Kveik Yeast The Great Pitching Rate Debate
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 26 ส.ค. 2024
- It is time for another educational video and this one concerns the recent studies and discussion around kveik yeast and its pitching rate.
This video starts with background information before looking at the recent published studies by Escarpment Labs and Brülosophy.
I hope you find this video entertaining, useful and enjoyable.
Here are links to both articles online:-
brulosophy.com/...
www.escarpment...
Channel links:-
groups/Brewbeer
www.teespring....
Introduction music:- Drink Beer (Till The Day That I Die) by Dazie Mae
Once again another great contribution to the HB community. 👍👍👍
Many thanks Jeffrey, trying to do my bit :)
Thank you as always David for providing good common sense and reasoning on “so called” facts. You are a treasure to the homebrewing community!
Many thanks Kevin, someone needs to say it! :)
Fascinating. Since the summers here get pretty hot, I've always been itching on trying out Kveik yeast. This video has a lot of good info. Cheers!
Great to hear, go for it :)
Funfact, some Kveik-strands still in use are older than America. I just find it fascinating that we literally drink history when we drink our beers, guys. Cheers!
Indeed. Tormodgarden (used to be Saure) has been around since the dark ages.
I am a simple soul. I have been brewing for many years with no ambition other than to brew beer which I like. When I first started I had a choice of - beer yeast. If I wanted to brew strong ale I could use Champagne yeast. Nowadays I have a choice of yeasts which are named after my preferred styles i.e. Nottingham, London and the liquid yeast suppliers list similar characteristics of their yeasts which I could choose. Kveik is less definable in application. I also brew without too much control of temperature apart from heat belts type things when it gets cold but cannot cool to a Lager range and certainly would struggle to brew (on purpose) in the 30C range, a range it seems that kveik prefers. I would love to see some tabulated data instead of needing to trawl through individual or freeform information so that I could find an analogy with kveik for what I use now. The myth of not being able to teach an old dog (or is it horse?) new tricks is not true. I am currently trying to get a pressurised brew system to work (Still trying to get a reliable seal on the vessel) so I move with the times if possible.
Other than that a well balanced and presented article David, thankyou.
Many thanks James, much appreciated. I have videos out and coming in the future that give all the information you will need on each of the more popular kveik types. So far I have covered Voss Gjernes and Tormodgarden. More are coming :)
Awesome video… I learned this when pitching a starter and Kweik didn’t like it… it likes to be tough and treated more harshly than normal yeast. Recently I have a chronical and it turned round 64 litres in 3 days at 32C..I harvest the yeast now and reuse… your video sums up my journey with Kweik…although I never thought of splitting the purchased pack..
I use the small amounts for pitching and saved a stalled brew with some..
Great to hear Stephen 🍻🍻🍻
Just to add my experience to the mix and to add weight to David's argument, I bought a pack of Ebbegarden on eBay and the description stated that the packet weighed 1g which, it said, was enough for a 22.5L batch. When I weighed the contents of the pack it came in at 4g, however when I measured out 1g I lost my nerve. In my defence I make fairly strong (6-8%) beers and usually pitch 2 packs of either US-05, Mangrove Jack's M44 or Nottingham Ale yeast i.e. around 22g per batch - so I bottled out and pitched "all" 4 grammes but this is still less than a fifth of the amount of yeast I normally use. In short, it went off like a bomb - although it did take 24 hours to get going but I suspect this was because I pitched at my normal 19C and it took 24 hours to get to 31C in my fermentation fridge. Next time I'm going to take my courage in both hands an pitch 1g at 35C. BTW David, this was your Pineapple and Mango Raw IPA and was delicious! Thank you for the recipe.
Clive Brooker I always seem to get a slight infection taste with the two dry yeasts mentioned, that I don't get with liquid yeast like Wyeast 1095. How about you?
@@johnvetter8963 Hi John, Not something I've noticed, in fact I've done a couple of comparisons between liquid yeast and dry yeast and it's probably my battered taste buds, but I couldn't honestly tell the difference although it's difficult to do direct comparisons since the varieties are different. I've gone back to pitching dry yeast, because it's cheaper and easier and I don't have to worry about sell by dates and degradation rates of liquid yeast, all of which need a starter in my opinion (my starter stir plate now serves to agitate my hop tea instead). The one difference I might have compared to your set-up is that I ferment under pressure and transfer to a CO2 flushed serving keg also under pressure - this has made the biggest difference to my beers, particularly for IPA's and their longevity in the keg. As an aside, this is interesting brulosophy.com/2019/05/30/yeast-comparison-wyeast-1318-london-ale-iii-vs-safale-s-04-english-ale-the-bru-club-xbmt-series/ (although I find the choice of yeasts puzzling, 1098 would have been a better comparison) and despite the author's obvious preference to using liquid yeast, no-one could tell the difference.
Clive, I brewed the Pineapple and Mango Raw IPA, used Omega Hothead, only one small teaspoon to 23l during transfer. Fermentation went off like a rocket within 4 - 5 hours, fastest and most active fermentation ever. Hold your nerve and underpitch the next batch.
One gram thought David has said 5 grams
All good :)
I am very happy that you made this video as i felt the same about the "cut and paste" pitching instructions on the packages of commercial yeast labs. I also believe that the single isolates are not a good representation of a whole kveik yeast/bacteria colony, although i have had great results with these, especially since ive taken your advice in under-pitching. A teaspoon of liquid yeast is plenty, and i bet i could go even lower. I make cider with it :)
Great to hear, thank you. Yes but hopefully other labs will fix this soon also :)
Perfect Timing, your Viking Ale is transferring to the fermenter right now, and I'm just about to pitch Voss Kveik. I will just pitch a teaspoon. Thanks
Great to hear :) Glad you found this useful
Nice video again, I do miss the Teaspoon pitch
Many thanks Ferry :)
David again a good video, did last spring a brew with Voss pitched 1 gr. at 23 litre and fermented at 32c. Beer was ready in 4 days had unfortunately a contamination so the tast wasn’t what I expected. It was more a sour beer and not a farmhouse ale.
Thanks Frank. Sour can be good sometimes, hope you enjoyed it anyway?
David Heath Homebrew the beer wasn’t bad it was a refreshing summer beer, I have still one bottle and will taste it next week. Probably I had a lactic acid fermentation.
Here in Singapore, with tropical temperatures, tiny apartments, and limited fridge space, kveik has been a lifesaver. But I can't help but feel I haven't got it figured out yet - on my 3rd attempt now and I'm consistently getting some funky flavors (not the fruit esters I was expecting), and bad headaches the next day, despite following the same brewing practices I used to use with standard yeast strains.
Hi Darryl, is this all with generations of the same yeast or are you pitching new each time? Which Kveik are you using and at what pitch rate to volume?
@@DavidHeathHomebrew I've tried Imperial Loki and Omega Hothead. With both of those I just added the entire new pouch directly into the wort. Another time I tried making a starter using some dried Stranda, with the same results. Murky beer, strange phenolic flavors, hangovers. I've since done a batch using US05 with the same water, equipment, and practices with no issue.
What volume of beer and temperature? What level of OG?
@@DavidHeathHomebrew I always do 20L batches, usually hitting around 1.055 - 1.065. My ambient room temperature is ~30 degrees all year round.
Thanks Darryl. Each of these pouches contains enough Kveik for at least 4-5 20L batches. Unlike regular yeast Kveik thrives on an under pitch. When you over pitch like this it often becomes as bad as an under pitch with regular yeast. I have been very vocal about this. Check out this video:-
th-cam.com/video/FKXUrQ8yaVs/w-d-xo.html
Since this was made some yeast companies have agreed to a change but this will happen once they reprint packaging sadly. I find this unacceptable personally. Check out this video where I used hothead and shared my pitching method:- th-cam.com/video/_VuUsM1Kp6o/w-d-xo.html
The graphs prove your point. Although the lower pitch rates started a little slower, they soon caught up and ended at the same place. This means the maximum growth rate of the lower pitch rates did exceed that of the higher pitch rates.
Thanks Dave. I believe temperature was a factor here. It will be interesting to see how this works at 30 degrees Celsius :)
I'm from and live in Hornindal and brew konnjøl (traditional farmhouse beer) at home. As I understand, the old guys in Hornindal now and in the old days never consciously consider under or over pitching. They simply put a let's say small handful of kveik in the beer. There was never a shortage of kveik, since they brewed maybe 2-3 times a year (Christmas and summer) and the kveik they harvested and dried was more than enough for future brewing.
Yes, exactly :)
How do they dry the yeast? Top crop mid ferment and then just dry it out on paper? Or do they wash it first?
I show the entire process in this video:- th-cam.com/video/fzcnyyvWAYA/w-d-xo.html
@@TinyPirate It's my impression that here in Hornindal they have harvested it on top and dried it on paper and stored it in glass or nowadays in the freezer. In Hornindal as far as I have learned washing the kveik has not been common.
@@DavidHeathHomebrew I have watched it! 😆 I just wonder what the traditional approach is. Just smash the goop out on paper seems to be the way!
Anecdotally, I used 1 package of Lallemand Voss at 35 Celsius on 2 batches of 15 liters, around 1.060 and 1.075 respectively. So around 5.5 grams of yeast per batch. The 1.075 batch took a bit longer to get going, three hours instead of 2, LOL! They fermented down to around 1.015 within 3 days and tastes very orange-y. It’s only 1.5 week since brew day at the moment so I suspect taste will evolve.
Its amazing stuff for sure :)
Great information, I was wondering about calculating yeast counts after harvesting yeast from a finished fermentation ? Thank you and appreciate your videos!
Thanks Dave. I would suggest continuing with the kveik teaspoon method. It has been working for many people, including myself for many years.
Great work on Kveik David. One question, do you think instead of altering pitching advice, the big boys will just sell smaller pouches (at not much less of a cost)?
Thank you. This is unlikely due to how production is set up.
As always informative, Thanks for your effort 👍
Many thanks Allan, much appreciated :)
Great video David. I think you make some fair and valid points. I have been pitching a teaspoon of the Omega Hornindal and Voss with great success. I suppose people can disregard the info and pitch the entire pouches but why? Time and time again I have done grain to glass in 1 week with a simple teaspoon of Kveik.
Keep up the good work and don’t let the naysayers get to you.
How do you store the remainder of the yeast if you don't mind my asking?
In the fridge in a jar. I showed this in my Kveik users guide video.
@@DavidHeathHomebrew thank you for the reply. I will try that on my yeast next week with the Omega Voss pack. I will also check out your other video relating to using the kveik yeasts. Love your videos I am watching through your channel on my day off.
Great vid David. My personal experience is that your points are bang on correct.
Many thanks Phil, great to hear :)
Thank you for the nice video!
Great, thank you :) Somebody had to do it! :)
Hey David thanks again for your info on brewing. I recently brewed with kveik Voss yeast for the first time I did make a starter and pitched half of the starter approx 600 ml per batch and I think it was too much yeast. It fermented great at about 95F but has an off aroma I think it's from to much yeast. From a yeast starter stand point how much of the starter would you recommend pitching per 5 gallon batch in a beer that is OG 1.066 or so? Thanks
Hi Mason, yes that would be too much. An even teaspoon of this kveik will be plenty for your batch size.
I have a liquid pack of Arura from Bootleg Biology which I assume is 100B, should I use the whole pack in 5.5 gallons of 1.047 wort or just use half?
If its kveik then use the teaspoon method.
Good video David! 👍🍻
Many thanks Brian :) Much appreciated :)
I make a starter with a few different commercial variants to build slurry, and just add a tablespoon of slurry to a 5 gallon batch a teaspoon in a 2.5. Have had nothing but success.
Great to hear, yes this is the way forward :)
I am fermenting a Cooper Dark Ale using a Voss Kveik yeast.
It was very slow to get started but I am fermenting at 19 degrees.
It has now been bubbling away for two days now.
I am not a great fan of hydrometers as I am not interested in knowing the exact strength of my beer plus I like to keep the fermenting vessel closed during the whole time to avoid contamination.
I see that the laboratory brewed Voss for 14 days, should that be my benchmark ?
Hi Graham, Really depends on how healthy the yeast is and what type it is. There are varios isolates and farm versions. I would expect it to take no more than a week. The best use for a hydrometer is to know that fermentation is over though.
Hey David, brilliant as always. I've got a bit of an off topic question regarding whirlpool/hop stand on the grainfather. I've seen you pitch the hops at 99 - 90 C, and then do the whirlpool, but won't that just provide a huge amount of bittering, especially when I'd be trying to avoid that? I could use the CFC to to bring it down to 74C, which is my preferred whirlpool/hop stand temp (I've just ordered the grainfather, so I've no clue how that works on it, I'm used to using the immersion chiller, and I do a 40 min hop stand normally), but then some of the wort would be sitting in the pump tubing, not participating in the whirlpool/hop stand. Hope this makes sense.
Thank you. It is vital that you use recipe software when planning a beer recipe. This way all additions and their contributions can be measured and the desired balance applied.
@@DavidHeathHomebrew That's what I do. I use Beersmith, helps so much. My only issue is just getting the wort down to 74C in the grainfather (which I've not used yet, I've ordered it a few days back). I understand I can use the CFC to get it to 74, but some of the wort would be stuck in the pump during the hop stand. I've seen others use an immersion chiller alongside the CFC to get the wort down to their preferred hop stand temps. Would that be the preferred way to do it? Or is it fine to just you the CFC and let some of the wort sit in the tubing while doing the hop stand. (Pardon if there's a lack of clarity in my comment, I'm a bit exhausted)
@@EspCulo yes you can use the CFC to cool back into the boil pot to reduce the temp, it is pretty effective at reducing to just below eighty which is what I regularly do to get more of the betas and less of the alpha acids extracted. the vast majority of wort is in the kettle but there is always going to be a small proportion left in the pump anyway as you would have run boiling wort through the CFC beforehand to ensure that it is sanitary. this is not likely to have any noticeable effect on you hop oil extraction.
@@andrewzamorski4950 Thank you for the answer! That cleared it up for me a lot. I'll get to trying that out.
As Andrew Zamorski said, just use the CFC to cool it down to your preferred temps. I've had little luck with low temps, so I advice anything over 70 C (158 F).
Great video David !! In your opinion does over pitching Kveik affect the flavor of the finished beer ??
Thank you. It certainly can do yes.
One more thing, i co-pitch opshaug with Voss in view of the likelihood that farmers would've done something similar, that is, if they didnt have enough of their own, and the neighbor had some tomordgarden, i assume that said farmer might pitch both in the same brew, and perhaps thats how the kveiks have evolved over the centuries. Why stop now?
Quite right! Blending like this can give some really great results:)
So the recommended under pitch rate is a teaspoon (dry or slurry). Whats the estimated million cells / ml / degree plato for a teaspoon? I see Lars Marius Garshol in a presentation recommends in general 1M cells per mL.
Yes, this is the general consensus. Some go higher though. I would suggest doing some testing and compare the results and see what you think.
Pretty interesting to learn about . New friend Ruthie here
Thanks Ruthie and welcome! :) Plenty more on this channel about kveik and many other things beer & brewing related. Hope you enjoy it :)
I do get your point regarding your comments about company giving the correct yeast amounts in each pack, but does this just mean the customer may miss out on extra yeast, im sure they wont lower the price if they lower the amount of yeast in each pack.
Thanks Shane. It is really not about price as I see it, it is really about correct information. If anything this information would promote better value.
@@DavidHeathHomebrew I do agree that correct information needs to be given, otherwise time and money is wasted, but price does have to be a factor because it is all relative to most people brewing and to all things in general, well that's my view on things anyway 😁. Thanks for the video.
I'm soon to brew with the lalbrew kveik voss dried yeast. I'm going to pitch half the packet (5.5g) into 23L of 1.045 wort. I have no experience with kveik whatsoever but just going off what I've read online. Not following the manufacturers instructions
With Lallemand dry kveik you should follow the manufacturers instructions on pitching rate when using it from the sachet. This version has its own formulation. If you reculture it then the smaller pitcher rate applies. I have a video guide on this channel to using this version of Voss kveik.
@@DavidHeathHomebrew wow! this came just in the nick of time. I was just getting ready to brew tomorrow. Thanks.
@@leser1music Great to hear :)
Wait for it- smaller yeast pouches(for reduced pitching rates) without a change in price = greater profit, they are a business after all. Hope I'm wrong.
Very unlikely. It will be a change in the advice on the pouches.
Hey David, I don't mean to step on your toes, but I'm getting the feeling you're misrepresenting the blog post on the Escarpment Labs website. It's perfectly fair to disagree with the method, specifically the room temperature ferment, however this did not happen "for some strange reason" as you put it, but for a very specific technical reason stated in the post. There is no malpractice or hidden information, instead they acknowledge their caveat/possible flaw upfront.
The experiment contained the kveik related products this lab currently offers and has the conclusion that for these products "pitch rate matters less than you might think", but also that a ball park statement should not be made, because they saw strain dependent differences. So I would disagree that it tries to make a broad statement about all strains of kveik. The introduction part might give that impression. The conclusion does not in my opinion. I also don't see how and why the lab should make claims about yeast they don't carry in their product catalog.
You talked to Richard about this on Milk the Funk already and I thought you two came to a solution. But in this video it doesn't seem like you think of this as a mutual step in the right direction, but instead like it's a small victory in the war against the misinformation and misuse of kveik and to conclude this long comment: I think Escarpment Labs and you with your kveik related videos actually have many common goals.
Many thanks for your response. I am not claiming malpractice at all. I am simply making response to the article. I saw broad statements and felt it was misleading. I am not saying this was the intent, merely the outcome impression. As I said in the video this has all been resolved now, which is great news that I am very happy about.
@@DavidHeathHomebrew That's fair, as I've stated I did not get that impression overall, but with the introduction part of the post I can understand why you did. I hope people won't blow up the conclusions into something they are not. But I also hope that people will not dismiss them entirely.
On a different note: I would love to see a video with your thoughts on the most recent blog post by Escarpment Labs on the pronounced pH drop seen in many kveik strains. I've certainly seen this in my TYB Sigmund Gjernes isolate, but also in farm versions like Skare and I'm now changing my brewing methods to reduce it.
@@Grumskiz Thank you. I am not looking to upset anyone, quite the opposite. In fact the article by Escarpment upset and annoyed quite a lot of people within the Norwegian kveik community in actual fact. All this talk about myth busting for kveik and so on. I am sure you can understand. Had it said isolate kveik or more then things may have been different. What is very pleasing is that Richard is going to change his isolate pitching rate advice on the pouches. This is the outcome and it has been long awaited by many. Lets hope it starts a trend!