👉🏻 Download the FREE GUIDE: “Best Questions to Ask in Law Firm Interviews": launch.angelavorpahl.com/best-questions-to-ask-visit This is Video 1 of 4 of the "How to Get a BigLaw Job" video series!! Is there anything you guys wanted to know about 1L grades that wasn't in the video??
Im considering a school ranked 108 (so close to being tier 2 lol). Long story short is that its my dream school but they did not give me much of a scholarship. I told myself that if ill be in that much debt (120) ill try to do big law right out of it. Looks like that will be a lot harder than I previously thought.
Hi LR! The table is definitely a generalization, and there are some law schools in the U.S. that are "unicorn" law schools in that they are located in a city with a strong legal market and there aren't a lot of (or any other) law schools in the area to compete against. It's also the case that "biglaw" is defined differently in different cities, depending on the size of the largest law firms located in the area. A couple of things you can do to get a better sense for how high in the 1L class ranking you would need to be in order to compete for biglaw jobs at this law school are: (i) ask the career services office what the grade cutoffs are that the law firms who come to campus for 2L OCI have historically asked for in the past few years; and (ii) google some of the biglaw firms in the area and run a search through their "lawyers" for 1st-3rd year associates who have graduated from your same law school and reach out and do informational interviews with them to ask how the hiring process was for them in law school to start their career at that law firm. That will give you more concrete data!
Does the ranking of your law school also indicate the level of difficulty for your law school? For example since Harvard law is a top 3 school and penn state law is a tier 1 school, Does that mean Harvard law is much more difficult than penn state?
The reality is that all 1L law students in every law school across the country take the exact same courses (Contracts, Torts, Property, Civil Procedure, Criminal Law, Legal Research and Writing, Constitutional Law, etc.), so the material you'll be learning at every law school is the same. That being said, the difficulty level changes by law school because you'll be graded on a curve and will therefore be competing against your classmates for the top grades in every class. And while the competition is stiff in every law school (because of that zero sum reality), arguably your competition will be greater in a T14 law school versus a Tier 4 law school (for example) because of the students you are competing against in your class. Whether the competition varies greatly between law schools ranked so closely to each other is most likely minimal, especially since you have to remember that the factors that go into making the rankings are much more varied (and, at times, political) than just the caliber of the law students. So the level of competitiveness at a law school ranked No. 3 vs. No. 7 is not going to be insanely different -- they'll both be competitive. Another important thing to keep in mind is that the T14 law schools have a tendency towards protectionism of their law students, in that they tell them not to put GPAs or class rankings on their resumes with the idea that ALL of their law students are highly qualified and law firms should be happy to hire any one of their graduates. Because of this, there is somewhat of an informal understanding that once you make it into a T14 law school you don't really have to get great grades to still be competitive for a good job, so there could definitely be a tendency of some law students to not fight as hard for good grades at a T14 law school as opposed to a more regional law school where your grades are a huge determining factor in whether you get a job.
Nice video! Greetings from Vienna, Austria. Here, the first 2 semesters are not so important, grades are only very important from the third semester onwards.
@@AngelaVorpahl In the first year, you only do the basics. You also learn a lot of history, philosophy, roman law etc.. Only from the third semester onwards you study the „real“ stuff, like civil law etc. (law school takes here 4 years) Of course, it is advantageous to have good grades in the first year, but it is more important in the second and third years. And most law firms only take student who are at least in the 4th semester.
Hi Kimberly! Check out this video on the process for international students/foreign-trained lawyers looking to practice law in the U.S. th-cam.com/video/bSwQeARyEKM/w-d-xo.html Are you looking to get a JD or LLM degree, or potentially both?
Often I come across articles about misery in the legal profession. A lawyer once remarked to me, “All lawyers hate their jobs.” Do law school students not know what they’re getting themselves into? It’s not like it’s a secret.
BigLaw does not specialize only in corporate law, but it does specialize almost exclusively in civil law that attracts large clients, since they are the only ones that can afford to pay the BigLaw legal fees. The closest thing to criminal law that some BigLaw firms do is white collar criminal defense, which is mainly representing large banks against things like SEC violations. Some BigLaw firms have immigration practice groups that do things like process work visas for large companies' international employees, but wouldn't take on inidividual immigration matters. That being said, you could take on individual immigration matters pro bono if you wanted, and some BigLaw firms will informally count your pro bono hours towards your "billable hours" total up to a maximum per year (like 150 hours).
Deciding between Berkeley and Duke. Both ranked similarly in the US rankings so just want to get an your opinion on what is the general perception on these 2 schools and which one carries more weight. (Btw looking to work in NY after graduation). Also love your vids!! Lots of love from a subscriber from England❤️
Hi, Iam! What an awesome decision to be making! Both are incredibly amazing law schools, so you won't go wrong with either. I'm actually just dropped a video today about how to choose a law school, if you want to check it out (th-cam.com/video/_eTI6K76fds/w-d-xo.html). While Berkeley probably has a SLIGHTLY more prestigious reptuation than Duke, things I would think about in making your decision are (1) where geographically in the U.S. you would like to work after graduation (I have no doubt Berekely law grads are more competitive on the West Coast thank Duke law grads); (2) how much is tuition at each school vs. how much scholarship money are they offering you (and/or can you negotiate to get); and (3) if you have a particular employer in mind that you want to work for check out their attorney profile page, search by law school, and see if that employer has more junior lawyers coming from Berkeley or Duke. Those are the factors that I would use to ultimately make my decision!
@@AngelaVorpahl Haha just saw the video and it was almost like a it's tailor made for people in dilemma like myself. It's great to know there are no wrong choices cos the last thing I want is Iooking back years from now and saying I should've gone to Berkeley or a Duke.
@@lammichael767 Oh no, not at all! Those are both excellent schools and you're going to have awesome job opportunities and alumni connections no matter which one you choose :)
Which did you choose. I'm in North Carolina & would go with Duke if your goal is to work in NYC. Many Duke students are from that area and go to work in NY.
If you’re comfortable, I would love to understand how you ranked. If I am not mistaken you went to a regional University that isn’t in the t14, but have done extremely well. Having your context would be help and provide real life practice.
Hi, Mascio! I was shooting for the top 10% of the class because that was the highest percentage cut-off reported by the law school. My first semester 1L year was lower than I hoped, decently outside the top 10%. My second semester 1L year was much stronger, but still left me just outside the top 10%. So I took a summer school course, got an A, and that bumped me into the top 10% of the class in time for OCI interviews at the beginning of my 2L year. At the time, SMU Law was ranked No. 49/50, and even in the midst of the economic recession, the BigLaw firms were hiring those within the top 15% of the class :)
Hey Angela! 😊 Can u plz show light on how an internatinal student who doesn't have a jd from the usa can work in these fancy big law firms.. Do LLM from USA will really help secure such jobs?
I want to do corporate law. Ideally looking for BL for a while because it gives you so much more opportunity with your law career afterward. As I am paying for law school on my own and have seat deposits coming up, it is hard to decide where to go. I'm a reverse splitter (Summa Cum Laude undergrad with double major and two minors), with a decent LSAT. What are your opinions on Cardozo Law? I got 50% scholarship there and have been considering it. I also got into the University of Miami at full sticker price and a full ride to Nova Southeastern University (a tier 4 school). Just want some advice from someone in BL in NY!
Hi Sam! First of all, huge congratulations on all of your acceptances, that's so exciting!! Deciding where to go to law school can definitely be tough, but I'll give here are my go-to factors to think about in making your decision: 1. Where do you want to live/work when you graduate law school? You'll be most competitive for jobs in the city where you go to law school. 2. What are the actual numbers for how much you'd spend for each of the law schools you're considering when you factor in tuition, scholarships, and cost of living (e.g. rent). 3. What are the employment statistics for that law school. The ABA requires all law schools to report these numbers, so you can see what percentage of the latest class got full-time JD jobs within 10 months of graduation and in which sectors (e.g. biglaw). 4. [BONUS: What are the average starting salaries vs. cost of living for the city where you're going to law school (to give you the comparative buying power index): www.nalp.org/class_of_2020_buying_power_index] 5. [BONUS: Ask the law school career services department which law firms come to campus for on-campus interviewing, and (if they'll tell you), what are the usual class ranking cutoffs these law firms usually look for?] If they won't give you this information, another way to get at it is by googling biglaw firms in the city, searching the law firm's website by law school, and seeing how many 1st to 3rd year associates from your potential law school are working there. Let me know if this helps! Angela P.S. In answer to your question, Cardozo is a great school, and all else being equal, I'm a huge fan of minimizing your law school debt as much as possible so that you can open up as many options as possible when you graduate (and reach financial freedom much faster).
Ms. Vorpahl; was your law school a tier 1 or tier 2? If it was tier 2 or lower, how did you manage to get a big law law firm position in New York? We’re you first in your class?
My law school was right on the cusp between Tier 1 and Tier 2 -- I went to SMU Law and at the time it was ranked No. 50. I ultimately graduated top 5 in my class, but at the time of OCI interviews, I wasn't as high as that -- I was somewhere in the top 10%. During OCI, I accepted a job with a Dallas law firm that had several offices around the country (one of which was in NYC), and then clerked for a judge the year after law school. When it was time to begin working for the firm after the clerkship, I asked if I could start in the NYC office instead of the Dallas office and they agreed! That transition isn't incredibly common (particularly right of the bat), but it definitely can happen, so make sure you take a look at all the places that the law firm has offices in case you want to try and make a case for a transfer at some point :)
Hi! I was wondering if going to a law school that is low tier but is ranked high in the type of law you want to practice would still be good if you wanted to work in big law? I want to become a medical lawyer and the school has a highly ranked program but the overall rank is low.
Hi Brittney! The rank of the law school can definitely be important, but even more important than the rank is the law school's positioning in the legal market of the city where it's located and the overall strength of the legal market in that city. For example, I went to SMU Law in Dallas, TX. Even though SMU Law was ranked No. 50, it was the only law school in Dallas at the time and Dallas has a really strong legal market, so there were a lot of biglaw firms that recruited at SMU. Ways to find out (i) the strength of the legal market in that city and (ii) the relative positioning of the law school in that market, is to check out the employment stats for that law school and see what percentage of students got jobs in big law firms (google "law school X employment stats"). You can also reach out to the career services department and ask them which law firms traditionally recruit on campus (and see if they will give you a number or at least some names). A third way to find out is by doing some googling to find the biggest law firms in that city (you can also filter on NALP), check out the attorneys page, and search by your law school to see if there are any junior associates that graduated from your law school (i.e. to find evidence that the firm recently recruited from that law school). In some cities there aren't any traditionally "big" law firms per se, but there still may be law firms that are big players in that city and still have large institutional clients and pay 6-figure salaries to first year associates. You may just need to do some digging to find out if that's the case. Let me know if this helps! Angela P.S. I also run a free FB group for law students and prelaw students looking for clarity and support in their law school journey. Would you like the link to be able to join? :)
Hi! This definitely applies to Canadian law students attending U.S. law schools, but since my expertise is U.S. law firm hiring I'm not familiar enough with the Canadian legal system to be able to tell you how Canadian law firms hire their entry-level associates!
Interesting question. You would still be eligible to drop your resume to apply to participate in OCI, but it will be tough to qualify with grades from a different law school. It may be the case that you have to wait a year, kick butt grade-wise your 2L year, and come back and drop your resume as a 3L.
@@AngelaVorpahl Angela is right. The good firms don't give a damn about your grades from some Tier 2 law school. Yawn. Let's see how you do now against the big boys in Tier 1, or better yet the T-14.
Hi Angela! I love your videos as a prospective law student. I have one question- would you say it is harder to be in the top 15% of a tier 2 than it is to be in the top 40% of a t14 or higher ranked tier 1? I am deciding if I should retake the LSAT, because my GPA is in t14 range but my LSAT so far has fallen under the median scores. I'm trying to decide if I'd be just as well off going to a tier 2 with more money than retaking and going to a higher ranked school with less money
Hi, Aaron! So first I would say that in deciding whether to take the LSAT, I would compare what you scored on test day versus what you've been scoring on your practice LSATs towards the very end of your prep. For example, if you were scoring 170-172 on practice LSATs and scored 160 on test day, then I would consider retaking the LSAT to see if you can get that score up. Of course it depends which law school cycle you're looking to apply to, but if we're talking Fall 2021, then you'd have more than enough time to do another round of LSAT prep and take the LSAT a second time and still be able to apply for early admission to law schools. The reason I would lean into possibly taking the LSAT a second time (if you've only taken it once), is because even if you opt to go to a Tier 2 school (rather than Tier 1 or T14), the higher your LSAT score the more scholarship money you can be offered. With respect to getting into the highest percentiles of your class, the reality is that if you go to a T14 law school you don't really have to be in any certain percentile because no one puts GPAs on their resume and all OCI legal employers have to interview students in a lottery system (rather than choose their preferred candidates). When we get outside of the T14 law schools, and we're talking about scoring in the top 10-15% of your class, that's going to be a lot of hard work and strategy regardless of where you go to law school, but the higher the law school is ranked the more wiggle room you have. I'm not sure what law school cycle you're looking to apply to, but if you're interested in learning more about dominating law school grades I'm putting on a free "Level Up Law School" 3-Day Challenge to help people get prepared for the upcoming law school semester, so stay on the lookout for that!
Given that part-time programs aren't universal to all law schools, I would need to know some more information about your program -- in particular, which law school you are attending, how many students are in your class, and how strong the legal market is in that city. Feel free to DM me on Instagram if you'd prefer to continue the conversation there!
Forget part-time law programs unless you want to work as a waitress at IHOP or maybe a warehouse position paying $15 per hour. Do you think I am kidding?
Good question! And the subject of the next video!! :) The short answer is yes, that is the goal. Some BigLaw firms offer 1L summer clerkships, but all offer 2L summer clerkships and the goal of getting amazing grades your 1L year is to get the latter :)
Hi! To make sure I understand the question, are you asking about grade cut-offs for undergrad or law school? In law school, everyone takes the exact same classes 1L year (Contracts, Torts, Property, Civil Procedure, Criminal Law, Legal Research and Writing, Constitutional Law, etc.), so you won't have the option of taking IP law classes until your 2L or 3L year.
@@nosetackle3929 Ohh gotcha! And yes, I would say that is sometimes the case. I hesitate to say it definitively is true for all BigLaw firms because I don't know if it's widespread enough to be able to generalize accurately. That being said, for smaller or midsized firms looking for IP associates with an EE/CS degree, you have a really good shot at still being competitive with a lower class ranking since it's a much more specific niche that not as many people are qualified to fill. So that's nice :)
Really good question. The majority of law students go straight from college to law school, but because that's the norm law schools look very favorably on people who have real world experience before coming to law school, especially in professional fields where you can develop skills and training that are transferable to being a lawyer. If you're not sure if you want to go to law school, it's a great idea to get professional experience beforehand to give yourself time and real world perspective to help decide whether you want to make the big time and financial investment that law school requires :)
Hi, Mohamed! As Ryan points out below, my answer was in response to whether you should go straight from college to law school (whoops!). Here's my answer for whether you should go straight from law school to a law firm: Most law students' first job out of law school is with a law firm because it's the most natural fit -- law firms are literally a company of lawyers that are hired by other companies and individuals to represent them in legal matters. And so the good thing about working for a law firm as your first step is (1) you will be surrounded by other lawyers that you can learn from, and (2) law firms understand that recent law graduates have almost zero practical experience in the practice of law and are willing to hire you and train you. The other bonuses of working at a law firm as your first legal job are that (3) if you work for a law firm with name recognition that can definitely open doors down the line for you to transfer to other positions (e.g. other law firms, in-house, public sector, non-profit, starting your own law firm), and (4) working for a medium-sized to large law firm is going to pay you more than any other legal job on the market, which a lot of law students opt to take to pay off student loans. So there are a lot of advantages. That being said, if you already have your heart set on a particular practice area or sector of the law that does not involve the law firm route, then I recommend that you follow your gut and pursue that other route. Even though working at a highly respected law firm will give you the opportunity to make career changes down the line, it can still be a tough process to switch sectors and practice areas completely. So if you already know (for example) that you want to work as a criminal prosecutor, by all means definitely go ahead and go do that! It will give you years of experience over anyone coming from another sector 3-4 years down the line who will be starting at the bottom and working their way up.
👉🏻 Download the FREE GUIDE: “Best Questions to Ask in Law Firm Interviews": launch.angelavorpahl.com/best-questions-to-ask-visit
This is Video 1 of 4 of the "How to Get a BigLaw Job" video series!! Is there anything you guys wanted to know about 1L grades that wasn't in the video??
Currently a rising 3L and can’t emphasize enough how important your 1L grades. Especially that first semester. Great video 👍
Thanks so much, Andy!! :)
Yes, sir: grades over buddies. That's the motto.
Hey your videos are really helpful. Thanks for the amazing work you put in.
Aw thanks!! I love hearing when the videos are helpful to people :)
Im considering a school ranked 108 (so close to being tier 2 lol). Long story short is that its my dream school but they did not give me much of a scholarship. I told myself that if ill be in that much debt (120) ill try to do big law right out of it. Looks like that will be a lot harder than I previously thought.
Hi LR! The table is definitely a generalization, and there are some law schools in the U.S. that are "unicorn" law schools in that they are located in a city with a strong legal market and there aren't a lot of (or any other) law schools in the area to compete against. It's also the case that "biglaw" is defined differently in different cities, depending on the size of the largest law firms located in the area.
A couple of things you can do to get a better sense for how high in the 1L class ranking you would need to be in order to compete for biglaw jobs at this law school are: (i) ask the career services office what the grade cutoffs are that the law firms who come to campus for 2L OCI have historically asked for in the past few years; and (ii) google some of the biglaw firms in the area and run a search through their "lawyers" for 1st-3rd year associates who have graduated from your same law school and reach out and do informational interviews with them to ask how the hiring process was for them in law school to start their career at that law firm.
That will give you more concrete data!
Does the ranking of your law school also indicate the level of difficulty for your law school? For example since Harvard law is a top 3 school and penn state law is a tier 1 school, Does that mean Harvard law is much more difficult than penn state?
The reality is that all 1L law students in every law school across the country take the exact same courses (Contracts, Torts, Property, Civil Procedure, Criminal Law, Legal Research and Writing, Constitutional Law, etc.), so the material you'll be learning at every law school is the same. That being said, the difficulty level changes by law school because you'll be graded on a curve and will therefore be competing against your classmates for the top grades in every class. And while the competition is stiff in every law school (because of that zero sum reality), arguably your competition will be greater in a T14 law school versus a Tier 4 law school (for example) because of the students you are competing against in your class.
Whether the competition varies greatly between law schools ranked so closely to each other is most likely minimal, especially since you have to remember that the factors that go into making the rankings are much more varied (and, at times, political) than just the caliber of the law students. So the level of competitiveness at a law school ranked No. 3 vs. No. 7 is not going to be insanely different -- they'll both be competitive.
Another important thing to keep in mind is that the T14 law schools have a tendency towards protectionism of their law students, in that they tell them not to put GPAs or class rankings on their resumes with the idea that ALL of their law students are highly qualified and law firms should be happy to hire any one of their graduates. Because of this, there is somewhat of an informal understanding that once you make it into a T14 law school you don't really have to get great grades to still be competitive for a good job, so there could definitely be a tendency of some law students to not fight as hard for good grades at a T14 law school as opposed to a more regional law school where your grades are a huge determining factor in whether you get a job.
Good tip on there's
Thank you so much for this video - love your work!!
My pleasure! I'm so glad the video was helpful!! Are you currently in interview season right now? :)
Nice video! Greetings from Vienna, Austria. Here, the first 2 semesters are not so important, grades are only very important from the third semester onwards.
That's so interesting! Do you mind if I ask why that is?
@@AngelaVorpahl In the first year, you only do the basics. You also learn a lot of history, philosophy, roman law etc.. Only from the third semester onwards you study the „real“ stuff, like civil law etc. (law school takes here 4 years) Of course, it is advantageous to have good grades in the first year, but it is more important in the second and third years. And most law firms only take student who are at least in the 4th semester.
@@Alexander-fp6yp So cool to hear how law school works in other parts of the world! Thanks so much for sharing!!
Fantastic material!
Thanks so much!! I'm glad it was helpful!!
Hi what about international students?
Hi Kimberly! Check out this video on the process for international students/foreign-trained lawyers looking to practice law in the U.S. th-cam.com/video/bSwQeARyEKM/w-d-xo.html Are you looking to get a JD or LLM degree, or potentially both?
Often I come across articles about misery in the legal profession. A lawyer once remarked to me, “All lawyers hate their jobs.” Do law school students not know what they’re getting themselves into? It’s not like it’s a secret.
I have lots of thoughts on this! Feel free to send me a DM on Instagram (@angelavorpahl) and I can send you a voicenote :)
@@AngelaVorpahl Hi, I’m not on Instagram, however maybe it’s a worthwhile topic to address on YT.
Does big law only specializes in corporate law? I'm more interested in immigration and criminal law
BigLaw does not specialize only in corporate law, but it does specialize almost exclusively in civil law that attracts large clients, since they are the only ones that can afford to pay the BigLaw legal fees. The closest thing to criminal law that some BigLaw firms do is white collar criminal defense, which is mainly representing large banks against things like SEC violations. Some BigLaw firms have immigration practice groups that do things like process work visas for large companies' international employees, but wouldn't take on inidividual immigration matters. That being said, you could take on individual immigration matters pro bono if you wanted, and some BigLaw firms will informally count your pro bono hours towards your "billable hours" total up to a maximum per year (like 150 hours).
Deciding between Berkeley and Duke. Both ranked similarly in the US rankings so just want to get an your opinion on what is the general perception on these 2 schools and which one carries more weight. (Btw looking to work in NY after graduation). Also love your vids!! Lots of love from a subscriber from England❤️
Hi, Iam! What an awesome decision to be making! Both are incredibly amazing law schools, so you won't go wrong with either. I'm actually just dropped a video today about how to choose a law school, if you want to check it out (th-cam.com/video/_eTI6K76fds/w-d-xo.html).
While Berkeley probably has a SLIGHTLY more prestigious reptuation than Duke, things I would think about in making your decision are (1) where geographically in the U.S. you would like to work after graduation (I have no doubt Berekely law grads are more competitive on the West Coast thank Duke law grads); (2) how much is tuition at each school vs. how much scholarship money are they offering you (and/or can you negotiate to get); and (3) if you have a particular employer in mind that you want to work for check out their attorney profile page, search by law school, and see if that employer has more junior lawyers coming from Berkeley or Duke. Those are the factors that I would use to ultimately make my decision!
@@AngelaVorpahl Haha just saw the video and it was almost like a it's tailor made for people in dilemma like myself. It's great to know there are no wrong choices cos the last thing I want is Iooking back years from now and saying I should've gone to Berkeley or a Duke.
@@lammichael767 Oh no, not at all! Those are both excellent schools and you're going to have awesome job opportunities and alumni connections no matter which one you choose :)
Which did you choose. I'm in North Carolina & would go with Duke if your goal is to work in NYC. Many Duke students are from that area and go to work in NY.
If you’re comfortable, I would love to understand how you ranked. If I am not mistaken you went to a regional University that isn’t in the t14, but have done extremely well. Having your context would be help and provide real life practice.
Hi, Mascio! I was shooting for the top 10% of the class because that was the highest percentage cut-off reported by the law school. My first semester 1L year was lower than I hoped, decently outside the top 10%. My second semester 1L year was much stronger, but still left me just outside the top 10%. So I took a summer school course, got an A, and that bumped me into the top 10% of the class in time for OCI interviews at the beginning of my 2L year. At the time, SMU Law was ranked No. 49/50, and even in the midst of the economic recession, the BigLaw firms were hiring those within the top 15% of the class :)
Angela Vorpahl thank you so much! I really appreciate your transparency.
@@mdgamble My pleasure!!
Hey Angela! 😊
Can u plz show light on how an internatinal student who doesn't have a jd from the usa can work in these fancy big law firms.. Do LLM from USA will really help secure such jobs?
Hi Ratna! I'm working on a video on precisely this topic so stay tuned!!
👍 👍
I want to do corporate law. Ideally looking for BL for a while because it gives you so much more opportunity with your law career afterward. As I am paying for law school on my own and have seat deposits coming up, it is hard to decide where to go. I'm a reverse splitter (Summa Cum Laude undergrad with double major and two minors), with a decent LSAT. What are your opinions on Cardozo Law? I got 50% scholarship there and have been considering it. I also got into the University of Miami at full sticker price and a full ride to Nova Southeastern University (a tier 4 school). Just want some advice from someone in BL in NY!
Hi Sam! First of all, huge congratulations on all of your acceptances, that's so exciting!! Deciding where to go to law school can definitely be tough, but I'll give here are my go-to factors to think about in making your decision:
1. Where do you want to live/work when you graduate law school? You'll be most competitive for jobs in the city where you go to law school.
2. What are the actual numbers for how much you'd spend for each of the law schools you're considering when you factor in tuition, scholarships, and cost of living (e.g. rent).
3. What are the employment statistics for that law school. The ABA requires all law schools to report these numbers, so you can see what percentage of the latest class got full-time JD jobs within 10 months of graduation and in which sectors (e.g. biglaw).
4. [BONUS: What are the average starting salaries vs. cost of living for the city where you're going to law school (to give you the comparative buying power index): www.nalp.org/class_of_2020_buying_power_index]
5. [BONUS: Ask the law school career services department which law firms come to campus for on-campus interviewing, and (if they'll tell you), what are the usual class ranking cutoffs these law firms usually look for?] If they won't give you this information, another way to get at it is by googling biglaw firms in the city, searching the law firm's website by law school, and seeing how many 1st to 3rd year associates from your potential law school are working there.
Let me know if this helps!
Angela
P.S. In answer to your question, Cardozo is a great school, and all else being equal, I'm a huge fan of minimizing your law school debt as much as possible so that you can open up as many options as possible when you graduate (and reach financial freedom much faster).
Ms. Vorpahl; was your law school a tier 1 or tier 2? If it was tier 2 or lower, how did you manage to get a big law law firm position in New York? We’re you first in your class?
My law school was right on the cusp between Tier 1 and Tier 2 -- I went to SMU Law and at the time it was ranked No. 50. I ultimately graduated top 5 in my class, but at the time of OCI interviews, I wasn't as high as that -- I was somewhere in the top 10%. During OCI, I accepted a job with a Dallas law firm that had several offices around the country (one of which was in NYC), and then clerked for a judge the year after law school. When it was time to begin working for the firm after the clerkship, I asked if I could start in the NYC office instead of the Dallas office and they agreed! That transition isn't incredibly common (particularly right of the bat), but it definitely can happen, so make sure you take a look at all the places that the law firm has offices in case you want to try and make a case for a transfer at some point :)
Questions for you
Hi! I was wondering if going to a law school that is low tier but is ranked high in the type of law you want to practice would still be good if you wanted to work in big law? I want to become a medical lawyer and the school has a highly ranked program but the overall rank is low.
Hi Brittney! The rank of the law school can definitely be important, but even more important than the rank is the law school's positioning in the legal market of the city where it's located and the overall strength of the legal market in that city. For example, I went to SMU Law in Dallas, TX. Even though SMU Law was ranked No. 50, it was the only law school in Dallas at the time and Dallas has a really strong legal market, so there were a lot of biglaw firms that recruited at SMU.
Ways to find out (i) the strength of the legal market in that city and (ii) the relative positioning of the law school in that market, is to check out the employment stats for that law school and see what percentage of students got jobs in big law firms (google "law school X employment stats"). You can also reach out to the career services department and ask them which law firms traditionally recruit on campus (and see if they will give you a number or at least some names). A third way to find out is by doing some googling to find the biggest law firms in that city (you can also filter on NALP), check out the attorneys page, and search by your law school to see if there are any junior associates that graduated from your law school (i.e. to find evidence that the firm recently recruited from that law school).
In some cities there aren't any traditionally "big" law firms per se, but there still may be law firms that are big players in that city and still have large institutional clients and pay 6-figure salaries to first year associates. You may just need to do some digging to find out if that's the case.
Let me know if this helps!
Angela
P.S. I also run a free FB group for law students and prelaw students looking for clarity and support in their law school journey. Would you like the link to be able to join? :)
Does this apply to canada?
Hi! This definitely applies to Canadian law students attending U.S. law schools, but since my expertise is U.S. law firm hiring I'm not familiar enough with the Canadian legal system to be able to tell you how Canadian law firms hire their entry-level associates!
What if you are a transfer student your second year??
Interesting question. You would still be eligible to drop your resume to apply to participate in OCI, but it will be tough to qualify with grades from a different law school. It may be the case that you have to wait a year, kick butt grade-wise your 2L year, and come back and drop your resume as a 3L.
@@AngelaVorpahl Angela is right. The good firms don't give a damn about your grades from some Tier 2 law school. Yawn. Let's see how you do now against the big boys in Tier 1, or better yet the T-14.
Hi Angela! I love your videos as a prospective law student. I have one question- would you say it is harder to be in the top 15% of a tier 2 than it is to be in the top 40% of a t14 or higher ranked tier 1? I am deciding if I should retake the LSAT, because my GPA is in t14 range but my LSAT so far has fallen under the median scores. I'm trying to decide if I'd be just as well off going to a tier 2 with more money than retaking and going to a higher ranked school with less money
Hi, Aaron! So first I would say that in deciding whether to take the LSAT, I would compare what you scored on test day versus what you've been scoring on your practice LSATs towards the very end of your prep. For example, if you were scoring 170-172 on practice LSATs and scored 160 on test day, then I would consider retaking the LSAT to see if you can get that score up. Of course it depends which law school cycle you're looking to apply to, but if we're talking Fall 2021, then you'd have more than enough time to do another round of LSAT prep and take the LSAT a second time and still be able to apply for early admission to law schools.
The reason I would lean into possibly taking the LSAT a second time (if you've only taken it once), is because even if you opt to go to a Tier 2 school (rather than Tier 1 or T14), the higher your LSAT score the more scholarship money you can be offered.
With respect to getting into the highest percentiles of your class, the reality is that if you go to a T14 law school you don't really have to be in any certain percentile because no one puts GPAs on their resume and all OCI legal employers have to interview students in a lottery system (rather than choose their preferred candidates). When we get outside of the T14 law schools, and we're talking about scoring in the top 10-15% of your class, that's going to be a lot of hard work and strategy regardless of where you go to law school, but the higher the law school is ranked the more wiggle room you have.
I'm not sure what law school cycle you're looking to apply to, but if you're interested in learning more about dominating law school grades I'm putting on a free "Level Up Law School" 3-Day Challenge to help people get prepared for the upcoming law school semester, so stay on the lookout for that!
The part time ranking for my school differs from the full time ranking. Do you know how to asses part time programs?
Given that part-time programs aren't universal to all law schools, I would need to know some more information about your program -- in particular, which law school you are attending, how many students are in your class, and how strong the legal market is in that city. Feel free to DM me on Instagram if you'd prefer to continue the conversation there!
Forget part-time law programs unless you want to work as a waitress at IHOP or maybe a warehouse position paying $15 per hour. Do you think I am kidding?
When you are in law school do you intern for firms on your breaks?
Good question! And the subject of the next video!! :) The short answer is yes, that is the goal. Some BigLaw firms offer 1L summer clerkships, but all offer 2L summer clerkships and the goal of getting amazing grades your 1L year is to get the latter :)
Do candidates with technical background (EE/CS) get lower grades cutoff for IP (pro/lit)?
Hi! To make sure I understand the question, are you asking about grade cut-offs for undergrad or law school? In law school, everyone takes the exact same classes 1L year (Contracts, Torts, Property, Civil Procedure, Criminal Law, Legal Research and Writing, Constitutional Law, etc.), so you won't have the option of taking IP law classes until your 2L or 3L year.
@@AngelaVorpahl Oh I meant LS GPA. What I heard is for IP, firms generally have lower LS GPA/ranking requirements for engineers
@@nosetackle3929 Ohh gotcha! And yes, I would say that is sometimes the case. I hesitate to say it definitively is true for all BigLaw firms because I don't know if it's widespread enough to be able to generalize accurately. That being said, for smaller or midsized firms looking for IP associates with an EE/CS degree, you have a really good shot at still being competitive with a lower class ranking since it's a much more specific niche that not as many people are qualified to fill. So that's nice :)
@@AngelaVorpahl Gotcha, thanks for the insight!
@@nosetackle3929 Sure thing!!
Should you try to go a firm straight out of law school or you should wait and gain experience
Really good question. The majority of law students go straight from college to law school, but because that's the norm law schools look very favorably on people who have real world experience before coming to law school, especially in professional fields where you can develop skills and training that are transferable to being a lawyer.
If you're not sure if you want to go to law school, it's a great idea to get professional experience beforehand to give yourself time and real world perspective to help decide whether you want to make the big time and financial investment that law school requires :)
@Ryan Santoro Ahh good call! I will right this wrong! :)
Hi, Mohamed! As Ryan points out below, my answer was in response to whether you should go straight from college to law school (whoops!). Here's my answer for whether you should go straight from law school to a law firm:
Most law students' first job out of law school is with a law firm because it's the most natural fit -- law firms are literally a company of lawyers that are hired by other companies and individuals to represent them in legal matters. And so the good thing about working for a law firm as your first step is (1) you will be surrounded by other lawyers that you can learn from, and (2) law firms understand that recent law graduates have almost zero practical experience in the practice of law and are willing to hire you and train you. The other bonuses of working at a law firm as your first legal job are that (3) if you work for a law firm with name recognition that can definitely open doors down the line for you to transfer to other positions (e.g. other law firms, in-house, public sector, non-profit, starting your own law firm), and (4) working for a medium-sized to large law firm is going to pay you more than any other legal job on the market, which a lot of law students opt to take to pay off student loans.
So there are a lot of advantages.
That being said, if you already have your heart set on a particular practice area or sector of the law that does not involve the law firm route, then I recommend that you follow your gut and pursue that other route. Even though working at a highly respected law firm will give you the opportunity to make career changes down the line, it can still be a tough process to switch sectors and practice areas completely. So if you already know (for example) that you want to work as a criminal prosecutor, by all means definitely go ahead and go do that! It will give you years of experience over anyone coming from another sector 3-4 years down the line who will be starting at the bottom and working their way up.
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I could have gone to Harvard but for that darn admissions committee.
You are so beautiful. I didn't blink watching you.
Angela is hot, no question about it.
Embrace greed and dishonesty. Become a lawyer. Abuse humanity.