When f360 came out I loved the idea, applied for the Start-up license, exchanged some mails with them, got approved and began using it. After 6 or so months I really started to hate it- random issues, server errors, glitches, sketching, etc. And went back to a legal, commercial 2012 SW license. It's a much, much, much better program IMO not mentioning the fact that I do some client work and cloud storage is a heavy NDA violator.... Great channel, really enjoy the slow paced and in-depth videos
Thanks. The main reason I'm sticking with Fusion 360 is because of the CAM. For this project, the circuit board integration (Eagle is now built in) was also very useful. But I agree, the CAD is not up to the standards of a 10-year old version of SolidWorks.
I don't have permission to provide actual prices. But here is what I'll say. Rounding prices to the nearest $5K, we're talking roughly 15K for the mold made by Texlon and $15K for the mold made in China (plus about $5K for shipping and tariffs). Other quotes we got for molds in the US were closer to $45K.
@@JohnSL Thanks!! What about lead time? Is Texlon way faster? Why the Chinese mold, have you considered doing the manufacturing (injection molding) in China too? How did *that* compare?
Nice job. I'm surprised the toolmaker didn't catch the thin wall. 40 thou on that long a part is quite thin to fill. I worked in the consumer industry for 15 years, and we rarely made anything less than 80 thou (2mm), unless it was a rib for a boss. 2.5mm was a typical wall. For validating a design before tooling issue, we used in-house ObJet brand poly-jet machines. They are super accurate, about as good as an SLA, for quite a bit less cost. There are 3rd party rapid prototype houses that have these machines. Stratasys is one. I would never trust an FDM process for final checks before cutting steel. I think your fusion failure was due to all the surfaces you added converging to a point. I think if you had redefined the original top surface with the shape you wanted, rather than add that shape only on one side, it would have worked. Or, make the top thicker (by a lot), and then cut the new shape away using one sketched feature. Disclaimer, I can't stand fusion. I just switched from 20 years of Creo to Onshape at my dayjob. I like them both significantly more than Fusion. But Fusion has CAM and its price is so good.
Yes, I was surprised they didn't catch the thin wall. They probably could have made it work with a larger press, but I didn't like the thin section anyway--it's too flexible. For the larger throttle, there is a similar thin section over the bottom of the screen, but it was 0.04" thick. Generally I shoot for 0.08" minimum, as you mentioned. The interesting thing about the Fusion failures is that I could perform the exact same operations in SolidWorks without errors. There is one part I will be turning into an injection mold where I got stuck because I just couldn't get the draft I needed. I tried building the draft it, but some operations failed. And I tried adding draft later, and again Fusion 360 failed. So I think there solid model engine just isn't as capable as the parasolid engine used in SolidWorks. Since Fusion works 99% of the time for me, and I do a lot of CAM, I'm OK going back to mold older SolidWorks from time to time.
Thank you for the update. Waiting patiently for the final. Or feel free to send beta tests, I'm really good at finding issues, especially with software, LOL.
i wonder if maybe you coulda included the draft angle in the initial extrude taper angle? idk fusion360 can be super temperamental and there are things that should work but dont, but usually there's a workaround
I run into that same screw-hole diameter trouble when moving in and out of different design revisions. the screw itself will change but I forget which version uses the updated screw. anyway personally I'd rather just use SW or Inv from the start for an assembly like that, I just find the "local" programs easier with regard to mechanical assemblies. Fusion can do a lot of things but there's some modeling and assembly quirks that force jumping through hoops here and there. I'd rather not bother unless I specifically had a reason to use fusion, like cloud collaboration or something.
Yea, SW is much nicer for CAD. Fusion 360 is really good for CAM, and I also sometimes use the circuit board features. So the integration (hence the name Fusion) is keeping me using it most of the time.
Hey John! Thanks for another great vid! If you run into trouble in the future with fusion or if you want to know why this particular issue didn't want to work for ya, I'm happy to help.
Consider looking into an education-only license of SW which you can get for ~$20. Newer versions of SW have a really powerful Plastics simulation feature for designing injection molds. Even if you don't use it on products, (the license is non-commercial) I think it might be good content for the channel. Great video btw
This is for a commercial product, and many of the injection molded projects do produce a little income, so it probably doesn't meet the requirements. However, doing some educational videos on plastic simulation would be fun. I'll have to check it out.
Why not just stick with using the 2011 version of SW? Just saying it does everything you want it to do. do you need it to do anything else? The pictures you posted make that tool look like it made out of aluminum? On your screw hole pins I always spec them out as core pins that way if you need the a little bigger small taller shorter they can be taken out and ground to spec. Just a thought. Can I ask how much that tool cost you?? Love your videos!!!
Thanks. I replied to Nick's Stuff about cost. Most of the time Fusion 360 works well for me, and the CAM is really nice. I like being able to update the CAD and have the CAM easily update from that. Regarding the screw holes, it turns out they used a 0.093" diameter pin instead of 0.08" that I had in the CAD. They're going to grind them down to 0.076".
Ok, I’m an NCE guy, yeah I’m “narrow” minded, but train guys gotta “pull” together, right? (Yeah I hear the groans). There’s several ways to approach this in F360. Pardon if someone already suggested this. Given that you have an existing body. Go back in your timeline to when you originally extruded that body with draft (-3deg?). Add the additional desired thickness to your body extrusion to accommodate the thickest part of your new raised area. The entire body will increase in thickness by this amount. Now, without going forward in timeline create a new sketch on your longest side profile. Create a couple lines and a spline connected together to represent your desired profile at the desired height. These lines should extend to/past both ends of your body at the desired height. Let’s have some negative thoughts, eg we’re going to subtract a body form from your current drafted body. At this point, several options, one way is to create 3 more lines at the top of the newly sketched profile and then extrude a body and cut your drafted body in this case (punny). Reposition your timeline. Add fillets as desired. If you had existing fillets on the top edges you may need to suppress those features first. As always, YMMV.
I tried those approaches and Fusion 360 kept failing. The 3D engine in F360 just isn't as powerful as the one in SolidWorks. I've known this for some time, just never ran into it this badly.
@@JohnSL I recreated the body, diff dimensions in F360, put a fillet on top. Then did the steps described above, worked like a charm. if you like I can send you the example file and or screen shots if you drop me an email via linked in.
OK, OK, I'll put that on my backlog. I want to learn how to use the ejector mechanism and the top plate for higher clamping force. Then I think I'll know enough to do a full review. And the Arburg in the garage is getting closer to moving into my workshop.
I would've solved the draft problem with a triangular profile perpendicular to the side of the part with a 3° angle, and then swept it along the entire profile.
Hey John. I like your video because you remind me of myself. Although unlike yourself I am based in Shanghai, China, and literally run the shop floor and machine-tools here, in Shanghai. I'll have to disagree with your cost-per China-vs-USA... China remains far more competitive than anywhere else I've sourced out from. What you need to be aware of is the price when "Rep is On-Site" (being in China that is) is still roughly -75% to -80% lower than what you normally pay in the USA. Although I understand that you are sourcing remotely and the price may differ, giving you 'the impression' that its the same/similar. Needless to add; all of the consumer product outsourced in/to China has "Representatives on-site" dealing the cost of production. Trust me when I say the price is nowhere near the apocalyptic price range that American co has to offer. Yet. Will take a few decades for this competition to adjust...
Can you contact me via email (through the my Contact page here on TH-cam)? I'd like to dig a little more into the price difference you describe to see how what you're describing is different from my experience.
I have to agree with GT. I started a project in 2017, to get a simple cup handle molded, and I went to 10 different US based companies that either totally disregarded me, or quoted me such huge outlandish prices that it would be impossible for a lone person to have it done. The main issue was sales people. Commissioned sales people that need the largest amount of money possible to get their cut. Even the ones that advertise in working the little guy. I turned to China as well. after interviewing 3 companies I settled on one adn they assigned me a sales person, who stayed up late or got up early to chat and email. My mandarin is no longer passable, and her English was not so good, but we were able to get it hammered out and they sent samples, then made modifications I requested and I ordered 1000 pieces. Every single US maker wanted a 100k minimum to make it worth their time. Maybe I should have kept trying, but I worked in US manufacturing, and I know the process. It is 99.99999% about profit. Customer service is the lie they advertise. I learned Solidworks and my files are in industry standard, and 7 of the 10 said they could not use them, and would charge a $5k fee to re-design. Why? Profit. I am not against profit. But my experience with US based sales vs Shanghai was night and day. I am a disabled veteran, trying to build a product. US makers didn't care. But I am just one guy, with one experience. I am sure there are some that had the opposite experience. Global politics are ruining it for us all.
Yeah commenters, China is cheap, even after import taxes. They have slavery-like cheap labor and the Chinese government will temporarily assume the debt of whatever industries by subsidizing their light bill or whatnot in order to produce so cheap that the rest of the world will want to import from China. Every time we import from China, it's money we don't reinvest in our own countries. China becomes richer and our countries poorer. They're not exporting goods, they're exporting slavery-like labor which every country will have to assume in order to stay competitive, and they're exporting their form of communist control.
How are you able to still use your 2011 Solidworks copy? When I try and use my old copy it gives me an server issue or something. I can only use it when I set my calendar date before 2020.
When I installed SolidWorks on this computer several years ago, I did have to contact my reseller to "transfer" my license to the new computer. I reinstalled it from the CD I have, using my license key.
Yes, these were aluminum. I don't recall exactly how much they were. But it wasn't that much more than getting them from China as export-quality molds (many molds made in China are not designed to be repairable or to run on common machines).
When f360 came out I loved the idea, applied for the Start-up license, exchanged some mails with them, got approved and began using it. After 6 or so months I really started to hate it- random issues, server errors, glitches, sketching, etc. And went back to a legal, commercial 2012 SW license. It's a much, much, much better program IMO not mentioning the fact that I do some client work and cloud storage is a heavy NDA violator.... Great channel, really enjoy the slow paced and in-depth videos
Thanks. The main reason I'm sticking with Fusion 360 is because of the CAM. For this project, the circuit board integration (Eagle is now built in) was also very useful. But I agree, the CAD is not up to the standards of a 10-year old version of SolidWorks.
Fascinating stuff. Most people have zero appreciation for all of the thought and design work that went into everything they touch.
Thanks. Yes, there's a lot to it.
That's a *very very* interesting topic. I'd love to hear more about your experience about the price (with actual numbers), lead time and so on
I don't have permission to provide actual prices. But here is what I'll say. Rounding prices to the nearest $5K, we're talking roughly 15K for the mold made by Texlon and $15K for the mold made in China (plus about $5K for shipping and tariffs). Other quotes we got for molds in the US were closer to $45K.
@@JohnSL Thanks!!
What about lead time? Is Texlon way faster?
Why the Chinese mold, have you considered doing the manufacturing (injection molding) in China too? How did *that* compare?
Nice job. I'm surprised the toolmaker didn't catch the thin wall. 40 thou on that long a part is quite thin to fill. I worked in the consumer industry for 15 years, and we rarely made anything less than 80 thou (2mm), unless it was a rib for a boss. 2.5mm was a typical wall.
For validating a design before tooling issue, we used in-house ObJet brand poly-jet machines. They are super accurate, about as good as an SLA, for quite a bit less cost. There are 3rd party rapid prototype houses that have these machines. Stratasys is one. I would never trust an FDM process for final checks before cutting steel.
I think your fusion failure was due to all the surfaces you added converging to a point. I think if you had redefined the original top surface with the shape you wanted, rather than add that shape only on one side, it would have worked. Or, make the top thicker (by a lot), and then cut the new shape away using one sketched feature. Disclaimer, I can't stand fusion. I just switched from 20 years of Creo to Onshape at my dayjob. I like them both significantly more than Fusion. But Fusion has CAM and its price is so good.
Yes, I was surprised they didn't catch the thin wall. They probably could have made it work with a larger press, but I didn't like the thin section anyway--it's too flexible. For the larger throttle, there is a similar thin section over the bottom of the screen, but it was 0.04" thick. Generally I shoot for 0.08" minimum, as you mentioned.
The interesting thing about the Fusion failures is that I could perform the exact same operations in SolidWorks without errors. There is one part I will be turning into an injection mold where I got stuck because I just couldn't get the draft I needed. I tried building the draft it, but some operations failed. And I tried adding draft later, and again Fusion 360 failed. So I think there solid model engine just isn't as capable as the parasolid engine used in SolidWorks. Since Fusion works 99% of the time for me, and I do a lot of CAM, I'm OK going back to mold older SolidWorks from time to time.
The area that you are thickening John, would you not want to extend it out below the knob's diameter, to avoid a stepped gap?
The bump extends down far enough so it's past the change in thickness for the screen. So there is no value in extending it more.
Thank you for the update. Waiting patiently for the final. Or feel free to send beta tests, I'm really good at finding issues, especially with software, LOL.
I'm working on another update. We're still running into issues with injection molding.
i wonder if maybe you coulda included the draft angle in the initial extrude taper angle? idk fusion360 can be super temperamental and there are things that should work but dont, but usually there's a workaround
I run into that same screw-hole diameter trouble when moving in and out of different design revisions. the screw itself will change but I forget which version uses the updated screw. anyway personally I'd rather just use SW or Inv from the start for an assembly like that, I just find the "local" programs easier with regard to mechanical assemblies. Fusion can do a lot of things but there's some modeling and assembly quirks that force jumping through hoops here and there. I'd rather not bother unless I specifically had a reason to use fusion, like cloud collaboration or something.
Yea, SW is much nicer for CAD. Fusion 360 is really good for CAM, and I also sometimes use the circuit board features. So the integration (hence the name Fusion) is keeping me using it most of the time.
Hey John! Thanks for another great vid! If you run into trouble in the future with fusion or if you want to know why this particular issue didn't want to work for ya, I'm happy to help.
Watching now on 1.5x because I can't wait!
Hee hee.
Consider looking into an education-only license of SW which you can get for ~$20. Newer versions of SW have a really powerful Plastics simulation feature for designing injection molds. Even if you don't use it on products, (the license is non-commercial) I think it might be good content for the channel. Great video btw
This is for a commercial product, and many of the injection molded projects do produce a little income, so it probably doesn't meet the requirements. However, doing some educational videos on plastic simulation would be fun. I'll have to check it out.
Why not just stick with using the 2011 version of SW? Just saying it does everything you want it to do. do you need it to do anything else? The pictures you posted make that tool look like it made out of aluminum? On your screw hole pins I always spec them out as core pins that way if you need the a little bigger small taller shorter they can be taken out and ground to spec. Just a thought. Can I ask how much that tool cost you?? Love your videos!!!
Thanks. I replied to Nick's Stuff about cost. Most of the time Fusion 360 works well for me, and the CAM is really nice. I like being able to update the CAD and have the CAM easily update from that. Regarding the screw holes, it turns out they used a 0.093" diameter pin instead of 0.08" that I had in the CAD. They're going to grind them down to 0.076".
Ok, I’m an NCE guy, yeah I’m “narrow” minded, but train guys gotta “pull” together, right? (Yeah I hear the groans). There’s several ways to approach this in F360. Pardon if someone already suggested this. Given that you have an existing body. Go back in your timeline to when you originally extruded that body with draft (-3deg?). Add the additional desired thickness to your body extrusion to accommodate the thickest part of your new raised area. The entire body will increase in thickness by this amount. Now, without going forward in timeline create a new sketch on your longest side profile. Create a couple lines and a spline connected together to represent your desired profile at the desired height. These lines should extend to/past both ends of your body at the desired height. Let’s have some negative thoughts, eg we’re going to subtract a body form from your current drafted body. At this point, several options, one way is to create 3 more lines at the top of the newly sketched profile and then extrude a body and cut your drafted body in this case (punny). Reposition your timeline. Add fillets as desired. If you had existing fillets on the top edges you may need to suppress those features first. As always, YMMV.
I tried those approaches and Fusion 360 kept failing. The 3D engine in F360 just isn't as powerful as the one in SolidWorks. I've known this for some time, just never ran into it this badly.
@@JohnSL I recreated the body, diff dimensions in F360, put a fillet on top. Then did the steps described above, worked like a charm. if you like I can send you the example file and or screen shots if you drop me an email via linked in.
I could have sworn I tried that and it didn't work. But I just tried it now and it worked perfectly.
@@JohnSL 👍👍👍Thanks for giving it another shot, glad it worked for you.
This was great John. Thank you!
Glad you enjoyed it!
Also, I never imagined they used a carbon "pattern" to make molds with EDM!
Graphite electrodes are very common for EDM, along with copper electrodes.
@@JohnSL Yeah, I just didn't thing they made molds with it, that's a brilliant use
I'd gladly pay a bit more for USA made
Yes, we thought the same. So we're happy we get about the same price and all US made.
In your last video you reviewed some of your presses but we missed out on the Morgan? Any updates on the Morgan or the Arburg in the garage?
YES, we need a real review of your Morgan press :-)
OK, OK, I'll put that on my backlog. I want to learn how to use the ejector mechanism and the top plate for higher clamping force. Then I think I'll know enough to do a full review. And the Arburg in the garage is getting closer to moving into my workshop.
Ok... We'll wait.... :(
Good job! Your videos are very nice!
Thank you very much!
How to generate the 1° draft angle?
I would've solved the draft problem with a triangular profile perpendicular to the side of the part with a 3° angle, and then swept it along the entire profile.
I did try that approach and it also failed. So there is something about this model that Fusion doesn't seem to like.
Hey John. I like your video because you remind me of myself. Although unlike yourself I am based in Shanghai, China, and literally run the shop floor and machine-tools here, in Shanghai. I'll have to disagree with your cost-per China-vs-USA... China remains far more competitive than anywhere else I've sourced out from. What you need to be aware of is the price when "Rep is On-Site" (being in China that is) is still roughly -75% to -80% lower than what you normally pay in the USA. Although I understand that you are sourcing remotely and the price may differ, giving you 'the impression' that its the same/similar.
Needless to add; all of the consumer product outsourced in/to China has "Representatives on-site" dealing the cost of production. Trust me when I say the price is nowhere near the apocalyptic price range that American co has to offer. Yet. Will take a few decades for this competition to adjust...
Can you contact me via email (through the my Contact page here on TH-cam)? I'd like to dig a little more into the price difference you describe to see how what you're describing is different from my experience.
@@JohnSL Np, sent already. I'm off for the day but will catch up in 12~14hrs. All the best
I have to agree with GT. I started a project in 2017, to get a simple cup handle molded, and I went to 10 different US based companies that either totally disregarded me, or quoted me such huge outlandish prices that it would be impossible for a lone person to have it done. The main issue was sales people. Commissioned sales people that need the largest amount of money possible to get their cut. Even the ones that advertise in working the little guy. I turned to China as well. after interviewing 3 companies I settled on one adn they assigned me a sales person, who stayed up late or got up early to chat and email. My mandarin is no longer passable, and her English was not so good, but we were able to get it hammered out and they sent samples, then made modifications I requested and I ordered 1000 pieces. Every single US maker wanted a 100k minimum to make it worth their time. Maybe I should have kept trying, but I worked in US manufacturing, and I know the process. It is 99.99999% about profit. Customer service is the lie they advertise. I learned Solidworks and my files are in industry standard, and 7 of the 10 said they could not use them, and would charge a $5k fee to re-design. Why? Profit. I am not against profit. But my experience with US based sales vs Shanghai was night and day. I am a disabled veteran, trying to build a product. US makers didn't care. But I am just one guy, with one experience. I am sure there are some that had the opposite experience. Global politics are ruining it for us all.
Yeah commenters, China is cheap, even after import taxes. They have slavery-like cheap labor and the Chinese government will temporarily assume the debt of whatever industries by subsidizing their light bill or whatnot in order to produce so cheap that the rest of the world will want to import from China. Every time we import from China, it's money we don't reinvest in our own countries. China becomes richer and our countries poorer. They're not exporting goods, they're exporting slavery-like labor which every country will have to assume in order to stay competitive, and they're exporting their form of communist control.
How are you able to still use your 2011 Solidworks copy? When I try and use my old copy it gives me an server issue or something. I can only use it when I set my calendar date before 2020.
When I installed SolidWorks on this computer several years ago, I did have to contact my reseller to "transfer" my license to the new computer. I reinstalled it from the CD I have, using my license key.
how much did the moulds cost in the end? is the mould made of aluminium?
Yes, these were aluminum. I don't recall exactly how much they were. But it wasn't that much more than getting them from China as export-quality molds (many molds made in China are not designed to be repairable or to run on common machines).
How much did this mold in USA cost you roughly?
Answered in a reply to Nick's Stuff.
Work with me on some design
yay
Price in the thousands I assume
Over $10K. I don't have permission to provide the specific amount.
USA all the way!
Yup. That was our goal all along. It just too a while to find a US company that didn't charge three times as much as we paid for a mold made in China.