@@neonoah3353 there is always some exceptions and I think monster reborn have animation bcuz Konami found it it's my og favorite spell card 🤓 but joke aside probably bcuz monster reborn is iconic card.
@@masterharith8488 I just explained it and reply to someone else you can go and read it but in short, there is always exceptions in everything and this card are iconic cards.
I dunno I think it's not gonna be as meta defining as many people think. I think it's gonna be more useful to have x3 Effect Veiler rather than Nibiru if there is room for handtraps
Just like Lancea that was bad until a format came where it just becomes the best staple that auto wins some games and people played it everywhere, even on ladder
Yeah but it does show where they plan on having it go in the first place. Ash has been in the code for a while now, release Nibiru to test the waters, what's next? How long before TTT, Lightning storm, etc. I've liked how different DL meta was, I rather not have it any where near the TCG.
There's a thing you maybe missed, most skills forbids the use of Nibiru. Blue Eyes and Mayakashi cannot play them, the skill they rely on doesn't allow it. It's really only going to be used with overpowered decks without enough restrictions like Fleur, with decks that don't rely on skills like Unchained, Sky Strikers or Evil Twins. Because of the introduction of Nibiru, non reliant skills will take an immense boost and there could be some competition between all those skill reliant decks and the non skill reliant ones.
I've already started transitioning to RUSH. I just dont understand their reasoning behind thinking it's okay to add these hand traps that warped the TCG to a game that has strayed so far away from it. Sigh
This is true right now, but it also tells me that, in the future, they're going to design skills that have some other way of locking you to an archetype while still letting you summon Nibiru. No way they let their chase card from a Selection Box sit and gather dust because the 20th Blue-Eyes Skill still prevents you from summoning it.
Some skills have been designed to allow you to use IDP while still locking you in archetype, so I can see they start doing the same thing for nib, like allowing you to summon non archetype monsters only during you opponent turn or something
Idk if you’re aware what that word means. There is definitely reason to be worried about a card tributing your whole field on your first turn. No one is saying ban it already or that the game will suck after it gets here. It’s a powerful card that changes how people will make their turn 1 board and interact with eachother, this literally changes the game. You can disagree if you want but that’d just be a bad opinion that you’ll see with time~Weatherman
@@team6kdlnibiru does nothing to decks that are tiered right now. and the release of nibiru means that we will see more negates on monsters as well. we saw this same fear with effect vieler. and it was enver that strong either. and with skills nibiru wont be that good or even playable in a bunch of decks.
@@ubadman1 veiler is a commonly played card, not worthy of the fear it got, nibiru however people think isnt going to see any play at all and that's just cope, it doesnt have to be played in every deck in order to have an impact on the format it just has to be played by any deck that can benefit from it. You are also acting like this format is the last duel links format that will ever happen. This format, like all others, will pass. -Undead
Another thing to say is not every deck can physically play Nibiru. Some skills prevent you to have a Light Rock level 11 in your deck. Or prevent you to special summon Nibiru, meaning you can't use its effect.
Casually playing ranked gold, I think the only time I would have wanted nibiru in hand is when I played against one Magikey player who ended up on 3 negates.
Because it's a selectionbox only card, at the moment, I think it would not see as much play in the Speed Duel format, but I think it can just ruin a lot of decks if it comes out a year from now on and becomes a staple, except they will limit it to 1 or 3, to prevent it's consistency. For the Zexal Dream Ticket I'll be very boring and get Utopia to own both artworks without investing in the main box. Photon Dragon and Tachyon would also be a cool choice, but I think I take Utopia, because I would use it more often in other decks. For 5D's the winner is TG Halberd Canon, because I already got Stardust Dragon from the UR Dream Ticket for the Ace Monsters of each Protagonist back then. Considering Black Rose Dragon might be more generic in more decks but Halberd Canon is one of my favorite aces, so I want to own a prismatic one of it. (Even though I'm a boring Blackwing fan, I don't like Black Winged Dragon, because it tries to be a blackwing, but it's just an imposter among them, with irrelevant effect and with 0 synergy and without the skill, I would never use it. they should've made Armor Master in that ticket instead, the OG Crow ace. (if they ever make a Vrains event like this, Heatleo would win for me without a doubt, not sure about arc 5)
Hey Undead, would you consider making an Infernoble - Gearfried review? After the new banlist and Nibiru I don't know what to do with my poor Inmortal Phoenix Gearfried and my Charles 😭😭
well cards which are summoned or set by a skill won't count to nibiru so maybe some decks with skills have actually more monster to setup a Negate for Nib. And most of the skills are not written in a way to allow a Light Rock monster to be special summond ....yet. however that just means that future skills will probably be less restrictive in deck building ... kinda like the Fleur skill which doesn't have any restrictions on what they can special summon. however it could also mean that Konami wants to create a new problem called nibiru and sell the solution in the next few boxes, like apollousa or some other engine / monster negates before the 5th summon.
I think nib is going to be fine. Duel links is supposed to be quicker and lower power than the TCG/ocg. It has always been a pressure value card rather than a mandatory include. The banning system also helps keep this card in check as they can keep it out of super meta decks. I do agree with the selection box thing though... I'll be relying on other people playing it to put that fear out there 😅
Surely it will impact DL, but it is not much as MD. Most skill limit summon monster out of skill archetypes. Moreover, most skill can freely summon via skill activated (not sure in count as one summon or not, but skill is definitely cannot chain).
And I was just building unchained evil twin. 🤦🏾♂️ To be honest I don’t know why it’s being added to the game, most skills don’t even allow it to be played, we only have a few monsters that can negate it, and most decks aren’t affected by it. It’s just a really questionable addition.
the live twins are gonna be able to bait out nibiru so that you can do the unchained combo smoothly afterwards and if they dont have nib then you still get the OP board. You bait by doing full live twin combo and setting your chain backrow, then attempting to leave the main phase so theyll have to nib you, then when that happens you continue the main phase and start doing unchained combo -undead
At least half the decks in mentioned in this video can't use Nibiru due to skill limitations. That's the main reason why I'm not concerned with having to play against nor do I really care that much about having it.
Some people say that not every deck will play it because some decks are skill locked and some decks are not affected by it, BUT other cards that also have what we call situational effects, like lancea, have seen heavy play during formats that the greatest treats get countered by them, just look at Zombie World last format, it was even topping and winning some tournaments!!! And it was played a lot on the ranked ladder, JUST BECAUSE IT WAS GOOD AGAINST DRAGONS AND AGENTS At least this gives the hint that better decks are coming to the game, oh and salad is finally getting out of the banlist I guess...
It counts! The monsters summoned with the skill DID count for the Summon Breaker summon count BECAUSE of the flip summon you had to do. They will all count as summons
the live twins are gonna be able to bait out nibiru so that you can do the unchained combo smoothly afterwards and if they dont have nib then you still get the OP board. You bait by doing full live twin combo and setting your chain backrow, then attempting to leave the main phase so theyll have to nib you, then when that happens you continue the main phase and start doing unchained combo -undead
@@team6kdl in ladder that can work, but on tournament level it won't after game 1, I would much prefer playing pure unchained at that point to avoid getting nibed
So 'tis a space rock that tributes away EVERYTHING on the field and leaves you with a potentially big stat token to do with as you will? Seems to me the perfect time to put to use those otherwise seldom played cards like Imitation. My God. The possibilities. Lemons to lemonade.
Easier to play around than other HTs, basically don’t Summon 5 as often as possible. Not every DL deck has that many per turn, and many decks can’t even resolve it cause of their Skill.
Nice strategy, real smart decision you made there You can also dodge Effect Veiler if you don't ever activate effects, there's another strategy that you might like Skull Meister can't hit you either if you never use the effects of your GY If you don't play a certain way out of fear of eating a handtrap then you're already getting handtrapped, if you don't make your combos because of Nibiru then they already won and didn't even need to activate it
@@jacksonville9642 You just do what you want to do and prepare for the possibility. That said, you can still make informed decisions regarding cards in the format and play decks with advantage over these tech. PK vs Lancea was pretty up hill for the fans of it.
I don't think it's combo dead fully but like Lancea its a mistake of format for it?? Lob in 3 and pray to auto win. Not the format and have the space just play veiler
I wonder how nibiru is gonna work with skills. Does the counter restart when a monster is summoned by the skill or does it just continue to to count excluding the skill summon?
@team6kdl Well, what I was asking was let's say we use the skill revolution des fleurs. We summon, that's 1. Then, use the skill to summon the tuner. Does the counter stay at 1 and continues after the tuner is put on the field, or does the counter restart at 0 after the skill is used?
If combo deck is dead, then the core fan of duel links should be rejoiced? Because older (boomer) archetype will be easier to play since it doesn't trigger nibiru 😉
Your turn 1 can be done in only 4 summons If you play against a skill reliant deck, you can go FULL BALLS with your best turn 1. If you play against Sky Strikers, Unchained, Live Twins or Fleur, you will have to stop at 4 summons - otherwise we raidraptors mains ARE COOKED 😂 We're together in this haha
I'm pretty sold on the idea that if a deck is afraid of Nibiru it shouldn't have been viable in Duel Links/Speed Duel to begin with. Also it could be worse, physical Speed Duels are getting Maxx C soon.
Really hope konami stops releasing boxes for a month or 2 like they do around this time, becquse man, i need some time to get gems and finish decks. Also hope that albaz and dogs that were leaked dont come anytime soon, the albaz lore archetypes would destroy duel links.
No matter who it is, after they say "From my hand, I activate a monster effect!", I want to see the most epic Nibiru animation of all time
You mostly will not see it, bcuz in duel links only ace cards of char get animation. (idk nibiru is someone ace or not but I don't think tho)
Alao special cards like monster reborn... For some reason.
@@kaibacorp13blud forgot monster reborn, mirror force got animation
@@neonoah3353 there is always some exceptions and I think monster reborn have animation bcuz Konami found it it's my og favorite spell card 🤓 but joke aside probably bcuz monster reborn is iconic card.
@@masterharith8488 I just explained it and reply to someone else you can go and read it but in short, there is always exceptions in everything and this card are iconic cards.
I dunno I think it's not gonna be as meta defining as many people think. I think it's gonna be more useful to have x3 Effect Veiler rather than Nibiru if there is room for handtraps
Just like Lancea that was bad until a format came where it just becomes the best staple that auto wins some games and people played it everywhere, even on ladder
@@Lu_Kadjolo Pretty much Niburu won't be good until a certain meta comes and I'm betting on a year for it to happen
@@wilfridekoue1405 exactly, maybe not a year, but it will be good some time in the future
Yeah but it does show where they plan on having it go in the first place. Ash has been in the code for a while now, release Nibiru to test the waters, what's next? How long before TTT, Lightning storm, etc.
I've liked how different DL meta was, I rather not have it any where near the TCG.
I keep wondering of good alts to Veiler. I am not going to have 1 in the game for a long while.
I can't wait to play Heroes just to end up the main phase with a token in defense position.
Add necrofusion are is that not good in heroes?
@@justacatwithghostlygibus9823 If only one could take on the Rampart Blaster effect.
good❤
WAIT NIBURSU IS COMING TO DUEL LINKS?, WHAT HAVE I MISSED
It’s breaking news lol
Nibiru
This was almost perfectly a clever twist. "Nibirsu" plays on the convention of cards like Dingirsu and their huge impact on the game.
@@neonoah3353 thank you😅
@@residentgrey I 100% planned it😅
There's a thing you maybe missed, most skills forbids the use of Nibiru.
Blue Eyes and Mayakashi cannot play them, the skill they rely on doesn't allow it.
It's really only going to be used with overpowered decks without enough restrictions like Fleur, with decks that don't rely on skills like Unchained, Sky Strikers or Evil Twins.
Because of the introduction of Nibiru, non reliant skills will take an immense boost and there could be some competition between all those skill reliant decks and the non skill reliant ones.
As an unchained player playing for 7 years on one account i can confirm i wont be spending gems on a selection box.
When we get ash, that’s when I know we’re in the end times
@@Solaris_XT she's in the codes already, hold your trousers
Tour Guide uses Ash and Ghost Ogre in her deck...
I've already started transitioning to RUSH. I just dont understand their reasoning behind thinking it's okay to add these hand traps that warped the TCG to a game that has strayed so far away from it. Sigh
Ash blossom is probably when I drop the game
It's in the game but just unobtainable
rip my galaxy eyes 💀
Konami just give us Shooting Quasar Dragon animation already if u gonna make an animated Stardust Dragon playmat 😭😭😭
If they add niburu they better add cyber dragon infinity for galaxy eyes has a actual negate cause if not that deck is so dead
A bunch of skills prevent u from summoning nib, so decks like shaddoll, blue eyes, darkfluid and a bunch more cant even use it.
This is true right now, but it also tells me that, in the future, they're going to design skills that have some other way of locking you to an archetype while still letting you summon Nibiru. No way they let their chase card from a Selection Box sit and gather dust because the 20th Blue-Eyes Skill still prevents you from summoning it.
Some skills have been designed to allow you to use IDP while still locking you in archetype, so I can see they start doing the same thing for nib, like allowing you to summon non archetype monsters only during you opponent turn or something
The Meta Doomsday has come in the form of a meteor, quite fitting
madara activates a second nibiru -undead
soo much fearmongering about this card
Idk if you’re aware what that word means. There is definitely reason to be worried about a card tributing your whole field on your first turn. No one is saying ban it already or that the game will suck after it gets here. It’s a powerful card that changes how people will make their turn 1 board and interact with eachother, this literally changes the game. You can disagree if you want but that’d just be a bad opinion that you’ll see with time~Weatherman
@@team6kdlnibiru does nothing to decks that are tiered right now. and the release of nibiru means that we will see more negates on monsters as well.
we saw this same fear with effect vieler. and it was enver that strong either.
and with skills nibiru wont be that good or even playable in a bunch of decks.
@@ubadman1 veiler is a commonly played card, not worthy of the fear it got, nibiru however people think isnt going to see any play at all and that's just cope, it doesnt have to be played in every deck in order to have an impact on the format it just has to be played by any deck that can benefit from it. You are also acting like this format is the last duel links format that will ever happen. This format, like all others, will pass. -Undead
Nibiru, Pot of Avarice and Live Twin support in the selection box
Hand traps like this will kill Duel Links
Another thing to say is not every deck can physically play Nibiru. Some skills prevent you to have a Light Rock level 11 in your deck. Or prevent you to special summon Nibiru, meaning you can't use its effect.
Just when I thought duel couldn't get any worse
honestly i love this now every deck has to play around nib so there wont be as many crazy f*ckoff combo's that just auto win going first
It’s Nibbin time
This card is going to be a niche tech card. Though i think it'll only get stronger the longer the game lives on.
Casually playing ranked gold, I think the only time I would have wanted nibiru in hand is when I played against one Magikey player who ended up on 3 negates.
man seeing another brother on his yugioh shit, makes me so happy dawg
and he a mayakashi enjoyer too
i love that deck so much -undead
Because it's a selectionbox only card, at the moment, I think it would not see as much play in the Speed Duel format, but I think it can just ruin a lot of decks if it comes out a year from now on and becomes a staple, except they will limit it to 1 or 3, to prevent it's consistency.
For the Zexal Dream Ticket I'll be very boring and get Utopia to own both artworks without investing in the main box. Photon Dragon and Tachyon would also be a cool choice, but I think I take Utopia, because I would use it more often in other decks.
For 5D's the winner is TG Halberd Canon, because I already got Stardust Dragon from the UR Dream Ticket for the Ace Monsters of each Protagonist back then. Considering Black Rose Dragon might be more generic in more decks but Halberd Canon is one of my favorite aces, so I want to own a prismatic one of it. (Even though I'm a boring Blackwing fan, I don't like Black Winged Dragon, because it tries to be a blackwing, but it's just an imposter among them, with irrelevant effect and with 0 synergy and without the skill, I would never use it. they should've made Armor Master in that ticket instead, the OG Crow ace.
(if they ever make a Vrains event like this, Heatleo would win for me without a doubt, not sure about arc 5)
Hey Undead, would you consider making an Infernoble - Gearfried review? After the new banlist and Nibiru I don't know what to do with my poor Inmortal Phoenix Gearfried and my Charles 😭😭
I would potentially but I don't have 3 of the infernoble search spell -undead
Remember its stats too. What are some good Super Poly targets? It is also Rock, so HELLO FOSSILS!
well cards which are summoned or set by a skill won't count to nibiru so maybe some decks with skills have actually more monster to setup a Negate for Nib.
And most of the skills are not written in a way to allow a Light Rock monster to be special summond ....yet.
however that just means that future skills will probably be less restrictive in deck building ... kinda like the Fleur skill which doesn't have any restrictions on what they can special summon.
however it could also mean that Konami wants to create a new problem called nibiru and sell the solution in the next few boxes, like apollousa or some other engine / monster negates before the 5th summon.
thank you for the info, maybe a one copy of this staple would do
I think I know a deck I can slide a high level rock into
I managed to get one copy so far, and then the Selection pack screwed me with duplicates after I reset the pack
Salamangreat Needs More Support They Konami Don’t Even Have All The Cards in Duel Links
I think nib is going to be fine. Duel links is supposed to be quicker and lower power than the TCG/ocg. It has always been a pressure value card rather than a mandatory include. The banning system also helps keep this card in check as they can keep it out of super meta decks. I do agree with the selection box thing though... I'll be relying on other people playing it to put that fear out there 😅
Now I can put something in my Exodia deck that helps stop opposing combos lol.
Surely it will impact DL, but it is not much as MD. Most skill limit summon monster out of skill archetypes. Moreover, most skill can freely summon via skill activated (not sure in count as one summon or not, but skill is definitely cannot chain).
I think we deserve Crossout Designator now
I have no idea who thought this was a good idea
it was mr krabs -undead
Drop OEAD on Nibiru! That can become some sweet burn damage!
Cl1 nib Cl2 ulti-kannahawk 🗿🗿🗿🗿
And I was just building unchained evil twin. 🤦🏾♂️
To be honest I don’t know why it’s being added to the game, most skills don’t even allow it to be played, we only have a few monsters that can negate it, and most decks aren’t affected by it. It’s just a really questionable addition.
the live twins are gonna be able to bait out nibiru so that you can do the unchained combo smoothly afterwards and if they dont have nib then you still get the OP board. You bait by doing full live twin combo and setting your chain backrow, then attempting to leave the main phase so theyll have to nib you, then when that happens you continue the main phase and start doing unchained combo -undead
@@team6kdlWhat if they don't Nib and just Kaiju the twins off
At least half the decks in mentioned in this video can't use Nibiru due to skill limitations. That's the main reason why I'm not concerned with having to play against nor do I really care that much about having it.
Borrel link also just ends with 3-4 summons nowdays
Still waiting for sword soul to come to duel links
Never played them in MD but I have all the tenyi cards so it should be fun
Some people say that not every deck will play it because some decks are skill locked and some decks are not affected by it, BUT other cards that also have what we call situational effects, like lancea, have seen heavy play during formats that the greatest treats get countered by them, just look at Zombie World last format, it was even topping and winning some tournaments!!! And it was played a lot on the ranked ladder, JUST BECAUSE IT WAS GOOD AGAINST DRAGONS AND AGENTS
At least this gives the hint that better decks are coming to the game, oh and salad is finally getting out of the banlist I guess...
Does skill summon counts for nibiru? I dont think it will. Skills summon 2 monsters these days
Its not gonna be counted i think
It counts!
The monsters summoned with the skill DID count for the Summon Breaker summon count BECAUSE of the flip summon you had to do.
They will all count as summons
@@soupe2000I don't think flip summons count for Nib
Nib is locked out of skills 9/10
The live twin unchained exemple is not very good, because your opponent can just wait for you to go into your unchained plays to activate it
the live twins are gonna be able to bait out nibiru so that you can do the unchained combo smoothly afterwards and if they dont have nib then you still get the OP board. You bait by doing full live twin combo and setting your chain backrow, then attempting to leave the main phase so theyll have to nib you, then when that happens you continue the main phase and start doing unchained combo -undead
@@team6kdl in ladder that can work, but on tournament level it won't after game 1, I would much prefer playing pure unchained at that point to avoid getting nibed
Duel Links, master duel, real life. Yugioh just can't stay away from power creep
Me still using pendulum☠
its ok man sens im playing infernobles we got Phoenix Gearfried so im not worried :3
R.i.p Fluffal 😭
fluffals can win with less than 5 though right? -undead
@@team6kdl aren't they gonna change the effect of Nibiru to fit better with DL? (Like only 3-4 monsters instead of 5)
@@Dogemin no -undead
So 'tis a space rock that tributes away EVERYTHING on the field and leaves you with a potentially big stat token to do with as you will? Seems to me the perfect time to put to use those otherwise seldom played cards like Imitation. My God. The possibilities. Lemons to lemonade.
Watch me combo still. Graveyard is my second hand anyway.
Speedroid
Can Borrel link play around nib? Prob not prob gonna switch back to blue eyes
They can play around it. You can leave your summons for the end phase
Maxx C when btw
Easier to play around than other HTs, basically don’t Summon 5 as often as possible.
Not every DL deck has that many per turn, and many decks can’t even resolve it cause of their Skill.
Nice strategy, real smart decision you made there
You can also dodge Effect Veiler if you don't ever activate effects, there's another strategy that you might like
Skull Meister can't hit you either if you never use the effects of your GY
If you don't play a certain way out of fear of eating a handtrap then you're already getting handtrapped, if you don't make your combos because of Nibiru then they already won and didn't even need to activate it
I need 12 summons in Sunavalon just to end on a board with 2 monsters and 1 trap......
@@jacksonville9642 You just do what you want to do and prepare for the possibility. That said, you can still make informed decisions regarding cards in the format and play decks with advantage over these tech. PK vs Lancea was pretty up hill for the fans of it.
@@TaLeng2023 with pot of averice sunavaloln can just start over.
My jank lightsworn deck summons crystal wing on the 5th summon
I don't think it's combo dead fully but like Lancea its a mistake of format for it?? Lob in 3 and pray to auto win. Not the format and have the space just play veiler
We no need anti-niburo
they kill DL, for 36th time
and of course it won't die -undead
Nibiru will be as played as Droll. Never.
"It is the endgame. The mad titan was Inevitable" We're all gonna get MERK'd off the face of DL
Iam a sucker for chronomaly so looks like I yet again will be spending $
The hell with niberu. I don't think it's going have much effect till later down the road
Let us prey nibiru will be on the limited list
No
@@jaimeai9534 ?
Can lvl limit area counter this card??
the level limit area cards only impact battle positions, it won't stop nibiru -undead
I wonder how nibiru is gonna work with skills. Does the counter restart when a monster is summoned by the skill or does it just continue to to count excluding the skill summon?
it doesn't count because monsters placed on the field by skills aren't considered summons -undead
@team6kdl Well, what I was asking was let's say we use the skill revolution des fleurs. We summon, that's 1. Then, use the skill to summon the tuner. Does the counter stay at 1 and continues after the tuner is put on the field, or does the counter restart at 0 after the skill is used?
@@DJ-mf6ft like I said, it doesnt count monsters placed on the field by skills because they are not counted as summons -undead
I rather have Gorz in the game
If combo deck is dead, then the core fan of duel links should be rejoiced? Because older (boomer) archetype will be easier to play since it doesn't trigger nibiru 😉
Nibiru won't be good for ladder in most decks! But, it will be fun to have a hand trap in hand toggle off until 4 summon and then toggle on
Goodbye my Raidraptors 😭🤣
Your turn 1 can be done in only 4 summons
If you play against a skill reliant deck, you can go FULL BALLS with your best turn 1.
If you play against Sky Strikers, Unchained, Live Twins or Fleur, you will have to stop at 4 summons - otherwise we raidraptors mains ARE COOKED 😂
We're together in this haha
My borrel link 😭😭😭, surrender and go next sadly
Well just have to wait and see, becausemybe in the future the best decks skills will lock you out of nib for one reason or the other.
I'm pretty sold on the idea that if a deck is afraid of Nibiru it shouldn't have been viable in Duel Links/Speed Duel to begin with.
Also it could be worse, physical Speed Duels are getting Maxx C soon.
Just summon 4 times and stop (insert the girl from "If you're homeless buy a house" meme)
I play suship so Nibiru is kinda scary for me.
this guy really likes pronounce card names
fantastic plus -undead
Really hope konami stops releasing boxes for a month or 2 like they do around this time, becquse man, i need some time to get gems and finish decks.
Also hope that albaz and dogs that were leaked dont come anytime soon, the albaz lore archetypes would destroy duel links.
I hate it. Even T1 I can't set up my board coz of all those stupid Veiler. Now this. 🤮
Nib dont do sht, most top tier deck never summon more than 5 😮💨
only for now -undead
but many skill lock u in it own arctype so nah nib just bad in duel link
Komoney at its finest here. And yeah this turbo releases every week is tiresome, even moreso for people that don't play this shit 24/7
But japanes duelists doesn't care lmaooo whethe handtra challenge or not for them