I read "All Quit on the Western Front". The favorite German tool from trench fighting in the book was to use their short handled shovels as battle axes. Seemed to work pretty well. The people hit didn't seem to complain much.
The Americans took it one step further and honed their entrenchment tools to a razor sharp edge. It was a much more useful tool in trench combat compared to a Springfield with an M17/18 bayonet affixed.
I have an entrenching tool or two (I camp with them) & I can see it, I've used one to cut roots, clear brush, & hammer in pegs before now, I'd hate to get hit with one.
@@NM-wd7kx same the one i use the most is swiss made from 1940 and from what i can tell its basically the same design as the german ww1 e tools. Just finished putting an edge on it and honestly i can see why it was used like a battle axe its weighty, strong, easyish to maneuver especially with two hands, and a pretty hard chopper. Not saying its the best option but if i had to fight someone with a knife or smth id probably consider this before a knife or club
Speaking of wanting a long rifle for bayonet use: In WW2, the Japanese rifle, the Type 38 Arisaka, when combined with its bayonet, is longer than the average Japanese soldier was. The average Japanese soldier was approximately 5 foot 2, a type 38 with its bayonet attached is 5 foot 5.
Xybetrion I’ve seen illustrations from bayonet drill instruction manuals of how to use the hook to snare the blade of an enemy attacking with a sword or rifle with bayonet, so he’s not *entirely* wrong. I doubt it could actually *break* an enemy’s bayonet, but it could, in theory, be used to disarm an opponent. If I’m remembering correctly, the technique was something like, “thrust forward to meet the enemy’s bayonet with your own, while attempting to catch his blade with your bayonet hook. Then, quickly reverse your rifle, dragging the enemy towards you and directing his rifle to the side. Follow up by striking him with the butt of your rifle, knocking him to the ground to be finished off.” Regardless of how useful such a technique would actually be, I can imagine that having that hook as part of the hand guard would come in handy; if for no other reason than giving a soldier more leverage when pulling their bayonet out of a body when using it as a fighting knife.
@@D990990990 it happening at least a couple of times actually sounds plausible to me. We've all seen examples of how crude Japanese manufacturing got at the end of the war and the steel that had to be used wasnt always the best. All it takes is a bayonet being made of shoddy steel or a heat treat that didnt take to make it a possibility. No way it was common though
devlieg72 American service rifles don’t have bayonets with hooks on them. The main battle rifles that the U.S. brought into the war with Japan where the 1903 Springield and M1 Garand. Both used the m1905 bayonet which didn’t have a hook.
Modern-ish russian/soviet bayonets for use with AK platform are even called "штык-нож" which translates literally as a bayonet-knife, it's basically a normal knife that can be put on a rifle
Would you make a movie about John Malcolm Thorpe Fleming Churchill, nicknamed, "Mad Jack" because he fought through WWII with a Sword, Bow and Bagpipes. World War Two! When I first heard that I assumed that they meant World War One, but no he went through the second world war using these seemingly outdated weapons with the motto, “In my opinion…any officer who goes into action without his sword is improperly dressed.”
Re-posting my comment from the other video: Shovels and spades certainly weren't percussion weapons, but got sharpened all around. Particularly the Germans used them to great effect.
That's certainly true. In particular the British 1908 pattern Mk1 entrenching tool stands out, because the handle had a metal end cap. So you didn't even have to change much to get a very effective mace.
There's a reason for the length to be 12-17cm on average, and not a whole metre long. It's because that's just the best size for it. Overpenetration is a very real (and painful) thing, and a shorter size guarantees durable performance and ease of handling. Yes, Rapiers were insane weapons, but the "make it longer!" slippery slope didn't take long to get people in the arse and wishing for a shorter length. Smallswords were not a "devolution", it's about context.
The cutting off of the barrel ring was often done by armourers when decomisioning a bayonet - especially if it was going back to a soldier as a general use knife .
Very popular with Australians. Used on horseback at Beersheba in 1917. After both wars SMLE bayonets were the Australian civilian choice of general purpose hunting knife for generations. Still are and are still often found in garage sales and your grandfather's shed. Loads of them still in service and still available for sale. The Carl Gustav M96 bayonet appeared in Oz in large numbers and is also still used as a bush knife. I have three of them, two still in original grease and in perfect unused condition. If there is a national knife of Australia, it would be either of these bayonets.
brad mcpherson I have an m/96 Swedish mauser bayonet or two too, but then again, I'm Swedish so it's not as odd ;) Have you seen the Swedish bayonet for the m/45 smg? That one is a looooong one XS
I haven't seen it. I don't know why the M96 and bayonets appeared in Oz in such numbers. I had about 5 M96 rifles, including a couple of rare ones and quite a few bayonets. They were standard fare for pig hunters and maybe still are. Australians have always had a thing for bayonets. I think the last bayonet charge was in Vietnam. Could be wrong. Mount Tumbledown involved bayonets but it wasn't a classic bayonet charge.
brad mcpherson I have an M96 , but no bayonette for it . I've seen a couple around here in South Carolina at pawn and gun shops . I might buy one now . The couple of German M98 type bayonettes I've owned made for poor bush knives in my opinion, they don't take a good cutting edge . Swedes make excellent ordnance steel , so if their bayonettes are made of the same quality steel as their rifles I must have one . I've never owned a British bayonette.
Matt now you have to make a video about "fighting with entrenching tools" i.e. shovels. The sharpened hand shovel, as you mentioned, was the weapon of choice for many WWI soldiers. I know of at least one member of the 82nd Airborne soldier during the first Gulf War, who told me his whole platoon sharpened their shovels. Sharpened shovels are also mentioned in "All Quiet on the Western Front". Back to bayonets, I have read that U.S. soldiers in WWI started to shorten their bayonets as soon as they got into serious trench warfare.
I love WWI bayonets, especially the German S98/05 and German and British sword bayonets. I was hoping for an episode about them. I'd love for you to look at fighting knives from WWI like the French Couteau Poignard Mle. 1916 and various German fighting knives.
Now I can't stop imagining an officer giving the command to fix bayonets to a whole company of soldiers who converted them to knives by cutting the pommel and the ring-part off.
It wasn't a problem. Experienced trench fighters had a bayonet for the rifle and one for fighting they took off a corpse, then modified. Later on, i.e., WW2 you saw soldiers with a fighting knife and sub machine gun. One for shooting, one for fun.
Is that a real expression in the UK? I was wondering about that.. Never heard it here in Canada, same city as Skalligram and thinking of joining the Hema school.
Scolargladitoria love your videos man! Since you talk about bayonets during WW1, can you also talk about spade weapons during WW1, I'm interested in those.
Good stuff👍 During WW2 the us started cutting down the long M1905 bayonet blade for the M1 Garand to 10 inches to match the new shorter M1 bayonet. The M1 was used the last couple years of WW2 through the Korean war. You can tell which ones were manufactured with the 10-in blade and which ones were cut down by looking at where the fuller starts. The cut down version has the fuller all the way up to the tip.
Interestingly, the original P1903 bayonet for the SMLE was a fair bit shorter, with a 12" blade. Like a lot of other complaints about the SMLE, the 19th century holdovers led to the P1907 having the 17" blade, to help fend off cavalry in melee, which didn't exactly turn out to be a big consideration in WW1.
I remember a scene in "All Quiet on the Western Front" where the more experienced soldiers recommended ignoring the bayonet and using a spade if it comes to hand to hand combat. You mentioned that briefly in this video, but I would like you to do one expanding on the use of a spade as a weapon in trench warfare.
Entrenching tool (shovel) was and still is an exceptional close in fighting weapon commonly found and used by soldiers the world over. It has many uses as a utility tool and is exceptionally well weighted as a clubbing and slashing weapon.
The model of 1903 is the most awesome. I just restored one (a Wilkinson) along with cobbling together an appropriate closely fitted scabbard. The scabbard was a "bear". I had to make 3 attempts with 3 different kinds of leather including an original surplus blank which failed. Once I got the leather to fit the locket and chape, I worked the blade in and out a hundred odd times before the bayonet would slide in and out easily. I recreated the bayonet frog too in better form than the painted replicas from India. The locket is a teardrop stud, but from a pattern of 1907 set, so longer and not perfectly true to the 1903 bayonet. It was the best I could do. I searched for years for someone with an original 1903 locket kicking around in their junk drawer, without success. The locket and chape staples were a huge hassle to get in and then scratched the blade. I used glue instead which will suffice until I can anchor the staples into the leather at diagonal angles that avoid the beautiful, double-eded, diamond cross-section blade.
In example, during WWI some elite italian army corp (Yes, we had and still have, some may disagree) called "Arditi" (The Daring Ones or Daredevils, as they used swim across rivers, crawl on minefields and under barbed wires to jump in trenches with just a revolver, a hand grenade and a bayonet/knife) used kind a sardinian style reszolda with narrower point to pierce higher and thicker austrian uniform collar.
I took my basic training for the uUS Army In 1972 . Included with our training was several days of training in bayonet fighting. Our training sergeant claimed he preferred using his entrenching tool (shovel) to a bayonet. This was at the near end of Viet Nam. Somebody still thought we needed to know then.
Hey scholagladiatoria on the subject of bayonets i was reading an interesting story about bayonets used by the Japanese army in WW1 and WW2. Japanese Arisaka bayonets are famously very large and almost looked like mini katanas. Apparently that was done for a reason. See the Japanese army, like most armies at the time consisted of mostly draftees who were of peasant stock. In Japanese culture, a sword is a very high status symbol however only people of samurai heritage were often allowed to carry swords. So to boost morale, the Japanese military made their bayonets more sword shaped rather than dagger shaped so that the soldiers could have more or less a surrogate sword. Hope you found this interesting and keep up making good videos.
556deltawolf That's absolutely not true. The samurai class was abolished in the Meiji Revolution and nobody could carry a sword for civil use. In word war 2 or in the Russo-Japanese war the katana was an officer sword just like european armies would do. And because of the suppling problems they faced due to their imperialist and island nation nature they had to rely in an army of few but higly skilled soldiers. This unskilled draftee scenario only happened during the end of the war when loss of their elite troops and manpower overall together with desperation forced them to use the mainland soldiers (who were unskilled recruits just out of highschool).
Leandro Ribeiro Calling the Japanese army "elite" at the start of the war is a massive exaggeration. They were trained reasonably well but no more than any western nation. Elite compared to Chinese troops or Russian conscripts perhaps, but against Australians and British - who they fought initially - and Americans - later on - they were very average soldiers.
In what way does the Type 30 bayonet (introduced in the 30th year of Emperor Meiji's reign or 1897) look like a mini katana? The general shape of the blade and grip are essentially the same as smle bayonets. Hell, they even have quillions, what are you talking about? The Type 30 is pretty generic as far as early 20th/late 19th century bayonets go, the design has little to nothing to do with what you are talking about. In addition, this sword business is probably a bit overhyped. Basically every country with a sizable military sent officers to embed themselves with the armies participating in the Russo Japanese War. An American officer observing the fanatic care that Japanese soldiers dedicated to their rifles commented on it to the company captain, who responded that "In former times, the Japanese warrior looked upon his sword as part of his spirit, and that now they tried to impress the soldier with the same idea about his RIFLE". The quote is from "Reports of Military Observers attached to The Armies in Manchuria during he Russo-Japanese War. Part V" Pg 101.
Matt, make a video about WW1 clubs and other exotic weapons like flails. I never understood why the soldiers went to the trouble of making such elaborate weapons. I always saw percussive weapons as anti-armor weapons but although WW1 soldiers had heavy clothing in some situations I don't see why somebody would need a flail. I'd probably stick to a small knife like the FS or the Mark I american knife or just a bowie knife.
Tezcax Probably goes back to the instinctual tendency of most people to abandon finer techniques when under stress, reverting to simpler methods. Matt's done some videos about anecdotes on trained fighters versus untrained, where he goes into some detail about this phenomenon and its benefits and drawbacks.
People made armor for trench raids. I have seen pictures of scale and maile suits from this period. I think Matt does not allow links in his comments, but you could google it up just as quickly as I could. Apart from that, it's not easy to go through thick clothing, just as Matt said. Test it yourself. Pork legs are delicious, even after being stabbed and "tenderized". ;-) Just remember that people used to wear several layers of fairly thick wool clothing. That's a bit tougher than what we wear nowadays, simply because their outdoor activity did not amount to a short walk to and from a car.
I think the helmet part makes a lot of sense and I didn't think about it. Clothing is a fair point if you're talking about cutting but the kind of clothing I see on WW1 pictures doesn't lead me to believe that it would be resistant to stabs at least not from a knife of a similar size to the clubs I've seen used. I'd personally go for a knife or other pointy object(I've seen these hand forged spikes used in the trenches) and get a revolver or pistol like the 1911 ASAP, considering I didn't have access to SMGs or shotguns.
+Tezcax - Stabbing through clothing isn't as easy as it may seem. Cloth wraps itself around the tip. If the tip is very narrow it will slip through and pull the fibers apart. If the tip is very sharp, preferably double-edged, it will cut the fibers. Bayonet tips are neither of those. Just think about it - it's fairly common to identify the attacker who killed someone with a knife by the cuts on his hand. They often hurt themselves, because they lose grip and their hand slips on the edge. If stabbing didn't require effort, that would never happen. It does. I've seen a lot of it during butchery.
Blades get stuck in clothing and meat,......a club will always allow for a faster follow up swing. Also, as Caramel pointed out, hits to the head with a mace are more likely to immediately take you out of the fight than a stab wound which could take many, many seconds to bleed out.
Matt, I'm surprised as a Military Saber guy you don't mention Hutton's section in Cold Steel on "The Short Sword-Bayonet or Dagger" (partly based on Marozzo's Bolognese Dagger techniques). I know he's before WW1 but great treatise on exactly this weapon. We're using it now as an intro & supplement to Marozzo's Dagger techniques. Do you know if Hutton's dagger techniques were taught more widely in the British military of the time and what do you think of the techniques he presents?
Some time ago I saw a ww1 german bayonet in a flea market, it had no ring, it was shortened and the handle had a name carved. Obviously it was cheaper than a normal one, but in my opinion a piece like that is more interesting.
Interesting video! One thing I think maybe you overlooked was the weight savings. The foot soldier had to hump those long bayonets/short swords everywhere. Subscribed!
I remember reading that the Australian Light Horse were ordered to "draw bayonets and charge" (basically using them as a sword substitute) at Beersheba, against the Turkish gun positions.
The Bowe style bayonet (in the U.S.) did not happen till 1989 with the M9 bayonet. WWII U.S. bayonets are 10 inch blade pointed with a false edge back. WWI U.S. bayonets are the design just 18 inche blade. All bayonets for the U.S. after the Korean war are of the same design as M1 carbine bayonet About 7 inch blade pointed with false edge on the back. Handles and barrel ring very for rifle(M1, M2, M14, M16, and M16a1) . The M16a2 got the M9.
I carried two types of knives one was the infamous K-bar but the other was an old WW2 Garand bayonet the 1942 with a 9 inch blade. It was hard to sharpen but could be, a good stabber and it's main strength was it was solid, it made a good chopper. I used it to open coconuts when everyone else's knives failed. The answer is, yes, though not perfect, not balanced for the job beating an enemy about the head and shoulders with a hunk of flat edged steel would kill and wound them even unsharpened. Beats nothing.
Matt, have you ever talked about stopping power in weapons? Especially blunt weapons. Marc MacYoung notes that a hammer has much more stopping power than a knife and that seems to hold a lot of relevance in trenchfighting.
I have a World War 2 Mauser K98 bayonet cut down as a boot knife. Its got around a 6-7 inch blade. Probably a good carving and multi purpose knife also.
Overpenetration basically means "more penetatration than you need". Imagine sticking that long bayonet all the way though someone, down to the hilt. After you've stuck in half the blade, it will start sticking out on the other side. There will be a hole all the way through, and the remaining half won't really do any extra damage. However, it will take a little bit more time to get it out, and those precious moments may be the difference between getting untangled and managing to defend yourself from his friend, or getting your head smashed in by a club. Also, if your victim moves or falls over, there's a significantly greater chance that your weapon will be wrenched out of your hand, disarming you. Which you won't want, obviously, if his mates are around and about to attack you.
It's indeed Lebel as in "le bel", not "leebel". The later versions of the lebel bayonets come standard without a quillon, but I think it was mainly done to save material.
(Commented before I finished watching this video.) Most bayonets from what I heard do not always have a sharpened enough blade edge like a typical knife. They are made dull on purpose. They are usually made for thrusting/stabbing. Also, there are a LOT of bayonets that do not have a "knife shape" format. Some are literally just a just a piece of metal shaped like a rod, with the tip ending in a point. This was quite popular by a lot of places I think nearing the end of 19th and beginning of 20th century. There were some using the blade/knife format that did sharpened them sharp. However I think the actual answer is," Some you could use them as a combat knife, but not all of them." I think it was also not unlikely for a person to realize his blade bayonet might not suited the role as a combat knife, but had enough he could get by until obtaining a actual fighting knife. Also some bayonets might have been well suited for it. I think modern bayonets are this way. However, all bayonets in general? I think the shortest answer is, "It depends on the type of bayonet."
You are 100% correct if you look on ebay there are tons of shortened altered bayonets I carred a m-1 gurand bayonet that I ground a bowie knife tip on it and removed the latch.I carried it along with a kabar in the gulf war. It was very sturdy and I liked it a bit more because it was longer at 9-1/2'' also the ka-bar got stolen!
In Argentina, during the 19th century, the gauchos (local cowboys, more or less) would take long bayonets as the one you are showing and turn them into fighting knives. They were called "facones caroneros" and were used as short swords, in fact, a fencing style was developed arround these weapons, inspired by the rapier and cloak style. It was facon and poncho.
I've got the German bayonet called "the butcher knife" and is quite comfortable to my hand. I use this one as a machete and for gardening works and it is the really useful thing.
Looking forward to your take about ww1 trench knifes / trench weapons. WW2 weapons might also be quiete interesting e.g. SOE knifes&daggers and how useful they really were. Keep up the good work.
When they went to the Enfield Rifle # 4 in WW2 the bayonet became a round spike 8" long with no handle whatsoever, just a 1" or so square block with the socket for the barrel. The Russian bayonet from both world wars is also a spike with no handle and a chisel point, they were intended to be left on the rifles at all times. One assumes the soldiers were issued or equipped themselves with knives for camp work if nothing else. What would you say is less than ideal about a Ka-Bar as a fighting knife?
I would have thought that mentioning the Australian Light Horse charge on Bersheeba (please pardon my spelling of the town) where the Light Horsemen did a successful "cavalry charge" but used their bayonets as swords and took the town would rate as an interesting addition to this video.
James Morgan Ayers, an ex SF guy from the US says that knives were an important part of his special forces training, late 60s and wrote his book called the Tactical Knife about his and others experiences. He says 7 to 10 is most useful if you can carry it.
His description of fighting in trenches made me come to this hypothesis. (Please note, I am no expert on the subject, so correct me if I'm wrong.) Based on his description of fighting in trenches, I would imagine that strength would be pretty important. Is this part of the reason why Canadian troops proved to be so effective during the First World War? If I'm not mistaken, at the time of the first world war, the majority of Canadians lived in rural areas such as farming villages. This would mean that a lot of the Canadian soldiers would be "farm boys" who's life had involved more physically strenuous work than "city boys," and this work could have built up their physical strength. Is this a valid hypothesis?
I think that’s correct. I think, also, culturally speaking, they were much less far removed from their ancestors who tamed the frontier, so they were generally bred to be tougher.
Good hypothesis, a lot more logging being done in Canada than Europe so you likely had many soldiers already familiar with using axes, making them more effective with spades.
The Ka Bar is a fine knife. This mattered a lot to me 30 years ago, but they were cheap enough to afford. And tough enough to actually use in the field.
Recently was gifted a mint (used) S98/05 n/A and it is quite robust. Feels very substantial and would be terrifying in a fight. You could slash as well as simply stab.
Canadian Ross bayonets were actually arsenal converted to fighting knives after the rifles were withdrawn from service. The blades were reprofiled, ring removed , and latch removed and filled. The one I have is actually quite good as a combat weapon. I believe the work was done by Wilkinson Sword for the Canadian government.
As a fighting knife the best bayonet I have is a Swiss Stgw 57, a sensible length, good grip, and very stabby. The SA80 bayonet is very similar to many of the old Eastern bloc ones of the Cold War era, basically utility knives with extra functions when used with their scabbard, the ability to be locked on the end of a rifle and stuck in the enemy must have come pretty low down on the list of priorities. Almost any bayonet including the SA80, be they short or long, old or new, is still better than the Glock knife.
When I was a kid the local skinheads used to carry bayonets. I don't know if they were good fighting knives or not but they used to scare the shit out of me!
I don't think I am going to cut down my 15" dagger anytime soon. If a very large knife was good enough for a Swiss Landsknechts in a chaotic and tight melee, then it is good enough for me too. I imagine that WWI trench troops (even though much better than me) were amateurs in CQB compared to the Swiss mercenaries of old.
I definitely agree that at above 10 inches it does get a bit unwieldy and it does take longer to unsheathe which can definitely be a negative in an unexpected close quarters 1v1 duel ;)
Before you get hurt. I am third generation MARINE. The Ka-bar was designed to be general uses knife. That is why the MARINE CORPS had the M3 trench knife(what my Father used and liked, 1st Mar Div WWII). The truth be told the Ka-bar is really not a great combat weapon. The Ka-bar name came for a backup manufacture. Camllus was the original manufacturer and the contact holder (and the best) till they closed.
To quote Matt on the previous version of this video: Me: Ah, the 1907, the only antique blade I own. How do you think it stands up as a short sword, similar to a messer? Too heavy? Wrong blade geometry? Matt: It's a poor chopper due to the edge geometry, though amusingly if properly sharpened and the edge ground down it would not be that unlike a wakizachi!
I own a Steyr Mannlicher M1895 bayonet converted into a fighting knife of sorts, the ring to attach it the muzzle has been removed cleanly. The blade, I believe, has not been shortened or otherwise modified.
A problem (at least for Americans) is that in WWI the bayonets were intentionally issued with dull blades (to both prevent training injuries and also to minimize slash injuries in quarrels in peace time barracks) and soldiers were often punished (in barracks environments if caught sharpening the edge). So they found themselves in the trenches with dull edged bayonets. I note that my Martini Henry sword (Wilkinson) bayonet is also laughably dull edged, so this was a mind set found in more than one army. I don't know when the peacenk mind set snuck in, but by contrast my Snider sword bayonet appears to have a factory edge, and a D guard for the hand too. Clearly someone was thinking melee. LoL Noting also the French Foreign Legion for a long time used cut down US 1917 bayonets with a really steep point and punishment was for those who did not sharpen it and keep it sharp. So mindsets of the folks issuing the knife or bayonet have a real impact on how useful it would be in a fight.
The curved quillon on bayonets were not for any fighting techniques but simply as an aid to stacking arms. You have probably seen photos or historical movies where rifles are standing up in sort of tripods of at least three rifles when in camp or when paused on a march. This keeps the working parts out of the mud and keeps people from tripping over them.
Xandros999 Many rifles, for example the M1 Garand have a "stacking link" on the front barrel band that allows them to be stacked without a bayonet being attached. The M16 has no stacking link but there is a procedure to use the sling to stack arms.
On the SMLE though, it already has a dedicated stacking swivel right behind the bayonet lug. So at least in the SMLE's case, I think it's much more likely that the quillion was for parrying an enemy bayonet thrust... regardless of how good an idea it was or wasn't to fence with a bayonet in the first place.
Mark Kelly never used a sling to stack them or set them up in a tripod. We just either just stacked them or put them as a tripod in the Army. I'm sure there are different ways but we didn't use a sling. Edit: for more clarity
spykez spykez seeing as no one else has answered, I have a Spanish long bayonet that is just a few inches shorter and it weighs 1 pound 2 ounces without the scabbard, so i would guess it's somewhere in the 1 1/2 pound range.
In open ground a long blade is handy, in CQC in tight area a 7 1/2" is very good. Easy to change grip and you don't need alot of area tko draw or manoeuvre the knife.
When I hold my SMLE bayonet, I find it way too narrow for my larger hands. Surprised this didn't get a mention. It feels more comfortable if I hold it with my index finger above the guard.
That explaination is understandable and consistant to the material I have read or seen in the last years to that topic, but it was the first time, somebody with fighting-/fencing experience put some knowledge behind it for further understanding. *thumbs up* But there is a question in my head, that may could get figured out a bit. I do some fencing mainly with the Anderthalbhänder after the Book of Joachim Meyer and also had some exercises with the long knive (Langes Messer) and after that looked on my few bajonetts and asked myself, if you could use a long bajonett in the way of a long knive. The shape is similar and you could do most technics with it. (I did some choreography fighting training once with it agains a onehand sword and it did the job) Thanks to the pandemic situation, we had no chance to test it further yet. The grip is a bit smaller in comparison to a long knife but ok. If you apply long knife technics on bajonett fight, wouldn't that work? (Except very close combat, where you fight with enhanced fists.)
There is actually a good amount of documentation from the 18th, and early 19th centuries, suggesting that socket bayonets were indeed used independently from the musket, as a hand weapon.
Hey Matt! Can you make a video about double-bladed swords in fantasy and science fiction someday? For example there is Darth Maul's double-bladed lightsaber, which doesn't really have any historical counterpart I know of. I've found only one exception, the haladie, but it's a dagger, not a sword. I think the reason behind the lack of such weapons in history is that they're probably impractical to use. But why are they? I would like to hear your opinion about this, I hope you will find this an interesting topic to discuss. Keep up the good work!
I remember having around in my grandma's house an folding bayonet, looking at some images it could have been an Italian Carcano mod 1938. I always wandered what was the reason for that design, any insight? BTW, I have no idea where it is now.
scholagladiatoria, in 1907, when your SMLE bayonet was introduced, there was little or no understanding of the likely nature of the fighting that was to take place in Western Europe in WW 1. Your bayonet was designed primarily for two different types of engagement; one involving infantry and the other cavalry. It was the second of the two types of engagement that necessitated the use of a relatively long blade; i.e. to allow an infantryman to defend himself against a mounted enemy. Once cavalry were no longer viable on the battlefield, the length of the bayonet blade could be adjusted accordingly, to the requirements of pure infantry on infantry engagements.
A true WW1 trench knife is a nasty thing to behold. I saw one at the Prague WW2 warmuseum. Of course most troops used WW1 stuff at the start of WW2. A trench knife looks like a specialized penetrator. Thing and extremely sharp, more a very sharp long spike than a knife. Of course it has a handguard but that's more to keep it from being wrestled from you. Very good against thick cloathing in extremely confined quarters where one would normally fight with fists (if one did not have a trench knife).
The trend towards shorter bayonets had more to do with minimizing the reduction in shooting accuracy, consistency, frequency, ease and effort of operation (i.e. overall performance, effectiveness, and lethality) caused by shooting with a bayonet-fixed rifle vs without. The rifle is a precision tool/weapon; balance and weight are fundamental parameters. As a general rule, the greater the degree of change, the greater the detrimental effect. A bayonet-fixed rifle is heavier, both overall, and specifically at the muzzle i.e. the far end of the barrel. Both of the above change the balance of the rifle, making it more muzzle-heavy, thus more prone to muzzle-dipping i.e. pointing down. Most soldiers shoot less accurately, consistently, and frequently with a bayonet-fixed rifle; obv. moreso the longer/heavier the bayonet. All things being equal, shorter bayonets are lighter & less bulky; lighter weapons are better weapons (w/ some caveats) and the less weight and bulk grunts have to lug around, the better.
Great video Matt, have you thought about linking up with the great war TH-cam series? I think you could make some good collaborative episodes. Keep up the good work
I don't know if the British did this but the Australians often cut the socket ring off & squashed the groove when they sold the bayonets to the civilian market.
I would like to see a bayonet with a half leaf shape. The straight edge could be thick or reinforced with a bar and have the lug to attach to the rifle. The other edge would curve outwards in the middle but come to a fine point at the tip. It could be used for both thrusting and cutting.
As a matter of fact, the weapon, for which the italian trench knife class I taught at FightCamp was intended, is a shortened Vetterli-Vitali bayonet, issued as fighting knife, to the Arditi.
I read "All Quit on the Western Front". The favorite German tool from trench fighting in the book was to use their short handled shovels as battle axes. Seemed to work pretty well. The people hit didn't seem to complain much.
The Americans took it one step further and honed their entrenchment tools to a razor sharp edge. It was a much more useful tool in trench combat compared to a Springfield with an M17/18 bayonet affixed.
@@RockandrollNegro Everyone did that in both world wars
I have an entrenching tool or two (I camp with them) & I can see it, I've used one to cut roots, clear brush, & hammer in pegs before now, I'd hate to get hit with one.
@@NM-wd7kx same the one i use the most is swiss made from 1940 and from what i can tell its basically the same design as the german ww1 e tools. Just finished putting an edge on it and honestly i can see why it was used like a battle axe its weighty, strong, easyish to maneuver especially with two hands, and a pretty hard chopper. Not saying its the best option but if i had to fight someone with a knife or smth id probably consider this before a knife or club
"Longer is always better"
-Matt Easton, 2017
That's what she said!
varanid9 ah mother Russia I see
pro trick: watch series on kaldroStream. I've been using it for watching a lot of movies recently.
@Kole Melvin Yup, been watching on kaldrostream for since november myself :D
@Kole Melvin Yea, have been watching on kaldroStream for years myself :D
Speaking of wanting a long rifle for bayonet use:
In WW2, the Japanese rifle, the Type 38 Arisaka, when combined with its bayonet, is longer than the average Japanese soldier was. The average Japanese soldier was approximately 5 foot 2, a type 38 with its bayonet attached is 5 foot 5.
The Japanese bayonets were too hard and too hard. The hooks on American bayonets were used to break the Japanese bayonets.
@@devlieg72 maybe in some patriotic fanfic
Xybetrion I’ve seen illustrations from bayonet drill instruction manuals of how to use the hook to snare the blade of an enemy attacking with a sword or rifle with bayonet, so he’s not *entirely* wrong. I doubt it could actually *break* an enemy’s bayonet, but it could, in theory, be used to disarm an opponent. If I’m remembering correctly, the technique was something like, “thrust forward to meet the enemy’s bayonet with your own, while attempting to catch his blade with your bayonet hook. Then, quickly reverse your rifle, dragging the enemy towards you and directing his rifle to the side. Follow up by striking him with the butt of your rifle, knocking him to the ground to be finished off.”
Regardless of how useful such a technique would actually be, I can imagine that having that hook as part of the hand guard would come in handy; if for no other reason than giving a soldier more leverage when pulling their bayonet out of a body when using it as a fighting knife.
@@D990990990 it happening at least a couple of times actually sounds plausible to me. We've all seen examples of how crude Japanese manufacturing got at the end of the war and the steel that had to be used wasnt always the best. All it takes is a bayonet being made of shoddy steel or a heat treat that didnt take to make it a possibility. No way it was common though
devlieg72 American service rifles don’t have bayonets with hooks on them. The main battle rifles that the U.S. brought into the war with Japan where the 1903 Springield and M1 Garand. Both used the m1905 bayonet which didn’t have a hook.
Matt has a very good point here. If 20th century bayonets were not intended to double as hand-held knives, they would not have been made with handles.
I thought my bayonet was broken and re tipped, but now I'm thinking it's been converted into a fighting knife.
Modern-ish russian/soviet bayonets for use with AK platform are even called "штык-нож" which translates literally as a bayonet-knife, it's basically a normal knife that can be put on a rifle
Re-published after the version uploaded earlier had the end chopped off!
Yeah, nobody wants his end to be chopped off
scholagladiatoria hmm, a video consisting largely about chopping the end off of bayonets having IT'S end chopped off? Nope. No irony there at all. ;)
That's some fancy editing.
scholagladiatoria hey I have a British yatagahn bayonet cut down to a fighting knife it's very comfortable and has some heft would be a great chopper
Would you make a movie about John Malcolm Thorpe Fleming Churchill, nicknamed, "Mad Jack" because he fought through WWII with a Sword, Bow and Bagpipes. World War Two!
When I first heard that I assumed that they meant World War One, but no he went through the second world war using these seemingly outdated weapons with the motto, “In my opinion…any officer who goes into action without his sword is improperly dressed.”
Re-posting my comment from the other video: Shovels and spades certainly weren't percussion weapons, but got sharpened all around. Particularly the Germans used them to great effect.
Re-posting my response :-) I meant shovel-handles, my mistake. I was thinking of the tool handles that were frequently used as maces.
That's certainly true. In particular the British 1908 pattern Mk1 entrenching tool stands out, because the handle had a metal end cap. So you didn't even have to change much to get a very effective mace.
"Entrenching tool" (Na, mate, call a spade a spade!)
@spykez spykez It's not a spade. It's a handle (with the mentioned metal end cap) with a separate pick-axe/shovel combination thing for the tool head.
I wonder if Germans (during both WW I & WW II) ever used their stick grenades as improvised clubs.
indeed they mostly are 5-6 to 9 inches and very rarely more... oh, you're talking about knives. Gotcha.
*slow clap*
It's because they didn't want over-penetration
Well, at least it wasn't a long sword. You could really hurt someone with that.
There's a reason for the length to be 12-17cm on average, and not a whole metre long. It's because that's just the best size for it. Overpenetration is a very real (and painful) thing, and a shorter size guarantees durable performance and ease of handling. Yes, Rapiers were insane weapons, but the "make it longer!" slippery slope didn't take long to get people in the arse and wishing for a shorter length. Smallswords were not a "devolution", it's about context.
It was a dick joke Trappy
The cutting off of the barrel ring was often done by armourers when decomisioning a bayonet - especially if it was going back to a soldier as a general use knife .
Very popular with Australians. Used on horseback at Beersheba in 1917. After both wars SMLE bayonets were the Australian civilian choice of general purpose hunting knife for generations. Still are and are still often found in garage sales and your grandfather's shed. Loads of them still in service and still available for sale. The Carl Gustav M96 bayonet appeared in Oz in large numbers and is also still used as a bush knife. I have three of them, two still in original grease and in perfect unused condition. If there is a national knife of Australia, it would be either of these bayonets.
brad mcpherson I have an m/96 Swedish mauser bayonet or two too, but then again, I'm Swedish so it's not as odd ;)
Have you seen the Swedish bayonet for the m/45 smg?
That one is a looooong one XS
As long as you can show an approved purpose, you can have a fork.
I haven't seen it. I don't know why the M96 and bayonets appeared in Oz in such numbers. I had about 5 M96 rifles, including a couple of rare ones and quite a few bayonets. They were standard fare for pig hunters and maybe still are. Australians have always had a thing for bayonets. I think the last bayonet charge was in Vietnam. Could be wrong. Mount Tumbledown involved bayonets but it wasn't a classic bayonet charge.
brad mcpherson I have an M96 , but no bayonette for it . I've seen a couple around here in South Carolina at pawn and gun shops . I might buy one now . The couple of German M98 type bayonettes I've owned made for poor bush knives in my opinion, they don't take a good cutting edge . Swedes make excellent ordnance steel , so if their bayonettes are made of the same quality steel as their rifles I must have one . I've never owned a British bayonette.
brad mcpherson I
Matt now you have to make a video about "fighting with entrenching tools" i.e. shovels. The sharpened hand shovel, as you mentioned, was the weapon of choice for many WWI soldiers. I know of at least one member of the 82nd Airborne soldier during the first Gulf War, who told me his whole platoon sharpened their shovels. Sharpened shovels are also mentioned in "All Quiet on the Western Front".
Back to bayonets, I have read that U.S. soldiers in WWI started to shorten their bayonets as soon as they got into serious trench warfare.
The British army and the French army taught the American army in ww1 how to fight trench warfare
@@nickjohnson710 the US has already seen the beginnings of trench warfare during the civil war.
I love WWI bayonets, especially the German S98/05 and German and British sword bayonets. I was hoping for an episode about them. I'd love for you to look at fighting knives from WWI like the French Couteau Poignard Mle. 1916 and various German fighting knives.
Now I can't stop imagining an officer giving the command to fix bayonets to a whole company of soldiers who converted them to knives by cutting the pommel and the ring-part off.
TlsGrz After a few years of trench warfare there was plenty of spare equipment lying around who's owners had no more need for it.
It wasn't a problem. Experienced trench fighters had a bayonet for the rifle and one for fighting they took off a corpse, then modified. Later on, i.e., WW2 you saw soldiers with a fighting knife and sub machine gun. One for shooting, one for fun.
TlsGrz sometimes soldiersä died and left a bayonet behind...lots of scrap in war too.
......they would simply duct tape a spork in place for effect.
Camanding officer says ready bayonates! Sorry sir I broke it. Lol
"Doesn't really cut the Mustard".... Too soon Matt, Too soon. 😔
Is that a real expression in the UK? I was wondering about that.. Never heard it here in Canada, same city as Skalligram and thinking of joining the Hema school.
@@Skelstoolbox yeah.
Scolargladitoria love your videos man! Since you talk about bayonets during WW1, can you also talk about spade weapons during WW1, I'm interested in those.
Damn, Superdry bought Matt Easton?
00Trademark00 and we thought he was a free man!
Hey Matt, can you do a movie fight review on _The Last Samurai_ ? Specifically the battle in the fog, and the final battle.
Yeah that would be really nice. I second that.
Good stuff👍 During WW2 the us started cutting down the long M1905 bayonet blade for the M1 Garand to 10 inches to match the new shorter M1 bayonet. The M1 was used the last couple years of WW2 through the Korean war. You can tell which ones were manufactured with the 10-in blade and which ones were cut down by looking at where the fuller starts. The cut down version has the fuller all the way up to the tip.
Interestingly, the original P1903 bayonet for the SMLE was a fair bit shorter, with a 12" blade. Like a lot of other complaints about the SMLE, the 19th century holdovers led to the P1907 having the 17" blade, to help fend off cavalry in melee, which didn't exactly turn out to be a big consideration in WW1.
Thanks Matt, as informative as ever! We learn just as much from your asides as the main focal point of your videos!
I remember a scene in "All Quiet on the Western Front" where the more experienced soldiers recommended ignoring the bayonet and using a spade if it comes to hand to hand combat. You mentioned that briefly in this video, but I would like you to do one expanding on the use of a spade as a weapon in trench warfare.
Entrenching tool (shovel) was and still is an exceptional close in fighting weapon commonly found and used by soldiers the world over. It has many uses as a utility tool and is exceptionally well weighted as a clubbing and slashing weapon.
My dad and his mates wore the shovel blade over their hearts as body armour, a truly a multi purpose tool.
The model of 1903 is the most awesome. I just restored one (a Wilkinson) along with cobbling together an appropriate closely fitted scabbard. The scabbard was a "bear". I had to make 3 attempts with 3 different kinds of leather including an original surplus blank which failed. Once I got the leather to fit the locket and chape, I worked the blade in and out a hundred odd times before the bayonet would slide in and out easily. I recreated the bayonet frog too in better form than the painted replicas from India. The locket is a teardrop stud, but from a pattern of 1907 set, so longer and not perfectly true to the 1903 bayonet. It was the best I could do. I searched for years for someone with an original 1903 locket kicking around in their junk drawer, without success. The locket and chape staples were a huge hassle to get in and then scratched the blade. I used glue instead which will suffice until I can anchor the staples into the leather at diagonal angles that avoid the beautiful, double-eded, diamond cross-section blade.
This is perfect timing! I have been thinking of picking up this exact blade with the Enfield planned as a future purchase. Thanks for the great vid
In example, during WWI some elite italian army corp (Yes, we had and still have, some may disagree) called "Arditi" (The Daring Ones or Daredevils, as they used swim across rivers, crawl on minefields and under barbed wires to jump in trenches with just a revolver, a hand grenade and a bayonet/knife) used kind a sardinian style reszolda with narrower point to pierce higher and thicker austrian uniform collar.
I took my basic training for the uUS Army In 1972 . Included with our training was several days of training in bayonet fighting. Our training sergeant claimed he preferred using his entrenching tool (shovel) to a bayonet. This was at the near end of Viet Nam. Somebody still thought we needed to know then.
Hey scholagladiatoria on the subject of bayonets i was reading an interesting story about bayonets used by the Japanese army in WW1 and WW2. Japanese Arisaka bayonets are famously very large and almost looked like mini katanas. Apparently that was done for a reason. See the Japanese army, like most armies at the time consisted of mostly draftees who were of peasant stock. In Japanese culture, a sword is a very high status symbol however only people of samurai heritage were often allowed to carry swords. So to boost morale, the Japanese military made their bayonets more sword shaped rather than dagger shaped so that the soldiers could have more or less a surrogate sword. Hope you found this interesting and keep up making good videos.
The Arisaka bayonet (Type 30) did not look like a mini-katana. It looked very much like the one here, except with a shorter blade.
Well yeah saying it was a mini katana was pushing it but the Japanese bayonets were very sword like.
556deltawolf That's absolutely not true. The samurai class was abolished in the Meiji Revolution and nobody could carry a sword for civil use. In word war 2 or in the Russo-Japanese war the katana was an officer sword just like european armies would do. And because of the suppling problems they faced due to their imperialist and island nation nature they had to rely in an army of few but higly skilled soldiers. This unskilled draftee scenario only happened during the end of the war when loss of their elite troops and manpower overall together with desperation forced them to use the mainland soldiers (who were unskilled recruits just out of highschool).
Leandro Ribeiro
Calling the Japanese army "elite" at the start of the war is a massive exaggeration. They were trained reasonably well but no more than any western nation. Elite compared to Chinese troops or Russian conscripts perhaps, but against Australians and British - who they fought initially - and Americans - later on - they were very average soldiers.
In what way does the Type 30 bayonet (introduced in the 30th year of Emperor Meiji's reign or 1897) look like a mini katana? The general shape of the blade and grip are essentially the same as smle bayonets. Hell, they even have quillions, what are you talking about? The Type 30 is pretty generic as far as early 20th/late 19th century bayonets go, the design has little to nothing to do with what you are talking about. In addition, this sword business is probably a bit overhyped. Basically every country with a sizable military sent officers to embed themselves with the armies participating in the Russo Japanese War. An American officer observing the fanatic care that Japanese soldiers dedicated to their rifles commented on it to the company captain, who responded that "In former times, the Japanese warrior looked upon his sword as part of his spirit, and that now they tried to impress the soldier with the same idea about his RIFLE". The quote is from "Reports of Military Observers attached to The Armies in Manchuria during he Russo-Japanese War. Part V" Pg 101.
you can also use it as a short sword with a shield/buckler.
This is the video i was looking for for a month. Finally finding someone talking about using bayonets as a fighting knives!
Matt, make a video about WW1 clubs and other exotic weapons like flails. I never understood why the soldiers went to the trouble of making such elaborate weapons. I always saw percussive weapons as anti-armor weapons but although WW1 soldiers had heavy clothing in some situations I don't see why somebody would need a flail. I'd probably stick to a small knife like the FS or the Mark I american knife or just a bowie knife.
Tezcax
Probably goes back to the instinctual tendency of most people to abandon finer techniques when under stress, reverting to simpler methods. Matt's done some videos about anecdotes on trained fighters versus untrained, where he goes into some detail about this phenomenon and its benefits and drawbacks.
People made armor for trench raids. I have seen pictures of scale and maile suits from this period. I think Matt does not allow links in his comments, but you could google it up just as quickly as I could.
Apart from that, it's not easy to go through thick clothing, just as Matt said. Test it yourself. Pork legs are delicious, even after being stabbed and "tenderized". ;-)
Just remember that people used to wear several layers of fairly thick wool clothing. That's a bit tougher than what we wear nowadays, simply because their outdoor activity did not amount to a short walk to and from a car.
I think the helmet part makes a lot of sense and I didn't think about it. Clothing is a fair point if you're talking about cutting but the kind of clothing I see on WW1 pictures doesn't lead me to believe that it would be resistant to stabs at least not from a knife of a similar size to the clubs I've seen used.
I'd personally go for a knife or other pointy object(I've seen these hand forged spikes used in the trenches) and get a revolver or pistol like the 1911 ASAP, considering I didn't have access to SMGs or shotguns.
+Tezcax - Stabbing through clothing isn't as easy as it may seem. Cloth wraps itself around the tip. If the tip is very narrow it will slip through and pull the fibers apart. If the tip is very sharp, preferably double-edged, it will cut the fibers.
Bayonet tips are neither of those.
Just think about it - it's fairly common to identify the attacker who killed someone with a knife by the cuts on his hand. They often hurt themselves, because they lose grip and their hand slips on the edge.
If stabbing didn't require effort, that would never happen. It does. I've seen a lot of it during butchery.
Blades get stuck in clothing and meat,......a club will always allow for a faster follow up swing. Also, as Caramel pointed out, hits to the head with a mace are more likely to immediately take you out of the fight than a stab wound which could take many, many seconds to bleed out.
This was a fascinating display of knowledge and insight. Props!
" They don't like it up em!" Corporal Jones, Dad's Army. Lol
Hey Natt, saw the new editing. Good job waking me up with it this morning
Matt, I'm surprised as a Military Saber guy you don't mention Hutton's section in Cold Steel on "The Short Sword-Bayonet or Dagger" (partly based on Marozzo's Bolognese Dagger techniques). I know he's before WW1 but great treatise on exactly this weapon. We're using it now as an intro & supplement to Marozzo's Dagger techniques. Do you know if Hutton's dagger techniques were taught more widely in the British military of the time and what do you think of the techniques he presents?
Some time ago I saw a ww1 german bayonet in a flea market, it had no ring, it was shortened and the handle had a name carved. Obviously it was cheaper than a normal one, but in my opinion a piece like that is more interesting.
Interesting video! One thing I think maybe you overlooked was the weight savings. The foot soldier had to hump those long bayonets/short swords everywhere. Subscribed!
Nice pommel joke.
14:30
Must end him rightly!
The digressions in these videos are maddening.
I remember reading that the Australian Light Horse were ordered to "draw bayonets and charge" (basically using them as a sword substitute) at Beersheba, against the Turkish gun positions.
The Bowe style bayonet (in the U.S.) did not happen till 1989 with the M9 bayonet.
WWII U.S. bayonets are 10 inch blade pointed with a false edge back.
WWI U.S. bayonets are the design just 18 inche blade.
All bayonets for the U.S. after the Korean war are of the same design as M1 carbine bayonet
About 7 inch blade pointed with false edge on the back.
Handles and barrel ring very for rifle(M1, M2, M14, M16, and M16a1) .
The M16a2 got the M9.
I carried two types of knives one was the infamous K-bar but the other was an old WW2 Garand bayonet the 1942 with a 9 inch blade.
It was hard to sharpen but could be, a good stabber and it's main strength was it was solid, it made a good chopper.
I used it to open coconuts when everyone else's knives failed.
The answer is, yes, though not perfect, not balanced for the job beating an enemy about the head and shoulders with a hunk of flat edged steel would kill and wound them even unsharpened.
Beats nothing.
I would really like to hear your take on the fairbairn sykes
I second this
The FS fighting knife is the best.
Yes, I would like a video on this subject as well.
A more iconic British dagger I cannot think of....Well, at least in the last century.
Smatchet!
I didn't mean to imply that you needed to make a new upload, but I appreciate the effort. Again, thank you for another interesting video.
Matt, have you ever talked about stopping power in weapons? Especially blunt weapons. Marc MacYoung notes that a hammer has much more stopping power than a knife and that seems to hold a lot of relevance in trenchfighting.
Xandros999, macyoung is one of the most practical sd experts around.
I have a World War 2 Mauser K98 bayonet cut down as a boot knife. Its got around a 6-7 inch blade. Probably a good carving and multi purpose knife also.
why wouldn't I overpenetration...?
Gabriel Olmedo Because it will be more difficult to pull out in time.
Mark Kelly or if victim on ground get stuck.
Overpenetration basically means "more penetatration than you need". Imagine sticking that long bayonet all the way though someone, down to the hilt. After you've stuck in half the blade, it will start sticking out on the other side. There will be a hole all the way through, and the remaining half won't really do any extra damage. However, it will take a little bit more time to get it out, and those precious moments may be the difference between getting untangled and managing to defend yourself from his friend, or getting your head smashed in by a club.
Also, if your victim moves or falls over, there's a significantly greater chance that your weapon will be wrenched out of your hand, disarming you. Which you won't want, obviously, if his mates are around and about to attack you.
This comment thread got increasingly more disturbing, depending on you keeping the original meaning in mind or not.
lol
It's indeed Lebel as in "le bel", not "leebel".
The later versions of the lebel bayonets come standard without a quillon, but I think it was mainly done to save material.
The wogs start at callus
14:43 - almost fell off my chair :D
Some divine level edits
András Csaba Horváth :D
(Commented before I finished watching this video.) Most bayonets from what I heard do not always have a sharpened enough blade edge like a typical knife. They are made dull on purpose. They are usually made for thrusting/stabbing. Also, there are a LOT of bayonets that do not have a "knife shape" format. Some are literally just a just a piece of metal shaped like a rod, with the tip ending in a point. This was quite popular by a lot of places I think nearing the end of 19th and beginning of 20th century. There were some using the blade/knife format that did sharpened them sharp. However I think the actual answer is," Some you could use them as a combat knife, but not all of them." I think it was also not unlikely for a person to realize his blade bayonet might not suited the role as a combat knife, but had enough he could get by until obtaining a actual fighting knife. Also some bayonets might have been well suited for it. I think modern bayonets are this way. However, all bayonets in general? I think the shortest answer is, "It depends on the type of bayonet."
Hi Matt
I joined the Australian army in 1978. The first thing the corporals beat in to me was bayonet fighting.
Regards from Oz
I've heard that the curved bayonet quillons were for stacking arms--to form "tripods" of rifles in the field absent rifle racks.
You are 100% correct if you look on ebay there are tons of shortened altered bayonets I carred a m-1 gurand bayonet that I ground a bowie knife tip on it and removed the latch.I carried it along with a kabar in the gulf war. It was very sturdy and I liked it a bit more because it was longer at 9-1/2'' also the ka-bar got stolen!
In Argentina, during the 19th century, the gauchos (local cowboys, more or less) would take long bayonets as the one you are showing and turn them into fighting knives. They were called "facones caroneros" and were used as short swords, in fact, a fencing style was developed arround these weapons, inspired by the rapier and cloak style. It was facon and poncho.
I've got the German bayonet called "the butcher knife" and is quite comfortable to my hand. I use this one as a machete and for gardening works and it is the really useful thing.
What I'm hearing is, rapier/sword and dagger could have had a niche use in WW1, maybe.
Looking forward to your take about ww1 trench knifes / trench weapons. WW2 weapons might also be quiete interesting e.g. SOE knifes&daggers and how useful they really were. Keep up the good work.
In the military museum in Budapest there's a ww1 officers sword which had the top third of the cut off and resharpened for trench use.
When they went to the Enfield Rifle # 4 in WW2 the bayonet became a round spike 8" long with no handle whatsoever, just a 1" or so square block with the socket for the barrel. The Russian bayonet from both world wars is also a spike with no handle and a chisel point, they were intended to be left on the rifles at all times. One assumes the soldiers were issued or equipped themselves with knives for camp work if nothing else.
What would you say is less than ideal about a Ka-Bar as a fighting knife?
where is Catt Easton?
I would have thought that mentioning the Australian Light Horse charge on Bersheeba (please pardon my spelling of the town) where the Light Horsemen did a successful "cavalry charge" but used their bayonets as swords and took the town would rate as an interesting addition to this video.
James Morgan Ayers, an ex SF guy from the US says that knives were an important part of his special forces training, late 60s and wrote his book called the Tactical Knife about his and others experiences. He says 7 to 10 is most useful if you can carry it.
His description of fighting in trenches made me come to this hypothesis. (Please note, I am no expert on the subject, so correct me if I'm wrong.) Based on his description of fighting in trenches, I would imagine that strength would be pretty important. Is this part of the reason why Canadian troops proved to be so effective during the First World War? If I'm not mistaken, at the time of the first world war, the majority of Canadians lived in rural areas such as farming villages. This would mean that a lot of the Canadian soldiers would be "farm boys" who's life had involved more physically strenuous work than "city boys," and this work could have built up their physical strength. Is this a valid hypothesis?
I think that’s correct. I think, also, culturally speaking, they were much less far removed from their ancestors who tamed the frontier, so they were generally bred to be tougher.
Good hypothesis, a lot more logging being done in Canada than Europe so you likely had many soldiers already familiar with using axes, making them more effective with spades.
The Ka Bar is a fine knife. This mattered a lot to me 30 years ago, but they were cheap enough to afford. And tough enough to actually use in the field.
Recently was gifted a mint (used) S98/05 n/A and it is quite robust. Feels very substantial and would be terrifying in a fight. You could slash as well as simply stab.
Even thin clothing seems to offer surprising amounts of protection. Skalagrim has a nice video about it.
Lovely choice of blades behind you today.
Canadian Ross bayonets were actually arsenal converted to fighting knives after the rifles were withdrawn from service. The blades were reprofiled, ring removed , and latch removed and filled. The one I have is actually quite good as a combat weapon. I believe the work was done by Wilkinson Sword for the Canadian government.
As a fighting knife the best bayonet I have is a Swiss Stgw 57, a sensible length, good grip, and very stabby.
The SA80 bayonet is very similar to many of the old Eastern bloc ones of the Cold War era, basically utility knives with extra functions when used with their scabbard, the ability to be locked on the end of a rifle and stuck in the enemy must have come pretty low down on the list of priorities.
Almost any bayonet including the SA80, be they short or long, old or new, is still better than the Glock knife.
When I was a kid the local skinheads used to carry bayonets. I don't know if they were good fighting knives or not but they used to scare the shit out of me!
RowanTree Where are you from?
It would be really bad to get stuck with one, but where I live, lots of people carry guns, so a bayonet becomes laughable by comparison.
Not good fighting knife.
And were I grew up,
Short folding knife( 3" blade) or pistols.
Of course Detroit is kind tough....
I don't think I am going to cut down my 15" dagger anytime soon. If a very large knife was good enough for a Swiss Landsknechts in a chaotic and tight melee, then it is good enough for me too. I imagine that WWI trench troops (even though much better than me) were amateurs in CQB compared to the Swiss mercenaries of old.
I definitely agree that at above 10 inches it does get a bit unwieldy and it does take longer to unsheathe which can definitely be a negative in an unexpected close quarters 1v1 duel ;)
Would like to see annotated photos of other knives while you talk about them on video
The ka-bar is just "ok"? Lol, don't dis my blade, bro!
Ka-bar is a great knife, and they make other great knives besides the version used by Marines. I have a kukri made by them.
Before you get hurt.
I am third generation MARINE.
The Ka-bar was designed to be general uses knife. That is why the MARINE CORPS had the M3 trench knife(what my Father used and liked, 1st Mar Div WWII). The truth be told the Ka-bar is really not a great combat weapon.
The Ka-bar name came for a backup manufacture. Camllus was the original manufacturer and the contact holder (and the best) till they closed.
A great question Thank you for answering
Used to have a long MLE, gave it to my nephew when he joined the Forces.
Some short messers look very similar to some bayonets. Not sure if they handle and work the same though.
To quote Matt on the previous version of this video:
Me: Ah, the 1907, the only antique blade I own. How do you think it stands up as a short sword, similar to a messer? Too heavy? Wrong blade geometry?
Matt: It's a poor chopper due to the edge geometry, though amusingly if properly sharpened and the edge ground down it would not be that unlike a wakizachi!
I own a Steyr Mannlicher M1895 bayonet converted into a fighting knife of sorts, the ring to attach it the muzzle has been removed cleanly. The blade, I believe, has not been shortened or otherwise modified.
This model of bayonet featured in the Australian Light Horse charge at Beersheba.
A problem (at least for Americans) is that in WWI the bayonets were intentionally issued with dull blades (to both prevent training injuries and also to minimize slash injuries in quarrels in peace time barracks) and soldiers were often punished (in barracks environments if caught sharpening the edge). So they found themselves in the trenches with dull edged bayonets. I note that my Martini Henry sword (Wilkinson) bayonet is also laughably dull edged, so this was a mind set found in more than one army. I don't know when the peacenk mind set snuck in, but by contrast my Snider sword bayonet appears to have a factory edge, and a D guard for the hand too. Clearly someone was thinking melee. LoL Noting also the French Foreign Legion for a long time used cut down US 1917 bayonets with a really steep point and punishment was for those who did not sharpen it and keep it sharp. So mindsets of the folks issuing the knife or bayonet have a real impact on how useful it would be in a fight.
I think you answered your own question there. Factory edge disappeared with mass mobilised soldiers.
The curved quillon on bayonets were not for any fighting techniques but simply as an aid to stacking arms. You have probably seen photos or historical movies where rifles are standing up in sort of tripods of at least three rifles when in camp or when paused on a march. This keeps the working parts out of the mud and keeps people from tripping over them.
What about rifles without bayonets? Don't they need to stand? You could also imagine the quillon would be an aid in bayonet fencing.
Xandros999 Many rifles, for example the M1 Garand have a "stacking link" on the front barrel band that allows them to be stacked without a bayonet being attached. The M16 has no stacking link but there is a procedure to use the sling to stack arms.
On the SMLE though, it already has a dedicated stacking swivel right behind the bayonet lug. So at least in the SMLE's case, I think it's much more likely that the quillion was for parrying an enemy bayonet thrust... regardless of how good an idea it was or wasn't to fence with a bayonet in the first place.
Mark Kelly Nonsense.
Mark Kelly never used a sling to stack them or set them up in a tripod. We just either just stacked them or put them as a tripod in the Army.
I'm sure there are different ways but we didn't use a sling.
Edit: for more clarity
Matt, how much does that long bayonet weigh? All I have seen are modern bayonets which are quite light.
spykez spykez seeing as no one else has answered, I have a Spanish long bayonet that is just a few inches shorter and it weighs 1 pound 2 ounces without the scabbard, so i would guess it's somewhere in the 1 1/2 pound range.
In open ground a long blade is handy, in CQC in tight area a 7 1/2" is very good. Easy to change grip and you don't need alot of area tko draw or manoeuvre the knife.
I still have a M7A1 US military bayonet. Good for sticking and that's about it!
When I hold my SMLE bayonet, I find it way too narrow for my larger hands. Surprised this didn't get a mention. It feels more comfortable if I hold it with my index finger above the guard.
That explaination is understandable and consistant to the material I have read or seen in the last years to that topic, but it was the first time, somebody with fighting-/fencing experience put some knowledge behind it for further understanding. *thumbs up*
But there is a question in my head, that may could get figured out a bit. I do some fencing mainly with the Anderthalbhänder after the Book of Joachim Meyer and also had some exercises with the long knive (Langes Messer) and after that looked on my few bajonetts and asked myself, if you could use a long bajonett in the way of a long knive. The shape is similar and you could do most technics with it. (I did some choreography fighting training once with it agains a onehand sword and it did the job)
Thanks to the pandemic situation, we had no chance to test it further yet. The grip is a bit smaller in comparison to a long knife but ok. If you apply long knife technics on bajonett fight, wouldn't that work? (Except very close combat, where you fight with enhanced fists.)
There is actually a good amount of documentation from the 18th, and early 19th centuries, suggesting that socket bayonets were indeed used independently from the musket, as a hand weapon.
Hey Matt!
Can you make a video about double-bladed swords in fantasy and science fiction someday?
For example there is Darth Maul's double-bladed lightsaber, which doesn't really have any historical counterpart I know of. I've found only one exception, the haladie, but it's a dagger, not a sword. I think the reason behind the lack of such weapons in history is that they're probably impractical to use. But why are they? I would like to hear your opinion about this, I hope you will find this an interesting topic to discuss.
Keep up the good work!
I remember having around in my grandma's house an folding bayonet, looking at some images it could have been an Italian Carcano mod 1938.
I always wandered what was the reason for that design, any insight?
BTW, I have no idea where it is now.
scholagladiatoria, in 1907, when your SMLE bayonet was introduced, there was little or no understanding of the likely nature of the fighting that was to take place in Western Europe in WW 1. Your bayonet was designed primarily for two different types of engagement; one involving infantry and the other cavalry. It was the second of the two types of engagement that necessitated the use of a relatively long blade; i.e. to allow an infantryman to defend himself against a mounted enemy. Once cavalry were no longer viable on the battlefield, the length of the bayonet blade could be adjusted accordingly, to the requirements of pure infantry on infantry engagements.
A true WW1 trench knife is a nasty thing to behold.
I saw one at the Prague WW2 warmuseum. Of course most troops used WW1 stuff at the start of WW2.
A trench knife looks like a specialized penetrator. Thing and extremely sharp, more a very sharp long spike than a knife. Of course it has a handguard but that's more to keep it from being wrestled from you.
Very good against thick cloathing in extremely confined quarters where one would normally fight with fists (if one did not have a trench knife).
The trend towards shorter bayonets had more to do with minimizing the reduction in shooting accuracy, consistency, frequency, ease and effort of operation (i.e. overall performance, effectiveness, and lethality) caused by shooting with a bayonet-fixed rifle vs without.
The rifle is a precision tool/weapon; balance and weight are fundamental parameters. As a general rule, the greater the degree of change, the greater the detrimental effect. A bayonet-fixed rifle is heavier, both overall, and specifically at the muzzle i.e. the far end of the barrel. Both of the above change the balance of the rifle, making it more muzzle-heavy, thus more prone to muzzle-dipping i.e. pointing down. Most soldiers shoot less accurately, consistently, and frequently with a bayonet-fixed rifle; obv. moreso the longer/heavier the bayonet.
All things being equal, shorter bayonets are lighter & less bulky; lighter weapons are better weapons (w/ some caveats) and the less weight and bulk grunts have to lug around, the better.
Well, I saw once combination of SMLE Bayonet blade and American Mark 1 Trench Knife handle, not sure if it was made during war or after it.
Great video Matt, have you thought about linking up with the great war TH-cam series? I think you could make some good collaborative episodes.
Keep up the good work
Was lucky in Nam. M-14 bayonet was mostly used to open c-rats
I don't know if the British did this but the Australians often cut the socket ring off & squashed the groove when they sold the bayonets to the civilian market.
I would like to see a bayonet with a half leaf shape. The straight edge could be thick or reinforced with a bar and have the lug to attach to the rifle. The other edge would curve outwards in the middle but come to a fine point at the tip. It could be used for both thrusting and cutting.
Sooo... If I understand correctly -and feel free to tell me, if I don't - bayonets aren't nets used in bays?
As a matter of fact, the weapon, for which the italian trench knife class I taught at FightCamp was intended, is a shortened Vetterli-Vitali bayonet, issued as fighting knife, to the Arditi.
Matt please also do fighting knives of WWII.