We Accidentally Proved The Effectiveness of Karate (And Bokator)
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 13 มิ.ย. 2024
- We started out just testing some hilarious "self-defense" techniques, but as we started exploring how to actually deal with the situation, we started looking more and more like Karatekas. How did this happen? Let's watch and find out. For those of you who want to see in-depth tests of techniques, here's a super insightful video for you. We were not even trying to test Karate (or Bokator or kungfu or Kenpo for that matter), but the martial arts journey and spontaneity veered into certain blocks that you learn in Karate, and the magic just went from there.
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Timecodes:
0:00 Initial goal
0:21 The move we were testing
1:00 How we expanded the test
1:18 We rediscover Karate blocks
2:10 Boat cut water?
2:37 Examining our paradigms
3:27 Request for more content - กีฬา
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For anyone who can give us the Japanese karate names for the “blocks” we stumbled on, please leave them below! Thank you all!
The inside block is called soto-uke. The downward one is called atoshi barai, I think... Stand corrected on the spelling
One could say that the downward block is like a Gedan Barai
The one that comes from the sode is Soto Uke
小手鍛え「Iron forearm」is found in Okinawan Karate, Kung Fu styles that have Southern, Shaolin, Dragon and or Mantis influence - and SEA martial arts.
Theres also history of the sword & shield - shield bashing is similar arm movements.
Kuroobiworld has a great video on it:
th-cam.com/video/sHZRG99Z0tM/w-d-xo.html
It is also a staple technique for Stunts - Action stars like Donnie Yen, J.C, Scott Atkins note that its built over time, And they all say that people - Even Guest pro fighters who aren't used to it, feel the pain and are Very bothered by it when they film. And in stunts the full technique would never be used!
I learned them as inside outside upward downward, simple names learned them in akijujitsu, tkd, karate and kung Fu. Basics are important lol. Mostly the same with variety
Not sure if someone commented it yet but ramsey dewey has a video talking about these karate blocks and how they make much more sense in a wrestling context, he did some tests as you guys and reached the same conclusion. Also one karate sensei I know showed our class the same thing, the blocks would make much more sense in a wrestling situation where you are trying to free yourself from a grab or using it for assisting a joint lock. Then to finish, jesse "the karate nerd" also talked about that in the past karate had way more takedowns and possibly fast wrestling, not only striking as it mostly is nowadays. All of that lead to the fact that karate was not just about striking, which makes sense because in real fights you need to be able to do more than just striking and blocking.
From my experience the technique shown is best used if elbow down closer to their wrist while you drop your weight so their front deltoid is supporting your whole weight. From there you can pummel for an underhook. This has worked for me in BJJ here and there
The technique works well depending on how you do it. One thing you want to make sure of is to not go pass the shoulder points when you do it or else your opponent can easily hit you on the blind side.
In karate kata Heian Nidan first move, left hand performs such a "side block" and right hand performs a "high block " that can easily be interpreted as an overhead hook punch to your opponent head that is performed simultaneously with the left hand "block " , while you turn your body in a bladed position towards your opponent, so you leave no blind spot. Defend and counterattack simultaneously
You should talk about this to Ramsey Dewey. He has videos talking about how a lot of these traditional martial arts moves are grappling and hand fighting.
He’s not getting back to me anymore so either jet lag is getting to him or he became a tai chi master.
That first elbow one really puzzles me, because I've had lots of success demonstrating it with people who don't know what's coming. Granted that's not in sparring, but a noncompliant opponent is still comething. In my experience the trick is dropping almost all your weight onto the elbow, not just powering it with the arm. Love the content, thanks for sharing!
That is the trick, this dude and his entire channel is just not understanding half of the things he sees.
Most of the time it isn't even which martial arts work or what is bulshido, but it's just 1 person is simply a better fighter, and it flies straight over his head
Duuuuuuude! You gave me serious flashbacks to my childhood with this!
I studied under a guy who taught a karate and jujitsu class, his primary focus was practicle self defense for kids.
All of those blocking releases you do, he taught us, and they work pretty well.
Also, kudos to you and your neighbour for deciding to experiment with "what could work?", great mindset!
Chinese social media is fascinating. To think that there is a corner or the internet only legible by and accessed by a not-insignificant fraction of people who use the internet. We're glad to have you dig up these gems and present them to us with translations!
As an older guy who does martial arts, a thing that jumps out at me every time I see channels do like your do self defense techniques is how the younger folks who are steeped in a MMA paradigm have gaps in their knowledge for stuff that used to be beginner MA class stuff. MMA has been great for pressure testing fighters and arts. But it's been interesting also to see the evolution over the last 30+ years. It's like watching MA history accelerated, and each training modality is situational and specific.
Love it. Its always the case that exploring these things with another person with a willingness to examine produces just so much info. Thanks bro, and keep it up.
Glad you enjoyed it!
As a former Shito Ryu karateka (1st Dan) I totally agree, (I now do MT) the blocks Soto uke, and Jodan Uke, (the blocks that parry to the outside) are more interesting and useful to use with other purposes, (like in the muay thai clinch for instance) than the inside parries, like Uchi uke, Harai uke, These are very useful, and easier to apply. In muay it is very common to block kicks to the head with both hand, and even trap the leg, with an adaptation of the Morote Uke.
(In Shito ryu the Uchi uke is the inside parry and Soto Uke is the outside parry, I clarify this because in other styles they are the opposite.
These blocks are not just parry, they should hurt, they can also be used for joint locks, although that is easier to archieve as a preemptive attack, not in a cage fight.
Mawashi uke looks fancy but I´ve applied in sparring against the 1-2.
If you want to see good application of bunkai you shouuld check Daniel Pyatt ´s channel.
Thanks! I’ll check out that channel!
The thing is the technique only works if you know how to apply it along with some physical power to pull it off. As such this becomes increasingly difficult with difference between the physical strength of the people involved.
Wow! Great vid. Thank you
Hi Jerry,
FWIW, some of the movements you did in the video do exist in Wing Chun as well (Tan Sau, Gan Sau, Jam Sau, etc). The problem you were having is that moving the arms alone are not sufficient to dislodge the chokehold; you must also include movements to lower your center of gravity (i.e., from natural standing to a horse stance where you suddenly lower your center of gravity) and combine that with hip rotation to leverage further force upon the opponent's hand. If you sink to a horse stance (and turn your body), you may not even need the hand -- the mere physical movement of your chest relative to his hand would be enough to break the hold, or pull the opponent off balance.
From what I understand, these techniques are not exclusive to Kung Fu; they are also parallel to certain forms of Karate and Silat as well -- the only thing is that hand movements alone are not enough; you must combine the hand with your core and/or footwork to increase the effectiveness of the techniques. So instead of solely horizontal force applied by your hands, you are also applying vertical force from your core/center mass and lower body/footwork, which would be exponentially more force that will be more than enough to break any choking/grappling hands.
Quality video. Thank you.
Glad you enjoyed it
Very informative❤❤
Snapping twigs is a Kenpo technique that functions somewhat similar to a shotgun armbar if you want to check it out. I also have found the concept of checking knees super useful in stand up BJJ
Do you have a link to a snapping twigs tutorial?
@@FightCommentary the whole kenpo system is on TH-cam. th-cam.com/video/bcZzmdtM5zU/w-d-xo.html
That’s awesome! Thanks!
in Shito Ryu, the inside block is called Uchi Uke, and the outside block is called soto uke, contrary to the other styles. A strong Uchi uke, well timed, to a commited strike, can make the opponent lose balance and stumble. So if you are used to parry to the inside, give it a try. In Kyokushin it is a short parry movement, but in Shito ryu and the other not so kickboxing styles is more commited.
I love using karate blocks
I love that you are shifting the focus from just calling out the bullshido (which is needed), to finding what naturally works. That is probably how most traditional martial arts began. No rulebooks, just seeing problems, and finding solutions.
Thank you man! And could you just say bullshido in the future. That B word sometimes isn’t looked upon fondly by the YT lords 😔
@@FightCommentary sigh. Fine, I edited it
Tq for sharing
Hah, that downwards block is pretty much 'wax off' from karate kid! 😅
It all kinda depends on the type of "block/strike" one uses & where U impact. I've used the classic low & inward block effectively a lot (w slight modification) I don't like bone vs bone per se, so I adjust it a little...worked for me so far. But re-directing or avoiding is best I think; unless U wanna punish or damage the opponent's tool w your block. 👊
Best regards from Portugal 🇵🇹
Thanks for tuning in!
Where I teach Karate/TKD we teach the application of the inside and outside blocks you did as a counter to a lapel grab as one of many escapes! We don't use the down block for the same but I don't see why you couldn't use it.
Super cool!
It's high risk to rely on breaking a grab by using a block as the first move. Even with applied leverage, there's often an element of relative strength between the victim and attacker. What if it's a petite woman or a preteen versus a large man? What if the grip doesn't break even if you've applied the block correctly? If he's nice, maybe he'll just stand there and let you keep trying.
It's easier and much more effective to shock and distract the assailant first: Finger jab the eyes, palm strike the nose upward, strike the throat or groin, stomp the knee or instep (or any two in combination) _and then_ break the grip using any of the blocks found to be effective. In a lot of cases, you'll find that they let go themselves at that point, rendering a break unnecessary and freeing you to escape or subdue them.
I did Krav Maga as a kid and we had a similar technique for a situation where you are grabbed by the shirt and are being pushed back.
It started as the 6-12 elbow and than immediately shifts to an elbow to the face, all while walking back in a specific manner but I don't remember the rest.
Don't brush off a style till you've fully explored it
In choy lee fut the use of the outside of the forearm is called "pek" and it's used in sweeping motions like in karate, and what you guys did. It can be an attack or a defense. In this case you are basically attacking the grabbing arm in an attempt to break the grip. If I'm not mistaken, many bunkai across different karate styles teach them both as attack and defense too.
@@Carnage-Pepe well if you do it with enough force while holding your oponent's hand, you can alter his balance momentarily. That for sure can be used as a set up to engage in grappling.
I think, if indeed the Cantonese/Guandong Choy Gar is related to the Fujian and Taiwanese Cai Jia Quan, you guys got that hard bridge-of-the-forearms and bladed fingers stuff down from an older predecessor art, the Fujian southern Taizu Quan (and also Fujian southern Luohan Quan, albeit, with a more ball-and-chain biomechanics and balanced hard and soft approach).( Got it FIRST from that, I mean. Of course I know about the more recent developments, like Iron Wire and 5/10 Shapes, etc.)
Sometimes I think you guys don't quite realize how lucky you guys are, having such a laundry list of predecessor arts in your arsenal. I know you guys like to compete in full-contact a lot already, but hear me out. Just Choy Gar alone give ya methods in fighting close-ranged/small-framed, with them footwork. Lee Gar and Fut Gar (basically Choy-Hung, right?) give you guys, the more spinning.big-frame type of methods. You guys are aware enough to finish any over-committal spinning shit with a spinning hammer fist or back fist as backup defense. Not to mentioned, those big-framed swingging arms you guys got from Lama Pai/Hop Gar give you guys some ideas on uppercuts, hooks, and overhands.
All is left is proper full-contact pressure-testing and the subsequent modifying of said pros, and enough time, and who knows?
@@SeymoreSparda "those big-framed swingging arms you guys got from Lama Pai/Hop Gar give you guys some ideas on uppercuts, hooks, and overhands." - Sorry bro. We got NOTHING from Lama Pai/Hop gar in our gung fu. Our big swings come from the ELEPHANT in the animal styles. Lama Pai has NEVER been attributed to Choy Lee Fut in any way.
@@SeymoreSparda I can't really comment on the historic aspect of the art, but I can say it's true we employ spinning techniques when we over commit with something or our oponent forces us in some way to turn our back, like say, brushing a front kick aside towards our chest.
For the 1st siruation. the srike is to aim at kyusho(dimmak) point on the limb. I once get one big guy one head higher than me limbs numb and run away when he choke me from behind.But you need to execute it right and accurate.Want to check it? try it by keep squeezing areas around that part of your hand yourself. Another one is the area near your tricep which got a bone feel . You will regret it.
I guess what we can learn from your videos is Bulshido never dies. It seems like there's new Bulshido system conceived every second.
Yep. And also a lot of techniques have lost their actual use.
There's a lot classic martial arts moves that don't work. Keep exploring and you will find the ones that really does. 👍
I think most of them did but as they got passed down from person to person each became only a superficial version of the real thing, important aspects of how to make it work got left out or deliberately not taught.
@@markhatfield5621 agree 💯
You will have better effect if you anchor the hand with your hand same time you use the striking elbow now you have a release ,distruct,and grappling control,.also you may want to consider using a cross strike so as to release their hand from the opening of their hand ,decreasing the chances of fingernail rake across your throat.but to reverse your hands you may want to save your neck from scratches by grabbing the inside of wrist just before you strike with other arm while you rotate the shoulders and step back creating an arm bar
In Shotokan Karatê, it's called soto uke. How you saw, the best aplicativon is in grappling situations. Not to parry punches. Like most of practioners think. Ramsew Dewey make a vídeo about It. Times ago.
Thats so interesting!
@@FightCommentary yes, if you look weel, will see that is the same arms move. Used in this throw, for instance : th-cam.com/video/VJ5WmoX0JPU/w-d-xo.html
I see an element of wing chun with the simple down ward push. Wing Chun of course is all about economy of motion, both lateral and downward motions are effective and the forearm is where the strength comes from.
There's so much you can do against this type of shirt grab, with both striking and grappling. You can do a wristlock on the hand from jiu-jitsu, you can just start punching the person, you can raise your arm and turn your body (which they teach police recruits to do) and that last move can be used against a hand on your throat too
Yeah the blocks you do are textbook soto-uke and gedan barai from karate (kyokushin at least). Damn, even I would have never thought this worked on a hold, and I did 6 years of savate defense before karate
Thanks for the Japanese names
Learning joint locks from chin na ,aikido, jujitsu, the main point is you must be in movement the second the grab is being applied ,that downward strike will if the grab is just being applied and you are In motion, all self defense methods are just a simple breakdown for educational purposes, applications are furthering that education,next you have light sparring, then heavy sparring! Everything is a small precise educational movement!
The kenpo inside block right across the upper inside of the forearm or crease of the elbow really hurts-- throw it as agressively as you would a hammerfist. It’ll clear a long grab okay when you’re in that position.
I haven’t tried it in a dynamic situation--like in jujitsu. I think it would be considered bad ettiquette or even a foul. I think it would also be hard to pull off because of how fast grips evolve.
I wonder if kenpo 5.0 incorporates this stuff into the grappling paradigm
Now I need a sensei seth video reply on this....
There's a TH-cam channel named Karate Breakdown (and another named Karate Culture) has the most explored karate application.
Cool! Will check them out!
@@FightCommentary Another few more channel is also as good as Karate Breakdown, such as practicalkatabunkai and Jesse Enkamp.
I would say Jesse Enkamp is for kata exploration for newbies. practicalkatabunkai and Karate Breakdown (or Karate Culture) has in-depth exploration because they manage to correlate karate "blocks" & non-strike moves to be grappling moves. As Okinawan karate (before it went watered down in Japan by the founder of Shotokan karate) has grappling techniques due to its practitioners cross-trained with Okinawan wrestling (or Okinawan Sumo).
Okinawan Wrestling is basically near identical to Sumo Wrestling. And both mostly likely able to traced back to China which is Shuai Jiao.
One thing that is often not addressed with self-defense techniques is what is the intention of the attacker. In this case, the grab is used to control and unbalance the victim as their other hand is striking them.
How does your forearm work better than your elbow when using deflecting power? You would think it’s the opposite.
This is interesting 🤔.
you need to drive down with your legs and not just your arm. kinetic chaining. Just like the karate block/strike, you are using kinetic chaining. Hips, torso, legs are also involved. The karate move allows for a larger margin or error.
I hate when random people come up and grab my shirt. To add insult to injury, they just stare at me to see if I can break their grip.
Hey, I know the technic showed initially on the video by the girl. This technic has a problem: if his holding hand is very tense and he is a strong guy (i've been working in a GYM and visiting "rukopashka" - that's a kind of sambo i would say, the same time, so I met big guys from both worlds) - then yes, you won't bend his arm. In this case there is a solution: don't try to do it vs big guy or make him relaxed: instead of continuesly trying this against his big (50cm biceps) hands - kick his balls or knee, or hit his eyes with your fingers - theeeen, when he changed his focus on pain, you can bend his hand and there are great amount of technic you can continue with, to put him on the ground, or make a "police detention". It works the same as in grepling: if you can't make an effort to carry out the technique because the opponent is resisting and he is stronger - try to make an effort in the opposite direction, or, if there are no rules, "relax" the opponent.
PS: if you want a 100% success without a conditions and exceptions - then use weapon. Otherwise there is an "if" always. But yes, I agree, the technic is not the best, I would take his wrist to fix the grab of my t-shirt and kick his top of the leg (if there are rules) or his balls instead, so make his body bended and the same time his hand in my grab, then - continue with other "police technic".
Traditional martial arts were born on the battlefield
You need to lock/control the wrist to hyper extend the elbow with a strike, you cant see it clearly in the first video
I always cringe when I see unnecessary moves for a shirt grab when a spear hand to the throat or a hammer fist to the jaw works great. The main key is to not let the grab take hold in the first place and instantly counter. Just a note is that there are certain ways to hit the nerves with the basic blocks that is hidden, although with that said, simple and direct is key.
There is no accident, bruh. Welcome to Bonkai (Kata techniques used in Kumite contact sparring). That is how you understand what each Kata technique is for, and putting the techniques together becomes a Kata. 🙏🙏🙏🙏
And like you said, this way of learning the deatils of an art, is in every martial art.
Do you know the Kanji to Bonkai? Im curious what it translates to in mandarin. Thanks!
In 16th/17th century German wrestling, there's a lot of Karate style moves used in there grappling
Thats super interesting! Whats it called?
Try spearhand to right behind jawline
so cool
Thanks for watching!
Pull the hand down with your with your right hand, then after you pull with your right hand strike to the face or the chin or the nose with a palm strike better to hit in the chin and then hit with your fist to the solarplex that's the middle of the chest who doesn't know what a solaplex is. It wouldn't hurt to follow up with a growing strike. Then run away but make sure the person falls to their knees first. If that doesn't work follow up with a new strike to the Head and finally a kick to the head to make sure that they are on the ground. Then run away.
I’m myunderstanding after 50 plus years of train via 5 martial arts there is not a lot of hand conditioning nor seen is the use of the shuto.
These elbows in this case abdicated position by allowing the grab then moving across their own center line to use the other elbow opening up THe nage for a counter technique.
All that mitigated by a shuto across the ulnar through the
Pressure point initially targeted by the elbow
I think in grabbing the neck, just putting your chin down would eliminate most of the effectiveness even though one could grip with the fingers. Yet, I feel it would not have that much pressure on the carotid artery.....
One important thing you neglected to discuss was WHY one variation worked and not the other. Visually, the one that did work looked weaker. In the scenario presented, I think most would instinctively go for the one the lady demonstrated.
TKD also has this same block in a couple of the forms
What are the blocks called btw?
@@FightCommentary I don't know. I didn't attend the forms classes, which is the reason why I quit TKD. The instructor expected us just to learn the poomsae without understanding how to apply the techniques. The only thing I remember is that one of them ends with that block, but you're supposed to jump forward while doing it and kiai which makes absolutely no sense.
Please look at the American Kenpo way to deal with that.
Practice and being fit is the best way for effective karate or self defense against armed assailant, but it's different story for multiple enemies or armed 😅
Use your whole body to power your attack. In the video, you used mostly just your arm. The elbow is the point of contact that will transfer the power generated all over your body.
Those downward elbows are so light, of course they don't work 😂
Same idea as some other comments ... the first technique you tried should not be a downward elbow strike, but instead you fold your tricep over their wrist and drop your weight. Then elbow them in the face.
All techniques works its depends how train is your opponents. Martial art is about speed, strength, and accuracy. Train yourself and practice til your muscle memory become a reflex. At a true encounter you don't have time to think how to break free you do what it takes.
1:35 Uchi Uke
Traditional Karate is all about the “why”, not just the “how”….
everything that has been proven to work in mma does work, however not everything that can work has been shown in mma
keep experimenting, keep investigating
Lyoto Machida proved the effectiveness of Karate when done right.
You fail or execute it properly. You are supposed to hit the bone area of the forearm where the nerves are. It is a very common and effective way to get the fist to open up. Not saying it's the best method but it does work.
The elbows are not very powerful. It would work if the neighbor added power
the one problem: you mention at the end this can work if you don't want to grapple. If someone knows how to grapple, this demonstration doesn't really apply. the guy grabbing you is standing still, holding your shirt--when have you ever seen a grappler motionless while grappling? committing to that block means swinging your body to the side--very easy to predict, feint a grab, when you go for the very exaggerated block they can then go for a double or just get a body lock. Hard to explain in text, but ask any wrestler to demonstrate what I mean regarding that block
I guess the best way to explain it is: grapplers use feints just like boxers. and for wrestling, this block is like an extremely telegraphed punch. If they for some reason grab you like that, and it miraculously works once and breaks their grip, I guarantee you any grappler will grab again just to bait that block, predict it beautifully, and easily get a takedown off of it
A really good person to look up is Jessy Enkamp …the karate nerd..
When he's got your shirt what's to stop you banging his ribs 3 times. Then when he lowers his guard to protect ribs, bang lay the dome on that fool. Whilst he's disoriented, bang belt those ribs 3 more times. Now unless they're a proffessional fighter those ribs are cooked and your attacker is on the floor.
A lot people need to understand karate has takedowns and throws
I think, whatever works, you still got to have a follow-up. A transition. At least add a 100 meter sprint.😉
Yep
Good luck Glass Bowl
What's a Glass Bowl?
For whoever doesn't know.
Bokator is Cambodian ancient martial art
These non bullshido moves are your all in your basic Kempo Block Set that you start learning as a white belt.
Instead of starting the head why not try to grab and remove the hand off the person or this is a thought break the thumb it's hard to grab with the other fingers without a thumb break the thumb or bend back and break the wrist that's a thought. Who agrees on me?
12 gauge shotgun watches video while eating popcorn
Why wouldn't you use a wedge hand to the side of the neck and hit the artery then he goes down like a deer. And it ends the fight and you walk away. And he gets to walk away well later. Who agrees with me?
I personally do doubt the effectiveness of these moves you test. But i’m pretty positive that going into this with both of you anticipating it will fail, is getting in the way of you testing it fairly. Your opponent should not know what it trick your going to do, and you should show more intent from what I see.
It doesn't work because you are expecting the move. With some element of surprise, I believe it will work.
Yeah, "it's all wrestling" hahahahaha
And we’re all Keynesian 😇😅😂😂
Actually the body movement. Not the hand movement. That is the effective move.
so easy to break that elbow with two forearms
My adult neighbors doing child's horse playing 😅😂😊
Feel free to join our session next time!
Hmmm...
12-6 elbows are illegal! 💀
LOL. Yes. The technique requires a lot more force than she was laying down. Your parry would work much better. In a self-defense scenario, I'm kind of lazy and just stick to the good old bicep or tricep pinch... it hurts enough to get the assailant to loose grip, and that is about all you need... don't want to be under investigation for excessive force either...
😇
Could you show us the bicep or tricep pinch?
If you do the bullshido version harder it will remove your own t-shirt.
Lol
The techniques didn’t work because neither of you were trying to hurt each other. You were both larping. Of course it won’t work. If someone slammed their elbow at full force and full speed into the opponent’s lower bicep where it connects at the joints you guys would not continue to hold on to the shirt without some kind of pain.
The problem with the way you are testing the Karate blocks is that the attacker is in a stagnant position, not being aggressive, and moving with forward pressure. I really don't think any of the techniques you have shown are effective. It's not a very realistic testing situation.
You are forgetting the pressure point, raking, body mechanics (kinesiology,) of a what "appears" to be a simple movement, with your eyes!!!
The a true Martial Art is Both Hard & Soft!☯️
Research Tai-chi or Qigong.
Google internal Martial Arts!!
It will change your LIFE. 💯
Try that lateral elbow bs on a boxer and see how quickly you eat a counter hook 😂
But the original lady was using (admittedly quite little) taijutsu. You guys use almost none at all. Where's your hips and your footwork? Her technique works because she drops her hips and steps back slightly as she's doing the elbow drop, which has the effect of pulling the attacker / uke forwards and off balance which it why it works for her but not you (who were failing to do either). Sorry chaps, work on your taijutsu a bit first.
His left will put u to sleep
While martial arts are pretty to watch, they are extremely ineffective against an active attacker. Don't delude yourselves.