Not only is it a common position, but it is even documented in the church itself. In the Discourses of Brigham Young, "When [Joseph Smith] went to Carthage he said, “I go to death; I go like a lamb to the slaughter; I go to my fate” (DBY, 467). Former Mormon here. So many Mormons are mislead and just don't know it.
Hey Jamie SNG. I do know something about Mormonism. I was LDS 33 years and since have spent 35 years researching LDS history. You don't like the implications of this video, so you attack it with venom. I'm sure you have a "testimony" that you've repeated enough times to block a mountain of facts, and you have all those "good feelings" that are the sure test of truth. What you lack are facts. This man is right on the money and has done his research. You make yourself look foolish by emotional outbursts backed by hot air.
As for Emma, she was asked one day if the church was true. She answered yes it was but she wished it wasn't. Why would she say that? Because she endured trials you and I cannot understand or comprehend. Just like all the witnesses who held the gold plates, many of which left the church, some bitter to the church, they never, ever denied they had seen and touched the plates. What did they have to gain after they left the church? (next)
Bill McKeever is an American author and critic of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS Church). He serves with Mormonism Research Ministry (MRM), which he founded in 1979 in El Cajon, California with the hope of informing people about what he perceives as differences between Mormonism and mainline Christianity. His writings are also often focused on the claims of Joseph Smith, the founder and original leader of the Latter Day Saint movement.- Wikipedia
I couldn't locate the comment of CallMeOptimist to respond to it. It was my experience during my time in the Mormon Church that Joseph was spoken of more than Jesus Christ. But that was not my primary reason for leaving the church, which I eventually saw as not based on the Bible. In fact, many core Mormon beliefs, such as eternal marriage, baptism for the dead, multiple levels of heaven for different levels of believers, and the belief that man can become a god are contradictory to the sound doctrine of the Bible.
Joseph was a human being, being a prophet doesn't make him perfect or sinless, we all know that many prophets in the bible did in fact commit sins and they were punished for that. Joseph Smith, like everyone else will be accountable for what he did good or bad. I don't see how being a human being disqualify him from being a prophet of God, I know that there are sins that are very serious and cannot be easily forgiven.
Your portrayal of the history is not quite accurate. There is no indication in the historical record that Joseph Smith was "furious" about the Expositor as is claimed in this video. He was however, terrified that by publishing this information prematurely that certain angry mobs would attack again as had previously occurred. The lawful and orderly destruction of the Printing Press was a result of a vote by the Nauvoo City Council, not Joseph Smith. This was a perfectly legal action at the time, to preserve the peace and avoid further violence that the city council feared that the Expositor would generate. Mormons make no claim as the the reasons why polygamy was practiced. The reasons were diverse, and no single marriage was the same. To state that all polygamous marriages were to raise up seed is an over generalization of a very complex issue. The sealings of the 10 women who were already married were not sexual relationships. After being sealed these women continued to live with their own husbands. Women were given the right to choose to whom they would be sealed. One woman was 14 years of age, however this was not unheard of in the US in the 1800s. Nine percent of marriages that occurred in the 1800s to teens, were to men who were 35 years of age. Is it really relevant that Joseph Smith was carrying a pistol for his personal protection? Not really. Joseph was not carrying a smuggled gun into Carthage because technically he was not supposed to be a prisoner. It does not in any way make his death any less of a martyr attempting to defend himself. I wonder if any of the Early Christian martyrs fought back? Would that matter? Of course not, and they did fight back. The whole basis for this ridiculous argument: that Joseph Smith fighting back somehow diminishes the Early Christian martyrs, is based entirely on your negative feelings toward Smith and probably the church in general. By the way, it is not implausible that the guards would let in an assassin since the guards were Carthage Grays and were a hostile militia force, you failed to mention that little tidbit of information. The Word of Wisdom was enforced differently in the 19th century than today. Observance of the Word of Wisdom has changed over time, due to on-going revelation from modern-day prophets, who put greater emphasis on certain elements of the revelation originally given to Joseph Smith. Early Latter-day Saints were not under the same requirements as today's Saints are. The saints at the time of Joseph Smith only forbid drinking of strong drinks. Wine was not forbidden if it was used in careful moderation. The endowment ceremony was created prior to Joseph becoming a mason, not after. Oh please... Your attempt to paint the church as untrustworthy for not emphasizing certain points of its history is extraordinarily hypocritical. Every religious organization, that actually has a history that is, does the same thing because the spiritual truths are not dependent upon knowing weather or not Joseph Smith had a gun. Do you talk about the points of doctrine that incited the Salem Witch Trials during church meetings? Of course not. And it is foolish to hold the LDS church to that unreasonable standard. There are some things that are simply not relevant for the context of the situation. This hardly constitutes "airbrushing", since a lot of this information came from books published by the church, as you yourself admit. In any case, after the destruction of the Press Joseph Smith was arrested for inciting a riot against the press. 13 June 1844 The Nauvoo municipal court released Joseph on a writ of habeas corpus, finding that the charge of “riot” was unsubstantiated since the destruction of the press had been orderly. 14 June 1844 Thus cleared, Joseph Smith (as mayor) took his seat as judge over the municipal court, and cleared all others charged the day following his own release. This recurrent mix of religious, executive, and judicial power again infuriated the anti-Mormons. 17 June 1844 Joseph and others consented to be brought before another court, headed by a (then non-Mormon) justice of the peace, Daniel H. Wells. Wells again discharged them, but did not have the authority to acquit them. 18 June 1844 Joseph Smith declares martial law in Nauvoo and calls out the militia to protect the city from anti-Mormon mobs. 22 June 1844 Governor Ford writes to tell Joseph that he must face charges before the same judge that issued the writ for his arrest, because only this will appease the public. This requires Joseph to appear in a very hostile community, where feelings against the Mormons run high. 23 June 1844 Joseph and Hyrum leave Nauvoo to seek refuge over the Mississippi. Some members appeal to Joseph to return, believing (contrary to Joseph’s promise) that the members of the Church would be despoiled and driven out if he did not. Joseph agrees to return, stating, “If my life is of no value to my friends it is of none to myself.” Governor Ford guaranteed the safety of Joseph and others if they went to Carthage 25 June 1844 the state governor (Thomas Ford) believed that only a state trial would calm the furor over the Expositor. Joseph and fifteen others therefore received guarantees of safety and presented themselves in Carthage. They were freed on bail pending the October arrival of the circuit court. However, Joseph and Hyrum were jailed by a writ issued by Robert F. Smith, a Methodist minister, justice of the peace, and captain of the Carthage Greys militia. Joseph and Hyrum were accompanied to the jail by John Taylor, Willard Richards, Dan Jones, Stephen Markham, and John S. Fullmer. The latter three left to run errands, and were not readmitted, leaving only Joseph, Hyrum, John Taylor, and Willard Richards. 26 June 1844 Governor Ford meets with the prisoners. He then disbands all the militia companies, except the hostile Carthage Greys. Governor Ford left the hostile Carthage Greys to guard the jail. 27 June 1844 Ford leaves for Nauvoo, leaving two companies of Carthage Greys to guard the jail, while Ford takes a third to Nauvoo. He did not keep his promise that the prisoners could go with him to Nauvoo. After Ford’s departure, the discharged Warsaw militia company attacked the jail. The Carthage Greys gave only token resistance; they had loaded their weapons with gunpowder but no bullets. The Warsaw company stormed the jail, and murdered Joseph and Hyrum. John Taylor was severely injured; Willard Richards was unharmed. en.fairmormon.org/Question:_What_is_the_timeline_of_events_that_led_to_Joseph_Smith%27s_death_in_Carthage%3F
They were trying with all of their might to keep that door shut to prevent their own murders. Joseph used that gun only after hyrum was murdered and the gravity of the situation was obvious, the intent of the mob was murder. He shot 3 bullets through the door, allegedly killing 2 of the mob and wounding a third. That part of killing 2 men was heresay but if true is understandable in the circumstances.(next)
I'm only about half way through this.. But I just have to say.. He firmly believes that Tanner said that Joseph had a gun and shot three men, but completely doubts and doesn't believe at all that Hyrum said "I'm a dead man" as he's falling, as per what Tanner said he said. . Why so Public and believing one thing he said and not another? More picking and choosing. Also.. He said "I know for a fact that I saw the blood stain framed on the floor.. I saw a picture of it." So laughable. Really? That proof wouldn't stand anywhere... That he saw a picture of it. And anyone with any sense would know it was most likely Hyrum's. I should have been writing down all of the other ridiculous things I've been hearing him talking about .. So funny how people just glom on to this stuff. There are so many half truths it's ridiculous. The history of this church... Good or bad.. Has No Effect on whether the Book of Mormon Is True. People are people.. I have read the Book of Mormon 4 tines... There is NO Way a single man just sat down and wrote this. Go read it for yourself... With a Sincere Heart.. Truthfully seeking for yourself.. Honestly seeking God's spirit to be with you so you'll know if it's true or not... Go ahead and read it. What are you afraid of? Go to www.mormon.org and get a free copy sent to you.. Read it..All of it.. And then ask God yourself if it's true. By the Power of the Holy Ghost you may know the truth of all things. The Book of Mormon Is True. It's an account of a people, a nation that lived here on this content hundreds of years before Christ's birth. In this record are accounts of these people. Prophets told of the coming of the Savior's Birth. They were given the signs of His birth.. And signs of His death. They believed and we're persecuted... After the Savior's death He visited these people.. And there's an account of it in this book. We believe the Bible.. We use it side by side with our Book of Mormon. We Love the scriptures.. All of them. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is Jesus Christ's Restored church.. Read the Book of Mormon.. And find out for yourself. I will not engage in any negative replies.. Just check what spirit is within you before you reply.. Is it dark and angry?? Then it's not from God.
No "temple" was ever in my heart--at least for the last 10 years when I resigned my LDS membership. There are a lot better ways to spend 25 million than on gaudy looking temples--Christ-like ways--temples that stand virtually vacant (except in Utah)--temples where the leadership has to BEG members to go. Truly a sick situation.
A lot of Mormon history is altered when taught to members and investigators, or is not taught at all. In the Mormon church, members are warned to avoid all literature/arguments given that goes against church teachings, saying that it's a tool of Satan and will tear down their spirit. It goes without saying that this makes giving people the truth very difficult.
So Joseph Smith and his brother had guns. What is the point? They were prisoners in great physical jeopardy. Smith never represented himself or his religion to be pacifists. He never renounced the right of self-defense. There are a great many things to question about Smith, but I just don’t see this as being one of them.
What is not disputed is that a mob of about 200 men stormed a jail where 4 men who were AWAITING trial. The killed (murdered) two of them, one of who was completely unarmed and wounded another before they stood trial. So really where do your sympathies and allegiances lie - with a mob willing to murder men without a trial, including some who had not even been accused, or a group of 4 men who had recently sung "A Poor Wayfaring Man of Grief"
LDS scripture says, "Joseph Smith...has done more, save Jesus...for the salvation of men in this world than any other man...(D. & C. 135:3). Brigham said, "No man or woman in this dispensation will ever enter the celestial kingdom of God without the consent of Joseph Smith...He holds the keys...for the last dispensation" (JoD Vol. VII, p. 289). Church News: "No man/woman...will ever enter the celestial kingdom of God without the consent of Joseph Smith" Church News, November 2, 1968, p. 14.
Thank you so much for clearly describing the character of Joseph Smith. He was not the sanctified figure they want to believe he was. I was a member during my teen years, until I realized that the church worshiped Joseph more than they did Jesus. Oh yes, today there are more attempts to make it seem mainstream. But it has a rotten foundation.
I have no problem with Joseph Smith trying to defend himself and his friends with a pistol, and I agree that church historians should acknowledge it. If that negates his status as a "martyr," then that term has no meaning.
It's not very fair or accurate to characterize what transpired at Carthage jail as a "gun fight". Attempting to win a dispute by gunning down your opponent before he guns you down is fundamentally different from getting rushed and brutalized by an angry mob (that outnumbers you by a ratio of 50 to 1), even if you manage to fire off a few self defense rounds first.
Indeed he does. I studied and searched and prayed. And God led me OUT of Mormonism. And He's leading over 100,000 Mormons per year OUT of that corporate church--a business PRETENDING to be a religion.
I'm not addressing the issue of whether exercising your right to self defense disqualifies you from being a martyr. I'm saying the term "gunfight" isn't very descriptive of the actual event and can be misleading to those unfamiliar with the facts. It's much more accurate to say that Joseph died at the hands of an angry mob while awaiting trail than to glibly say that he died in a gunfight. Yes, they both fired guns, but it was so one sided that it wasn't a "fight" in any meaningful way.
You should approach everything with an open mind and do your own research besides just following blindly and then come to your own conclusions. Not saying this guy knows what he is talking about. As a Mormon, I find it interesting how many of us think it is ok to condemn and judge just because they don't agree or believe the same as Mormons. Just as bad as the anti Mormons are for attacking the Church. Get over it and practice what you preach.
The full, true story of Joseph Smith's death planted the seed that grew into a wedge that drove me out of the LDS Church after ten active years. If they had been honest and forthright from the beginning it would not have been a problem. I didn't leave my church because of an incident in 1844, I left because I was actively being misled.
The smuggled gun is no secret. You will find the story and a picture of it in the LDS Church's institute manual - the book they use to teach young single adults about Church History. You can find it here www.lds.org/bc/content/shared/content/english/pdf/language-materials/32502_eng.pdf?lang=eng at page 281.
"Those who live by the sword will die by the sword." Smith sent out a mob to attack others who were dissidents against Smith. He used the police power to persecute those who were criticizing HIS abuses of power. For this act of violence & tyranny he was arrested. While being held for his terrible crimes, he is in turn attacked by such a mob. A mob which was arroused by there fear of Smith's Nauvoo Legion, whihc had been used in the earlier act of violence. A wretched sordid story.
Joseph Smith's life speaks for itself - the historic record is clear and fair. There is no need to tell anything but the truth according to the historic record of the day.
i'm just curious, how well does smyth do with the test of the prophets in Deuteronomy 18;21-22 does he fail bad or just a little bit i mean being someone who prophesied a lot of fake stuff like the temple in missouri and all the rest of the stuff he said god said would happen and never did. the cult says he was a prophet and a martyr but killing and lying just makes him a criminal and an adulterer right?
I am coming to the knowledge that something is not right with what the church teaches about the history of the church. However, I’ve wondered if something just went amiss after Joseph died? I feel like Brigham changed and doctored s lot of Joseph’s journals and the D&C. My question is, do you have hard evidence that Joseph actually married all these women he is accused of marrying? Or did Brigham, John Taylor, and others change this history after Joseph died?
Instead of praying about the BOM and feeling that it's true (burning bosom) I tested it against the Bible. What I found was that whoever wrote the BOM unknowingly copied some KJV translation errors into it's text. The 1611 KJV translators made some translation errors. Whoever wrote the BOM plagiarized extensively from the KJV and unknowingly copied some of its translation errors into the BOM text (often times verbatim). This proves the BOM is not the ancient record Smith claimed it to be.
@eag11e Decoded, it reads: “I was taken in to the lodge J Smith was Agness”. The abbreviation “was” means “wedded and sealed”. This marriage was kept a secret. Again, this marriage took place without the required consent of Emma. It also, took place 2 full years before joe wrote his revelation commanding polygamy. Another side note is that Agnes was only 33 years old. Despite some that would characterize joe's wifes as "old spinsters". Clarissa Marvel reveled to Emma the secret marriage.
I love History. :) It helps with the words of Jesus, (There will be false prophets and false teachers and will deceive many) Thank you Jesus for warning us. :)
Joseph Smith had been persecuted, tarred and feathered, beaten, many times since he was 14 (he died at the age of 38. He never wavered from his dedication to God.
In the end everyone will know the truth of Joseph Smith, it was told by the Saviour that both good and bad would be said of His prophet Joseph Smith. Truth shall prevail.
"We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience and allow all men the same privilege. Let them worship how, where or what they may." Joseph Smith
You're preaching to the choir on Joe's imperfections. If he were perfect he wouldn't have made up 4 or 5 differing versions of the "First Vision". (Since there were, you have to ask yourself if he actually had ANY vision.) A perfect man wouldn't be messing with little girls or other men's wives. A perfect man wouldn't lie to his wife about his polygamy. A perfect man wouldn't set up a fraudulent bank, causing his friends to lose their savings, nor would he pretend to know the Egyptian language.
I do family history & the men, some being Kings, married young girls. Up to the 1800's the men were 20 to 10 years older than the women. It's a fact. My mother & one sister married at the age of 15. They were not Mormons.
Objection1: The title is false and ironic. The story of the death of Joseph Smith at Carthage has been well-documented. There were numerous witnesses of the events before, at, and after Carthage jail events. Mr. McKeever re-tells the story of the death of Joseph Smith the way he - the ardent anti-Mormon - wants it to be told. But Mr. McKeever's story is NOT what the eye-witnesses have written and testified.
I wanted to get in the waters but after doing some research . I changed my mind mathew 24:11 and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people
Yes, if you look you will notice this video is 16 YEARS old. Things have changed since the Internet has brought all of this information to light. The church must admit to these details. When I visited 20 years ago nothing was mentioned about it.
As I've said before, it is most accurately characterized as a ruthless murder at the hands of a lynch mob. Attempting to defend yourself or loved ones against the threat of death or serious bodily injury doesn't turn a lynching into a fight. They may share many of the same technical elements, including mutual hostility and violence, but they are different concepts. It is just as intellectually dishonest to say Joseph died in a gunfight as it is to say he was martyred without mentioning his gun.
with all due respect why do you waste time and resourses to discredit the Mormon church or their Prophets instead of doing good for others, disclaimer I am a lds member and nothing can shake my faith. If your faith is so strong why would you dedicate so much into our church?
which books or research do you suggest. I am happy to learn anything. If you know some thing I don;t I want to know. Good Lord this should be interesting as their is not even a concensus on the Holy Bible
I believe his pepperbox pistol and the derringer if I remember right is on display at the church museum in salt lake city. I saw it, and Ive heard the story about Joseph shooting at the mob. Why does that mean he was not a martyr?
I've heard the basics of that story before, but I learned a few new details. Very good discussion, thank you. Another detail that I think is important is that while Joseph Smith publicly declared that famous 'lamb to the slaughter' quote, he secretly ordered the Navoo Legion to march to Carthage to bust him out. He was so confident of his own safety that when someone mentioned the approaching mob, he said not to worry, it's only the Navoo Legion come to free me.
The June 2013 issue of the Ensign magazine, p. 40 (The LDS church's official magazine) has a painting the depicts the murder of Joseph Smith. It shows Joseph, Hyrum, and Willard Richards leaning against the door with A PISTOL IN JOSEPH'S POCKET. That should pretty much debunk the ridiculous theory that the Church is somehow trying to suppress the fact that Joseph discharged a weapon during the martyrdom--which, by the way, I've known since I was 15 years old.
I as I stated before, joe smith was no martyr. His wife described his last act of fleeing the law as Cowardice. If his wife, who was there present at the time describes him as a Coward....Who am I, or you for that matter, to dispute it? I believe her....joe smith was indeed a coward and died trying to defend himself in a gun fight he initiated. Many people were happy when he died! His character was vile and immoral!
Okay, I have a question that may stir up some interest.......... If Joseph was displaying the masonic sign and the bullets he was shot by interrupted his attempt to finish his sentence of "O Lord my God"............... is there no help for the widows son." should we also make the assumption that Joseph would have known who the mob/men were, and that they too were Freemasons and would recognize the sign and the wording of the sign. If this is true, then Freemasons could have shot and killed Joseph. Freemasons would be breaking their oath to come to the aid of a brother. I personally believe that Freemasons and others wanted Joseph dead. They were nervous that Joseph would change Freemasonry. Others were nervous Joseph would run for President and win. Change slavery and religious tolerance across the Nation. He would also bring to light Manifest Destiny and Discovery Doctrine giving legal means for the land to be rightfully brought back to the Native American. Joseph and The Book of Mormon taught that Native Americans had Israelite ancestry and if they were of a Judeo-Christian ancestry, the use of Manifest Destiny and Discovery Doctrine would be illegal and so all the land would need to be returned to it's rightful owner, The Native First Nations. Freemasonry and American Greed were never going to allow this to happen. The sale of America was a scam but you hear nothing of this. In The Book of Mormon Jesus prophesy's of the land being returned to the remnant of Israel (3Nephi chapters 20-22) or in other words The Natives of North America. Joseph's enemies would have been very nervous. (Motive) The Book of Mormon teaches against secret combinations and the Murder of Joseph was certainly a secret combination.
Anyone who has studied the Bible should be aware that the ancient apostles and prophets were human beings with faults just like everyone else. While they do help illustrate his humanity, none of the points made in this video about Joseph Smith would disqualify him from being a prophet of God. Just because this guy in the video has a romanticized perception of early Christian martyrs does not mean that they were actually any different than Joseph Smith.
+Kevin Butler Can you think of any early Christians commonly called "martyrs" that killed others in the attempt to save their own life? We can empathize with a man's self-defense, but it doesn't fit the martyrdom narrative.
as an ex Mormon, I still question why the witnesses at the time of Joseph Smith swore what they witnessed, to their death just as the disciples did...can you help me with this please.
By the way, Dallin Oaks and Joseph Bentley found the court records that detailed the dealings of the failed Nauvoo Bank, which many anti-Mormons use to tarnish Joseph Smith's reputation. There was no evidence that Joseph did anything dishonest, improper or unethical. Check your sources! Do some solid research and analysis! Stop your anti-Mormon rantings!
Is it true that Smith shot 3 people, 2 of whom died? Taylor's claim is: "I afterwards understood that two or three were wounded by these discharges, two of whom, I am informed, died." Was Taylor misinformed? As the mob left he was under the bed bleeding from his own wounds and had to be carried out by Willard Richards. He had no firsthand knowledge of the fate of anyone in the mob. The three injured have been named as John Wills, William Voras and (maybe) William Gallaher. Go ahead and try to find any information about any of those three men. Where did they come from? When did they die? Where were they buried? I'd love to see any documentation about their lives if you can find it. I consider it quite historically unlikely that Smith killed anyone in his final moments.
I asked God to reveal the truth or falsity of Mormonism to me, sincerely and with real intent, and was told to leave it as it was NOT His Church. I did.
Riley Hinds Yes I heard the prison guards though bad for him because so many men coming against him one actually gave him a weapon to help defend himself. I would have done the same thing!
Objection 8, etc: These few objections come only from the first 5 min of McKeever's deceiving presentation. For those of you who truly desire to know the real truth about Joseph Smith, his character, and, MORE IMPORTANTLY, about the Gospel of Jesus Christ, which God commissioned Joseph to restore, please, turn to countless credible, authentic, first-witness accounts, histories and documents of those PRO-Mormon, who knew and loved Joseph Smith, The Prophet.
If I had seen God, and Christ himself (as Smith claims to have had seen them in a vision) I would have let the mob take me freely with my hands held apart so the bullet's wouldn't miss my heart... not with a six-shooter in my hands... guns- a-blazing.
That's a perfect response, eileen. If there is only ONE thing a Real Prophet should be (or even a wannabe-conman prophet) it would be to at LEAST APPEAR to be a person of integrity. Joseph Smith was anything BUT a man of integrity. I feel a bit sensitive about pointing out someone elses weaknesses, because I am no saint either. But neither do I claim to be a Prophet of God.
Exodus 3:14 - And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you. John 14:6 - Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. John 15:5 - I am the vine, ye [are] the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing
Something just occurred to me…I feel really slooow intellectually that I’ve never thought of it before….were JS and Hiram not wearing their garments? I thought they were meant to be bullet proof.
The fact that the adversary has to lead men to create an organization that talks down a prophet of God should tell you something about the truth of this Gospel.
The church doesn't hide the fact that Joseph had a gun, go to the church history museum in Salt Lake City and see the very gun Joseph Smith had publicly on display for everyone to see and it states that states right on the sign by the gun the "gun was smuggled in". This guy says Joseph went out in a gun battle. Some gun battle, one .32 caliber piece of junk pepperbox pistol that has less power than todays .22, a single shot percussion cap gun (that was never used) and two walking sticks against 100 to 200 .60 caliber muskets. These men came with the sole purpose of killing Joseph and Hyrum Smith, they were murdered in cold blood. John Taylor did say that he did hear that two men died from the gun that Joseph had but nobody knows who they were and there is no proof of it. I don't care if you don't like what the Mormon church teaches but this guy is twisting things just like he accuses the church of doing. Why do you people like it so much time tearing down the Mormons? If we want to believe it what is it to you? Spend your time serving Christ and His children, study His words. Love like He loved.
Outlaw, Dr. Mike Quinn was one of the "September Six" who was excommunicated from the LDS Church. Do you know who the "September Six" are? Of all the Mormon historians Dr. Michael D. Quinn is very likely the most knowledgeable historian of Mormon history who is living.
Glad to hear that they published this in June 2013. One hopes it is the beginning of a new pattern of open, explicit historical truth-telling. But surely you can see that this hasn't been the pattern in the past, and that the rest of us are still holding out. For example: will the truth-telling be so clear and consistent so as to meaningfully impact the common members? Will these things become common knowledge among LDS members? Take care.
"The world owes me a good living and if I cannot get it without, I'll steal it and catch me at it if you can." - joe smith, ref. joseph smith's history vault, Wilhelm Ritter von Wymetal, (SLC: Tribune Printing & Pub., 1886)
married Sylvia’s mother, Joseph Smith number 10th, Sylvia thought why would she wanted to marry Joseph? But Braham Young taught that if a man was willing to give her and the man was willing to take her, there is no bill of divorced required, that is right before God, that the woman would be in a higher celestial kingdom if she did accept the proposal. At Sylvia’s dead pent she told her daughter that she was the prophets daughter and not Windsor her father that she grow up with. (next)
Not only is it a common position, but it is even documented in the church itself. In the Discourses of Brigham Young, "When [Joseph Smith] went to Carthage he said, “I go to death; I go like a lamb to the slaughter; I go to my fate” (DBY, 467). Former Mormon here. So many Mormons are mislead and just don't know it.
Hey Jamie SNG. I do know something about Mormonism. I was LDS 33 years and since have spent 35 years researching LDS history. You don't like the implications of this video, so you attack it with venom. I'm sure you have a "testimony" that you've repeated enough times to block a mountain of facts, and you have all those "good feelings" that are the sure test of truth. What you lack are facts. This man is right on the money and has done his research. You make yourself look foolish by emotional outbursts backed by hot air.
As for Emma, she was asked one day if the church was true. She answered yes it was but she wished it wasn't. Why would she say that? Because she endured trials you and I cannot understand or comprehend. Just like all the witnesses who held the gold plates, many of which left the church, some bitter to the church, they never, ever denied they had seen and touched the plates. What did they have to gain after they left the church? (next)
Bill McKeever is an American author and critic of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS Church). He serves with Mormonism Research Ministry (MRM), which he founded in 1979 in El Cajon, California with the hope of informing people about what he perceives as differences between Mormonism and mainline Christianity. His writings are also often focused on the claims of Joseph Smith, the founder and original leader of the Latter Day Saint movement.- Wikipedia
Glad I'm Free from the LDS church
it's insane that people really believe in the religion of Mormonism...
really? I've just joined the church, the members and leaders all seem to be very nice, friendly, honest, humble and sincere
Instructions given to those who take the tourists through Carthage Jail. "Never let the truth get in the way of a good story ".
I couldn't locate the comment of CallMeOptimist to respond to it. It was my experience during my time in the Mormon Church that Joseph was spoken of more than Jesus Christ. But that was not my primary reason for leaving the church, which I eventually saw as not based on the Bible. In fact, many core Mormon beliefs, such as eternal marriage, baptism for the dead, multiple levels of heaven for different levels of believers, and the belief that man can become a god are contradictory to the sound doctrine of the Bible.
Joseph was a human being, being a prophet doesn't make him perfect or sinless, we all know that many prophets in the bible did in fact commit sins and they were punished for that. Joseph Smith, like everyone else will be accountable for what he did good or bad. I don't see how being a human being disqualify him from being a prophet of God, I know that there are sins that are very serious and cannot be easily forgiven.
Your portrayal of the history is not quite accurate. There is no indication in the historical record that Joseph Smith was "furious" about the Expositor as is claimed in this video. He was however, terrified that by publishing this information prematurely that certain angry mobs would attack again as had previously occurred.
The lawful and orderly destruction of the Printing Press was a result of a vote by the Nauvoo City Council, not Joseph Smith. This was a perfectly legal action at the time, to preserve the peace and avoid further violence that the city council feared that the Expositor would generate.
Mormons make no claim as the the reasons why polygamy was practiced. The reasons were diverse, and no single marriage was the same. To state that all polygamous marriages were to raise up seed is an over generalization of a very complex issue. The sealings of the 10 women who were already married were not sexual relationships. After being sealed these women continued to live with their own husbands. Women were given the right to choose to whom they would be sealed.
One woman was 14 years of age, however this was not unheard of in the US in the 1800s. Nine percent of marriages that occurred in the 1800s to teens, were to men who were 35 years of age.
Is it really relevant that Joseph Smith was carrying a pistol for his personal protection? Not really. Joseph was not carrying a smuggled gun into Carthage because technically he was not supposed to be a prisoner. It does not in any way make his death any less of a martyr attempting to defend himself. I wonder if any of the Early Christian martyrs fought back? Would that matter? Of course not, and they did fight back. The whole basis for this ridiculous argument: that Joseph Smith fighting back somehow diminishes the Early Christian martyrs, is based entirely on your negative feelings toward Smith and probably the church in general.
By the way, it is not implausible that the guards would let in an assassin since the guards were Carthage Grays and were a hostile militia force, you failed to mention that little tidbit of information.
The Word of Wisdom was enforced differently in the 19th century than today. Observance of the Word of Wisdom has changed over time, due to on-going revelation from modern-day prophets, who put greater emphasis on certain elements of the revelation originally given to Joseph Smith. Early Latter-day Saints were not under the same requirements as today's Saints are. The saints at the time of Joseph Smith only forbid drinking of strong drinks. Wine was not forbidden if it was used in careful moderation.
The endowment ceremony was created prior to Joseph becoming a mason, not after.
Oh please... Your attempt to paint the church as untrustworthy for not emphasizing certain points of its history is extraordinarily hypocritical. Every religious organization, that actually has a history that is, does the same thing because the spiritual truths are not dependent upon knowing weather or not Joseph Smith had a gun. Do you talk about the points of doctrine that incited the Salem Witch Trials during church meetings? Of course not. And it is foolish to hold the LDS church to that unreasonable standard. There are some things that are simply not relevant for the context of the situation. This hardly constitutes "airbrushing", since a lot of this information came from books published by the church, as you yourself admit.
In any case, after the destruction of the Press Joseph Smith was arrested for inciting a riot against the press.
13 June 1844
The Nauvoo municipal court released Joseph on a writ of habeas corpus, finding that the charge of “riot” was unsubstantiated since the destruction of the press had been orderly.
14 June 1844
Thus cleared, Joseph Smith (as mayor) took his seat as judge over the municipal court, and cleared all others charged the day following his own release. This recurrent mix of religious, executive, and judicial power again infuriated the anti-Mormons.
17 June 1844
Joseph and others consented to be brought before another court, headed by a (then non-Mormon) justice of the peace, Daniel H. Wells. Wells again discharged them, but did not have the authority to acquit them.
18 June 1844
Joseph Smith declares martial law in Nauvoo and calls out the militia to protect the city from anti-Mormon mobs.
22 June 1844
Governor Ford writes to tell Joseph that he must face charges before the same judge that issued the writ for his arrest, because only this will appease the public. This requires Joseph to appear in a very hostile community, where feelings against the Mormons run high.
23 June 1844
Joseph and Hyrum leave Nauvoo to seek refuge over the Mississippi. Some members appeal to Joseph to return, believing (contrary to Joseph’s promise) that the members of the Church would be despoiled and driven out if he did not. Joseph agrees to return, stating, “If my life is of no value to my friends it is of none to myself.”
Governor Ford guaranteed the safety of Joseph and others if they went to Carthage
25 June 1844
the state governor (Thomas Ford) believed that only a state trial would calm the furor over the Expositor. Joseph and fifteen others therefore received guarantees of safety and presented themselves in Carthage. They were freed on bail pending the October arrival of the circuit court. However, Joseph and Hyrum were jailed by a writ issued by Robert F. Smith, a Methodist minister, justice of the peace, and captain of the Carthage Greys militia. Joseph and Hyrum were accompanied to the jail by John Taylor, Willard Richards, Dan Jones, Stephen Markham, and John S. Fullmer. The latter three left to run errands, and were not readmitted, leaving only Joseph, Hyrum, John Taylor, and Willard Richards.
26 June 1844
Governor Ford meets with the prisoners. He then disbands all the militia companies, except the hostile Carthage Greys.
Governor Ford left the hostile Carthage Greys to guard the jail.
27 June 1844
Ford leaves for Nauvoo, leaving two companies of Carthage Greys to guard the jail, while Ford takes a third to Nauvoo. He did not keep his promise that the prisoners could go with him to Nauvoo. After Ford’s departure, the discharged Warsaw militia company attacked the jail. The Carthage Greys gave only token resistance; they had loaded their weapons with gunpowder but no bullets. The Warsaw company stormed the jail, and murdered Joseph and Hyrum. John Taylor was severely injured; Willard Richards was unharmed.
en.fairmormon.org/Question:_What_is_the_timeline_of_events_that_led_to_Joseph_Smith%27s_death_in_Carthage%3F
This version makes MUCH more sense than the BS story they taught us in Sunday School . . .
They were trying with all of their might to keep that door shut to prevent their own murders. Joseph used that gun only after hyrum was murdered and the gravity of the situation was obvious, the intent of the mob was murder. He shot 3 bullets through the door, allegedly killing 2 of the mob and wounding a third. That part of killing 2 men was heresay but if true is understandable in the circumstances.(next)
I'm only about half way through this.. But I just have to say.. He firmly believes that Tanner said that Joseph had a gun and shot three men, but completely doubts and doesn't believe at all that Hyrum said "I'm a dead man" as he's falling, as per what Tanner said he said. . Why so Public and believing one thing he said and not another? More picking and choosing. Also.. He said "I know for a fact that I saw the blood stain framed on the floor.. I saw a picture of it." So laughable. Really? That proof wouldn't stand anywhere... That he saw a picture of it. And anyone with any sense would know it was most likely Hyrum's. I should have been writing down all of the other ridiculous things I've been hearing him talking about .. So funny how people just glom on to this stuff.
There are so many half truths it's ridiculous.
The history of this church... Good or bad.. Has No Effect on whether the Book of Mormon Is True. People are people.. I have read the Book of Mormon 4 tines... There is NO Way a single man just sat down and wrote this. Go read it for yourself... With a Sincere Heart.. Truthfully seeking for yourself.. Honestly seeking God's spirit to be with you so you'll know if it's true or not... Go ahead and read it. What are you afraid of? Go to www.mormon.org and get a free copy sent to you.. Read it..All of it.. And then ask God yourself if it's true. By the Power of the Holy Ghost you may know the truth of all things.
The Book of Mormon Is True. It's an account of a people, a nation that lived here on this content hundreds of years before Christ's birth. In this record are accounts of these people. Prophets told of the coming of the Savior's Birth. They were given the signs of His birth.. And signs of His death. They believed and we're persecuted... After the Savior's death He visited these people.. And there's an account of it in this book.
We believe the Bible.. We use it side by side with our Book of Mormon. We Love the scriptures.. All of them.
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is Jesus Christ's Restored church.. Read the Book of Mormon.. And find out for yourself.
I will not engage in any negative replies.. Just check what spirit is within you before you reply.. Is it dark and angry?? Then it's not from God.
No "temple" was ever in my heart--at least for the last 10 years when I resigned my LDS membership.
There are a lot better ways to spend 25 million than on gaudy looking temples--Christ-like ways--temples that stand virtually vacant (except in Utah)--temples where the leadership has to BEG members to go.
Truly a sick situation.
A lot of Mormon history is altered when taught to members and investigators, or is not taught at all. In the Mormon church, members are warned to avoid all literature/arguments given that goes against church teachings, saying that it's a tool of Satan and will tear down their spirit. It goes without saying that this makes giving people the truth very difficult.
So Joseph Smith and his brother had guns. What is the point? They were prisoners in great physical jeopardy. Smith never represented himself or his religion to be pacifists. He never renounced the right of self-defense. There are a great many things to question about Smith, but I just don’t see this as being one of them.
What is not disputed is that a mob of about 200 men stormed a jail where 4 men who were AWAITING trial.
The killed (murdered) two of them, one of who was completely unarmed and wounded another before they stood trial.
So really where do your sympathies and allegiances lie - with a mob willing to murder men without a trial, including some who had not even been accused, or a group of 4 men who had recently sung "A Poor Wayfaring Man of Grief"
LDS scripture says, "Joseph Smith...has done more, save Jesus...for the salvation of men in this world than any other man...(D. & C. 135:3).
Brigham said, "No man or woman in this dispensation will ever enter the celestial kingdom of God without the consent of Joseph Smith...He holds the keys...for the last dispensation" (JoD Vol. VII, p. 289).
Church News: "No man/woman...will ever enter the celestial kingdom of God without the consent of Joseph Smith" Church News, November 2, 1968, p. 14.
Thank you so much for clearly describing the character of Joseph Smith. He was not the sanctified figure they want to believe he was. I was a member during my teen years, until I realized that the church worshiped Joseph more than they did Jesus. Oh yes, today there are more attempts to make it seem mainstream. But it has a rotten foundation.
I have no problem with Joseph Smith trying to defend himself and his friends with a pistol, and I agree that church historians should acknowledge it. If that negates his status as a "martyr," then that term has no meaning.
It's not very fair or accurate to characterize what transpired at Carthage jail as a "gun fight". Attempting to win a dispute by gunning down your opponent before he guns you down is fundamentally different from getting rushed and brutalized by an angry mob (that outnumbers you by a ratio of 50 to 1), even if you manage to fire off a few self defense rounds first.
Indeed he does.
I studied and searched and prayed.
And God led me OUT of Mormonism.
And He's leading over 100,000 Mormons per year OUT of that corporate church--a business PRETENDING to be a religion.
I'm not addressing the issue of whether exercising your right to self defense disqualifies you from being a martyr. I'm saying the term "gunfight" isn't very descriptive of the actual event and can be misleading to those unfamiliar with the facts. It's much more accurate to say that Joseph died at the hands of an angry mob while awaiting trail than to glibly say that he died in a gunfight. Yes, they both fired guns, but it was so one sided that it wasn't a "fight" in any meaningful way.
You should approach everything with an open mind and do your own research besides just following blindly and then come to your own conclusions. Not saying this guy knows what he is talking about. As a Mormon, I find it interesting how many of us think it is ok to condemn and judge just because they don't agree or believe the same as Mormons. Just as bad as the anti Mormons are for attacking the Church. Get over it and practice what you preach.
The full, true story of Joseph Smith's death planted the seed that grew into a wedge that drove me out of the LDS Church after ten active years. If they had been honest and forthright from the beginning it would not have been a problem. I didn't leave my church because of an incident in 1844, I left because I was actively being misled.
Mormonism is not Christianity.
The smuggled gun is no secret. You will find the story and a picture of it in the LDS Church's institute manual - the book they use to teach young single adults about Church History.
You can find it here www.lds.org/bc/content/shared/content/english/pdf/language-materials/32502_eng.pdf?lang=eng at page 281.
That makes me think. I don't like sanitized history.
Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's. clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
eag11e
What is the reference for that Joeism? ("...catch me if you can")
It sounds familar to me but can't place where it came from. Thanks.
"Those who live by the sword will die by the sword."
Smith sent out a mob to attack others who were dissidents against Smith. He used the police power to persecute those who were criticizing HIS abuses of power. For this act of violence & tyranny he was arrested. While being held for his terrible crimes, he is in turn attacked by such a mob. A mob which was arroused by there fear of Smith's Nauvoo Legion, whihc had been used in the earlier act of violence. A wretched sordid story.
Joseph Smith's life speaks for itself - the historic record is clear and fair. There is no need to tell anything but the truth according to the historic record of the day.
Great video... you can't hide the truth and try to validate lies because the truth always comes out.
If you want to know anything about Mormonism, as an ex-Mormon, we will tell you all you need to know.
i'm just curious, how well does smyth do with the test of the prophets in Deuteronomy 18;21-22 does he fail bad or just a little bit i mean being someone who prophesied a lot of fake stuff like the temple in missouri and all the rest of the stuff he said god said would happen and never did. the cult says he was a prophet and a martyr but killing and lying just makes him a criminal and an adulterer right?
How can any lover of truth not LIKE this video??? Bill McKeever is wonderful! I want to give it TWO thumbs up!!!!
I am coming to the knowledge that something is not right with what the church teaches about the history of the church. However, I’ve wondered if something just went amiss after Joseph died? I feel like Brigham changed and doctored s lot of Joseph’s journals and the D&C. My question is, do you have hard evidence that Joseph actually married all these women he is accused of marrying? Or did Brigham, John Taylor, and others change this history after Joseph died?
"And ye shall know THE TRUTH, and
THE TRUTH shall make you free."
John 8:32
Instead of praying about the BOM and feeling that it's true (burning bosom) I tested it against the Bible. What I found was that whoever wrote the BOM unknowingly copied some KJV translation errors into it's text.
The 1611 KJV translators made some translation errors. Whoever wrote the BOM plagiarized extensively from the KJV and unknowingly copied some of its translation errors into the BOM text (often times verbatim). This proves the BOM is not the ancient record Smith claimed it to be.
@eag11e Decoded, it reads: “I was taken in to the lodge J Smith was Agness”. The abbreviation “was” means “wedded and sealed”. This marriage was kept a secret. Again, this marriage took place without the required consent of Emma. It also, took place 2 full years before joe wrote his revelation commanding polygamy. Another side note is that Agnes was only 33 years old. Despite some that would characterize joe's wifes as "old spinsters". Clarissa Marvel reveled to Emma the secret marriage.
I love History. :) It helps with the words of Jesus, (There will be false prophets and false teachers and will deceive many) Thank you Jesus for warning us. :)
This is an awesome video!! Thank you for posting this.
Joseph Smith had been persecuted, tarred and feathered, beaten, many times since he was 14 (he died at the age of 38. He never wavered from his dedication to God.
The glass blood stain with the frame WAS there. I remember that story emphatically from my visit to Carthage.
A lot of people need this knowledge. Thank-you.
In the end everyone will know the truth of Joseph Smith, it was told by the Saviour that both good and bad would be said of His prophet Joseph Smith. Truth shall prevail.
"We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience and allow all men the same privilege. Let them worship how, where or what they may." Joseph Smith
"The world owes me a good living and if I cannot get it without, I'll steal it and catch me at it if you can." - old white hat, joe smith
Wednesday, March 16. - I was with the Masonic Lodge and rose to the sublime degree. (History of the Church, Vol.4, Ch.32, p.552)- joseph smith
I agree, it's even in the Primary Sunday School manual (for kids 4-7) or at least it was when I taught primary a couple of years ago.
You're preaching to the choir on Joe's imperfections.
If he were perfect he wouldn't have made up 4 or 5 differing versions of the "First Vision". (Since there were, you have to ask yourself if he actually had ANY vision.)
A perfect man wouldn't be messing with little girls or other men's wives.
A perfect man wouldn't lie to his wife about his polygamy.
A perfect man wouldn't set up a fraudulent bank, causing his friends to lose their savings, nor would he pretend to know the Egyptian language.
I do family history & the men, some being Kings, married young girls. Up to the 1800's the men were 20 to 10 years older than the women. It's a fact. My mother & one sister married at the age of 15. They were not Mormons.
This is a brilliant insightful video - Thankyou for making it
Objection1: The title is false and ironic. The story of the death of Joseph Smith at Carthage has been well-documented. There were numerous witnesses of the events before, at, and after Carthage jail events.
Mr. McKeever re-tells the story of the death of Joseph Smith the way he - the ardent anti-Mormon - wants it to be told. But Mr. McKeever's story is NOT what the eye-witnesses have written and testified.
I wanted to get in the waters but after doing some research . I changed my mind mathew 24:11 and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people
Compare Smith to Muhammed....
Thank you for this. I am most grateful for your calm presentation of the facts as you have found them. Not as the church portrays.
I was there a month ago and there was no attempt at concealing the guns when I was given the tour.
Yes, if you look you will notice this video is 16 YEARS old. Things have changed since the Internet has brought all of this information to light. The church must admit to these details. When I visited 20 years ago nothing was mentioned about it.
As I've said before, it is most accurately characterized as a ruthless murder at the hands of a lynch mob. Attempting to defend yourself or loved ones against the threat of death or serious bodily injury doesn't turn a lynching into a fight. They may share many of the same technical elements, including mutual hostility and violence, but they are different concepts. It is just as intellectually dishonest to say Joseph died in a gunfight as it is to say he was martyred without mentioning his gun.
"The world owes me a good living and if I cannot get it without, I'll steal it and catch me at it if you can."
joe smith, "old white hat"
with all due respect why do you waste time and resourses to discredit the Mormon church or their Prophets instead of doing good for others, disclaimer I am a lds member and nothing can shake my faith. If your faith is so strong why would you dedicate so much into our church?
which books or research do you suggest. I am happy to learn anything. If you know some thing I don;t I want to know. Good Lord this should be interesting as their is not even a concensus on the Holy Bible
I believe his pepperbox pistol and the derringer if I remember right is on display at the church museum in salt lake city. I saw it, and Ive heard the story about Joseph shooting at the mob. Why does that mean he was not a martyr?
I've heard the basics of that story before, but I learned a few new details. Very good discussion, thank you. Another detail that I think is important is that while Joseph Smith publicly declared that famous 'lamb to the slaughter' quote, he secretly ordered the Navoo Legion to march to Carthage to bust him out. He was so confident of his own safety that when someone mentioned the approaching mob, he said not to worry, it's only the Navoo Legion come to free me.
The June 2013 issue of the Ensign magazine, p. 40 (The LDS church's official magazine) has a painting the depicts the murder of Joseph Smith. It shows Joseph, Hyrum, and Willard Richards leaning against the door with A PISTOL IN JOSEPH'S POCKET. That should pretty much debunk the ridiculous theory that the Church is somehow trying to suppress the fact that Joseph discharged a weapon during the martyrdom--which, by the way, I've known since I was 15 years old.
I as I stated before, joe smith was no martyr. His wife described his last act of fleeing the law as Cowardice. If his wife, who was there present at the time describes him as a Coward....Who am I, or you for that matter, to dispute it? I believe her....joe smith was indeed a coward and died trying to defend himself in a gun fight he initiated. Many people were happy when he died! His character was vile and immoral!
Okay, I have a question that may stir up some interest.......... If Joseph was displaying the masonic sign and the bullets he was shot by interrupted his attempt to finish his sentence of "O Lord my God"............... is there no help for the widows son." should we also make the assumption that Joseph would have known who the mob/men were, and that they too were Freemasons and would recognize the sign and the wording of the sign. If this is true, then Freemasons could have shot and killed Joseph. Freemasons would be breaking their oath to come to the aid of a brother. I personally believe that Freemasons and others wanted Joseph dead. They were nervous that Joseph would change Freemasonry. Others were nervous Joseph would run for President and win. Change slavery and religious tolerance across the Nation. He would also bring to light Manifest Destiny and Discovery Doctrine giving legal means for the land to be rightfully brought back to the Native American. Joseph and The Book of Mormon taught that Native Americans had Israelite ancestry and if they were of a Judeo-Christian ancestry, the use of Manifest Destiny and Discovery Doctrine would be illegal and so all the land would need to be returned to it's rightful owner, The Native First Nations. Freemasonry and American Greed were never going to allow this to happen. The sale of America was a scam but you hear nothing of this. In The Book of Mormon Jesus prophesy's of the land being returned to the remnant of Israel (3Nephi chapters 20-22) or in other words The Natives of North America. Joseph's enemies would have been very nervous. (Motive) The Book of Mormon teaches against secret combinations and the Murder of Joseph was certainly a secret combination.
Anyone who has studied the Bible should be aware that the ancient apostles and prophets were human beings with faults just like everyone else. While they do help illustrate his humanity, none of the points made in this video about Joseph Smith would disqualify him from being a prophet of God. Just because this guy in the video has a romanticized perception of early Christian martyrs does not mean that they were actually any different than Joseph Smith.
+Kevin Butler Can you think of any early Christians commonly called "martyrs" that killed others in the attempt to save their own life? We can empathize with a man's self-defense, but it doesn't fit the martyrdom narrative.
as an ex Mormon, I still question why the witnesses at the time of Joseph Smith swore what they witnessed, to their death just as the disciples did...can you help me with this please.
By the way, Dallin Oaks and Joseph Bentley found the court records that detailed the dealings of the failed Nauvoo Bank, which many anti-Mormons use to tarnish Joseph Smith's reputation. There was no evidence that Joseph did anything dishonest, improper or unethical.
Check your sources! Do some solid research and analysis! Stop your anti-Mormon rantings!
I wonder do you feel the mountain meadows interesting to? You consider those men righteous?
Is it true that Smith shot 3 people, 2 of whom died? Taylor's claim is: "I afterwards understood that two or three were wounded by these discharges, two of whom, I am informed, died." Was Taylor misinformed? As the mob left he was under the bed bleeding from his own wounds and had to be carried out by Willard Richards. He had no firsthand knowledge of the fate of anyone in the mob. The three injured have been named as John Wills, William Voras and (maybe) William Gallaher. Go ahead and try to find any information about any of those three men. Where did they come from? When did they die? Where were they buried? I'd love to see any documentation about their lives if you can find it. I consider it quite historically unlikely that Smith killed anyone in his final moments.
everyone in prison is innocent. Just ask them. IT WAS A BIG MISTAKE------ and you made it.
I asked God to reveal the truth or falsity of Mormonism to me, sincerely and with real intent, and was told to leave it as it was NOT His Church. I did.
I've heard that Joseph Smith had a gun. I don't see why this makes a difference. The truth always makes a better story.
Riley Hinds Yes I heard the prison guards though bad for him because so many men coming against him one actually gave him a weapon to help defend himself. I would have done the same thing!
Objection 8, etc: These few objections come only from the first 5 min of McKeever's deceiving presentation.
For those of you who truly desire to know the real truth about Joseph Smith, his character, and, MORE IMPORTANTLY, about the Gospel of Jesus Christ, which God commissioned Joseph to restore, please, turn to countless credible, authentic, first-witness accounts, histories and documents of those PRO-Mormon, who knew and loved Joseph Smith, The Prophet.
Great video. Seems like he was objective in his historical research.
Joseph Smith did NOT practice polygamy he was good at it
this man is reasonable
the mormons not so
Isn't a "martyr" Someone who dies WILLINGLY for a cause?
If I had seen God, and Christ himself (as Smith claims to have had seen them in a vision) I would have let the mob take me freely with my hands held apart so the bullet's wouldn't miss my heart... not with a six-shooter in my hands... guns- a-blazing.
That's a perfect response, eileen.
If there is only ONE thing a Real Prophet should be (or even a wannabe-conman prophet) it would be to at LEAST APPEAR to be a person of integrity.
Joseph Smith was anything BUT a man of integrity.
I feel a bit sensitive about pointing out someone elses weaknesses, because I am no saint either. But neither do I claim to be a Prophet of God.
Exodus 3:14 - And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.
John 14:6 - Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
John 15:5 - I am the vine, ye [are] the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing
It's a shame the revolver misfired three times. He could have taken out three more of those pieces of crap.
Something just occurred to me…I feel really slooow intellectually that I’ve never thought of it before….were JS and Hiram not wearing their garments? I thought they were meant to be bullet proof.
The fact that the adversary has to lead men to create an organization that talks down a prophet of God should tell you something about the truth of this Gospel.
Anyone who would like a great, relatively objective research on Joseph Smith, should read "Rough Stone Rolling" by Richard Lyman Bushman.
The church doesn't hide the fact that Joseph had a gun, go to the church history museum in Salt Lake City and see the very gun Joseph Smith had publicly on display for everyone to see and it states that states right on the sign by the gun the "gun was smuggled in". This guy says Joseph went out in a gun battle. Some gun battle, one .32 caliber piece of junk pepperbox pistol that has less power than todays .22, a single shot percussion cap gun (that was never used) and two walking sticks against 100 to 200 .60 caliber muskets. These men came with the sole purpose of killing Joseph and Hyrum Smith, they were murdered in cold blood. John Taylor did say that he did hear that two men died from the gun that Joseph had but nobody knows who they were and there is no proof of it. I don't care if you don't like what the Mormon church teaches but this guy is twisting things just like he accuses the church of doing. Why do you people like it so much time tearing down the Mormons? If we want to believe it what is it to you? Spend your time serving Christ and His children, study His words. Love like He loved.
That's great that they don't hide it anymore. But they did.
Outlaw, Dr. Mike Quinn was one of the "September Six" who was excommunicated from the LDS Church. Do you know who the "September Six" are? Of all the Mormon historians Dr. Michael D. Quinn is very likely the most knowledgeable historian of Mormon history who is living.
Hello brother, Peace of Christ, it's been a while, what's new? :)
Odd...my Church History class mentioned the smuggled guns. And I do believe they are on display in Carthage Jail...
Glad to hear that they published this in June 2013. One hopes it is the beginning of a new pattern of open, explicit historical truth-telling. But surely you can see that this hasn't been the pattern in the past, and that the rest of us are still holding out. For example: will the truth-telling be so clear and consistent so as to meaningfully impact the common members? Will these things become common knowledge among LDS members? Take care.
Thanks for sharing Truth with our mormon friends! ........:)
Is Mountain Meadow a sacred mormon site by any chance?
Interesting how the propaganda piece " prophet of the reformation" completely ignores all this
Thank you for your work. I pray this will turn people to faith in the real Jesus Christ.
"The world owes me a good living and if I cannot get it without, I'll steal it and catch me at it if you can." - joe smith, ref. joseph smith's history vault, Wilhelm Ritter von Wymetal, (SLC: Tribune Printing & Pub., 1886)
married Sylvia’s mother, Joseph Smith number 10th, Sylvia thought why would she wanted to marry Joseph? But Braham Young taught that if a man was willing to give her and the man was willing to take her, there is no bill of divorced required, that is right before God, that the woman would be in a higher celestial kingdom if she did accept the proposal. At Sylvia’s dead pent she told her daughter that she was the prophets daughter and not Windsor her father that she grow up with. (next)
Dude, thanks for speaking the truth.