Why Does NO ONE Play These Specs? | Wrath Classic

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  • เผยแพร่เมื่อ 20 ส.ค. 2024
  • Catch up fast with the best leveling guide made by Classic's top speedrunners. I've done Loremaster of Northrend 3 times using this, can confirm works very well. Guides for Dragonflight/ Gold Farming also available! www.restedxp.c... Use Code: WILLE for 5% off!
    Class balance in Wrath Classic is a step up from TBC, and certainly better than Vanilla. But theres a few specs that almost no one seems to want to play...
    Today we look into the weird world of people who play to parse on "meme" specs.
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ความคิดเห็น • 419

  • @WillEmmo
    @WillEmmo  ปีที่แล้ว +1

    Catch up fast with the best leveling guide made by Classic's top speedrunners. I've done Loremaster of Northrend 3 times using this, can confirm works very well. Guides for Dragonflight/ Gold Farming also available! www.restedxp.com/?ref=WillE Use Code: WILLE for 5% off!

  • @Srelathon
    @Srelathon ปีที่แล้ว +82

    The Runeblade on Warcraft Logs is likely counting a lot of Blood tanks who just didn't tank for a certain fight as they weren't needed, but they didn't bother switching to a dps spec.

    • @CaptainSweatpants90
      @CaptainSweatpants90 ปีที่แล้ว +9

      I know I've been there with my DK in Naxx. Once you start running through a raid like butter, waiting around for a tank to switch 10 seconds to a DPS specc and 10 seconds back is usually not rewarded with a 20 second kill time diff. Plus, your melee are REALLY happy about keeping their Hyst.

    • @Korvmannen
      @Korvmannen ปีที่แล้ว +2

      Yep, and the utility might be worth more if the dps are hard pumping. +10% AP, Mysteria, Mark of Blood, more room for healers to dps, etc. Maybe the off-tank don't have as good dps gear/uses two tank specs (e.g. one more generic and one more specifically geared towards mitigating spell damage), or just acts as a back-up tank since wipes cost time on some fights.

    • @jackorami2557
      @jackorami2557 ปีที่แล้ว

      Ive had a couple runeblade parses as an unholy dk it seemed to happen frequently in naxx

    • @tyrnip7868
      @tyrnip7868 ปีที่แล้ว

      @@jackorami2557 from the blood dps discords the discussion seems to agree that if you manage to get aggro even for a single hit there is a solid chance your log will list you as runeblade. That may be incorrect tho because the systems so unknown

    • @bidet1515
      @bidet1515 ปีที่แล้ว

      as an unholy dk i got log once as a runeblade ( still do not know why ) , so my only parse at 99% ;)

  • @Wyrmshield
    @Wyrmshield ปีที่แล้ว +49

    Thanks for making this, I love seeing off meta specs given some shine. It's so hard to find guides for them

    • @mcsmash4905
      @mcsmash4905 ปีที่แล้ว +5

      its not hard to find guides , its hard finding a raid that is willing to take you lol

    • @TheHrdza
      @TheHrdza ปีที่แล้ว

      Dont look for guides, its lame, play the fucking game

  • @Sketchymage
    @Sketchymage ปีที่แล้ว +24

    What a bummer! I was looking forward to a video about Shaman/Rogue tanks, Smite Priests, Shockadins, and Warriors, and instead all we got were genuine specs built into the game.

    • @GeoDeathDeathGeo
      @GeoDeathDeathGeo ปีที่แล้ว

      I know caperfin released videos on shaman tanks and I have seen some Vids posted of shaman tanks doing naxx and obi sanctum

    • @moderngoblin
      @moderngoblin ปีที่แล้ว

      Shut up

  • @javierbarreto7299
    @javierbarreto7299 ปีที่แล้ว +15

    I remember "Dry Blood" (blood dps that didn't use diseases) being super good with lots of arpen, just pumping huge oblits. I guess in the classic release they killed that because the internet seems to have memory holed it

    • @flithbrin
      @flithbrin ปีที่แล้ว +4

      Only time will tell, but arp stacking didn't really become a thing until ICC, the gear just doesn't exist to make it good yet.

    • @CarpeDonnelly
      @CarpeDonnelly ปีที่แล้ว +3

      @@flithbrinby TOC/TOGC with dual blade butcher, warriors were able to explode damage with armor pen from specific sources in Ulduar and Naxx.
      Specifically Grim Toll or Mjolnir Runestone, gemming, etc

    • @GeoDeathDeathGeo
      @GeoDeathDeathGeo ปีที่แล้ว

      From what I found from talks in forum posts back in early wotlk before I think was patch 3.2.3. Might of mograine also affected obliterate. But you would still build into unholy tree instead of frost for the obi talent, which caused the rotation to apply disease for obi to eat and because obi crits were so high at the time the damage loss from reapplying diseases was insignificant.

  • @tomik6537
    @tomik6537 ปีที่แล้ว +47

    Raiding as Subtley is fantastic in ulduar. 15 second CD on an instant reposition, double cloak of shadows and cheat death. As someone who raided BFA and SL as sub (before it was good) it feels natural. Retail raiding had a lot of movement at times and shadowstep kept me doing melee dmg!

    • @tomik6537
      @tomik6537 ปีที่แล้ว

      backstab > hemmo

    • @Nworthholf
      @Nworthholf ปีที่แล้ว

      @@tomik6537 you mean that odd spec that goes down sub tree for no reason just to be a bad combat without shadowdance?

    • @Dleifocs
      @Dleifocs ปีที่แล้ว +4

      sub was really good in SOD and s1 and2 m+

    • @Hanging_Brain
      @Hanging_Brain ปีที่แล้ว +1

      Yeah sub was not a bad spec.

    • @josephteller9715
      @josephteller9715 ปีที่แล้ว +2

      @@Nworthholf the top of the trees are not always the best goal to build towards on a character. This happens with Rogue, Shaman, and some Warlock Builds... Shadowdance is useless against a boss in some fights along the way when you want a lot more single target damage.
      Crix and Simonize have had videos on just how much variation there is in some of these specs. Theory Crafting is a thing in Wotlk like it is in no other expansion.

  • @celeonnn
    @celeonnn ปีที่แล้ว +7

    good to see all these memes specs do better than arms warrior! very nice! buff feral and ret!

  • @Blackread
    @Blackread ปีที่แล้ว +35

    This is splitting hairs a bit, but you probably only want one point in go for the throat, even as BM. There's only so much focus your pet can spend, so the second point doesn't add much value.

    • @Burlehmangus
      @Burlehmangus ปีที่แล้ว +4

      Yea, I tried 2/2 gftt on target dummy in ulduar gear and pet was just focused capped 100% of the time

    • @anttihakkarainen1520
      @anttihakkarainen1520 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      Some pets use more focus than others right? Like Wind Serpents spend a ton compared to cats/wolves - But ye, no point in going 2/2 since 1 point is enough

    • @Blackread
      @Blackread ปีที่แล้ว +2

      @@anttihakkarainen1520 Could be, everyone basically uses a wolf, so I didn't really think of others.

    • @anttihakkarainen1520
      @anttihakkarainen1520 ปีที่แล้ว +2

      @@Blackread yeah, its kinda sad that there are nice and valid pets, but usually they're wrong tree such as cunning/tenacity instead of ferocity which makes them a lot worse just because they dont have similar dmg buffs as the other spec tree does :( It'd be neat if there were different talent builds on spirit beasts, for example bear = tenacity, loque'nahak = cunning and gondria = ferocity 🤷🏼‍♂️

  • @Rizon1985
    @Rizon1985 ปีที่แล้ว +6

    I used to do this in vanilla 15 years ago. Played a moonkin before boomkin form existed and a BM hunter.
    The hunter was fun since your pet could live through fights while with MM you wouldn't do the trouble of having it active. Since your pet was important, it was also way more important to learn proper pet control so that you didn't pull half of molten core on your raid when teleporting or jumping shortcuts. The moonkin was also fun because it made a bigger challenge to gear your char. lvl40 boe greens, having to get people together for the magi staff from dm north, getting the lucifron neck for cheap dkp because all casters had it already.
    It's not something you can do in struggling raids. But in raids of 40man where most of the dps are drooling on their keyboard, you can come out at top5 by just putting in the effort.
    And then when TBC came along, those specs were suddenly good and you already had them in your muscle memory. MM hunters struggling with pets while you had the experience in pet control to let your pet tank heroic dungeons and rush is with 4 dps and a healer that got bored because hunter healing pets was so crazy OP under the new mechanics.

    • @gabrielrauscher6976
      @gabrielrauscher6976 ปีที่แล้ว

      wait you didnt get forced to play restro? xD
      i had to "pay" my way out as feral :D

  • @MrGrifft
    @MrGrifft ปีที่แล้ว

    >Very nice, patient guild.
    Scene transition to
    Thanks for that, I giggled.

  • @Sideshownicful
    @Sideshownicful ปีที่แล้ว +3

    Wrath was a really fun expansion for my hunter when it was live. At the beginning BM was so powerful the BiS shoulder piece was from Mount Hyjal. Then survival took over and explosive shot was a killer. Finally armor penetration became important enough that marksman became the best by far. Minmax hunters got to experience all three specs.
    I can't wait to see how marksman vs survival will shape up in classic wrath

  • @Joini50
    @Joini50 ปีที่แล้ว +10

    Frost is fun to play in PVE, Deep Freeze does MASSIVE damage on targets it can't freeze. I remember doing 80-85k crits with it back in retail days in ICC

    • @drumlineking07
      @drumlineking07 ปีที่แล้ว

      Agreed.... it's a fucking nuke lol

  • @haygoof
    @haygoof ปีที่แล้ว +7

    Consistently one of the best WoW content creators! Been watching for years now. Keep it up!

  • @tyrgannusgaming6657
    @tyrgannusgaming6657 ปีที่แล้ว +16

    Back in original wrath, it was not entirely uncommon for DK's to be blood dps if they were going for shadowmourne. I know how silly this sounds in the current day, but I was there and remember it distinctly haha

    • @beyOndzZz
      @beyOndzZz ปีที่แล้ว +3

      its still a thing. you will see

    • @EOHRyan
      @EOHRyan ปีที่แล้ว +5

      My guild in 2010 had a Blood DK with Shadowmourne, she pulled some good numbers, it was a full ArP build and quite common back then.

    • @trl2151
      @trl2151 ปีที่แล้ว +2

      @@EOHRyan People will only do it when Sarthe tells them it's good. Then suddenly alot of off meta specs will be popular.

    • @costaskatsounaris7758
      @costaskatsounaris7758 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      No m8 blood dps woth shadowmourne was a beast back then close to warrior and retri!!especially when full on strength arp and crit stats👌👌

    • @BladePocok
      @BladePocok ปีที่แล้ว +2

      @@trl2151 Sarthe is an overhyped PR influencer person, why is he on the top of everything?

  • @r0mul0of
    @r0mul0of ปีที่แล้ว +6

    When Arpen starts to stack, blood dps becomes a monster just like Fury Warriors.

    • @mcsmash4905
      @mcsmash4905 ปีที่แล้ว +2

      but most people probably dont know this and just refuse to take some blood dps's into a raid cause its a ˝˝meme˝˝ spec

    • @EOHRyan
      @EOHRyan ปีที่แล้ว +1

      I always remember seeing Blood Dk DPS in ICC days, people all forgot.

    • @r0mul0of
      @r0mul0of ปีที่แล้ว +1

      ​@@mcsmash4905I know, right? But I remember seeing a lot of people complaining about the spec because they couldn't easily get to 100% arp and would always mess up the rotation.

    • @mcsmash4905
      @mcsmash4905 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      @@r0mul0of it is quite amazing that people could mess up such an easy rotation , if memory serves me right it had like 5 or 6 spells/abbilites to work with

  • @MegaPhester
    @MegaPhester ปีที่แล้ว +2

    As a God-fearing rules-compliant multiboxer who pretty much only does 5-mans I love frost mage and BM hunter because they bring a lot of utility and passable damage in relatively few button presses. I can frostbolt or steady shot all day while healing and keeping threat.

  • @Tuskor130
    @Tuskor130 ปีที่แล้ว +10

    I made a Rogue to have an Inscription alt and I decided to try leveling in Subtlety. It's actually really really good when doing solo questing content, though once you reach the mid 50s and start heading to Outlands it basically drops into a pit. Like, I reached Outland, started a fight with an Infernal for a Hellfire Peninsula quest, and quickly realized how cheeks Sub is once mobs actually have more than 2000 HP

    • @H41030v3rki110ny0u
      @H41030v3rki110ny0u ปีที่แล้ว +1

      But blowing up mobs beforehand and later in wrath feels so good... Real rogue gameplay

    • @wisniamw
      @wisniamw ปีที่แล้ว

      the item lvl jump is just that. You will get some outland greens and you will go back to preme>shadowstep>ambush>evi next!

  • @PaperiLiidokki
    @PaperiLiidokki ปีที่แล้ว +32

    Ahh the times when a game could be played with the fun in mind and not everything min maxed at mind

    • @Boneheaded0
      @Boneheaded0 ปีที่แล้ว +6

      Min maxing is fun. Being expected to do so isnt

    • @Dualities
      @Dualities ปีที่แล้ว +1

      Only noobs look at parses. Ever heard for utility or reacting

    • @uchuuseijin
      @uchuuseijin ปีที่แล้ว +1

      ​@@Dualitiesutility? In wrath? Lmao
      BM had its unique group buff given to paladin and mage and went from being the most popular spec to unusable. Wrath took utility behind the shed and killed it and then threw its entrails around the rest of the yard and bragged about how brutally it killed utility

  • @Preacher_.
    @Preacher_. ปีที่แล้ว +5

    Yo, I'm just saying, if you don't move for kologarns eye beam, that's more uptime for you as a DPS, which means faster kill times, which makes everybody happy.
    Don't pay attention to the healer parse, everyone knows we healers don't look at, nor do we care about that. Trust me bro, we're doing it all for you

    • @AndereundIch
      @AndereundIch ปีที่แล้ว

      If you deal higher dps the healer wont have to heal for as long.

  • @frampton888
    @frampton888 ปีที่แล้ว +17

    Blood DPS isnt as bad as people make out, the real issue is that it has no visibility on things like warcraft logs and wowhead so people assume its awful.

    • @Nworthholf
      @Nworthholf ปีที่แล้ว +3

      I genuinely do more dps in blood than frost in most fights, no idea why.
      And its burst is going to only get better with more arp, to the point of topping meters on fights like saurfang where you can cleave consistently

    • @supersaiyanbino
      @supersaiyanbino ปีที่แล้ว +2

      There's a streamer that plays Blood and he's on the top DPS, and even talks about how raid groups boot him for playing blood without even seeing what he can do. His name is Incan

    • @andromidius
      @andromidius ปีที่แล้ว +1

      Yeah I play with someone who prefers Blood but will play Unholy if asked to. His damage is respectable, though never exceptional. Very consistent though, and he never dies.

    • @Nworthholf
      @Nworthholf ปีที่แล้ว +1

      @@supersaiyanbino well I'm our guild's second in command and a fallback rl, so good luck booting :p My main is actually an unholy tank (bone shield one love), lol

    • @Nworthholf
      @Nworthholf ปีที่แล้ว +1

      @@andromidius sustain is not the strong side of blood indeed, but burst is quite amazing. It is also kinda mandatory to have 245+ weapon, because white dps its by far the most beneficial stat.

  • @DataCollaborate
    @DataCollaborate ปีที่แล้ว +2

    I hope there will be a 2nd part follow up with showing up more Meme Specs.. i mean i have literally never heard about Gladiator warrior.

  • @davidt5194
    @davidt5194 ปีที่แล้ว +3

    TL;DR - unpopular specs are made to seem significantly worse than their actual potential because most "high end" players will play the popular specs and a couple of other factors.
    One issue with leaning too heavily on Warcraft Log stats is the numbers game. Taking hunters for example, as you pointed out there is literally 1% of people playing BM, and 80% playing Survival. While Survival is indeed ahead of BM on sims, it's by far less than WCL stats suggest - about 10% or 1k dps on a "target dummy" fight. Most "good" or minmaxing hunters gravitate towards survival, as may be expected of them in a higher performance guild. Even though it's only ahead of MM by an even smaller margin on sims (~5%) it is by far the most dominant spec.
    Another factor is that looking at overall dps on Ulduar includes fights like Vezax which inflates specs with higher proportions of magic vs physical damage - surv is about 50/50, MM about 40/60, BM is like 90/10. This was definitely worse when hodir was included but Vezax still definitely skews the data.
    Also just to note - the BM spec in the video is pretty janky. Top BMs trapweave and use explosive trap glyph and run 53/10/8 with 8 points in survival for the tracking & trap talents. 2/2 in Go for the Throat is completely wasted as Bestial Discipline is enough to cap pet focus anyway, and it's worth saccing points in Mortal Shots for trap stuff.

    • @mcsmash4905
      @mcsmash4905 ปีที่แล้ว

      the fact that ˝˝hardcore˝˝ sweats have so much control over what everyone plays is so annoying , especialy when the class in question isnt actually bad lol , in this case the blood dps , many years ago on warmane i played blood dps and everyone made fun of me but fast forward to present i see tons of blood dks playing as dps , geee i wonder what happened

    • @lucamckenn5932
      @lucamckenn5932 ปีที่แล้ว

      Go outside and try a real pve encounter; talking to someone. You could really use it.

    • @davidt5194
      @davidt5194 ปีที่แล้ว

      @@lucamckenn5932 lmao keep projecting

  • @ChichiNaka
    @ChichiNaka ปีที่แล้ว +1

    classic/tbc/wrath content is easy enough you can clear any content as any spec, wish more people tried fun shit more often

  • @apljack
    @apljack ปีที่แล้ว +3

    When I still played WoW back in the day, I was a Sub Rogue. Always was Sub, always would be with that character. Other two specs just didn't fit what I had in mind for how my character was is all.

  • @designerwookiee
    @designerwookiee ปีที่แล้ว +6

    Early wrath blood dps was amazing to play, and it's criminal that blizz deprived us all of properly reliving that version of blood with Wrath Classic. Still stuck it out all the way till when the MoP pre-patch hit and it was revamped into the DK tank only spec. And in time my options have become unsatisfying melee necromancer, or 2min CD mint breath damage window that constantly gets interrupted by fight mechanics. Thanks blizz...

    • @NoFutureForG0uda
      @NoFutureForG0uda ปีที่แล้ว +2

      thinking the same, dk got butchered by the version, i wanted to get my weird-ass rime dualhand back, got severely disappointed

  • @BunnychanFarabee
    @BunnychanFarabee ปีที่แล้ว +1

    Funny because I remember Frost DK being one of the meta DK tanks in ICC.

  • @Sauroth
    @Sauroth ปีที่แล้ว +1

    Cool video. In this vein I am reminded of Vanguards who was a gladiator ranked ret paladin in late wrath who was like the only ret to break 3k rating as far as I can remember. Very cool stuff.

    • @andrewkilpatrick5122
      @andrewkilpatrick5122 ปีที่แล้ว

      He also currently has the highest and second highest rated character in 3v3 on retail. So he's still around which is cool.

    • @d.optional3381
      @d.optional3381 ปีที่แล้ว

      Barely anyone broke 3k in og wrath. And rets were very good in some comps.

  • @kristianlangager996
    @kristianlangager996 ปีที่แล้ว +4

    I quite enjoy playing Frost on the two Ulduar fights where I get to play it. Mostly for the Improved Blizzard talent, but also because I genuinely enjoy Frost. Also, Ice Lance suuuucks even with the glyph. Then it crits for HALF of a Frostbolt crit. Sure, it's instant cast, but using Fingers of Frost (without Brain Freeze procs, or Deep Freeze off CD) means casting Frostbolt -> Frostbolt+Ice Lance anyway. And you will be doing far more Frostbolts during a fight, than Ice Lances, not to mention that most FoF procs will coincide with having Deep Freeze off CD, or having a Brain Freeze proc.
    My Guild doesn't have the collective DPS to let me stay Frost over Fire though. Oh well, guess I'll try to burn it all down.

    • @Nworthholf
      @Nworthholf ปีที่แล้ว

      But the difference between frost and arcane is normally 1-1.5k, its not _that_ big of a deal
      (and fire requires completely different gear, so cant directly compare)

    • @dazzlebreak4458
      @dazzlebreak4458 ปีที่แล้ว

      Improved Blizzard would be very good for some encounters in Wrath where you have to deal with mob waves (like Gluth, Faerlina in Naxx or Freya and XT in Ulduar). But if you have problems with them, you can pick it easily as Arcane.

  • @hirotashi
    @hirotashi ปีที่แล้ว

    Eating lunch and watching Willie, best way to enjoy one's break at work.

  • @marcotuerk
    @marcotuerk ปีที่แล้ว

    @WillE
    Back in Wotlk I played a Druid Group Healer. Using the T1 set, which reduced the cooldown of tranquility by 50%. This setbonus stacked with the Talent bonus wich reduced the cooldown by another 50%. So tranquility could be spammed instantly, it was quite a simple time as an Dungeonhealer, because I build the set around Manaregeneration and +heal. This would definitely make an interesting part of an video.

  • @lolpaladins
    @lolpaladins ปีที่แล้ว +1

    I know it's minor, but typically you wouldn't bother as a blood dk taking the plague strike talent, instead you put those points into having stronger pets... and then you can also use glyph of the ghoul, ghoul is a great dps cooldown, even if it isn't permanent.

  • @jameshill2450
    @jameshill2450 ปีที่แล้ว

    I had a prot/fury hybrid warrior that I mainly used for open world farming, and it was so much fun to play. I didn't play him much at all until late, but I was going into Sholazar to farm mines at 72 and doing pretty well. I was geared as a Kara tank (because that's the last I had played him) but dual wielding with fury damage abilities. I didn't kill quite as fast, but I almost never had to stop. And I had 3 stuns with that spec, so people thinking they were getting an easy PvP kill got a nice surprise - I stunlocked rogues a few times, and one time (as level 72) stunned a level 80 who tried to swoop in and steal my titanium just long enough to mine it before he killed me.

  • @bazurful
    @bazurful ปีที่แล้ว

    You should do a video about speccs that "did it wrong" - like the achievement back in pandaland where you could get an achievement for doing it wrong. Like dealing damage as a healer etc. :D

  • @chriso2553
    @chriso2553 ปีที่แล้ว +15

    I really thought you were going to look at some top parse for the spec and deep dive some special tricks. Like off meta trinkets, pets, or devices that would make the spec spike in dps.

  • @joshw3719
    @joshw3719 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    What a cool niche and different style video, thank you for the awesome unique content!

  • @kristijan8518
    @kristijan8518 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    if I remember correctly, the 5% crit debuff on frost mage stacks with blizzard as well so it's good for AOE fights

  • @NG.4769
    @NG.4769 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    I like how your opinion of destruction lock has changed lmao

  • @mrgummage
    @mrgummage ปีที่แล้ว +1

    Raided high end and got Grand Marshal in Vanilla as a Retribution. 👌

  • @brianhohertz5107
    @brianhohertz5107 ปีที่แล้ว

    Lol, im one of those few subs raiding. Been raiding as sub since forever. I just find it more fun! Damage is decent enough, loads of utility with keeping tricks threat up on tank every 20 seconds for only 5 energy. Get to spam finishers due to HAT, shadowstep helps with up time. Execute phase really helps with damage. Good on single target bosses, or ones with mobility.

  • @marcuswilliams6367
    @marcuswilliams6367 ปีที่แล้ว +2

    Can’t imagine u would be able to distinguish them apart but 2h frost. Total dps loss but tons of fun and still viable.

  • @Gastell0
    @Gastell0 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    14:27 - Holy DK? Is it like a freshly woken up paladin without coffee?

    • @Holylightt99
      @Holylightt99 ปีที่แล้ว

      he said unholy

    • @Gastell0
      @Gastell0 ปีที่แล้ว

      @@Holylightt99 Oh yeah, that totally makes more sense

    • @Karami42
      @Karami42 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      You could count the spellpower DK i guess

    • @Gastell0
      @Gastell0 ปีที่แล้ว

      @@Karami42 Oh... I just remembered... I did uh... try a DK with a spellpower in the original wotlk days, huh

  • @josephteller9715
    @josephteller9715 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    There are some odd specs that can be played (hybrids) that show off on the logs as being one spec or another but are not as they seem. Rogue and Shaman Builds can be miscategoried this way (and there is also the use of switch hitters, characters that literally change spec between trash and boss fights depending on what a guild needs, a lot of Healer/DPS switchers exist as do DPS/Tank switchers).

  • @alberich5355
    @alberich5355 ปีที่แล้ว

    Frost Mages have 2 Benefits over other Classes that add the 5% Spell Crit Debuff: a) They can apply it through AoE. b) They don't lose DMG by applying it. Locks don't want to cast SB once they hit the Execute Phase and we don't need to talk about Fire Mages.
    Sub Rogues bring another (quite small) Benefit to Raids: Their Tricks of the Trade has a reduced Cooldown, which allows for more Uptime, boosting the Damage of another DPS more.
    In Regards to Non-Meta-Specs, there are also "alternative" Specs. 17/0/54 UH with focus on ArP would be an Example, although that would only become viable with T10.

  • @BigRocker-ot2yw
    @BigRocker-ot2yw ปีที่แล้ว +3

    Blood dk dps in icc is a pretty good dps, sadly bdk dps heavly relies on arp like warriors thus making unholy and frost better specs in previous raid tears. In Icc and RS it does a lot of damage, but it brings no utility to the raid.

  • @tuubi2783
    @tuubi2783 ปีที่แล้ว

    You forgot to give a shoutout to sub rogue in original wrath. In Naxxramas tier Honor Among Thieves had no internal cooldown so it was completely busted for a while.

  • @JustCaow
    @JustCaow ปีที่แล้ว +1

    Love this video. As I am playing BM hunter and Blood DPS (when I dont tank) and I’m leveling a Sub Rogue.
    I get alot of hate since I only pug my raids :( regardless of me not being dead last on dps :(
    And for Naxx patch my then main (hunter) was playing a homebrew MELEE spec (BM/Surv) which they broke when they fixed pet energy. I parsed around 70 percentile on the BM logs in subpar pugs. And even then did not end up last on DPS (except on Malygos cuz pets and traps cant damage flying disc bois)

  • @garysan
    @garysan ปีที่แล้ว +2

    The top parsing player on Grobbulus is also a sub rogue, whos also the top parsing sub rogue in the game. Their name is Nxf, im surprised you didnt look at his logs

    • @Jehbabz
      @Jehbabz ปีที่แล้ว +6

      He played it once for memes and got out dps'ed by a 90 parsing assa in a lot worse gear. This is why nobody brings the spec

    • @brandoncastellano1858
      @brandoncastellano1858 ปีที่แล้ว

      I love Grobb

    • @EOHRyan
      @EOHRyan ปีที่แล้ว +2

      Top parser but not top dps? The thing with less popular specs is it's easy to get top parses because nobody plays them. I was the top parsing Gladiator Warrior in WOD for a while, I got like 8 rank 1 parses in a single raid, and then I went back to playing Arms where I didn't have any rank 1 parses in the entire expansion, or since.

    • @Valvad0ss
      @Valvad0ss ปีที่แล้ว

      @@JoeSchmoeCLAPS I mean he is right and who asked you? Sit down 🤡

  • @Xsorus
    @Xsorus ปีที่แล้ว +2

    I've actually done ok with BM hunter so far, Even not trap weaving I've done within 500 DPS of my Survival Setup, Granted on some fight like Vex Survival is just simply better, but BM isn't absolutely terrible.

    • @WALTAH2000
      @WALTAH2000 ปีที่แล้ว

      That must mean you’re terrible at survival

  • @corbynstarsmore6846
    @corbynstarsmore6846 ปีที่แล้ว

    Does anybody remember Felguard/Emberstorm back in original WotLK? It seemed like such a big thing back then; but it's like it never even existed, now.

  • @_gavimations
    @_gavimations ปีที่แล้ว +1

    Mm, I do really enjoy playing frost mage/arms warr, but I tend to equate my self-worth in a raid of dungeon environment to whatever shows up on the meter. It goes without saying that those two specializations generally don’t beat the umpteenth affliction warlock/assassination rogue/frost DK.
    I’ve met far too many people in pugs who have no qualms about shit-talking me for subpar damage when I just want to play what makes sense and feels good.
    Yeah, go ahead and put me on blast for caring what internet people think, or for taking it all personally. I don’t like being told that I should be kicked out of a raid because I’m “not parsing” or that I’m “a burden to the group”- I can’t imagine you folks would, either. I just want to unwind after a long day of dealing with dumb shit and people IRL and can’t manage to escape either of those things- sometimes both at the same time when it’s people doing dumb shit in WoW.
    And there are so many harpies underneath this video who are looking to flame people for doing anything but sweating in every possible facet while playing. Damn shame, really. What’s up with that?

  • @Epicdps
    @Epicdps ปีที่แล้ว +1

    Would love a follow up video on this to see which boss fights off meta specs parse (pad) the best on due to them being able to abuse some burst phase or other mechanic with their special talent setup

  • @GonkOrange
    @GonkOrange ปีที่แล้ว +1

    According to warcraft logs, the DPS of the top 10% of beastmastery players is only about 300 lower than the top 10% of marksmanship hunters... I bet if there were simply more high-level players playing these specs, they could move them up the DPS meters. This would in turn cause even more players to start playing those specs, etc. etc. (except for subtlety)

    • @QPoily
      @QPoily ปีที่แล้ว

      Unfortunately BM scales extremely poorly with secondary stats and now that ArP is already starting to become a thing in ToGC, whatever little gap there currently is will widen as ArP becomes more plentiful. Reason being that pets don't benefit from ArP whatsoever and Hunters in general don't scale well with Haste in WotLK. That leaves only Crit being a fully functional secondary stat for BM hunters while ArP is only going to affect your ranged AA + Steady Shot damage, and Haste only affecting your pet's AAs + ranged AA + Steady Shot DPS. And since every piece of gear has 2 secondary stats on them, that means half the scaling from your gear's secondary stats barely does anything.
      Boomies have a similar problem in late ToGC and in ICC. At some point they reach their Haste + Crit softcaps at which point those secondary stats their usefulness literally gets cut in half as they'll only affect either your Wrath, or Starfire. Wrath stops benefitting from Haste upon reaching 450-500~ haste at which point only Starfire benefits from Haste. Starfire stops benefitting from crit upon reaching IIRC around 45% character sheet crit chance at which point only Wrath benefits from Crit.

  • @DingoDful
    @DingoDful ปีที่แล้ว

    My guilds locks are mostly destruction and we are usually filling out the top 3 spots on meters 🎉

  • @NubrangeLtd
    @NubrangeLtd ปีที่แล้ว +3

    As the arp increases blood dk dps going to be more viable than you'd think

    • @triploshadow
      @triploshadow ปีที่แล้ว +1

      No It will still be shit throughout the entire expansion.

    • @Velvydian
      @Velvydian ปีที่แล้ว

      You clearly have never seen a good blood dps

  • @hi14993
    @hi14993 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    If all the charges are being used on hemorrage, then that is basically +750 damage(or 1k-ish if glyphed) to that hemorrage ability. the fact that the entire raid benefits from it means that the damage increase is not reflected in the rogue's damage but it is instead a boost to the raid's damage. thankfully, it is super spammable so it can be up practially 100% of the fight. Same thing for the boosted recharge on tricks. You can practically have it up for 50% of a fight significantly boosting someone else's damage. So i'm not surprised that people are overlooking sub for PvE.

    • @QPoily
      @QPoily ปีที่แล้ว

      Unfortunately looking at the top Sub rogue parsers Hemorrhage has a pretty low up-time on the boss. The top parser on Ignis for example has a 9% up-time, while #2 has a 13%~ up-time. Assuming it does have a 10% up-time on a boss that means that the 1000 bonus damage has a 10% up-time, which translates into a raid-wide 100 DPS increase. Which isn't much within the context of raid DMG, which in the case of the #1 Sub rog parser on Ignis was 170k~.

  • @lazydave9761
    @lazydave9761 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    Imagine playing a spec someone tells you to play instead of the one you want to play.

  • @dirufanboy1971
    @dirufanboy1971 ปีที่แล้ว

    Thankfully I never gave two tiny tosses about stupid bloody Raiding, so I played whatever I wanted to play in BGs and open world (11 years as a Sub Rogue).

  • @Sqied
    @Sqied ปีที่แล้ว +29

    I'm a simple man. I see a WillE video i press like!

    • @tomik6537
      @tomik6537 ปีที่แล้ว

      edited becausw typing is hard

    • @jamieweir645
      @jamieweir645 ปีที่แล้ว

      I like willy videos too...., wait..

    • @lightner6924
      @lightner6924 ปีที่แล้ว +3

      Gay

  • @Moonvenger
    @Moonvenger ปีที่แล้ว +5

    I think you got a major part of BM Hunter wrong. They want to use Glyph of Explosive Trap and trapweave with it on CD.

    • @dcinsc
      @dcinsc ปีที่แล้ว

      Yep

    • @tomik6537
      @tomik6537 ปีที่แล้ว

      huge dps

  • @baseballfan4877
    @baseballfan4877 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    Actually only played blood dps. Found it really fun to play. Big numbers, insane burst. Actually underrated af

    • @trl2151
      @trl2151 ปีที่แล้ว

      Same, but because content creators refuse to acknowledge it, and logs don't either..It's hard to get people to accept it even if you have good numbers.

    • @Thegiggleofsteel
      @Thegiggleofsteel ปีที่แล้ว

      Believe sims currently are showing that blood dk will outscale other DK specs in togc and icc. Largely because it benefits far more from arp than the others

    • @HowIPartedTheRedSea
      @HowIPartedTheRedSea ปีที่แล้ว

      ​@@Thegiggleofsteel was that not all an April Fools day joke?

  • @DomWarfield
    @DomWarfield ปีที่แล้ว

    This was a great video! I was actually wondering this myself earlier today

  • @hasuwary
    @hasuwary ปีที่แล้ว +7

    exotic pets provide some sick buffs, like Worm give Sunder Armor - which is big!

    • @LatencyProblem
      @LatencyProblem ปีที่แล้ว +2

      I guess the main problem is that Worms are not Ferocity

    • @jamesladd8357
      @jamesladd8357 ปีที่แล้ว +3

      to specify its 5% armor pen the same one feral dps does not the real sunder armor

    • @douglasprimm4683
      @douglasprimm4683 ปีที่แล้ว +3

      @@jamesladd8357 Wasps bring Faerie Fire equivalent, worms bring sunder

    • @Zetasphere
      @Zetasphere ปีที่แล้ว +1

      Reminds me that I had a ravager back in the day called DontGoCombat because it brought the combat rogue buff instead. My rogue friends were not amused.

    • @cosmifall
      @cosmifall ปีที่แล้ว +2

      @@jamesladd8357 worm does apply the real sunder armor, 2 stacks of 10% armor reduction making it a total of 20%, much better than feral, and unless you have a prot warrior that auto applies sunders it can make a huge difference for 10man raids

  • @MrLocurito
    @MrLocurito ปีที่แล้ว

    not a dps build, but i remember using frenzied striker as a tank weapon as i was playing an off tank warrior that went with 2handers... and then changing it to a draconic avenger, when it dropped.
    to say that my guild was happy when it first dropped on BL it's an understatement.

  • @DrPluton
    @DrPluton ปีที่แล้ว

    I absolutely loved the Frostfire spec in original WotLK. Fire and Frost talents with Frostfire Bolt as our main damage spell instead of Fireball was fun. Having to go Arcane when ICC released was a downer because that spec was too predictable.

    • @treemustach
      @treemustach ปีที่แล้ว

      That makes no sense. Fire is better than arcane in ICC. Why would you ever "have" to switch.

    • @DrPluton
      @DrPluton ปีที่แล้ว

      @@treemustach Because my guild said Arcane was best for Trial and ICC. They may have been wrong, but it was a long time ago.

  • @Karami42
    @Karami42 ปีที่แล้ว +2

    I remember blood DK using runic strike (the spell that the log's icon is) instead of DC though
    Used to play BDK dps in actual wrath, shit was amazing. With good gear and good arpen, you would oneshot fools with crits in PVP. Big death strike crit, bam, dead

    • @jaycooney405
      @jaycooney405 ปีที่แล้ว

      Oh so you mean when they were broken?

    • @mcsmash4905
      @mcsmash4905 ปีที่แล้ว

      the bdk rotation is also quite a joke

  • @VulturousStuff
    @VulturousStuff ปีที่แล้ว +1

    I was beast master in wrath it was fun I mean hunting rare more powerful pets was always a pull for me anytime I reroll hunter I always go pick up the ghost car from the statues it's tedious it's extra but it's special and enjoyable

  • @desertranger82
    @desertranger82 ปีที่แล้ว

    One thing you can do with exotic pets is train a worm, they reduce armor for 30%

  • @majormarketing6552
    @majormarketing6552 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    Always get ghostly strike… hemorrage helps you and raid for auto attacks so buff auto attack in combat. Evading gives you combo attacks and cleaves are a thing in this game

  • @CaptainSweatpants90
    @CaptainSweatpants90 ปีที่แล้ว

    Hey Blizzard, free game design tip:
    If Beastmaster sucks, hows about you buff the shit out of exotic pets? Kinda sucks that you have to play a bad specc AND make a "bad" decision within that specc to benefit from one of the coolest features in the game.

  • @Lucas-qo5go
    @Lucas-qo5go ปีที่แล้ว

    sub rogue has always been my favorite spec in the game. in legion I think sub rogues were at their peak. could do pvp and over and you got the flex of saying I play one of the most confusing classes to play hahah

  • @epexlive9865
    @epexlive9865 ปีที่แล้ว +6

    You forgot to mention trapweave as beast mastery. Still the best option to push numbers :)

    • @neooutlaws
      @neooutlaws ปีที่แล้ว

      hell ye

    • @andromidius
      @andromidius ปีที่แล้ว +3

      On short fights, 100%. BM does pretty nutty burst damage.

  • @mikeykm1993
    @mikeykm1993 ปีที่แล้ว

    I played blood DPS for naxx and it was awesome. Moved to Druid as the guild needed a healer for the rest of the expansion

    • @trl2151
      @trl2151 ปีที่แล้ว

      Imagine with Arp

  • @hugom7507
    @hugom7507 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    Ah of course he forgets about the Holy priests

  • @arkfan5345
    @arkfan5345 ปีที่แล้ว

    Blood is actually huge however you do not take the last 2 stuff in the tree. And go bit into frost tree. Very high tanking and high threat snapping for "main" tanking blood is huge. For off-tanking should be frost tanking

    • @slorbonmyknorb777
      @slorbonmyknorb777 ปีที่แล้ว

      Not if you're fighting algalon, frost tanking cant handle it, even as an off tank. You can do it with either deep unholy for bone shield and anti magic zone, or meta blood for will of the necro

  • @Avelek1
    @Avelek1 ปีที่แล้ว

    There are 2 procs frost mage has. 1 is fingers of frost that is used to cast ice lance and deep freeze and 2nd brain freeze used to cast frostfire bolt

  • @ra3975
    @ra3975 ปีที่แล้ว

    It seems balance is borderline meme spec. I am also glad they buffed feral, those logs showed how trash they are. Druid needs some dps love

  • @Kristers_K
    @Kristers_K ปีที่แล้ว +5

    It's a roleplaying game, everyone can and should be able to play whatever they want in any situation, parsing elitists be damned. The game should be about fun, playing a class/spec you enjoy, not parses, that's what it means to play an RPG. If i wanted parses i'd play MOBAs/shooters. Being ''forced'' into certain specs/skills/builds is the one thing i whole-heartedly despise in an RPG game. Luckily WoW has always been great at making all specs work to some degree, even vanilla.

    • @tomik6537
      @tomik6537 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      yeah but did you get invited to ulduar

    • @tomik6537
      @tomik6537 ปีที่แล้ว

      mobas and shooters dont have parse culture you bafoon

    • @UtaChan69
      @UtaChan69 ปีที่แล้ว

      saying " Luckily WoW has always been great at making all specs work to some degree, even vanilla.", this is complete bullshit, see how many people played prot pala in vanilla and that's cuz it fuckin' sucked ass, same goes for feral and moonbois...Arms,Spriest and many other specs. WYM WoW has always been great at making all specs work to some degree, they either work or they don't no in between. But i absolutely agree with parsing being bad to the game, sadly there's not much we (players) can do about it. Be like me, don't like it, move on to another game.
      Ps: Sorry for bad english

    • @Kristers_K
      @Kristers_K ปีที่แล้ว +3

      @@UtaChan69 That's a gross exaggeration, they simply weren't top performers and that's fine. Those specs were more than playable in a raid environment and people did play them. The issue was not in the class/spec itself, but the player mindset...the elitist/competitive/ parsing mindset that plagues modern gaming.
      Just because a class doesn't perform in the top 5 doesn't make it trash, anything works with enough determination.
      People are so disconnected from the RPG concept, it's ridiculous.

  • @Fglahnable
    @Fglahnable ปีที่แล้ว +1

    I cant believe u didnt talk about destro warlocks

  • @Korvmannen
    @Korvmannen ปีที่แล้ว

    I think you missed prot dps! They may only be relevant with arp hard cap, though. Nice video. For the next one, maybe a look at hybrid specs? 🤔 As in smite priest or holy shock pala for combining damage and healing with utility. A shaman in my guild ran some sort of enhancement/resto hybrid that he used in heroics, and it was fun to play with him doing that in that environment (but it requires a huge amount more of effort and attentiveness to get even decent performance compared to standard healer rotations).

  • @RonGrethel
    @RonGrethel ปีที่แล้ว

    Double big and red BM was awesome in OG wrath...

  • @Jhamantheshaman
    @Jhamantheshaman ปีที่แล้ว +2

    Another thing to note about BM hunter is their ability to bring a missing raid buff. They can grab worms for a subpar Sunder Armor if no rogue or warrior is in the raid or a Rhino with Stampede for more bleed damage. Could be decent for 10 mans, but the buff that you bring as BM might be better served just going survival and increasing your damage output.

    • @bandit7459
      @bandit7459 ปีที่แล้ว +3

      Also the hunter loses like 2k dps bringing a worm over a wolf. Unless you have half the raid as ferals and frost dks....it is never going to be worth in a 10 man.

    • @dukemarriott
      @dukemarriott ปีที่แล้ว

      Lol. Not having a warrior or a rogue? What kind of a raid group is that?

    • @Jhamantheshaman
      @Jhamantheshaman ปีที่แล้ว

      @@dukemarriott A terrible one. Maybe a 10 man.

  • @ryospeedwagon1456
    @ryospeedwagon1456 ปีที่แล้ว

    I shelled out the 1k gold back in Wrath to dual spec for a Blood Tank spec and a Blood DPS spec because I'm insane. Blood dps is pretty legit if you go pretty hard on it. Needs Armor Penn. I spent forever getting the Needle Encrusted Scorpion.

  • @lead111
    @lead111 ปีที่แล้ว

    As BM hunter you would still be trap weaving with explosive trap glyph. Should’ve been obvious on the logs

  • @CharterForGaming
    @CharterForGaming ปีที่แล้ว

    Blood DK the first weeks of wrath was absolutely broken, soloing 5-6 people in alterac valley at lvl 58

  • @MSDGAMEZ
    @MSDGAMEZ ปีที่แล้ว +1

    I just started playing WOW. What addon makes your health bar and mana bar like that?

  • @rethix5955
    @rethix5955 ปีที่แล้ว

    Shout out to all my Sub brothers and sisters, from classic. We played the meme and we shined.

  • @RoseArkana
    @RoseArkana ปีที่แล้ว +1

    I feel like no one plays them simply because the greater community at large won't let them; you either get with the meta or get left out, because the community are a bunch of min-maxing nolifers who don't have fun anymore.

  • @Marconius6
    @Marconius6 ปีที่แล้ว

    I vaguely recall playing Frost Mage in Wrath... although I think it was Frostfire focused?

  • @aimilios439
    @aimilios439 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    I love playing BM! Chimera is the best pvp pet, even though the rest of the spec is just worse than MM. :Ρ Still, I like the gameplay and the looks, so I don't really care. I've got Nuramoc, King Krush and Lokue'nahak. I love them.

  • @FlatMetal22
    @FlatMetal22 ปีที่แล้ว

    I'm glad you mentioned that deep freeze comment that it's the highest individual hitting spell in the expansion, I'm sure I commented that on a previous video 😅
    Frost brings nice utility too since as a lower dps they can be utilised for CC.

  • @yvonneyuman8727
    @yvonneyuman8727 ปีที่แล้ว

    I played a survival hunter in vanilla. It was like doing trigonometry. It was hard. It was fun. It was suboptimal and no one cared.

    • @GhostLP799
      @GhostLP799 ปีที่แล้ว

      For hunters ist triggernometry :^)

  • @BigRedDog-mz3or
    @BigRedDog-mz3or ปีที่แล้ว

    I gave Blood dps a go and sat comfortably at 3.5-4k dps phase 1.

  • @spooky_zen
    @spooky_zen ปีที่แล้ว +1

    the fundemental problem with wow is itemization vs balance. the spectrum of potential gear that drops limits creativity. Wow was orginally designed off the diablo itemization but is watered down

  • @esaualfaro3447
    @esaualfaro3447 ปีที่แล้ว

    I legit want to lvl up a frost mage for PvE but I'm scared I'll be "forced" to swap or no one will invite me.

  • @ValtaKash
    @ValtaKash ปีที่แล้ว

    I remember clearing ICC 25HC without ever looking at a wowhead guide lol (class or raid). Times change I guess.

  • @lance1625
    @lance1625 ปีที่แล้ว

    I played bm hunter with worm for our naxx 10man guild fun runs. I would have the 20% sunder armor on boss and have my pet take dmg/hit from tank which was awesome. Horrible Dps but awesome to see the worm take a 15k hit from the tank and survive.

  • @darodaredevil
    @darodaredevil ปีที่แล้ว +2

    I used to play blood dk dps in ICC and in 10man HC I was top 3 consistently, sometimes even getting close to our top dps lock. So in limited environment its perfectly viable spec. Especially if setup with feral or fury

    • @mcsmash4905
      @mcsmash4905 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      years ago on warmane i played blood dps and everyone essentialy called me a moron for not playin frost or some nonsense , but now i see more blood dks playing as dps , gee i wonder what happened lmao

    • @pandurlolgg5780
      @pandurlolgg5780 ปีที่แล้ว

      Dancing rune weapon doubled dps

  • @feroxk.9266
    @feroxk.9266 ปีที่แล้ว

    Well, playing as SV Hunter in Classic in raids surely was funny or trying to get the Eshkandar Offhand as someone using fist weapons...

  • @trl2151
    @trl2151 ปีที่แล้ว

    Part of the issue I fear for Blood dps though is that Warcraft logs doesn't like to count Hysteria properly for blood , or should I say Runeblade dps..So you need to factor that in aswell.

  • @QPoily
    @QPoily ปีที่แล้ว

    I played Frost mage in a Naxx10 at the very start of the Wotlk Classic. It felt surprisingly good and did relatively competitive damage to Arcane at the pre-raid BiS gear level in Naxx10. Managed to snipe a few 100 parses purely cause nobody actually played it and I was tryharding the spec.
    The best part about Frost Mage is, as mentioned in the vid, its ability to Cold Snap reset its Icy Veins CD. Combined with the short kill times in Naxxramas in general made it very strong thanks to its synergy with BL/Heroism and it having a high up-time relative to the kill length. I didn't bother taking Eternal Water Ele glyph myself at the time since I figured the 45 sec base duration + Cold Snap resetting Water Ele's CD, extending Water Ele uptime to 90 seconds, was enough uptime that I could take a different glyph instead. It also reaaally helped that in Classic CDs are automatically refreshed upon killing a boss, meaning that Cold Snap would be up for every boss fight and that for every boss fight you'd be able to 40 sec Icy Veins alongside BL/Heroism.
    I had a lot of fun playing it and it made me really wish that Frost could somehow be a competitive DPS in WotLK. Its rotation, while extremely simple, feels quite satisfying thanks to Deep Freeze and Cold Snapping Icy Veins. One way Blizzard could've buffed it is by buffing the Glyph of Ice Lance. Since it isn't a worthwhile glyph to take in PvP anyways (due to it not working against players of the same lvl as you) it'd buff Frost PvE's Ice Lance damage without impacting PvP balance. But even then Frost Mage would struggle with it being a very, very RNG spec. Your damage breakdown will virtually always be Frostbolt doing 40-50% of your damage simply because of how infrequently Brain Freeze and FoF procs.