You know, it's ironic, but I have a 1970's Hammond with dual keyboards and they are not velocity sensitive - yet I find those sounds, (very few of them) iconic. I find that the lack of such expression lets me focus on composition, since I am innately a "never play it twice" kind of guy. I like the nearly perfect feel of the keybeds and slightly reduced size very much, and of course they have the hammond quality of being expressive in a uniquely organ fashion, with knuckle trills and playing very easy. I just ordered an A61 as an entry into the midi world and hope I don't get distracted from my musical mission of keeping it simple.
The Yamaha DX7II and Korg M1 share the same keybed made by Yamaha and I think it’s still one of the best synth keybeds ever as far as feel. I also love my Korg Kronos 2 61 key keybed.
Totally agree. I love the action on my Korg M1. I've found DX-7 action can vary. Could have to do with maintenance. My other Korg M1 I bought used has much worse action than my original one. Not sure why, or what I can do about it. I think maybe the contacts could be dirty or something.
@@classicarcadeamusementpark4242 I completely disassembled my M1 keybed, cleaned everything and re-greased all the keys. Took a whole Saturday, but the result was amazing and it plays like new. I used Finish Line Extreme Flouro grease used for bicycle gears from Amazon.
@@peterldelong Thanks for your comment. I'll have to consider doing that. A few years ago, I could never imagine being without my Korg M1. However, a few years ago I switch to exclusively using Korg's software version of the M1 on my laptop, and I haven't really missed my M1 all that much. I use an Axiom 61 MIDI controller keyboard with it, which works great except I'm not a fan of the sharp edges on the keys but I can live with it. As for the sound, it's totally there. Both of my M1's the the awesome Invision Plus 1 boards added. I really wish there was a way to include those samples in Korg's VST of the M1. That may be the think making me want to keep my M1's. Otherwise I'd probably sell them, but I need to get them in good working order again. Also hoping the value will go up more like other classics of the same time period that have. I do love the M1 keybed though.
@@classicarcadeamusementpark4242 You’ll need an awesome wife to perform that work as well. She took all of the keys to the kitchen and hand washed each in Dawn, then used the air compressor to dry them thoroughly (I have traps and a filter on the output of the compressor so no oil or water in the air stream).
Amazing insights! I happened to watch your video on how to select the number of keys. Put together, they provide a comprehensive checklist for a new buyer like me who has no experience of any keyboard whatsoever! The Indian music does not emphasize polyphony or harmony (it focuses on melody and ornamentation). So the players do not need to position their fingers near the hinges. (For Indian music, a harmonium is used traditionally.) Thanks to your video, now I have learned about the importance of this factor for other genres of music!
Hello Woody. A few things. My old Korg DW-8000 AND DSS-1 have what looks like lead inserts in each key, and in the front corner of the sharps. Most importantly to pianists of which I am not, but the key 'escapement' or 'let off', which is a big part of acoustic hammer action. As you press an acoustic piano key slowly you will feel that last eight of an inch a 'slip' to the keybed. This is when the hammer has reached it's full swing to the strings and then falls back as the key continues to the keybed. The Korg Kronos patented grand piano action has this off to a tee. Also, as pipeorgan tech, working for the same builder for over 33 years now, we have what is called 'The American Guild of Organists' spec for the keyboards and where the pedalboard is set accordingly when building consoles. The key depths for this spec are always set at 3/8". Most electronic keyboards are also set to this. Thanks for your presentations 😊
@@xp50player Really? Ok, perhaps I should have said 'simulated' escapement. I have two Kronos 73's, and they most certainly have escapement 'feel' in their action. There is an easy way to prove that out, you sound like you may know, but have not discovered it in the Kronos. 😄
That DW-8000 has a totally bonkers looking keybed. I know it is not loved by many, but man it looks awesome. It is the Lamborghini Countach of keybeds. Clunky and angular. Almost as if it is made from LEGO.
You don't fancy going back in time about 3 or 4 years and releasing these videos when I was trying to figure all this out, do you? Very useful and informative stuff! Good work!
Best ever synth action on a keyboard? IMO the Kawai K5000, which apparently has a Fatar (unweighted) keybed. There's just something so satisfying about how the action feels. 2nd place is the Yamaha DX7 II and high end 90s Korg synths such as the Trinity and Z1.
Nice to see you back again! Love that you’re as obsessed with the hinges as myself! I’ve never been able to play on anything with the pivot too close to the fingers. Dual or Triple sensor actions is also a consideration worth mentioning, at least when it comes to the digital pianos!
hinge points are what makes hammond 60s manuals so great to play unfortunately, marketing for new midi controllers don't exactly mention these kind of specs
I bought a Roland RD-64 and I absolutely love this keyboard. Has great hammer action keys and feels amazing. Only cost me £350 secondhand a makes a perfect midi controller. I much prefer full-size keys.
This video really grabbed me, especially when Woody discusses hinges (fulcra) and key length. I currently have a Roland A-4 which, unfortunately has the hinge right at the wallboard. It is hard to press the keys unless you press away from the wallboard (see 12:50). From the comments I see that the Yamaha DX7, Korg M1, and Roland D50 have keys that are both long and light but these are old models. I am in the market for a brand new keyboard to replace my A-4. Where can I find information about keybeds that fit my needs? * Woody is demoing on a NI S61. Would that kb work for me? * I noticed that the Kurzweil PC4-7 has just dropped $500 in price so it is now in my price range. I was thinking of pulling the trigger but I noticed on youtube videos that the keys seem to rotate about a hinge, though not visible, that is right at the wallboard. So, no! I am now leaning toward the Yamaha CK-81 because the keys seem a little longer on the FSB keybed. Anybody have this keyboard? Any help would be appreciated (especially if you are Woody). Thanks in advance.
Do you mean Roland A-49? If so, the NI S61 (Fatar TP/9S) would be a fair bit nicer in quality, and semi-weighted. The keys are a fair bit shorter than TP/8 (various Nords) or Yamaha FS (DX7 et al.) but I'd say it's more than playable enough for a synth action. As for the FSB action, it's much lower quality. Each octave is a single molded piece, and then the "hinge" and "spring" are provided by bending the plastic. No idea how it feels, but I'd worry about longevity at least.
@ozzyp97 Thank you. I am looking at the NI S61 but I am leaning toward the Dexibell VIVO S1. When I watch TH-cam videos of it in action the keys seem to be fairly long and the action is lighter. Best . . . J
Very informative video Woody. I think you've pointed out what I've been saying. You really have to try out a keyboard before buying it. Keybeds do vary, and it comes down to personal preference. Try before you buy. I typically prefer 61 keys, and the Korg M1 keybed is the best I've encountered. The same keybed has been used in Yamaha and other models too. I used my M1's not only for the great internal sounds, but also as a MIDI controller for soft synths and sound modules like my MOTIF ES rack, DX-7 rack, Roland JV-1080 Vintage Synth module, etc. I have keyboards with 25, 49, 61, 76 & 88 hammer action keys in my collection of various quality keybeds. I was amazed after using my M1 keybed for decades (about the best one available) that I had no trouble adapting to the keybed in my Yamaha MODX6 that many people say isn't that great. I think it's much better than a lot of people give it credit for. I've played lots of keyboards with worse keybeds, including some from Korg, Roland and others. The main thing is, does it affect your playing? That's what really matters. Not how nice or how premium the keys feel. The MODX6 keys are maybe 1mm shorter than some keybeds. This doesn't bother me at all, and even when playing it with my other 13 keyboards, I don't even feel the difference. It helps keep the keyboard a little more compact which I appreciate, and less expensive to produce which I also appreciate vs paying double for the Montage and carrying twice the weight to my gigs. The things that really annoy me are: Mini keys, and bouncy keybeds. I've found several Fatar keybeds way too bouncy and greatly annoying. I had to return one I bought that I otherwise liked. It felt like the keyboard came with a trampoline. My Casio CZ-101 I got in the mid 80s was quickly replaced with a CZ-1000 which had full size keys. No thanks to those mini keys. Some keybeds, like one of the Arturia Keylabs I tried (smaller version) had almost no resistance to the keys and they went completely flat just barely touching it. Terrible. My Axiom 61 MIDI controller has sharp edged keys. I was able to get used to it thankfully, otherwise great keyboard. I'm not a big fan of some of the Roland keybeds like those I own, or the new Fantom 0. But one of the worse keybeds in a $1000+ 61 key keyboards I've ever tried was the Korg Triton LE. The keys literally flex. They feel terrible, and like they would easily break off. Also stick out a lot. The cheap MODX6 feels like premium keys compared to some keyboards Korg & Roland have made. Aftertouch was my single favorite keybed feature in the 80s & 90s. But in the 2000s, it's far less important. The reason is modern synths like the Kronos, Montage & Fantom poorly support aftertouch in the various sound collections available for them. If your an expert programmer, than I guess your good. Older instruments very creatively used it for various effects, and the Korg M1 sounds both from Korg & 3rd party perhaps best supported aftertouch of any of them. Today I gig with the MODX6 & my Axiom 61. I run my Korg, Rolands and many other synths as software and I get my aftertouch from my Axiom, which I could also trigger the MODX from if I ever found any decent sounds that greatly benefited from aftertouch. Again, great video Woody.
I thought the introduction to action would be a bit different, thanks for surprising me. :) My intro would be something like, less than 61 keys will limit you, the best mini keyboard is yet to be made, if something looks like a toy then use it like a toy and have fun. Apart from that, there are 3 major types of key mech, and I would recommend every type as "the right tool for the job": 1. Synth action is light and allows you to play fast, and in solos etc. you'd like to focus on pitch/mod wheel and turn off velocity sensitivity. These require accurate finger placement to avoid the occasional error, but allow quick glissandos and sharp triggering - velocity and aftertouch synth action keys retain most of the expression in your fingers. 2. Organ action is semi-light and allows you to play at medium tempo as well as do knuckle drags and similar techniques. 3. Weighted keys are the most "forgiving" and are good for strong, trained hands but require slower play. Virtually no weighted synth keyboards are close to the weight of a piano or grand piano. Another benefit is that you can rest your fingers quite heavily on the keys and still trigger them with great timing - human fingers want something to push against. The downside is that some passages are impossible to play. This means that depending on what you play, you need up to 3 different MIDI keyboards, you can't buy just 1 because just 1 can only ever have one type of key mech.
Also... polyphonic aftertouch, release velocity, and some new keybeds that allow pitch bending/modulating individual notes for MPE support. Many considerations.
Must, resist, urge to troll… 😁 Those are fairly advanced (expensive) features for beginners. Cool follow up topics once you decide which “road” you are going down, though, such as classical piano or authentic organ or orchestral scoring. Or, you’re just happy for a while to attach a USB cord to a cheap arranger keyboard until you can get a better controller/synth.
98 percent of the time I use my keyboard to emulate other instruments over pianos, organs and other electronic keys. I like easy ways of altering articulations , aftertouch, velocity sensitivity, with, wheels, benders, sliders, pedals and they should easily map to you DAW and Vsts. I dont have all those right now, I have to automate expression in narly ways when recording The more knobs, wheels, benders, strips and pedals the better and of course a cozy key bed, light and soft will work. You are so correct about the pivot point, most midi controllers are not good for that either, but they have the knobs. If one is inclined to play a piano, better get the full 88 weighted keys or just get a real piano, they are cheap, often free, just need space. I always liked the feel of of the Yamaha P45, 115 For some reason they currently cost a fortune in Canada and they are pretty old.
Great topic and great discussion here in the comments! I would also add to the list a couple more things to consider: velocity curve by which I mean how well the keyboard transmits velocity, i.e. can you easily produce 1-127 or is it more like 40-110; also, how different are black and white keys regarding velocity; also, aftertouch activation on black and white keys - sometimes on black keys aftertouch is even harder to engage! and, lastly, the most esoteric thing out there which is release velocity :) I'm not sure there are any keyboards in production which transmit this :) I'd like to echo someone in the comments saying it would be great to see a second instalment of this video where you'd share your experience playing different keyboards you've owned :) I've also been thinking about somehow quantifying all this stuff. Like, we can easily measure key width and length, key travel too. But really great measurements would be touch weight and especially the ratio of touch weight at the fallboard to touch weight at the key tip! These could be measured even in a store when trying different keyboards and would really help people with no stores around. I feel really sad that internet marketing has brought us to the point when the really important aspects of the product get overlooked because they are hard to quantify and therefore sell, and are substituted with more features, and even more features, and even more useless features. And at the same time all the info we get from the manufacturer about the keybed is that it is 'touch-sensitive'. Or 'full size' which is almost never the case, except for digital pianos. It is overwhelmingly frustrating and disheartening. Okay, end of rant! :)
My favourite keyboard action by a mile is the Deepmind 6 and 12....so nice to play makes my expensive Nord Lead A1 action feel cheap and nasty no matter how great the A1 sounds. I would love a midi controller with the action of the Deepmind or a 61 key hammer action controller for piano playing with limited space for rehearsals (88 for gigs). Kronos and Nautilus actions are very nice. The old keyboards with the Yamaha FS keybed (DX7, Motif, M1, O1W etc) were great.
Helpful and informative indeed Woody. And may I add you have a very pleasant way of explaining and a very pleasant (easily understandable) voice! I bought some courses online which were almost worthless because I just could not understand the mumbling voices...Following you!
From what I understand, the Yamaha FS keybed (as used in the DX7, Korg M1, Korg Triton and others) and the Fatar TP/8 are the best non hammer action keybeds, with the Fatar TP/9S (as used in the NI Kontrol S series that Woody is using) also being highly respectable.
It's surprising how long these mechanisms last on the market, the TP/9S is also the mechanism in my Korg Karma (2001) and N364 (1996). Another thing to note here that is that there's a bit more to the feel of a keyboard than the mechanism alone. Even the two Korg chassis I own are a bit different especially in the sound department, and I've seen people express distaste for the Karma because the action is completely unweighted, unlike some other implementations of the TP/9S.
Another thing to consider is the type of pick-up switches. Velocity sensitive beds have 2 per key. One is hit first, then the second, and the time between makes the velocity. Roland uses rubber pads for it, like in your Game&Watch or Playstation controller. Although they work great when in good condition, they can get pretty dirty and defective, the rubber might get dry, the graphite contacts less conducting and the copper on the PCB underneath corroded. They are hard to replace/clean/repair, especially when the board is corroded. The DX7/M1 approach is 3 small metal sheets with contacts. These have a way longer lifespan, easy to clean, but be careful not to bend them, although you can bend them back, it is hard to get them exactly as before. The third switch model I found is the type used in a Philicorda organ. There are 3 wires along the length of the board, and each key has 2 "tines", not sound generating as in a Rhodes, but little sticks that hit the three wires. These are giving a long life, but they can get really dirty, they are magnets for spider webs and hair balls. In all situations, a toothbrush is your friend to clean contacts.
Some nice budget vintage synths built like a tank with good keybeds: - Korg T2 (76 keys) - Roland D10/D20 (same as D50 but 1/4th the price) - Ensoniq EPS (individual aftertouch levels!)
I learned about the pivot point the hard way. I bought a Roland A49 and it was fine for a while but I noticed I can't get consistent velocity when playing advanced chords with black keys. I compared the behavior on a Korg Kross and a Yamaha and found the A49 is hard to press on the back of the keys. Then about noise: I had a Yamaha EW410 and the keyboard on that is considerably noisy compared to the Korg Kross and Yamaha PSR-S775
I have been playing on an A-49 for a few months and it feels robust and is fine for bass lines and lead, Unfortunately, now that I am playing complex chords I am hating the black keys. I need longer keys but I also want them to be light. I guess that is too much to ask. @@WoodyPianoShack
I like the subject. Great explanation. With chance to expand with 2 or even more chapters (how each mechanism try to imitate a real piano, labels like medeli or Fatar,...)
Good job covering the importance of the pivot point and overall key lengths, for me it is the deciding factor. Try reading reviews for some keyboard you know has rock hard keys at the top and nobody would mention it. Not sure how someone can play it and not care.
Absolutely true . I have just made this exact mistake with a purchase of an MPC key 61. Great sounds but with complex chords I’m losing about 30% of my harmony. It’s been very frustrating- so much so that after 2 months of ownership it’s going on eBay . A real shame - but you’re right I would never have thought of this . I owned a DX7 and a D50 and a Juno 60 many years ago as you correctly point out - not an issue . I’m now looking at 61 note controllers with a view to using plugins on an iPad Pro for live performance. I need a relatively simple board with aftertouch (mono is fine ) . I’ve been looking at the new Korg Stage 61 and the NI S61 MK2 and an older Roland a800 pro - can you recommend any of these ? Many thanks !
I have a Kurzweil PC88. I don't know what kind of keybed is inside, but it feels like the upright piano my parents had at home. I have trouble playing a lot of synths. They just feel very flimsy. I was given a non working PC88 ( the mother board is fried) that I keep in case anything like keys or knobs break. I don't know what I will do if my good one ever dies. I take turns using my PC88 and my midi pick up equipped Les Paul guitar, as my midi controllers. I run them both through a Stienberg interface into my Cubase equipped DAW. Works for me. Cheers.
From My experience and from the keyboards I own from 80s to 2020s keybeds are not random they mostly all fit into either mini keys or standard same size.
I love a heavy, meaty action and have never found a decent DP action in something portable. The closest to decent (for me) was my old Korg SP250. But for gigging, to my surprise, I've found the new Casio Smart-Scaled Hammer II is actually not too bad for my type of music: pop, rock, blues, soul. I've never coped with Yamaha's GHS action - I sold my P125 for that reason.
Still no better synth action keybed made after the D X 7. Another important factor about that keybed is that it's lead-balanced, so the keys don't spring back as quick.
And some Rolands have a weight glue problem, that can ruin your classic synth pretty badly. I think their Frankensyzer (JD-800) was one of the most serious affected models.
The mechanical aspects are often underrated, quite nice explaination of the lever principle. The longer the better because the moment at the pivot point equals force times the length of the lever arm. It's the same priciple as with a nut cracker or a diving board in a swimming pool. The longer the leaver the easier is it to crack the nut. However the bending stress of the keys is important too. Having a wooden reinforcement in a key is great as it's good under bending stresses (a combination of compression and tension simultantiously in the cross section). Plastic's can degrade sometimes, the UV-radation of sunlight can cause it to become brittle over time. Sunlight can also cause light couloured plastics to yellow as well. I wonder if someone ever had this problem with keyboards. It's common with old computers.
hi dyko, yeah, keep your keys out of the sun! i heard somewhere that plastic can discolour even when kept in the box, due to reaction with polystyrene packaging!
Super informative video about keybeds and keyboard action. It is actually pretty hard to get a good master midi keyboard with great action. I loved the keyboard of my Triton Classic, struggling to find a keyboard with similar feeling.
I totally agree on all the points. As a final result midi controllers are usually with lower quality keybeds than good synthesizers. My old Korg MS20 and Kronos or Yamaha Montage7 are miles better than any midi controller. I think that Native Kontrol s 61 mkII, like the one you use in the video, is the best among midi controllers in the market.
I have the 49 key version that’s collecting dust. Reason for that is I don’t use NI’s Maschine’s DAW setup anymore. And while you can switch this keyboard to midi, it’s quite lacking in features in that mode. My best keyboards are the Cobalt 8X with its Fatar keybed, which is really great, and my Fantom 6, which is good, but imho the Fatar is a bit better.
@@xp50player Can't say I have tried those (and I'm probably not even worthy, lol), but they certainly have a good reputation. For mere mortals with synths that can work with 61 keys I think the Argon 8X and Cobalt 8X are a great deal with a great Fatar keybed for a great price.
very true, for some reason the midi controllers are inferior, platicky but perhaps due to pressure to produce and sell cheaply, I for one would welcome and purchase any high-quality controller with great action and metal construction. sadly none exist.
The worst-est thing is, with online retailing so prevalent, it has become very difficult to see these instruments in person, inspect them, hear the sound and test the action. I have an outlet of a national music gear chain in my town. They sell at competitive online prices. They do not like tire kickers and picky customers. They probably would rather have you just buy something and bring it back if you don't like it than to have an associate spend time with you. I was able to try a model of keyboard at an out-of-town store with the same action and sound chip as the one I am interested in. My priority is acoustic piano emulation. I have an 88-key keyboard at home but I want a 61-key portable. I bought two used, sold them and got my money back to apply to the purchase of something better. It is hard to get accurate information. The amount of research you have to do to get a clear idea about what the characteristics of some particular instrument are is astounding.
The best controllers I've ever played have been the Yamaha MM6 and the Roland A800Pro. The WORST was the ~2018 semi-weighted M-Audio Keystation 88. I believe they've since updated it.
Am I the only person who is bugged by the limited ability of velocity sensitivity to mimic the force sensitivity of an acoustic piano? I know my piano teacher has the top-of-the-range Yamaha upright but even though I'm only at grade 3 it really bugs me on digital pianos that adding arm weight or shoulder weight doesn't have the same effect. Unfortunately my music room is inaccessible to a real upright but I've yet to find a better digital piano. It's not that I'm fussy about synth keyboards - I'm just as happy playing the horrible rubbery mini keys of the MicroKORG as any other keyboard. The Yamaha Reface mini keys are actually quite nice.
It should be easy to tweek the velocity sensitivity and aftertouch on all these inventions, it often calls for digging deep into the manual to change it out to suite ones fancy to customize playing styles. It rarely is, but where is a will there is a way Almost every modern keyboard has a 'software librarian' to tweek and fine tune these settings. I liked the Korg minilogue cheap keys but heck it has 7 ARM processors, more processing power than a lot of cellphones, with a better midi controller many things are possible :)
Great video. Thank you Woody! I have a DX7 and a SY77 as well, they’ve a fantastic keyboard. The Modx is good, but I think the Montage is better. For example the CS1x (Yamaha as well) is something different, nothing to do with them, it seams a “cheap” keyboard (and I think it definatly is), but well…. sounds ‘re not so bad: “it has something”. Fortunately I can play it via midi, from the DX7.
no doubt the montage is better than modx, mont has one of the finest synth keybeds on the market! dx7 only transmits max velocity 100, which is an issue for controller but I don't deny the keys feel great.
The Montage keyboards is very good and comparable to the DX7 or SY77. Keep in mind the Montage costs double the price of the MODX and weighs twice as much for the same sounds. As a gigging musician, I'd pay more for a MODX than a Montage if I had to. My MODX6 is also way more compact than most 61 keyboards, which I also really appreciate. The MODX keybed is not bad at all, despite what some say. I have premium keybeds setup right next to it like my Korg M1, but I rarely feel the need to MIDI to it just to get a nicer feel, but I have tried it and it's easy to do.
Having explored keyboards for well over a year I have found it impossible to get the perfect keyboard. At some point you are going to have to compromise somewhere. Although, my ideal keyboard should have 73/76 keys, I ended up with an 88 keys keyboard. My Dexibell is perfect apart from the 88 keys. As always, a great video from you! Thanks for making it!
yes, you're right, compromises may have to be made, and of course, you might even need two or more keyboards for different playing styles, instruments or situations.
I have had an M-Audio Oxygen 61 (pretty good for a budget keyboard) Akai Advance 61 (absolutely horrible keybed) and now i have the Native S61 MK2 for synths and a Native S88 MK2 for piano/orchestral instruments. I haven't owned any 3000$ workstations so i can't say what they are like but i can warmly recommend the Native S pianos.
Woody...high, enjoy your videos. I wanted to ask you what you thought about equalization for keyboards and what you recommend using? I find that I get to a place on my keys and they don't, sound as acoustic as I,d like them to be!
hello barbara, well, i never actually use eq, I just take the sound however it comes out of the keyboard or synth, I don't think eq will help acoustic sounds to be more realistic, maybe jsut sound more pleasing through your headphones or speakers. is that what you meant with the question?
Worst action I've had is the Yamaha MX49. It sits in a cupboard. Second worst was the M-Audio Prokeys-88 circa 2009, which I gave away and replaced with a Yamaha CP50. The latter's action is gorgeous. I also have a Roland A-88 as the controller keyboard on my main production rig, but while usable, it isn't anywhere near as nice as the Yamaha CP50. I have a Remote SL Compact circa 2008, and for unweighted synth-action keys that is still my favourite. (I actually prefer my NI M32 to the MX49.)
Yamaha Reface has the best Minikeys in the game. Follwed short by he Arturia Keystep. Hav tryed a "Hammeraction" and havind a blast in exprssivnes for akustic instruments - a real step forward. The keys of DX7 and D50 are one of the best in "synthaction". Many brands using a keybed from "Fathar" (?) and they are always a good choice. Ceep up the good work and mny tnx.
I wish all key surfaces were textured as some people like me who are guitar players with callused fingers have a tendency to slip off the glossy keys or tend to slide to the next closest note. Ugh! My hands are also dry too which my keys end up like a skating rink if I don't use a special non greasy hand moisturizer. When I bought my Korg workstation, I had no idea the 88 key were weighted whereas the 73 key was not. And now I find myself in the market for a Studiologic SL88 Grand Keyboard Controller. An expensive toy considering it has no onboard sounds. However, with the sheer insanity going on in the world and the upcoming food shortages, a keyboard may be the last thing I need hahaha.
Well, most synths/keyboards have Fatar keybeds, which may be excellent or less excellent but never really bad. My favourite is the Prophet Rev2 keybed. I‘m constantly struggling with Roland keybeds. On the D-50 and JP-80 the action is OK, but you need a ridiculous amount of pressure for the aftertouch. What is this good for? The piano action of the RD-2000 is also basically OK, but the travel is way too short. It feels like a weighted typewriter action but not a piano.
Concerning key width:: the video Piano's darkest secret (spoiler) is about this. You may overlook one aspect: people with smaller hands (that includes most women) can't play chords that contain whole octaves. Smaller/narrower keys will increase your reach. But larger fingers will get crammed. Now I can imagine for acoustic pianos it is very unattractive to make them in S/M/L/XL sizes, but for keyboards I think there's a market share for narrower keys. Maybe mainly in pink with daisies? ;-) Anyway, more people will be able to play more intricate chords.
interesting point on finding the keyboard size to fit your hands, thanks! myself, I tend to just modify the chords I'm playing, but perhaps more of a thing when playing strict classical?
@@WoodyPianoShack I think you might be right, but for instance the tune of TV-show Cheers (that was in commercial over here). Or 'A thousand miles' by Vanessa Carlton.
Was really disappointed in the insane noiselevel of the Hydrasynth Deluxe Keybed, when it arrived the other day. Had to return it with a bleeding heart. Poly Aftertouch isn't everything!
it was just loaned to me, a but too advanced for what I needed, I returned it and got the launchkey! yeah, i enjoy the NI, it's all I have at the moment.
IMHO, I've found nothing in the "affordable" category any better than the Studiologic SL88 Grand ( ~$1100) which is my keys of choice - genuinely feels like a real piano - and the SL88 Studio (~ $550). Both are controllers - no built-in sounds. Cheers, Cliff
Nice for those going to buy something new. I'm sitting on the M-audio brand for now... There not perfect but fit the bill for my type of playing. Cheap, but still good build quality... Would not advice the keystation pro 88, there is some problem there that makes it break easy. Mini keys are ideal for in the studio. I like to seperate my Vsti's on many different small sized mini controllers. It just makes it easyer to organize stuff out on the desk... These days I do have problems with cheaper versions of flagship synths. The Nautilus and Modx for example have keybeds that do not feel / sound trustworthy. There going to far with compromises on price... Would love to pay 300 euros more, if they put some more quaility inside there....
Keyboards are not all different sizes, Most keybeds 95% are Standard width or Mini keys. I have a 90s Yamaha and its keys are identical size to the Aturia Keylab essential. Yamaha mini keys where great back in 80s good quality I have a Yamaha pss 570 vs the modern a Novation MiniNova with terrible keys.
About that mechanical noise : that Korg Kross 2 61 is really one of the worst out there. The 88 key version is fine, but the 61 is plastic fantastic clickety clack, it's like playing on an old typewriter... It's a shame, really, because it's a cracking synth otherwise.
If i had alot of money i would have a Yamaha C 80, mini moog, and a Yamaha DX1, DX1 is rare and might set you back hundreds of thousands, I'm not sure of the state of them to play.
My preference is 2 or more manuals, 61-key, waterfall, as I play mostly organ. My Hammond keybeds where my favorites until I got my Viscount Cantorum Trio. 🥰
Tried a bunch of "semi weighted" keyboards the other day and IMHO they're borderline a scam, they bear little resemblance to weighted keys and the feel wasn't all that great. The more expensive unweighted ones were at least more pleasant and not in my opinion any less like a piano (neither were).
I think the KX88 piano style keys has the same type of keybed as the DX7, I am not sure about the KX76's synth keybed. I wonder if the PF series has the same keybed.
You know, it's ironic, but I have a 1970's Hammond with dual keyboards and they are not velocity sensitive - yet I find those sounds, (very few of them) iconic. I find that the lack of such expression lets me focus on composition, since I am innately a "never play it twice" kind of guy. I like the nearly perfect feel of the keybeds and slightly reduced size very much, and of course they have the hammond quality of being expressive in a uniquely organ fashion, with knuckle trills and playing very easy. I just ordered an A61 as an entry into the midi world and hope I don't get distracted from my musical mission of keeping it simple.
The Yamaha DX7II and Korg M1 share the same keybed made by Yamaha and I think it’s still one of the best synth keybeds ever as far as feel. I also love my Korg Kronos 2 61 key keybed.
thanks for pointing that out, interesting, yeah all 3, m1, d50, dx7 had fab actions, as did the later motifs
Totally agree. I love the action on my Korg M1.
I've found DX-7 action can vary. Could have to do with maintenance. My other Korg M1 I bought used has much worse action than my original one. Not sure why, or what I can do about it. I think maybe the contacts could be dirty or something.
@@classicarcadeamusementpark4242 I completely disassembled my M1 keybed, cleaned everything and re-greased all the keys. Took a whole Saturday, but the result was amazing and it plays like new. I used Finish Line Extreme Flouro grease used for bicycle gears from Amazon.
@@peterldelong Thanks for your comment. I'll have to consider doing that.
A few years ago, I could never imagine being without my Korg M1. However, a few years ago I switch to exclusively using Korg's software version of the M1 on my laptop, and I haven't really missed my M1 all that much. I use an Axiom 61 MIDI controller keyboard with it, which works great except I'm not a fan of the sharp edges on the keys but I can live with it. As for the sound, it's totally there.
Both of my M1's the the awesome Invision Plus 1 boards added. I really wish there was a way to include those samples in Korg's VST of the M1. That may be the think making me want to keep my M1's. Otherwise I'd probably sell them, but I need to get them in good working order again. Also hoping the value will go up more like other classics of the same time period that have. I do love the M1 keybed though.
@@classicarcadeamusementpark4242 You’ll need an awesome wife to perform that work as well. She took all of the keys to the kitchen and hand washed each in Dawn, then used the air compressor to dry them thoroughly (I have traps and a filter on the output of the compressor so no oil or water in the air stream).
Amazing insights!
I happened to watch your video on how to select the number of keys.
Put together, they provide a comprehensive checklist for a new buyer like me who has no experience of any keyboard whatsoever!
The Indian music does not emphasize polyphony or harmony (it focuses on melody and ornamentation).
So the players do not need to position their fingers near the hinges.
(For Indian music, a harmonium is used traditionally.)
Thanks to your video, now I have learned about the importance of this factor for other genres of music!
The best video in whole internet ! and I've seen many many videos about keyboards or keybed. 👏 Excelent!!
Hello Woody. A few things. My old Korg DW-8000 AND DSS-1 have what looks like lead inserts in each key, and in the front corner of the sharps.
Most importantly to pianists of which I am not, but the key 'escapement' or 'let off', which is a big part of acoustic hammer action. As you press an acoustic piano key slowly you will feel that last eight of an inch a 'slip' to the keybed. This is when the hammer has reached it's full swing to the strings and then falls back as the key continues to the keybed.
The Korg Kronos patented grand piano action has this off to a tee.
Also, as pipeorgan tech, working for the same builder for over 33 years now, we have what is called 'The American Guild of Organists' spec for the keyboards and where the pedalboard is set accordingly when building consoles. The key depths for this spec are always set at 3/8". Most electronic keyboards are also set to this. Thanks for your presentations 😊
Korg’s RH3 keybed used in the Kronos has no mechanical escapement.
@@xp50player Really? Ok, perhaps I should have said 'simulated' escapement. I have two Kronos 73's, and they most certainly have escapement 'feel' in their action. There is an easy way to prove that out, you sound like you may know, but have not discovered it in the Kronos. 😄
hi gary, thanks for filling in a few blanks, i knew there would be some aspects that I sould miss!
@@WoodyPianoShack You are very welcome Woody, I was more then happy to mention it. Best wishes with your continued work there at the Piano Shack 🎹.
That DW-8000 has a totally bonkers looking keybed. I know it is not loved by many, but man it looks awesome. It is the Lamborghini Countach of keybeds. Clunky and angular. Almost as if it is made from LEGO.
You don't fancy going back in time about 3 or 4 years and releasing these videos when I was trying to figure all this out, do you? Very useful and informative stuff! Good work!
thank you, this video is for the next generation of scott players!
Best ever synth action on a keyboard? IMO the Kawai K5000, which apparently has a Fatar (unweighted) keybed. There's just something so satisfying about how the action feels. 2nd place is the Yamaha DX7 II and high end 90s Korg synths such as the Trinity and Z1.
kawai very highly regarded indeed and i loved the dx7 too. i forgot i had made this vid :)
Nice to see you back again! Love that you’re as obsessed with the hinges as myself! I’ve never been able to play on anything with the pivot too close to the fingers. Dual or Triple sensor actions is also a consideration worth mentioning, at least when it comes to the digital pianos!
jonas, thanks for filling in some of the stuff I forgot, yeah, can't stand short key pivots, should be in the specs!
hinge points are what makes hammond 60s manuals so great to play
unfortunately, marketing for new midi controllers don't exactly mention these kind of specs
I bought a Roland RD-64 and I absolutely love this keyboard. Has great hammer action keys and feels amazing. Only cost me £350 secondhand a makes a perfect midi controller. I much prefer full-size keys.
rd64 was a real unusual setup, with 64 weighted, we never seen anything like it before or after, for that reason it's quite the gem!
This video really grabbed me, especially when Woody discusses hinges (fulcra) and key length. I currently have a Roland A-4 which, unfortunately has the hinge right at the wallboard. It is hard to press the keys unless you press away from the wallboard (see 12:50).
From the comments I see that the Yamaha DX7, Korg M1, and Roland D50 have keys that are both long and light but these are old models. I am in the market for a brand new keyboard to replace my A-4. Where can I find information about keybeds that fit my needs?
* Woody is demoing on a NI S61. Would that kb work for me?
* I noticed that the Kurzweil PC4-7 has just dropped $500 in price so it is now in my price range. I was thinking of pulling the trigger but I noticed on youtube videos that the keys seem to rotate about a hinge, though not visible, that is right at the wallboard. So, no!
I am now leaning toward the Yamaha CK-81 because the keys seem a little longer on the FSB keybed. Anybody have this keyboard?
Any help would be appreciated (especially if you are Woody).
Thanks in advance.
Do you mean Roland A-49? If so, the NI S61 (Fatar TP/9S) would be a fair bit nicer in quality, and semi-weighted. The keys are a fair bit shorter than TP/8 (various Nords) or Yamaha FS (DX7 et al.) but I'd say it's more than playable enough for a synth action.
As for the FSB action, it's much lower quality. Each octave is a single molded piece, and then the "hinge" and "spring" are provided by bending the plastic. No idea how it feels, but I'd worry about longevity at least.
@ozzyp97 Thank you. I am looking at the NI S61 but I am leaning toward the Dexibell VIVO S1. When I watch TH-cam videos of it in action the keys seem to be fairly long and the action is lighter. Best . . . J
Very informative video Woody. I think you've pointed out what I've been saying. You really have to try out a keyboard before buying it. Keybeds do vary, and it comes down to personal preference. Try before you buy.
I typically prefer 61 keys, and the Korg M1 keybed is the best I've encountered. The same keybed has been used in Yamaha and other models too. I used my M1's not only for the great internal sounds, but also as a MIDI controller for soft synths and sound modules like my MOTIF ES rack, DX-7 rack, Roland JV-1080 Vintage Synth module, etc. I have keyboards with 25, 49, 61, 76 & 88 hammer action keys in my collection of various quality keybeds.
I was amazed after using my M1 keybed for decades (about the best one available) that I had no trouble adapting to the keybed in my Yamaha MODX6 that many people say isn't that great. I think it's much better than a lot of people give it credit for. I've played lots of keyboards with worse keybeds, including some from Korg, Roland and others. The main thing is, does it affect your playing? That's what really matters. Not how nice or how premium the keys feel. The MODX6 keys are maybe 1mm shorter than some keybeds. This doesn't bother me at all, and even when playing it with my other 13 keyboards, I don't even feel the difference. It helps keep the keyboard a little more compact which I appreciate, and less expensive to produce which I also appreciate vs paying double for the Montage and carrying twice the weight to my gigs.
The things that really annoy me are: Mini keys, and bouncy keybeds. I've found several Fatar keybeds way too bouncy and greatly annoying. I had to return one I bought that I otherwise liked. It felt like the keyboard came with a trampoline. My Casio CZ-101 I got in the mid 80s was quickly replaced with a CZ-1000 which had full size keys. No thanks to those mini keys. Some keybeds, like one of the Arturia Keylabs I tried (smaller version) had almost no resistance to the keys and they went completely flat just barely touching it. Terrible. My Axiom 61 MIDI controller has sharp edged keys. I was able to get used to it thankfully, otherwise great keyboard. I'm not a big fan of some of the Roland keybeds like those I own, or the new Fantom 0. But one of the worse keybeds in a $1000+ 61 key keyboards I've ever tried was the Korg Triton LE. The keys literally flex. They feel terrible, and like they would easily break off. Also stick out a lot. The cheap MODX6 feels like premium keys compared to some keyboards Korg & Roland have made.
Aftertouch was my single favorite keybed feature in the 80s & 90s. But in the 2000s, it's far less important. The reason is modern synths like the Kronos, Montage & Fantom poorly support aftertouch in the various sound collections available for them. If your an expert programmer, than I guess your good. Older instruments very creatively used it for various effects, and the Korg M1 sounds both from Korg & 3rd party perhaps best supported aftertouch of any of them. Today I gig with the MODX6 & my Axiom 61. I run my Korg, Rolands and many other synths as software and I get my aftertouch from my Axiom, which I could also trigger the MODX from if I ever found any decent sounds that greatly benefited from aftertouch.
Again, great video Woody.
Wow, you covered every aspect of a keyboard I can think of. Your explanation of hinge points is especially good!
I thought the introduction to action would be a bit different, thanks for surprising me. :) My intro would be something like, less than 61 keys will limit you, the best mini keyboard is yet to be made, if something looks like a toy then use it like a toy and have fun. Apart from that, there are 3 major types of key mech, and I would recommend every type as "the right tool for the job":
1. Synth action is light and allows you to play fast, and in solos etc. you'd like to focus on pitch/mod wheel and turn off velocity sensitivity. These require accurate finger placement to avoid the occasional error, but allow quick glissandos and sharp triggering - velocity and aftertouch synth action keys retain most of the expression in your fingers.
2. Organ action is semi-light and allows you to play at medium tempo as well as do knuckle drags and similar techniques.
3. Weighted keys are the most "forgiving" and are good for strong, trained hands but require slower play. Virtually no weighted synth keyboards are close to the weight of a piano or grand piano. Another benefit is that you can rest your fingers quite heavily on the keys and still trigger them with great timing - human fingers want something to push against. The downside is that some passages are impossible to play.
This means that depending on what you play, you need up to 3 different MIDI keyboards, you can't buy just 1 because just 1 can only ever have one type of key mech.
What about escapement, balanced vs graded hammer, and triple sensors per key for rapid retriggering?
Also... polyphonic aftertouch, release velocity, and some new keybeds that allow pitch bending/modulating individual notes for MPE support. Many considerations.
Must, resist, urge to troll… 😁
Those are fairly advanced (expensive) features for beginners. Cool follow up topics once you decide which “road” you are going down, though, such as classical piano or authentic organ or orchestral scoring. Or, you’re just happy for a while to attach a USB cord to a cheap arranger keyboard until you can get a better controller/synth.
yes, I'm grateful for the mentioning of some aspects that I forgot, I think I got most of them... but then the video would have been even longer :)
98 percent of the time I use my keyboard to emulate other instruments over pianos, organs and other electronic keys. I like easy ways of altering articulations , aftertouch, velocity sensitivity, with, wheels, benders, sliders, pedals and they should easily map to you DAW and Vsts. I dont have all those right now, I have to automate expression in narly ways when recording
The more knobs, wheels, benders, strips and pedals the better and of course a cozy key bed, light and soft will work. You are so correct about the pivot point, most midi controllers are not good for that either, but they have the knobs.
If one is inclined to play a piano, better get the full 88 weighted keys or just get a real piano, they are cheap, often free, just need space. I always liked the feel of of the Yamaha P45, 115 For some reason they currently cost a fortune in Canada and they are pretty old.
Great topic and great discussion here in the comments! I would also add to the list a couple more things to consider: velocity curve by which I mean how well the keyboard transmits velocity, i.e. can you easily produce 1-127 or is it more like 40-110; also, how different are black and white keys regarding velocity; also, aftertouch activation on black and white keys - sometimes on black keys aftertouch is even harder to engage! and, lastly, the most esoteric thing out there which is release velocity :) I'm not sure there are any keyboards in production which transmit this :)
I'd like to echo someone in the comments saying it would be great to see a second instalment of this video where you'd share your experience playing different keyboards you've owned :)
I've also been thinking about somehow quantifying all this stuff. Like, we can easily measure key width and length, key travel too. But really great measurements would be touch weight and especially the ratio of touch weight at the fallboard to touch weight at the key tip! These could be measured even in a store when trying different keyboards and would really help people with no stores around. I feel really sad that internet marketing has brought us to the point when the really important aspects of the product get overlooked because they are hard to quantify and therefore sell, and are substituted with more features, and even more features, and even more useless features. And at the same time all the info we get from the manufacturer about the keybed is that it is 'touch-sensitive'. Or 'full size' which is almost never the case, except for digital pianos. It is overwhelmingly frustrating and disheartening. Okay, end of rant! :)
My favourite keyboard action by a mile is the Deepmind 6 and 12....so nice to play makes my expensive Nord Lead A1 action feel cheap and nasty no matter how great the A1 sounds. I would love a midi controller with the action of the Deepmind or a 61 key hammer action controller for piano playing with limited space for rehearsals (88 for gigs). Kronos and Nautilus actions are very nice. The old keyboards with the Yamaha FS keybed (DX7, Motif, M1, O1W etc) were great.
Alpha Juno 2, same keybed as the Roland D50 has an amazing keybed
i did not know that, but yeah, d50 has wonderful keys.
Helpful and informative indeed Woody. And may I add you have a very pleasant way of explaining and a very pleasant (easily understandable) voice! I bought some courses online which were almost worthless because I just could not understand the mumbling voices...Following you!
Roland Juno DS88, great keybed for pianists, great sounds, built like a tank, great price!
From what I understand, the Yamaha FS keybed (as used in the DX7, Korg M1, Korg Triton and others) and the Fatar TP/8 are the best non hammer action keybeds, with the Fatar TP/9S (as used in the NI Kontrol S series that Woody is using) also being highly respectable.
It's surprising how long these mechanisms last on the market, the TP/9S is also the mechanism in my Korg Karma (2001) and N364 (1996). Another thing to note here that is that there's a bit more to the feel of a keyboard than the mechanism alone. Even the two Korg chassis I own are a bit different especially in the sound department, and I've seen people express distaste for the Karma because the action is completely unweighted, unlike some other implementations of the TP/9S.
Another thing to consider is the type of pick-up switches. Velocity sensitive beds have 2 per key. One is hit first, then the second, and the time between makes the velocity. Roland uses rubber pads for it, like in your Game&Watch or Playstation controller. Although they work great when in good condition, they can get pretty dirty and defective, the rubber might get dry, the graphite contacts less conducting and the copper on the PCB underneath corroded. They are hard to replace/clean/repair, especially when the board is corroded. The DX7/M1 approach is 3 small metal sheets with contacts. These have a way longer lifespan, easy to clean, but be careful not to bend them, although you can bend them back, it is hard to get them exactly as before. The third switch model I found is the type used in a Philicorda organ. There are 3 wires along the length of the board, and each key has 2 "tines", not sound generating as in a Rhodes, but little sticks that hit the three wires. These are giving a long life, but they can get really dirty, they are magnets for spider webs and hair balls. In all situations, a toothbrush is your friend to clean contacts.
Some nice budget vintage synths built like a tank with good keybeds:
- Korg T2 (76 keys)
- Roland D10/D20 (same as D50 but 1/4th the price)
- Ensoniq EPS (individual aftertouch levels!)
I learned about the pivot point the hard way. I bought a Roland A49 and it was fine for a while but I noticed I can't get consistent velocity when playing advanced chords with black keys. I compared the behavior on a Korg Kross and a Yamaha and found the A49 is hard to press on the back of the keys.
Then about noise: I had a Yamaha EW410 and the keyboard on that is considerably noisy compared to the Korg Kross and Yamaha PSR-S775
roland a49 is far from the best, i would agree, even though the marketing seems to suggest it is a premium action.
I have been playing on an A-49 for a few months and it feels robust and is fine for bass lines and lead, Unfortunately, now that I am playing complex chords I am hating the black keys. I need longer keys but I also want them to be light. I guess that is too much to ask.
@@WoodyPianoShack
I like the subject. Great explanation. With chance to expand with 2 or even more chapters (how each mechanism try to imitate a real piano, labels like medeli or Fatar,...)
yes, there's potential to go deeper on some of these topics for sure!
Good job covering the importance of the pivot point and overall key lengths, for me it is the deciding factor. Try reading reviews for some keyboard you know has rock hard keys at the top and nobody would mention it. Not sure how someone can play it and not care.
totally agree it should get a lot more attention, i can only guess that some reviewers are sticking to the simple key signatures.
Absolutely true . I have just made this exact mistake with a purchase of an MPC key 61. Great sounds but with complex chords I’m losing about 30% of my harmony. It’s been very frustrating- so much so that after 2 months of ownership it’s going on eBay . A real shame - but you’re right I would never have thought of this . I owned a DX7 and a D50 and a Juno 60 many years ago as you correctly point out - not an issue .
I’m now looking at 61 note controllers with a view to using plugins on an iPad Pro for live performance.
I need a relatively simple board with aftertouch (mono is fine ) .
I’ve been looking at the new Korg Stage 61 and the NI S61 MK2 and an older Roland a800 pro - can you recommend any of these ? Many thanks !
Very nice video, thanks for sharing!!👍👍👍
I have a Kurzweil PC88. I don't know what kind of keybed is inside, but it feels like the upright piano my parents had at home. I have trouble playing a lot of synths. They just feel very flimsy. I was given a non working PC88 ( the mother board is fried) that I keep in case anything like keys or knobs break. I don't know what I will do if my good one ever dies. I take turns using my PC88 and my midi pick up equipped Les Paul guitar, as my midi controllers. I run them both through a Stienberg interface into my Cubase equipped DAW. Works for me. Cheers.
From My experience and from the keyboards I own from 80s to 2020s keybeds are not random they mostly all fit into either mini keys or standard same size.
I love a heavy, meaty action and have never found a decent DP action in something portable. The closest to decent (for me) was my old Korg SP250. But for gigging, to my surprise, I've found the new Casio Smart-Scaled Hammer II is actually not too bad for my type of music: pop, rock, blues, soul. I've never coped with Yamaha's GHS action - I sold my P125 for that reason.
Still no better synth action keybed made after the D X 7.
Another important factor about that keybed is that it's lead-balanced, so the keys don't spring back as quick.
great point about the weights, something I overlooked to mention.
And some Rolands have a weight glue problem, that can ruin your classic synth pretty badly. I think their Frankensyzer (JD-800) was one of the most serious affected models.
The mechanical aspects are often underrated, quite nice explaination of the lever principle. The longer the better because the moment at the pivot point equals force times the length of the lever arm. It's the same priciple as with a nut cracker or a diving board in a swimming pool. The longer the leaver the easier is it to crack the nut. However the bending stress of the keys is important too. Having a wooden reinforcement in a key is great as it's good under bending stresses (a combination of compression and tension simultantiously in the cross section). Plastic's can degrade sometimes, the UV-radation of sunlight can cause it to become brittle over time. Sunlight can also cause light couloured plastics to yellow as well. I wonder if someone ever had this problem with keyboards. It's common with old computers.
hi dyko, yeah, keep your keys out of the sun! i heard somewhere that plastic can discolour even when kept in the box, due to reaction with polystyrene packaging!
Super informative video about keybeds and keyboard action. It is actually pretty hard to get a good master midi keyboard with great action. I loved the keyboard of my Triton Classic, struggling to find a keyboard with similar feeling.
As I know all the Tritons was built with the DX7 keybed, except the 88key
I totally agree on all the points.
As a final result midi controllers are usually with lower quality keybeds than good synthesizers. My old Korg MS20 and Kronos or Yamaha Montage7 are miles better than any midi controller.
I think that Native Kontrol s 61 mkII, like the one you use in the video, is the best among midi controllers in the market.
I have the 49 key version that’s collecting dust. Reason for that is I don’t use NI’s Maschine’s DAW setup anymore. And while you can switch this keyboard to midi, it’s quite lacking in features in that mode. My best keyboards are the Cobalt 8X with its Fatar keybed, which is really great, and my Fantom 6, which is good, but imho the Fatar is a bit better.
Kawai makes some good ones.
@@xp50player Can't say I have tried those (and I'm probably not even worthy, lol), but they certainly have a good reputation. For mere mortals with synths that can work with 61 keys I think the Argon 8X and Cobalt 8X are a great deal with a great Fatar keybed for a great price.
very true, for some reason the midi controllers are inferior, platicky but perhaps due to pressure to produce and sell cheaply, I for one would welcome and purchase any high-quality controller with great action and metal construction. sadly none exist.
The worst-est thing is, with online retailing so prevalent, it has become very difficult to see these instruments in person, inspect them, hear the sound and test the action. I have an outlet of a national music gear chain in my town. They sell at competitive online prices. They do not like tire kickers and picky customers. They probably would rather have you just buy something and bring it back if you don't like it than to have an associate spend time with you. I was able to try a model of keyboard at an out-of-town store with the same action and sound chip as the one I am interested in. My priority is acoustic piano emulation. I have an 88-key keyboard at home but I want a 61-key portable. I bought two used, sold them and got my money back to apply to the purchase of something better. It is hard to get accurate information. The amount of research you have to do to get a clear idea about what the characteristics of some particular instrument are is astounding.
The best controllers I've ever played have been the Yamaha MM6 and the Roland A800Pro. The WORST was the ~2018 semi-weighted M-Audio Keystation 88. I believe they've since updated it.
Why didn't you like it?
Am I the only person who is bugged by the limited ability of velocity sensitivity to mimic the force sensitivity of an acoustic piano? I know my piano teacher has the top-of-the-range Yamaha upright but even though I'm only at grade 3 it really bugs me on digital pianos that adding arm weight or shoulder weight doesn't have the same effect. Unfortunately my music room is inaccessible to a real upright but I've yet to find a better digital piano.
It's not that I'm fussy about synth keyboards - I'm just as happy playing the horrible rubbery mini keys of the MicroKORG as any other keyboard. The Yamaha Reface mini keys are actually quite nice.
It should be easy to tweek the velocity sensitivity and aftertouch on all these inventions, it often calls for digging deep into the manual to change it out to suite ones fancy to customize playing styles. It rarely is, but where is a will there is a way
Almost every modern keyboard has a 'software librarian' to tweek and fine tune these settings. I liked the Korg minilogue cheap keys but heck it has 7 ARM processors, more processing power than a lot of cellphones, with a better midi controller many things are possible :)
Great video. Thank you Woody! I have a DX7 and a SY77 as well, they’ve a fantastic keyboard. The Modx is good, but I think the Montage is better. For example the CS1x (Yamaha as well) is something different, nothing to do with them, it seams a “cheap” keyboard (and I think it definatly is), but well…. sounds ‘re not so bad: “it has something”. Fortunately I can play it via midi, from the DX7.
no doubt the montage is better than modx, mont has one of the finest synth keybeds on the market! dx7 only transmits max velocity 100, which is an issue for controller but I don't deny the keys feel great.
The Montage keyboards is very good and comparable to the DX7 or SY77. Keep in mind the Montage costs double the price of the MODX and weighs twice as much for the same sounds. As a gigging musician, I'd pay more for a MODX than a Montage if I had to. My MODX6 is also way more compact than most 61 keyboards, which I also really appreciate.
The MODX keybed is not bad at all, despite what some say. I have premium keybeds setup right next to it like my Korg M1, but I rarely feel the need to MIDI to it just to get a nicer feel, but I have tried it and it's easy to do.
Having explored keyboards for well over a year I have found it impossible to get the perfect keyboard. At some point you are going to have to compromise somewhere. Although, my ideal keyboard should have 73/76 keys, I ended up with an 88 keys keyboard. My Dexibell is perfect apart from the 88 keys. As always, a great video from you! Thanks for making it!
yes, you're right, compromises may have to be made, and of course, you might even need two or more keyboards for different playing styles, instruments or situations.
I have had an M-Audio Oxygen 61 (pretty good for a budget keyboard) Akai Advance 61 (absolutely horrible keybed) and now i have the Native S61 MK2 for synths and a Native S88 MK2 for piano/orchestral instruments.
I haven't owned any 3000$ workstations so i can't say what they are like but i can warmly recommend the Native S pianos.
how you liking the NI S61?
Woody...high, enjoy your videos. I wanted to ask you what you thought about equalization for keyboards and what you recommend using? I find that I get to a place on my keys and they don't, sound as acoustic as I,d like them to be!
hello barbara, well, i never actually use eq, I just take the sound however it comes out of the keyboard or synth, I don't think eq will help acoustic sounds to be more realistic, maybe jsut sound more pleasing through your headphones or speakers. is that what you meant with the question?
Worst action I've had is the Yamaha MX49. It sits in a cupboard. Second worst was the M-Audio Prokeys-88 circa 2009, which I gave away and replaced with a Yamaha CP50. The latter's action is gorgeous. I also have a Roland A-88 as the controller keyboard on my main production rig, but while usable, it isn't anywhere near as nice as the Yamaha CP50. I have a Remote SL Compact circa 2008, and for unweighted synth-action keys that is still my favourite. (I actually prefer my NI M32 to the MX49.)
Yamaha Reface has the best Minikeys in the game. Follwed short by he Arturia Keystep. Hav tryed a "Hammeraction" and havind a blast in exprssivnes for akustic instruments - a real step forward. The keys of DX7 and D50 are one of the best in "synthaction". Many brands using a keybed from "Fathar" (?) and they are always a good choice. Ceep up the good work and mny tnx.
yeah, agree that the refaces feel pretty good with decent quality going on my short experience in a music store!
It's Fatar. An Italian company.
I wish all key surfaces were textured as some people like me who are guitar players with callused fingers have a tendency to slip off the glossy keys or tend to slide to the next closest note. Ugh! My hands are also dry too which my keys end up like a skating rink if I don't use a special non greasy hand moisturizer. When I bought my Korg workstation, I had no idea the 88 key were weighted whereas the 73 key was not. And now I find myself in the market for a Studiologic SL88 Grand Keyboard Controller. An expensive toy considering it has no onboard sounds. However, with the sheer insanity going on in the world and the upcoming food shortages, a keyboard may be the last thing I need hahaha.
some people actually find gloss keys too "sticky" which can be a problem when playing fast passages, then the textured finishes actually help.
Woody, as always, great videos. I would have also talked about triggering points... specially for playing organ.
simply forgot about that, yes, agree, the number of sensors and the trigger points is a consideration
Well, most synths/keyboards have Fatar keybeds, which may be excellent or less excellent but never really bad. My favourite is the Prophet Rev2 keybed.
I‘m constantly struggling with Roland keybeds. On the D-50 and JP-80 the action is OK, but you need a ridiculous amount of pressure for the aftertouch. What is this good for?
The piano action of the RD-2000 is also basically OK, but the travel is way too short. It feels like a weighted typewriter action but not a piano.
Concerning the hinges position/black keys; the channel Thepianoforever is very meticulous about this.
yes, he's done some interesting tests and has some opinions!
Great info
1.Kawai K5
2.Yamaha dx 7
3.Korg Triton
4.korg o1/w.
could you please recommend a 25 keys midi keyboard?
Concerning key width:: the video Piano's darkest secret (spoiler) is about this. You may overlook one aspect: people with smaller hands (that includes most women) can't play chords that contain whole octaves. Smaller/narrower keys will increase your reach. But larger fingers will get crammed. Now I can imagine for acoustic pianos it is very unattractive to make them in S/M/L/XL sizes, but for keyboards I think there's a market share for narrower keys. Maybe mainly in pink with daisies? ;-) Anyway, more people will be able to play more intricate chords.
interesting point on finding the keyboard size to fit your hands, thanks! myself, I tend to just modify the chords I'm playing, but perhaps more of a thing when playing strict classical?
@@WoodyPianoShack I think you might be right, but for instance the tune of TV-show Cheers (that was in commercial over here). Or 'A thousand miles' by Vanessa Carlton.
Was really disappointed in the insane noiselevel of the Hydrasynth Deluxe Keybed, when it arrived the other day. Had to return it with a bleeding heart. Poly Aftertouch isn't everything!
Yes it is quite clanky but not bother me on headphones
What happened to your Novation SL61 MKIII. Seems you prefer the S40 NI.
it was just loaned to me, a but too advanced for what I needed, I returned it and got the launchkey! yeah, i enjoy the NI, it's all I have at the moment.
@@WoodyPianoShack Thank you Woody.
IMHO, I've found nothing in the "affordable" category any better than the Studiologic SL88 Grand ( ~$1100) which is my keys of choice - genuinely feels like a real piano - and the SL88 Studio (~ $550). Both are controllers - no built-in sounds. Cheers, Cliff
hi cliff, right, we're not quite there yet, maybe some of the high end hybrids kawais, even casio?
Nice for those going to buy something new. I'm sitting on the M-audio brand for now... There not perfect but fit the bill for my type of playing. Cheap, but still good build quality... Would not advice the keystation pro 88, there is some problem there that makes it break easy. Mini keys are ideal for in the studio. I like to seperate my Vsti's on many different small sized mini controllers. It just makes it easyer to organize stuff out on the desk... These days I do have problems with cheaper versions of flagship synths. The Nautilus and Modx for example have keybeds that do not feel / sound trustworthy. There going to far with compromises on price... Would love to pay 300 euros more, if they put some more quaility inside there....
Keyboards are not all different sizes, Most keybeds 95% are Standard width or Mini keys. I have a 90s Yamaha and its keys are identical size to the Aturia Keylab essential. Yamaha mini keys where great back in 80s good quality I have a Yamaha pss 570 vs the modern a Novation MiniNova with terrible keys.
About that mechanical noise : that Korg Kross 2 61 is really one of the worst out there. The 88 key version is fine, but the 61 is plastic fantastic clickety clack, it's like playing on an old typewriter... It's a shame, really, because it's a cracking synth otherwise.
If i had alot of money i would have a Yamaha C 80, mini moog, and a Yamaha DX1, DX1 is rare and might set you back hundreds of thousands, I'm not sure of the state of them to play.
My preference is 2 or more manuals, 61-key, waterfall, as I play mostly organ. My Hammond keybeds where my favorites until I got my Viscount Cantorum Trio. 🥰
WERE NOT GONNA TAKE IT . NO WE AINT GONNAT TAKE IT! lol nord electro placed with precision in this video . the trusty fatar TP 8O, ole trusty
Tried a bunch of "semi weighted" keyboards the other day and IMHO they're borderline a scam, they bear little resemblance to weighted keys and the feel wasn't all that great. The more expensive unweighted ones were at least more pleasant and not in my opinion any less like a piano (neither were).
I think the KX88 piano style keys has the same type of keybed as the DX7, I am not sure about the KX76's synth keybed. I wonder if the PF series has the same keybed.
The mini Nova has really crappie keys.
🌚🖤🎶