MTH Protosound - Let's try using different transformers - Conventional mode O Gauge Lionel Alco
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 20 ม.ค. 2023
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Yes you can use any AC toy train transformer with Protosound 1,2,or 3. You don't need a DCS system to enjoy your MTH trains. Although a DCS system can access additional features. - เกม
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With regard to the Protosound-1 loco's 'quirkiness': By default the horn only operates in forward or reverse. In order to be able to sound the horn in neutral, you have to alter a setting while in reset mode. I had to consult one of my PS1 unit's manuals to confirm this, as it's been quite awhile since I've run any of those units.
Protosound-3 locos have built-in capacitors to take the place of a battery. Upon startup, they'll wait till the capacitor is charged (as you saw in the video) before performing a start-up. Once the cap is charged, the unit will start-up immediately unless it's had a chance to sit without power long enough for the cap to discharge.
Thanks for the insight! First hand knowledge is the best. I'm slowly building mine up 😁
Yesterday's old style Transformers circuit breakers do not cut and quick enough to save delicate Electronics from short.
Very true
A fun feature I found with proto 3 engines in conventional mode is if you hit bell once then whistle once you get 2 short blasts of the horn/whistle
Neat! I'll have to give that a try. I've discovered that if you give the horn a long blast then release it the train will sometimes do a trailing "toot toot".
PA - Well in an effort to determine what was happening I pulled out my proto 3 Alco RS-3 engine. Yep you are right - when you hit the bell then whistle you get 2 blasts of the horn. BUT what's really going on is the 2 blasts are confirmation of turning on or off the marker lights. Even if your model doesn't have them (my RS-3 doesn't). You get the same 2 blasts if you do 1 horn and 4 whistles - this command turns on and off the classification lights (again my RS-3 doesn't have them). There's a chart in the owners manual that shows the commands. - Jeremy
@@TooManyHobbiesJeremy ah I see, I never paid attention to the lights. Thanks for the info
Thanks for the video. It is nice to know you can operate those MTH engines without having to buy a new transformer to run them and access some of the features with only the horn and bell switch on older transformers.
Glad you liked it. I think MTH worked hard to make sure everyone could use their engines. Unfortunately it's not super obvious. I'm hoping this video helps coreect that perception
I did not know the Z series controller had those extra functions. Probably cuz all I had was a Lionel with a horn. I can tell a big difference in sound quality between protosound generations. I really love the PS3 ALCO startup and sounds. Also love that vintage Lionel horn, that is the BEST! :)
That vintage Lionel horn was fun to get working. All it would initially do is make a click sound from the buzzer. Luckily there's an adjustment screw on it - several turns later while activating the relay it came to life. The Alco RS3 currently only PS3 unit. I like the visual indication of the headlight comimg on first then marker lights coming on after the unit is ready to go.
Fantastic video Jeremy. I really appreciate your review of all of the MTH ProtoSound systems. It's interesting to see how the PS systems work with the conventional transformers. I think the first MTH PS1 engine I got was the WVP&P Shay and I can't tell you how many times I screwed up the sequence of bell and whistle switch functions trying to activate the features I wanted :)!!!
The American Flyer transformer with the Deadman switch is an absolute favorite of mine. Having Lionel trains lead me the using the ZW, but I always thought that the American Flyer transformer had the edge for being fun to operate. Image how amazing this would have been for an operator in the 1950's!
Keep up the great work! - Brad
Thank you, I really wanted to cut it down a bit but I had so much fun making it that I just couldn't 😁
That little car just wisses around the track
The only transformer that I found the Protosound 2.0 did not like was the Lionel Z80. It seems like the Protosound 2.0 engine didn't like the waveform clipping from the Lionel Z80. After purchasing the DCS commander remote as shown in the video, the engine performed flawlessly as expected.
Interesting! Thanks for sharing your experience (and subscribing)
look up issues with PCS and non sine wave transformers. even the z series have issue with some proto 1
Thank you so much for that. I am fairly new to this so seeing what you can do with it all is great.
You're welcome, glad you liked the video
I enjoy these Jeremy.
Thank you for having interest in my way too many hobbies ❤️
Thanks for your help i will do that
Any time
Thanks, saved.
You're most welcome
Yeah, we have kind of a random mix of vintage 2000's Lionel and MTH. Just one Protosound 2, but we don't have any DCS. We have a similar to thatZ-500, maybe it's Z-800?
I hear you there. I buy trains when they are on closeout or I buy used.
@@TooManyHobbiesJeremy I've never bought a locomotive, but my father bought a bunch. Mostly I've been just getting stuff we already have fixed, or fussing with wiring.
There's a Z-500 (50 watts) and a Z-1000 (100 watts).
@@RailRide We must have the Z-1000. It has a big brick under the table. (I also got a Lionel PowerMater and power brick so I can use conventional and PS1 from the remote.)
there is a z-750
I know it's not relevant to the video, but seeing as how American Flyer put meters on their transformers makes me feel like Lionels Postwar ones are lacking now.
Great video, One of my main questions was, did any of these next generation locos have speed control and what are the things missing. Your vidio has opened up a whole section of trains that will work fine on my Yard layout as it must be conventional aand run a couple hundred feet of track. Thanks for the coffee...
Thanks for the questions! Keep them comming. MTH protosound 2 & 3 all have speed control. It's enabled by default upon startup in conventional mode.
I checked out your channel. You have an amazing layout! I'm super impressed with the high level of detail and scene creation. And it's outside 😱😎 Respect- Jeremy
I have a few with protosound 3 and I cannont work the horn with my ZW 250
Also if I'm going to run a track that is going to be around 55ish feet long, how many watts would I need?
Great question Tim! If the engine is moving will the horn then work? I admit MTH engines can act a bit wonky. If your ZW 250 works with other engines on both the bell and whistle than those particular Proto 3 engines are just picky snobs lol.
Another great question Tim, it really isn't the length of track. But more of how many engines you will be running at one time, how many light up cars will you run at one time. To get the most out of your layout you could run extra feeder wires. This overcomes the normal resistance of power going through each track joint. Also will your transformer be powering any accessories or additional lights? My answer is the bigger the better. But a better answer is to measure the power that your track draws from your transformer. Also you can monitor the temp of the transformer. If it's getting hot then a bigger transformer may help.
Hi, I started getting into Tin Plate standard Gauge, and I have a Protosound 2.0 400E. I was wondering after you mentioned the batter being dead in a Proto 2.0 does not damage the electronics, but the sound. Does that mean it is permanant damage to the sound module/speakers or is that until the batter is charged or with a new battery, they should work again?
I have not test my 400E yet, since I am waiting for my Z4000 TX, so I want to make sure that when I do test run it, nothing is compromized. Thank you!
There are various opinions out there. The best thing in my opinion to do is replace the rechargeable battery with a BCR or an original type battery. Congrats on getting a Z4000 - I really like mine.
Thanks I don't know how to do this
No problem, the procedure is outlined in the manual. If you don't have it, head to the MTH website. They have free downloads
Hi I have a question I got a dcs commander all my math engines run great except one it's a union Pacific 4884 proto sound 3 when I try to put in default nothing happens but when I hit start up it comes on but won't move but the engine starts up do you have any idea why this is happening it does work with my other controller with the buttons I would appreciate any thoughts thanks
I'm guessing it has to do with the address the the engine might be set to. A full reset on the engine may cure the issue. Good luck ❤️
Hi . Do you know if i can run my lionel gp 9 first generation with sound with an MRC AH 101 270 watts with the handheld throttle without any risk to damage the sound board ? I know that my (chopped sine wave MRC transfo ) especialy dont like MTH locos but is it the same with a lionel or weaver locos ? Thank's in advance if you are able to help , if not ,thank's anyway .
While I don't have experience with that combination, I do know MTH & lionel engines are designed to run with any toy train transformer. A lionel forum might shed more light on this. Thanks for the question 👍
look up PCS issue with non sine wave AC
Jeremy...do you find that the Z-500 gets a little warm in the vent area ? Mine seems to but she's 20 years old. Thanks (new subscriber)
Welcome to the channel! Yes, heat is the byproduct of whatever load you have on the unit. If you have a dual motor engine with several light up cars it will heat up faster. It was interesting seeing this last Cabin Fever auction of MTH warehouse stuff. There were several burnt out z-500 & larger transformers. But mine has been reliable & I don't use it for hours on end with heavy electrical loads.
What's a favorite engine you own? My first MTH is mine - EP5 protosound 1. The station stop announcement says "now arriving on track 1, the Big Pig"
@@TooManyHobbiesJeremy My first ever purchase is my Railking Pennsy K4. Purchased in 2000. Proto 2 calls her the Red Arrow. Railking engines were made much better and more detailed back then.
K4, nice! I'll get an O gauge steamer one of these days. I have my eye on a couple- Dreyfuss Hudson, the early Lionel sure looks cool and the MTH is stunning. The other is a 440 or 460 MTH old west style.
The ROW transformer might work on all these engines.
That was a fun rabbit hole to go down😎 The ROW appears to be an impressive transformer. With a bell and whistle button it would certainly be possible.
@@TooManyHobbiesJeremy It’s said to be the best transformer ever made. Shame not many were made.
I'm having trouble getting my proto sounds off my z 1000 I don't know if it's me or my timing it's frustrating if you have any pointers it might help if I can't get the buttons to work I'm going to get a DC's remote control
Hi Dave, I'll be happy to see what I can do. Questions, what engine are running? What actions are you trying to accomplish? Describe in detail what happens when you put the engine on the track, what & how the z1000 controls are used & what you expect to happen.
Yes I will let you know I will be watching for more of your videos very helpful
Look up PCS issue with non sine AC, some gen 1 can only work with the z-4000 and do not like the lionel nw80, LOTS of forum post
Love the video and nice to know because I have gotten some Railking sets and just got a MTH NYC P2 (look it up, it's BIG)
Thing is, are you aware of the issue with proto sound with some throttles? Something about not true sine-wave AC and will cause erratic operation . (look up issue in forums) I was lloking up this because looking up info on my MTH NYC P2 (look at picture of one, cool looking) . Crazy enough this needs O-72 curves (thank you Menards).
Also notice you are using a z-500 with a PCS1 loco with no issues. (heard that it does not effects all PCS)
Thanks
Bill
That P2 box cab decorated for the NYC sure is nice looking. Thanks for the great comment. Yea, I started with the Z-500 and my proto 1 EP-5. It's still going strong. But I've upgraded to the Z-4000 (super nice).
@@TooManyHobbiesJeremy I just hoping to the proto sound issues I have heard of, it does also cause jerky operations
Can I run a proto 2 on a Lionel CW 80?
While I'm not a fan of the CW80- proto 2 is pretty robust. If that's the only transformer you have, then go for it.
@@TooManyHobbiesJeremy I’m trying to run it with the transformer and I don’t think it is working, I am also trying the mth app but that is confusing as well. I have a phase iv genesis
@@TooManyHobbiesJeremy Didn’t work on both the app and transformer, the app wouldn’t even search to find the engine and the minute the genesis moved an inch it would short or just shut off. I don’t know what to do, I’m running it on fast track with the crossing accessories, is that the problem?
Hmm, I doubt it. For testing purposes you could just set up a small section of track (straight or curved) on the bench or floor Isolated from the rest of your layout.
@@TooManyHobbiesJeremy Well I have the fastrack gateless crossing and every time my CSX lionchief goes over it it shuts off idk if I’m losing voltage in my track, would it be because I took out the neutral tab in one of my straight tracks
Sometimes electronics does what it wants. I always say that it works on a whim and a prayer. Your video does verify this …..no?
For sure! Here's a video that illustrates that. It shows off a nos MTH Alco PA. Near the end of the video I test it out. I thought the electronics were wacky but learned that my DCS Commander doesn't like getting it's power from the outputs of my Z-500 controller. Lesson learned 😒 th-cam.com/video/6PkXsm0m5IA/w-d-xo.html
Why don't you try using A ZWLW transformer it'll show you that for proto one it won't move the engine because of the sign waves watch show that on your Videos
Great idea! I love to test stuff. So you are saying the proto 1 won't work with a Lionel ZW or LW transformer?
I'm talking about a Lionel trains ZW - LW transformer the brand new one with all the gages on it or A CW 80 transformer the pro 1 will not work with this type of transformer because of the s waves
I'm saying that it's not the old LZW or the LW it's the YNLZW - LW transformer or the CW80 transformer because of the way it set up with the S waves in the transformer this is the one with all the gages on it
Thanks for the clarification. I show my favorite locomotive (MTH proto 1 EP5) running pretty good with a original CW 80. But I certainly don't like the soft start that transformer has when changing directions. Here's the link to that video-
th-cam.com/video/uPwwJTUhNsA/w-d-xo.html
Save your money do not buy any brand new Lionel engines whatsoever. They will arrive with detail Parts broken and or missing. Customer service sucks repairs take forever. How much of the price you pay for that locomotive is the name on The Box? I don't use my MTH PS2 locomotives because I don't want to argue with the computer to shut itself down.
Thanks for the comment. What PS2 locomotives do you own?
@@TooManyHobbiesJeremy I have 3 PS2 diesel locomotives that I got with some MTA train sets. I have a New York Central gp7 a Pennsylvania rs2 and a Union Pacific gp7 that I got that set by accident because I asked the dealer about it and he thought I wanted it so he kicked it with the other two and I've just kept it in the Box. I have a 12 x 16 ft High rail layout that is basically for ovals of track with increasing radius to run larger engines on the outer tracks. I prefer my Williams locomotives because they are nice and simple to service because all you have to do is grease the trucks once in a blue moon. When the circuit boards go out I wire in rectifiers so I just run them forward only with no Bells no whistles no crew talk no bulshit. Years ago I spoke to mph about they're discontinuing conventional controlled locomotive and they said it was easier for them to just have one line of locomotives and so you have to buy one with all the bells and whistles. I sent a steam turbine to them for repairs and the repairs would have cost more than what I paid for the whole train set. Instead of paying for postage to ship it back to the house I told them just toss it in the garbage.
I like the sound of your layout. I have fun running the big stuff every once and awhile. It's interesting - a few years ago, all I was running was stuff with sound. And it is great fun! But when I got some post war Lionel FA-2 units it hit home how much fun it is to just run trains, regardless of if they have all the prototypical sounds or not.
I am running proto sound 3 all my engines are that it's when I press the buttons to trigger the sounds nothing happens I think my timing is off on how you time the presses I think I'm going to get the dcs commander I watched your video it's very helpful I think I'll be better off my engines run beautiful I get can chatter thanks for your reply I really enjoyed your video when I get the dcs commander I'll know just how to set it up
Sounds good. Yes, to access various functions (station sounds, coupler release, etc) the timing of button presses is critical. I look forward to hearing how the commander works out for you.
I have something that you just might be able to help me with - I just purchased a MTH 30-1128-1 P1 (a 2-8-4 Berkshire) and a MTH 40-1000 Z-1000 transformer - I know NOTHING about how delicate these new trains are, very new to the hobby, my starter set was a Lionel LionCheif - That said I am running my layout on FasTrack
Right now I'd be VERY happy if I could just run this new engine! I hooked up the Z-1000 to the fastrack layout (nothing fancy, no switches, or accessories, just a basic oval - I have more! just working on layout table), hook up the train to the tender, place it on the track, slowly push the transformer's throttle up, and!.... nothing... it just sits there - I shouldn't say nothing, there's power going to it, the lights turn on, and the soundbox hummms. When I press the directional buttons, nothing (power goes on/off while button is pressed), and the horn and bell button does kind of the same - I played with it some, I'm just nervous about how fragile it is, and figured it really wasn't worth running too many experiments - Tips or thoughts? Thanks!!!
PS: Yes, I tried switching the power connection leads (just incase I was an idiot and had power flowing the reverse direction) - I am also using wire to the track prongs to power (so cuffs on the bottom of the track, and then raw wire tails to the Z1000 terminals)
@@nelsonnoname001 Wow, what a neat steam engine (I just downloaded the manual). I'd be happy to help you out. Feel free to send me an email to cadkid1965@gmail.com // This engine is a proto sound 1 engine. The first thing you should do is pop open the tender and yank out that old rechargeable battery. Temporarily put a new 9 volt standard battery in it's place.
Protosound 1 was the first electronics system that MTH put in it's locos. It's not a fragile system BUT it is not as robust as protosound 2 and 3.
After the battery swap, double check the connections from the tender to the loco are solid. Put the loco on the track, set the voltage at 1/2 then press and release the direction button. Hopefully the engine will get moving in forward. If it doesn't you may have to "reset" the electronics.
If you don't have the engine manual download it from MTH (do a google search). The manual explains how to do a full reset and how to lock/unlock the reverse unit.
Let me know if you make progress.
Jeremy
@@TooManyHobbiesJeremy Hey Jeremy, thanks' for reaching out! I really want to just toss a 9v into it and try to get it going like you said. That said, I went to a train show over the weekend and asked around, just for some face to face opinions/conversations. It was more or less if you got a bunch of 19th century surgeons from around the country in the same room and were trying to diagnose a sick kid, I've heard everything from just "put a 9v battery in it and you'll be fine" ;-) - to - " NOOOO! WHAT DID YOU DO, WHY DID YOU TURN ON THE POWER TO IT, YOU WEREN'T SUPOSSED TO DO THAT! YOU'VE RUINED THE BOARD AND THEY DON'T MAKE THOSE ANYMORE!", also heard it can take up to a year to fix a model train nowadays (really? is this true?).
Everyone who seemed to know what they were talking about seemed to loath MTH P1's though! Haha (said the 2's and 3's were much more user friendly) makes sense why I got it so cheap... shame it's a beautiful engine. There was a guy who owns a local model railroad hobby shop, said he would take a look and try to diagnose/fix it next week ($45... IDK if that's normal or if he should be in the HVAC business ha) I'll keep you posted.
Will say as a newbie to the hobby, if there was a chance of ruining the unit just by powering it on - MAYBE THEY SHOULD INCLUDE A PAPER SAYING - STOP!!! DO NOT USE UNTIL BATTERY IS REPLACED! FML Facepalm
I have several protosound 1 engines. I will keep buying them because they can be cheap. Based on my experience you won't fry the board by testing with a 9v battery. Your mileage may vary. The battery just keeps the sound system operating for a few seconds when you run over a section of bad track and for the shut down sound sequence. The running with no battery or a bad battery is just something you learn to watch out for. Like hey- check the car engine oil before you start a car you pulled out of a barn. If I'm selling you some car in a barn as is, I'm not going to list off things you should check or shouldn't do. I just want my money 😁
The memory can get scrambled by the battery issue (resolved in ver 2&3). A reset chip was offered to help get the electronics reset.
Take a good look at the proto board. Look for obvious burned components, broken wires, etc. I would try the battery for a short time. After an initial inspection that's what a repair person would do.
Best of luck. Don't get trapped in "analysis paralysis" . Making mistakes & learning from them is how I've gained a lot of knowledge.
@@TooManyHobbiesJeremy Haha I'll try not to, just hard with expectations and then the surprise void that seems can be this hobby - Sound or not, since it won't move, I'll just be happy if I can run it around on the track like it's the 1950's! - Far from a "barn car" guess it would be more like a showroom car and the owner of the dealership just died, this thing looks like it came right from the MTH assembly line, well-oiled and greased (all the more frustrating that it won't run) - Thank Ya sir! =)