The Map Design Problem | Dead By Daylight Discussion
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 18 มิ.ย. 2024
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One thing that pisses me off about map design is the pallet inconsistency. Some maps like gideons and greeville square just have an obscene amount of pallets, some of which are literally right next to each other. as killer it's extremely frustrating to get these maps sometimes as survivors can just brainlessly pre-drop one of the 600 pallets on the map and not have to worry about making a dead zone for their team because nearly every pallet on those maps are safe for the survivors in one way or another. By the time you usually down someone 3-4 gens are done and there legitimately isn't even a point in continuing to hold your W key or death grip your mouse. Inversely, some other maps have so few pallets like Haddonfield that survivors are pretty much just fucked on their first chase unless that map has a god window or something.
Tbf, Gideon’s and Greenville are on opposite sides of the spectrum regarding pallet strength. Greenvilles pallets are mostly dogwater while gideons are mostly god pallets
your thoughts on LLEERRRRYYSS?
Yeah like the amount of god pallets in Gideon esp the bottom floor is obscene
@@Vgomes-go6ht yea pallets can be annoying but if they pre drop, cool, I break it and it be gone for good.
pallets really don't bother me. If I'm vecna I mage hand, or break. Everyone else I just break them. I break pallets every time and the number of times I see a survivor run for a pallet only to stop because they are confused about why it isn't there is amazing. And the confused reaction is hilarious to me.
@@dbdsaltminer someone calculated how much pallet breaking delays you in those pallet heavy maps, and it was worth a whole gen of progress. you may not mind it, but it's an issue, specially for killers without anti loop, not to mention, gideon has many nasty god pallets that you must break or they'll loop you there forever
10/10 Hawkins description when hooking people
There's also that one pallet on the newest map where its just leaning against a lone tree and floats in the air when its dropped, idk how they have that in there
Tbh I kinda hope it stays 😂 it's really bad design but it's given me some hilarious interactions with survivors and killers alike.
Every Alien fan winced at the pronunciation of Nostromo
Something I've definitely noticed as I've been playing the game more and more is I react to almost every map with "Ew this map"
Like idc that Im playing Killer, you think Im having fun on coldwin? I can't even see the generator I'm kicking my guy
I feel the need to preface this as not flaming because dbd comments can be wild.
Genuinely curious, what leads you to say rotten fields is aggressively killer sided? You mention the corn dead zone but that is basically the only negative aspect of the map. The map is incredibly large and has an easily accessible shack. The outside tiles are easily chainable, and the map has 3 guaranteed jungle gyms tiles and is the only Coldwind map to have a guaranteed Cow Tree. These tiles also almost always are in proximity to each other or pallet gyms. The generator spread is also very survivor favored by being fairly spread out. If your killer does not have strong mobility you are already at a major disadvantage.
i agree rotten fields is more annoying like if im playing doc or knight im basically fucked
For real, the only time rotten fields feels killer side is when you're playing hillbilly or other decent high mobility killers, otherwise you're gonna have a rough time
6:39
We are not the same
LLEERRRRYY
best map
Also, a long time ago, there was an old LLEERRRRYY brown map offering you could use to have a 25% chance to go there.
Somehow, it was bugged, and I would go there all the time if no one ran a map offering.
I love Lerys as a doctor main. Learning the layout of the map and all the spawns of pallets and windows is so much fun to get the perfect shocks of.
I miss the way that the maps were before their reworks. Maps actually felt like they had lighting and were interesting to look at. When Lery's was first reworked, there was actually interesting lighting and fog effects. But those got removed over time. Same with every other rework. It's why I've said that survivors and killer cameras should have different lighting properties. Killers have enhanced senses, show this in the game. Survivors shouldn't have everything perfectly lit for them. After all, they're only human.
That leads into creating huds for different killers, like making robotic/cybernetic killers have visuals to reflect that, or plague ridden ones have that too... but that's a topic for another time. To be honest, It's not just original killers who deserve maps. Paid ones like Ghostface, Sadako, and Pinhead deserve maps too. They even give potential ideas with the menus during that time (the birch forest alone would make Sadako's visually distinct to every other map in the game alone). Imagine the mall from GF's trailer as a map? It could functionally be no different to an outdoor map, just have it like an IKEA or something. Heck, maybe they could even make maps that aren't tied to specific chapters. It's not like they make players buy maps. Attack On Titan had a new menu when the collection came out, make a map based on that. The premise of DBD give limitless possibilities. And again, BHVR is just resting on their laurels.
i get your passion, but that ikea thing would be hated lol. the only way that would pass nowdays is ifit were a hybrid map like the arcade or the nostromo. An "open ikea" it's just an ikea lol, it would have a bunch of tall walls and halls and those maps suck for everyone involved (while nurse relishes). But i get what you are saying.
Thing is, they are going for consistency and balance (i know, you'll say how is this balanced? i didn't say they managed, just that they are aiming ofr it), so middle of the road features like the fog just add confussion and desencitivise the fashion side of this game (it starts lingering in this zone were now skins are pay to win again, or everyone is going blendette, etc you may say to hell with that, but skins are also a big chunk of what keeps the game alive, and people shouldn't be at a considerable disadvantage by investing in the game of all things lol, what kind of killjoy business practice is that), and things like the fog are neither real stealth nor actual clarity, so they are atmospheric for sure, but they aren't clear features in terms of gameplay.
Not to mention, they make the game less fluid. you ideally want the game to be accesible to as many people as posible, cut what isn't really clear in terms of balance and that only muddies performance and clarity, and go from there.
@@magical571 You’re assuming that the map proposed for GF is going to be like the game or Midwitch… I’d propose to design it like a normal outdoor map, with the aesthetic of an indoor one.
Well, they should have thought of consistency with their own lore first. The skins are already pay to get seen, regardless of the fog effects. Nothing would change from it.
And blenders wouldn’t be a problem because killers would still be able to see them. Different lighting for both sides.
People are still going to buy from the store, so it doesn’t matter what they do to change things rn.
What I Think they should do with the Badham Preschool maps is keep them all, fine. But combine them into a single map gameplay wise, where they are just variants.
Another issue I have with the forgotten ruins is that the endgame is way more killer sided as well. The gates are always incredibly close to each other and incredibly easy to patrol and there are like 4 or 5 hatch spawns that are practically exactly on that patrol path. Even if you have a key + left behind, a hatch escape is unlikely on this map.
true, but before the hotfix it was so easy to get to endgame with health and hookstates to spare, that you could still reasonably make a three/four man out by just trading and opening the gates regardless.
omg you described my exact frustration at hawkins lol. Not to mention, the last two times i got sent there it was via offerings against teams doing boon exponential shenanigans, and i was with the artist...on a map that has gens spread at three different heights.....and the second time as pig, which was a little better (ironic, since in almost any scenario pig would be worse, but hawkins happens to be the one map were gens can spawn on three diferent floors so you can't make good use of your birds at all)
all just say, it was hell, i had a heartstroke trying to win that. i did get a three K the second time, but it took an insaaaaaane amount of effort against people who went there with the clear intention of abusing the length of the walls, unreliavility of the doors and acces to hooks, etc and of course, they insulted me afterwards even though i won as an m1 killer on the border of a stroke without tunneling lol.
Not to mention, hawkins, to me (personal, biased opinion) looks like a "test" map. it doesn't feel like a real place or map except for that one room with tainted glass. The rest is a bunch of plain white and yellow stripes. it really looks like i was dropped on a testing match were textures and such haven't been applied yet. Someone could say it was on purpose since it's a lab? but i don't feel that way about lerry's for example even though it's a clinic. Hawkins is way too plain and white for dbd, they could have done their own twist on what an experimental lab would look like in dbd. instead it's just, plain white room with a stair x6, and as mentioned, hooking there is an awful experience, and survivors know and abuse it lol.
Greenville may have alot of pallets but often in my games if i go there the 5 gen is in the forest anyway with the only outlier gen being the theater so after all the pallets are gone its still a 3 gen in the forest just no pallets lol
The fact that some maps pallet density is so bad that even with endurance and fury you sometimes can still get to another pallet. 16m is suppose to be a minimum gap not a real thing
Yeah , have you seen any videos with old haddonfield? that was THE nightmare i wont lie. Hopefully we get a continued variety of maps since yeah behavior cooks with the actual looks of theese things
I'm relieved to hear I'm not the only one who thinks Lery's is the worst indoor map for the same reasons as I have. The whole Hawkins bit had me rolling btw 😂
I beg for the several hour long rant of the maps. It would be so therapeutic 😂
yes please!
Maps should be killer sided. However they should always start survivor sided. That way the killer feels like they are more oppressive as the game goes on.
For that reason all the maps feel bad and killers feel weak to play.
It depends on Killer
Some Killer are on maps stronger and some not, its hard to balance for all Killer have same Killrate on all map
@@muysli.y1855 I don't think that is factual. Mainly that the kill rate has to many variables to be reliable for balance.
Bring trappers old map with the double basements. It was so terrifying
I don't play DBD as much as I used to. I find the game does get boring to quickly because you do the same thing all the time. Some maps are to big which make more pallets for the killer to waste time breaking. Survivor perks are annoying. Killers don't get much benefits from Hex totems because they get destroyed at the start of the game
Map design is a big issue why I hate mmr as it feels like the map has a huge factor in results.
from what ive seen, maps more favored to killers like midwich and dead dawg saloon are enjoyed way more by the community at large
I guess the idea is to make more maps centered around killers. Of course we can't have all of the maps ridden of their pallets and good windows, but make it more... "pleasant" for both sides.
i mean, dead dawg is also the little darling of bully squads lol. They'll send you there on purpose for one reason and one reason only, the main building.
i like that map, but the main building has a stupidly easy and long loop, with plenty of checkppoints, it takes very long to call the entity since it's a double door and double window loop + stairs, bambozle won't help you since it cun be run both ways, it has an alternate counterclockwise path. and it has plenty of lockers along it's optimal way for stupid head on plays too lol, the hooks in the middle are also easy to sabo and you don't have to go out of your way to die on the stairs, it happens naturally lol, so boil over plays, bodyblocking etc happen come around easily.
i like it but that's only because i'm aware of the options survivors have there, you have to let go of the middle lol or you'll be stuck in a 5 gen chase. it's like knowing to never eeeeeeever loop at the pantry in grim pantry, thing is, the main building in dead dawg is way more central and prominent than the pantry in grim pantry.
It depends. what do you hate more, pallets? then meat plant is your enemy. strong loops? then pantry, dead dawg and lerry's are your enemy
My main reason why I hate Toba landing:
THE COLOURS!!! I get simple migraine playing on this colour vommit abbomination called a map nearly anytime! No kidding, I need to put sunglasses on anytime the nice rng puts me on this hell. I HATE IT. pls behaviour, we need the ability to block one Map for us Q_Q
i have conflicted feelings about it :c i genuinly like what they did with the ship, the mix of organic matter plus the rememnants of the crew, and i like that they tried a radically different color pallete to what they had before, or else every map would just be a shade of grey/blue/green, but the colors they ended up with do look like acid reflux :s i hate to say it.
My only problem with maps as killer is that that first chase really makes or breaks your game. If you have a bad first chase, up to 3 generators can pop in a span of seconds after it ends and the game is an uphill battle from there, which makes that first chase so important. I feel the best course of action would be to remove map offerings and allow everyone to choose from a map pool in which they pick 2 maps they want and can Veto 1 map they don’t want. The most popular picked will be placed into map pool with higher chances of getting picked and the least popular (most Vetoed) will be taken out of the map pool. This would allow both survivors and killers to strategize and find a map that works for your survivor build or the killer your running. Don’t want Lery’s as Billy? Just Veto It!! It’ll never get added but it would definitely decrease the amount of frustration and anxiety players get when it comes to map selection, they’d go into a match knowing which maps to expect and which ones they don’t have to worry about!
that sounds nice on paper, but how would this proposed system account for the fact that there's 4 survivors for every killer?
@@just_tired701 like I said it’s an idea, I don’t have the system fully fleshed out in my head, just throwing it out, ya know?
@@konajohnson6182 Maybe survivors as a whole add up to 1 vote, they could vote in lobby kinda like how you vote for decks at the start of a match in teamfight tactics. So you have 1 vote from the survivors, 1 from the killer, plus rng options. a certain side may get their token granted, or maybe nobody does, since it would work in an odd number, survivor, killer and "game". im not sure about vetoing though, there should always be a chance for every map spawning or else the pool suddenly becomes highly restricted and easy to manipulate...plus you would need a turn system in the lobby to implement a veto (or else someone may be vetoing somebody elses offering....). i'm all for a 1 token for each side though. Simple, not a guarantee, but fair enough
Perry the Platypus!!!! Why did you predrop every god pallet?
I used to think
“maps should be killer sided. but only let survivors use map offerings for advantage and killers can use the wards to cancel them out too”
but I’m not so sure anymore…
I think if your playing to 12 hook survivors the maps are bad. But if you're play as, I don't know. A killer! The maps are fine. Tunnel, camp, slug, do whatever. And if they cried if because they died.
dead by daylight
dead by daylight
And they literally just added Yamaoka and Ormond variants
such bad timing
I hate autohaven wreckers for that exact reason. They all look exactly the same design wise and all have annoying loops to play.
Swamp is another that has a very strong main building and foliage everywhere and is way to massive.
I actually love rpd but yeah sometimes it can be annoying. I dont hold 3 gens and when i do a single chase and come back usually both main gens are almost done
Oh ye ol garden of ''PAIN''!!! Never going to forget that map.
like how you talk about the red map on red why does not any one complain about the gens being red and the arura is red making almost imposable to see a survivor for us that have eye problems for killer
This isnt even a surprise maps have always been dbd’s issues, you can look at all the maps and every single one of them has an issue even the balanced ones dead dawg stupid main for survivors but to compensate its small and gens are touching each other, coal tower strong main but again its tiny with gens super close to each other, imo the most balanced map in all of dbd is undoubtedly wreckers yard but it has one issue shack is in the middle and the middle is filled with tiny pallets that sometimes connect to tiles, I could go on you could see it with the new map now it’s nerfed but as killer no reason to go underground just stay upstairs and hold 4 gens up their, map design have always been the devs biggest weakness when developing, they also fail at map reworks.
Imagine, ome day BHVR will add another variation of every Autoheven and Coldwind map. Like with Macmillan already.
erie of crows i hate as killer like everything down to design and loops like balanced lady on that main area is fucking busted its like old haddonfield , rpd depends on which side if it spawns with burning heli then god no, i dislike both xenomorphs and singlarity maps just cuz of main building
also i semi enjoy dead dog as long as i fucking avoid main building
fuck garden of joy
seems bhvr cant balance main sections that well tbh
And watch the entirety of One Piece 😂
As a killer main the worst maps I’ve played on while playing killer is eerie of crows, meat game plant, RPD, and garden of joy, my favorite maps on the game when I play killer are Greenville and the new map, but when I play survivor regardless I have fun on all the maps I play
Could've said that whole thing without "As a [identity]"
New map as surv is dogsh*t
Man I hated OG Haddonfield but always loved it cause it’s my fav horror franchise the fences/infinite window clutter etc love it now even with the gigantic street made for monster trucks only map I really don’t like is crows it’s so bright negates trapper hag stealth killers etc and at this point I’m assuming swamp will just never get reworked lol 🔪🎃
Macmillan should be Suffo 1 and Storehouse 1, the rest of the maps suck.
Autohaven should be Gas Haven and Azarovs, the rest of the maps suck
Coldwind should be deleted from the source code. I've never seen an entire realm fall from grace like the farm maps. These maps were some of my favorite back in the day but like always BHVR went too far in one direction and didn't stop. They nerfed meat tree to the ground, removed a bunch of maze tiles, made harvesters weak, made more unsafe pallets, spread out the pallets, and made every main building in this realm a joke for survivors. One or two of these changes would have been fine but they used Lampkin Lane logic on an entire realm which is unforgivable.
LLEERRRYYS late fish
Macmillan Auto heaven Cold wind >
Map variations are fine, they are actually a positive, as long as the variations are all grouped together and counted as a single unit when it comes to map chance. The MacMillan maps are different enough where it's fine for them to be counted differently, but maybe Bhvr could weigh them less heavily: for example, if most maps like Nostromo or Midwich have a 5% chance then Suffocation Pit has a 3% chance. MacMillan Realm would have 15% chance in total despite consisting of 5 individual maps (Obviously the numbers aren't exact). Badham maps should just be updated as variations instead of separate maps. What we have now is a relic of the past.
is it just me or are scratch marks way more delayed and harder to see? maybe im color blind...
some people run lightweight on characters like ada, but i don't know if this is what you experienced
Love that the devs are nerfing the new map and making it even more killer sided.
how so?
you must be trolling right?
I'm a medioocre survivor and even i noticed on day one how to abuse the gens undergound, and the loop around the library + the portals, not to mention the lack of hooks. i never saw so many wiggles in my life lol.
I loved the experience as survivor, dreded it as killer lol. and after a merely two days, you already saw killers just letting go of the library entirely and playing only on the plain and boring first floor. which was pretty unexciting as both killer and survivor.
Been saying for years, just add seeded maps. Have people test them out on a PTB. Grab some of the better players and have them test it out over 25-30 games or so. Then ship it. A big point you made was aesthetic. They always nail it but dear god do the "aesthetic and accurate maps" feel so awful to play on. Also, yea 100% miss the "painted" style they had before, but sadly they said they'll never do it again.
I fear map reworks now, because every time they do it just becomes hyper safe and miserable to play on. Except Haddonfield. I have no clue what they were thinking. From hyper survivor sided to good luck if you load in as survivor.
I can understand the irritation indoor maps can bring for a wide spectrum of dbd players. Oddly enough. I love them! Including RPD. Maybe because I love to play doctor and know these maps like the back of my hand. Especially Lerys. Knowing all the tiles and the ways maps are is a part of the doctor denying all the loops. It is really fun learning all the pallet spawns and window spawns. The indoor maps also bring a factor of chaos into the matches that I adore.