What Sounds Best? Guitar Tone Capacitors - Cheap Vs Expensive
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 13 ต.ค. 2024
- 20c Ceramic through to the $30 Jupiter Bumblebee I'm testing out different Guitar Capacitor types to find out if those expensive ones are the best.
Channel Schematics Download Page :
mcphersonmusic...
Memberships Only Page (Free to Join)
waylonmcpherso...
Waylon McPherson Guitar
Instagram : / waylon.mcpherson.guitar
Facebook : / waylon.mcpherson
My Originals Project Whiskey Soho
Insragram : / whiskey.soho
Facebook : / whiskeysoho
Spotify : open.spotify.c...
My Day Job "McPherson Stompboxes NZ"
Facebook : / mcpherson.stompboxes
Website :mcphersonmusic...
I am happy I revisited this test! One of the hardest things was finding 5 capacitors with all the same value, they can be all over the place due to different tolerance variations...that's why I like Orange Drops + they look cool 😎
Don't you just love to pay more $ for something you don't even see.
Orange drops are a clueless fetish. Silver mica is as good as it gets and dry film falls both better and worse by an inconsequential amount. These are electronic components. If you pick the biggest and most expensive one AND it’s not nearly as good - well, I don’t know what to tell you.
The test must be repeated excluding the human factor - record the sound on a looper so that it sounds the same throughout the entire test - and record the output sound on a computer and we will see the difference on the graph
So.. its all hype . Caps are caps. Thanks mate
There are differences in terms of what caps are best but that mostly comes down to things like heat tolerance, how much voltage they can take and reliability rather than tonal characteristics. As long as a capacitor is in good condition and is working within its environmental specifications one type should work just as well as any other.
Values make a lot of difference this was about build style which is kinda snake oil.
so caps are caps. thanks for reiterating i didnt read it right the first time@@jameslewis2635
no they dont@@roscius6204
The best capacitors are usually the Orange Drops because they have 5 % tolerance versions where the values will be slightly more accurate compared to other capacitors that are labeled as 10% tolerances. Also the build quality is excellent. I accidentally burned one with my soldering iron and it still works fine. Also, supposedly they tolerate high humid environments so that may be an advantage to some
I LOVE these well executed tests. They confirm so much that so many refuse to believe. I get that guitary things are often very personal but at least start with the fundamental understanding of what's true. Then if you want a $30 cap by all means have at it. It's a great story of magic and wizardry tell your friends, but at least know it's that, a story. Thank you.
Such a great comment, thanks!
The real difference in Tonal Control, is Not so much in the price, as it is in the "uf" rating of the Capacitor.... as well as with which type and capacity of the Potentiometer ("Pot") that it's being used in conjunction with. But either way and regardless of the "Pot".... the Cap "uf" rating has the greatest amount of control over the high end frequencies that are rolled off ("dumped")... not the price, and many of the "expensive" (ie; $30.)
Capacitors that are sold for Guitars or other stringed musical instruments.... were Never designed in the first place, for that purpose. Original "Vintage" Capacitors sold for "big bucks" on the internet and elsewhere, is nothing short of a Scam! Capacitor technology has come a LONG Way, since the late 1940's and 50's...
I’ve watched a few videos like this and every time I think I hear a difference and pay attention to that capacitor I realize that it is really the player having a slightly heavier or lighter touch on the strings. You certainly had the best setup for the test compared to the other videos I’ve watched.
Thanks man, glad you liked it!
Yeah but it sounded like when he hit the switch, the still sustaining sound and noise from the guitar got an EQ shift. Otherwise yeah it's really hard to tell. I wonder if there's a way to record the unamplified guitar signal accurately enough that you could play the exact same signal back through the different capacitors?
Looper next @@WaylonMcPhersonGuitar
You are doing valuable work that no one else seems to be bothered doing!
He is on Mission to discover new and fascinating tones for our benefit . Cool.
Lots of people have done this before, and always with the same results.
jim lil
@@frankcarter6427 Ok
Links?
The 30 cent poly are my go-to for cost and reliability. The ceramics CAN become more microphonic over many, many years, and the others aren’t worth the money in my opinion. You do bring up a good point on the variance in tolerances though, but it’s not too hard to test the values.
What people don’t realize about the old school “bumble bee” or paper-in-oil ones is they do degrade over the years, and that’s the illusion people get when they pick up a Les Paul from the 60s, hear a tonal difference between that and a newer guitar, and say, “it must be this out-dated type of capacitor that makes the tone amazing!”
Yes, and no. If you have a 60+ year old capacitor lying around, yeah, it might give you a similar sound. If you use a brand new “new-old stock” capacitor, it won’t sound like that 60s guitar unless you wait another 60 years.
Save your money, use a poly.
I do really love Orange Drop, they are a good reliable cap, thanks for checking out the vid!
So we get an old Gibson with old caps and see what the values are. Then we can replicate that. Seems easy.
Those cheap poly caps are not always cheap. I’ve seen them for around $4 but I think they’re tested to make sure the values are accurate or accurate enough. They are nice though especially the green color ones
It looks like the only real question we should be asking, as guitarists is, what design is the most reliable and long-lived?
I have a very old Telecaster which has a .050 wax and paper cap and it actually turned to jello when hot, only sounds good in the cold but the sound is different compared to the other types and...waxier. still have'nt changed it, it's like a birthdaycake candle wrapped in paper with 2 bits of wire on each end.
cool :)
They don't usually fail. They're selected for tonal properties.
I've completely recovered an old Hammond organ, which had 60s oil-filled paper capacitors.
These do not last...
I've replaced them with (very accurately measured) solid ones, and these should outlive me easily.
In other words: forget those really expensive ones... 😂
Temperature can somewhat alter the values in really small ceramic disk ones, but whether it's so much you'd notice while you're playing?....
Orange drops are reliable & I usually install them, but the cheaper poly will do absolutely fine & should last decades.
@@claudevieaul1465 A guitar capacitor hardly has any voltage applied, unlike a Hammond organ. PIO caps are fine in a guitar if the caps are well sealed.
Great test! Keep in mind that capacitors have a tolerance, so the value can vary between them. Usually it is about 10-20% max in modern caps; old types can vary up to 50%. So 22nF can vary from 17.6 to 24.2, oldies from 11 to 33. That is something you can hear. I use standard cheap poly caps and check the value beforehand. Constant quality guaranteed for little money!
Thats a super good point, I always go for good quality tight tolerance components. I tested all these capacitors before starting the test and they all read 22nf. Some of those paper in oil cap are all over the place but I suspect that due to excessive leakage as well, cheers!
10-20% makes little to no difference in terms of frequency roll off. Type, and compositions will have a bigger difference in terms of ramp speed, ESR, inductance etc...
@@qua7771 totally true. The same goes for different kinds of magnets in a pickup. The differences are very subtle but for some it is absolutely relevant🤷♂️
@@techslfink9722 Coincidentally I just did a magnet swap. I replaced a A5 with an A4 in the bridge of a guitar that was a bit too bright, and scooped. I also put an A3 in the neck position for less magnetic pull. I like it.
As far as caps go, expensive doesn't always mean better. There are various reasons some types cost more. There seems to be a trend now of people hating the thought of spending money on their instrument, yet they'll spend tons of money on worse things. Another trend is people thinking that an inexperienced, and unenthuastic opinion is as valid as a discerning one. It's like a movement.
Anyway, thanks for your reply.
@@techslfink9722 different magnets => different magnetic properties => Different caps with same capacitance => same electric properties.
I read that the entire reason Gibson selected the Orange drop caps is because at the time there were complaints that the tone varied so much from one guitar of the same model to the next. The orange caps are high quality and the variance in actual value from cap to cap is very small, i.e. they're more consistent. Along that line, I bought an assortment of Poly Film caps with 5% tolerance. Far, far, far less expensive than orange caps. Just experiment and find a value that you like for that guitar, and if you never use the tone control, don't worry about it.
Interesting thanks! I'm definitely a fan of tight tolerance components :)
I’ve found the biggest difference between caps is on the volume pot as you roll back the volume. Some retain more clarity than others.
Pickups play a big difference in this also but all things equal, I’ve found that the old $10~15 Russian PIO caps retain more top end when rolling back the volume vs the orange drops, new production bumble bees, mojo Dijon and a couple others.
As I've always understood it, the signal from the pickups itself doesn't actually go through that capacitor - it merely "drains" the higher frequencies to ground.
And in that sense, purely from an electronic point of view, it won't make the least bit of difference what type cap you put in.
Obviously that approach completely disregards tolerances, but if you measure specific caps against eachother, and put the most and the least expensive with the same value together, you won't be able to audibly notice the difference....
That said, personally I'm usually going with the 'orange drop' ones.
But mostly because they're fairly big and therefor less fiddly to solder 🤣🤣
Exactly! Could not agree more with everything here, you forgot that Orange Drops also look purrty :)
Exactly, I got in trouble on FB for stating the same thing to someone selling "vintage guitar caps" on Market Place,
Well electrically speaking, some signal go missing into earth due to the capacitive resistance; its a rlc circuit... for example a 1Mohm pot would make the giitar sound brighter cos it's value will let less high frecuency go to earth.
@@nicopoppe4838 I agree with everyone in this sub-thread. A capacitor in parallel with a resistor, a.k.a. an RC circuit in electronics, is a filter which suppresses electrical noise/stray unintended frequency spikes. This filter circuit would soak up noise from a dirty or worn pot like a sponge. I would imagine any real difference in capacitance would be dependent on what kind of pots were being used (audio vs. linear) as far as repeatability when dialing in a tone with the Tone knob. Also not to mention...those electrolytic can caps are really big and certainly not worth routing out your guitar body.😉
@ralph0808z I tested once with wago clamps pickups direct to the out jack against the whole circuit... suddenly a passive pickup sound almost as bright as an emg...
It's crazy spending the money on caps rated at 400V+ for a guitar that produces millivolts. I use higher quality caps for amps more for stability and reliability than for any tone differences. The reliability thing in amps is very important because a failed component can kill something expensive down the line, a failed cap in a guitar is about 5 minutes to replace and not a chance of damaging anything.
Nicely done. I couldn't hear much, but for what it's worth I think the Ceramic was always worst or worst equal, and the bumblebee was always best or best equal. I'm talking like a 1% margin between them - almost nothing. I used to use orange drops by default for several reasons - reliable, negligible cost, easy to get, consistent, reputable (an easy choice for the customer). Some customers figured $30 on a $3k guitar was negligible too, so the Mojotone and some other American PIO cap (forgotten) were common picks. My "in the room" feeling was that the differences were more apparent at volume with high harmonic content (overdriven) and dynamic playing style. Still miniscule, but the expensive guitar game is all about finding miniscule kernels of inspiration and using them to create magic.
Wow, I didn't even know it was changing during the blind test! But then I could hear very subtle differences when I knew you were switching. I put an orange drop cap in my guitar awhile ago when I switched out the pots for some push-pulls to wire the pickups for series/parallel operation - never really noticed a difference in the tone, but the soldering I did was much better than the toddler who was in there before me.
I've found that the best way to change your tone is to change the speaker in your amp.
Try 250k / 300k / 1MEG pots also different tapers of different vendors. Possibly Different values of capacitors .01uF / .033uF / .047uF/ .1uF - Love the setup and clear audio quality.
Just searched for this. Perfect example. Thanks
I'm similar to you dude, I use the orange drop caps in all my guitars as I think they look cool (as much as a capacitor can look 'cool') lol
Congratulations on your channel, thank you for sharing your knowledge. These latest videos are proving to be very helpful in understanding how electronic components influence our guitars. Best regards.
Waylon,
Thanks for doing this!
I found that the bigger difference between caps of the same value, is the artifacts, or absence of during the sustain and release part of the envelope.
Very subtle, but you’ll hear it with some caps.
I like the silver/ gold film and unicorn tears formulation.
They don’t look fancy, but it’s nice to know you have a $500.00 cap in your low pass😉
Paper in oil caps tend to lose their propriety over time, and become a resistor. BTW, you can use Illinois pp capacitors for more than half the prices of the orange drop and sozo blue.
The only thing I don't put ceramic caps in the audio path, and as electronic technician with 40 years of experience, I don't argue with people anymore, it doesn't make a difference. Especially in guitar. As long as they're the right value, it's ok.
There's so many stories, mumbo jumbo about particular parts, but it's the circuit desing that makes it sounds good, not particular components, I rebuilt and restore audio equipment, very high end stuff, and most of the times, the difference is the circuit itself, and the choice of higher tolerance components. But a particular type of capacitor won't change the sound enough for anyone to notice. I'm happy to see more people are starting to notice it.
Sorry for the bad English, I'm not a native english speaker.
The only disadvantage of ceramic caps is their temperature dependency ...
Excellent test! I've been a tech since the 70s. I've always found that poly caps were the most long term stable as long as not overheated. Otherwise my work on hifi circuits over the years told a similar story. I will be sharing this with my tone snob fiends.
Nice, thanks it means a lot!
BTW: I was listening on individually calibrated Beyerdynamic 770 through Sonar Works SoundID on a Focusrite Clarett + 4 Pre USB. I could hear absolutely no differences in the samples. I have little doubt that there are those that have better hearing than I but I still make recordings for a living. I've been a broadcast/studio engineer since the 70's.@@WaylonMcPhersonGuitar
Thanks for the extra ears, it's good to know I'm not the only one :)
I am glad that you ran this test with the direct sound. I have to confess that if there were differences they were way too subtle for me to hear clearly. I also strongly suspect that when you add an amp and turn up the gain a bit, it will greatly overshadow any perceived differences.
Thanks for the video. Did you try running the individual signals through a scope? If so, was there noticeable differences in the waveforms?
The orange drop sounds the most strat’ey to me and seems to emphasize a different high mid frequency range that would be great for wild blues leads. My second favorite was the Sozo which sounds great for rhythm and to me that sounded almost identical to the Poly, but I liked it slightly better. I felt like the Jupiter was the most transparent and added the least color to the sound. The ceramics literally sounded cheap. 🤯 Thank you for this experiment!
Any differences you heard were only in your head.
@@stevemc75Probably because he has better hearing than you, which is very possible, no sarcasm or disrespect.
@@treishtrei exactly 😅. I didn’t wanna say it myself. I’m an audiophile, forensic listener, engineer and player. Sound is visual in my brain, it has dimension, depth, color, form, whatever, that i can’t even explain with words. I think the degree to which one accesses the depth of sound is on a spectrum, and even then one’s experience can be subjective, especially with preferences. And for @stevemc, I listened with expensive custom IEMs. But again, your mileage may vary and honestly I almost envy sound detail not mattering. Life would be much simpler.
If we want to go very deep in the theme we may take in consideration other characteristics of the capacitors as resistivity and inductance. These all contribute more or less to the shape of the frequency curves. And it's measurable, therefore audible (and not always the other way around😉). Very good test by the way. Your setup is suitable for some sweep signal measurements.
Thanks, glad you liked it!
Thanks for taking the time to demo the various types. I found that the Orange drops work well on a Strat neck(.047uf) and it feels nicer to play? I usually find stuff at the re-cycling centre and snip out TV and Radio bits ,I found a load of "WIMA" caps of various values and put it 2 in the middle setting on the same Strat a .001uf and a .022uf parallel and am getting a "Johnny Gtr Watson" snappy super clean sound by turning the tone down to 6. I will try any-thing . Do you think the "Voltage " rating makes a noticable difference like a 5 Volt vs a 200 Volt?
Thanks for the comment, from what I have found, voltage makes no difference, cheers!
Another masterpiece of a video with the magic box
Wow nearly impossible to hear significant differences! Great comparison, thank you.
Thank you for the video.
I always roll my eyes when someone says they hear different tone caps even when their tone pot is on 10. 😅
If you can compare different cap types on treble bleed mods, now that would be interesting.
I’ve had much the same journey with tone caps- personally i’ve found its where in the guitar circuit the cap is placed - if its before the volume pot the cap gets loaded slightly when you turn the volume down- hence some guitars sound duller when volume is decreased- wired ‘after’ the volume pot output & the tone cap works much better imho- with a subtler taper and midrange lift as the tone is lowered- basically the 50’s wiring in vintage Les Paul guitars a big part of of their mojo…
Yes, I also prefer 50's style wiring, thanks for checking it out!
Cap type doesn’t matter. It would be interesting to see hear the difference between values. Like compare 22 to 47.
th-cam.com/video/zWRD5PawPw0/w-d-xo.html Here you'll see, how capacitors with different values undeniably affect your tone.
Cap type does matter in subtle ways like if you get the Orange Drop 5% tolerance version. There will be a J in the serial number to indicate that it’s 5% tolerance. So it can be slightly more accurate than other capacitors that are rated as 10% tolerance. Orange Drops supposedly have a high resistance to high humidity environments so that may be a difference. The build quality is good because I accidentally burned one with my soldering iron and it still worked fine.
@@ramencurry6672 I see your point. I personally prefer Mojotone Vitamin T caps because there’s a “T” in the name. Which I like to think stands for tone, or maybe tiddies. Either way, both are good things that start with T.
This demonstration raises so many questions. In my mind different caps. with the same value should sound the same. Quality and longevity are a real thing ask anyone who works on tube amps. As the listening to this video goes the place where I could hear the difference in caps. was when he was switching. I would also be interested in what different values in capacitance would make ?
listening through a set of JBL monitors, the only caps that had an impact with the speaker were the Sozo & Jupiter, but only slight when the pot was at 0. Neither made a difference of the treble side but the bass was slightly crisper with the Sozo & the Jupiter was SLIGHT & I mean Slightly brighter/clean than that. Neither are worth the cost when the pot could just be turned up to 5 & make them all sound the same. Yes, it's the tolerances that can make the difference, but for the cast, cheaper is not usually the enemy here. Thank you so much for this video. This just put a stop to an argument that me & a few friends have had for years! Keep up the great work!
Appreciate you having a good listen, always great to get feedback from other ears, cheers :)
I don't believe in magic capacitor mojo but I do know for sure the ceramic capacitors have a huge tolerance. I buy orange drops because they are the right price point for the consistency I want. But you could buy a pile of ceramic caps and test them one by one to find the actual right value and it might be cheaper and would sound the same for the same values.
I do really love those Orange Drops too, cheers!
My new favorite channel !! This is awesome!! Love all your videos and ideas! You’re very inspiring!! Thanks 😊😎
Thanks so much :)
The only thing that matters is the value. A tight tolerance cap and a tight tolerance pot with a 10% audio taper makes results consistent. That’s what I shoot for in a standard level instrument.
When it comes to vintage and custom shop level instruments, looks matter too.
Of course, use whatever you want. It’s your money and instrument.
I came to the same conclusions not too long ago. However, mine was not an actual study or experiment but rather just working on guitars and using just about every brand and type.
My results were the same. There was no real discernible difference.
They just block a certain area above a certain frequency.
I like the little cheap red or green poly caps you see everywhere, mainly because they're so small they make an easier fit with my push pulls and custom wiring, and pickup options.
And I make sure the values are correct.
What would happen if you had no tone cap or pot at all?
I'm considering that for my next build.
They guitar would be slightly brighter, cheers!
Do you know of any experiments of mounting humbuckers or single coils direct to the guitar body o f course allowing for proper pickup height ? If not that might be interesting. Thanks
Love the guitar, especially the headstock! Is that self made?
Thanks, yes it's my fav! I built it around 6 years ago :)
I believe every part in a guitar build matters, and has some impact on the tone. How much each one of those individual parts matters isn't as important as how the whole package works together. I tryn use the best parts available for all my personal guitars. If other people wanna cheap out, thats up to them. If skimping on something like a tone cap makes them happy? Rock on!
It's good to have another opinion, thanks for the comment :)
@@WaylonMcPhersonGuitar Why, what's the "right" opinion? There's alot of choices for almost every guitar build. Everyone can't be wrong.
There is no right or wrong when it comes to this sort of thing, I just appreciate the feedback, cheers!
@@WaylonMcPhersonGuitar People believe what they want to believe. and what they believe will affect what they think, see, and hear. If they believe a more expensive, "higher quality" capacitor sounds better, they will probably "hear" a difference.
There’s a difference between cheaping out and overpaying for literally nothing. A lot of those older styles of caps have fundamental problems and aren’t used today for a good reason. There’s no reason to buy anything more expensive than an orange drop.
It would be interesting to do a scenario test on each cap. In the guitar it won't be subjected to massive temp swings but temp swings and tapping could be a cool test.
Yeah true, that would be interesting!
There was very subtle variations in the highs/high mids on full, very subtle variations of the mids on half, and the bumblebee sounded slightly smoother or clearer through the range. But this is almost impossible to blind test and you’d never notice between 1-2% variations unless you could directly compare like this.
I suppressed the tone pot from my guitar as Yngwie does, and I liked the results. So I got on bridge humbucker and one 200k volume pot. pretty easy to handle. I let the tone control to the pedals.
Great simple test, thanks.
Your results make perfect sense. Capacitors with the same value should sound the same.
Those with little electronics knowledge may ask, so why so many different types. One reason is that over time we have found better ways of making them. The big reason is that they are designed to work in different types of circuits that have different voltage, current and temperature requirement. The voltage and current in a guitar circuit are so low that we can use them all without damaging them, hence the big choice.
I pick a reasonably priced capacitor that looks physically robust.
Thanks, yes same here, I really like the good old Orange Drops + they add a splash of colour :)
Mostly playing P Basses requires you to be on the tone control the whole evening. They all handle a little differently, also depending on the pot value. 0.022uF seems really low for anything. For me it's 0.47uF on single coils and like 0.082 for humbuckers and basses.
The most useful caps tend to be the ones with the most idiosyncratic nonlinear performance, like the p-i-o ones. Weird is good, turns out. There were some polypropylene ones out of an old combo organ that were extremely cool.
I'm not a bass player, but on every bass I own I've changed the cap to 0.1uF on the tone pot. I rarely use any of them with the tone control all the way down, but I like to be able to really bottom out the high end if I want to. and anywhere in between - I can just turn the pot to where it sounds about right. But its usually either all the way up or right in the middle somewhere. and those are all (mostly) either P or J type pickups. But you're right - different pickups respond differently.
100%. The "tone" may be similar, but it's the roll-off dynamics that makes the difference with PIO caps. You can still find Russian PIO caps cheaper than Orange Drop and Mallory...
@@jmakc3541 Been using those for 20 years. Just last night on a guitar I made with a Lead I/II body and a Palomino neck.
@@jmakc3541 Sorry, but that's just not correct. Caps are passive devices. The value of a capacitor or resistor may drift over time (like many years) or with temperature swings, but the only thing introducing any "dynamics" in a guitar tone circuit is the potentiometer. Different pots will produce different roll-off dynamics, but not the capacitor. If its a religion thing, then that's different - you can believe whatever you like. But technically, scientifically - a cap is a cap. the main difference between a "good" one and a "cheap" one is whether or not it holds its value of capacitance, or whether it drifts in value after 5 or 10 years or when it gets really hot or really cold.
@@anthonypanneton923 I disagree. You can't have a manipulated signal pass thru different media identically or flawlessly or do so in a completely stable, repeatable manner. Horses for courses. I believe my ears and as I have mentioned, I get my snake oil for less, anyway.
It's all about the micro-ferrad value, not what it's made of. Although there was a point where I may have tricked myself into thinking the $30 one sounded a bit clearer, or even louder, but that didn't last as it didn't show up again after the others were reintroduced.
I put a Varitone on a Strat and after a while I found there was one that I kept gravitating to.
Different values have more effect than build type and in particular the way they match/react to the pot.
I then did the bread board set up that's pretty much your switcher but with different values and different value pots. it's a good process to include in any guitar build.
The only reason you need anything other than ceramic is if your cavity cover is clear.
Unless you are an OCD guitar tech like me 🤣🤣🤣, thanks for checking out the vid
Loads of pre cbs use ceramic caps that's the funny thing
Great video. I would like to know more about your capacitor switcher.
Fascinating stuff, thank you. Did you check each capacitor to ascertain its true value? As I understand it, there can be up to 20% difference between capacitors of the same nominal value, surely this may have an effect on the tone?
Thanks! Yes I checked each cap, they all read 22nf :)
Onya for doing this! Point well made & proven. I must say though, If you can't hear the differences (subtle though they are), you may need better monitors or to get your ears checked. However in a room full of punters who really cares. ☮🕊
I chased the capacitor theory down the rabbit hole a few years ago with my US Strat and a 65 Fender Pro Reverb amp. I tried orange drops, tropical fish, bumblebee, Russian PiO, and those Chicklets from China on eBay. The Chicklets were the last caps tested. I couldn't tell any difference in any of them and left the Chicklets in my guitar. I really wanted to find that MoJo sound but it didn't happen.
It's great that some people can tell one from another but I'm not one of them.
I love this test, I feel like playing through a loop pedal in future would be a good way of keeping the test conditions more controlled as playing the same thing over and over will still have some variations.
I'm 62 and I've played for 48 years - I've learned that everything I ever 'knew' about guitars is BS - tonewood, US made, pickup upgrades, Gibson, pot upgrades etc etc etc - all BS . The EQ on an amp and a boost pedal has infinitely more effect on the sound than all of them put together
"I thought there should be way more difference there..." But WHAT difference are you looking for? "More good"?
Really the most we can hope for is "closest to the cap's spec". We're just as well off comparing two "identical" capacitors and trying to hear the tolerance difference. It's math, not magic.
This is a worthwhile experiment, though. "Closest to spec" isn't necessarily what's best, either! Our ear is the final arbiter of which one is "best" for a particular guitar, so a switcher rig like yours would definitely be a useful tool to "tune" a tone knob to the customer's taste. 👍
Thanks for checking out the vid, I was looking for any difference at all (literally anything that sounded different!) the Bumblebee caps are hyped so I was hoping for some small change between the Bumblebee ($30) and the Ceramic (20c), haha! Good marketing and a pinch of Placebo :)
I suck at electronics but, I always thought the tone pot is just bleeding sound to ground. The tone cap affects that but as the tone gets darker its much harder to hear any difference. With the tone at 10 there isn't really any cap involved.
I completely re-did the electronics in my Japanese TELECASTER , the original layout was with just cheap crap , the pickup's were quite low output so they were very bright, mini pots and a plastic 3 way had to go ! First a set of Seymour Duncan "hot telecaster" pickup's so higher output means more mid's, Fender vintage 250*K standard size pots ! and the famous orange drop .047 capacitor ! Now the guitar
absolutely kills in every way extreme tone range and very even pickup output !
I went full circle years ago. I used to use a lot of fx then went to chaining single fx pedals, now the only fx i use is a wah and reverb on leads and a chorus on clean distorted non solos are 100% dry. I love when a band is so tight and they have a stop or pause in a song and it goes dead silent, disturbed and tool do this a lot. Having fx lingering behind when you stop playing kills that super tight feel and it hides mistakes making you think you play a lot better than you do. The reason it sounds like crap on acoustic isn’t the guitar. It’s likely because you have been hiding your mistakes and bad habits with reverb and fx either knowingly or unknowingly.
I have learned that the wood type on electric guitars are just like the capacitors. It makes very little difference in sound. It’s all in the pickups. I watched an experiment where a guy just stretched the strings between two vices and put a pickup under them and it sounded exactly like the guitar he took the pickup out of.
People make electric guitar out of hubcaps, shovels, I built one put of crap laying around, i used screws from the privacy fence to screw the neck to the body and needed a little spacer so i added a metal Apple Card (old credit card) as the spacer to get the strings height over the frets right. Used some stain i found in the garage and added some pigment powder from my wife’s nails to it to give the stain a purple hue and some shimmer at the right angle. It has the crappy old style cheap guitar tremolo (im a les Paul guy) and i put a Seymour Duncan humbucker in it. And that sucker sounds as good as a Gibson. The pickup was the biggest expense. I think i might have $200 tops in the guitar. The pickup was over 100 i think. Hell i bought it in the 1990’s. I had to buy springs for the bar and strings. I don’t even have a tone knob yet. Came here loooking at different caps because im thinking a tone knob and switch to use top or both on the single humbucker might be a project to try. Soundwood is important for acoustics, but for electric guitars, you could use a 2x4 and make a guitar that sounds good if you use a good pickup.
They all make a difference, but I cannot hear it on clean. Only on high gain, tight riffs/tones. I have a video on comparing Ibanez green standard caps, poly I think vs Vitamin T cap and there is a major major difference. What I prefer depends on the guitar wood: on Mahogany guitars I prefer bumblebees, on alder guitars oil caps. For clean sound I prefer orange drops, but I never play clean....so...
Sounded very similar to me and I'm a "tone chaser"! 🤔
I know, same here!
Great video man
I didn’t really hear much of anything different on any of them except the ceramic. Sounded warmer. Even in the blind test. Could hear a change except when the ceramic was engaged.
Nice, it's always good to have some extra ears, I appreciate it!
I hear this too. My theory is that it takes the harsh frequencies and shunts them to ground.
Based on my experience, the type of caps only makes a difference for AC coupling caps that have to transfer the whole frequency range of the signal. Indeed different types of caps have different frequency response (capacitance is not always constant with frequency) and thus it can play a role in coupling caps or bright caps. Caps type used in a high pass / tone filters does not make such a difference as they dump all the highs anyway..
Thanks for the comment, I appreciate it!
I heard a difference in every single one of those through my shity half-broken Galaxy tablet speaker, I feel like that first test was definitely affecting the high-end harmonics gain the Jupiter sounded almost over-exaggerated, I like to play capacitors the other way around which one lets out the most miniscule consistent almost non signal I play with fuzzes and double distortions and you can really get some wild tone variations just from looking at the tone, tinkering with the minimalist approach
I would want to perform a frequency response analysis with the different capacitors. Different caps have a change in how they drop at cutoff frequencies.
The only significant difference in tone controls with the same value caps in our experiments has been the use of no-load tone pots on single coil guitars. There is an audible difference between a disengaged pot (10) versus bringing the tone pot back into the circuit (9)
One thing that can make a difference, noise-wise, is polarity. Electronically, there is no difference with orange drops (in circuits generally), but with such tiny signals being amplified, it can matter. One side connects to the cap's casing and that needs to grounded, ideally, otherwise the casing is the + signal and can be affected by interference. There are no markings because generally it doesn't matter. You have to test them. Connect each side of the cap and touch the casing. If you hear more noise in one orientation, then the casing is +, so swap it around.
This is the most important comment and it has no likes or a heart!❤
Any cap should sound the same, as long as they have the same value, because the signal that goes through the cap goes to ground so you never hear it. You only hear the signal that passes by the cap. I would say even microphonic caps should sound the same for the same reason, you don't hear the signal. There may be a difference if you were to pass the entire signal through the cap like they do with tube amp coupling caps, especially if the cap is microphonic.
This is something I do when putting together a guitar to get the sounds I want. And it works...
...but....
I seldom use he 22's. I also prefer NOS or salvaged components. And, because of this, I'm never sure what the actual value is, regardless of what they may have started off as, and allowing for tolerance.
So my rule is simply, whatever gets you there, and will it fit.
Could you try running the guitar into a solid state or tube amp and see if they sound differently please? (Since this is a more real-world situation)
Thanks for the comment! Using a real amp would actually mask the differences even more so, cheers :)
I've lost a lot of my hearing but what I could tell was a difference to when some of the capacitors started to have effect on the tone as it was dialed down. To me the tone from all sounded the same but if a capacitor was slower to effect the tone you might be able to dial in a little bit more nuanced tone. The Sozo seemed to come in the slowest.
I saw someone here do the same thing with stratocaster pickups, man I was bummed that I ever bought expensive pickups, there was just no difference. The sound of a guitar comes from the strings and the speaker in the box.
Orange was brighter Bumblebee seemed sweet but I might be biased.Once you add a drummer and lots of volume -- you wouldn't hear much,, I'd go with the orange drop.
Thanks for the comment, always great to get some different perspectives
Even without testing anything, the result can be predicted:
- Caps let high frequencies through.
- Tone controls send these high frequencies to ground.
- Caps, therefore, act on that part of the signal that *we don't actually hear*.
If there's any response difference between two caps with the same nominal value, it means either there are deviations from that nominal value, either at least one cap is defective.
The cap holding the tone, so it is fair to say different cap materials will effect tone. My orange drop made the 0 position more clear, less basey.But I had also switched from 47 to 22. Seeing the EQ curve on a pc would end the debate?
I did notice the biggest difference w the Ceramic vs all others. Often tho you need distortion to really bring out differences. I was having a hard time convincing people on a chat site that for a Tele in series, a grounded Neck p up thru the Bridge p up sounds different than a grounded Bridge p up thru the Neck p up. Then I played them clean instead of w my usual fairly heavy distortion. There was still a difference, but it didn't stand out anywhere near as much. So I do think a usual playing thru an amp w a distortion box test might actually be more on point.
what's funny is I thought I could hear some very minor differences but so miniscule, if at all, I would not say there's a difference I just thought I could hear very subtle (super subtle) differences but not enough to convince me it wasn't my own imagination. So for me as a bedroom rock star, it's orange drops or pretty blue ones I've got that look like Orange drops but are blue I forget the manufacturer, American or Japanese I can't remember but I trust them and researched the build quality of them they were highly rated I like blue caps just because they're blue, I mean I'm sure you get the exact same function you might as well have the colors you like lol
I'm not surprised, but it's great that someone shows it so people can hear and "see" it for themselves. How about making a test about "tone pots"? No, not the tone pot, the pots that people claim to improve your tone.
Thanks, yeah that is a great idea, I will add it to the list!
Nice test, caps certainly matters when they are in series with a signal, but in a guitar tone controls they just shunt treble to ground, and nobody will be able to hear a difference.
I know: "You shalt not decide what I can hear" (ShakeSpear) , but you can´t 🙂
I think doing this with active pickups, a set of EMG 81/85 and seymour duncan black out ABH1 set, and using the correct value but diff cap types. orange vs oil n paper etc etc. great video
Very interesting! Could you do a similar test using the 5 different capacitors as a low cut instead? See if they sound any different?
Thanks, that could be interesting
Nice video , BUT the difference is the different plucking of the guitar. It‘s impossible to pluck / play chords in exactly the same manner. So , it would be good just to measure the frequency response of the PU‘s with the different caps ….. cheers !
I couldn't hear any significant differences on "clean" tones. It would be interesting to hear if there are any discernable differences on crunchy or dirty tones. Thanks
Thanks for commenting, actually as you ad dirt it would actually be even harder to hear differences, cheers :)
@@WaylonMcPhersonGuitar Perhaps, but I'm one for actual testing. There is a 2-year old YT video by Kris Barosci called "Guitar Myth-Busting! Are Paper-In-Oil Capacitors Better? | Guitar Tweakz" in which the results were surprising.
Cool thanks, I'll check it out I really like KrisBarocsi Vids
I bought 2 $5 caps to qualify for free shipping from my favorite vendor so basically they were free. My usual are $5 a dozen caps.
is your tone cap pre or post volume control? Would we expect more difference if your volume control is interacting with the tone cap (post volume) rather than up front where the cap is essentially connected directly to the pickup?
My personal opinion is that, it's more about how the "feel" changes. Like when people say certain amps or guitars are "chewy". That's a feel thing. It's about more different resistance's equating to a different response. JMO
any differences that you do hear are due to variation in values between the caps, not the type. Most caps tend to have a fairly wide tolerance, and PIO, everybody's honey, is the worst because of how they're made and the fact that as the oil dries out, their values change. The value is 100% the reason for any measurable or audible differences.
The thing is all the capacitors are doing the exact same job.
I'd just go for capacitors that are known to last a very long time.
You could even fit adjustable capacitors for fine tuning if you wanted, but there probably wouldn't be much point in that.
You could record the guitar by itself then play it back for each capacitor into a DI and analyse the frequencies on a computer afterwards.
Yeah, as I suspected. I thought it'd make more difference because of the hype, but especially since I don't really even use the tone control, this kills the notion for me on guitar tone controls. It's polypro for the extra reliability for me.
Would be interesting to see for pedals, but it's potentially a harder test ... swapping out 15-20 caps is not as easy as swapping out 1. Although with pedals you can pre-record the input for a true A/B or even null test.
That would actually be pretty interesting, many modders change out Electro's for Film in the audio path claiming better tone, thanks!
@@WaylonMcPhersonGuitar no problem! Definitely curious about that, will definitely watch that video!
I went years with the tone control on 10, before finding that most of the time, it's better to roll it back (about 90 degrees, generally) and then set the amp's controls to compensate. Then keep the tone control in this rolled-back position, adjusting it as necessary. It tames the brightness of a single coil bridge pickup, and brings out a much more pleasing tone. Works with humbuckers too!
I always appreciate hearing about other musician setups, cheers!
Capacitor types matter more in tube amp design for reasons that have little to do with tone and more to do with temperature stability, lifespan, tolerance, etc.. The whole point of having a well designed circuit it that it won't be drastically affected by tiny changes in individual components
JUST A QUESTION? ARE ALL THE CAPS YOU USED EXACTLY THE SAME SPEC? AS IN, DID YOU SELECT THEM WITH A GOOD CAP TESTER FOR TOLERANCE? AS THEY MAY VARY 10-20%
A very good test. Being an electronics audio guy, I have noticed that Orange drop capacitor legs have steel & not copper. Steel is a rotten audio signal conductor but I guess you could argue that it gives the sound a certain characteristic. Not for me though. Steel/audio absolutely no!
That's a good point, thanks for letting me know. I do love Orange Drop though :)
in a guitar tone control the capacitor sends the frequencies dictated by the capacitors value to ground. what you hear is the signal with the higher frequencies rolled off, you're not hearing any of the signal that goes through the capacitor. where differences may be heard is because of the tolerance of the capacitor. if you have 5 different caps that all have the same value you'll not be able to hear any difference between them.
Electrical Engineering here. The only capacitors you should avoid for audio are ceramics. There are some research papers about this. Otherwise polymer orange/green/ whatever are the same and totally fine.
A much better solution - is to avoid advice from impostor “engineers.”
It's been a hell of a long time since those "research papers" were written. Caps production technologies have also advanced greatly.
And one pathetic capacitor in a guitar - won’t make any difference to the final sound.
Well, just for in case, this is not “audio”(philia?) 🤣🤣, this is a guitar sound. (no rules)
Yes, actual capacitor values will vary due to the acceptable manufacturing tolerances, but so will the tone pot values! Testing a number of pots which are supposed to have the same maximum resistance, the real-world value can vary plus or minus 10%. Obviously, with the pot at "10" there will still be slight high frequency roll-off (the pot resistance is still 'loading' the pickup output) but the tone difference may become actually noticeable when the pot is turned down to a lower setting. But then, who can set the tone knob EXACTLY to the same position every time? Then factor in the actual amp settings.... If it sounds right, it is right!
So true, there is variation in everything
Capacitive Reactance differential, especially with such great distance in your 'test box' cable, at its C per foot. it doesn't get but thicker. ;-)
To be blunt! After decades in the electronic biz you are going to notice more in tolerance differences than diferent types of cap. For my moey pot taper (log, anty-log and normal) will have more of a effect and that is only a preference of the player often ive used unconventional values with the 50c green cap and what ever pot I can get my hands on. a pot is a pot, a cap is a cap. use the right cap for the right job eg audio/radio/hf/uhf ect ect...
ps 50's style vs mordern makes more difference too! and other topoligies.
Thanks, I couldn't agree more :)
a pot is a pot? Not when you get scratchy ones on ebay from China they're not . . .
@douglasdobson8110 Yes, it is just that.
The cheaper ones had the most impact on the sound.