Lutheranism REFUTED by ex-LCMS IFB Pastor

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  • เผยแพร่เมื่อ 29 พ.ย. 2024

ความคิดเห็น • 108

  • @joseortegabeede8233
    @joseortegabeede8233 7 หลายเดือนก่อน +27

    Praise the Lord I left the Baptist church and my wife left her charismatic upbringing and we were confirmed in the Lutheran church in May 2023.

    • @Solideogloria00
      @Solideogloria00 6 หลายเดือนก่อน

      Same here. Praise the Lord

  • @classicchristianliterature
    @classicchristianliterature 7 หลายเดือนก่อน +39

    As someone who was in the IFB movement for 10 years, I can confirm that many times the sole purpose of a sermon was polemical.

    • @divinityofblackness6330
      @divinityofblackness6330 5 หลายเดือนก่อน +3

      this "sermon" was mind numbingly boring and irritating to listen to. It doesn't help that he speaks too fast...
      Bless you for leaving the IFB 🙏🏾

  • @doubtingthomas9117
    @doubtingthomas9117 7 หลายเดือนก่อน +19

    As a former Baptist and current Anglican (with strong Lutheran sympathies) I enjoyed this video. It was like watching the me of today critique the me of thirty years ago 😂

    • @divinityofblackness6330
      @divinityofblackness6330 4 หลายเดือนก่อน

      same bro, same.
      I'm in the Messianic Movement looking to bring sacramentology there.

  • @BirdDogey1
    @BirdDogey1 7 หลายเดือนก่อน +19

    I saw John MacArthur blasting Lutheran theology but failed to point out all his criticism was regarding the ELCA.

    • @ministeriosemmanuel638
      @ministeriosemmanuel638 7 หลายเดือนก่อน +15

      So his criticisms are basically strawman 😂
      That guy is a Nestorian Heretic

    • @isaacwojo3273
      @isaacwojo3273 7 หลายเดือนก่อน +5

      ⁠@@ministeriosemmanuel638He’s arguably more radical in his beliefs than the actual Nestorious. Which is a shame because I really liked the guy and his videos helped get me back into Christianity.

    • @stevekohl5351
      @stevekohl5351 4 หลายเดือนก่อน

      John MacArthur should be critical of his own church. This ELCA Lutheran believes that this guy is merely repeating false LCMS criticisms of the ELCA.

    • @theodosios2615
      @theodosios2615 3 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

      ELCA are not Lutheran, I don't care what they claim. Words either have meaning or they don't.

  • @mlc74
    @mlc74 7 หลายเดือนก่อน +7

    Jared you’re spot on. I’m an IFB survivor and now-Lutheran and I get soooooo tired of evangelical pastors preaching about how everyone else is wrong and they are right and for HOURS…. With no real purpose. It’s so refreshing to hear a Christ centered message and leave church feeling uplifted and not beaten down.

  • @Outrider74
    @Outrider74 7 หลายเดือนก่อน +19

    Alright, you two: you've opened a BIG can of debriefing worms with me with this video.
    As soon as you said "Independent Fundamentalist" I already knew where this was going. I spent nearly ten years of my early life going to an IFB church prior to my time in other denominations (pentecostalism/Wesleyanism/Calvinism/finally Lutheranism), and I can tell you pretty much the entire modus operendi of IFB preaching.
    IFB preaching rarely is truly expository or lectionary-based. Either it 1.) takes a topic and tries to bend a particular passage to fit the topic, or 2.) it takes a topic and sprinkles cherry-picked passages to support their preaching. Also, IFB preachers have a TERRIBLE habit of using stories as filler for time, or will repeat a point ad nauseum, just for the sake of lengthening their sermons, because oftentimes sermon length is equated with preaching efficacy. While I do give IFBs credit for at least proclaiming the raw gospel from time to time, far more sermons become rants than actual proclamations of doctrine, law, and gospel.
    IFBs also puts for the "literal" meaning of the text (read: literalisic reading). They will die affirming that all passages must be read literally.... until you get to something like "Baptism saves" (I Peter 3:21), or "arise and be baptized and wash away your sins" (Acts 22:16), or "Repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus for the forgiveness of sins (Acts 2:38), and THEN, all of a sudden, you can't take those passages literally. And that's not even touching the Lord's Supper.
    Or... if you REALLY want to have fun with an IFB parishioner, ask them what Jesus turned the water into in John chapter 2. They'll say "punch" or "wine that wasn't fermented." Never mind that NO SUCH THING existed until the 19th century. They hope you don't actually do the research into church history to learn that wine was just that: alcohol-mixed wine.
    IFBs also (at least the church I attended) based a man's Christianity on whether or not their hair was long enough to cover the ears or touch the collar (I'm not kidding). They would literally judge a person's Christianity on adiaphoric things.
    IFBs also brag about listening to nothing but the Scriptures for their positions, but like every other denomination claiming this view, they are inconsistent about this point. The minute a pastor or theologian says something other than an exact phrasing of the Scriptures, something other than Scripture is being presented. Yes, we want these presentations to be in line with Scriptural doctrine, but they will never be purely Scripture in the sense of a perfect repristination without explanation or elaboration. It simply is not possible.
    I could go on with a LOT more, but for sake of time and your sanity I'll leave off with this, gentlemen.

    • @divinityofblackness6330
      @divinityofblackness6330 3 หลายเดือนก่อน

      the alcohol bit made me laugh out loud. Are you being serious? I had never heard that! Are you being serious? 🤣 that's pretty cray-cray!

  • @chemnitzfan654
    @chemnitzfan654 7 หลายเดือนก่อน +14

    Also, when he says that Jesus only called older children to him that isnt true. Luke says he allowed parents to bring babies to him and he blessed them and used them as an example of faith as well.

    • @isaacwojo3273
      @isaacwojo3273 7 หลายเดือนก่อน +7

      Exactly what do baptists think it means whenever the Bible says entire households were baptized?

    • @divinityofblackness6330
      @divinityofblackness6330 4 หลายเดือนก่อน

      @@isaacwojo3273 It means there were no infants. It would be a bad assumption (in their minds) to assume there were infants in the house. Unless scripture explicitly says it then there were no infants.
      I don't know why they care. They don't even believe baptism saves anyways...so what's the point?

  • @MrAJW1983
    @MrAJW1983 7 หลายเดือนก่อน +11

    This horrible "sermon" really confirmed me in my Lutheranism. I'm even more open to the punishment of heretics after watching this. He has no business leading any Christians in any way.

  • @chemnitzfan654
    @chemnitzfan654 7 หลายเดือนก่อน +26

    At about the 42:40 mark the IFB guy said that the child Jesus called to was old enough to understand the English language. This guy is so KJV he thinks Jesus spoke English. 😂

  • @longstreet2740
    @longstreet2740 7 หลายเดือนก่อน +4

    My initial Evangelical experience began by the witness of an Evangelical Lutheran camp counselor in 1974 ( he was ALC and part of Lutheran Charismatic Renewal ) When asked concerning my infant Baptism in Methodist Church, he steered me away from any Trust, or confidence but Rather to Trust in Christ with faith the size of mustard seed. Was led to IFB churches and I believe GOD led me to sound theology. Read alot of Books from Moody, Dallas Seminary and Sword of the LORD ( Rice/Hyles) Ventured into more reformed minded groups in college but got led astray as far as assurance of Salvation after confusing theologies of Adult Baptism as taught by Oneness and Campbellite groups.

  • @maxxiong
    @maxxiong 7 หลายเดือนก่อน +3

    I am somewhere in between baptist and reformed myself, and I find some of the objections laughable.
    - Acts 8:37 was in the Bible when anabaptists were being persecuted, and only got taken out when Baptists were considered orthodox.
    - Confusing Lutheran and Catholic views of the sacraments
    - The whole section on Calvinism (if I understand what objective justification means, many IFB church actually DO affirm objective justification)
    Some of the IFB and free grace teachers really did help me understand the problems with modern issues like lordship salvation, but they definitely have a caricature of Lutheranism (and arguably Catholicism as well). I find it especially unhelpful when one person/group accuses another of heresy on the basis of their view implying heresy, especially when the accused rejects said heresy. Most of the time the accuser is assuming their own theology that the other group doesn't affirm. There is also the issue that according to the rules of logic, any contradiction implies everything, so by this reasoning a false conjecture in math would be heresy.

  • @frennysala7039
    @frennysala7039 7 หลายเดือนก่อน +3

    I'm a Pentecostal myself (Trinitarian) and even I have understood that "born of water" means "baptism". I'm surprised this Baptist stretched it that far. I asked my grandfather if we also hold baptismal regeneration and he said "yes" and cites St. Mark 16's longer ending.
    Although we do not hold infant baptism because we cannot see why a child should be baptised when he can't even confess our beloved Lord as the Son of God. We instead hold to infant dedication.
    When it comes to the sacraments (aye, I'm okay with calling baptism and the lord's supper as such.) I'm also beginning to see the Gospel in the sacraments and have asked my grandfather if he accepts a spiritual view on the eucharist (aye, fine with that word too.)
    He had a bit of concession for a spiritual view but I don't know about a literal one (not transubstantiation). Typically we're settled with a memorial view but we do not forbid ourselves to explore things from other traditions under the light of Scripture and guidance of the Holy Ghost.

    • @MissingTrails
      @MissingTrails 7 หลายเดือนก่อน

      I'm always surprised how much Pentecostalism has in common with the more blatantly Catholic traditions like Lutheranism and Anglicanism. I think your tradition exists in large part because of Reformed overcorrection. Can't put sacramental reality in a tight box forever, it's going to pop back out somehow.

  • @Slave.of.Christ08
    @Slave.of.Christ08 7 หลายเดือนก่อน +42

    Baptist theology detected, opinion rejected

    • @JeP-lz4ti
      @JeP-lz4ti 7 หลายเดือนก่อน +8

      I grew up Baptist. I never once heard the gospel, but boy did I hear every week about the Rapture. How I wouldn't even finish high school before it happened. One thing they loved even more than the Rapture was law. I guess it's the Rapture and law distinction. 😂

    • @lanetrain
      @lanetrain 7 หลายเดือนก่อน +2

      Based

    • @divinityofblackness6330
      @divinityofblackness6330 5 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

      I have not met a rational baptist preacher...all vitriol, pride, arrogance, etc.
      gotta say I've loved being around Lutherans 😁

  • @P-el4zd
    @P-el4zd 7 หลายเดือนก่อน +3

    Act 8:37 is in the ESV in the footnotes. Personally I think the KJV and the NKJV have a better textual basis. For the sake of argument it doesn’t change doctrine.

  • @chrisknoblock
    @chrisknoblock 7 หลายเดือนก่อน +3

    Part of this is a difference of views. The part where he's trying to say Lutherans have a works based theology is a slander. The confessions clearly state that God does everything and we do NOTHING. We can do nothing to earn our salvation. The only thing we are capable of doing is turning away and rejecting the gospel.

  • @CamGaylor
    @CamGaylor 6 หลายเดือนก่อน +2

    I was raised baptist. Happy to be LCMS

  • @Outrider74
    @Outrider74 7 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

    Addendum: Chris Rosebrough has cited Titus 3 and pointed out that “washing of regeneration” was understood as a Pharasaical LITERAL washing with water

  • @taylor48264
    @taylor48264 5 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

    Unfortunately an extended family member we love has gotten sucked into the IFB church/cult. Her new IFB husband monitors her communication, and isolates her from family and friends, and we haven’t seen her in months.

  • @Solideogloria00
    @Solideogloria00 6 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

    Praise the Lord I left the Baptist church and am part of the Lutheran church.

  • @BramptonAnglican
    @BramptonAnglican 7 หลายเดือนก่อน

    We love Lutherans in Canada. Thanks for the great video. 🙏🏿

  • @divinityofblackness6330
    @divinityofblackness6330 4 หลายเดือนก่อน +2

    as someone who got caught up in the evangelical movement...it was refreshing to see this since most of his objections are laughably bad. I used to use them, and I know they are laughably bad. I just like being reminded that I was there and I am glad to no longer be there 😅🤣

  • @voyager7
    @voyager7 5 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

    I saw this video a couple weeks ago, and the number of misrepresentations and mistakes are profound.

  • @P-el4zd
    @P-el4zd 7 หลายเดือนก่อน +3

    Technically Lutherans don’t have a dogmatic number of sacraments outside of the holy baptism the eucharist and absolution. Depending how one defines it. Absolution (private confession) is a sacrament that is closely tied to Baptism or a return to one’s baptism.
    Article XIII (VII): The Number and Use of the Sacraments.
    … If the Church chooses to consider the Sacraments rites that God has commanded, to which the promise of grace is added, then there would be three: Baptism, the Lord’s Supper, and Absolution or Repentance. Martin Luther generally spoke of Holy Baptism and the Sacrament of the Altar as Sacraments and regarded Confession and Absolution to be an extension of Baptism.

    • @ministeriosemmanuel638
      @ministeriosemmanuel638 7 หลายเดือนก่อน +3

      We consider Absolution as a Sacrament, so we basically have 3

    • @alephnaught8343
      @alephnaught8343 5 หลายเดือนก่อน

      there are at least 2 sacraments but no law about it, arguably other things have sacramental qualities.

    • @jackwalters5506
      @jackwalters5506 28 วันที่ผ่านมา

      ​@@ministeriosemmanuel638 a common view is that absolution brings us back to our baptism, therefore it is part of the sacrament of baptism and the number is 2. That said it doesn't really matter on how we count it so long as the substance is the same

  • @christianf5131
    @christianf5131 7 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

    1:21:56 does Rome preach a capernaitic eating? Maybe I don’t know what that means compared to the real presence?

    • @ScholasticLutherans
      @ScholasticLutherans  7 หลายเดือนก่อน +5

      No church body teaches a capernaitic eating. That would be that you eat Christ in the same way you eat a hamburger. Some people don't find my argument (it's not MINE to be clear) from John 6 about the diction implying capernaitic eating if you take it literally to be convincing, however.

    • @christianf5131
      @christianf5131 7 หลายเดือนก่อน

      @@ScholasticLutherans thank you

  • @drummerhq2263
    @drummerhq2263 2 หลายเดือนก่อน

    27:32 he’s completely right and Lutheranism is non-Christian and I need to get out of my Lutheran Church immediately and I truly do mean that. I’ve been praying about this for a while now.

  • @drummerhq2263
    @drummerhq2263 2 หลายเดือนก่อน

    As someone who goes to a LCMS church right now, I can see many falsehoods.
    I’ve talked to one of the pastors in our circuit. Baptism and communion

  • @andrewhrabina9322
    @andrewhrabina9322 7 หลายเดือนก่อน +3

    Love the coversation

  • @willkietzman1121
    @willkietzman1121 6 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

    He literally quotes Wikipedia... as of today, what he said is exactly what Wikipedia says.

  • @BirdDogey1
    @BirdDogey1 7 หลายเดือนก่อน +2

    Shouldn't pastors stick to preaching the gospel?

    • @ministeriosemmanuel638
      @ministeriosemmanuel638 7 หลายเดือนก่อน

      Just stay away from Fundamentalist Baptist, there are a lot of vitriol and nasty stuff that they preach that you wouldn’t wanna hear

  • @BertiferousRex
    @BertiferousRex 6 หลายเดือนก่อน

    The underlying video was recommended to me by TH-cam. i clicked on it to just check the comments... and they're turned off. of course.

  • @joseortegabeede8233
    @joseortegabeede8233 7 หลายเดือนก่อน +4

    We know IFB theology is false by the simple reason that it's BORING.

    • @ministeriosemmanuel638
      @ministeriosemmanuel638 7 หลายเดือนก่อน

      It’s false because it involves Vitriol against other Christians and has KJV cultism in it.

  • @WizardOfTheDesert
    @WizardOfTheDesert 4 หลายเดือนก่อน

    Independent, fundamental, separated, king James only, soul winnin, suit wearin, chicken eatin, hymn singin Baptist

  • @lemondedusilence5895
    @lemondedusilence5895 7 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

    Is Calov’s metaphysics publicly available somewhere?

  • @thethikboy
    @thethikboy 7 หลายเดือนก่อน +7

    Protestant denominations are derived from the Lutheran reformation.

    • @EcclesiaInvicta
      @EcclesiaInvicta 7 หลายเดือนก่อน +3

      Fax

    • @thethikboy
      @thethikboy 7 หลายเดือนก่อน

      @@EcclesiaInvicta No less appropriated for the solas, the core confession on salvation.

    • @Outrider74
      @Outrider74 7 หลายเดือนก่อน +5

      Well, yes... MOSTLY. Anabaptists (from which modern Baptists claim religiously ancestry) are a strange hybrid that might have borrowed from Luther, but were far more radical in their ideology. If you read about the Anabaptists, several of their chapters were frankly outright heretical.

    • @thethikboy
      @thethikboy 7 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

      @@Outrider74 There were Gnostic cults as well like the Cathars. But the solas still offer irresistible defiance of the RC.

    • @j.g.4942
      @j.g.4942 7 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

      ​@@EcclesiaInvicta did you mean 'facts' or 'faux'?
      Because Henry and Zwingli were never with Luther (I've even heard Zwingli had quietly begun before Luther)

  • @l21n18
    @l21n18 7 หลายเดือนก่อน

    The arguments against infant communion here honestly sound like the arguments against infant baptism

    • @lanetrain
      @lanetrain 7 หลายเดือนก่อน +3

      The difference is there is a specific warning and consequences for taking holy communion without discerning the body. There is no such warning for being baptized.

    • @l21n18
      @l21n18 7 หลายเดือนก่อน

      @@lanetrain you assume that would apply to infants the same way though, also are you going to withhold communion to someone with diminished intellectual capacity? Infant communion was the practice for early on it was pushed upwards in the age in the west in the Middle Ages and Protestant’s just went along with that after the reformation. If it was an aberration it was pretty early

    • @lanetrain
      @lanetrain 7 หลายเดือนก่อน

      @@l21n18 of course not. The exception doesn't make the rule

  • @JeremyBourgeois-zh8lu
    @JeremyBourgeois-zh8lu 7 หลายเดือนก่อน

    just fyi he is part of the new IFB

  • @drummerhq2263
    @drummerhq2263 2 หลายเดือนก่อน

    It’s just absolutely stunning the gaslighting that’s going on here.
    The only church that I’ve ever seen that is OK with sending R the non-Christian churches like Lutheran in Roman Catholics
    All other churches produce good fruit most often. I’ve never been to a Christian church and not felt welcomed loved but challenged.
    Holy Spirit is alive and moving in the Christian church. Producing good fruit my wife and I served the homeless for years.
    So much more to say, but then we start going to Lutheran Church. It’s in the neighborhood and for many years now we just sit stand sit stand and there’s a bake sale to get a new church roof and that’s about it.
    No worship, no, letting the Holy Spirit move, very mechanical and ritualistic, very Sacramento, very religious actually. No relationship with Christ.

  • @felixcharles9773
    @felixcharles9773 7 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

    1:42:20 I know who they are (I went to ULC) ;)

  • @longstreet2740
    @longstreet2740 7 หลายเดือนก่อน

    53:40 I believe Acts 8:37 is in canon of scripture. It makes sense to the question vs 36 . Gives clarity to the simplicity of Salvation ( Though I hold to a Pauline Dispensational approach, though maybe a soft one ie Late Dr J Vernon McGee, MR DeHaan.. ) I believe that It's GOD's WILL for everyone to submit to Adult Baptism Once their Born Again

    • @P-el4zd
      @P-el4zd 7 หลายเดือนก่อน +3

      Baptize babies are fully regenerate born again Christians.

  • @drummerhq2263
    @drummerhq2263 2 หลายเดือนก่อน

    20:56 that is so unfair. Gosh, you guys ought to be ashamed. You oughta repent. I don’t know any good Christian that doesn’t have a great concordance. Of course it matters and we always go back to the Greek, which is why Lutheranism on baptism communion is incorrect and heretical

  • @drummerhq2263
    @drummerhq2263 2 หลายเดือนก่อน

    When you say nondenominational, you mean a Christian church. The only church that dates back to the time of Christ. There is no other church of Christ but Christians.

  • @stefanlaemers3053
    @stefanlaemers3053 7 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

    Why did u guys make a blasphemous Trinity joke?

    • @EcclesiaInvicta
      @EcclesiaInvicta 7 หลายเดือนก่อน +4

      Can you provide the time stamp?

    • @stefanlaemers3053
      @stefanlaemers3053 7 หลายเดือนก่อน

      I don't remember when, but it's when they joke about Pizza hut and the like, calling it the "holy trinity' for the IFB from the time of constantine ​@@EcclesiaInvicta

    • @RevancedBurner
      @RevancedBurner 7 หลายเดือนก่อน

      ​@@EcclesiaInvictaI would assume he is referring to 36:54

    • @EcclesiaInvicta
      @EcclesiaInvicta 7 หลายเดือนก่อน +3

      ​@@RevancedBurner Thanks for the time stamp.
      I would urge brother Jared to repent and go to confession. This is unacceptable.

    • @Outrider74
      @Outrider74 7 หลายเดือนก่อน +2

      Yeah... you're overreacting to their comment a bit, friend.

  • @N1IA-4
    @N1IA-4 7 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

    Lutheranism refutes itself, actually. In the BOC, it affirms sanctification. Yet every sermon in every LCMS church omits the need for spiritual growth, holiness, and sanctification. It is strictly about "declaring that you are forgiven in the Gospel." That is hardly teaching the full counsel of God. I was a hardcore confessional Lutheran for nearly 10 years until the cognitive dissonance caught up with me. If men are indeed depraved as your BOC so indicates, then the congregation needs to hear MORE about how to amends their lives...not less.

    •  7 หลายเดือนก่อน +8

      ​​@@P-el4zddon't worry about this guy. He's a Papist and doesn't watch the videos anyway. He trolls around here all the time wondering if he made the right choice in leaving the Lutheran church.

    • @P-el4zd
      @P-el4zd 7 หลายเดือนก่อน +6

      I thought he was a Baptist responding to a video that was largely about baptism.

    • @Dilley_G45
      @Dilley_G45 7 หลายเดือนก่อน

      So sad...his nickname is an amateur radio call sign. I hope he isn't an amateur radio brother that is a Lutheranphobe. Used to be a fantastic hobby, my club president and me once drove from a field day event to Church on a Sunday morning. He was Catholic, and dropped me off at the Lutheran Church. Amateur radio .... we made connections

    • @Dilley_G45
      @Dilley_G45 7 หลายเดือนก่อน

      ​@@P-el4zdon his website it's still Lutheran if you read the url 😅

  • @drummerhq2263
    @drummerhq2263 2 หลายเดือนก่อน

    22:17 that’s the way it was in the apostolic era. Was headed by the bishop of the congregation that’s it.

  • @drummerhq2263
    @drummerhq2263 2 หลายเดือนก่อน

    5:23 no you show up to church to read the wall and perform the ritual

  • @drummerhq2263
    @drummerhq2263 2 หลายเดือนก่อน

    20:15 I agree with you here

  • @drummerhq2263
    @drummerhq2263 2 หลายเดือนก่อน

    3:15 what is entertaining?

  • @drummerhq2263
    @drummerhq2263 2 หลายเดือนก่อน

    7:36 just the fact that you call your religion after a sinnful man shows the error of your ways.

    • @jackwalters5506
      @jackwalters5506 28 วันที่ผ่านมา

      Lutherans never wanted to be called Lutheran, it was a name pushed on us from outside. We only adopted the name in the US during the revivalist movements when the name Evangelical, which is what we historically called ourselves, was appropriated by the movement now commonly called evangelicalism