Hum, I see. So, vicissitude..., yeah! Yes!! I do see your point. I want no piece of that V5 myself, no. Not really. Thank you very much for end any doubts I could have.
Well, I'm still hoping they release a new book that's gonna be really good, or something that's gonna get me into it. At this point... I'll grab on to whatever hope I can get 😔
Well, @@theoldcountry . I do believe thing will improve, get back on track, that sort of thing. Eventually. For World of Darkness ethusiasts. I am not optimistic about being still alive when that time finally arrives, because looks like things will get worse before they start changing direction. But, really, is noting more than a impression. Let's hope!
When you said jupan i knew instantly you are romanian. I see you are a true tzimisce. You are 100% correct in video and don't even get me started on the koldunic sorcery.
Man, the V5 approach to the Tzimisce drives me insane. They've essentially looked at the dragon association, picked one concept (possessiveness), and spun off the *entire* clan based on that! And removing Auspex and giving them Dominate, which was the discipline split that *defined* the roles the Tzimisce and Lasombra in founding the Sabbat? Removing Auspex and its ties to spirituality altogether? It just feels like they've taken one archetype and made it everything. Bossy Gangrel, Malks with a possessiveness derangement, Ventrue with Feral Claws, the V5 version are just... not Tzimisce. V5 might be okay in some areas, and I do like how they handled the Banu Haqim and Ravnos. But wow, I do not like their Tzimisce (or Salubri), or the simplistic approach they take to a lot of other elements. Not sure if you've read the Sabbat book, but they've done the same there - removed a whole lot of Paths and drastically stripped down the remaining ones (Path of Caine, for instance, is now reduced to, "Diablerise everyone who isn't worthy!", there is literally nothing about scholarship and study there. For the *Path of Caine*). I did try my hand at doing a homebrew for V5 Tzimisce (removed Dominate and replaced Auspex, made Vicissitude an amalgam of Protean and Auspex that relies on intense self-knowledge, and went much more into the intellectual and spiritual sides and the conflict between the connection between the land/domain and the need to shift and change), but yeah, the whole thing is a bit of a mess.
Glad you enjoyed it! I like to think Kupala might have... shaped the way Vicissitude works. Perhaps before the Eldest's arrival to the Old Country, it was a painless practice, this discipline :P But we will never know...
I think that the way Tzimisce are described in V5 is written the way it is with only one type of fiend in mind: an uprooted neonate who knows little to nothing about their clan lore, as they are presumably either Anarchs or even Camarilla, and the most important elders remain in the Sabbat. Tzimisce, the way they were invented in the original game, were not really meant as a playable clan.
Well, strictly speaking nothing in the Sabbat was originally meant for playable characters. They where NPCs, and not friendly ones, generally speaking. I think the supplement about medieval time and the Sabbat Manual changed this. Isn't that correct, in your opinion? I do remember that use vicissitude was a bit complicated to use in game. There are vast grey areas. If the narrator allows too much the results are abusively overpowered. But if they cut too close to the rules the discipline ends up too expensive and almost unpractical. The disadvantage is one of those that are actually bad disadvantages. In principle. But is not too difficult to circumvent that in most stories. Live close to home (and being from the city where the story takes place) does the trick for most stories.
The reason why Vicissitude got so heavily nerfed and butchered, is because the writers of 5th edition don't like the idea of players being more monstrous vampires. The clan of death no longer resembles walking corpses, the Nosferatu went from being hideous mutants, to a bunch of dirty hobos with birth defects, and now Vicissitude can't be used to produce an army of demonic creatures to protect your holdings or assail your enemies. V5 is trying to heavily emphasize the importance of maintaining your humanity, and I hate it for doing so. I prefer the Paths of Enlightenment, over the ultimately futile Path of Humanity.
I feel that and it's quite sad! I've run countless Camarilla games that directly or indirectly presented the characters struggle to maintain their humanity, but...what carried Vampire to a whole new level of depth and horror, for me, was precisely the inclusion of Paths of Morality, for other Sects/Independent Clans. Far from being "the Path of what I was going to do anyway", they are very challenging for players, and lead to a very distinct experience. I am pretty disappointed that V5 threw all that away 😕
@@theoldcountry AH yes, "the path of what I was going to do anyways" - I've seen that thrown around a lot. You know what's absolutely irritating about that? The fact that instead of rectifying the problem, V5 made it exponentially worse! They presented the Paths of Enlightenment as strictly antagonistic philosophies that players aren't meant to follow. As far as I know, they neglected to explain how the paths of enlightenment actually work, and prevent the NPC's from becoming fully dominated by their inner Beast. Like, if they can throw away their humanity and retain control, then why can't the players?
@@Nyrufa Paths not existing is the key change to bring me to the game. While paths seem very interesting and profound i haven't had it that way. In my experience it was used to have the game easier. Easier in the sense that the mechanical resource (blood) does not directly inpose difficulties on the maintaining of the character, humans are not inportant anymore. I really do like paths being just antagonistic, if newcomers want to dive in power fantasy they will. It has been very frustrating trying to balance players who get power fantasy from horror and those who like the drama of it. It's very frustrating to the power fantasy player to be killed by meddling kids, or having to twinst their actions enough for not being disturbed by the narrator. V5 has made easy for me to pick a group in which I fit the best, social relationships and human drama. What they've done to paths seems like a big loss for those good players who can give paths the depth it deserves.
@@azielmelo7756 Humans were never important to begin with. You're not playing a human, you're playing a vampire. You're lurking behind the scenes, manipulating human society from the shadows as you feed on them to sustain your own existence. The Path of Humanity is a flawed pipe dream only ascribed to by vampires who are still young enough, that the full gravity of their curse has not dawned on them. Paths of Enlightenment are not simply an alternative play style, they are a necessity for any vampire who wishes to retain their sanity in the long term. Before 5th edition, the books even outright tell the player that the Path of Humanity is not sustainable, losing your Humanity is inevitable, and those who follow a Path of Enlightenment are wise enough to realize this.
Agreed completely. It is so disappointing to see the Tzimisce as a clan step down from one of the most versatile vessels for character expression to basically "Hoarders who like to control stuff, because". It completely ignores what a lot of players liked about the clan and puts a focus lens on what could be but a small fraction of the whole clan identity and culture. Much of the verb line of change, adaptation and trascendance was lost. I get that they tried to simplify and streamline a lot in V5, but i cant help but think that they could have done it without scrapping the extremely rich background lore and history the clan had. It is not even backwards compatible, really. The new discipline changes just stick a bunch of plot holes and questions into the role the clan used to have up to the modern nights that only work if you either dont know the previous lore, or just throw it all in the trash and make new stuff up yourself. It stops feeling like simplification and just feels more like a restrictive and lazier version of what we had before.
I feel that! Speaking of which, i think the "Clan verbs" idea is not great because: - Clans don't have a monopoly on their associated actions. I mean, what, only Tremere study? Only Tzimisce like to control things? - sticking to the verbs encourages stereotypical portrayal of Clans, as opposed to nuanced individuals who are also part of a Clan, and were probably embraced because of their potential to embody Clan culture (and be an asset), but also have, and do their own thing.
I remember reading the Anarch book and finding it laughable that a group of people with Protean, especially after the change to make Vicissitude into a Protean amalgam, were unable to assist a trans person with their gender identity when it’s just a predator type away. It’s indicative of this surface-level political signaling that seems to take priority over the clan cultures that existed for, as you said, decades before V5. I think your Brujah Primogen sample video is a good way to describe the tonal shift between V20 and V5.
Oh, on the note of things we read in V5, I remember reading this short passage in the Anarch book in which a young Diva, recently embraced no less, brags about seducing a centuries old Nosferatu, Seneschal to a Tzimisce Prince, and how she turned them against one another. This is such a puerile, childish take on things. There are very slim chances this would have ever happened, let alone be done in an effortless manner, as presented by the character in the book. But... of course it worked, right, because all those centuries-old spymasters, information-hoarding, sneaky and manipulative Nosferatu want is to be loved... and to feel pretty for a change, right? Oh, please, a centuries old Seneschal being seduced by a clueless Neonate Diva? SERIOUSLY? Not in a million years! Even if we strip away the context of Clan culture and the way clans are very careful of each other, knowing, based on stereotypes, what the other is capable of, a hundreds of years old Seneschal would not fall for the clumsy manipulations of a new embrace, especially someone who is barely a Neonate. What, did the Seneschal fall in love so hard he decided the best way to manifest that affection is to expose himself to the greatest risk imaginable, by betraying a Tzimisce Prince he'd served for centuries... just to earn or maintain the affection of a young Diva? REALLY? That's so dumb! V5 assumes Elders are stupid for one reason or another and... I'm really not a fan of this approach. A major aspect of the horror of Vampire is that these Elders are COMPETENT (if eccentric and weird), their servants are COMPETENT, their experiences over multiple lifetimes, coupled with their detachment from the humanity they once had... makes them very calculated monsters, whose resources far exceed anything the disposable Fledgeling/Neonate protagonists have to offer them, which is why, if anything, these youngsters fight the Jyhad using tech, intel, and, of course, aggression/destruction. They cannot compete with the Elders using the same skillset, because the oppressive "capes" have refined their skills over centuries, influence, bullshit detection, seduction, patience! These newer generations are but pawns on the boards of the Elders, whether those Elders are Camarilla, Sabbat or Anarchs, and the fight isn't easy, it's desperate, it's bloody, they can only hope that with enough planning and dedication and effort, something better can emerge out of the ashes of the currently power-structures. So, yeah, there's a tonal discrepancy not just between previous editions and V5, but within V5 itself.
Bro, it is not worth trying to reconcile V5 lore with V20 lore because V5 is pretty much a soft reboot of the WoD. The designer and writers at Paradox have gone on record sayin that they are not gonna delve to much into the lore and metaplot in V5 because it is "overwhelming for new players", so most of that 25+ years of lore is not touched upon or retconned in V5. It just kind of begs the question why they decided to bring back VtM but not expand the metaplot when we already had VtR as the less lore heavy game.
Yup, agree here. I must say, I think they were just trying to stay away from "sore subjects" that the history of Vampire often includes, because otherwise, ok, I've had to read all of these books for years and years to get a good view of both the bigger picture and the finer details, but nowadays there are so many lore channels on youtube or other platforms. The lore has never been so accessible. So, I don't get how listening to awesome short stories with interesting characters, within the themes of this setting, makes life difficult for new players. I am very confused in this regard. 😐
@@theoldcountry Agreed. I get that thier were some problematic aspects in the old lore but Paradox really didn't need to throw the baby with bath water buy just ignoring most of it. But I just really hate thier excuse that lore "gatekeeps new players", when the lore and metaplot was what attracted players to VtM rather then VtR. I was born when Revised was released and my introduction to the WoD was through Bloodlines which I played in 2017. I didn't even really get into the lore of VtM and started playing the table top until 2019, when Bloodlines 2 was announced but I was able to get a pretty good grasp on the setting by watching lore vids and reading White Wolf wiki. So I just don't buy that excuse at all.
@Paul Gauthier Also read your reply to SmugGrog 98 and though I'm trying not to be mean and keep opinions regarding their current business practices to myself, it certainly looks like current Vampire is trying to follow all these other RPG trends that seem to bring in a lot of financial gain and are super popular. I get it, writers and developers have to make a living off of these products, but... some choices seem to have been made even against that result. I guess I just don't really understand where they're going with this :D But yeah, I kinda feel what you're saying :P
@@theoldcountry On a more positive note. I actually do like the flavor of the Tzimisce in V5 since they feel like the Dark Ages version of the clan but in Modern Nights, the "Dracula vibes" are strong and I really like the discipline spread of Dominate, Animalism, and Vicissitude. I just find the idea of a independent bloodline of Tzimisce that have sacrificed thier more spiritual side for more control and mastery of the physical world, they are the ultimate masters of those that reside in thier land, having dominion over the minds of men and beasts and can shape thier forms to thier will. I also love the potential conflict between the Fiends in the Sabbat vs the Independent Dragons, with some neonates also choosing to join the Anarchs to. The funny thing, is that your idea for making the V5 Tzimisce match up better to the V20 lore is pretty much the route I went in introduce it as bloodline in V20 to. The only difference is that instead of going with the Basarab, I went with the bloodlines origins coming from a new revenant family created by Dracula and they also don't view the use of Vicissitude as taboo and view as simply as another tool to be used to assert thier will and view the Old Clan as fool for not using it but they also find the main clans over reliance on the discipline to be distasteful also. I just hate that Vicissitude is a amalgam of Protean and Dominate and I really dislike thier bane and compulsion. Sure the Tzimisce have always been possessive and territorial as a clan but it shouldn't be a mechanical thing, since just like you said in your video it just makes them Malkavians with a hording derangement.
@@smuggrog9821 This! ☝ Agree completely. I mean, it wouldn't be the first time the Tzimisce undergo a clan-wide schism (like Constantinople Fiends vs Old Country Metamorphosists). In this case it can be the Independent/Anarch "Draculas" vs the Sabbat "Traditionalists" 😁 The current state of the Clan can easily be explained without removing continuity, and I think it brings a lot of flavor having multiple Tzimisce factions/subcultures in a game set in the current nights 🥰
Thank you so much for answering my, especially so fast! I’m glad that I am not alone in feeling that V5’s approach on “appropriating” certain elements from the previous continuity is quite dreadful. I am also very sorry for subjecting you to this😂 Again, I appreciate this a lot, and one final question: Do you have a Patreon?
Ah, don't worry about a thing, I would have subjected myself to this read, eventually :D. The lore-seeker's pursuit dictates it. I actually feel relieved, and I'm pretty glad I got the opportunity to share my view on this. Also, no, no Patreon for now... or the near future (or maybe never at all). It has already been a while since I started the new job, and sadly, I still haven't found a safe solution for making these episodes every week. There might be times when I won't be able to post for... quite a while. I would absolutely hate myself if I took someone's hard-earned money, knowing I can't deliver the content that got them supporting me in the first place, whether it's a subscription thing or a one time donation :( Not to mention, this is a labor or love. Knowing that these episodes are fun for anyone who gives them a listen is reward enough, really :D I just hope I can keep up the good job :P I appreciate the thought IMMENSELY though, wow, I never even imagined anyone would want to support The Old Country in that way. So, I thank you very much for the kindness! :D
Yeah, I am always looking forward to your videos. ❤️ While I find some of the new lore concerning the Beckoning, the changes of the members of the Sabbat and the Camarilla and the rise of the Anarchs to a more influential faction quite good, I really don't like the redcons to the clan histories and the changes from very specific and defining clan disciplines to those amalgams. Especially for the Tzimisce, since they are my favorite.
I'm happy you're enjoying the channel 🥰 Oh, make no mistake, I'm pretty intrigued that the Anarchs broke away from the Camarilla. It feels like the Cam had it coming for a while, ever since the Gangrel first left. Given recent events, it makes sense the dynamics between sects change a bit. And the Lasombra have always had a little branch of Antitribu. I mean, Lucita herself was, (marginally) Camarilla for quite a while (even if only to spite her Sire 🤣) But yeah, too many changes on all fronts and really shouldn't have ignored compatibility with previous lore 😔
As someone who is sorta getting into VtM, I am turned off from V5 for same reason I am turned off from VtR. They confuse and complicate the narrative I learned from the video games and V20 is compatible with the mountains of WoD stuff in case I ever wanted to splice the settings, meanwhile the V5 and VtR have less fleshed out universes.
How do you feel about portraying Vicissitude as an otherwordly spiritual infection that spread to the clan? The books that tried to add this concept to the lore were VERY controversial back in the day, so much that they dropped the concept completely in future editions. I personally think is a cool idea, but not for one of the main clans, maybe the idea could be recycled for a bloodline, something like a Lovecraftian themed Baali bloodline that deals with extra-dimensional entities and try to corrupt the world for their eldritch masters.
I don't have a problem with that in the slightest. I'm currently playing a Koldun who also make use of Vicissitude, and the Malkavian of the coterie is on guard around my protagonist, since the voices keep telling her I'm diseased, infected, unclean, under the influence of... something. At some point I gave my storyteller the go-ahead to do anything he wants to my character, even gave suggestions for what horrible little things could happen in order to create some body-horror. One evening, the character involuntarily grew mouths in the palms of her hands, and it was scary, but that was the only instance of Vicissitude acting on its own... just enough to create fear and confusion, which it did. But then... silence! I guess I'd encourage the player and storyteller to talk about this first and set some boundaries that both of them can agree upon, considering how frequently or badly/intensely the corruption manifests, if it comes with derangements, and if it is, indeed, an otherworldly parasitic being. Its origin doesn't have to be known, really. I think an illness is so much more frightening when nothing is known about it. Personally, I'd maintain the mystery throughout the game, revealing more about the corruption towards the end of the chronicle. If handled and portrayed unwisely, themes of eldrich corruprion will quickly overpower the political, more mundane themes. I mean, who cares about manipulative Toreadors and sneaky Nosferatu trying to overthrow Prince What's-his-face if you have an alien parasite inside of you? It's body horror, for sure, but it risks derailing the game, making it all about that. But, if this is done wisely, not too often, it works like a charm! 😌
Owing to the inspirations for Clan Tzimisce I have always thought this Clan would have its own form of necromantic sorcery. I am basing this idea on the links between this Clan, the novel Dracula and the Necroscope series of novels. I would love your thoughts.
I have not read the Necroscope series so I will have to do some research before I open my mouth in that regard :D, however, I can say there are Fiends who practice the Path of Death and the Soul, Sascha Vykos, for example. Some of them do become Necrotomists. In an upcoming episode I'm actually hoping to look at the culture and practices behind the different types of sorceries in V:tM, but I can give you a little spoiler :P Considering that Necromancy, at least the Giovanni Necromancy, relies on the practitioner's systematic violation of taboos, often involving human remains (when it comes to the Bone path and some rituals), I think older, experienced Tzimisce (who might have had a non-lethal encounter or two with a Giovanni), would actually have a fairly high chance of practicing this discipline without completely shattering their own mortal code. Their pursuit of Metamorphosis also relies on a systematic violation of taboos (mainly related to the living/undead body, constant reshaping, acclimatization to intense, agonizing pain etc.), leaving behind all traces of human behavior and morality on the road to transcendence. I think if any clan (not bloodline!) other than the Giovanni could practice Necromancy, it would be the Tzimisce, especially when it comes not to the spirit or the dead (Sepulchre Path), or descent into the lands of the dead (Ash Path), but the physical remains, the flesh and bones of the dead (Bone Path). I mean... if any of my players comes up with an interesting reason why their Tzimisce protagonist knows and practices such exotic disciplines, I'll gladly allow it (depending on the type of chronicle as well). Same goes for other clans having Vicissitude :D Buuut, for the most part, keeping true to what I said in the episode, I'll let each clan have its own "brand" :P Necromancy is the bread and butter of other Clans. No poaching! :))
@Paul Gauthier Oh, undoubtedly there were a lot of Vampire products being effectively thrown at players around that time, and as we've seen on the channel, some were of... not great quality. V20 brought all of those events/lore down to accessible form, in a small number of supplement books, while maintaining backward compatibility with Revised, for those who enjoy a ton of lore and fluff. It really seemed to make the best of both worlds to me 🤔 But hey, I can totally understand what you are saying. Even for me it was a bit much at times 😋
This reminds me of a video I saw of someone who worked at White Wolf who went on a rant on how the new generation that is coming up, aka the ones who made v5, have absolutely no creative spark whatsoever. He said they only care about one of two things: making money or giving their political opinion to people who never asked for it. He even explained that they often buy the rights to works of art and then completely butcher them with stupid changes because they have no talent of their own. Then, expect people to give them the same praise they gave the original creator and get downright indignant when they don't.
@@Kryptic245 That is so sad 😞 And this out of control "activism in everything" kind of attitude is very unpleasant. At least, it's so on the nose, so obvious and self-righteous. There's many ways in which people can express their views and convictions without shoving them down other people's throats 😔 I mean... ultimately it's an RPG, it's a storytelling game which should allow players to explore a multitude of views and stances, without judgement, while making it clear that the writers don't necessarily adhere to the beliefs or encourage the behaviors of the characters within their books. The writers ARE NOT their books. The players are NOT their characters! Why don't people understand that? While it's considered the epitomy of poor taste to play an older character who still holds outdated beliefs, it's fine for V5 to tell me how to maximize bleed in a supplement mostly related to toxic vampire romance? Really? I guess at this point I'm just confused 😕
The developments, yes. I can't believe WoD doesn't learn from past mistakes, really. I'm actually checking out Lore by Night's new video while replying to you, about how one of the W5 artists used a real person's image to create artwork for the book (and it's not the first time either). Damn it, you can't just take someone's image, without their permission, and put them in the book, even if you're doing it as an easter-egg, because you're a fan. I get it, I get that it's not coming from a malevolent intention, but.. still not ok. And this has all happened before! In nWoD, in Hunter: the Vigil, I think it was, someone just traced over Dante from DMC3 and instead of his sword, Rebellion, he had a Winchester rifle on his shoulder, but it was clearly him. Gah, do they never learn? I seriously don't understand what the people in charge of these new editions are doing, because they keep making the same mistakes, it seems... *Exsanguinates innocent mortal in frustration and loses Humanity*
hah I totaly agree with the premise of the video. But I must admit I see a great irony, when in one moment you refer to the new lore as Malkavians with hoarding derangement, and in the next you kinda show some tendency for lore hoarding :D.
Well, now, I didn't say hoarding is completely beneath Tzimisce 🤣 *shoves stack of lore books in a closet stuffed full of them and barely gets door closed* Ah, this comment made my morning, because I've never thought of it that way 😁 On a more serious note, and I'm saying this both due to personal preference and in general: I don't think having tons and tons of lore scattered throughout dozens of costly books is the way to go, and I think a neatly wtitten, pocket-sized VtM would've been amazing. However, pulling the plug on that previous lore altogether... stops creating and detailing the social images of the clans, the factions within said clans, their hierarchies and so on. Just a bit more lore detailing these things would've been enough 😔
It always felt like to me after playing V5 for a good amount of time over the years that they want to bottle neck themselves? Like it follows a consistent formula, and write very little concerning Vampirism and the general setting outside of western culture. Last thing that was sort of new and unique was Oblivion. If you understand what I mean? THAT CAN OF WORMS ASIDE! I never even knew Vlad Tepes was apart of some Tzemisce counterculture! let alone any counter culture to the Old Clan aside Sabbat Tzimisce sort of? I know about how the Tzimisce got along with Lasombra, but I only really understand it from the Lasombra perspective. Having historical figures be so integrated with the politics and story is so cool. Would love to hear more about him in the future~
To explain the counter-culture idea very briefly: most Tzimisce joined the Sabbat. Dracula remained Independent, using all sects, and pinning them against each other for his own gain. Despite his knowledge (we can even call it mastery) of both Vicissitude and Koldunism and his involvement in both the mistic practices and the political moves of the clan, he retained his Humanity 😲 He effectively forced a Tzimisce Anarch to embrace him 😳 and then diablerized his Sire. Dracula is a real force when it comes to violating the taboos of the Tzimisce. I don't know if there is one rule that he hadn't broken. 😁
I can totally understand the feeling. Honestly, I thought that... as time passes, the divide and the feeling of alienation will diminish or subside, but nope, it's beginning to feel more and more like a wound that doesn't close or heal. I mean, hell, I don't really make V5 episodes, but even those who do, and those who run V5 games (other Vampire channels I keep up with), are bitter about the "ethics of the path" of V5 writers and marketing (or lack thereof), so you know something is off. But hey, I like to think I have a healthy dose of patient and carefully-scrutinized self-doubt, so I keep thinking maybe I'm in the wrong, or at least... I'm open to the possibility that I might have missed something about V5 that is great and just waiting to be discovered. Regardless, I'll keep making episodes about the Vampire I know and love, extending hospitality to any who seek it (like a good little Voivode) and letting my dear listeners make up their own mind about what the lore of V:tM means to them. "Metamorphosis" is a very intimate and individual pursuit after all, and I do my best to respect and consider everyone's opinion and preferred practices (and by this I mean edition :P). But... yeah, I so feel you!
Oh wow, you're basically a VtM Elder, as it were! 😈 An Anterevisedluvian who's seen the rise and fall of all editions! 🤯 So, I've heard a lot of people saying V5 took the game back to its First Edition roots, without the needless fluff of the Revised era. What are your thoughts on this? Here you are as someone who's played 1st Edition, and you still think V5 is bad 😔 Was this edition made only for... Fledgelings? (To keep up the Age/Status comparison)
@@theoldcountry The setting of 1st was good but the mechanics where clunky hence why it lasted less than a year. 2nd improved the mechanics however in the later years the setting was plagued by rediculous power creep, Revised perfected both rules and the setting however the meta plot introduced by then Developer Justin Achilles left few options but to end the game with Gehenna. V20 gave us a rich setting with balanced rules and the most complete rule book WW had ever produced up to that time. V20 was perfect having a great and balanced rule set absent power creep and a meta plot and therefore a new edition unnecessary in my opinion. V5 did not give me a 1st edition vibe, though I will not discount others who felt that it did. In my opinion, for what little it is worth, the decision to alter and neuter several of the clans initially turned me off. Hecata?? The Ministry?? Tzimisce without Vicissitude?? I felt the writting was subpar and the decision to interject real world politics and to attack fans that voiced their concerns to be the final straw for me. I will admit that I thought the hunger system was brilliant and should have been part of the system from the beginning. For those that enjoy V5, you be you and keep playing. I'll stick with V20.
@@ChrisHolman Very well said, especially regarding the neutering of clans. I was genuinely shocked by that. I mean, a lot of people online seem to think the "old guard" of VtM bashes on V5 for no reason or something, just because we're reticent to change and, I donno, we have gate-keeping tendencies, but, personally, I was genuinely shocked by all the changes that were made to the setting, the disciplines, the metaplot, various mechanics, all of that. And I'm curious if you would agree with me: I was initially excited for V5, and I wanted to love and support it. I wanted it to be good. Reading the book, in my imagination, would've been something akin to returning to the arms of a kind and loyal lover, or hanging out with a good old friend, someone you know, trust, and can't wait to see again. But, as soon as I flipped through the book I felt a sense of alienation and confusion. There was no sense of familiarity there, not even a bit. The lover had given their heart to someone else. The friend stood me up and sent their cousin to hang with me instead, out of some distant sense of pity 🥲 Luckily, all of the previous editions are always on the table, available to anyone who wishes to play them 😁
@ChrisHolman @theoldcountry I can't agree more with you two. And i'm not an antediluvian of VtM, i technically started just before V4 came out ; but since i just buried myself into the WoD (Mostly VtM and things related to it in other Splats ; though i do have good knowledge of other Splats even a bit in Demon the Fallen even if that game is insufferable almost as much as V5), and i tried so hard to like V5 ... but i can't. It's just not VtM, it's an unassumed reboot. (we can see that they go for rebooting things when we look at H5 and of course W5 which clearly announce that it is a reboot at the beginning of the book)
That's just the problem. It's not that I find it or don't find it canon, but I'm actively having difficulty reading it, because it feels like such a step down from what was before :( And make no mistake, I would have loved to enjoy it and be excited about new releases, but... it's just not for me. And yes, regarding the Nosferatu, you are absolutely right! Their curse is that they are monstrously hideous. Depending on their Brood (their lineage), yes, some of them exhibit leprosy, like the Turkish Lazarenes, but others have translucent skin, like the French Parisii, others have individual malformations or growths depending on their habitat/environment, like Gutka, the Salt Queen, who spent time in mines and was slowly encrusted by salt crystals :D The Nosferatu can have a very wide range of hideousness. While I absolutely love how the Clan pays tribute to 1922's Nosferatu, eine Symphonie des Grauens, I think having variations to the "traditional look" is also very nice
I'll be as brief as I can: the current metaplot is, to some degree, interesting, especially when it doesn't throw the old lore out the window. The Lasombra, for instance, have always had an Antitribu branch (albeit small), so we can assume because of the Beckoning and the "disappearance" of the Sabbat, that Antitribu branch rose to power. The Hecata are all of the Necromancer Clans or Bloodlines brought together (though I can only imagine what might have brought together vampires who have been hating each other with a passion for hundreds of years). At least they clearly distinguish between the "families" which make up the clan, so again, ties into the lore, so these particular Clans/examples don't feel so remakey :D There are things that work in V5, there are things V5 does very well, mostly interesting mechanics, but there is a plethora of lore and Clans/bloodlines/older mechanics that it either left out or re-wrote in a way that really doesn't do them any justice, and it's something I just can't really... get over and like the game :( This is about as much as I can reply for now, given how I couldn't bring myself to actually read the V5 books from cover to cover (like I usually do). I really wish I could have been excited about this edition, but all of these seemingly arbitrary decisions regarding what is clearly a new direction for Vampire have done nothing but push me away. With that in mind, no grudge towards the roleplaying people who enjoy V5! :D Even though it's not for me, I'm happy is has captured the attention and imagination of so many people! :P
While I don't agree with how much v5 in general has nerfed, I can see some lore reasoning for why more clans can access prior "signature" disciplines If you consider, mechanically, that a kindred can learn disciplines outside her clan but that it comes at a significantly higher cost, it almost makes sense that a particularly inclined Gangrel taking Vicissitude actually wouldn't spend enough points to attain a Zulu form, so a Story Teller can still treat that as a Tzimisce rite of passage in their chronicles, if that makes sense
I see your point on this one, I agree, and, mechanically, everything is ultimately allowed, as long as players and storytellers shake hands on it, and it makes their game fun for all involved. But setting and narration also need to be in step with those mechanics, to follow along. And this is where things become confusing for me: Make no mistake, I'm not saying signature disciplines should always be "locked" behind isolationist, xenophobic clan cultures, but I am saying that learning another clan's signature discipline is, ultimately, the very act of learning their practices and culture, whether stolen from them (through observation, followed by trial and error, if such a thing is possible) or taught by members of said clan as reward for a certain service/favor (much more likely to happen) Having those signature disciplines creates distinct power-dynamics between the clans and sects, thus, they are an important part of the setting and the way each clan plays the Jyhad. In a sect such as the Sabbat, where blood is regularly exchanged, everyone can learn the first dots of Vicissitude, Obeah, Protean etc., and, it goes without saying, anyone interested in furthering that discipline, even though it's out of clan, can do so. Why? Because, in the Sabbat they are surrounded by potential mentors, of Clan Tzimisce/Salubri/Gangrel, who probably won't object to teaching a "Brother/Sister" a skill that might save their unlife and keep their Pack strong. Because Pack culture is placed above Clan Culture. This is not the case for other Sects. And wouldn't you know it, this is the exact Sect V5 left out, the Sect which would have justified amalgams the most 🥲 But, you see, when the discipline is just... given, written down mechanically, without the cultural weight, without context, as a practice that isn't really explained very well, it makes things confusing. If all it took for kindred to develop disciplines was "playing around a little bit and seeing if it works", then everyone should be running around with a plethora of custom disciplines, or combinations of disciplines, to the point where no one knows what clan anyone is anymore, whereas the game operates by the logic that clan practices are passed down, from master to pupil, from sire to childe. They are in the blood, they are, at the same time, empowering and oppressive to younger bloods (like any real life traditional cultural practices, really) So, I agree with you that the mechanics can be justified and players/storytellers can still work with these amalgams very well, and run a solid game that everyone is going to enjoy 😉 I dislike, however, the fact that some clans have their distinct cultural practices... externalized, and that one Sect which could have explained exactly how these amalgams came into existence is nowhere in sight. I guess, what I'm still asking to this day is: "What really are amalgams? How did they come to be?"
Honestly I prefer v5 mechanicaly to v20. And I consider the lore a non issue because that's always varies by table and you can still draw from the other editions for lore. I dont really see why the older lore can't be cannon to v5. Alot of lore exsists separately from mechanics and thus is as cannon to your VTM games as your table wants it to be. All the lore has always been written from an in character perspective with your st deciding the truth
Undoubtedly, there are things that V5 does very well, and I'm not saying that it's a bad system, just that it offers a lot less by comparison to previous editions. Hmm, I know what you are saying in regards to the lore, but quite a bit of it is actually presented out of character, for everyone to use, at their tables, as they see fit, in clanbooks, chronicle books, city books. I like having the option of not integrating something in my games, but to not even be given that option though it already exists... I don't get it. They had a huge wealth of archetypes, character creation options, clan culture etc. and they chose not to use that. I don't understand why. Tell you something, though. Because of that huge preexisting lore, I've been playing VtM for more than a decade, and I've always found something new and fun to do, a new story to tell, within the same setting. And if I wasn't playing it, I was reading one book or another. V5 has only been around for a few years. I'm eager to see where it goes next and if it can fascinate its players as long as the previous editions have 🤔
I'm in a weird place as someone who got into this game pre-V5 but didn't actually play until V5. For me, though I liked the old lore a lot, but it felt daunting to get into and the mechanics of things were hard to understand at times. This lead me to constantly half-create characters, then become unable to flesh them out or have them feel unique rather than "with the clan stereotype or against it". I love a lot of the things V5 has done simply because they have made things more minimalistic feeling, if that makes sense? Hunger removed some of the slog of count BP and added interesting flavor. I initially hated amalgams but they have grown on me. I think Tzimisce have gone from a clan I thought was cool but would never play because I couldn't really think of a compelling character to make, to one of my favorites because they are no longer hard tied to the Sabbat. You can make all sorts of not completely inhuman Tzimisce without feeling like you are making an exception to an exception to an exception just to play the clan in a non-Sabbat game. My first character was a knowledge hording history professor, trying to rekindle the old Koldunic ways of the clan for their sire who had fled the collapsing Sabbat. Again, just my perspective, but to me it feels better to have every clan more 'playable' in more scenarios. Tzimisce, Lasombra, Banu Haqim, Followers of Set, Ravnos, Salubri, and the Necromancy Coalition all seem more playable in an average game (especially for a beginner to rp like me). As far as the lore implications of making unique disciplines amalgams, you can always elude to other things. "That Dragon tells me their art is as simple as Dominating their own body. But that's preposterous, you can't look in the mirror and dominate yourself. So what exactly in their body are they commanding?" I feel like by trimming back all the lore and metaplot, it just leaves room for the ST to insert whatever rumor or myths they want from old cannon into their games. I personally would never let anyone just learn the clan specific amalgams at random without a teacher, that way they keep their uniqueness and exclusivity. Doesn't matter if you have Protean and Dominate as a Gangrel, you'll never learn Vicissitude without tasting a Tzimisce's vitae first, same with Chimestry, Obeah, and the rest. Either way I appreciate your thoughts in this video!
I wrote this while sleep deprived, and for some reason thought I watched the whole video when I had actually only watched half of it 😅 I do agree with you on the point that writing in a new faction of more humane, counter culture Tzimisce would have been great though!
@@Interionisim No problem in any way, and I appreciate you taking the time to write this lengthy comment and share your thoughts 🥰 It seems youtube is a little sleep deprived too, because I'm only seeing this 3 months later... for some unknown reason 😔 I find the question "What exactly in their body are they commanding?" amazing! Oh wow, this opens the narrative gates towards a body-horror story of crushing proportions, sort of giving it the fear and corrupting wonder Vicissitude evoked in previous editions. See? The Companion should have asked its readers more questions like this! 👍 And its a single question. Sometimes, instead of offering a half-assed explanation, its better to inspire player creativity with a solid, frightening question 😁
What they did to malks and tzimisce is what turned me away from v5. I just wish they would of kept the depth and interesting parts of the Tzimisce. Instead of stripping them down and making them supernatural hoarders. Its just disrespectful. They're the vampire equivalent of transhumanists but that whole idea is gone in v5.
Hmmm, at this point I know I'm bashing on V5 and kinda beating a dead horse too, but I will keep beating away if you allow me 😁 So, HOW, WHY, did they boil down all of the interesting parts to a monochrome, monotone, hoardy landlord/gang leader archetype? I can see how those archetypes are fun to play, they're probably empowering in their own way, but... there was so much variation to the character archetypes before this, the "branches" of the clan, and so many interesting concepts to explore, each different in its own way. I feel like all the mystery is just gone now, and the wealth of Clan culture is reduced to 1 or 2 archetypes, removed from any sense of history and tradition. Well, I know the Clan is already in decline (according to the history and lore) and the New World fiends are disconnected from their ancestral culture, but the writers didn't have to disconnect the players too, if you know what I mean 😂 For all its Fleshcraft, this Clan had a well-defined and still very permissive/inclusive shape, a well-defined personality and form. Now... it feels like an amorphous blob. It can turn into anything the players want because... it's nothing in particular anymore 😔 Kinda sad, and, like you said, disrespectful indeed!
Should players have access to vicissitude or “rare” disciplines? In all fairness could you not say the same thing about just normal protean? Potence as an example, everyone seems to thinks this is a power any caitiff/ghoul could get easily. As someone who has done powerlifting, I would say to unlock potence you need to condition your nervous system. Only through conditioning your body to express maximum force can you unlock potence. Now how many people have conditioned their nervous systems/bodies to use max force. Vicissitude, protean and serpentis are different applications of the same thing. Advanced users of protean sometimes find their bodies shifting without their consent, reacting directly to their emotions, bringing them into embarrassing situations. They can also combine human and animal body parts to become a man-beast(werewolf or were anything). Other abilities include becoming one with the earth, turning into mist, turning into fire. If protean can do all that what is the difference between these three different abilities. When I listening to people discuss the disciplines of vicissitude, protean and serpentis they all seem like the same thing. Also I agree on the lore in v5 vs v20 they could have done a better job.
Nice! Thank you for the comment and the insight, I had no idea powerlifting requires a conditioning of the nervous system. That's super interesting! Hmmm, I do agree with you here, that learning a new discipline shouldn't be effortless, a walk in the park, something that just happens. It occurs to me that I might have misjudged the physical disciplines in this regard, by thinking that they just... develop naturally over time, the more they are used 🤔 But casual use wouldn't exactly... enhance their effects, that's for sure. You make a solid point comparing Vicissitude with Protean and Serpentis, but it illustrates my idea precisely: Protean and Serpentis are also signature disciplines (at least in previous editions), and are thus practiced almost exclusively by the clan that developed them. Some disciplines are common - no clan claims them as their own signature practice, and they are, in fact, practiced by a large number of clans/ bloodlines -, like Potence, Celerity, Fortitude and hey, even the signature discipline of the Nosferatu, Obfuscate, is being used by no less than 6 other clans/bloodlines besides them (City Gangrel, Malkavian, Assamite, Setite, Tlacique, Baali, Obertus Revenants and maybe others I've missed). You are absolutely correct to say that that the same argument can be made for all signature disciplines, and even though Protean, Vicissitude, and Serpentis are similar in function (they are shape-shifting disciplines), they are the product of different clan cultures, and thus, bear different meanings and uses. Gangrel adapt to their environment, as nomads par excellence, Setites resemble the dark god Apep, and the Tzimisce sculpt flesh like clay, tyrannically, often using this discipline to terrorize their enemies. I can also see the common... roots of these 3 disciplines, but the fact that they broke free from those roots and are distinct practices makes the game so much more flavorful and interesting :D But, yeah, you make a very good point here. And now I'm going to look into powerlifting a bit more 😁 (because you've made me very curious)
Hum, I see. So, vicissitude..., yeah! Yes!! I do see your point. I want no piece of that V5 myself, no. Not really. Thank you very much for end any doubts I could have.
Well, I'm still hoping they release a new book that's gonna be really good, or something that's gonna get me into it. At this point... I'll grab on to whatever hope I can get 😔
Well, @@theoldcountry . I do believe thing will improve, get back on track, that sort of thing. Eventually. For World of Darkness ethusiasts. I am not optimistic about being still alive when that time finally arrives, because looks like things will get worse before they start changing direction. But, really, is noting more than a impression. Let's hope!
When you said jupan i knew instantly you are romanian. I see you are a true tzimisce.
You are 100% correct in video and don't even get me started on the koldunic sorcery.
And not much gave me away before saying "jupan"? It means my accent isn't as thick as I thought 😁 Nice!
Glad you enjoyed the episode 😉
@@theoldcountry Vorbesti foarte bine in engleza, cu accent european continental nu estic.
Man, the V5 approach to the Tzimisce drives me insane. They've essentially looked at the dragon association, picked one concept (possessiveness), and spun off the *entire* clan based on that! And removing Auspex and giving them Dominate, which was the discipline split that *defined* the roles the Tzimisce and Lasombra in founding the Sabbat? Removing Auspex and its ties to spirituality altogether? It just feels like they've taken one archetype and made it everything. Bossy Gangrel, Malks with a possessiveness derangement, Ventrue with Feral Claws, the V5 version are just... not Tzimisce.
V5 might be okay in some areas, and I do like how they handled the Banu Haqim and Ravnos. But wow, I do not like their Tzimisce (or Salubri), or the simplistic approach they take to a lot of other elements. Not sure if you've read the Sabbat book, but they've done the same there - removed a whole lot of Paths and drastically stripped down the remaining ones (Path of Caine, for instance, is now reduced to, "Diablerise everyone who isn't worthy!", there is literally nothing about scholarship and study there. For the *Path of Caine*).
I did try my hand at doing a homebrew for V5 Tzimisce (removed Dominate and replaced Auspex, made Vicissitude an amalgam of Protean and Auspex that relies on intense self-knowledge, and went much more into the intellectual and spiritual sides and the conflict between the connection between the land/domain and the need to shift and change), but yeah, the whole thing is a bit of a mess.
Vicissitude sounds like a Lore of Flesh with a little of torment from Earthbound. Propably it could be true.
Great video!!!
Glad you enjoyed it! I like to think Kupala might have... shaped the way Vicissitude works. Perhaps before the Eldest's arrival to the Old Country, it was a painless practice, this discipline :P But we will never know...
I think that the way Tzimisce are described in V5 is written the way it is with only one type of fiend in mind: an uprooted neonate who knows little to nothing about their clan lore, as they are presumably either Anarchs or even Camarilla, and the most important elders remain in the Sabbat. Tzimisce, the way they were invented in the original game, were not really meant as a playable clan.
Well, strictly speaking nothing in the Sabbat was originally meant for playable characters. They where NPCs, and not friendly ones, generally speaking. I think the supplement about medieval time and the Sabbat Manual changed this. Isn't that correct, in your opinion?
I do remember that use vicissitude was a bit complicated to use in game. There are vast grey areas. If the narrator allows too much the results are abusively overpowered. But if they cut too close to the rules the discipline ends up too expensive and almost unpractical.
The disadvantage is one of those that are actually bad disadvantages. In principle. But is not too difficult to circumvent that in most stories. Live close to home (and being from the city where the story takes place) does the trick for most stories.
The reason why Vicissitude got so heavily nerfed and butchered, is because the writers of 5th edition don't like the idea of players being more monstrous vampires. The clan of death no longer resembles walking corpses, the Nosferatu went from being hideous mutants, to a bunch of dirty hobos with birth defects, and now Vicissitude can't be used to produce an army of demonic creatures to protect your holdings or assail your enemies. V5 is trying to heavily emphasize the importance of maintaining your humanity, and I hate it for doing so. I prefer the Paths of Enlightenment, over the ultimately futile Path of Humanity.
I feel that and it's quite sad! I've run countless Camarilla games that directly or indirectly presented the characters struggle to maintain their humanity, but...what carried Vampire to a whole new level of depth and horror, for me, was precisely the inclusion of Paths of Morality, for other Sects/Independent Clans. Far from being "the Path of what I was going to do anyway", they are very challenging for players, and lead to a very distinct experience. I am pretty disappointed that V5 threw all that away 😕
@@theoldcountry AH yes, "the path of what I was going to do anyways" - I've seen that thrown around a lot. You know what's absolutely irritating about that? The fact that instead of rectifying the problem, V5 made it exponentially worse! They presented the Paths of Enlightenment as strictly antagonistic philosophies that players aren't meant to follow. As far as I know, they neglected to explain how the paths of enlightenment actually work, and prevent the NPC's from becoming fully dominated by their inner Beast. Like, if they can throw away their humanity and retain control, then why can't the players?
@@Nyrufa Paths not existing is the key change to bring me to the game. While paths seem very interesting and profound i haven't had it that way. In my experience it was used to have the game easier. Easier in the sense that the mechanical resource (blood) does not directly inpose difficulties on the maintaining of the character, humans are not inportant anymore. I really do like paths being just antagonistic, if newcomers want to dive in power fantasy they will. It has been very frustrating trying to balance players who get power fantasy from horror and those who like the drama of it. It's very frustrating to the power fantasy player to be killed by meddling kids, or having to twinst their actions enough for not being disturbed by the narrator. V5 has made easy for me to pick a group in which I fit the best, social relationships and human drama. What they've done to paths seems like a big loss for those good players who can give paths the depth it deserves.
@@azielmelo7756 Humans were never important to begin with. You're not playing a human, you're playing a vampire. You're lurking behind the scenes, manipulating human society from the shadows as you feed on them to sustain your own existence. The Path of Humanity is a flawed pipe dream only ascribed to by vampires who are still young enough, that the full gravity of their curse has not dawned on them. Paths of Enlightenment are not simply an alternative play style, they are a necessity for any vampire who wishes to retain their sanity in the long term. Before 5th edition, the books even outright tell the player that the Path of Humanity is not sustainable, losing your Humanity is inevitable, and those who follow a Path of Enlightenment are wise enough to realize this.
Agreed completely. It is so disappointing to see the Tzimisce as a clan step down from one of the most versatile vessels for character expression to basically "Hoarders who like to control stuff, because". It completely ignores what a lot of players liked about the clan and puts a focus lens on what could be but a small fraction of the whole clan identity and culture. Much of the verb line of change, adaptation and trascendance was lost.
I get that they tried to simplify and streamline a lot in V5, but i cant help but think that they could have done it without scrapping the extremely rich background lore and history the clan had. It is not even backwards compatible, really. The new discipline changes just stick a bunch of plot holes and questions into the role the clan used to have up to the modern nights that only work if you either dont know the previous lore, or just throw it all in the trash and make new stuff up yourself.
It stops feeling like simplification and just feels more like a restrictive and lazier version of what we had before.
I feel that! Speaking of which, i think the "Clan verbs" idea is not great because:
- Clans don't have a monopoly on their associated actions. I mean, what, only Tremere study? Only Tzimisce like to control things?
- sticking to the verbs encourages stereotypical portrayal of Clans, as opposed to nuanced individuals who are also part of a Clan, and were probably embraced because of their potential to embody Clan culture (and be an asset), but also have, and do their own thing.
I remember reading the Anarch book and finding it laughable that a group of people with Protean, especially after the change to make Vicissitude into a Protean amalgam, were unable to assist a trans person with their gender identity when it’s just a predator type away. It’s indicative of this surface-level political signaling that seems to take priority over the clan cultures that existed for, as you said, decades before V5.
I think your Brujah Primogen sample video is a good way to describe the tonal shift between V20 and V5.
Oh, on the note of things we read in V5, I remember reading this short passage in the Anarch book in which a young Diva, recently embraced no less, brags about seducing a centuries old Nosferatu, Seneschal to a Tzimisce Prince, and how she turned them against one another. This is such a puerile, childish take on things. There are very slim chances this would have ever happened, let alone be done in an effortless manner, as presented by the character in the book.
But... of course it worked, right, because all those centuries-old spymasters, information-hoarding, sneaky and manipulative Nosferatu want is to be loved... and to feel pretty for a change, right?
Oh, please, a centuries old Seneschal being seduced by a clueless Neonate Diva? SERIOUSLY? Not in a million years! Even if we strip away the context of Clan culture and the way clans are very careful of each other, knowing, based on stereotypes, what the other is capable of, a hundreds of years old Seneschal would not fall for the clumsy manipulations of a new embrace, especially someone who is barely a Neonate. What, did the Seneschal fall in love so hard he decided the best way to manifest that affection is to expose himself to the greatest risk imaginable, by betraying a Tzimisce Prince he'd served for centuries... just to earn or maintain the affection of a young Diva? REALLY? That's so dumb!
V5 assumes Elders are stupid for one reason or another and... I'm really not a fan of this approach. A major aspect of the horror of Vampire is that these Elders are COMPETENT (if eccentric and weird), their servants are COMPETENT, their experiences over multiple lifetimes, coupled with their detachment from the humanity they once had... makes them very calculated monsters, whose resources far exceed anything the disposable Fledgeling/Neonate protagonists have to offer them, which is why, if anything, these youngsters fight the Jyhad using tech, intel, and, of course, aggression/destruction. They cannot compete with the Elders using the same skillset, because the oppressive "capes" have refined their skills over centuries, influence, bullshit detection, seduction, patience! These newer generations are but pawns on the boards of the Elders, whether those Elders are Camarilla, Sabbat or Anarchs, and the fight isn't easy, it's desperate, it's bloody, they can only hope that with enough planning and dedication and effort, something better can emerge out of the ashes of the currently power-structures.
So, yeah, there's a tonal discrepancy not just between previous editions and V5, but within V5 itself.
Bro, it is not worth trying to reconcile V5 lore with V20 lore because V5 is pretty much a soft reboot of the WoD. The designer and writers at Paradox have gone on record sayin that they are not gonna delve to much into the lore and metaplot in V5 because it is "overwhelming for new players", so most of that 25+ years of lore is not touched upon or retconned in V5. It just kind of begs the question why they decided to bring back VtM but not expand the metaplot when we already had VtR as the less lore heavy game.
Yup, agree here. I must say, I think they were just trying to stay away from "sore subjects" that the history of Vampire often includes, because otherwise, ok, I've had to read all of these books for years and years to get a good view of both the bigger picture and the finer details, but nowadays there are so many lore channels on youtube or other platforms. The lore has never been so accessible. So, I don't get how listening to awesome short stories with interesting characters, within the themes of this setting, makes life difficult for new players. I am very confused in this regard. 😐
@@theoldcountry Agreed. I get that thier were some problematic aspects in the old lore but Paradox really didn't need to throw the baby with bath water buy just ignoring most of it. But I just really hate thier excuse that lore "gatekeeps new players", when the lore and metaplot was what attracted players to VtM rather then VtR.
I was born when Revised was released and my introduction to the WoD was through Bloodlines which I played in 2017. I didn't even really get into the lore of VtM and started playing the table top until 2019, when Bloodlines 2 was announced but I was able to get a pretty good grasp on the setting by watching lore vids and reading White Wolf wiki. So I just don't buy that excuse at all.
@Paul Gauthier Also read your reply to SmugGrog 98 and though I'm trying not to be mean and keep opinions regarding their current business practices to myself, it certainly looks like current Vampire is trying to follow all these other RPG trends that seem to bring in a lot of financial gain and are super popular. I get it, writers and developers have to make a living off of these products, but... some choices seem to have been made even against that result. I guess I just don't really understand where they're going with this :D But yeah, I kinda feel what you're saying :P
@@theoldcountry On a more positive note. I actually do like the flavor of the Tzimisce in V5 since they feel like the Dark Ages version of the clan but in Modern Nights, the "Dracula vibes" are strong and I really like the discipline spread of Dominate, Animalism, and Vicissitude. I just find the idea of a independent bloodline of Tzimisce that have sacrificed thier more spiritual side for more control and mastery of the physical world, they are the ultimate masters of those that reside in thier land, having dominion over the minds of men and beasts and can shape thier forms to thier will.
I also love the potential conflict between the Fiends in the Sabbat vs the Independent Dragons, with some neonates also choosing to join the Anarchs to. The funny thing, is that your idea for making the V5 Tzimisce match up better to the V20 lore is pretty much the route I went in introduce it as bloodline in V20 to. The only difference is that instead of going with the Basarab, I went with the bloodlines origins coming from a new revenant family created by Dracula and they also don't view the use of Vicissitude as taboo and view as simply as another tool to be used to assert thier will and view the Old Clan as fool for not using it but they also find the main clans over reliance on the discipline to be distasteful also.
I just hate that Vicissitude is a amalgam of Protean and Dominate and I really dislike thier bane and compulsion. Sure the Tzimisce have always been possessive and territorial as a clan but it shouldn't be a mechanical thing, since just like you said in your video it just makes them Malkavians with a hording derangement.
@@smuggrog9821 This! ☝ Agree completely. I mean, it wouldn't be the first time the Tzimisce undergo a clan-wide schism (like Constantinople Fiends vs Old Country Metamorphosists). In this case it can be the Independent/Anarch "Draculas" vs the Sabbat "Traditionalists" 😁
The current state of the Clan can easily be explained without removing continuity, and I think it brings a lot of flavor having multiple Tzimisce factions/subcultures in a game set in the current nights 🥰
V5 is just Disneys WoD.
I fully agree... An anonymous Lasombra... Even if my clan was better treated...😈
Thank you so much for answering my, especially so fast! I’m glad that I am not alone in feeling that V5’s approach on “appropriating” certain elements from the previous continuity is quite dreadful. I am also very sorry for subjecting you to this😂
Again, I appreciate this a lot, and one final question: Do you have a Patreon?
Ah, don't worry about a thing, I would have subjected myself to this read, eventually :D. The lore-seeker's pursuit dictates it. I actually feel relieved, and I'm pretty glad I got the opportunity to share my view on this.
Also, no, no Patreon for now... or the near future (or maybe never at all). It has already been a while since I started the new job, and sadly, I still haven't found a safe solution for making these episodes every week. There might be times when I won't be able to post for... quite a while. I would absolutely hate myself if I took someone's hard-earned money, knowing I can't deliver the content that got them supporting me in the first place, whether it's a subscription thing or a one time donation :( Not to mention, this is a labor or love. Knowing that these episodes are fun for anyone who gives them a listen is reward enough, really :D I just hope I can keep up the good job :P
I appreciate the thought IMMENSELY though, wow, I never even imagined anyone would want to support The Old Country in that way. So, I thank you very much for the kindness! :D
I completely agree with you.
Sad times for best clan.
Yeah, I am always looking forward to your videos. ❤️
While I find some of the new lore concerning the Beckoning, the changes of the members of the Sabbat and the Camarilla and the rise of the Anarchs to a more influential faction quite good, I really don't like the redcons to the clan histories and the changes from very specific and defining clan disciplines to those amalgams.
Especially for the Tzimisce, since they are my favorite.
Yes I like new lore too but see it as part of rest of lore came before
I'm happy you're enjoying the channel 🥰
Oh, make no mistake, I'm pretty intrigued that the Anarchs broke away from the Camarilla. It feels like the Cam had it coming for a while, ever since the Gangrel first left. Given recent events, it makes sense the dynamics between sects change a bit. And the Lasombra have always had a little branch of Antitribu. I mean, Lucita herself was, (marginally) Camarilla for quite a while (even if only to spite her Sire 🤣)
But yeah, too many changes on all fronts and really shouldn't have ignored compatibility with previous lore 😔
As someone who is sorta getting into VtM, I am turned off from V5 for same reason I am turned off from VtR.
They confuse and complicate the narrative I learned from the video games and V20 is compatible with the mountains of WoD stuff in case I ever wanted to splice the settings, meanwhile the V5 and VtR have less fleshed out universes.
How do you feel about portraying Vicissitude as an otherwordly spiritual infection that spread to the clan? The books that tried to add this concept to the lore were VERY controversial back in the day, so much that they dropped the concept completely in future editions.
I personally think is a cool idea, but not for one of the main clans, maybe the idea could be recycled for a bloodline, something like a Lovecraftian themed Baali bloodline that deals with extra-dimensional entities and try to corrupt the world for their eldritch masters.
I don't have a problem with that in the slightest. I'm currently playing a Koldun who also make use of Vicissitude, and the Malkavian of the coterie is on guard around my protagonist, since the voices keep telling her I'm diseased, infected, unclean, under the influence of... something. At some point I gave my storyteller the go-ahead to do anything he wants to my character, even gave suggestions for what horrible little things could happen in order to create some body-horror. One evening, the character involuntarily grew mouths in the palms of her hands, and it was scary, but that was the only instance of Vicissitude acting on its own... just enough to create fear and confusion, which it did. But then... silence!
I guess I'd encourage the player and storyteller to talk about this first and set some boundaries that both of them can agree upon, considering how frequently or badly/intensely the corruption manifests, if it comes with derangements, and if it is, indeed, an otherworldly parasitic being. Its origin doesn't have to be known, really. I think an illness is so much more frightening when nothing is known about it.
Personally, I'd maintain the mystery throughout the game, revealing more about the corruption towards the end of the chronicle. If handled and portrayed unwisely, themes of eldrich corruprion will quickly overpower the political, more mundane themes. I mean, who cares about manipulative Toreadors and sneaky Nosferatu trying to overthrow Prince What's-his-face if you have an alien parasite inside of you? It's body horror, for sure, but it risks derailing the game, making it all about that.
But, if this is done wisely, not too often, it works like a charm! 😌
Owing to the inspirations for Clan Tzimisce I have always thought this Clan would have its own form of necromantic sorcery. I am basing this idea on the links between this Clan, the novel Dracula and the Necroscope series of novels. I would love your thoughts.
I have not read the Necroscope series so I will have to do some research before I open my mouth in that regard :D, however, I can say there are Fiends who practice the Path of Death and the Soul, Sascha Vykos, for example. Some of them do become Necrotomists. In an upcoming episode I'm actually hoping to look at the culture and practices behind the different types of sorceries in V:tM, but I can give you a little spoiler :P
Considering that Necromancy, at least the Giovanni Necromancy, relies on the practitioner's systematic violation of taboos, often involving human remains (when it comes to the Bone path and some rituals), I think older, experienced Tzimisce (who might have had a non-lethal encounter or two with a Giovanni), would actually have a fairly high chance of practicing this discipline without completely shattering their own mortal code. Their pursuit of Metamorphosis also relies on a systematic violation of taboos (mainly related to the living/undead body, constant reshaping, acclimatization to intense, agonizing pain etc.), leaving behind all traces of human behavior and morality on the road to transcendence. I think if any clan (not bloodline!) other than the Giovanni could practice Necromancy, it would be the Tzimisce, especially when it comes not to the spirit or the dead (Sepulchre Path), or descent into the lands of the dead (Ash Path), but the physical remains, the flesh and bones of the dead (Bone Path).
I mean... if any of my players comes up with an interesting reason why their Tzimisce protagonist knows and practices such exotic disciplines, I'll gladly allow it (depending on the type of chronicle as well). Same goes for other clans having Vicissitude :D
Buuut, for the most part, keeping true to what I said in the episode, I'll let each clan have its own "brand" :P Necromancy is the bread and butter of other Clans. No poaching! :))
@Paul Gauthier Oh, undoubtedly there were a lot of Vampire products being effectively thrown at players around that time, and as we've seen on the channel, some were of... not great quality.
V20 brought all of those events/lore down to accessible form, in a small number of supplement books, while maintaining backward compatibility with Revised, for those who enjoy a ton of lore and fluff. It really seemed to make the best of both worlds to me 🤔
But hey, I can totally understand what you are saying. Even for me it was a bit much at times 😋
Koldunic Sorcery
This reminds me of a video I saw of someone who worked at White Wolf who went on a rant on how the new generation that is coming up, aka the ones who made v5, have absolutely no creative spark whatsoever. He said they only care about one of two things: making money or giving their political opinion to people who never asked for it.
He even explained that they often buy the rights to works of art and then completely butcher them with stupid changes because they have no talent of their own. Then, expect people to give them the same praise they gave the original creator and get downright indignant when they don't.
@@Kryptic245 That is so sad 😞 And this out of control "activism in everything" kind of attitude is very unpleasant. At least, it's so on the nose, so obvious and self-righteous. There's many ways in which people can express their views and convictions without shoving them down other people's throats 😔 I mean... ultimately it's an RPG, it's a storytelling game which should allow players to explore a multitude of views and stances, without judgement, while making it clear that the writers don't necessarily adhere to the beliefs or encourage the behaviors of the characters within their books. The writers ARE NOT their books. The players are NOT their characters! Why don't people understand that? While it's considered the epitomy of poor taste to play an older character who still holds outdated beliefs, it's fine for V5 to tell me how to maximize bleed in a supplement mostly related to toxic vampire romance? Really?
I guess at this point I'm just confused 😕
The Nů crowd smacks again.
This new/nů developments leave me exasperated, although hardly surprised.
The developments, yes. I can't believe WoD doesn't learn from past mistakes, really. I'm actually checking out Lore by Night's new video while replying to you, about how one of the W5 artists used a real person's image to create artwork for the book (and it's not the first time either). Damn it, you can't just take someone's image, without their permission, and put them in the book, even if you're doing it as an easter-egg, because you're a fan. I get it, I get that it's not coming from a malevolent intention, but.. still not ok. And this has all happened before!
In nWoD, in Hunter: the Vigil, I think it was, someone just traced over Dante from DMC3 and instead of his sword, Rebellion, he had a Winchester rifle on his shoulder, but it was clearly him.
Gah, do they never learn?
I seriously don't understand what the people in charge of these new editions are doing, because they keep making the same mistakes, it seems...
*Exsanguinates innocent mortal in frustration and loses Humanity*
hah I totaly agree with the premise of the video. But I must admit I see a great irony, when in one moment you refer to the new lore as Malkavians with hoarding derangement, and in the next you kinda show some tendency for lore hoarding :D.
Well, now, I didn't say hoarding is completely beneath Tzimisce 🤣
*shoves stack of lore books in a closet stuffed full of them and barely gets door closed*
Ah, this comment made my morning, because I've never thought of it that way 😁
On a more serious note, and I'm saying this both due to personal preference and in general: I don't think having tons and tons of lore scattered throughout dozens of costly books is the way to go, and I think a neatly wtitten, pocket-sized VtM would've been amazing. However, pulling the plug on that previous lore altogether... stops creating and detailing the social images of the clans, the factions within said clans, their hierarchies and so on. Just a bit more lore detailing these things would've been enough 😔
It always felt like to me after playing V5 for a good amount of time over the years that they want to bottle neck themselves? Like it follows a consistent formula, and write very little concerning Vampirism and the general setting outside of western culture. Last thing that was sort of new and unique was Oblivion.
If you understand what I mean?
THAT CAN OF WORMS ASIDE!
I never even knew Vlad Tepes was apart of some Tzemisce counterculture! let alone any counter culture to the Old Clan aside Sabbat Tzimisce sort of?
I know about how the Tzimisce got along with Lasombra, but I only really understand it from the Lasombra perspective.
Having historical figures be so integrated with the politics and story is so cool. Would love to hear more about him in the future~
To explain the counter-culture idea very briefly:
most Tzimisce joined the Sabbat. Dracula remained Independent, using all sects, and pinning them against each other for his own gain.
Despite his knowledge (we can even call it mastery) of both Vicissitude and Koldunism and his involvement in both the mistic practices and the political moves of the clan, he retained his Humanity 😲
He effectively forced a Tzimisce Anarch to embrace him 😳 and then diablerized his Sire. Dracula is a real force when it comes to violating the taboos of the Tzimisce. I don't know if there is one rule that he hadn't broken. 😁
@@theoldcountry That man's a force of nature
100% I am of your regard to this lackluster crapfest called V5. I'll be a bit more brash.
I can totally understand the feeling. Honestly, I thought that... as time passes, the divide and the feeling of alienation will diminish or subside, but nope, it's beginning to feel more and more like a wound that doesn't close or heal. I mean, hell, I don't really make V5 episodes, but even those who do, and those who run V5 games (other Vampire channels I keep up with), are bitter about the "ethics of the path" of V5 writers and marketing (or lack thereof), so you know something is off.
But hey, I like to think I have a healthy dose of patient and carefully-scrutinized self-doubt, so I keep thinking maybe I'm in the wrong, or at least... I'm open to the possibility that I might have missed something about V5 that is great and just waiting to be discovered.
Regardless, I'll keep making episodes about the Vampire I know and love, extending hospitality to any who seek it (like a good little Voivode) and letting my dear listeners make up their own mind about what the lore of V:tM means to them. "Metamorphosis" is a very intimate and individual pursuit after all, and I do my best to respect and consider everyone's opinion and preferred practices (and by this I mean edition :P).
But... yeah, I so feel you!
I agree
I started playing VtM with 1st Edition, I still have all my books from each edition. V5 is infuriatingly bad.
Oh wow, you're basically a VtM Elder, as it were! 😈 An Anterevisedluvian who's seen the rise and fall of all editions! 🤯 So, I've heard a lot of people saying V5 took the game back to its First Edition roots, without the needless fluff of the Revised era. What are your thoughts on this? Here you are as someone who's played 1st Edition, and you still think V5 is bad 😔 Was this edition made only for... Fledgelings? (To keep up the Age/Status comparison)
@@theoldcountry The setting of 1st was good but the mechanics where clunky hence why it lasted less than a year. 2nd improved the mechanics however in the later years the setting was plagued by rediculous power creep, Revised perfected both rules and the setting however the meta plot introduced by then Developer Justin Achilles left few options but to end the game with Gehenna. V20 gave us a rich setting with balanced rules and the most complete rule book WW had ever produced up to that time. V20 was perfect having a great and balanced rule set absent power creep and a meta plot and therefore a new edition unnecessary in my opinion. V5 did not give me a 1st edition vibe, though I will not discount others who felt that it did. In my opinion, for what little it is worth, the decision to alter and neuter several of the clans initially turned me off. Hecata?? The Ministry?? Tzimisce without Vicissitude?? I felt the writting was subpar and the decision to interject real world politics and to attack fans that voiced their concerns to be the final straw for me. I will admit that I thought the hunger system was brilliant and should have been part of the system from the beginning. For those that enjoy V5, you be you and keep playing. I'll stick with V20.
@@ChrisHolman Very well said, especially regarding the neutering of clans. I was genuinely shocked by that. I mean, a lot of people online seem to think the "old guard" of VtM bashes on V5 for no reason or something, just because we're reticent to change and, I donno, we have gate-keeping tendencies, but, personally, I was genuinely shocked by all the changes that were made to the setting, the disciplines, the metaplot, various mechanics, all of that. And I'm curious if you would agree with me:
I was initially excited for V5, and I wanted to love and support it. I wanted it to be good. Reading the book, in my imagination, would've been something akin to returning to the arms of a kind and loyal lover, or hanging out with a good old friend, someone you know, trust, and can't wait to see again.
But, as soon as I flipped through the book I felt a sense of alienation and confusion. There was no sense of familiarity there, not even a bit. The lover had given their heart to someone else. The friend stood me up and sent their cousin to hang with me instead, out of some distant sense of pity 🥲
Luckily, all of the previous editions are always on the table, available to anyone who wishes to play them 😁
@ChrisHolman @theoldcountry I can't agree more with you two. And i'm not an antediluvian of VtM, i technically started just before V4 came out ; but since i just buried myself into the WoD (Mostly VtM and things related to it in other Splats ; though i do have good knowledge of other Splats even a bit in Demon the Fallen even if that game is insufferable almost as much as V5), and i tried so hard to like V5 ... but i can't. It's just not VtM, it's an unassumed reboot. (we can see that they go for rebooting things when we look at H5 and of course W5 which clearly announce that it is a reboot at the beginning of the book)
Do you actually find v5 cannon? the setting, the powers etc seems way worse. They made nosferatu leppers instead of monsters....
Jack I like lore like tremere pyramid and lasabro join camellia and hectare but I don't like deciple anagram also banes/ curse changes
That's just the problem. It's not that I find it or don't find it canon, but I'm actively having difficulty reading it, because it feels like such a step down from what was before :( And make no mistake, I would have loved to enjoy it and be excited about new releases, but... it's just not for me.
And yes, regarding the Nosferatu, you are absolutely right! Their curse is that they are monstrously hideous. Depending on their Brood (their lineage), yes, some of them exhibit leprosy, like the Turkish Lazarenes, but others have translucent skin, like the French Parisii, others have individual malformations or growths depending on their habitat/environment, like Gutka, the Salt Queen, who spent time in mines and was slowly encrusted by salt crystals :D
The Nosferatu can have a very wide range of hideousness. While I absolutely love how the Clan pays tribute to 1922's Nosferatu, eine Symphonie des Grauens, I think having variations to the "traditional look" is also very nice
@@theoldcountry what your opinion around tremere stuff lasombra and hectare also beckoning I hope they do touch more on what going on in middle east?
I'll be as brief as I can: the current metaplot is, to some degree, interesting, especially when it doesn't throw the old lore out the window. The Lasombra, for instance, have always had an Antitribu branch (albeit small), so we can assume because of the Beckoning and the "disappearance" of the Sabbat, that Antitribu branch rose to power. The Hecata are all of the Necromancer Clans or Bloodlines brought together (though I can only imagine what might have brought together vampires who have been hating each other with a passion for hundreds of years). At least they clearly distinguish between the "families" which make up the clan, so again, ties into the lore, so these particular Clans/examples don't feel so remakey :D
There are things that work in V5, there are things V5 does very well, mostly interesting mechanics, but there is a plethora of lore and Clans/bloodlines/older mechanics that it either left out or re-wrote in a way that really doesn't do them any justice, and it's something I just can't really... get over and like the game :(
This is about as much as I can reply for now, given how I couldn't bring myself to actually read the V5 books from cover to cover (like I usually do). I really wish I could have been excited about this edition, but all of these seemingly arbitrary decisions regarding what is clearly a new direction for Vampire have done nothing but push me away.
With that in mind, no grudge towards the roleplaying people who enjoy V5! :D Even though it's not for me, I'm happy is has captured the attention and imagination of so many people! :P
@@theoldcountry what about tremere stuff and tremere body and small stuff about timzice fonder the eldest?
While I don't agree with how much v5 in general has nerfed, I can see some lore reasoning for why more clans can access prior "signature" disciplines
If you consider, mechanically, that a kindred can learn disciplines outside her clan but that it comes at a significantly higher cost, it almost makes sense that a particularly inclined Gangrel taking Vicissitude actually wouldn't spend enough points to attain a Zulu form, so a Story Teller can still treat that as a Tzimisce rite of passage in their chronicles, if that makes sense
I see your point on this one, I agree, and, mechanically, everything is ultimately allowed, as long as players and storytellers shake hands on it, and it makes their game fun for all involved. But setting and narration also need to be in step with those mechanics, to follow along. And this is where things become confusing for me:
Make no mistake, I'm not saying signature disciplines should always be "locked" behind isolationist, xenophobic clan cultures, but I am saying that learning another clan's signature discipline is, ultimately, the very act of learning their practices and culture, whether stolen from them (through observation, followed by trial and error, if such a thing is possible) or taught by members of said clan as reward for a certain service/favor (much more likely to happen)
Having those signature disciplines creates distinct power-dynamics between the clans and sects, thus, they are an important part of the setting and the way each clan plays the Jyhad. In a sect such as the Sabbat, where blood is regularly exchanged, everyone can learn the first dots of Vicissitude, Obeah, Protean etc., and, it goes without saying, anyone interested in furthering that discipline, even though it's out of clan, can do so. Why?
Because, in the Sabbat they are surrounded by potential mentors, of Clan Tzimisce/Salubri/Gangrel, who probably won't object to teaching a "Brother/Sister" a skill that might save their unlife and keep their Pack strong. Because Pack culture is placed above Clan Culture. This is not the case for other Sects. And wouldn't you know it, this is the exact Sect V5 left out, the Sect which would have justified amalgams the most 🥲
But, you see, when the discipline is just... given, written down mechanically, without the cultural weight, without context, as a practice that isn't really explained very well, it makes things confusing. If all it took for kindred to develop disciplines was "playing around a little bit and seeing if it works", then everyone should be running around with a plethora of custom disciplines, or combinations of disciplines, to the point where no one knows what clan anyone is anymore, whereas the game operates by the logic that clan practices are passed down, from master to pupil, from sire to childe. They are in the blood, they are, at the same time, empowering and oppressive to younger bloods (like any real life traditional cultural practices, really)
So, I agree with you that the mechanics can be justified and players/storytellers can still work with these amalgams very well, and run a solid game that everyone is going to enjoy 😉
I dislike, however, the fact that some clans have their distinct cultural practices... externalized, and that one Sect which could have explained exactly how these amalgams came into existence is nowhere in sight.
I guess, what I'm still asking to this day is: "What really are amalgams? How did they come to be?"
Honestly I prefer v5 mechanicaly to v20. And I consider the lore a non issue because that's always varies by table and you can still draw from the other editions for lore.
I dont really see why the older lore can't be cannon to v5. Alot of lore exsists separately from mechanics and thus is as cannon to your VTM games as your table wants it to be.
All the lore has always been written from an in character perspective with your st deciding the truth
Undoubtedly, there are things that V5 does very well, and I'm not saying that it's a bad system, just that it offers a lot less by comparison to previous editions.
Hmm, I know what you are saying in regards to the lore, but quite a bit of it is actually presented out of character, for everyone to use, at their tables, as they see fit, in clanbooks, chronicle books, city books. I like having the option of not integrating something in my games, but to not even be given that option though it already exists... I don't get it. They had a huge wealth of archetypes, character creation options, clan culture etc. and they chose not to use that. I don't understand why.
Tell you something, though. Because of that huge preexisting lore, I've been playing VtM for more than a decade, and I've always found something new and fun to do, a new story to tell, within the same setting. And if I wasn't playing it, I was reading one book or another. V5 has only been around for a few years. I'm eager to see where it goes next and if it can fascinate its players as long as the previous editions have 🤔
V20 is perfection, V5 is garbage
Don't forget the Golden Rule from the core rulebook anything that doesn't work for your chronicle can be changed at storyteller's discretion
I'm in a weird place as someone who got into this game pre-V5 but didn't actually play until V5. For me, though I liked the old lore a lot, but it felt daunting to get into and the mechanics of things were hard to understand at times. This lead me to constantly half-create characters, then become unable to flesh them out or have them feel unique rather than "with the clan stereotype or against it". I love a lot of the things V5 has done simply because they have made things more minimalistic feeling, if that makes sense?
Hunger removed some of the slog of count BP and added interesting flavor. I initially hated amalgams but they have grown on me. I think Tzimisce have gone from a clan I thought was cool but would never play because I couldn't really think of a compelling character to make, to one of my favorites because they are no longer hard tied to the Sabbat. You can make all sorts of not completely inhuman Tzimisce without feeling like you are making an exception to an exception to an exception just to play the clan in a non-Sabbat game. My first character was a knowledge hording history professor, trying to rekindle the old Koldunic ways of the clan for their sire who had fled the collapsing Sabbat. Again, just my perspective, but to me it feels better to have every clan more 'playable' in more scenarios. Tzimisce, Lasombra, Banu Haqim, Followers of Set, Ravnos, Salubri, and the Necromancy Coalition all seem more playable in an average game (especially for a beginner to rp like me).
As far as the lore implications of making unique disciplines amalgams, you can always elude to other things. "That Dragon tells me their art is as simple as Dominating their own body. But that's preposterous, you can't look in the mirror and dominate yourself. So what exactly in their body are they commanding?" I feel like by trimming back all the lore and metaplot, it just leaves room for the ST to insert whatever rumor or myths they want from old cannon into their games. I personally would never let anyone just learn the clan specific amalgams at random without a teacher, that way they keep their uniqueness and exclusivity. Doesn't matter if you have Protean and Dominate as a Gangrel, you'll never learn Vicissitude without tasting a Tzimisce's vitae first, same with Chimestry, Obeah, and the rest.
Either way I appreciate your thoughts in this video!
I wrote this while sleep deprived, and for some reason thought I watched the whole video when I had actually only watched half of it 😅
I do agree with you on the point that writing in a new faction of more humane, counter culture Tzimisce would have been great though!
@@Interionisim No problem in any way, and I appreciate you taking the time to write this lengthy comment and share your thoughts 🥰 It seems youtube is a little sleep deprived too, because I'm only seeing this 3 months later... for some unknown reason 😔
I find the question "What exactly in their body are they commanding?" amazing! Oh wow, this opens the narrative gates towards a body-horror story of crushing proportions, sort of giving it the fear and corrupting wonder Vicissitude evoked in previous editions. See? The Companion should have asked its readers more questions like this! 👍 And its a single question.
Sometimes, instead of offering a half-assed explanation, its better to inspire player creativity with a solid, frightening question 😁
@@theoldcountry Haha no worries! And yeah, sometimes it's the questions that the books makes you ask that lead to the best stories/concepts!
What they did to malks and tzimisce is what turned me away from v5. I just wish they would of kept the depth and interesting parts of the Tzimisce. Instead of stripping them down and making them supernatural hoarders. Its just disrespectful. They're the vampire equivalent of transhumanists but that whole idea is gone in v5.
Hmmm, at this point I know I'm bashing on V5 and kinda beating a dead horse too, but I will keep beating away if you allow me 😁 So, HOW, WHY, did they boil down all of the interesting parts to a monochrome, monotone, hoardy landlord/gang leader archetype? I can see how those archetypes are fun to play, they're probably empowering in their own way, but... there was so much variation to the character archetypes before this, the "branches" of the clan, and so many interesting concepts to explore, each different in its own way. I feel like all the mystery is just gone now, and the wealth of Clan culture is reduced to 1 or 2 archetypes, removed from any sense of history and tradition. Well, I know the Clan is already in decline (according to the history and lore) and the New World fiends are disconnected from their ancestral culture, but the writers didn't have to disconnect the players too, if you know what I mean 😂 For all its Fleshcraft, this Clan had a well-defined and still very permissive/inclusive shape, a well-defined personality and form. Now... it feels like an amorphous blob. It can turn into anything the players want because... it's nothing in particular anymore 😔 Kinda sad, and, like you said, disrespectful indeed!
Should players have access to vicissitude or “rare” disciplines? In all fairness could you not say the same thing about just normal protean? Potence as an example, everyone seems to thinks this is a power any caitiff/ghoul could get easily. As someone who has done powerlifting, I would say to unlock potence you need to condition your nervous system. Only through conditioning your body to express maximum force can you unlock potence. Now how many people have conditioned their nervous systems/bodies to use max force.
Vicissitude, protean and serpentis are different applications of the same thing. Advanced users of protean sometimes find their bodies shifting without their consent, reacting directly to their emotions, bringing them into embarrassing situations. They can also combine human and animal body parts to become a man-beast(werewolf or were anything). Other abilities include becoming one with the earth, turning into mist, turning into fire. If protean can do all that what is the difference between these three different abilities. When I listening to people discuss the disciplines of vicissitude, protean and serpentis they all seem like the same thing.
Also I agree on the lore in v5 vs v20 they could have done a better job.
Nice! Thank you for the comment and the insight, I had no idea powerlifting requires a conditioning of the nervous system. That's super interesting!
Hmmm, I do agree with you here, that learning a new discipline shouldn't be effortless, a walk in the park, something that just happens. It occurs to me that I might have misjudged the physical disciplines in this regard, by thinking that they just... develop naturally over time, the more they are used 🤔 But casual use wouldn't exactly... enhance their effects, that's for sure.
You make a solid point comparing Vicissitude with Protean and Serpentis, but it illustrates my idea precisely: Protean and Serpentis are also signature disciplines (at least in previous editions), and are thus practiced almost exclusively by the clan that developed them.
Some disciplines are common - no clan claims them as their own signature practice, and they are, in fact, practiced by a large number of clans/ bloodlines -, like Potence, Celerity, Fortitude and hey, even the signature discipline of the Nosferatu, Obfuscate, is being used by no less than 6 other clans/bloodlines besides them (City Gangrel, Malkavian, Assamite, Setite, Tlacique, Baali, Obertus Revenants and maybe others I've missed).
You are absolutely correct to say that that the same argument can be made for all signature disciplines, and even though Protean, Vicissitude, and Serpentis are similar in function (they are shape-shifting disciplines), they are the product of different clan cultures, and thus, bear different meanings and uses. Gangrel adapt to their environment, as nomads par excellence, Setites resemble the dark god Apep, and the Tzimisce sculpt flesh like clay, tyrannically, often using this discipline to terrorize their enemies.
I can also see the common... roots of these 3 disciplines, but the fact that they broke free from those roots and are distinct practices makes the game so much more flavorful and interesting :D
But, yeah, you make a very good point here. And now I'm going to look into powerlifting a bit more 😁 (because you've made me very curious)