with "Assignment Earth" in the analysis, though, is that it does indeed depict space activities that we were not engaged in at the time.
For me, the point of divergence is TOS' "The Naked Now". The Enterprise was supposed to be destroyed due to the planet's gravity well. Spock changed that by having the ship go back into the past, thus "time travel" was invented.
“I’ll take you home again, Kathleen.” The TOS episode was entitled “The Naked Time.” Although in my house, we call it: “The Undressed Time” for reasons of modesty. ;)
For the record, that was far from the first instance of time travel being invented in the Trek universe. the Guardian time portal said it had existed "since before your sun burned hot in space", which makes it more than 5 billion years old. There were other ancient examples, though none so far back
Honestly, I don't see this question ever getting solved as they like to slide the timeline to fit the story. However, I also don't think a specific point really matters.
@@subraxasAlas, there IS a stated reason: In an interview, Terry Matalas stated that they wanted SNW to feel as though it would be "our future", which are his words; furthermore stating they wanted this because they wanted it to feel just as possible for SNW to be our brighter future the same way TOS felt to audiences viewing it when it first aired. I get his point, though I'm not sure why they didn't take any story angles much closer to Greg Cox's work (without implying offensive ideas of how victims died). It drives me nuts to think that time supposedly bends well enough like a spring so that it makes no difference whether Khan is born in the 1950s or around 2010s... especially because the butterfly effects of such differing dates mean that incredibly different people would end up being Impregnated by Khan in different parts of history, such that would cause entirely different people to end up being fathered by Khan before he departs Earth for another planet. IMHO, it is far better to assume that something like Greg Cox's book happened and THEN the 20th-21st century Soong resurrected the Khan Project through the Noonian-Soong research institute; meaning that there were 2 Khans we didn't realise weren't 1 Khan due to the fragmentary nature of the post-WWIII documents of history. In other words, La'an Noonian-Singh could onky be a descendant of the first, TOS Khan, or the second, SNW Khan, but to mess with the timeline by making there be only one Khan who was born/created later would mean that whenever La'an returned to her future there'd be a different tineline result in which, at the very least, that Earth History would be different AND there wouldn't be a La'an Noonian-Singh.
@Treklosopher Well, as a matter of fact, TOS at this point is just straight up no longer consistent with what's called the "prime timeline" Doesn't mean it can't be enjoyed for what it is, the iconic series that jumpstarted this franchise we all love. It's still "canon," but the later shows have altered background lore
@@OrangeRiverright. I fully believe that the reasons of Temporal disturbances buys them time to essentially reboot the franchise as a form of fun retreading of much of the previous ground being covered differently, similarly to the Abramsverse but by taking a subtler route.
I am now and always have been a Star Trek fan. I’ve watched almost every show from every series and yet every time I watch one of your programs I am amazed at how much I didn’t know! Each one of your episodes is not only informative but extremely fun. Thank you for all you do and please keep up the great work.
I remember The Lieutenant. Reruns aired late at night when I was a wee lad. I'd stay up late and watch TV during summers off from school. Gary Lockwood went on to star in 2001: A Space Odyssey.😂
Well, to me, there are by now dozens of different timelines. All changed and altered by different time-travelling events throughout different episodes. The timeline of TNG/DS8 and Voy is not the same as the timeline of TOS, the timelines of LD, Pic, SNW, Disco, etc are all separate and different as well. There are overlaps like characters and their names, events, etc, but they are not shared in detail. The Eugenics wars from TOS happened in the 90s and was a savage open conflict. The Eugenics of SNW happened later and were not so open. The Eugenics of DS9 and Voy were in the 90s but rather hidden. All are timelines that are distinct and separate, but closely related.
In our universe, the creator of Buck Rogers was descended from someone abducted by the Skgarans. In the Trek timeline with him out of the picture someone independently comes up with the similar concept of Captain Proton. So whatever kept the Skgarans from abducting humans in our history (either not finding Earth or having no desire to enslave aliens) is the point of divergence.
When I was a kid, I wanted Star Trek to be a direct guide for our future. As an adult- I work in a Library call center We answer anything I once had a person call from within my library, less then 5 meters away from the help desk, asking where the keyboard was I said “well, every computer has a keyboard, did you ask the-“ “Oh, it’s a pull out, never mind” You…you called and sat thought the que for our department of 3 callers for the whole county, didn’t bother with the people 5 meters from you…only to realize you didn’t pull out the keyboard, and hung up on us? Your first thought, before even looking for your keyboard, was to wait in a help line? My faith in human ingenuity has never been lower.
The moment of divergence was the cancellation of TOS, which caused a space/time multi-universe split. Unfortunately for those of us in this timeline, we are living through the consequences of that error which was purposely created by time travelling Klingons and Romulans committing a hostile takeover of NBC stranding us in the dystopia we know as 2023. Now we clearly understand the wisdom and need for the Prime Directive.
We must already passed the Point of Divergence, as there are no "Sanctuary Districts " in America's city centres yet, but in the trekverse they were already well established in 2024.
Are There Any Other Supernatural Fans Who Also Love TOS? I Swear The Guy That Kirk,&,Spock Are Chasing Down in This Episode Looks so Much Like Mark Pellegrino,They’ve Gotta be Related Somehow,Right? Like Maybe He’s Mark’s Dad,or,Granddaddy,or,Maybe Mark Really is Luci,&,he Just Picked up Acting During His Immortality🤣 or,Maybe I’m Just Seeing Things,Who Knows What do You Guys Think?
It's important to distinguish between "events Star Trek inserts a fictional explanation for" and "events that definitely didn't happen in reality." I think if we discount closed time loops (Time's Arrow, Future's End e.g.) and the former cases (The 37s, Little Green Men e.g.) - some of which overlap - I think that the first definite event from Trek that definitely "steps on butterflies" that 100% didn't happen IRL is the Eugenics Wars. As much as I enjoyed Greg Cox's attempt to reconcile these events which allegedly happened during the 90s as being a shadow war in the excellent "Star Trek: The Eugenics Wars," the fact that they happened at all implies (a) advanced genetic manipulation going on ca 1970 at the latest in order for Khan to be an adult by 1990 and (b) that earth was readying interstellar sleeper-ships by ca 2000 in order for Botany Bay to happen. But then again, starting with Enterprise and continuing with Trek 2009, Discovery and SNW, the "established canon" is - and has been for some time - that Earth's history is pretty much a Wikipedia edit war. TOS occurred in an alternate timeline where we had warp drives and shields and transporters but computers, even 250 years from now, were still nothing more than IBM mainframes with voice interfaces. Maybe it's the original timeline where Henry Starling didn't introduce the first "isograted circuit" in 1967?
Ripples spread out. In the City on the Edge of Forever a man picks up McCoy's phaser and accidently commits suicide. Perhaps this had no long-term effects, but perhaps it changed something so important that the future was totally different from what it would have been.
The episode "The 37's" also has Nogami as one of the abductees. He is an Imperial Japanese Soldiers standing there in full military reagalia without anyone even flinching. Especially not Paris, the 20th century buff. 1937 is also the year the Nanjing massacre took place. Was he complicit? Does nobody care? Imagine a nazi soldier standing there without anyone reacting. This episode is the best example of how Star Trek treats the Japanese way different than the Germans. Name me one German character on the level of Sulu or Keiko. I can name your 3 episodes of Aliens wearing nazi uniforms.
OK I have two answers to this question. First of all, the Star Trek timeline is a fictional timeline and it should always be separate from our timeline. It was a mistake for Trek writers to move the Eugenics War out of the 1990s. That is when it happened in the Star Trek timeline. It needs to have remained that, and it doesn’t matter if that didn’t happen in our timeline because Star Trek as a fictional timeline. However, to answer your question. Within universe, I know exactly when the timeline changed. This, of course, assumes that the Star Trek timeline is our timeline. The only thing that could’ve happened that would have allowed for a deviation from our timeline from the Trek timeline is: During the episode “The City on the Edge of Forever” (in 1930) when that wino in the street disintegrated himself with McCoy’s phaser! That sent a ripple in time that allowed for the creation of Captain Proton and for the Amelia Earhart disappearance. There’s your answer! When I first watched that episode, when I was twelve, I remember at the end of the episode the Guardian of Forever explaining that: "All is as it was." but I then started screaming at the TV and saying, “but what about the guy who got disintegrated? How is that like it was????” Now I know. Now it all makes sense. That event...that sacrifice...actually led to the creation of the entire Star Trek universe. :)
That's what I always thought but how do we know that the homeless guy wouldn't have died anyway? He wasn't in good shape: he could have gone at any time. Thenz of course, TGOF could have had limited ability to restore the dead guy to life. Then there is the possibility that it was a predestination paradox, a stable time loop. The homeless guy always did die, Kirk+Spock always did arrive in 1930s Chicago. There was no 'first time around'; the loop and alternative timeline were and ate always there
I have a theory that Vulcans visited Earth during the Anglo-Saxon. Period. Elves closely resemble Vulcans. They are also associated with magic and can disappear. Vulcans had this technology during human antiquity. This is of course, in the Star Trek universe.
In my head-canon, the Star Trek universe had a highly popular sci-fi series that ran through the late 60s into the 70s/80s, that fill the role of Star Trek in our history. It was called "Galaxy Quest." :D
As a kid I wanted to believe Star Trek was a "real" look at our future. I was bothered that the date of the Eugenics War was approaching but there was no mention of Kahn on the news. I liked the idea that it was a more clandestine activity related to all of the smaller conflicts going on. As an adult I can understand that Trek is a totally fictional world. If they say there was a Eugenics War in 1996, I can accept that as an in universe fact as much as I can that there was a Dominion war in the 2370s. On the other hand, I do appreciate that they are addressing all of the in-universe inconsistencies as being the result of time travel shenanigans.
The only real historic divergence I can extrapolate is with the parents of Khan. At some point during their life they started working on a project to create a super human, and gave birth to him. Since Khan was probably no more than 45-50 at the time of his leaving Earth, and that was in 1996, I believe, he must have been born between 1946, and 1951. In Star Trek: Into Darkness they say he was born in 1959, but this too was an alternate history, so I'm not going to use it. Given what was going on before 1946, I'd speculate that his parents were attached to the Nazis, probably scientists exploring super human eugenics projects, maybe they were studying in Germany, and work for them. They were probably of true Aryan descent, the peoples who originated in Iran and the northern India regions. Surviving the war, they perfected their theory, and gave birth to Khan. The work they did for Germany having aided their own ambitions. Hitler probably supported their work in order to use it to create perfect super human Aryans, but with the end of the war, and Germany losing, Khan's parents returned to their home in India, or where ever it is that Khan originated. The eugenics project of Khan's parents is the first truly di9vergent historic fact in the Star Trek Universe that makes a difference.
@@subraxas is this canon? i have always presumed they built and traveled in starships under their own volition. sorry the story has been run down to another abduction troupe.
The star trek novel Ishmeal by Barbara Hambly which takes place largely at the end of the 19th century is said by many to be the point of divergence. (Caused by spock accidentally time traveling) it's a great read. I liked the book a lot.
IMO, the point of divergence may be something not recorded or a set of many things that may only be partially documented. For example, the nuclear space platform launched by the USA in "Assignment Earth" would have required many years of development and funding before it would be ready for deployment. Add in possible similar devices from the Soviet Union and others, it gets murky. In the end, Star Trek is just a set of stories and doesn't really matter about "canon".
Did Trek even mention Neil Armstrong? Robert A. Heinlein classified his alternate universes according to who the first man on the moon was. Assignment Earth was Apollo 6, Apollo 12 hasn't happened yet, it could be someone else who gets the honor. Possibly even our good Air Force captain, as USAF supplied many astronauts!
This all reminds me that I want to see a series about when Data was removed from the Enterprise for 1 week to take part in several secret time travelling missions. He must go back to investigate potential time-line crimes on Earth but in every episode he would mostly end up fighting bikers then riding around on a motorcycle, wearing sunglasses and fighting more bikers. Just the opening scene of T2 but it lasts for 3, twelve episode seasons. It would be called "Dave's..." (I'm Dave) "Dave's Science Fiction Heaven" and I dont even want any money for the concept because I'm all about the art.
I wish they'd just stick with the original sequence of events. I think it would be fun if we got to see an alternate version of Earth after the 1960s. Apart from anything else, they currently have to ignore the way real life history has been influenced by Star Trek. I refer you to the elaborate theory as to how the hiring of Jeri Ryan for Voyager indirectly led to the Obama presidency.
I don't think I've ever thought about Roddenberry himself existing in the Star Trek universe lol. It's a fun idea to consider though. On another note, I don't mind that the timeline doesn't match up with reality myself. Thank you for this rather interesting exploration of the Trek timeline. God be with you out there everybody. ✝️ :)
The divergence between the two time lines has to be something that prevented WWIII in the 1990s. That is most likely to be the success of the Gary 7 mission. If the tv show would have been adopted, they could have shown how ww3 was prevented.
Placing my bet on just pre-WW2, at least by September 1, 1939. Three technical divergences stand out in the Trekverse. 1. It has more advanced space flight capabilities than ours. (The DY-100 Botany Bay is launched in the mid 1990's. 2. More advanced cryo. (ST:TNG found a stray satellite with frozen people from the early 21st out yonder.) 3. More advanced genetics. Khan Noonian Singh would have to have been born in the 1950s to take over in the mid 1990's. Somehow, Edith Keeler's life and death did affect the timeline, by creating the Trekverse and perhaps the Terran Empire also. Or, the Temporal Cold War affected lots more than noted. Also IDIC may apply to timelines as well.
I asked this question a couple years back in a popular r/daystrominstitute post, and there were some good answers. The velcro one was a common answer. But someone actually proposed Roddenberry's plane crash (specifically the third one he was in i believe, while deadheading/jumpseating). In the prime timeline Roddenberry dies and never presents his hopeful vision of the future. Humanity never aspires towards it and you get the darker earth history of the Prime timeline. Eugenics wars, WWIII, all that. Someone on a podcast with one of Roddenberry's.. kid? Grandkid? Forget exactly what the relation was- read him both my prompt and that answer. It was pretty touching.
Good video, the TOS timeline is not our timeline and its probably no the TNG timeline. The divergence may have occurred as a result of one of the two TOS visits to the past, or perhaps even the airing of the star trek series which means Gene may have been a time travellers who was trying to avoid a bad future.
04:56 "Did Gene [Roddenberry] exist in the Star Trek Universe?' I'd say it depends upon the writers and how they would choose to shoe-horn them in. I'm writing a Gilligan's Island fan fiction. IN it, Ginger Grant has a REASON for travelling to Hawaii in the first place. She is going to screen test for a sit-com about a movie star stuck on an island with some other goofy people. She, for reasons [read the fic when I release it] loses out the role to another actress whom she only identifies as "Tina". The sit com happens AND after the castaways are rescued they become aware of it [background, NOT really integral to the story] SO, the "Gilligan's Island" TV show DOES exist within the universe of Gilligan's Island. It's just never named, only referred to and inferred, but NEVER detailed. MAYBE it's easier when writing comedy, BUT i see NO reason where Gene could not exist, NOR any reason why he could not be responsible for a ground breaking sci-fi TV series that MAY find some parallels within the "Reality" of the Star Trek Universe. You have to admit, THAT would make a h*ll of an episode.
I can accept the original timeline. But I do like First Contacts take on it. Since Enterprise carried on from it. So I understand why they push it forward for new shows. But for me First Contact is my headcanon for the start of Star Trek universe.
How about the TNG episode Hotel Royale, where they found a book from the 20th century named Hotel Royale by Todd Matthews. The book does not exist in the real world.
The entire universe of "Star Trek" is of course our far future... REALLY far future where all humans are essentially "Q-like" beings and the various Star Trek "universes" are simply "fan-fic" threads on some future forum where all the Star Trek fans make their own reality :)
I wouldn't necessarily count Captain Proton. Lost Media is a thing, especially in the era that serials were made. There are a lot of movies, serials, books, comics, etc. that are lost to time from this era. Some we know existed, some we have a hint may have existed, some at best are rumour, and some we have definitely lost without a hint. We could live in the timeline where someone working on Voyager heard someone who was a teen or child at the time talk about it, and little ramblings like that are all that exist. Not enough that anyone ever clued in to investigate. I mean...no this probably did not happen. Captain Proton is clearly royalty free Flash Gordon and Buck Rogers mashed together. You mention a difference being the existence of Star Trek in our universe (as a tv show.) This is an area I think about often; media that has had huge impacts on our culture, takes place in the future (compared to when it was created). How is the world difference in the Trek universe without the existence of Star Trek?
For the large part, I don't think it really matters. On the other hand, I happen to think the divergence would have to have started in the 1960's since the Eugenic Wars were fought in the 1990's which means that Khan Noonien Singh and his associates would've had to have been created at last three decades before. So I think the late 1960's is a good point for an initial divergence point.
I've always thought of Star Trek as the History of the Future, but it's a bit weird of people to try to fit WWIII into the 20th century. Thanks for a great video.
I will always appreciate how the audio on your videos is louder and uses more Headroom than most every other TH-camr that I ever look at. Thank you for making your videos listen-to-abel
When confronted with divergence from our real timeline in science fiction back before the internet, I always just groused that writers should just push all future dates forward a couple thousand years, problem solved. For my money, I especially have no confidence in the social evolution of future cultures happening in just 2 or 3 hundred years...yeah, right.
In "All Good Things" Q lists a date for the start of life that we now know to be inaccurate. So then. Anyhow, great video and thank you for talking about the ickiness of using recent tragedy for such a trivial purpose. Sci-fi can shed light and meaning onto real world tragedies, but just using it as a data point -- overwriting the deeply complex real world reasons why people die in these events -- seems to minimize the suffering. I can't imagine how I'd feel if a parent died in a terrorist attack and it was used this way.
I think in reality the Greek gods being real or not might have been the biggest change. Who knows what influence that would have had on one of the most influential cultures in human history. The political, religious, linguistic and cultural composition of eruope and the middle east and even north africa would be very different.
Well the thing about that is, since it's so long ago, them being real or not doesn't have much bearing on our everyday lives (except for the fact that in real life they're pure mythology). That's not so much a "divergence" in the noticeable fashion.
The true divergence occurs at some point prior to the Eugenics Wars, and presumably prior to the episode "Assignment Earth." A) for Khan and the other eugenic "augments" to exist, they would have to have been born around 20-30+ years prior to the timeframe of the Eugenics Wars as stated in "Space Seed." (I don't see how you retcon Spock and Kirk mistaking the early/mid 21st century for the "1990s" without actually changing the timeline. The simple fact is they set the Eugenics Wars too early in the script, but in 1967 the "90s" seemed generations away... which of course it wasn't). Anyway, that means a whole bunch of scientists the world over decided to practice eugenics and genetic tinkering (and presumably had been doing so for more than just one generation) starting at some point in the early/mid 20th century. Which... okay... eugenics was a thing, yes... but the technology to do the kind of genetic manipulation necessary to produce something like Khan is something we're only just now MAYBE becoming capable of. Some kind of "secret science" MIGHT have existed earlier... but that's not hugely plausible. So we're already looking at a 20th century that doesn't fully match our own. B) Okay, we can maybe buy that the US and "other powers" were secretly putting nuclear weapons in orbit, despite treaties to the contrary in our real world. But in "Assignment Earth" they use a Saturn V to do so. Which of course was because, in the real world, that was THE big rocket at the time and immediately recognizable... and good stock footage in color would have been available (and if you could afford it, you could even send a small second unit team down to Cape Canaveral to get some shots... but this is 1960s TOS we're talking about, who didn't have that budget). Anyway... using a Saturn V to launch ANYTHING other than designated Apollo spacecraft would not have been possible, as there were only so many Saturn V's built, and each one was allocated. ALL were used in the Apollo shots, until the remaining Apollo missions were scrubbed by Nixon in the early 70s. The only remaining Saturn Vs were used for Skylab and I believe the Apollo/Soyuz mission. The last one, as I recall, is the one that sits outside of the Cape Canaveral building. So where would this OTHER Saturn V have come from? Built in secret? But it sure as hell wasn't launched in secret. It's right there at Cape Canaveral for all to see. Okay, maybe not a HUGE divergence... but then it suggests something else: C) Getting back to Khan, he and his fellow "supermen" leave Earth in a "DY-100 Class" spacecraft. In the 1990s. No such thing exists nor does it yet exist. It's clearly a relatively sophisticated spacecraft (at least for its time) and is said, by Spock, to be one of earth's most advanced at the time. Where the hell does this thing come from? WELL. Clearly we're already looking at a timeline where space tech has already surpassed that of our real world. Extra Saturn Vs in existence in 1968; the DY-100 being an established, presumably interplanetary vessel in the 1990s... and then Sean Geoffrey Christopher heading up a mission to Saturn at some point in the 1990s or early 2000s, as he's said not to be born yet in what is 1969, but we can safely presume he WAS born in the 70s or 80s, and therefore would have gone to Saturn somewhere around the end of the 90s or so. Already a huge divergence itself. There are subsequent examples from TNG etc. that point to a FAR more sophisticated and advanced space travel technology than what we currently have. It seems like we're maybe 50 years (or more?) behind the established technology progression established by Star Trek.
This bringa up so many questions I hadn't thought of before. I sort of thought on similar notion; in comics Marvel, DC and Fawcett comics existed in their own universes and had similar but slightly different versions of the comics, cartoons, etc that exist in the real world. Julie Swartze of DC existed in-universe too, at least on Earth-one, but as a failed comic book creator. So sort of thought along these notions. But now Ive so many new questions based on this line of thinking. Did Mark Twain exist in the Tom Sawyer universe? Was he famous, but just for every non-Sawyer-related work? Was he a failed writer or still a newspaperman? I wouldn't be surprised if Twain himself addressed it (tongue thoroughly planted in cheek, no doubt). But it's especially a question (the lives artists' dopplegangers within their fictional works) with writers, etc whose work shaped the medium and eventually society. Very cool question. Very cool video premise. Wisgph there was a whole series devoted to it.
to your Twain analogy.. Twain's Books were Published between 1876 and 1895, and set in the 1840s (when Twain himself would have been 5-15) a case could be made that in-Universe little Sammy Clemons lived down the road and either witnessed his antics or heard Stories about that Cool Big Kid Tommy Sawyer (or some such and changed the names to protect the innocent)
I’m of the opinion that the CBS Trek created it’s own time lines. CBS has spawned at least 3 different timelines if not more. So as far as I’m concerned- I could care less if their Shows match TOD, TNG, DS9… PICARD made at least two maybe three time lines, Discovery at least two then Brave New Worlds has at least two - not even going to mention Lower Decks which is suppose to be post TNG crossover with pre TOS Brave New Worlds? CBS just is a mess
If Doctor Spock was to ask the Enterprise's computer "What was the most important and influential science-fiction television franchise of the late 20th century / early 21st century?", what answer would he get?
I really like your short analysis of the events of Assignment Earth.. it is very similar to my own little write up l did bout it on the Memory Alpha website yeah bout a dozen or so years ago. Yeah the original series almost hit the nail on the head with that one! The fact that the nukes being launched into orbit in the Trek version of history were something unknown to the general public seems to be confirmed not only by Kirk's comments at the end of the episode. But also by Gary Seven's statement to Roberta shortly after he meets her that the nuclear weapons being launched are "very secret devises vital to the security of this nation!"
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Why would I want something made by a racist like JonTron?
You missed the Precurser/Protogenitor/Preserver (sometimes called the same group) that created most humanoid life in the galaxy that Picard and several people from other powers uncovers a message from.
And there's the fun theory that the ENTIRE ST Universe(s) are a far distant future where humanity eventually became the Preservers who made several recreations of Earth...potentially, they also became other species such as the Q (Which would be an explanation for why Q and a few other Q are so interested in humanity).
I understand that you need sponsors, but this is an outright scam.
@@wearegeek tell me captain virtue signalling, how is it an "outright scam"?
I'm honestly baffled that so many people thought Star Trek was supposed to be our exact specific future and not a hypothetical "wouldn't it be great if we all just got along?" fantastical future and then proceeded to be disappointed that the Eugenics Wars and World War 3 did not happen exactly when it did in the show in our reality. That's some next level delusion.
Well when you’re a kid it seemed great
I think too many people live in a fantastic state. And i don't mean that in a positive light
well there is the old theory that Roddenberry was a time traveler who came back to make a hopeful show about his past to inspire us to be better to strive for that future and unfortunately we got the Pronoun Wars rather than Eugenics.
I wanted the Eugenics wars, all I got was Mc Hammer and Vanillia Ice!!
"disappointed" that billions didn't die and all our lives weren't profoundly disrupted? I do not think that word means what you think it means.
"unfortunately" we got the Pronoun Wars rather than Eugenics ?? Cuisin, the Eugenics wars would kill hundreds of millions [maybe billions]. the pronoun wars have not cost one single life. We are quite fortunate to live in a more peaceful universe than Roddenberry's Trek universe.
...which was notably far more peaceful than the Berman-Trek universe ... which was in turn more peaceful than the JJ-verse.
I for one am ready for a return to a more peaceful version like Roddenberry's... ar maybe an even more peaceful one thats more in line with reality. This constant glorification of hyperviolence is exhausting...and unrealistic.
The Captain Proton jetpack, helmet, and jacket mounted controller was originally used in the 1955 Commando Cody: Sky Marshal of the Universe serial.
I am and always have been fine with Star Trek being in an alternate timeline to ours, our histories don’t have to match exactly.
@martychisnall,I agree .
Except for the whole Irish reunification, of course.
which would be well and good except that Every Series since TOS, for Budgetary, creative or Soap-Box-y reasons, finds a Time Travel Contrivance to send (a Member of) the crew to the 'Present day" of when the series filmed
There's always the potential that Star Trek is an even further distant future, there's an interesting theory that combines the large number of Earths that appear in the Star Trek universe with the preservers...they're some future form of humanity that, essentially, recreated the past which led to the entire universe issue.
@@TJ52359 I don't remember that happening in star trek deep space 9. They did go to 2024 and there are some really creepy similarities with what's going on in San Francisco and what has been going on. But that was made back and I believe 95. It's kind of funny because things are going to go exactly the opposite of the way they did in those star trek episodes. The inbalances in our society will get corrected but not in the direction they didn't star trek
My ultimate headcanon reconcile is that Gene Roddenberry was a marooned Admiral from the 29th Century Starfleet... and he just decided to hell with the temporal prime directive, he wanted to make money and have fun. This is simply an in universe solution to ours being the same... not an explanation or an endpoint or anyting...
I agree, also my head canon jokingly too, but that we are the mirror universe and was trapped here and created the utopian scifi show to stop our inevitable future
@@MichaelKnaepen That would explain all the goatees.
Don't forgot making sure all the females wear mini-skirts.
Gene: "It is a key and deeply fundermental component of this series that things are shown this way. To do otherwise means loosing what makes the work stand for what is important."
@@Squato Is there something wrong with women wearing mini skirts? Context is King, and in the 1960s mini skirts were a symbol of liberation from a stodgier time when women had to wear long skirts to cover themselves up, and the older generation then found them scandalous. Perhaps all those old fogies are now reincarnated and they brought their old fashioned prudishness with them into this life?
Nah, it is a joke about how he had a rep for doing things like that (see them showing up even during TNG, and then later making the men have them as well, when tastes had changed). There has been jokes about this with him for decades. More so since other Gene did the actual creative stuff that people liked.@@TheIrvy
DS9's portrayal of Americans cities in the 2020s is pretty spot on. Seemed crazy in the 90s to think they'd end up as hell holes but here we are.
not far from Blade Runner
blame 50 years of suburban sprawl
IMO, it didn't diverge -- it paralleled ours, but it was never at any point identical. Same thing as with the Fallout franchise.
So essentially the Star Trek universe had a dark past because it didn't have a TV franchise that demonstrated an ideal futuristic utopia to future leaders and scientists, likely because it was seen as too derivative of Captain Proton.
captain proton is easily the best part of voyager
Idea for future video: a list or exploration of erased timelines in Star Trek, first example to come to mind is the episode in DS9 where they find a planet of their descendants
For anyone who wants to see what happens when Starfleet becomes aware of Star Trek in the 1960s, check out REDSHIRTS by John Scalzi.
There are some earleir examples too. I forget the names.
The point of divergence is The Big Bang.
That show really slowed down human development.
Where it's gets weird is Carbon Creek. Watching I Love Lucy, the Godmother of Trek, and Tripp brings up the Twilight Zone in that episode, which means most of the primary actors of TOS are now cannon in Trek. Star Trek the tv show comes really close to being cannon within itself.
Yeah, they could have made Star Trek cannon and said “look at how accurately this piece of 20th century entertainment predicted the future!”
@@jasonwick Thats why they don't. it would be impossible to reconcile a depiction that accurate without bending the universe into a pretzel-knot. .
The Lieutenant got picked up for 3 seasons, Desilu collapse. Point of divergence.
When you ask did Star Trek exist in the Star Trek universe, it makes me wonder if other franchises existed. Did Star Wars exist in the Star Trek universe? Did they ever watch Return of the Jedi on movie night on the NX 01? Did Warhammer 40K exist in the Trek Universe? Did O'Brien and Bashir ever take a break from the Alamo and do an Skitari vs Alpha Legion battle?
No, none of those existed, but "Galaxy Quest" ran for seven seasons.
Gene Roddenberry's role in the Star Trek Universe would have been to create his magnum opus, _Andromeda Ascendant,_ which got cancelled after its first two seasons but restored for a third after a massive fan write-in campaign. Much of the show's appeal was the short-skirted uniform "Rommie" wore.
I always go back to comic books with its usually "elastic" timeline to account for it always being "now" despite all the history the audience is aware of in regards to these decades long franchises whose original conception in no way took into account that mass audiences would still want ever more from these entertainments.
At some point Tony Stark as a character needs a frwsh coat of continuity paint because if you want him to be a hip tuned into modern culture, relatively youthful character then he can't have also had an origin tied to the American involvement in Vietnam. Same with Punisher.
So that has been adjusted and frankly NOTHING has been lost. The characters are essentially the same.
If Trek is to do more than just SURVIVE as a franchise, but actually thrive adjustments like what was seen in recent SNW episodes is probably what is needed.
Great video. One important aspect left out when discussing Assignment Earth which was critical to the plot: we never had orbiting nuclear platforms in space!!!
Glad you enjoyed the video! The implication of me starting with "Assignment Earth" in the analysis, though, is that it does indeed depict space activities that we were not engaged in at the time.
For me, the point of divergence is TOS' "The Naked Now". The Enterprise was supposed to be destroyed due to the planet's gravity well. Spock changed that by having the ship go back into the past, thus "time travel" was invented.
“I’ll take you home again, Kathleen.” The TOS episode was entitled “The Naked Time.” Although in my house, we call it: “The Undressed Time” for reasons of modesty. ;)
For the record, that was far from the first instance of time travel being invented in the Trek universe. the Guardian time portal said it had existed "since before your sun burned hot in space", which makes it more than 5 billion years old. There were other ancient examples, though none so far back
Honestly, I don't see this question ever getting solved as they like to slide the timeline to fit the story. However, I also don't think a specific point really matters.
@@subraxasAlas, there IS a stated reason:
In an interview, Terry Matalas stated that they wanted SNW to feel as though it would be "our future", which are his words; furthermore stating they wanted this because they wanted it to feel just as possible for SNW to be our brighter future the same way TOS felt to audiences viewing it when it first aired.
I get his point, though I'm not sure why they didn't take any story angles much closer to Greg Cox's work (without implying offensive ideas of how victims died).
It drives me nuts to think that time supposedly bends well enough like a spring so that it makes no difference whether Khan is born in the 1950s or around 2010s... especially because the butterfly effects of such differing dates mean that incredibly different people would end up being Impregnated by Khan in different parts of history, such that would cause entirely different people to end up being fathered by Khan before he departs Earth for another planet.
IMHO, it is far better to assume that something like Greg Cox's book happened and THEN the 20th-21st century Soong resurrected the Khan Project through the Noonian-Soong research institute; meaning that there were 2 Khans we didn't realise weren't 1 Khan due to the fragmentary nature of the post-WWIII documents of history.
In other words, La'an Noonian-Singh could onky be a descendant of the first, TOS Khan, or the second, SNW Khan, but to mess with the timeline by making there be only one Khan who was born/created later would mean that whenever La'an returned to her future there'd be a different tineline result in which, at the very least, that Earth History would be different AND there wouldn't be a La'an Noonian-Singh.
@Treklosopher Well, as a matter of fact, TOS at this point is just straight up no longer consistent with what's called the "prime timeline"
Doesn't mean it can't be enjoyed for what it is, the iconic series that jumpstarted this franchise we all love. It's still "canon," but the later shows have altered background lore
@@OrangeRiverright. I fully believe that the reasons of Temporal disturbances buys them time to essentially reboot the franchise as a form of fun retreading of much of the previous ground being covered differently, similarly to the Abramsverse but by taking a subtler route.
I am now and always have been a Star Trek fan. I’ve watched almost every show from every series and yet every time I watch one of your programs I am amazed at how much I didn’t know! Each one of your episodes is not only informative but extremely fun. Thank you for all you do and please keep up the great work.
I remember The Lieutenant. Reruns aired late at night when I was a wee lad. I'd stay up late and watch TV during summers off from school. Gary Lockwood went on to star in 2001: A Space Odyssey.😂
Thinking Q dipping his fingers into Earth's primordial soup could've caused a butterfly effect.
Well, to me, there are by now dozens of different timelines. All changed and altered by different time-travelling events throughout different episodes.
The timeline of TNG/DS8 and Voy is not the same as the timeline of TOS, the timelines of LD, Pic, SNW, Disco, etc are all separate and different as well. There are overlaps like characters and their names, events, etc, but they are not shared in detail. The Eugenics wars from TOS happened in the 90s and was a savage open conflict. The Eugenics of SNW happened later and were not so open. The Eugenics of DS9 and Voy were in the 90s but rather hidden.
All are timelines that are distinct and separate, but closely related.
Without Amelia Earhart's crash, the Coconut Crab civilization that will eventually overthrow humanity would never have a chance to arise.
9:34 POWER UP! THE DEATH! RAY!!!!! Raise the lightning shield! Lol
In our universe, the creator of Buck Rogers was descended from someone abducted by the Skgarans. In the Trek timeline with him out of the picture someone independently comes up with the similar concept of Captain Proton. So whatever kept the Skgarans from abducting humans in our history (either not finding Earth or having no desire to enslave aliens) is the point of divergence.
2:40 congratulations on the raid sponsorship. It's official you're a youtuber now.
Hahaha thank you! It is a rite of passage for sure
@@OrangeRiveralso thank you for putting that Don Lemon bit in I had to Google it because I didn't believe it was real!!!
LMAO
In the Star Trek universe Gener Roddenberry created the much vaunted television series named Star Truck
The 1930s sounds reasonable, as it's also when that spooky Time-Doughnut rigged a causal loop to force the birth of the Federation
When I was a kid, I wanted Star Trek to be a direct guide for our future. As an adult-
I work in a Library call center
We answer anything
I once had a person call from within my library, less then 5 meters away from the help desk, asking where the keyboard was
I said “well, every computer has a keyboard, did you ask the-“
“Oh, it’s a pull out, never mind”
You…you called and sat thought the que for our department of 3 callers for the whole county, didn’t bother with the people 5 meters from you…only to realize you didn’t pull out the keyboard, and hung up on us?
Your first thought, before even looking for your keyboard, was to wait in a help line?
My faith in human ingenuity has never been lower.
The moment of divergence was the cancellation of TOS, which caused a space/time multi-universe split. Unfortunately for those of us in this timeline, we are living through the consequences of that error which was purposely created by time travelling Klingons and Romulans committing a hostile takeover of NBC stranding us in the dystopia we know as 2023. Now we clearly understand the wisdom and need for the Prime Directive.
We must already passed the Point of Divergence, as there are no "Sanctuary Districts " in America's city centres yet, but in the trekverse they were already well established in 2024.
Are There Any Other Supernatural Fans Who Also Love TOS?
I Swear The Guy That Kirk,&,Spock Are Chasing Down in This Episode Looks so Much Like Mark Pellegrino,They’ve Gotta be Related Somehow,Right?
Like Maybe He’s Mark’s Dad,or,Granddaddy,or,Maybe Mark Really is Luci,&,he Just Picked up Acting During His Immortality🤣
or,Maybe I’m Just Seeing Things,Who Knows
What do You Guys Think?
we need a temporal cold war show, star trek touched on several times that events have changed multiple times they're aware of in universe
It's important to distinguish between "events Star Trek inserts a fictional explanation for" and "events that definitely didn't happen in reality." I think if we discount closed time loops (Time's Arrow, Future's End e.g.) and the former cases (The 37s, Little Green Men e.g.) - some of which overlap - I think that the first definite event from Trek that definitely "steps on butterflies" that 100% didn't happen IRL is the Eugenics Wars.
As much as I enjoyed Greg Cox's attempt to reconcile these events which allegedly happened during the 90s as being a shadow war in the excellent "Star Trek: The Eugenics Wars," the fact that they happened at all implies (a) advanced genetic manipulation going on ca 1970 at the latest in order for Khan to be an adult by 1990 and (b) that earth was readying interstellar sleeper-ships by ca 2000 in order for Botany Bay to happen.
But then again, starting with Enterprise and continuing with Trek 2009, Discovery and SNW, the "established canon" is - and has been for some time - that Earth's history is pretty much a Wikipedia edit war. TOS occurred in an alternate timeline where we had warp drives and shields and transporters but computers, even 250 years from now, were still nothing more than IBM mainframes with voice interfaces. Maybe it's the original timeline where Henry Starling didn't introduce the first "isograted circuit" in 1967?
After thinking about it, i have to agree. Captain Proton is the real divergence point for Star Trek from us.
Ripples spread out. In the City on the Edge of Forever a man picks up McCoy's phaser and accidently commits suicide. Perhaps this had no long-term effects, but perhaps it changed something so important that the future was totally different from what it would have been.
The episode "The 37's" also has Nogami as one of the abductees. He is an Imperial Japanese Soldiers standing there in full military reagalia without anyone even flinching. Especially not Paris, the 20th century buff. 1937 is also the year the Nanjing massacre took place. Was he complicit? Does nobody care? Imagine a nazi soldier standing there without anyone reacting. This episode is the best example of how Star Trek treats the Japanese way different than the Germans. Name me one German character on the level of Sulu or Keiko. I can name your 3 episodes of Aliens wearing nazi uniforms.
@@subraxas Possibly yes. But not cofirmed. There is a novel stating Detmer of DIS to be from Germany, but it is not canonical.
@@Titamiva Germans as "good" characters would not have worked for Gene Roddenberry; in 2020's that taboo would not apply.
OK I have two answers to this question. First of all, the Star Trek timeline is a fictional timeline and it should always be separate from our timeline. It was a mistake for Trek writers to move the Eugenics War out of the 1990s. That is when it happened in the Star Trek timeline. It needs to have remained that, and it doesn’t matter if that didn’t happen in our timeline because Star Trek as a fictional timeline.
However, to answer your question. Within universe, I know exactly when the timeline changed. This, of course, assumes that the Star Trek timeline is our timeline. The only thing that could’ve happened that would have allowed for a deviation from our timeline from the Trek timeline is: During the episode “The City on the Edge of Forever” (in 1930) when that wino in the street disintegrated himself with McCoy’s phaser! That sent a ripple in time that allowed for the creation of Captain Proton and for the Amelia Earhart disappearance. There’s your answer!
When I first watched that episode, when I was twelve, I remember at the end of the episode the Guardian of Forever explaining that: "All is as it was." but I then started screaming at the TV and saying, “but what about the guy who got disintegrated? How is that like it was????” Now I know. Now it all makes sense. That event...that sacrifice...actually led to the creation of the entire Star Trek universe. :)
That's what I always thought but how do we know that the homeless guy wouldn't have died anyway? He wasn't in good shape: he could have gone at any time.
Thenz of course, TGOF could have had limited ability to restore the dead guy to life.
Then there is the possibility that it was a predestination paradox, a stable time loop. The homeless guy always did die, Kirk+Spock always did arrive in 1930s Chicago. There was no 'first time around'; the loop and alternative timeline were and ate always there
I have a theory that Vulcans visited Earth during the Anglo-Saxon. Period. Elves closely resemble Vulcans. They are also associated with magic and can disappear. Vulcans had this technology during human antiquity. This is of course, in the Star Trek universe.
Vulcans visited Earth and provided us with a (now ex-) Prime Minister, Commander Sunak.
I figured that the Mirror Universe Trek was because Edith Kealer was saved.
...
...
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My God... That's pretty good.
Imagine if Star Trek is still running in the 23rd and 24th Centuries. They'd definitely have to settle on it being alternate history by then.
In my head-canon, the Star Trek universe had a highly popular sci-fi series that ran through the late 60s into the 70s/80s, that fill the role of Star Trek in our history. It was called "Galaxy Quest." :D
Given that the very laws of physics differ, I'd say the divergence point was 0.000000000001 second after the big bang.
As a kid I wanted to believe Star Trek was a "real" look at our future. I was bothered that the date of the Eugenics War was approaching but there was no mention of Kahn on the news. I liked the idea that it was a more clandestine activity related to all of the smaller conflicts going on. As an adult I can understand that Trek is a totally fictional world. If they say there was a Eugenics War in 1996, I can accept that as an in universe fact as much as I can that there was a Dominion war in the 2370s. On the other hand, I do appreciate that they are addressing all of the in-universe inconsistencies as being the result of time travel shenanigans.
The only real historic divergence I can extrapolate is with the parents of Khan. At some point during their life they started working on a project to create a super human, and gave birth to him. Since Khan was probably no more than 45-50 at the time of his leaving Earth, and that was in 1996, I believe, he must have been born between 1946, and 1951. In Star Trek: Into Darkness they say he was born in 1959, but this too was an alternate history, so I'm not going to use it. Given what was going on before 1946, I'd speculate that his parents were attached to the Nazis, probably scientists exploring super human eugenics projects, maybe they were studying in Germany, and work for them. They were probably of true Aryan descent, the peoples who originated in Iran and the northern India regions. Surviving the war, they perfected their theory, and gave birth to Khan. The work they did for Germany having aided their own ambitions. Hitler probably supported their work in order to use it to create perfect super human Aryans, but with the end of the war, and Germany losing, Khan's parents returned to their home in India, or where ever it is that Khan originated. The eugenics project of Khan's parents is the first truly di9vergent historic fact in the Star Trek Universe that makes a difference.
It all started diverging when the dinosaurs started to build spaceships instead of just becoming extinct 🦖
@@subraxas is this canon? i have always presumed they built and traveled in starships under their own volition. sorry the story has been run down to another abduction troupe.
Yes, we should have known. Cha-ka, was a little too annoying for the sleestaks.
arent those 'dinosaurs' said to be cold-blooded? while the dinosaurs on earth are not. so im not convinced those Voth really came from earth
The star trek novel Ishmeal by Barbara Hambly which takes place largely at the end of the 19th century is said by many to be the point of divergence. (Caused by spock accidentally time traveling) it's a great read. I liked the book a lot.
Star Trek meets Here Comes the Brides.
Who's to say that the mere fact that we have a show called Star Trek in our universe and they don't isn't what caused us to diverge?
IMO, the point of divergence may be something not recorded or a set of many things that may only be partially documented. For example, the nuclear space platform launched by the USA in "Assignment Earth" would have required many years of development and funding before it would be ready for deployment. Add in possible similar devices from the Soviet Union and others, it gets murky.
In the end, Star Trek is just a set of stories and doesn't really matter about "canon".
Did Trek even mention Neil Armstrong? Robert A. Heinlein classified his alternate universes according to who the first man on the moon was. Assignment Earth was Apollo 6, Apollo 12 hasn't happened yet, it could be someone else who gets the honor. Possibly even our good Air Force captain, as USAF supplied many astronauts!
This all reminds me that I want to see a series about when Data was removed from the Enterprise for 1 week to take part in several secret time travelling missions.
He must go back to investigate potential time-line crimes on Earth but in every episode he would mostly end up fighting bikers then riding around on a motorcycle, wearing sunglasses and fighting more bikers.
Just the opening scene of T2 but it lasts for 3, twelve episode seasons. It would be called "Dave's..." (I'm Dave) "Dave's Science Fiction Heaven" and I dont even want any money for the concept because I'm all about the art.
I’m pretty sure we live in the Terran universe timeline.
Clearly.... if Orange River had begun making episodes much earlier in our history, we would now be on the Star Trek time line.
George de _Mestral_ you say? As in mestral, the Vulcan who crash landed & stayed on earth after his colleagues were rescued!
The answer is in Robert A. Heinlein's "Number of the Beast".
I wish they'd just stick with the original sequence of events. I think it would be fun if we got to see an alternate version of Earth after the 1960s.
Apart from anything else, they currently have to ignore the way real life history has been influenced by Star Trek. I refer you to the elaborate theory as to how the hiring of Jeri Ryan for Voyager indirectly led to the Obama presidency.
I don't think I've ever thought about Roddenberry himself existing in the Star Trek universe lol. It's a fun idea to consider though. On another note, I don't mind that the timeline doesn't match up with reality myself. Thank you for this rather interesting exploration of the Trek timeline.
God be with you out there everybody. ✝️ :)
I like to think that our timeline diverged when the Soviet Union put the first man on the moon on June 26th 1969, as shown in For All Mankind.
That's not Star Trek!😂 Very amusing comment!!!
Trek was full of infinate universe timelines. I believe Trek is in it's own timeline, NOT ours.
Close, but NOT ours.
The divergence between the two time lines has to be something that prevented WWIII in the 1990s. That is most likely to be the success of the Gary 7 mission. If the tv show would have been adopted, they could have shown how ww3 was prevented.
Another thing: thete us no "neo-Trotskists" party on French politics. But in the Trekverse they were in power in France by 2024.
Placing my bet on just pre-WW2, at least by September 1, 1939. Three technical divergences stand out in the Trekverse. 1. It has more advanced space flight capabilities than ours. (The DY-100 Botany Bay is launched in the mid 1990's. 2. More advanced cryo. (ST:TNG found a stray satellite with frozen people from the early 21st out yonder.) 3. More advanced genetics. Khan Noonian Singh would have to have been born in the 1950s to take over in the mid 1990's.
Somehow, Edith Keeler's life and death did affect the timeline, by creating the Trekverse and perhaps the Terran Empire also.
Or, the Temporal Cold War affected lots more than noted.
Also IDIC may apply to timelines as well.
The removal of Gary Seven from ancient Earth.
I asked this question a couple years back in a popular r/daystrominstitute post, and there were some good answers. The velcro one was a common answer. But someone actually proposed Roddenberry's plane crash (specifically the third one he was in i believe, while deadheading/jumpseating). In the prime timeline Roddenberry dies and never presents his hopeful vision of the future. Humanity never aspires towards it and you get the darker earth history of the Prime timeline. Eugenics wars, WWIII, all that. Someone on a podcast with one of Roddenberry's.. kid? Grandkid? Forget exactly what the relation was- read him both my prompt and that answer. It was pretty touching.
The humor in the start of this episode is perfect for me. Thank you.
As said in Monty Python and the Holy Grail, “it’s only a model”
It would be peotic if it was on the 12th August 1921.
Good video, the TOS timeline is not our timeline and its probably no the TNG timeline. The divergence may have occurred as a result of one of the two TOS visits to the past, or perhaps even the airing of the star trek series which means Gene may have been a time travellers who was trying to avoid a bad future.
04:56
"Did Gene [Roddenberry] exist in the Star Trek Universe?'
I'd say it depends upon the writers and how they would choose to shoe-horn them in.
I'm writing a Gilligan's Island fan fiction.
IN it, Ginger Grant has a REASON for travelling to Hawaii in the first place.
She is going to screen test for a sit-com about a movie star stuck on an island with some other goofy people.
She, for reasons [read the fic when I release it] loses out the role to another actress whom she only identifies as "Tina".
The sit com happens AND after the castaways are rescued they become aware of it [background, NOT really integral to the story] SO, the "Gilligan's Island" TV show DOES exist within the universe of Gilligan's Island.
It's just never named, only referred to and inferred, but NEVER detailed.
MAYBE it's easier when writing comedy, BUT i see NO reason where Gene could not exist, NOR any reason why he could not be responsible for a ground breaking sci-fi TV series that MAY find some parallels within the "Reality" of the Star Trek Universe.
You have to admit, THAT would make a h*ll of an episode.
congrats on the sponsor, live long and prosper!
thank you!
Thank you for not ignoring the fact that what is called the "ancient astronaut hypothesis" is pretty damn racist.
I can accept the original timeline. But I do like First Contacts take on it. Since Enterprise carried on from it. So I understand why they push it forward for new shows. But for me First Contact is my headcanon for the start of Star Trek universe.
How about the TNG episode Hotel Royale, where they found a book from the 20th century named Hotel Royale by Todd Matthews. The book does not exist in the real world.
The entire universe of "Star Trek" is of course our far future... REALLY far future where all humans are essentially "Q-like" beings and the various Star Trek "universes" are simply "fan-fic" threads on some future forum where all the Star Trek fans make their own reality :)
I think some of Benny Russell’s stories were adapted into Galaxy Quest episodes.
I wouldn't necessarily count Captain Proton. Lost Media is a thing, especially in the era that serials were made. There are a lot of movies, serials, books, comics, etc. that are lost to time from this era. Some we know existed, some we have a hint may have existed, some at best are rumour, and some we have definitely lost without a hint. We could live in the timeline where someone working on Voyager heard someone who was a teen or child at the time talk about it, and little ramblings like that are all that exist. Not enough that anyone ever clued in to investigate.
I mean...no this probably did not happen. Captain Proton is clearly royalty free Flash Gordon and Buck Rogers mashed together.
You mention a difference being the existence of Star Trek in our universe (as a tv show.) This is an area I think about often; media that has had huge impacts on our culture, takes place in the future (compared to when it was created). How is the world difference in the Trek universe without the existence of Star Trek?
I love it!! It aired first in my country, lol. Lots to go through here and consider.
Full points for your take on "sabotage." I literally LOLed
For the large part, I don't think it really matters. On the other hand, I happen to think the divergence would have to have started in the 1960's since the Eugenic Wars were fought in the 1990's which means that Khan Noonien Singh and his associates would've had to have been created at last three decades before. So I think the late 1960's is a good point for an initial divergence point.
I've always thought of Star Trek as the History of the Future, but it's a bit weird of people to try to fit WWIII into the 20th century. Thanks for a great video.
Every work of fiction set in the real world is inherently set in an alternate universe where the work of fiction never existed. So, 1966.
Ireland unified in the early 2020's (probably helped by Brexit)
One divergence that Star Trek mentions that may yet to occur.
I will always appreciate how the audio on your videos is louder and uses more Headroom than most every other TH-camr that I ever look at. Thank you for making your videos listen-to-abel
CAN YOU DO PAKLED. THEY R SMART
It's Sabotage, not Sabotage... 😏
It would have to be about 3.7 billion years ago, when Q and Picard traveled to Earth's past moments before life began.
When confronted with divergence from our real timeline in science fiction back before the internet, I always just groused that writers should just push all future dates forward a couple thousand years, problem solved. For my money, I especially have no confidence in the social evolution of future cultures happening in just 2 or 3 hundred years...yeah, right.
The answer is when humanity emerged. Star Trek's humans are clearly at least psychologically a different species from real world humans.
Great job Subraxax 😎🖖🏻
In "All Good Things" Q lists a date for the start of life that we now know to be inaccurate. So then. Anyhow, great video and thank you for talking about the ickiness of using recent tragedy for such a trivial purpose. Sci-fi can shed light and meaning onto real world tragedies, but just using it as a data point -- overwriting the deeply complex real world reasons why people die in these events -- seems to minimize the suffering. I can't imagine how I'd feel if a parent died in a terrorist attack and it was used this way.
And here we were blaming CERN.
Interlinked!
I think in reality the Greek gods being real or not might have been the biggest change. Who knows what influence that would have had on one of the most influential cultures in human history. The political, religious, linguistic and cultural composition of eruope and the middle east and even north africa would be very different.
Well the thing about that is, since it's so long ago, them being real or not doesn't have much bearing on our everyday lives (except for the fact that in real life they're pure mythology). That's not so much a "divergence" in the noticeable fashion.
Totally agree. But it would be an interesting butterfly effect imo. @@OrangeRiver
The true divergence occurs at some point prior to the Eugenics Wars, and presumably prior to the episode "Assignment Earth."
A) for Khan and the other eugenic "augments" to exist, they would have to have been born around 20-30+ years prior to the timeframe of the Eugenics Wars as stated in "Space Seed." (I don't see how you retcon Spock and Kirk mistaking the early/mid 21st century for the "1990s" without actually changing the timeline. The simple fact is they set the Eugenics Wars too early in the script, but in 1967 the "90s" seemed generations away... which of course it wasn't). Anyway, that means a whole bunch of scientists the world over decided to practice eugenics and genetic tinkering (and presumably had been doing so for more than just one generation) starting at some point in the early/mid 20th century. Which... okay... eugenics was a thing, yes... but the technology to do the kind of genetic manipulation necessary to produce something like Khan is something we're only just now MAYBE becoming capable of. Some kind of "secret science" MIGHT have existed earlier... but that's not hugely plausible. So we're already looking at a 20th century that doesn't fully match our own.
B) Okay, we can maybe buy that the US and "other powers" were secretly putting nuclear weapons in orbit, despite treaties to the contrary in our real world. But in "Assignment Earth" they use a Saturn V to do so. Which of course was because, in the real world, that was THE big rocket at the time and immediately recognizable... and good stock footage in color would have been available (and if you could afford it, you could even send a small second unit team down to Cape Canaveral to get some shots... but this is 1960s TOS we're talking about, who didn't have that budget). Anyway... using a Saturn V to launch ANYTHING other than designated Apollo spacecraft would not have been possible, as there were only so many Saturn V's built, and each one was allocated. ALL were used in the Apollo shots, until the remaining Apollo missions were scrubbed by Nixon in the early 70s. The only remaining Saturn Vs were used for Skylab and I believe the Apollo/Soyuz mission. The last one, as I recall, is the one that sits outside of the Cape Canaveral building. So where would this OTHER Saturn V have come from? Built in secret? But it sure as hell wasn't launched in secret. It's right there at Cape Canaveral for all to see. Okay, maybe not a HUGE divergence... but then it suggests something else:
C) Getting back to Khan, he and his fellow "supermen" leave Earth in a "DY-100 Class" spacecraft. In the 1990s. No such thing exists nor does it yet exist. It's clearly a relatively sophisticated spacecraft (at least for its time) and is said, by Spock, to be one of earth's most advanced at the time. Where the hell does this thing come from? WELL. Clearly we're already looking at a timeline where space tech has already surpassed that of our real world. Extra Saturn Vs in existence in 1968; the DY-100 being an established, presumably interplanetary vessel in the 1990s... and then Sean Geoffrey Christopher heading up a mission to Saturn at some point in the 1990s or early 2000s, as he's said not to be born yet in what is 1969, but we can safely presume he WAS born in the 70s or 80s, and therefore would have gone to Saturn somewhere around the end of the 90s or so. Already a huge divergence itself. There are subsequent examples from TNG etc. that point to a FAR more sophisticated and advanced space travel technology than what we currently have. It seems like we're maybe 50 years (or more?) behind the established technology progression established by Star Trek.
Yes, judging by Assignment Earth some unknown faction must have been heavily advancing technological development in multiple countries on Earth.
It's not such a big jump to get the DY-100. You just take a nuclear submarine and add the propulsion unit . . .
Well, I hope It already diverge, because that little WW3 nuclear issue and all, you know? 😅
This bringa up so many questions I hadn't thought of before. I sort of thought on similar notion; in comics Marvel, DC and Fawcett comics existed in their own universes and had similar but slightly different versions of the comics, cartoons, etc that exist in the real world. Julie Swartze of DC existed in-universe too, at least on Earth-one, but as a failed comic book creator. So sort of thought along these notions. But now Ive so many new questions based on this line of thinking. Did Mark Twain exist in the Tom Sawyer universe? Was he famous, but just for every non-Sawyer-related work? Was he a failed writer or still a newspaperman? I wouldn't be surprised if Twain himself addressed it (tongue thoroughly planted in cheek, no doubt). But it's especially a question (the lives artists' dopplegangers within their fictional works) with writers, etc whose work shaped the medium and eventually society. Very cool question. Very cool video premise. Wisgph there was a whole series devoted to it.
to your Twain analogy.. Twain's Books were Published between 1876 and 1895, and set in the 1840s (when Twain himself would have been 5-15)
a case could be made that in-Universe little Sammy Clemons lived down the road and either witnessed his antics or heard Stories about that Cool Big Kid Tommy Sawyer (or some such and changed the names to protect the innocent)
I’m of the opinion that the CBS Trek created it’s own time lines. CBS has spawned at least 3 different timelines if not more. So as far as I’m concerned- I could care less if their Shows match TOD, TNG, DS9…
PICARD made at least two maybe three time lines, Discovery at least two then Brave New Worlds has at least two - not even going to mention Lower Decks which is suppose to be post TNG crossover with pre TOS Brave New Worlds? CBS just is a mess
It diverged the exact split second Gene Roddenberry came up with a *SCIENCE FICTION* show.
If Doctor Spock was to ask the Enterprise's computer "What was the most important and influential science-fiction television franchise of the late 20th century / early 21st century?", what answer would he get?
Doctor Spock? The baby expert guy?
@@TheIrvy The bloke from Star Trek
@@the-scamp He's a Mister, dammit, not a doctor ;)
Mr. Who.
@@Luthiart You mean the show with that robot, RP32?
I really like your short analysis of the events of Assignment Earth.. it is very similar to my own little write up l did bout it on the Memory Alpha website yeah bout a dozen or so years ago. Yeah the original series almost hit the nail on the head with that one! The fact that the nukes being launched into orbit in the Trek version of history were something unknown to the general public seems to be confirmed not only by Kirk's comments at the end of the episode. But also by Gary Seven's statement to Roberta shortly after he meets her that the nuclear weapons being launched are "very secret devises vital to the security of this nation!"