I think that it was 3+ years ago that the owner of a card shop my friends and I used to go to gave me the 2 starter decks and asked me to be the "expert" on the game at her shop and try and push it on my group, but no one wanted to play after learning how janky the combination of game mechanics were. Honestly I think she was just tired of the decks sitting on the shelf and shoved them on me.
This happened to me and my friends with Kaijudo. We all got handed a bunch of starter decks and free packs. We played one game and were like, no thanks we are good.
I second this. This would be a wonderful way to help smaller, lesser known people publishing their games get more known, as well as helping them out in getting good feedback.
Ngl, Crusaders of Lornia not having proper problem removal cards is either due to how the game died early on so they couldn't properly address issues, or it's designed by choice to be a combat-focused only game which, damn, that's weirdly tunnel-visioned. Like, I'm a dude who main rank10 Trains and Fur Hire in YGO but even those caveman "hehe big number go boom swarm field" strategies still need to use non-battle removal and negations.
As much as it can be said that Hand Traps and Counter Traps (in YGO) ruin interaction, card removal is an absolute must. If just for creating some form of meaningful interaction, removal is an absolute necessity. And every archetype in YGO, at least over the past decade or so, has as least gone out of its way to have multiple forms of removal involved.
Alot of modern card games are fairly narrow minded in regards to removal and interaction though. Unless you have ways to stack protection onto cards, trying to invest into a singular "boss" is invalid unless they're oppressive. (Appolusa, Borrelsword, Red Eyes Dragoon, etc) This is not to say non-battle removal is bad. EASY removal is, in my opinion. The opponent should have to invest resources to remove something outside of battle, with the stronger it is the more you need. That can be card damage, draining stats, paralysis/moving the card around, etc. I have a huge distain for hard removal at this point in time, even moreso towards hard negation, and the game I'm making has an emphasis on combat, but with each color altering the flow of the game field in different ways. The only color (1/6) with hard destruction is purple, and they have to sacrifice their own board presence to do that. If this is as good as I hope it is, though, I dont know. I have more testing to do.
@@clayxros576 Honestly Digimon handles this so well. In their most recent TCG, every Digimon has a Level, Memory Cost, and DP (Power) Removal typically goes like “Level x or low Digimon” or “Memory cost of y or less” or “Which has z DP or less” and some even focus on if cards don’t have Digivolution cards (Soul), basically punishing players who just try to use big boss monsters alone.
@@freddykrueger8076 Huh....I'm doing a similar thing in the game I'm designing. I havent looked at the new Digimon tcg yet, so its interesting to see they printed that approach first. Seeing how well the game is going, it gives me confidence in my own approach tbh.
The place to start is how big the playing deck is. Each set should, in theory, provide at least 1 playable deck for each "color". This allows for draft play, or a kid with pocket change to ramshackle a playable deck together through card packs. You could consider 4 copies of each card, or 1 copy of each, or a combo based on rarity. Example. A game has a 50 card deck and 3 colors. In this scenario, each set would need at least 50 cards. That could be 10 variants of common cards, 4 apiece, 2 Rare cards at 4 apiece, and 2 ultra rare cards in total. So, 14 unique cards for that color in a set. Thus, the minimum expansion set size for this game would be 42 cards. The next thing to consider is archetypes. Is your game like Yugioh where archetypes encompass every type of card, or vanguard where archetypes are functionally their own colors? Are different archetypes mixed easily, or is there hard rules/mechanics in place to dissuade mixing? This will define how many "colors" you actually need to account for when designing an expansion set. For Yugioh you can mix things easily, so they can alter set size on a whim. Vanguard has 25+ "colors", and so their set sizes are either staggeringly huge or divided into smaller sets supporting specific archetypes. Going back to the original example, in addition to a 50 card deck this game has 4 colors. 3 hard colors, and 1 colorless that can be mixed into the others. We have the 14 unique card minimum for each of the main colors, BUT we also have that last neutral color. Assuming we arent intended to make a pure deck with it, we can instead use those neutral cards as a glue to hold the entire set together. We can have 8 unique neutral cards in the set then, to support this and maybe even past sets. Or even to give some fun experimental options. So the set size is now 50 unique cards. Deck size and color coordination are the main things to consider when deciding the size of each set. Everything else, from the amount of playstyles in each color, genetic support, even rarity distribution will work themselves out once those initial considerations are resolved.
This game sounds pretty unpleasant to play. Having your life total essentially be a side deck sounds like it would make the game way more unfair to those without all the staples (as you said, you kind of need to have 2 playsets to play the first 4 turns optimally). The Yu-Gi-Oh attack system also isn't very strategic in general, just slam bigger monsters into smaller ones. I wonder if this game didn't get enough time in the oven
That T-shirt looks cool. I would wear it for the design alone. But finding one today is probably impossible. Edit: They actually sell the shirts in the place that Kohdok linked in the description.
I checked out the site because I kind of wanted to see if it would be interesting to collect a side game, and they are literally selling singles on their official store for 30+ dollars. That Battle Fader clone you mentioned is currently on sale; it is normally sold, AS A SINGLE ON THEIR STORE, for 50 dollars. What the fuck.
That is incredibly interesting to see mechanics broken down to this level. I am curious on your thoughts on the Kingdom Hearts card game from a mechanical perspective
@@EinDose yeah it came and went awhile back. It was definitely inspired by chain of memories as you play a hero character like Sora or riku and the early sets used attack cards when battling. You had two avenues to winning. Beat the other player character to a pulp or jump through enough worlds to score 13 points
@@samwisegamegeek wait really? It was only yesterday when i would buy the theme decks with my middleschool friends at our local target. Then again we would also buy ereader card packs at a discount at F.Y.E. god i am aging
9:33 "-you can imagine that being able to spend your life points to, do powerful effects is in fact completely insane." ~Manically laughs in Necropotence.~ 19:55 "-the only life point that matters, is the last one!" ~Is still manically laughing in Necropotence.~ ~Will always be manically laughing in Necropotence until Disenchanted.~
I really love that playstyle. It takes the logical mindset of "Health is a resource" card games encourage as a default, and takes it to the extreme by literally using it as fuel. If the mechanic was translated flavor wise into the real world, youd literally be bleeding yourself. Which is literally insane. Its freaking great
@@clayxros576 I've won and lost many a game of MtG off one life point, playing with and against many a Black deck that has discounted Mana costs because they have a life payment to them. Standard has a good number of decent cards in it right now that have good utility but cost life in exchange that are seeing play. But, yeah, you can flavor it in a lot of different ways, from blood sacrifice to literally cutting off your hand and a ton of other things so it's really neat.
@@vladspellbinder The game I'm making has a life deck, except _regular_ damage draws those cards into your hand. The lifedeck is made up of tokens and resource cards, so you mostly only gain fodder, but it still helps in testing. Life payment cards, of which there is only 1 right now, mills cards from the HP deck instead. In a really funny format my fiance made up I managed to make a huge tempo swing by comboing the mill and grave-exile cards. I'm a normal deck it never would have worked due to how the format was, but it was crazy. Wait why was I sharing this......OH. As a life-cost player, what do you think of the lifedeck system I've devised? I can explain it specifically if its unclear.
@@clayxros576 As Kohdok has mentioned in another video life decking is iffy at the best of times. The cards going into hand is a good measure but it all really depends on the actual game play. You just need to play test things and see what actually feels fun and engaging and has good replay value.
@@vladspellbinder Fair. Playtesting with my fiance (who didn't play card games prior) enjoys it since it gives a tangible give and take for using life and taking damage, as well as fodder to bounce back. It was actually Kohdok's video on lifedecking, and my enjoyment of Duel Masters shield system, that gave me the idea to....simply have the damage drawn since I havent seen that before. I'll fully admit it's a hard sell though, and still needs more testing to see if its actually what I think it is.
It's a draw card I'm guessing. The rules are too much of a mess to be sure. Now if anyone can figure out what pot of greed does, please let us know! Alternative comment: probably the same thing as pot of greed. They both hold liquids right?
I like how the card descriptions spell out COST, CONDITION, EFFECT, and so on separately from one another in this ga,e. Dumb people can find that sort of thing hard to understand in Yugioh. Bonus points for accessibility!
To be fair, especially in the older cards, Yugioh's game grammar is horrible. I dunno how it is currently but at least in MTG grammar is easy to understand since it all uses the same stuff.
So they're called "lifeforms" when zombies and golems are present, not to mention debatably-alive information entities like spirits? Why not "entity" or "unit?" That's just one of many things wrong. Just The Main Dude being a faction in and of himself is pretty grating. They really wanted to get Ricky over, and all I know is that he drinks Diet Coke (or so it looks like from the resource whatsit) and looks like everybody's obvious self-insert. I'd expect that the blue-haired lady on the T-shirt would be a major character, unless she's like the Obligatory Cool Girlfriend Who Mostly Just Stands Around. ...I admit I like the Stoned Golem, but I am an aficionado... of a sort. *koff koff*
I get what he meant but it is poorly worded. I think he was referring to the concept of spell speed in addition to the fact that instant speed things are typically shown to be “fast” in terms of lore in games like these.
Could have been better worded but considering how he is presenting this content to people who knows to some extent how of the big 3 plays, it's not that out there. He might want to fine tune his vocab for a more casual audience tho
Its not wrong through. While slow in terms of overall investment time, a "Trap" is functionally far faster than a spell. You pay for the speed and versatility in setup time, whereas with spells you have no investment at the cost of versatility. Even in the modern yugioh meta regular traps are seeing play again, despite their being "slow". Tribrigade Revolt and Crackdown being some examples of slow traps seeing play.
@@croc-plunderenthusiast1396 We are discussing mechanical design of complex trading card games. Too many words sounds like a "you" problem, as design requires detailed language
dunno if i missed during the video but does the creatures behave like yugi so they can attack the turn they're summoned or like mtg where they have summoning sickness (except haste ones) ? that's another important aspect between the two styles of game and the way the duel is intended ( back and forth with mobs crushing into each other or build the board managing your life points
Did no one playtest this game before crowdfunding it? Yikes. Also yikes: that mascot design. The issue is that is the sort of t shirt you can only wear to a con or something similar because you WILL get weird looks if you wear it anywhere else and that’s the best case scenario. I mean, no judgments if you like the design but it’s just a statement of fact in my mind. There’s a reason Pikachu is the main mascot for Pokemon and not Misty lol.
That's supposed to be a teaser illustration of their "Anime" style second card set they clearly didn't publish. The artist has a poor handle on anything you could remotely call an Anime artstyle.
I think that it was 3+ years ago that the owner of a card shop my friends and I used to go to gave me the 2 starter decks and asked me to be the "expert" on the game at her shop and try and push it on my group, but no one wanted to play after learning how janky the combination of game mechanics were.
Honestly I think she was just tired of the decks sitting on the shelf and shoved them on me.
This happened to me and my friends with Kaijudo. We all got handed a bunch of starter decks and free packs. We played one game and were like, no thanks we are good.
Just a small question, are you still willing to look at other peoples games for feedback?
I second this. This would be a wonderful way to help smaller, lesser known people publishing their games get more known, as well as helping them out in getting good feedback.
Comment to boost comment attention
@@creativeboundaries126 ok
Up
Feedback episodes sound cool
Ngl, Crusaders of Lornia not having proper problem removal cards is either due to how the game died early on so they couldn't properly address issues, or it's designed by choice to be a combat-focused only game which, damn, that's weirdly tunnel-visioned.
Like, I'm a dude who main rank10 Trains and Fur Hire in YGO but even those caveman "hehe big number go boom swarm field" strategies still need to use non-battle removal and negations.
As much as it can be said that Hand Traps and Counter Traps (in YGO) ruin interaction, card removal is an absolute must.
If just for creating some form of meaningful interaction, removal is an absolute necessity.
And every archetype in YGO, at least over the past decade or so, has as least gone out of its way to have multiple forms of removal involved.
Alot of modern card games are fairly narrow minded in regards to removal and interaction though. Unless you have ways to stack protection onto cards, trying to invest into a singular "boss" is invalid unless they're oppressive. (Appolusa, Borrelsword, Red Eyes Dragoon, etc)
This is not to say non-battle removal is bad. EASY removal is, in my opinion. The opponent should have to invest resources to remove something outside of battle, with the stronger it is the more you need. That can be card damage, draining stats, paralysis/moving the card around, etc. I have a huge distain for hard removal at this point in time, even moreso towards hard negation, and the game I'm making has an emphasis on combat, but with each color altering the flow of the game field in different ways. The only color (1/6) with hard destruction is purple, and they have to sacrifice their own board presence to do that.
If this is as good as I hope it is, though, I dont know. I have more testing to do.
@@clayxros576 Honestly Digimon handles this so well.
In their most recent TCG, every Digimon has a Level, Memory Cost, and DP (Power)
Removal typically goes like “Level x or low Digimon” or “Memory cost of y or less” or “Which has z DP or less”
and some even focus on if cards don’t have Digivolution cards (Soul), basically punishing players who just try to use big boss monsters alone.
@@freddykrueger8076
Huh....I'm doing a similar thing in the game I'm designing. I havent looked at the new Digimon tcg yet, so its interesting to see they printed that approach first. Seeing how well the game is going, it gives me confidence in my own approach tbh.
Also 10 resources are too many
2014?! This looks like graphic design from the era of MtGs beginning.
The girl of blue hair looks cute, but the art un general is from a 70 comic
@@RolandTemplar The blue haired girl on the t-shirt? naw, that american anime weeb style screens 00's
@@duane_313 yeah maybe, but she is as a pet, cause she dont have any card about her
@@duane_313 How to draw manga books
Remember how you mentioned that your booster pack contents should be 5% of the set size? How do I figure out what my set size should be?
The place to start is how big the playing deck is. Each set should, in theory, provide at least 1 playable deck for each "color". This allows for draft play, or a kid with pocket change to ramshackle a playable deck together through card packs. You could consider 4 copies of each card, or 1 copy of each, or a combo based on rarity.
Example. A game has a 50 card deck and 3 colors. In this scenario, each set would need at least 50 cards. That could be 10 variants of common cards, 4 apiece, 2 Rare cards at 4 apiece, and 2 ultra rare cards in total. So, 14 unique cards for that color in a set. Thus, the minimum expansion set size for this game would be 42 cards.
The next thing to consider is archetypes. Is your game like Yugioh where archetypes encompass every type of card, or vanguard where archetypes are functionally their own colors? Are different archetypes mixed easily, or is there hard rules/mechanics in place to dissuade mixing? This will define how many "colors" you actually need to account for when designing an expansion set. For Yugioh you can mix things easily, so they can alter set size on a whim. Vanguard has 25+ "colors", and so their set sizes are either staggeringly huge or divided into smaller sets supporting specific archetypes.
Going back to the original example, in addition to a 50 card deck this game has 4 colors. 3 hard colors, and 1 colorless that can be mixed into the others. We have the 14 unique card minimum for each of the main colors, BUT we also have that last neutral color. Assuming we arent intended to make a pure deck with it, we can instead use those neutral cards as a glue to hold the entire set together. We can have 8 unique neutral cards in the set then, to support this and maybe even past sets. Or even to give some fun experimental options. So the set size is now 50 unique cards.
Deck size and color coordination are the main things to consider when deciding the size of each set. Everything else, from the amount of playstyles in each color, genetic support, even rarity distribution will work themselves out once those initial considerations are resolved.
This game sounds pretty unpleasant to play. Having your life total essentially be a side deck sounds like it would make the game way more unfair to those without all the staples (as you said, you kind of need to have 2 playsets to play the first 4 turns optimally). The Yu-Gi-Oh attack system also isn't very strategic in general, just slam bigger monsters into smaller ones. I wonder if this game didn't get enough time in the oven
Sigh... No one learns from the Mox or Channel do they?
That T-shirt looks cool. I would wear it for the design alone. But finding one today is probably impossible.
Edit: They actually sell the shirts in the place that Kohdok linked in the description.
The shirt looked really cool
But.. Who is the girl?
I checked out the site because I kind of wanted to see if it would be interesting to collect a side game, and they are literally selling singles on their official store for 30+ dollars. That Battle Fader clone you mentioned is currently on sale; it is normally sold, AS A SINGLE ON THEIR STORE, for 50 dollars. What the fuck.
well, to be fair, that $50 is marked down from $200 - so you're getting a steal
That is incredibly interesting to see mechanics broken down to this level. I am curious on your thoughts on the Kingdom Hearts card game from a mechanical perspective
There's a Kingdom Hearts card game?
...that isn't Chain of Memories?
@@EinDose yeah it came and went awhile back. It was definitely inspired by chain of memories as you play a hero character like Sora or riku and the early sets used attack cards when battling. You had two avenues to winning. Beat the other player character to a pulp or jump through enough worlds to score 13 points
It's out of print and really expensive
@@samwisegamegeek wait really? It was only yesterday when i would buy the theme decks with my middleschool friends at our local target. Then again we would also buy ereader card packs at a discount at F.Y.E. god i am aging
@@fennecfoxfanatic Yes. Starter decks by themselves are 100$ now.
whens the medabots?
Oh boy, that one is bad.
9:33 "-you can imagine that being able to spend your life points to, do powerful effects is in fact completely insane." ~Manically laughs in Necropotence.~
19:55 "-the only life point that matters, is the last one!" ~Is still manically laughing in Necropotence.~
~Will always be manically laughing in Necropotence until Disenchanted.~
I really love that playstyle. It takes the logical mindset of "Health is a resource" card games encourage as a default, and takes it to the extreme by literally using it as fuel. If the mechanic was translated flavor wise into the real world, youd literally be bleeding yourself. Which is literally insane. Its freaking great
@@clayxros576 I've won and lost many a game of MtG off one life point, playing with and against many a Black deck that has discounted Mana costs because they have a life payment to them.
Standard has a good number of decent cards in it right now that have good utility but cost life in exchange that are seeing play.
But, yeah, you can flavor it in a lot of different ways, from blood sacrifice to literally cutting off your hand and a ton of other things so it's really neat.
@@vladspellbinder
The game I'm making has a life deck, except _regular_ damage draws those cards into your hand. The lifedeck is made up of tokens and resource cards, so you mostly only gain fodder, but it still helps in testing. Life payment cards, of which there is only 1 right now, mills cards from the HP deck instead. In a really funny format my fiance made up I managed to make a huge tempo swing by comboing the mill and grave-exile cards. I'm a normal deck it never would have worked due to how the format was, but it was crazy.
Wait why was I sharing this......OH. As a life-cost player, what do you think of the lifedeck system I've devised? I can explain it specifically if its unclear.
@@clayxros576 As Kohdok has mentioned in another video life decking is iffy at the best of times. The cards going into hand is a good measure but it all really depends on the actual game play.
You just need to play test things and see what actually feels fun and engaging and has good replay value.
@@vladspellbinder
Fair. Playtesting with my fiance (who didn't play card games prior) enjoys it since it gives a tangible give and take for using life and taking damage, as well as fodder to bounce back. It was actually Kohdok's video on lifedecking, and my enjoyment of Duel Masters shield system, that gave me the idea to....simply have the damage drawn since I havent seen that before. I'll fully admit it's a hard sell though, and still needs more testing to see if its actually what I think it is.
Wait, what does Ricky's Favorite Drink do?
It's a mystery...
It's a draw card I'm guessing. The rules are too much of a mess to be sure. Now if anyone can figure out what pot of greed does, please let us know!
Alternative comment: probably the same thing as pot of greed. They both hold liquids right?
@@JoelRiter FBI open up!
I like how the card descriptions spell out COST, CONDITION, EFFECT, and so on separately from one another in this ga,e. Dumb people can find that sort of thing hard to understand in Yugioh. Bonus points for accessibility!
To be fair, especially in the older cards, Yugioh's game grammar is horrible. I dunno how it is currently but at least in MTG grammar is easy to understand since it all uses the same stuff.
Really enjoying this series because sometimes dead games have interesting things to learn about.
Girl on the T-shirt deserves rule34 tbh
So they're called "lifeforms" when zombies and golems are present, not to mention debatably-alive information entities like spirits? Why not "entity" or "unit?" That's just one of many things wrong.
Just The Main Dude being a faction in and of himself is pretty grating. They really wanted to get Ricky over, and all I know is that he drinks Diet Coke (or so it looks like from the resource whatsit) and looks like everybody's obvious self-insert. I'd expect that the blue-haired lady on the T-shirt would be a major character, unless she's like the Obligatory Cool Girlfriend Who Mostly Just Stands Around.
...I admit I like the Stoned Golem, but I am an aficionado... of a sort. *koff koff*
So the blue hair girl is no matter?
Oh my god, what is that font
I hope you do zombie world order
Another 1 set wonder. Halloween themed too
This T-Shirt remind Me Of Shantae.
Yeah, pretty whory
Ah yes pot of greed but in the command zone. seems fair.
Board building with mana restrictions???
Me, a Yugioh combo player: Aight imma leave now
No matter how many times I watch this, I can't seem to understand one thing or another
yeah i could not keep up with this lol
"spells that are slow and can only be used outside of combat and traps that are fast and have to be set first" You okay Kohdok...?
I get what he meant but it is poorly worded. I think he was referring to the concept of spell speed in addition to the fact that instant speed things are typically shown to be “fast” in terms of lore in games like these.
Could have been better worded but considering how he is presenting this content to people who knows to some extent how of the big 3 plays, it's not that out there. He might want to fine tune his vocab for a more casual audience tho
Its not wrong through. While slow in terms of overall investment time, a "Trap" is functionally far faster than a spell. You pay for the speed and versatility in setup time, whereas with spells you have no investment at the cost of versatility. Even in the modern yugioh meta regular traps are seeing play again, despite their being "slow". Tribrigade Revolt and Crackdown being some examples of slow traps seeing play.
@@clayxros576 too many words my guy
@@croc-plunderenthusiast1396
We are discussing mechanical design of complex trading card games. Too many words sounds like a "you" problem, as design requires detailed language
Why does a game without breakthrough damage have defense mode?!
Like literally what point does that serve in such a game?
Defense points are higher, I guess. Basically, if you didn't attack, you're stronger.
Anyone remember PKcards?
dunno if i missed during the video but does the creatures behave like yugi so they can attack the turn they're summoned or like mtg where they have summoning sickness (except haste ones) ? that's another important aspect between the two styles of game and the way the duel is intended ( back and forth with mobs crushing into each other or build the board managing your life points
You find EVERYTHING!
the card back looks like wheel of fortune. very dated and not really matching the science fiction theme of the rest of the in game world..
The tuck box thing is cool suggestion. Gonna try that next time when I buy a structure deck.
What a strange doomed game this was
LIfefooorrrmms! Such lovely little lifefooorrrmms!
Looks interesting
Thoughts on a Yu Gi Yo style battle system on a Lane push game?
Day 8 asking for Harry Potter tcg for this series. Also nice video!
The fact that I censored out the boy's eyes in the last video should be a sufficient answer, I think.
@@Kohdok that makes it sounds like hint hint soon or you can't for demonotizing reasons :(
It means I won't.
@@Kohdok :Sadge:
@@Kohdok this also makes me sad. Oh well.
Hecatomb!
Did no one playtest this game before crowdfunding it? Yikes. Also yikes: that mascot design. The issue is that is the sort of t shirt you can only wear to a con or something similar because you WILL get weird looks if you wear it anywhere else and that’s the best case scenario. I mean, no judgments if you like the design but it’s just a statement of fact in my mind. There’s a reason Pikachu is the main mascot for Pokemon and not Misty lol.
The blue hair girl.is mascot?
That's supposed to be a teaser illustration of their "Anime" style second card set they clearly didn't publish. The artist has a poor handle on anything you could remotely call an Anime artstyle.
Really hope to see you do Card Wars at some point.