Thanks for such a clear and educational journey through Thunderbird's history, and for explaining why eliminating all that technical debt is so important! Great video, Alex.
Keep up the great work! I've been using Thunderbird since the first release and it just works! After watching this, two things are always going to be consistent for me as a user: 1.) I don't mind the long time between updates. I'd prefer a product that works perfectly verses premature releases that have issues. 2.) I guess call me old school, but I like the interface as-is. I'm so used to it that it doesn't bother me at all. I'd rather stick to TB than use any of the other alternatives out there. Find me another currently supported email app that runs on Windows, Mac and Linux, plus can easily move your user profile between OS platforms!
I appreciate Thunderbird and am grateful that it will continue to thrive. I need my email to be simple and so far TB has facilitated that. (although I've let it get too cluttered. That's my fault.) People might complain about the interface of TB but what is worse that the on-line interfaces by most e-mail providers? I still have Earthlink and that interface is just no freakin' way.
I didnt watch the whole video but what the Alessandro DIDNT tell you is that Thunderbird and Firefox are actually modernised versions of Netscape Navigator and Netscape Communicator. Mozilla's Seamonkey is a browser/email client package just like Communicator was. Seamonkey's email has many similarities to that of Thunderbird.
New and innovative UI may look good at beginning, but end of day it may completely kill entire project. Very good example is ZynAddSubFX softsynth. People complained about its dated UI. New generations wished standard single window UI like all cool VST plugins do. What happened was disaster, ZynAddSubFX is just so complex synthesizer that single window UI made things even worse. Its main user now develops Yoshimi, fork of ZynAddSubFX. Yoshimi uses old and dated UI with minor tweaks, but no one complains anymore after Zyn disaster. There are reasons, why serious desktop stuff may look old and dated - it is more important that things work and do their job.
So clearly explained! After hearing your thoughts and intended direction for Thunderbird, I am so very glad you are managing product design. I now have confidence in Thunderbird’s future and I’m looking forward and excited to see it evolve with the care it needs and deserves. Thank you 🙏 ❤
I have used Thunderbird as my main email client for over a decade, but have tried out many competitors. In my experience most modern email clients seem to prioritize form over function which has made them almost useless, but not Thunderbird. With all the tools for automation, such as various filtering functions, Thunderbird has made checking emails much more pleasant. I agree that Thunderbirds interface can be very inconsistent and looks dated, and should be updated but that must not mean that Thunderbird will loose its level of functionality.
@fergusmorris5288 open source projects don't have the same incentive as commercial software companies to sunset features because the analytics show only 10% of people use them. An interface is merely the means of accessing features. But it can make it easier or harder to access them, and that's why it's so important to not fuck it up, and that's why change is necessary.
6:41 Having witnessed how in Firefox Mozilla has padded almost every element with (I'd claim unnecessary) whitespace and deprecated and hidden the Dense-option, please do not strip the option to have a tight and compact UI from users. Yes, there's nothing wrong with making that option opt-in but please do not remove it.
Agreed. For me, Firefox's UI is _too_ tight and the first thing I do when I install it is to switch to one of the slightly more spaced-out modes ... but I like that I have that option. Configurability and customisability is key.
Hear hear! Looking like a big touch-friendly tablet app is fine if you're a big touch-friendly tablet app, but the option should be there for desktop users to continue efficiently using their screen real estate and mouse-friendly smaller features.
@@FreihEitner I agree. I can't work with most Microsoft products because the options I am looking for are usually hidden to the point that I just don't find them to make the UI look as "clean" as possible.
Even better, until Windows 8 we had the option to set the padding and font sizes for different UI elements independently how we wished. With WIndows 10 that option got removed and we have to use the UI how they want it (unless we use 3rd party tools to change the corresponding registry keys directly) So there was a time when the user could change the UI if they wanted to, but that option got removed.
Meanwhile, for some reason, scrollbars in many applications have become so thin it's hard to use them (or, my personal favourite, when in fullscreen the rightmost pixel on the screen does not count as the scrollbar, so you have to play pixel hunt in order to click on it)
Many people actually don't. The "older" tech generation understood and understands how it all happens. It's 20's and 30-somethings that don't usually get it and require a lot of teaching. Hardware and programs used to be made VERY well and checked a lot before release to the public. That hasn't been true for 15 +/- years. I've noticed a lot of sloppy hardware and programs around. I smile big when I see someone has Passion for what they're doing and doing it well.
I have used Thunderbird for years, and frankly never thought it looked old. I use the mail and Calendar and rely on them. I have outlook on my computer, but have never set it up
I've been using Thunderbird for years. All I want to do I'd to send and receive e-mails. I don't give a damn that somebody thinks it looks dated. And it is NOT clunky.
I've been using Thunderbird for a some time now and I just love it. Excellent OpenPGP and S/MIME support. I've also donated a small amount of money to support development. I'm really excited for a more customizable UI, especially if it includes a 3-column layout.
A good example of how redesigning an interface can boost an open source software is Blender. The redesign that occurred with version 2.8 made Blender's popularity surge. At the time some people complained about the new interface, but today I think everyone agrees that it was the right thing to do. (of course there were other new features like Eevee)
I did use Blender back in late 2019 after that change, and it just was Perfect. Every time you open a tutorial and see that old grey-scale color i get sick. I also tried 3D Max and that also gave me sickness, although i haven't touched Blender in over 2.5 years and moved to coding i still remember how to use it and what to do because it so f***ing clean.
@@gurok2 yes, a redesign in itself can't do everything. There is also the influence of the market in which Blender evolves: its direct competitors are expensive applications. So there is a real demand for an open source alternative. More complicated for Firefox or Thunderbird whose competitors are either free (webmail, gmail first, which is good enough for many users) or almost free (like outlook which is included in the office pack). In addition, it 's a market in decline, because outside the business world, it's the phone that is mostly used to read emails.
Gimp will always impress me, I remember trying it a few years ago and just giving up as I hated the UI so much, now it's so good I haven't even though about photoshop
@@ExtremeMetal I'm still having trouble with the UI and how things work differently. Not sure what their target audience is, but it can't be people switching over from Photoshop. Just recently I had to jump through hoops to delete multiple layers, because GIMP doesn't have the ability to delete more than one at once.
The greatest Thunderbird feature for me is the complete control you have over setting your mail settings. More and more clients are "simplifying" the process and hiding the gory details of mail client setup - which is wonderful when it works, but makes it difficult to impossible to use these clients if you have an unusual setup. Thunderbird is the one program that I can connect to any normal mail server.
This is one of the greatest and most common errors of graphical applications: Making the common, simple operations as easy and accessible as possible, at the cost of making uncommon operations obscure, extremely difficult, or even impossible, "because who would want to do that?" I just set up a new dedicated VR box for my family, running Windows 10 x64; the process was two days of near-screaming frustration as I beat the cursed thing into usable shape, trying to remember all of the things I had to do last time around, "last time" being three or four years ago, and where to find all the little hidden tweaks to make it behave as I expect it to. It took two hours **just** to figure out how to persuade a **CURRENT** Windows 10 build that my RFC1918 home LAN is a trusted private network. I ended up having to do it using PowerShell, because I could not find any way to do it through the GUI controls. (I found lots of *instructions* for doing so. Most of them referred to controls that didn't exist. The rest just didn't work.)
My oldest message I saved in one of the Thunderbird folder is from March 2006. I certainly tried other email applications, but I found nothing that beats the functionality of Thunderbird. I also do not care about the interface looking not modern enough. To me stability and functionality are more important than flashy design. Especially for an email app, continuity is more important than looks.
I've used Thunderbird since the days when it was part of Netscape and I love that some parts of it still do work the same way (hooray for muscle memory!). But since a while, every new version does something to the UI that's absolutely horrible, does not feel "right", is not configurable (ie. canoot be fully disabled) and does not comply to my desktop theme (I'm using Linux with KDE, Breeze theme with a more gray color theme). The last thing was the "Spaces" bar on the left, which does not use the system-wide colors that most parts of TB use just fine. Also the menus don't fit in the system theme, they look Windows-11-like - no other Gtk application does look like this on my system. Some time ago, TB used native Gtk dialogs and widgets that integrated well into the system. That felt "old", but worked fine. The problem seems to be that "using the things that the user has selected on the system" is not "modern". One of the last victims of "modernization", ie. wasting space and cramming everything in the main window, has been the address book. Instead of a seperate window, one contact opens in a part of the main window and the most important part of the whole PC setup is the mouse wheel. It's also impossible to open multiple contacts at once, eg. for copying data between contacts. Hooray for a "modern" design... I'm learning emacs now.
Been using TB since release and appreciate that the design isn't changing constantly. I have brought many happy new users on board. I don't need a fancy looking mail client.. I just need one that works and works well.
Thanks for a very frank overview of TB's history, challenges, and direction. As a boomer who's been a Firefox and Thunderbird user for years, I'm comfortable with the "dated" UI, but I hadn't considered your important point that younger potential new users could be put off by it. Is it still the plan to convert K-9 Mail to the Thunderbird moble email client? K-9 is my alltime favorite mobile email app, and honestly, I would hope that integration with TB doen't change it too much.
35+ year software engineering grunt here - I feel your pain, trust me, it's one of the reasons I retired from the industry early. I've often wondered about some of these T-Bird details, so thanks for discussing them. To be honest, as haphazard as its development effort sounds, someone has clearly been keeping a pretty good handle on it, as I've always found it usable and, in fact, preferable to any alternatives I've come across - and I still have mail in my Sent folder from 2003. Then again, I maintain my own mail server and like to have as much control over my client(s) as possible, so - for me - that's a big plus with T-Bird. As you update the product "re-imagined for a modern audience", my hope as that it remains primarily a robust, straightforward email client, uncluttered by the sort of things that make Outlook, for example, unusable (for me). Feature and scope creep have killed projects too numerous to count even in my own experience. Each time I've seen a new non-email feature added to this application, I've shuddered (Chat? there are already a million chat apps out there). My preference would be to see things like that implemented as optional extensions, FWIW. Also, please do not forget that so many people ARE NOT using this application on a phone; it has to remain viable on a desktop / laptop. A dumbed-down, tile-driven U/I squeezed into the lowest common denominator for an iPhone screen will send me looking for alternatives. /rant ;0) Good luck, Alessandro. Truly.
With modern UI/UX techniques there should be no reason the interface can't be as detailed as it should be on desktop and provide just enough detail on a phone. But getting there is a lot of work from the ground up.
@@fenix849 Yep. Absolutely. And it's the 'lot of work' bit that prompts middle-manager-wannabe-bureaucrat-types to call impromptu design "summits" that end up skewing the product toward some imagined "80/20" paradigm that leaves one or more platforms sucking wind. Been there, seen it IRL way too many times. I pray Mozilla & T-Bird are free of this malady, but SW engineering doesn't vary all that much from one project (or company "culture") to another; someone's career is usually on the line. Take it slow. T-Bird is a wonderful, completely viable application RIGHT NOW. It is not in dire need of constant "improvement" or feature expansion.
@@fenix849 tbh I really like the interface of thunderbird atm. I feel like the current one is kind of a little bit function over form but I prefer that to form over function that seems to be the trend everywhere😅
Oh dear gods yes. One of the biggest interface mistakes it is possible to make in a modern-day application is to mandate that it have exactly the same interface on mobile devices and desktop. That means one of two things: It will be either unusable on a mobile device, or crippled on the desktop. It's like stipulating that the user interface for your bicycle and your fifth-wheel half-ton 4WD pickup should be the same. It displays a basic incomprehension of the fact that they are different operating environments for different applications. Surely we don't **ALL** have to repeat the mistakes of Windows 8.
Thunderbird does not feel old by any mean. It feels like a great Desktop program, essential for millions of people. Please do not destroy or ruin it in that modernization effort. There is lot of bad stuff in so called modern user interfaces...
It does look old but old isn't a bad thing. It is very intuitive and not off putting at all. Don't change the way it looks just to change the way it looks. Focus on function and ease of use and if that includes changing the UI then so be it.
I like how Thunderbird looks. I like simple. I only need email. I don't use any of the other features. If there is a way to only install the email client, I would want that.
Thank you for your explanation. Long ago I used Eudora on a PC and Pine on Unix systems. Both used the .mbox format which lets me look at old (even ancient) non-HTML mail in any text editor if need be. In my next-to-last job, we used Lotus Notes - enough said. Before I retired from my last job I was using Outlook at work, which (obviously) has a proprietary email format. The only way to archive email was to use Adobe Acrobat, which worked surprisingly well, to create files full of email folders and attachments that were accessible with Adobe Reader. But in general, I do not want to use a proprietary format to store my email files. I chose Thunderbird because of its use of the .mbox format and will likely stay with it as long as that format is not abandoned. I have been programming (for engineering software) off and on since 1966 so I appreciate the complexity of what you are trying to change. It is unfortunate that you have to try to "keep up with the Joneses" in terms of GUI features in order to retain and gain new users. While I'm sure you developers are not just being trendy when making changes, many users will ask for stuff that is completely unnecessary. I am glad to learn that you have a paid development staff and are seriously planning for future development. Thank you for your work.
For what it's worth, I love Thunderbird precisely because it looks and feels like a traditional email client. I couldn't care less for the calendar and other features, I hate having emails grouped in 'conversations' as gmail does. The email client part of Thunderbird is just what I need, all the additional features added between 2012 and today are a distraction I try to ignore.
Thunderbird has added email grouping similar to Outlook. That might be a good feature for those that need to thread their conversations, but I found it inconvenient. I managed to find a way to disable that feature.
I was horrified to see threads. I use my e-mail as a to-don list, threads destroys this look. I turned them off immediately. That said, I’m forever grateful to all the developers that keep this great product going. ❤
Yep!! I don't see anything "ancient" about it. So what if it's "older".. My Amiga 4000 has been recapped and fixed but it still does what I bought it for, it wasn't only for games. I still use Windows 7 because it's pretty to look at and has a GREAT GUI where Windows 8 and 10......nooooo. I like and use Windows 11 now because I _have_ to, not because it looks good. It looks like shite and the UI is much more complicated than Windows 7. So many people I know don't understand why Micro$oft didn't just make changes to Windows 7, keep the GUI and the comfort of interfacing and modify it that way? The State employees where I live, were attempting to Boycott Windows 8 and 10 because of the horrible UI. I think Mozilla really needs to consider that a lot better than Micro$hit did. I have Start11 installed for Windows 11, and that at least brings back Windows 7 Menu while having the choice to use Windows 11's menu. Some of the older stuff is better than newer. I love progress, but not all progress is actually GOOD. I don't need a new Phone every year. I wish I still has my Android S9 with the MicroSD slot. I think the 30-somethings should be more careful with the use of ancient. At almost 60 I do not consider myself old at all. I'm very aware of Tech, how to use it, and help kids. Yet, I'm in the range where some call me "old"..and it usually requires me to THINK about Being old to recognize they're meaning I am, without knowing me. But then, a lot of 30-somethings aren't around animals much, nature much, or...Really interacting with people much. That can create a very screwed view of things. If they make Thunderbird so that we can change the look BACK to the original and 'pretty' again, then okay, as long as it's not really complicated as Windows 8/11 have become. The Amiga developers had a philosophy: "A computer for the users, from basic usage to very complex. Depending on your needs and everyone is considered. You don't have to be a Rocket Scientist to use it - but if that's what you want, it's there."
Aside from not supporting regexes in the mail filters, i'm quite happy with my Thunderbird mail client. I don't blame TB devs for not implementing it, i blame spammers for requiring such a function.
It doesn't need new look imo. Its functional the way it is. Why does everything have to look like some mobile crap these days, with big fonts, everything hidden into submenus of submenus etc (not saying thunderbird will do that in the future ofc). Good thing at least that customizable interface is planned, which is good. Been using thunderbird on linux for the last 16 years and its been very solid email client. thank you for that. The only missing feature is the tray icon that got removed some updates ago at least on linux. Have to use thirdparty birdtray to mimic that feature. my 2 cents. Thanks for video
Totally agreed. Also, the bug with calendar notifications that never close. And one time I accepted a work meeting but TB responded from my personal account for some reason.
Thanks. I must say: I think stupid users worry about how "old" software looks - instead of what they do. All I know is TB works, and Mail gives me endless issues...
I used Thunderbird years ago, I honestly didn’t even know it was still going. Thanks for the update, I’d be up for a modernised version. I’m on a Mac and use Outlook for my work email (which has its own bunch of issues) and I’m not a fan of Apple Mail (with it’s weird way of embedding attachments) for my personal email, so generally use web based Gmail instead. I prefer a standalone app though, so It’s good to hear of your plans.
@@alecaddd All of this really make me question why change the shapes in the middle of the tower instead of re-writing it from 'scratch' (quotes because, you know, still on top of Firefox, and reusing a lot of stuff etc) - from the outside it looks like you're changing a tree a from the leaves down to branches etc., is there a report from the team on some analysis if they (you) should try and fix stuff or re-start in parallel to "basic" upkeep tasks?
I'm crawling through some mailing lists, I'll do my best to find, but even though Topic Box and even mail dot mozilla archives are really and easy to use, mailing lists are hard.
Restarting from scratch entirely would require much more time, and we're a small team of 20 people, so we don't have the capacity to build something completely new while in parallel fixing and maintaining the "old" version. Tackling specific sections, and rebuilding those with an incremental approach is more sustainable.
@@smithastley1616 I was like you once, i thought it looked terrible then i found out you can pretty much customize to somewhat look like Gmail. Them i realized that thunderbird is actually better than modern email clients
I am using Thunderbird since the stone age as long as it the Application is safe and reliable i am happy. Design wise i am more on a minimalist side. A good balance between modern design elements while not turning into a resource hungry bloat monster. Thanks for you Work Thunderbird Community!
I'll be honest, a large part of why I switched to Thunderbird is because I liked the look and feel of it. It's a bit dated, sure, but it's very function first and reminded me of the outlook clients I was using in the late 90's-00's, which was my favorite style. I honestly forgot it wasn't the old school "good" outlook for a while when I first used it. Pros and cons to that, obviously, but that pick-up-and-go familiarity is what brought me to the platform after I got fed up with Microsoft Office and it's bullshit years ago.
@@alecaddd ok, I just got the impression online that most people think it looks outdated but if I will be able to keep the current style then that will be awesome too
One of the things I like about TB is that it _does not_ place form over function. Looking "dated" is fine if it means security, privacy, and a smooth function. Windows and Apple get all the attention because they look good, but it comes at a price an intelligent computer user just isn't willing to pay.
... For some people's values of "good". I **HATE** Mac Mail with a burning passion. (But to be honest I hate almost everything about the Mac, especially after having been forced by my job to use one for the last several years.)
I'm happy you think that. All the "new" things we're doing will not replace the "old", with the goal to allow current users to maintain the way it looks and behave if they're happy with it.
@@alecaddd Last time I looked around for a replacement email client (whatever I was using before having broken and lost my messages just too many times) Thunderbird seemed to be the only choice ... given that I wanted a Usenet client as well. Which is, now, becoming less of a requirement as there's almost no traffic left that I'm interested in.
Thunderbird and I have been friends for over 20yrs. It has proven to be a rock solid application and very easy to use. I have used it on many windows platforms long before I switched to Linux (first Ubuntu, then mint).
I have been using Thunderbird for as long as I can remember. I like how all my email accounts are treated as individual accounts & keeps them separate but also let’s me move a message to another account. Most of the current email clients use the 1 inbox for all, frankly I hate that. I’ve ran Thunderbird on Windows, Linux & macOS the interface looks the same across all & works the same on all, I like that. I appreciate all the work that has gone into all the Thunderbird threw the years. Glad it is being activity being worked on I just hope that in all the modernization that’s going on the way it works doesn’t get broke, at least for me. You’ve got a big task ahead of you & I wish you well.
I use Thunderbird specifically because of the windows 95 era interface. Used to use thunderbird, but switched to another program, then one day I had a problem connecting to one of my e-mail accounts because the setting I needed wasn't available in their sleek and modern interface. That is why I switched back to firefox to regain a more granular control.
Our goal is to accommodate all users. The interface should adapt to all needs and be familiar to everyone. We don't want to alienate any existing user.
@@alecaddd Alienating is going to happen. You can't "make" other people happy. Happiness is a personal choice inside ones self. I want the colors back in the icons. With a lot of programmers going with the way Windows 10 and 11 looks, it looks soooooo bland and flat. At 1:16, that looks sweet! The little things make the big things. When all colors are removed or made flat...you're removing the fun.
@@alecaddd One of the keys; I have decades of experience with the current interface. I support elderly family members with similar long-term experience with the interface. I don't know what "modern interface" will be, you allude to it without ever giving a hint of what that means (and indeed, what I was looking for when watching this video). I fear problems supporting people who have known only the existing interface, and are no longer so flexible as to easily be able to accommodate massive changes. Please preserve a mechanism so those who are used to the current interface to can continue to use what they understand. Regards,
@@biblebadcopycatofcuneiform8210 I also like the 95 to XP era look. Menues at the top, main functionality buttons below and then the data viewer. Clean, easy to understand and navigate.
I agree. The Windows 95 era interface is the most efficient. Sure things can be reduced in terms of the depth of menus and such, but everything should stay high density. It's the most efficient layout for actual work. I have around 20 IMAP server connections in Thunderbird and there's simply no better way to see all accounts that is better than the node tree. If anything, I'd like the interface to be compressed even more to fit more on the screen. Lastly, please don't ever use MS Office style "ribbon" interfaces. Those are horribly inefficient and they eat up tons of valuable screen real estate. I prefer Windows 3.11 style icons that are compact and efficient.
"as if windows 95 was the pinnacle of UI design" Just look at everything since Windows 8. Even windows 11 sucks. Compared to that, Windows 95 was indeed the pinnacle of UX.
I love Thunderbird and will always want an email client on my PC. I am not interested in on-line email only. My only complaint is some time ago the right click option to Delete Message was moved to the middle of the menu and made harder to select. I remember it used to be at the bottom (?) and easy to select. (This affects me when I am using mouse only, which is usually the case.) I think the UI needs to maintain the general workflow. I do not use TB for its advanced features. I would like the TB would have a way to select a "Simple UI". I don't mind the look that it has now but feel a new look should not interfere with the workflow.
Thunderbird is great. I have used it for 20 years. It has everything I need. I don't need it to look new. The simplicity is my favorite part The best part was when Thunderbird incorporated a dark mode! There is an old saying which I often find useful - If it aint broke, don't fix it.
7:07 "Windows 95 was the pinnacle" it was not, but Windows 2000 pretty much was. Colors used for signal value not for fashion. Flat monochrome pictograms is not an improvement of icons. Please keep Thunderbird navigable by keyboard, it makes Thunderbird fast to use for experienced users. Please keep menu bar available. It makes it easy to explain by text or by voice what you have to select to get a certain function. E.g. to reopen tabs after an app restart: Main menu > History > "Restore Previous Session".
Looking old is honestly my most favorite feature of thunderbird. But as of now i really like the UI changes from the last versions, so currently i don't have anything to worry about.
It's funny how many of the "new" interfaces don't hold up to real work. They look cool, but they work horribly. Microsoft's office interface comes to mind.
@@AquariusTurtle if interfaces are designed properly there's nothing wrong in the new trends... I don't think that that a lot of older interfaces were better, instead I think we just got so used to that they feel natural now and we can do stuff without thinking much. That's why it is important to change as soon as possible to a properly designed and coherent interface so we can get used to faster and get back to feel the interface as natural again. In other words if the interface is properly designed, the less changes, the better.
@@AquariusTurtle I have to disagree. Though I had initial misgivings about the Office changes (and it's changed many times in the past decade or two) they've worked better when I gave them a chance. I realized it was partly me being stubborn out of nostalgia.
@@Yggdrasil42 The ribbon is made for newbies and casual users. The order of icons and presentation groupings were designed by committee at Microsoft based on a distribution curve. The problem is that most people write 1 page letters. If you do work like write books, do 50 page spreadsheets, run custom VB macro code, do technical writing, etc., the ribbon is the worst possible interface. It's slow by virtue of hiding many of the needed functions and forcing you to hunt. In the older toolbars you could place far more functions on a toolbar, which could be docked anywhere. That's not possible with the ribbon. And the ribbon takes 3/10s of all the vertical space, which is a ton. Again, the ribbon is fine for casual users but not for workers.
@@daicon3 agreed. Windows' new interface, for example, leaves you wondering what has focus, what are window borders, where you are on a page (since the scrollbars are tiny). At least in Windows 95 and 3.11 you could always tell what was what. Scrollbars were always scrollbars. Buttons were always buttons. You weren't screwing around with endless depths of non-hierarchial pages with a GUI that seems to emulate a cellphone.
A little worried. Been using this email client since April 1996, back when it was Netscape Mail. Reason: it beats everything else for usability and function. Talk of 'modernising' makes me worry that I'll have to look for a new client. Seen so many UI dumbed down and ruined to cater for the 'modern' user. Let's hope it is configurable enough to minimise the downgrade.
IMHO Thunderbird should concentrate a little bit more on company users. Management tools that make it easy to roll out and manage TB in a corporate environment (e.g. via GPO) would be great: An out of the box experience where TB configures email, address book, calendar for a new user that opens it for the first time on his/her corporate device or even customizing the UI centrally for all users would also be nice. I think the one of the reasons that Chrome is now installed on nearly every company device is that they had all the management tools for the everyday Admin and Firefox didn’t. And: If you know a program from work you are more likely to install it at home as well.
I just can't overstate how important Thunderbird has been to this point for me and will be for the foreseeable future. It's the only viable independent email / calendar / contant management application which just works and allows seamless switching between Mac, Linux and Windows while being able to easily transfer the settings. The task of easily managing multiple email boxes is so important that it cannot be migrated under any single webmail provider where there is even a sligth risk of the account being shut down beyond reasons out of users control.
@@JohnHughesChampigny Yes, I used to follow that religion, too. Suffice it to say, that I think that I get sufficient value out of gmail in my use cases to be worth the exchange.
I actually like the current UI... It made me laugh when you mentioned that Win9x reference... Yes, I got XFCE4 looking exactly Like Windows98, and I think it is the best thing ever, so you got my demographics well. Changing the interface into what I am guessing is the generic boring minimialism type will drive me away from using it but hey, I still wish this piece of software the best, I always liked thunderbird. I will just steer into TUI mail applications, but hope Thunderbird gets more new users.
I moved to Linux when I could see that MS was abandoning its old ways of doing things. I have KDE Plasma set to look and work much like Win2k... it's closer to that paradigm than Windows itself is now.
Im happy with how thunderbird currently is, has the same feel as outlook express back in the day. I also install it on many peoples computers and most prefer it to the modern Outlook.
I brought my first PC 1995 and from day 1 I've used Mozilla software, first with Netscape Navigator/Netscape Communicator and then on to Firefox and Thunderbird. In the 28 years that I've used it I have had no regets. Keep up the good work.
13:06 "New services coming out to increase the revenue stream" Does this mean we can expect to see some services of Thunderbird to be locked behind paywalls?
TB is my everyday companion, I use it for everything email related, it keeps opened 24h a day, everyday and I use it in my job, it is just fast and easy to use. And yes, I use it since the days it was part of Netscape.
Please, keep the interface "cluttered" with buttons that look like buttons. Microsoft et el have done a disastrous job of stripping away what I want to see when I want to see it. They've made me feel powerless as a user because they've turned their mail client into a 3 button Fisher-Price disaster.
I have used Thunderbird for many, many years and honestly can't think of any significant complaints. The user interface might be getting a bit long in the tooth, but it offers everything that the majority of users need.
Nothing wrong with Thunderbird. One of the best features is the ability to selectively backup mail folders. Firefox can be quite buggy but I've been using T bird since the start without any issues. Don't fix what ain't broken with the exception of attachment overhead padding.
I think I have used thunderbird ever since it came out. If you compare thunderbird to something like outlook, Thunderbird blows it away. I run exclusively linux and backing up a profile is extremely easy. The auto-configure for email almost always works and when it doesnt you can trace it back to something stupid that providers like At&t do. The only weak point in thunderbird is the fonts. Incorporating the ability to change the font sizes in 'Settings' for the main menus areas and overall look would be a plus.
My main reasons to keep Thunderbird on my (friends') desktops are: 1. Better search options than any e-mail client I know of. 2. Cross-platform compatibility. Whether people I help/ support prefer Linux, Windows or MacOS, I can always secure/ backup personal profiles and port them between OS'es. That said, I hope for a proper port of TB to Android and maybe iOS once the legacy code has been eliminated. One bit of advice however: I love Firefox, but I hate Mozilla's PR department. The reason for that is: Constantly imitating Chrome, dumbing down the UI/UX and pushing pet projects like Pocket and temporary colour theming at odds with the main reasons I chose Firefox: adaptability and respecting privacy. Another thing Mozilla has handled quite poorly is the plug-in developer support especially when switching from XUL to a more modern counterpart. I never use plain Firefox without plugins, except at the time of install, just before adding the plugins. Please try to write extremely good documentation on new API's before abandoning the old and actively listen to plugin developers' concerns before replacing the old.
Thunderbird is the best standalone email client, in my opinion. That is why I have used it across multiple OSes for over a decade. Can it become better? I suppose it can. Just remember that change for the sake of change is not progress. As someone who regularly uses multiple email accounts which should be kept separate (work vs. personal), I have rejected otherwise good email programs in the past which tried to force a single unified inbox. Beyond not wanting that, I specifically want to not have that. If thunderbird continues handling multiple accounts as well as it does today (January 2023) then I will be happy.
I remember whien Microsoft made WIndows "modern" -- it was called Windows 8, and people hated it. I remember when K-9 on Android overhauled to a "modern" interface -- people hated it and I switched apps after many many years of usage. I'm hoping you don't ruin Thunderbird with UI over UX, the way many websites these days are too.
As someone who works in a corporation that uses Thunderbird I don't see it as old/unwelcoming or whatever. I look at it as business application. I don't care for the confetti throwers and laminar water fountains or whatever the modern "app design" calls for as they simply get in the way. Does it receive mail from IMAP/POP? yes? Cool! Does it send mail? yes? Cool! Can I view my mail? yes? Cool! Do I have to relearn how to use it because some designer wants to flex his arts degree and "refresh" the UI? no? Cool!
Interface looking dated is not a bad thing ! its a huge plus its why I switched around 2015 to thunderbird from MS outlook, I need my icons to have colors and when you droped usefull icons to switch to useless vector glyphs i almost droped Tb but then i found that Phoenity Icons extension... I need my programs to have a proper title bar an empty title bar, except for title and the 3 windows buttons, i have 6 monitors and enough screen real estate I don't need a UI made for a 10" tablet, but what I need is a UI that's full of optical anchors contrast. Also thank you for keeping the status bar its great to have one.
14:10 The big question is: What do the Thunderbird developers see as competition? Outlook? Teams? Messengers? "Personal communication application" can either be a glorified wording for "email client" or a dangerous threat of losing the focus what Thunderbird is about. Please dont ruin it.
This new interface is hot garbage. Thunderbird was perfectly fine. You ruined a great program. I've locked everyone to 102 so none of this disastrous nonsense touches their machines.
I still use Thunderbird as my email client! I hate using email websites like Gmail and whatnot. I prefer dedicated email clients. Having said that, I also hate the Gmail and Outlook clients... Thunderbird is the boss.
"Thunderbird released a new version, and it still looks the same." - Yes, tell me you've never worked in software engineering without telling me you've never worked in software engineering, random quoted person. Looking the same is generally the intent - parts of the gearbox whirring away under the user interface have probably changed, but unless the release notes mention the UI explicitly, it should be pretty much identical to last time. Doing otherwise leads to one's inbox exploding from angry users.
Please do not change the UI of Thunderbird. To me is the best email client this day. All other clients had gone in the direction of being similar to the Apple Mail application, and that sucks, they are less usable, especially for person like me that uses multiple mail accounts and has to manage a lot of emails each day.
Probably I wasn't very clear in the video, but it's our primary goal to keep supporting the current UI, allowing users that prefer the compact density and current layout to maintain it. But as you love how it looks right now, we have many users that absolutely hate it. It doesn't mean that one group is right and the other is wrong, just different needs and different visual taste. We will try to make everybody happy
Please don't copy firefox UI, it's ugly and hostile to the user. Almost every time I need to find a feature I have to search it online hoping other people have posted something about what I need.
My fear is that we will see the same development as with Firefox, breaking the user interface and adding features that nobody wants to alienate the users. Please don't try to copy others. People have chosen Thunderbird because they don't want to use Outlook or Google Mail.
Using Thunderbird for last 13 years or so. I love its simplicity, minimalism and working with multiple accounts at the same time. I actually don't care that much about chats, calendar or even looks. All I need is to have it opened in the background to know about new emails.
Excellent work! Hearing about ui changes in Thunderbird has always scared me, I really like the compact view (especially because I am someone who gets a ton of emails each day) and the 3 column layout. Thunderbird is an application I have open at all times on my second monitor and that calendar in the 3rd column is the single thing that prevents me from totally forgetting about my daily responsibilities. I do hope that in the future that compact email display and 3 column layout will continue to be supported
Since you mentioned 3 column layout, I will say that I am very much married to the 2 column layout with reading pane below the list of emails. I do not read my emails in a narrow pane along the side. As with other comments, the option to do either is most appreciated.
@@alecaddd There was nothing where you specifically stated that, but likewise little detail was given on what to expect from the referenced overhaul of the interface beyond removing "dialogs launched from other dialogs". I'm just nervous about what it might meant to modernize the interface and do away with the 90s aesthetic (which happens to work quite well for my use case).
Very interesting talk, with great info. Thanks for the insight! Small note on the formatting: it helps to add a brief pause in between each [section] of the talk. This gives the listener a moment to breath before switching topics.
Thanks for the explanation. I am a long-term user (pretty much from the start) and despite forays into Apple Mail, Spark, Airmail, Gmail etc. etc. I keep coming back to Thunderbird because, despite its (possibly) clunky looks, it has a functionality still unmatched by all the 'new kids on the block'...
I really would like that you take an older version of thunderbird and highlight the differences with a mockup of what you will like to do and explain why the UX and UI is better and this is not your personal preference. Also highlight what pros and cons would have the new mockup. I think a video like this would really help users to understand why choiches were made that way and understand it is not just that nowadays devs designs for touchscreens.
@@alecaddd an highlight of thunderbird that is understated is that it is both featureful and slow changing. This means that once you overcome the learning barrier, you can enjoy the app for many years to come and you have plenty of time to adapt to changes. I think this is often not appreciated in today professional software. The big example here is EMacs which is terrible terrible UX but still it’s a tool that you can use it for many many years. eMacs to me it is not worth but thunderbird it is.
I understand your position, but I hope you also understand that we don't want a repeat of what was going on with Firefox, where they had the 73096th UI revamp while there were huge problems like memory leaks and instabilities that made using it border on torture. Don't know if they ever fixed that "Always open this file type with this application" bug where it flat out ignored the setting, because I eventually abandoned the browser entirely. If a usability problem can reach the bug report's 10th anniversary while the developers prefer to screw around with UI borders, as a user you eventually have to face reality...
For sure, these are valid concerns. I can tell you that the interface refresh in Thunderbird is very much a "side effect" of the removal of technical debt and improvements of the underlying architecture. For example, rebuilding the folder tree to move away from the XUL implementation will get rid off those annoying performance issues of CPU spikes at 100% which no one knows why they're happening, same thing for the message list, or the rearchitecture of the top toolbar to remove that messy code inconsistency that impedes accessibility and support for screen readers, and so on. A new refreshed UI to appeal to newer generations is definitely part of our objective, but we very well know that if we first don't produce a stable, reliable, and feature reach application, all the fancy UI in the world will not do anything.
I've been using Thunderbird for around 20 years now. Please don't change the user interface! Whenever anyone decides to "modernize" their user interface they always make it worse. MS Office is a perfect example of U.I. changes gone wrong.
Ok, so that video was released in early jan 2023, now we are in mid June 2024 so it's the 50% milestone of the renovation project. Is there any kind of mid-way project status?
About streamlining thunderbird, how many people actually use the newsgroup, chat, rssfeeds function in thunderbird? Personally, I just never found thunderbird to be the right place for them. This could just be me, but they seem to broaden the scope of the application to more than it can, and last I used them they really didn't feel all that flushed out.
That's a valid point. I can tell you that currently we have an average of 300k RSS feed users active per month (telemetry can be entirely disabled so we don't have the full picture) but already a lot of users use that specific feature. It's always a difficult balance on where to put resources and what to keep.
@@alecaddd That is more users than I expected, I may have chosen a bad example here. Just tried importing a xml file from inoreader just to check, does work reasonably well, but it does seem like something that has not gotten a lot of attention. First thing I noticed, it showed a nice tree of categories with individual feeds below it, before importing, but after importing I all the feeds lumped together in one folder with no easy 5 second way to click on the individual feeds. I also personally find them being placed below the e-mail accounts kind of awkward, and to me, it would have made more sense as a separate tab like chat or calendar. But those are the thoughts of someone who does not and does not plan to use the feature. Just looked at the stats page, and it does seem like the third most used account type, so I guess it may be the wrong example. Still, it is just roughly 2% of the user that use IMAP that does put things into respective. A lot of the chat options have even less users. Not saying it should be one way or the other, but still.
Keep in mind, Thunderbird is right now the must go email application for Blind people. Keep them and screenreaders in mind! For example when Thunderbird starts up its vital to put the focus right away inside the Inbox. Right now the focus if nowhere (start thunderbird, move your curserkeys up and down, what happens?) THAT is where Design comes in place being able to use it blindly.
I would like to echo thanks for the information here. I've used TBird pretty much since its beginning and -- I must admit -- am really OK with the interface, being kind of long in the tooth myself. One serious request I do have, though, is better support for Google calendars. The current stuff works, kind of, but I use a mix of personal and corporate Google accounts, and the corporate one is not quite right. Sometimes events can be edited, sometimes not. usually changes show up, but sometimes not. GHub Light usually gets me out of a jam, but sometimes I have to resort to the actual web page using Firefox. Anyway, I appreciate your work and difficulties and am just trying to draw out others that might have similar issues to help set your development priorities. I have no intention of changing to anything else, and do look forward to seeing your future development play out.
Please don't go to crazy with sudden changes and don't let the coders make changes just so they can justify their job. How about working on having the interface remember my settings so that I don't have to hit F8 to turn off the preview pane every time there is an update to the client? If you are committed to rewriting the code to turn Thunderbird into something completely different then why don't you have a parallel project with a different name, introduce it as an alternative, and then phase out the classic Thunderbird client IF that is what the users want. I have used Thunderbird since day 1 and agree that it has slowly bloated and has many features I never wanted. I liked it because it wasn't that other one that shall remain nameless ,so don't let it become that please.
Forever time user here... I have been using Thunderbird since 0.1 or maybe 0.2 or whatever, leaving Microsoft Outlook Express, which was great at the time but did leave a bitter taste in my mouth and I was in search of a better alternative. Lovely to hear that my favorite mail application is getting the love and attention it needs. As long as there is mail, I will use Thunderbird.
I'm looking forward to the UI changes. I'm a desktop user with a standard DPI screen so the current "tight" look has been perfectly fine, but I'm always happy to hear more customisation is coming. That said, I am not at all a fan of the monthly release schedule. if Thunderbird starts bugging me to update as often as Firefox does, I'll probably start looking for a new e-mail client, or turn updates off entirely, which is not a good idea. I hope there will be a "critical security updates" release channel for those of us who prefer to update only when absolutely necessary.
Ta for the video, as I certainly learned a few things. I do like the way that Thunderbird is going, especially with the acquisition of K-9 (which I now also use). I'm looking forward to seeing what the next couple of years hold, for the project! 🙂
K-9 looks a lot like goggle mail. Why use something that looks like something else? I'd rather have an Android email app that looks like Blue Main, but doesn't have the send mail problems.
Great job on the video, and I wish you the best of luck with this herculean task. My only interest in the Thunderbird project is that you don't turn K-9 into... well into Thunderbird. The first thing I heard about your acquisition of K-9 was that you renamed K-9 to Thunderbird, and the 2nd thing that you were working on a redesign of the UI. Those are scary changes. As an end-user I don't understand Mozilla's obsession with UI changes to opposed to stability, performance and security improvements. The dramatic shrinking market share of Firefox does not support point that it's the UI that is driving new users away. It may be different for Thunderbird of course. It was bloat and poor performance issues that drove me away when I evaluated it way back in time, and ultimately I prefer the flexibility of an curses based email client. mutt's ui is from 1996(?) and it still works great.
I'm not at all enthusiastic about Supernova. Is it form over function? I never though that TB looked old or was clunky -- it just got the job done. TB did NOT look old; the interface has NOT been bastardised! I don't want "modern" form, which might actually bastardise the UI. Making the UI appealing to new users is all well and good, but are you going to alienate your long-term user base? And this is exactly the problem I foresee with your appeal to leadership and vision: you are forcing change on users, thereby alienating them; same story as with Firefox. Making decisions not because they are trendy? I'll believe it when I see it.
Windows 2000 *was* the pinnacle of the desktop based software design (okay, Windows 7). I am working on a large monitor, because I want to see my DATA, and not have 65% of my screen be empty "design-y" whitespace. Please watch the Accursed Farms' video on the topic ("The GUI should do better. A lot better.").
You state that Thunderbird is considered clunky and old - but I don't have any problem with the UI feeling old - I think it's an advantage. Most "modern" user interface designs are next to worthless and are harder to use than the old interfaces.
Sure, that's your opinion and that's absolutely valid. Many other users feel the absolute opposite, so our goal is to offer a flexible customization that can accommodate various needs and visual taste.
Thanks for such a clear and educational journey through Thunderbird's history, and for explaining why eliminating all that technical debt is so important! Great video, Alex.
Thank you for serving us all reliably for such a long time!
Keep up the great work! I've been using Thunderbird since the first release and it just works!
After watching this, two things are always going to be consistent for me as a user:
1.) I don't mind the long time between updates. I'd prefer a product that works perfectly verses premature releases that have issues.
2.) I guess call me old school, but I like the interface as-is. I'm so used to it that it doesn't bother me at all.
I'd rather stick to TB than use any of the other alternatives out there. Find me another currently supported email app that runs on Windows, Mac and Linux, plus can easily move your user profile between OS platforms!
@@edssn You're amazing, too 💙
@@nudelsuppe3dsemmelknodel990 thank you for using Thunderbird, we appreciate this comment!
I appreciate Thunderbird and am grateful that it will continue to thrive. I need my email to be simple and so far TB has facilitated that. (although I've let it get too cluttered. That's my fault.) People might complain about the interface of TB but what is worse that the on-line interfaces by most e-mail providers? I still have Earthlink and that interface is just no freakin' way.
Great, this is much needed, Thunderbird is really useful. I think the security and privacy features are very important.
I didnt watch the whole video but what the Alessandro DIDNT tell you is that Thunderbird and Firefox are actually modernised versions of Netscape Navigator and Netscape Communicator.
Mozilla's Seamonkey is a browser/email client package just like Communicator was. Seamonkey's email has many similarities to that of Thunderbird.
I'm a big fan of the dessign from Thunderbird. It's not old, it's perfect!
New and innovative UI may look good at beginning, but end of day it may completely kill entire project. Very good example is ZynAddSubFX softsynth. People complained about its dated UI. New generations wished standard single window UI like all cool VST plugins do. What happened was disaster, ZynAddSubFX is just so complex synthesizer that single window UI made things even worse. Its main user now develops Yoshimi, fork of ZynAddSubFX. Yoshimi uses old and dated UI with minor tweaks, but no one complains anymore after Zyn disaster. There are reasons, why serious desktop stuff may look old and dated - it is more important that things work and do their job.
So clearly explained! After hearing your thoughts and intended direction for Thunderbird, I am so very glad you are managing product design. I now have confidence in Thunderbird’s future and I’m looking forward and excited to see it evolve with the care it needs and deserves. Thank you 🙏 ❤
Ohhh! Bravo.
Thank you!
I'm not a computer geek, just use it. I used Thunderbird for 10 years and liked it, so please STOP CHANGING THINGS.
This was a fantastic presentation. Renewed my interest in Thunderbird.
I have used Thunderbird as my main email client for over a decade, but have tried out many competitors. In my experience most modern email clients seem to prioritize form over function which has made them almost useless, but not Thunderbird. With all the tools for automation, such as various filtering functions, Thunderbird has made checking emails much more pleasant. I agree that Thunderbirds interface can be very inconsistent and looks dated, and should be updated but that must not mean that Thunderbird will loose its level of functionality.
@fergusmorris5288 open source projects don't have the same incentive as commercial software companies to sunset features because the analytics show only 10% of people use them. An interface is merely the means of accessing features. But it can make it easier or harder to access them, and that's why it's so important to not fuck it up, and that's why change is necessary.
@fergusmorris5288 Why Evolution?
6:41 Having witnessed how in Firefox Mozilla has padded almost every element with (I'd claim unnecessary) whitespace and deprecated and hidden the Dense-option, please do not strip the option to have a tight and compact UI from users. Yes, there's nothing wrong with making that option opt-in but please do not remove it.
Agreed. For me, Firefox's UI is _too_ tight and the first thing I do when I install it is to switch to one of the slightly more spaced-out modes ... but I like that I have that option. Configurability and customisability is key.
Hear hear! Looking like a big touch-friendly tablet app is fine if you're a big touch-friendly tablet app, but the option should be there for desktop users to continue efficiently using their screen real estate and mouse-friendly smaller features.
@@FreihEitner I agree. I can't work with most Microsoft products because the options I am looking for are usually hidden to the point that I just don't find them to make the UI look as "clean" as possible.
Even better, until Windows 8 we had the option to set the padding and font sizes for different UI elements independently how we wished. With WIndows 10 that option got removed and we have to use the UI how they want it (unless we use 3rd party tools to change the corresponding registry keys directly)
So there was a time when the user could change the UI if they wanted to, but that option got removed.
Meanwhile, for some reason, scrollbars in many applications have become so thin it's hard to use them (or, my personal favourite, when in fullscreen the rightmost pixel on the screen does not count as the scrollbar, so you have to play pixel hunt in order to click on it)
Thanks for sharing this. People underestimate how much work these kind of shifts are.
Indeed, it takes years just to change a few things without breaking everything else
Many people actually don't. The "older" tech generation understood and understands how it all happens. It's 20's and 30-somethings that don't usually get it and require a lot of teaching. Hardware and programs used to be made VERY well and checked a lot before release to the public. That hasn't been true for 15 +/- years. I've noticed a lot of sloppy hardware and programs around. I smile big when I see someone has Passion for what they're doing and doing it well.
I have used Thunderbird for years, and frankly never thought it looked old. I use the mail and Calendar and rely on them. I have outlook on my computer, but have never set it up
...good - if it works well and efficient, don't fix it.
I've been using Thunderbird for years. All I want to do I'd to send and receive e-mails. I don't give a damn that somebody thinks it looks dated. And it is NOT clunky.
I've been using Thunderbird for a some time now and I just love it. Excellent OpenPGP and S/MIME support. I've also donated a small amount of money to support development. I'm really excited for a more customizable UI, especially if it includes a 3-column layout.
A good example of how redesigning an interface can boost an open source software is Blender. The redesign that occurred with version 2.8 made Blender's popularity surge.
At the time some people complained about the new interface, but today I think everyone agrees that it was the right thing to do. (of course there were other new features like Eevee)
I did use Blender back in late 2019 after that change, and it just was Perfect. Every time you open a tutorial and see that old grey-scale color i get sick.
I also tried 3D Max and that also gave me sickness, although i haven't touched Blender in over 2.5 years and moved to coding i still remember how to use it and what to do because it so f***ing clean.
A contrary example would be Firefox, which bled users with Aurora and other redesigns that it never got back.
@@gurok2 yes, a redesign in itself can't do everything. There is also the influence of the market in which Blender evolves: its direct competitors are expensive applications. So there is a real demand for an open source alternative. More complicated for Firefox or Thunderbird whose competitors are either free (webmail, gmail first, which is good enough for many users) or almost free (like outlook which is included in the office pack). In addition, it 's a market in decline, because outside the business world, it's the phone that is mostly used to read emails.
Gimp will always impress me, I remember trying it a few years ago and just giving up as I hated the UI so much, now it's so good I haven't even though about photoshop
@@ExtremeMetal I'm still having trouble with the UI and how things work differently. Not sure what their target audience is, but it can't be people switching over from Photoshop. Just recently I had to jump through hoops to delete multiple layers, because GIMP doesn't have the ability to delete more than one at once.
The greatest Thunderbird feature for me is the complete control you have over setting your mail settings. More and more clients are "simplifying" the process and hiding the gory details of mail client setup - which is wonderful when it works, but makes it difficult to impossible to use these clients if you have an unusual setup.
Thunderbird is the one program that I can connect to any normal mail server.
This is one of the greatest and most common errors of graphical applications: Making the common, simple operations as easy and accessible as possible, at the cost of making uncommon operations obscure, extremely difficult, or even impossible, "because who would want to do that?"
I just set up a new dedicated VR box for my family, running Windows 10 x64; the process was two days of near-screaming frustration as I beat the cursed thing into usable shape, trying to remember all of the things I had to do last time around, "last time" being three or four years ago, and where to find all the little hidden tweaks to make it behave as I expect it to. It took two hours **just** to figure out how to persuade a **CURRENT** Windows 10 build that my RFC1918 home LAN is a trusted private network. I ended up having to do it using PowerShell, because I could not find any way to do it through the GUI controls. (I found lots of *instructions* for doing so. Most of them referred to controls that didn't exist. The rest just didn't work.)
@@PhilStracchino I hear you, my brother. I know your pain well.
Yes agreed, try telling apple that!
My oldest message I saved in one of the Thunderbird folder is from March 2006. I certainly tried other email applications, but I found nothing that beats the functionality of Thunderbird.
I also do not care about the interface looking not modern enough. To me stability and functionality are more important than flashy design. Especially for an email app, continuity is more important than looks.
I've used Thunderbird since the days when it was part of Netscape and I love that some parts of it still do work the same way (hooray for muscle memory!).
But since a while, every new version does something to the UI that's absolutely horrible, does not feel "right", is not configurable (ie. canoot be fully disabled) and does not comply to my desktop theme (I'm using Linux with KDE, Breeze theme with a more gray color theme).
The last thing was the "Spaces" bar on the left, which does not use the system-wide colors that most parts of TB use just fine.
Also the menus don't fit in the system theme, they look Windows-11-like - no other Gtk application does look like this on my system.
Some time ago, TB used native Gtk dialogs and widgets that integrated well into the system.
That felt "old", but worked fine.
The problem seems to be that "using the things that the user has selected on the system" is not "modern".
One of the last victims of "modernization", ie. wasting space and cramming everything in the main window, has been the address book.
Instead of a seperate window, one contact opens in a part of the main window and the most important part of the whole PC setup is the mouse wheel.
It's also impossible to open multiple contacts at once, eg. for copying data between contacts.
Hooray for a "modern" design...
I'm learning emacs now.
Been using TB since release and appreciate that the design isn't changing constantly. I have brought many happy new users on board. I don't need a fancy looking mail client.. I just need one that works and works well.
Because of this video, I've donated to Thunderbird. Thank you for the information and explanations. I really appreciate it!
Oh wow, thank you so much
Thanks for a very frank overview of TB's history, challenges, and direction. As a boomer who's been a Firefox and Thunderbird user for years, I'm comfortable with the "dated" UI, but I hadn't considered your important point that younger potential new users could be put off by it. Is it still the plan to convert K-9 Mail to the Thunderbird moble email client? K-9 is my alltime favorite mobile email app, and honestly, I would hope that integration with TB doen't change it too much.
35+ year software engineering grunt here - I feel your pain, trust me, it's one of the reasons I retired from the industry early. I've often wondered about some of these T-Bird details, so thanks for discussing them. To be honest, as haphazard as its development effort sounds, someone has clearly been keeping a pretty good handle on it, as I've always found it usable and, in fact, preferable to any alternatives I've come across - and I still have mail in my Sent folder from 2003. Then again, I maintain my own mail server and like to have as much control over my client(s) as possible, so - for me - that's a big plus with T-Bird.
As you update the product "re-imagined for a modern audience", my hope as that it remains primarily a robust, straightforward email client, uncluttered by the sort of things that make Outlook, for example, unusable (for me). Feature and scope creep have killed projects too numerous to count even in my own experience. Each time I've seen a new non-email feature added to this application, I've shuddered (Chat? there are already a million chat apps out there). My preference would be to see things like that implemented as optional extensions, FWIW. Also, please do not forget that so many people ARE NOT using this application on a phone; it has to remain viable on a desktop / laptop. A dumbed-down, tile-driven U/I squeezed into the lowest common denominator for an iPhone screen will send me looking for alternatives. /rant ;0) Good luck, Alessandro. Truly.
With modern UI/UX techniques there should be no reason the interface can't be as detailed as it should be on desktop and provide just enough detail on a phone.
But getting there is a lot of work from the ground up.
@@fenix849 Yep. Absolutely. And it's the 'lot of work' bit that prompts middle-manager-wannabe-bureaucrat-types to call impromptu design "summits" that end up skewing the product toward some imagined "80/20" paradigm that leaves one or more platforms sucking wind. Been there, seen it IRL way too many times. I pray Mozilla & T-Bird are free of this malady, but SW engineering doesn't vary all that much from one project (or company "culture") to another; someone's career is usually on the line.
Take it slow. T-Bird is a wonderful, completely viable application RIGHT NOW. It is not in dire need of constant "improvement" or feature expansion.
@@fenix849 tbh I really like the interface of thunderbird atm. I feel like the current one is kind of a little bit function over form but I prefer that to form over function that seems to be the trend everywhere😅
Oh dear gods yes. One of the biggest interface mistakes it is possible to make in a modern-day application is to mandate that it have exactly the same interface on mobile devices and desktop. That means one of two things: It will be either unusable on a mobile device, or crippled on the desktop.
It's like stipulating that the user interface for your bicycle and your fifth-wheel half-ton 4WD pickup should be the same. It displays a basic incomprehension of the fact that they are different operating environments for different applications. Surely we don't **ALL** have to repeat the mistakes of Windows 8.
Thunderbird does not feel old by any mean. It feels like a great Desktop program, essential for millions of people. Please do not destroy or ruin it in that modernization effort. There is lot of bad stuff in so called modern user interfaces...
We don't want to alienate existing users, so supporting various layouts and interfaces is one of our many goals
This is also my concern. TB is office software, not tiktok. I hope any change they make is about productivity first, eye candy later.
It does look old but old isn't a bad thing. It is very intuitive and not off putting at all.
Don't change the way it looks just to change the way it looks. Focus on function and ease of use and if that includes changing the UI then so be it.
@@nobodyimportant2470 You should see my Firefox. Looks like pre-Australis FF, back before FF tried to be Chrome.
Si, it's 1 year later. How you guys feel about TB now?
I like how Thunderbird looks. I like simple. I only need email. I don't use any of the other features. If there is a way to only install the email client, I would want that.
We're implementing options to disable parts that are not useful to someone
Thank you for your explanation. Long ago I used Eudora on a PC and Pine on Unix systems. Both used the .mbox format which lets me look at old (even ancient) non-HTML mail in any text editor if need be. In my next-to-last job, we used Lotus Notes - enough said. Before I retired from my last job I was using Outlook at work, which (obviously) has a proprietary email format. The only way to archive email was to use Adobe Acrobat, which worked surprisingly well, to create files full of email folders and attachments that were accessible with Adobe Reader. But in general, I do not want to use a proprietary format to store my email files. I chose Thunderbird because of its use of the .mbox format and will likely stay with it as long as that format is not abandoned. I have been programming (for engineering software) off and on since 1966 so I appreciate the complexity of what you are trying to change. It is unfortunate that you have to try to "keep up with the Joneses" in terms of GUI features in order to retain and gain new users. While I'm sure you developers are not just being trendy when making changes, many users will ask for stuff that is completely unnecessary. I am glad to learn that you have a paid development staff and are seriously planning for future development. Thank you for your work.
For what it's worth, I love Thunderbird precisely because it looks and feels like a traditional email client. I couldn't care less for the calendar and other features, I hate having emails grouped in 'conversations' as gmail does. The email client part of Thunderbird is just what I need, all the additional features added between 2012 and today are a distraction I try to ignore.
Thunderbird has added email grouping similar to Outlook.
That might be a good feature for those that need to thread their conversations, but I found it inconvenient. I managed to find a way to disable that feature.
The emails grouped as conversations is terrible. I wish I could switch it back.
I was horrified to see threads. I use my e-mail as a to-don list, threads destroys this look. I turned them off immediately. That said, I’m forever grateful to all the developers that keep this great product going. ❤
@@DevilTravelsHow do you get rid of it, please - I hate it when a series of emails gets grouped into a thread.
@@Wol747 I haven't found a way to break up conversation threads. I think it's now hardwired into the program.
An ancient application? I remember it being brand new and being so excited for such a new modern email client.
It may look old, but it works
Yeah, 20 years in software development is a pretty long time, and we have some code that still lingers from the early days.
Agreed. I enjoy how it works currently, but I also wouldn't mind it getting some much needed attention. I am sure things will work itself out.
Yep!! I don't see anything "ancient" about it. So what if it's "older".. My Amiga 4000 has been recapped and fixed but it still does what I bought it for, it wasn't only for games. I still use Windows 7 because it's pretty to look at and has a GREAT GUI where Windows 8 and 10......nooooo. I like and use Windows 11 now because I _have_ to, not because it looks good. It looks like shite and the UI is much more complicated than Windows 7. So many people I know don't understand why Micro$oft didn't just make changes to Windows 7, keep the GUI and the comfort of interfacing and modify it that way?
The State employees where I live, were attempting to Boycott Windows 8 and 10 because of the horrible UI. I think Mozilla really needs to consider that a lot better than Micro$hit did. I have Start11 installed for Windows 11, and that at least brings back Windows 7 Menu while having the choice to use Windows 11's menu.
Some of the older stuff is better than newer. I love progress, but not all progress is actually GOOD. I don't need a new Phone every year. I wish I still has my Android S9 with the MicroSD slot.
I think the 30-somethings should be more careful with the use of ancient. At almost 60 I do not consider myself old at all. I'm very aware of Tech, how to use it, and help kids. Yet, I'm in the range where some call me "old"..and it usually requires me to THINK about Being old to recognize they're meaning I am, without knowing me. But then, a lot of 30-somethings aren't around animals much, nature much, or...Really interacting with people much. That can create a very screwed view of things.
If they make Thunderbird so that we can change the look BACK to the original and 'pretty' again, then okay, as long as it's not really complicated as Windows 8/11 have become.
The Amiga developers had a philosophy: "A computer for the users, from basic usage to very complex. Depending on your needs and everyone is considered. You don't have to be a Rocket Scientist to use it - but if that's what you want, it's there."
@@alecaddd rewrite legacy code in Rust?
Aside from not supporting regexes in the mail filters, i'm quite happy with my Thunderbird mail client.
I don't blame TB devs for not implementing it, i blame spammers for requiring such a function.
It doesn't need new look imo. Its functional the way it is. Why does everything have to look like some mobile crap these days, with big fonts, everything hidden into submenus of submenus etc (not saying thunderbird will do that in the future ofc). Good thing at least that customizable interface is planned, which is good. Been using thunderbird on linux for the last 16 years and its been very solid email client. thank you for that. The only missing feature is the tray icon that got removed some updates ago at least on linux. Have to use thirdparty birdtray to mimic that feature. my 2 cents. Thanks for video
Totally agreed. Also, the bug with calendar notifications that never close. And one time I accepted a work meeting but TB responded from my personal account for some reason.
Thanks. I must say: I think stupid users worry about how "old" software looks - instead of what they do. All I know is TB works, and Mail gives me endless issues...
I used Thunderbird years ago, I honestly didn’t even know it was still going. Thanks for the update, I’d be up for a modernised version. I’m on a Mac and use Outlook for my work email (which has its own bunch of issues) and I’m not a fan of Apple Mail (with it’s weird way of embedding attachments) for my personal email, so generally use web based Gmail instead. I prefer a standalone app though, so It’s good to hear of your plans.
Thanks! It's gonna take us a couple of years, but we really hope to bring some stability and modernity to the app.
@@alecaddd All of this really make me question why change the shapes in the middle of the tower instead of re-writing it from 'scratch' (quotes because, you know, still on top of Firefox, and reusing a lot of stuff etc) - from the outside it looks like you're changing a tree a from the leaves down to branches etc., is there a report from the team on some analysis if they (you) should try and fix stuff or re-start in parallel to "basic" upkeep tasks?
I'm crawling through some mailing lists, I'll do my best to find, but even though Topic Box and even mail dot mozilla archives are really and easy to use, mailing lists are hard.
Restarting from scratch entirely would require much more time, and we're a small team of 20 people, so we don't have the capacity to build something completely new while in parallel fixing and maintaining the "old" version.
Tackling specific sections, and rebuilding those with an incremental approach is more sustainable.
Stability in email is waaayyy more important than keeping up with fads.
All the stability in the world isn't going to benefit me, because I'm not using Thunderbird until it has a UI that makes sense.
@@smithastley1616 Just as I will stop using it if it ceases to have one that makes sense.
@@smithastley1616 I was like you once, i thought it looked terrible then i found out you can pretty much customize to somewhat look like Gmail. Them i realized that thunderbird is actually better than modern email clients
@@Thebigbean114 Thanks, had no idea. I'll look into it.
I am using Thunderbird since the stone age as long as it the Application is safe and reliable i am happy. Design wise i am more on a minimalist side. A good balance between modern design elements while not turning into a resource hungry bloat monster. Thanks for you Work Thunderbird Community!
You're very welcome
I'll be honest, a large part of why I switched to Thunderbird is because I liked the look and feel of it. It's a bit dated, sure, but it's very function first and reminded me of the outlook clients I was using in the late 90's-00's, which was my favorite style. I honestly forgot it wasn't the old school "good" outlook for a while when I first used it.
Pros and cons to that, obviously, but that pick-up-and-go familiarity is what brought me to the platform after I got fed up with Microsoft Office and it's bullshit years ago.
am i weird for liking how thunderbird looks right now?
Not at all, that's why you'll be able to keep it that way
@@alecaddd ok, I just got the impression online that most people think it looks outdated
but if I will be able to keep the current style then that will be awesome too
One of the things I like about TB is that it _does not_ place form over function. Looking "dated" is fine if it means security, privacy, and a smooth function. Windows and Apple get all the attention because they look good, but it comes at a price an intelligent computer user just isn't willing to pay.
... For some people's values of "good". I **HATE** Mac Mail with a burning passion. (But to be honest I hate almost everything about the Mac, especially after having been forced by my job to use one for the last several years.)
Thunderbird doesn't feel old, it feels like a good email client - unlike most email clients these days.
I'm happy you think that.
All the "new" things we're doing will not replace the "old", with the goal to allow current users to maintain the way it looks and behave if they're happy with it.
@@alecaddd Last time I looked around for a replacement email client (whatever I was using before having broken and lost my messages just too many times) Thunderbird seemed to be the only choice ... given that I wanted a Usenet client as well. Which is, now, becoming less of a requirement as there's almost no traffic left that I'm interested in.
yep. SOy loosers who love communism thinks it looks old
Thunderbird and I have been friends for over 20yrs. It has proven to be a rock solid application and very easy to use. I have used it on many windows platforms long before I switched to Linux (first Ubuntu, then mint).
I have been using Thunderbird for as long as I can remember. I like how all my email accounts are treated as individual accounts & keeps them separate but also let’s me move a message to another account. Most of the current email clients use the 1 inbox for all, frankly I hate that. I’ve ran Thunderbird on Windows, Linux & macOS the interface looks the same across all & works the same on all, I like that.
I appreciate all the work that has gone into all the Thunderbird threw the years. Glad it is being activity being worked on I just hope that in all the modernization that’s going on the way it works doesn’t get broke, at least for me. You’ve got a big task ahead of you & I wish you well.
I use Thunderbird specifically because of the windows 95 era interface. Used to use thunderbird, but switched to another program, then one day I had a problem connecting to one of my e-mail accounts because the setting I needed wasn't available in their sleek and modern interface. That is why I switched back to firefox to regain a more granular control.
Our goal is to accommodate all users.
The interface should adapt to all needs and be familiar to everyone. We don't want to alienate any existing user.
@@alecaddd Alienating is going to happen. You can't "make" other people happy. Happiness is a personal choice inside ones self. I want the colors back in the icons. With a lot of programmers going with the way Windows 10 and 11 looks, it looks soooooo bland and flat. At 1:16, that looks sweet! The little things make the big things. When all colors are removed or made flat...you're removing the fun.
@@alecaddd One of the keys; I have decades of experience with the current interface. I support elderly family members with similar long-term experience with the interface. I don't know what "modern interface" will be, you allude to it without ever giving a hint of what that means (and indeed, what I was looking for when watching this video). I fear problems supporting people who have known only the existing interface, and are no longer so flexible as to easily be able to accommodate massive changes. Please preserve a mechanism so those who are used to the current interface to can continue to use what they understand. Regards,
@@biblebadcopycatofcuneiform8210 I also like the 95 to XP era look. Menues at the top, main functionality buttons below and then the data viewer. Clean, easy to understand and navigate.
I agree. The Windows 95 era interface is the most efficient. Sure things can be reduced in terms of the depth of menus and such, but everything should stay high density. It's the most efficient layout for actual work. I have around 20 IMAP server connections in Thunderbird and there's simply no better way to see all accounts that is better than the node tree. If anything, I'd like the interface to be compressed even more to fit more on the screen. Lastly, please don't ever use MS Office style "ribbon" interfaces. Those are horribly inefficient and they eat up tons of valuable screen real estate. I prefer Windows 3.11 style icons that are compact and efficient.
"as if windows 95 was the pinnacle of UI design"
Just look at everything since Windows 8. Even windows 11 sucks. Compared to that, Windows 95 was indeed the pinnacle of UX.
LOL, true, Windows didn't really improve much with time, I picked a bad example :D
Yeah, it actually was. If I could go back to how Windows 2000 looked like, and keep Windows 7 icons I'd do it in a heartbeat.
I love Thunderbird and will always want an email client on my PC. I am not interested in on-line email only.
My only complaint is some time ago the right click option to Delete Message was moved to the middle of the menu and made harder to select. I remember it used to be at the bottom (?) and easy to select. (This affects me when I am using mouse only, which is usually the case.)
I think the UI needs to maintain the general workflow. I do not use TB for its advanced features. I would like the TB would have a way to select a "Simple UI". I don't mind the look that it has now but feel a new look should not interfere with the workflow.
Thunderbird is great. I have used it for 20 years. It has everything I need. I don't need it to look new. The simplicity is my favorite part The best part was when Thunderbird incorporated a dark mode!
There is an old saying which I often find useful - If it aint broke, don't fix it.
7:07 "Windows 95 was the pinnacle" it was not, but Windows 2000 pretty much was. Colors used for signal value not for fashion. Flat monochrome pictograms is not an improvement of icons.
Please keep Thunderbird navigable by keyboard, it makes Thunderbird fast to use for experienced users.
Please keep menu bar available. It makes it easy to explain by text or by voice what you have to select to get a certain function. E.g. to reopen tabs after an app restart: Main menu > History > "Restore Previous Session".
Looking old is honestly my most favorite feature of thunderbird.
But as of now i really like the UI changes from the last versions, so currently i don't have anything to worry about.
It's funny how many of the "new" interfaces don't hold up to real work. They look cool, but they work horribly. Microsoft's office interface comes to mind.
@@AquariusTurtle if interfaces are designed properly there's nothing wrong in the new trends... I don't think that that a lot of older interfaces were better, instead I think we just got so used to that they feel natural now and we can do stuff without thinking much. That's why it is important to change as soon as possible to a properly designed and coherent interface so we can get used to faster and get back to feel the interface as natural again. In other words if the interface is properly designed, the less changes, the better.
@@AquariusTurtle I have to disagree. Though I had initial misgivings about the Office changes (and it's changed many times in the past decade or two) they've worked better when I gave them a chance. I realized it was partly me being stubborn out of nostalgia.
@@Yggdrasil42 The ribbon is made for newbies and casual users. The order of icons and presentation groupings were designed by committee at Microsoft based on a distribution curve. The problem is that most people write 1 page letters. If you do work like write books, do 50 page spreadsheets, run custom VB macro code, do technical writing, etc., the ribbon is the worst possible interface. It's slow by virtue of hiding many of the needed functions and forcing you to hunt. In the older toolbars you could place far more functions on a toolbar, which could be docked anywhere. That's not possible with the ribbon. And the ribbon takes 3/10s of all the vertical space, which is a ton. Again, the ribbon is fine for casual users but not for workers.
@@daicon3 agreed. Windows' new interface, for example, leaves you wondering what has focus, what are window borders, where you are on a page (since the scrollbars are tiny). At least in Windows 95 and 3.11 you could always tell what was what. Scrollbars were always scrollbars. Buttons were always buttons. You weren't screwing around with endless depths of non-hierarchial pages with a GUI that seems to emulate a cellphone.
A little worried. Been using this email client since April 1996, back when it was Netscape Mail. Reason: it beats everything else for usability and function. Talk of 'modernising' makes me worry that I'll have to look for a new client. Seen so many UI dumbed down and ruined to cater for the 'modern' user. Let's hope it is configurable enough to minimise the downgrade.
IMHO Thunderbird should concentrate a little bit more on company users. Management tools that make it easy to roll out and manage TB in a corporate environment (e.g. via GPO) would be great: An out of the box experience where TB configures email, address book, calendar for a new user that opens it for the first time on his/her corporate device or even customizing the UI centrally for all users would also be nice. I think the one of the reasons that Chrome is now installed on nearly every company device is that they had all the management tools for the everyday Admin and Firefox didn’t. And: If you know a program from work you are more likely to install it at home as well.
I just can't overstate how important Thunderbird has been to this point for me and will be for the foreseeable future. It's the only viable independent email / calendar / contant management application which just works and allows seamless switching between Mac, Linux and Windows while being able to easily transfer the settings. The task of easily managing multiple email boxes is so important that it cannot be migrated under any single webmail provider where there is even a sligth risk of the account being shut down beyond reasons out of users control.
gmail
lol, nope
@@kumoyuki Why should I give all my email to an advertising/data mining company?
@@JohnHughesChampigny Yes, I used to follow that religion, too. Suffice it to say, that I think that I get sufficient value out of gmail in my use cases to be worth the exchange.
I actually like the current UI...
It made me laugh when you mentioned that Win9x reference... Yes, I got XFCE4 looking exactly Like Windows98, and I think it is the best thing ever, so you got my demographics well.
Changing the interface into what I am guessing is the generic boring minimialism type will drive me away from using it but hey, I still wish this piece of software the best, I always liked thunderbird. I will just steer into TUI mail applications, but hope Thunderbird gets more new users.
I moved to Linux when I could see that MS was abandoning its old ways of doing things. I have KDE Plasma set to look and work much like Win2k... it's closer to that paradigm than Windows itself is now.
Im happy with how thunderbird currently is, has the same feel as outlook express back in the day. I also install it on many peoples computers and most prefer it to the modern Outlook.
I brought my first PC 1995 and from day 1 I've used Mozilla software, first with Netscape Navigator/Netscape Communicator and then on to Firefox and Thunderbird. In the 28 years that I've used it I have had no regets. Keep up the good work.
13:06 "New services coming out to increase the revenue stream" Does this mean we can expect to see some services of Thunderbird to be locked behind paywalls?
TB is my everyday companion, I use it for everything email related, it keeps opened 24h a day, everyday and I use it in my job, it is just fast and easy to use.
And yes, I use it since the days it was part of Netscape.
Please, keep the interface "cluttered" with buttons that look like buttons. Microsoft et el have done a disastrous job of stripping away what I want to see when I want to see it. They've made me feel powerless as a user because they've turned their mail client into a 3 button Fisher-Price disaster.
As clunky and old as Thunderbird might feel, it's still leaps and bounds better than Outlook.
And we will keep making it better!
I have used Thunderbird for many, many years and honestly can't think of any significant complaints. The user interface might be getting a bit long in the tooth, but it offers everything that the majority of users need.
Nothing wrong with Thunderbird. One of the best features is the ability to selectively backup mail folders. Firefox can be quite buggy but I've been using T bird since the start without any issues. Don't fix what ain't broken with the exception of attachment overhead padding.
I think I have used thunderbird ever since it came out. If you compare thunderbird to something like outlook, Thunderbird blows it away. I run exclusively linux and backing up a profile is extremely easy. The auto-configure for email almost always works and when it doesnt you can trace it back to something stupid that providers like At&t do.
The only weak point in thunderbird is the fonts. Incorporating the ability to change the font sizes in 'Settings' for the main menus areas and overall look would be a plus.
My main reasons to keep Thunderbird on my (friends') desktops are: 1. Better search options than any e-mail client I know of. 2. Cross-platform compatibility. Whether people I help/ support prefer Linux, Windows or MacOS, I can always secure/ backup personal profiles and port them between OS'es. That said, I hope for a proper port of TB to Android and maybe iOS once the legacy code has been eliminated. One bit of advice however: I love Firefox, but I hate Mozilla's PR department. The reason for that is: Constantly imitating Chrome, dumbing down the UI/UX and pushing pet projects like Pocket and temporary colour theming at odds with the main reasons I chose Firefox: adaptability and respecting privacy. Another thing Mozilla has handled quite poorly is the plug-in developer support especially when switching from XUL to a more modern counterpart. I never use plain Firefox without plugins, except at the time of install, just before adding the plugins. Please try to write extremely good documentation on new API's before abandoning the old and actively listen to plugin developers' concerns before replacing the old.
Thunderbird is the best standalone email client, in my opinion. That is why I have used it across multiple OSes for over a decade. Can it become better? I suppose it can. Just remember that change for the sake of change is not progress.
As someone who regularly uses multiple email accounts which should be kept separate (work vs. personal), I have rejected otherwise good email programs in the past which tried to force a single unified inbox. Beyond not wanting that, I specifically want to not have that. If thunderbird continues handling multiple accounts as well as it does today (January 2023) then I will be happy.
I remember whien Microsoft made WIndows "modern" -- it was called Windows 8, and people hated it. I remember when K-9 on Android overhauled to a "modern" interface -- people hated it and I switched apps after many many years of usage. I'm hoping you don't ruin Thunderbird with UI over UX, the way many websites these days are too.
As someone who works in a corporation that uses Thunderbird I don't see it as old/unwelcoming or whatever. I look at it as business application. I don't care for the confetti throwers and laminar water fountains or whatever the modern "app design" calls for as they simply get in the way. Does it receive mail from IMAP/POP? yes? Cool! Does it send mail? yes? Cool! Can I view my mail? yes? Cool! Do I have to relearn how to use it because some designer wants to flex his arts degree and "refresh" the UI? no? Cool!
Interface looking dated is not a bad thing !
its a huge plus its why I switched around 2015 to thunderbird from MS outlook, I need my icons to have colors and when you droped usefull icons to switch to useless vector glyphs i almost droped Tb but then i found that Phoenity Icons extension...
I need my programs to have a proper title bar an empty title bar, except for title and the 3 windows buttons, i have 6 monitors and enough screen real estate I don't need a UI made for a 10" tablet, but what I need is a UI that's full of optical anchors contrast.
Also thank you for keeping the status bar its great to have one.
14:10 The big question is: What do the Thunderbird developers see as competition? Outlook? Teams? Messengers? "Personal communication application" can either be a glorified wording for "email client" or a dangerous threat of losing the focus what Thunderbird is about.
Please dont ruin it.
This new interface is hot garbage. Thunderbird was perfectly fine. You ruined a great program. I've locked everyone to 102 so none of this disastrous nonsense touches their machines.
Great feedback, thanks
I still use Thunderbird as my email client! I hate using email websites like Gmail and whatnot. I prefer dedicated email clients. Having said that, I also hate the Gmail and Outlook clients... Thunderbird is the boss.
"Thunderbird released a new version, and it still looks the same." - Yes, tell me you've never worked in software engineering without telling me you've never worked in software engineering, random quoted person. Looking the same is generally the intent - parts of the gearbox whirring away under the user interface have probably changed, but unless the release notes mention the UI explicitly, it should be pretty much identical to last time. Doing otherwise leads to one's inbox exploding from angry users.
I am still looking for a replacement for my old Eudora client. That first challenge is importing the 10,000 emails I have archived.
Please do not change the UI of Thunderbird. To me is the best email client this day. All other clients had gone in the direction of being similar to the Apple Mail application, and that sucks, they are less usable, especially for person like me that uses multiple mail accounts and has to manage a lot of emails each day.
Probably I wasn't very clear in the video, but it's our primary goal to keep supporting the current UI, allowing users that prefer the compact density and current layout to maintain it.
But as you love how it looks right now, we have many users that absolutely hate it. It doesn't mean that one group is right and the other is wrong, just different needs and different visual taste.
We will try to make everybody happy
@@alecaddd You can keep the "legacy" users happy by not ramming the latest interface trends down their throats.
Please don't copy firefox UI, it's ugly and hostile to the user. Almost every time I need to find a feature I have to search it online hoping other people have posted something about what I need.
My fear is that we will see the same development as with Firefox, breaking the user interface and adding features that nobody wants to alienate the users. Please don't try to copy others. People have chosen Thunderbird because they don't want to use Outlook or Google Mail.
Thunderbird user for longer than a decade and I have never heard these always occurring questions. Please do not ruin Thunderbird.
Using Thunderbird for last 13 years or so. I love its simplicity, minimalism and working with multiple accounts at the same time. I actually don't care that much about chats, calendar or even looks. All I need is to have it opened in the background to know about new emails.
Excellent work! Hearing about ui changes in Thunderbird has always scared me, I really like the compact view (especially because I am someone who gets a ton of emails each day) and the 3 column layout. Thunderbird is an application I have open at all times on my second monitor and that calendar in the 3rd column is the single thing that prevents me from totally forgetting about my daily responsibilities. I do hope that in the future that compact email display and 3 column layout will continue to be supported
There's literally no sane reason for us to remove that layout and the current compact UI
Since you mentioned 3 column layout, I will say that I am very much married to the 2 column layout with reading pane below the list of emails. I do not read my emails in a narrow pane along the side. As with other comments, the option to do either is most appreciated.
@@FreihEitner Which part of my video made you think that we will remove functionalities or prevent users from have the layout the way they want?
@@alecaddd There was nothing where you specifically stated that, but likewise little detail was given on what to expect from the referenced overhaul of the interface beyond removing "dialogs launched from other dialogs". I'm just nervous about what it might meant to modernize the interface and do away with the 90s aesthetic (which happens to work quite well for my use case).
@@FreihEitner I'll do more videos with an early alpha to show the progress and highlight how we're supporting both types of interface
Very interesting talk, with great info. Thanks for the insight!
Small note on the formatting: it helps to add a brief pause in between each [section] of the talk. This gives the listener a moment to breath before switching topics.
Good point! Thank you for watching
Thunderbirds logo is one of the most beautiful application logos ever.
Thanks for the explanation. I am a long-term user (pretty much from the start) and despite forays into Apple Mail, Spark, Airmail, Gmail etc. etc. I keep coming back to Thunderbird because, despite its (possibly) clunky looks, it has a functionality still unmatched by all the 'new kids on the block'...
You said >Thunderbird looks old, clunky, and inconsistent. I disagree. It looks nothing like Outlook. ;)
hahaha, thanks
I started using Thunderbird on OS/2 Warp 4. Nearly 20 years later, it's still the only email client I will use on Windows and Linux.
I really would like that you take an older version of thunderbird and highlight the differences with a mockup of what you will like to do and explain why the UX and UI is better and this is not your personal preference. Also highlight what pros and cons would have the new mockup. I think a video like this would really help users to understand why choiches were made that way and understand it is not just that nowadays devs designs for touchscreens.
Yeah, I’m making a series of video about all major UI changes to compare versions and highlight problems and solutions
@@alecaddd an highlight of thunderbird that is understated is that it is both featureful and slow changing. This means that once you overcome the learning barrier, you can enjoy the app for many years to come and you have plenty of time to adapt to changes.
I think this is often not appreciated in today professional software. The big example here is EMacs which is terrible terrible UX but still it’s a tool that you can use it for many many years. eMacs to me it is not worth but thunderbird it is.
Happy user since 2006. Thanks to all the team.
Cheers
I understand your position, but I hope you also understand that we don't want a repeat of what was going on with Firefox, where they had the 73096th UI revamp while there were huge problems like memory leaks and instabilities that made using it border on torture.
Don't know if they ever fixed that "Always open this file type with this application" bug where it flat out ignored the setting, because I eventually abandoned the browser entirely. If a usability problem can reach the bug report's 10th anniversary while the developers prefer to screw around with UI borders, as a user you eventually have to face reality...
For sure, these are valid concerns.
I can tell you that the interface refresh in Thunderbird is very much a "side effect" of the removal of technical debt and improvements of the underlying architecture.
For example, rebuilding the folder tree to move away from the XUL implementation will get rid off those annoying performance issues of CPU spikes at 100% which no one knows why they're happening, same thing for the message list, or the rearchitecture of the top toolbar to remove that messy code inconsistency that impedes accessibility and support for screen readers, and so on.
A new refreshed UI to appeal to newer generations is definitely part of our objective, but we very well know that if we first don't produce a stable, reliable, and feature reach application, all the fancy UI in the world will not do anything.
I've been using Thunderbird for around 20 years now. Please don't change the user interface! Whenever anyone decides to "modernize" their user interface they always make it worse. MS Office is a perfect example of U.I. changes gone wrong.
We will be the exception to the rule
Ok, so that video was released in early jan 2023, now we are in mid June 2024 so it's the 50% milestone of the renovation project. Is there any kind of mid-way project status?
About streamlining thunderbird, how many people actually use the newsgroup, chat, rssfeeds function in thunderbird?
Personally, I just never found thunderbird to be the right place for them.
This could just be me, but they seem to broaden the scope of the application to more than it can, and last I used them they really didn't feel all that flushed out.
That's a valid point. I can tell you that currently we have an average of 300k RSS feed users active per month (telemetry can be entirely disabled so we don't have the full picture) but already a lot of users use that specific feature.
It's always a difficult balance on where to put resources and what to keep.
@@alecaddd That is more users than I expected, I may have chosen a bad example here.
Just tried importing a xml file from inoreader just to check, does work reasonably well, but it does seem like something that has not gotten a lot of attention.
First thing I noticed, it showed a nice tree of categories with individual feeds below it, before importing, but after importing I all the feeds lumped together in one folder with no easy 5 second way to click on the individual feeds. I also personally find them being placed below the e-mail accounts kind of awkward, and to me, it would have made more sense as a separate tab like chat or calendar. But those are the thoughts of someone who does not and does not plan to use the feature.
Just looked at the stats page, and it does seem like the third most used account type, so I guess it may be the wrong example. Still, it is just roughly 2% of the user that use IMAP that does put things into respective. A lot of the chat options have even less users.
Not saying it should be one way or the other, but still.
Been using Thunderbird since 2003. Keep going! Love what you guys have been doing.
Keep in mind, Thunderbird is right now the must go email application for Blind people. Keep them and screenreaders in mind! For example when Thunderbird starts up its vital to put the focus right away inside the Inbox. Right now the focus if nowhere (start thunderbird, move your curserkeys up and down, what happens?) THAT is where Design comes in place being able to use it blindly.
I would like to echo thanks for the information here.
I've used TBird pretty much since its beginning and -- I must admit -- am really OK with the interface, being kind of long in the tooth myself. One serious request I do have, though, is better support for Google calendars. The current stuff works, kind of, but I use a mix of personal and corporate Google accounts, and the corporate one is not quite right. Sometimes events can be edited, sometimes not. usually changes show up, but sometimes not. GHub Light usually gets me out of a jam, but sometimes I have to resort to the actual web page using Firefox.
Anyway, I appreciate your work and difficulties and am just trying to draw out others that might have similar issues to help set your development priorities. I have no intention of changing to anything else, and do look forward to seeing your future development play out.
Please don't go to crazy with sudden changes and don't let the coders make changes just so they can justify their job. How about working on having the interface remember my settings so that I don't have to hit F8 to turn off the preview pane every time there is an update to the client?
If you are committed to rewriting the code to turn Thunderbird into something completely different then why don't you have a parallel project with a different name, introduce it as an alternative, and then phase out the classic Thunderbird client IF that is what the users want. I have used Thunderbird since day 1 and agree that it has slowly bloated and has many features I never wanted. I liked it because it wasn't that other one that shall remain nameless ,so don't let it become that please.
Forever time user here... I have been using Thunderbird since 0.1 or maybe 0.2 or whatever, leaving Microsoft Outlook Express, which was great at the time but did leave a bitter taste in my mouth and I was in search of a better alternative. Lovely to hear that my favorite mail application is getting the love and attention it needs.
As long as there is mail, I will use Thunderbird.
I'm looking forward to the UI changes. I'm a desktop user with a standard DPI screen so the current "tight" look has been perfectly fine, but I'm always happy to hear more customisation is coming.
That said, I am not at all a fan of the monthly release schedule. if Thunderbird starts bugging me to update as often as Firefox does, I'll probably start looking for a new e-mail client, or turn updates off entirely, which is not a good idea. I hope there will be a "critical security updates" release channel for those of us who prefer to update only when absolutely necessary.
Ta for the video, as I certainly learned a few things. I do like the way that Thunderbird is going, especially with the acquisition of K-9 (which I now also use). I'm looking forward to seeing what the next couple of years hold, for the project! 🙂
Thank you so much, we will do our best!
K-9 looks a lot like goggle mail. Why use something that looks like something else?
I'd rather have an Android email app that looks like Blue Main, but doesn't have the send mail problems.
@@DevilTravels You probably never tried coding an Android app
@@alecaddd no. I leave that to those who serve my demands. 😉
Great job on the video, and I wish you the best of luck with this herculean task. My only interest in the Thunderbird project is that you don't turn K-9 into... well into Thunderbird. The first thing I heard about your acquisition of K-9 was that you renamed K-9 to Thunderbird, and the 2nd thing that you were working on a redesign of the UI. Those are scary changes. As an end-user I don't understand Mozilla's obsession with UI changes to opposed to stability, performance and security improvements. The dramatic shrinking market share of Firefox does not support point that it's the UI that is driving new users away. It may be different for Thunderbird of course. It was bloat and poor performance issues that drove me away when I evaluated it way back in time, and ultimately I prefer the flexibility of an curses based email client. mutt's ui is from 1996(?) and it still works great.
Thunderbird is my daily driver for communication, planning, scheduling and productivity. I am very happy with it 💪😁
I'm not at all enthusiastic about Supernova. Is it form over function? I never though that TB looked old or was clunky -- it just got the job done. TB did NOT look old; the interface has NOT been bastardised! I don't want "modern" form, which might actually bastardise the UI. Making the UI appealing to new users is all well and good, but are you going to alienate your long-term user base? And this is exactly the problem I foresee with your appeal to leadership and vision: you are forcing change on users, thereby alienating them; same story as with Firefox. Making decisions not because they are trendy? I'll believe it when I see it.
If Thunderbird have outdated UI what can we say about Outlook? I love how Thunderbird looks and I don't like how Outlook looks.
I just hope you don't fuck up thunderbird the way firefox has been continuously brutalized.
We're doing this work also to be toolkit independent so UI changes from Firefox will not affect Thunderbird
OK, I'll confess... ... ... the REAL reason I started using Thunderbird way back when: It was NOT Micro$oft !!!!!
Windows 2000 *was* the pinnacle of the desktop based software design (okay, Windows 7). I am working on a large monitor, because I want to see my DATA, and not have 65% of my screen be empty "design-y" whitespace.
Please watch the Accursed Farms' video on the topic ("The GUI should do better. A lot better.").
You state that Thunderbird is considered clunky and old - but I don't have any problem with the UI feeling old - I think it's an advantage. Most "modern" user interface designs are next to worthless and are harder to use than the old interfaces.
Sure, that's your opinion and that's absolutely valid.
Many other users feel the absolute opposite, so our goal is to offer a flexible customization that can accommodate various needs and visual taste.