Thanks for this presentation...Having known very little of the SAS and the war efforts in either Africa or Italy...Rogue Heroes was an excellent introduction to the viewpoint of the fighting on this front, and some of the main characters. It's great to spend some time learning about the reality of these characters that started the SAS...to get a bit away from the fiction.
Great discussion. Thank you. It is really interesting that this programme has created some real fans and haters but I have to say I liked season 1, disliked season 2 for many of the reasons you mentioned but just feel really happy it got made because British TV generally dislikes our own history and it was good to see something which was not ashamed of our history(even though it skirted around the truth). Also I remember Major Dale Dye once being asked why there was not much mention of the British Armed Forces in Band of Brothers and his answer was, maybe the British should make their own series and then they can talk about the British Armed forces in WW2 and he was right.
Thanks for this episode. An interesting aspect is, a movie made in the 1960s could cement a myth very soludly. But in the internet age, those very interested can quickly find something closer to the truth... as long as fellows like you help us find it, from a position of authority.
What I’ve been saying all along. It’s a great starting point ! I bet Damien and Ben etc have had book sales go up in the past 12 months. I like to think I know a fair amount but it inspired me to do deeper and research more. I think it can only be positive. Some people are being too protective ! It will also inspire writers and film makers to look into other SAS stories! There’s no many film and series that could be made !! * if you want a Band of Brothers production you need someone a lot bigger than the bbc to fund it! BOB had HBO! Bet they had a movie budget!
I honestly have never minded things not being too historically accurate, only because it makes it fun to look what really happened after watching, if that make sense? Great video
Venn Diagram happiness. I enjoy serious history and also a good action drama series. As long as the action series gets the main point across, as far as I understand things, the level of overlap doesn’t cause me too much stress. Just discovered that I can now stream the rest of series 1 beyond episode 2 without paying extra. WW2 TV helped me with both categories. 👍
i do compleatly understand putting modern music into a historical Drama. It allows the vewier to associate with the people of the past and build a connection so then they can see it almost through there eyes the same as they did in a knights tale. And it does work extremely well so i will defend that
Really good appraisal thank you for clearing up some of the mish mash that often happens as artistic endeavor and historical reality go head to head in a 45 minute time frame of a show that's 6 episodes or so. Really found it quite enjoyable especially season 1. As a former soldier of the 80s I grew up listening to my relatives and later friends who served in almost all theatre's of WW2, The basically speak of an era where the stodgy old army and military in general had to undertake immense change in a quick time with junior officers and nco's and soldiers who sometimes saw things differently and weren't of the cast systems and broke rules to get their jobs done or to prove that something could be done which didn't always sit well with many. I agree they should have shown if only briefly Col. Mane doing his do dilligance in preparing his plans for his units participation. But it's still a show and we have you and your great guests to help some of us move through the bull stuff hahaha 😂. Have to find your guests books. Thanks again 👍😊 Cheers from Detroit
Well not on WW2TV as it is beyond our parameters, plus I don't know how many people will have even heard of it. I saw it at the time, and indeed I have spoken to Paul McGann about it briefly, but I think it's been largely forgotten
I'm intrigued that Tom Petch went from being a tank commander to a member of the SAS. The husband of one of my relatives made a similar progression in WWII: RTR, in North Africa, I believe, followed by SAS. I think he was in the Aegean theatre, but he was of the generation which had even more reasons than most veterans for not talking about his experiences of war. Ironically, I did know while he was still alive that he was an SAS veteran, but found out about his RTR service only from his obituary in The Scotsman.
Some great clarifications to know about before watching Season 2, definitely filled in a lot of gaps for me. In Australia it airs on SBS (free to air) but S2 wont air until Feb 26. S1 was quite popular here.
Excellent show, Tom did a fantastic job in explaining the reality and the myth, with an honest appraisal of the series in general. No doubt in anybody's minds should remain on what a legend Blair 'Paddy' Mayne was. RIP BIG MAN
As I recall from what I was told by an old sweat visiting Stirling Lines that Col. David did escape in Italy, did a recce, broke back into the POW camp with the intention of leading several out on an escape to fight with the partisans unil they were liberated by the Allies. That plan was prevented with the Italian surrender and the German's taking over. I know from a late, close friend in a different camp in Italy was glad to go to Germany as they were on starvation rations. Starvation rations didn’t return until the latter months of the War. I wish that HBO had made the program... Trooper Bear
Preparations and planning are much more detailed at all rank levels are much more detailed than any other Regiment. Whether it be an Operation or training Exercise, even if everything went extremely well, the debriefs are just as detailed at all rank levels. Everything may have gone extremely well, but couldit it have been better. Trooper Bear
Here's my honest take on SAS: Rogue Heroes. Before I start, I'll just state that I haven't watched the whole of Series 2 because I honestly didn't enjoy it enough to bother doing so, but I did manage to grind through Season 1 so my review is up to Episode 2, Season 2. Maybe I'll watch the rest someday, maybe I won't. Firstly, the positives. I thought that the settings were fantastic, the desert scenery was incredible, the ballroom/dance room design made for great eye candy and the Mediterranean scenery was generally excellent as well (at least up until where I stopped watching). The casting of Stirling, Seekings, Lewes, Cooper and Sadler was spot on, in my opinion. The casting of most other characters was alright with the exception of Mayne who was terribly cast by Jack O'Connell, an actor I generally quite like but was ill-suited for this role (I'll get onto the depiction of Mayne later). The props and costumes I felt were generally quite accurate, especially in Season 1. I know a lot of people didn't like the sun glasses the characters often wore, but they were actually pretty accurate. The uniforms were generally fairly accurate in Season 1, but I felt that they looked far too clean given the hot sweaty conditions and the sand that got everywhere. In Season 2, the costumes became more punk-rock-style than 1940s British military, in my opinion, and how they wore it was often incorrect as well. I also thought the costumes looked a bit cheap, but I think that can be forgiven since actual British Army uniforms were also quite cheaply made as well. The vehicles and weapons were also fairly accurate, especially in Season 1, but the bazookas in Season 2 ruined any historical accuracy they were aiming for in that Season 2.
Now for the negatives. The depictions of historical characters was generally poor as was the acting, not because the actors aren't talented - I like a lot of them in other productions - but, they were told to be have like a mixture of stereotypical hard-men, young offenders and pro-wrestlers rather than elite soldiers. Don't get me wrong the men of the SAS got into scraps with each other quite often, but they weren't always abrasive and confrontational, gobbing off at each other and for the sake of the story, the characters didn't need to be either. Speaking of scrapping with each other. The hand-to-hand combat choreography was terrible. It was worse than watching WWE, at least WWE wrestlers make it look as if they contact with each other as they wrestle, albeit not very hard. In Rogue Heroes, at times, it barely looked as thought they were touching each other, let alone fighting each other. Given that these brawl scenes were so atrocious, you would have thought the director and producers would have kept them to minimum, but they didn't and that was to the show's detriment. The gunfight scenes were generally solid, in my opinion. The writing was bizarre however, at times it was nuanced, sophisticated and engaging, but at others it was like a teenager wrote it and that was a massive turn off for me. For instance, take the scene at the start of Episode 1, Season 1 where Stirling is in the bar with the Aussie soldiers. Aside from the depiction of how enlisted Aussie behaved around a British officer which was painfully inaccurate. When they ask Stirling if he's ever seen an Italian, Stirling replies that Australian wildlife was designed by a lunatic and for some reason they get offended by this. What if Stirling instead responded that he hadn't seen any Italians, but he had seen German Fallschirmjagers on Crete, and that it was the Germans who were winning the war whilst the Australians wasted their time fighting Italians. In a couple of sentences the writers establish to the audience that Stirling was at Crete, that he saw the Fallschirmjagers who, in part, inspired the SAS and pisses off the Australians by insinuating they're inferior to him because they have been fighting the supposedly weaker Italians whilst loosing friends to them. Then, rather than threaten them with a canary (which I found both strange and cringe) how about Stirling starts schmoozing up to them, displaying the charm, suave and diplomacy that helped him establish the SAS in the first place. I somehow doubt two battle-hardened Australians are going to be intimidated by a single skinny Scottish aristocrat even if he claims to be a Commando. There were many other examples of missed opportunities by the writers and simplifying the writing, presumably to appeal to younger audiences
Finally, for the two things that I disliked the most. The French-Algerian spy character, Eve Mansour and the depiction of "Paddy" Mayne. I disliked the Eve Mansour character immensely. I can understand and accept her being fictional. These type of stories often need "flywheel characters" - characters who keep the story moving inbetween the flashes and bangs by asking the questions that the audience are thinking, but the main characters can't ask because in the story they already know and it would just look stupid and repetitive for them to say it. However, because Eve was almost never with the SAS in Season 1, she couldn't ask the main characters what they were doing or why they were doing it on our behalf, so she instead was always asking Clarke who only told her about things we had already seen on screen, making the questioning a complete waste of time. Let's be clear, this character and the actress depicting her were chosen for two reasons. One was sex appeal which I didn't feel was necessary, but I suppose was meant to appeal to a wider mainstream, non-historical audience. The second was diversity. They wanted a female character with North African heritage. I'm okay with this, females and North Africans fought and served in the Allied armies and intelligence services so its only fair to have them depicted. Season 1 was set in North Africa after all, it would be borderline offensive not to depict some North Africans in a show set in North Africa, but the character was so underwhelming and cliche. Eve was nothing a cookie-cutter 21st century heroine. You could put her character into any film or TV show and she wouldn't have added anything. You could also take her out of Rogue Heroes and you wouldn't lose much (or anything in my opinion). Also because she didn't behave like a 1940s North African woman, always talking about either sex, espionage or De Gaulle's agenda (which was largely irrelevant), she didn't give us a proper insight into what the indigenous populations were thinking or feeling of this war which made having a fictitious, North African character almost redundant. Honestly, all I saw when I watched Eve was a 21st century Parisian, not an early 20th century Algerian. How many Algerians watching the show can see their grandmothers in Eve? Probably very few. If all characters, of all different ethnic backgrounds behave like 21st century Westerners, I think we need to discuss whether this is genuine diversity and, if not, whether it's actually even worth including in film. I would have much preferred to see her depicted as maybe a Bedouin woman in a tribe who helped shelter, give food or trade information with the SAS which actually happened in real life. I think that would not only be more historically accurate, but would also give valuable historical insight into the indigenous civilian population and their plight under the British and Italians. It would also depict a braver, more grounded character risking her life to help strangers behind enemy lines rather than a diva whose tucked away safely in Cairo.
The depiction of Paddy Mayne was by far the worst thing about this show. He was depicted as psychopathic, poetry reciting weirdo who enjoyed killing for the sake of it. They introduced him in a prison (which has never been proven), breaking out which never happened and getting arrested again. That is libelous, depicting a man be arrested without proof and if Mayne were still around and the show wasn't produced by the BBC who are immune from being sued he could sue for defamation. He was played by an actor who looked little like him, and could never depict the size and presence of the real man. O'Connell portrayed Mayne as a man with an extremely savage Napoleonic complex which the real Mayne didn't have since he was 6'3 feet tall. They also, for some reason, seemed to try to depict Mayne as working class, calling Stirling a "toff" and the letter he sent to his sister was sent to bungalow, whilst in reality the Mayne family were prominent landowners and landlords who lived in a big country estate. They also insinuated him being prejudiced against Catholics which if dubious. You'll have a hard time convincing me that Mayne was anti-Catholic since many of his best friends were Catholic Irish from the Republic, he played proudly for Ireland internationally in rugby, he allowed people to call him Paddy which many anti-Irish types would not allow and was known to avoid talking about Northern Irish politics which is not something anti-Catholics or Unionist/Loyalist types are like, they're generally quite outspoken in their views. They also hinted at him being gay which there is no proof of and he would probably be insulted by since he came from a conservative Ulster protestant background. I don't blame Mayne's niece being upset about the depiction and attempting to sue the BBC over profiteering from a slanderous portrayal of her uncle, a respected war hero. Mayne wasn't perfect, he was a brawler and he did murder Axis pilots, but he did it so they wouldn't hunt and kill him or, most importantly, his men. Why is it fair for pilots to bomb and strafe unarmed soldiers on the ground, but soldiers can't shoot unarmed pilots also on the ground? That's what Mayne would have been thinking. I'm not condoning it, but I can understand it from his point of view. If this is how we are going to honour our heroes I think we need to have a real hard look at ourselves. I firmly believe one of the reasons Mayne fought was to maintain his dignity and we are failing him by allowing companies to profit from fictionalising his deeds and character in a slanderous manner. I like good historical fiction, but I am becoming concerned by the increasing trend of taking real life historical characters and fictionising them for profit. If they created a fictional character based on Mayne that's fine, but using his name and image and then distorting it doesn't sit right with me.
I have watched Rogue Heroes consistently, whilst gritting my teeth against the inaccuracies, particularly the depiction of Paddy Mayne. It seems like the writer has set off a jumping jack in the the historical train, and selected the bits that it briefly lands on, to depict. The story is disjointed, with little of the planning that obviously must have been meticulous. My overwhelming takeaway is that the men of the SAS/SRS were extremely well trained, experienced and disciplined with strong personal bonds across the ranks. Without these qualities none of their ops could have been as successful as they were. A more linear narrative would have been preferable. The music… superb !! It just fits so well, the perfect counterpoint to the history.
Amazon is only releasing one episode per week, so we won't see the final episode till near the end of February. I have to agree that this season they have gone full Peaky Blinders with the characters and as you say getting WWII series in front of people is important however they have to do it also love the music tracks, I see no reason in this style of format why period music would be necessary. As always enjoyed the discussion and explanation of some of the real characters portrayed in this series.
I thought the portrayal of the raid on Capo Murro di Porco was alright, but I had an issue with the scene where they sail past the drowning Glider troops at Sicily. Of course that did happen but they would never have been able to hear them call out that clearly, the LCA engines would have been roaring over it, yet in the scene it's as if the engines are just turned off. Then they also don't show that those same LCA's picked up many men from the water on their way back. Rubbed me the wrong way how they used that for drama.
I have started to watch the series after this video. But i do get a little bit annoyed by Paddy Mayne. Was he so angry and short-fused in real life too? Also the series don’t feel ‘authentic’ in the way band of brothers was filmed. But maybe it’s just me? Overall it’s not that bad. Have to read the book from Ben this year.
You make some good points. I did not like Fury as the dialogue was modern street American talk And Passendale the Canadian movie was similar. As an older guy in my seventies I do not like this!
About what specifically? I don't think historians disagree about anything fundamental to the SAS timeline and history. However, with someone as complicated as Paddy Mayne, the experiences of the various people who met him paint very different pictures as to his personality and motivations
@ so I take it that people are always the week link in writing down history. It comes down to the first person to get their book out to set the narrative?
A great presentation and I really like hearing and reading about the real events. I have grown tired of the brooding, drunken, rowdy boy character of Paddy in the TV Show. I am not going to watch the rest of the second season.
But it's the same old STEREOTYPICAL SH** - with a little more trouble they could have made a SO much better, more interesting, truthful and JUST as action-packed and dramatic series 😠😠😠😠
Enjoyable and very interesting; liked the conversational back and forth between host and guest - it worked very well.
Thanks for this presentation...Having known very little of the SAS and the war efforts in either Africa or Italy...Rogue Heroes was an excellent introduction to the viewpoint of the fighting on this front, and some of the main characters. It's great to spend some time learning about the reality of these characters that started the SAS...to get a bit away from the fiction.
Thanks Drew, I hope you will watch some more of our content
Thanks Woody.
Great discussion. Thank you. It is really interesting that this programme has created some real fans and haters but I have to say I liked season 1, disliked season 2 for many of the reasons you mentioned but just feel really happy it got made because British TV generally dislikes our own history and it was good to see something which was not ashamed of our history(even though it skirted around the truth). Also I remember Major Dale Dye once being asked why there was not much mention of the British Armed Forces in Band of Brothers and his answer was, maybe the British should make their own series and then they can talk about the British Armed forces in WW2 and he was right.
Since reading it I have thought James Holland’s superb account of the Sherwood Rangers war from Normandy to.the war’s end, Brothers In Arms.
……Would make an excellent series.
Thanks for this episode.
An interesting aspect is, a movie made in the 1960s could cement a myth very soludly. But in the internet age, those very interested can quickly find something closer to the truth... as long as fellows like you help us find it, from a position of authority.
Very interesting presentation. Thank you Tom and Woody.
Thanks for a brilliant episode gents.
What I’ve been saying all along. It’s a great starting point ! I bet Damien and Ben etc have had book sales go up in the past 12 months.
I like to think I know a fair amount but it inspired me to do deeper and research more. I think it can only be positive. Some people are being too protective !
It will also inspire writers and film makers to look into other SAS stories! There’s no many film and series that could be made !!
* if you want a Band of Brothers production you need someone a lot bigger than the bbc to fund it! BOB had HBO! Bet they had a movie budget!
What a brilliant presentation by Tom, thank you so very much. I really enjoyed Rogue Hero’s, even with its inaccuracies. Many thanks Tom and Woody
Many thanks!
I honestly have never minded things not being too historically accurate, only because it makes it fun to look what really happened after watching, if that make sense? Great video
Great show :)
Venn Diagram happiness. I enjoy serious history and also a good action drama series. As long as the action series gets the main point across, as far as I understand things, the level of overlap doesn’t cause me too much stress. Just discovered that I can now stream the rest of series 1 beyond episode 2 without paying extra. WW2 TV helped me with both categories. 👍
i do compleatly understand putting modern music into a historical Drama. It allows the vewier to associate with the people of the past and build a connection so then they can see it almost through there eyes the same as they did in a knights tale. And it does work extremely well so i will defend that
Really good appraisal thank you for clearing up some of the mish mash that often happens as artistic endeavor and historical reality go head to head in a 45 minute time frame of a show that's 6 episodes or so. Really found it quite enjoyable especially season 1. As a former soldier of the 80s I grew up listening to my relatives and later friends who served in almost all theatre's of WW2, The basically speak of an era where the stodgy old army and military in general had to undertake immense change in a quick time with junior officers and nco's and soldiers who sometimes saw things differently and weren't of the cast systems and broke rules to get their jobs done or to prove that something could be done which didn't always sit well with many. I agree they should have shown if only briefly Col. Mane doing his do dilligance in preparing his plans for his units participation.
But it's still a show and we have you and your great guests to help some of us move through the bull stuff hahaha 😂.
Have to find your guests books.
Thanks again 👍😊
Cheers from Detroit
well can you now give an appriasal of the monocled mutineer , the closest to the ww1 mutinies a tv drama ever got to screen
Well not on WW2TV as it is beyond our parameters, plus I don't know how many people will have even heard of it. I saw it at the time, and indeed I have spoken to Paul McGann about it briefly, but I think it's been largely forgotten
@@TheInnacity that would be interesting, I've never heard of it.
@@WW2TV but I just ordered your guests book on the SAS. Good show thanks for bringing this to us.
Cheers
I'm intrigued that Tom Petch went from being a tank commander to a member of the SAS. The husband of one of my relatives made a similar progression in WWII: RTR, in North Africa, I believe, followed by SAS. I think he was in the Aegean theatre, but he was of the generation which had even more reasons than most veterans for not talking about his experiences of war. Ironically, I did know while he was still alive that he was an SAS veteran, but found out about his RTR service only from his obituary in The Scotsman.
Some great clarifications to know about before watching Season 2, definitely filled in a lot of gaps for me. In Australia it airs on SBS (free to air) but S2 wont air until Feb 26. S1 was quite popular here.
Excellent show, Tom did a fantastic job in explaining the reality and the myth, with an honest appraisal of the series in general.
No doubt in anybody's minds should remain on what a legend Blair 'Paddy' Mayne was.
RIP BIG MAN
very interesting discussion Woody
As I recall from what I was told by an old sweat visiting Stirling Lines that Col. David did escape in Italy, did a recce, broke back into the POW camp with the intention of leading several out on an escape to fight with the partisans unil they were liberated by the Allies. That plan was prevented with the Italian surrender and the German's taking over.
I know from a late, close friend in a different camp in Italy was glad to go to Germany as they were on starvation rations. Starvation rations didn’t return until the latter months of the War.
I wish that HBO had made the program... Trooper Bear
Preparations and planning are much more detailed at all rank levels are much more detailed than any other Regiment. Whether it be an Operation or training Exercise, even if everything went extremely well, the debriefs are just as detailed at all rank levels. Everything may have gone extremely well, but couldit it have been better.
Trooper Bear
29:45 Well Woody there were twin VIckers K's shown being used in series 1, during the Benina Raid
Here's my honest take on SAS: Rogue Heroes. Before I start, I'll just state that I haven't watched the whole of Series 2 because I honestly didn't enjoy it enough to bother doing so, but I did manage to grind through Season 1 so my review is up to Episode 2, Season 2. Maybe I'll watch the rest someday, maybe I won't.
Firstly, the positives. I thought that the settings were fantastic, the desert scenery was incredible, the ballroom/dance room design made for great eye candy and the Mediterranean scenery was generally excellent as well (at least up until where I stopped watching).
The casting of Stirling, Seekings, Lewes, Cooper and Sadler was spot on, in my opinion. The casting of most other characters was alright with the exception of Mayne who was terribly cast by Jack O'Connell, an actor I generally quite like but was ill-suited for this role (I'll get onto the depiction of Mayne later).
The props and costumes I felt were generally quite accurate, especially in Season 1. I know a lot of people didn't like the sun glasses the characters often wore, but they were actually pretty accurate. The uniforms were generally fairly accurate in Season 1, but I felt that they looked far too clean given the hot sweaty conditions and the sand that got everywhere. In Season 2, the costumes became more punk-rock-style than 1940s British military, in my opinion, and how they wore it was often incorrect as well. I also thought the costumes looked a bit cheap, but I think that can be forgiven since actual British Army uniforms were also quite cheaply made as well.
The vehicles and weapons were also fairly accurate, especially in Season 1, but the bazookas in Season 2 ruined any historical accuracy they were aiming for in that Season 2.
Now for the negatives. The depictions of historical characters was generally poor as was the acting, not because the actors aren't talented - I like a lot of them in other productions - but, they were told to be have like a mixture of stereotypical hard-men, young offenders and pro-wrestlers rather than elite soldiers. Don't get me wrong the men of the SAS got into scraps with each other quite often, but they weren't always abrasive and confrontational, gobbing off at each other and for the sake of the story, the characters didn't need to be either.
Speaking of scrapping with each other. The hand-to-hand combat choreography was terrible. It was worse than watching WWE, at least WWE wrestlers make it look as if they contact with each other as they wrestle, albeit not very hard. In Rogue Heroes, at times, it barely looked as thought they were touching each other, let alone fighting each other. Given that these brawl scenes were so atrocious, you would have thought the director and producers would have kept them to minimum, but they didn't and that was to the show's detriment. The gunfight scenes were generally solid, in my opinion.
The writing was bizarre however, at times it was nuanced, sophisticated and engaging, but at others it was like a teenager wrote it and that was a massive turn off for me.
For instance, take the scene at the start of Episode 1, Season 1 where Stirling is in the bar with the Aussie soldiers. Aside from the depiction of how enlisted Aussie behaved around a British officer which was painfully inaccurate. When they ask Stirling if he's ever seen an Italian, Stirling replies that Australian wildlife was designed by a lunatic and for some reason they get offended by this.
What if Stirling instead responded that he hadn't seen any Italians, but he had seen German Fallschirmjagers on Crete, and that it was the Germans who were winning the war whilst the Australians wasted their time fighting Italians. In a couple of sentences the writers establish to the audience that Stirling was at Crete, that he saw the Fallschirmjagers who, in part, inspired the SAS and pisses off the Australians by insinuating they're inferior to him because they have been fighting the supposedly weaker Italians whilst loosing friends to them.
Then, rather than threaten them with a canary (which I found both strange and cringe) how about Stirling starts schmoozing up to them, displaying the charm, suave and diplomacy that helped him establish the SAS in the first place. I somehow doubt two battle-hardened Australians are going to be intimidated by a single skinny Scottish aristocrat even if he claims to be a Commando.
There were many other examples of missed opportunities by the writers and simplifying the writing, presumably to appeal to younger audiences
Finally, for the two things that I disliked the most. The French-Algerian spy character, Eve Mansour and the depiction of "Paddy" Mayne.
I disliked the Eve Mansour character immensely. I can understand and accept her being fictional. These type of stories often need "flywheel characters" - characters who keep the story moving inbetween the flashes and bangs by asking the questions that the audience are thinking, but the main characters can't ask because in the story they already know and it would just look stupid and repetitive for them to say it. However, because Eve was almost never with the SAS in Season 1, she couldn't ask the main characters what they were doing or why they were doing it on our behalf, so she instead was always asking Clarke who only told her about things we had already seen on screen, making the questioning a complete waste of time.
Let's be clear, this character and the actress depicting her were chosen for two reasons. One was sex appeal which I didn't feel was necessary, but I suppose was meant to appeal to a wider mainstream, non-historical audience.
The second was diversity. They wanted a female character with North African heritage. I'm okay with this, females and North Africans fought and served in the Allied armies and intelligence services so its only fair to have them depicted. Season 1 was set in North Africa after all, it would be borderline offensive not to depict some North Africans in a show set in North Africa, but the character was so underwhelming and cliche. Eve was nothing a cookie-cutter 21st century heroine. You could put her character into any film or TV show and she wouldn't have added anything. You could also take her out of Rogue Heroes and you wouldn't lose much (or anything in my opinion).
Also because she didn't behave like a 1940s North African woman, always talking about either sex, espionage or De Gaulle's agenda (which was largely irrelevant), she didn't give us a proper insight into what the indigenous populations were thinking or feeling of this war which made having a fictitious, North African character almost redundant.
Honestly, all I saw when I watched Eve was a 21st century Parisian, not an early 20th century Algerian. How many Algerians watching the show can see their grandmothers in Eve? Probably very few. If all characters, of all different ethnic backgrounds behave like 21st century Westerners, I think we need to discuss whether this is genuine diversity and, if not, whether it's actually even worth including in film.
I would have much preferred to see her depicted as maybe a Bedouin woman in a tribe who helped shelter, give food or trade information with the SAS which actually happened in real life. I think that would not only be more historically accurate, but would also give valuable historical insight into the indigenous civilian population and their plight under the British and Italians. It would also depict a braver, more grounded character risking her life to help strangers behind enemy lines rather than a diva whose tucked away safely in Cairo.
The depiction of Paddy Mayne was by far the worst thing about this show. He was depicted as psychopathic, poetry reciting weirdo who enjoyed killing for the sake of it. They introduced him in a prison (which has never been proven), breaking out which never happened and getting arrested again. That is libelous, depicting a man be arrested without proof and if Mayne were still around and the show wasn't produced by the BBC who are immune from being sued he could sue for defamation.
He was played by an actor who looked little like him, and could never depict the size and presence of the real man. O'Connell portrayed Mayne as a man with an extremely savage Napoleonic complex which the real Mayne didn't have since he was 6'3 feet tall.
They also, for some reason, seemed to try to depict Mayne as working class, calling Stirling a "toff" and the letter he sent to his sister was sent to bungalow, whilst in reality the Mayne family were prominent landowners and landlords who lived in a big country estate.
They also insinuated him being prejudiced against Catholics which if dubious. You'll have a hard time convincing me that Mayne was anti-Catholic since many of his best friends were Catholic Irish from the Republic, he played proudly for Ireland internationally in rugby, he allowed people to call him Paddy which many anti-Irish types would not allow and was known to avoid talking about Northern Irish politics which is not something anti-Catholics or Unionist/Loyalist types are like, they're generally quite outspoken in their views.
They also hinted at him being gay which there is no proof of and he would probably be insulted by since he came from a conservative Ulster protestant background.
I don't blame Mayne's niece being upset about the depiction and attempting to sue the BBC over profiteering from a slanderous portrayal of her uncle, a respected war hero. Mayne wasn't perfect, he was a brawler and he did murder Axis pilots, but he did it so they wouldn't hunt and kill him or, most importantly, his men. Why is it fair for pilots to bomb and strafe unarmed soldiers on the ground, but soldiers can't shoot unarmed pilots also on the ground? That's what Mayne would have been thinking. I'm not condoning it, but I can understand it from his point of view.
If this is how we are going to honour our heroes I think we need to have a real hard look at ourselves. I firmly believe one of the reasons Mayne fought was to maintain his dignity and we are failing him by allowing companies to profit from fictionalising his deeds and character in a slanderous manner.
I like good historical fiction, but I am becoming concerned by the increasing trend of taking real life historical characters and fictionising them for profit. If they created a fictional character based on Mayne that's fine, but using his name and image and then distorting it doesn't sit right with me.
Paddy Mayne was a boxing champion in the army, represented Ireland and went on tour to South Africa with the British Lions played all their matches
Yes of course
I have watched Rogue Heroes consistently, whilst gritting my teeth against the inaccuracies, particularly the depiction of Paddy Mayne. It seems like the writer has set off a jumping jack in the the historical train, and selected the bits that it briefly lands on, to depict. The story is disjointed, with little of the planning that obviously must have been meticulous. My overwhelming takeaway is that the men of the SAS/SRS were extremely well trained, experienced and disciplined with strong personal bonds across the ranks. Without these qualities none of their ops could have been as successful as they were. A more linear narrative would have been preferable. The music… superb !! It just fits so well, the perfect counterpoint to the history.
Amazon is only releasing one episode per week, so we won't see the final episode till near the end of February. I have to agree that this season they have gone full Peaky Blinders with the characters and as you say getting WWII series in front of people is important however they have to do it also love the music tracks, I see no reason in this style of format why period music would be necessary. As always enjoyed the discussion and explanation of some of the real characters portrayed in this series.
I thought the portrayal of the raid on Capo Murro di Porco was alright, but I had an issue with the scene where they sail past the drowning Glider troops at Sicily. Of course that did happen but they would never have been able to hear them call out that clearly, the LCA engines would have been roaring over it, yet in the scene it's as if the engines are just turned off. Then they also don't show that those same LCA's picked up many men from the water on their way back. Rubbed me the wrong way how they used that for drama.
First thing I wanna know is did the SRS seriously sail by drowning paras in the 43 invasion of Sicily as ordered by Paddy Mayne!?
Tom addressed this in the show. There was no order given in advance by Mayne
Biggest travesty was why his VC was downgraded if ever a guy deserved a Victoria Cross it was Paddy Mayne!!
👌🏻👌🏻
I have started to watch the series after this video.
But i do get a little bit annoyed by Paddy Mayne. Was he so angry and short-fused in real life too?
Also the series don’t feel ‘authentic’ in the way band of brothers was filmed. But maybe it’s just me?
Overall it’s not that bad.
Have to read the book from Ben this year.
Only boy howdy, the civvy clothing in the show annoyed. I thought They looked so cool landing in Sicily in full battle rattle.
You make some good points.
I did not like Fury as the dialogue was modern street American talk
And Passendale the Canadian movie was similar.
As an older guy in my seventies I do not like this!
How does so many historians think differently if they all have the same information?
About what specifically? I don't think historians disagree about anything fundamental to the SAS timeline and history. However, with someone as complicated as Paddy Mayne, the experiences of the various people who met him paint very different pictures as to his personality and motivations
@ so I take it that people are always the week link in writing down history. It comes down to the first person to get their book out to set the narrative?
That can be a factor yes. There was definitely some self agrandising with the first postwar memoirs
These Tv programs are just highlights the achievements the founding of the sas lets be fair it’s artistic license and not historical fact
A great presentation and I really like hearing and reading about the real events. I have grown tired of the brooding, drunken, rowdy boy character of Paddy in the TV Show. I am not going to watch the rest of the second season.
Rogue Heroes got wrong "the Fat bloke"!!!
Adolf really hated the Commando's, when Antifa fight back.
But it's the same old STEREOTYPICAL SH** - with a little more trouble they could have made a SO much better, more interesting, truthful and JUST as action-packed and dramatic series 😠😠😠😠
What do you mean by stereotypical in this case?
Awful production, these men deserved far better
I disagree, but thanks for the comment
the good guys lost ww2
What a pathetic, attention seeking post. Jog on please Mr Nazi