Balerion Did Not Die of Old Age + Can Older Dragons Still Be Alive?
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 26 ก.ย. 2024
- In this video I explore the topic of the life and death of Balerion the Black Dread in an effort to establish the actual cause of his death as well as try figure out what that tells us about other dragons who have been rumored to still be around. Could Cannibal be on Skagos? Could Sheepstealer still be alive? How long can a dragon actually live in game of thrones and a song of ice and fire? We will try get at least a little closer to understanding the answers to these very good questions.
- บันเทิง
Balerion rotting from the inside out with parasites would be symbolically relevant to the story since he represents Targaryen power and authority and begins to break down as they begin to lose their grip on power.
it also parallels viserys, old and great but rotting away inside
@@jackhamey659great is a really strong word to describe Viserys he a mediocre king at best nothing wrong with that though
@@Sisyphus-rq5ew yeah i did want to reword my original comment, i think its more that as a king, lots is done to make him look big and strong, even though he is secretly withering away
@@jackhamey659 oh that actually makes sense I get what your saying
@@Sisyphus-rq5ew respect
It’s okay Balerion we all get super magma tapeworms with human faces sometimes.
This is why worm prevention meds are so important. Not only can they damage important organs like your heart and intestines but the next time you take a nice cool dip in a pool or lake they might erupt out of you alien style.
Yeah I hate when that happens 🪱🪱
@@emmagrrrace246 your response has caused me to have some weird mental images since sometimes tapeworms will peek out of their hosts butts. Now I just keep picturing a worm with a human face sticking its head out of a dragon butt and either sticking its tongue out or blowing raspberries as bystanders look on both horrified and insulted.
It's so true. I just got back from visiting family in Mexico, and you wouldn't believe the stuff that's been coming out of me... what does my sister even put in her cooking?!?
Ah, so you've also attempted the gas station sushi challenge?
Parasites having way worse symptoms in non target species is actually pretty common. For example raccoon roundworm has basically no symptoms in raccoons and causes blindness in humans.
Maybe Viserys wasting was a result of his bond with the parasite ridden and dying Balerion and their mind meld
I do agree there could be some weird effects on Viserys from the bond as well that may have been overlooked
@michaeltalksaboutstuff loving all your theories btw.
It was an inside job
Now that's a good one
@@michaeltalksaboutstuff I think their bond with the dragons is interesting and clearly deeper than rider and mount, we see in the show and books that they seem to instinctively react based on their rider's feelings in ways that hint to some mental connection at the very least. We also know they're sentient and, if the show is anything to go by, can understand concepts even if it's to a low degree, like drogon burning the iron throne instead of doing anything to jon.
Regarding reptiles and longevity, one reason reptiles can live a long time is lower core body temperature and a correspondingly slower metabolism. This can work really well with your theory. If Belarion was infested with a fireworm parasite, it could have increased his internal body temperature. That would have increased his metabolism and so shortened his lifespan. I mean, generally just being ill with a parasite can shorten a lifespan so it might not mean much, but I thought it was interesting.
Oooh! It would also explain how he was excellent at fighting before. It's like he's a mama bear in spring now, because he's literally in overdrive all the time but feels weak.
So do you think Cannibal being in a place like Skagos, which is at the same latitude as the Wall, meaning its very cold, that could help with him living longer?
@@owenbridgers That's basically what kept Maester Aemon going in my opinion. As soon as he left the wall he died. The Targs & Dragons seem to mimic each other so I'd be very surprised if a cold climate didn't extend a Dragons lifespan.
Cold preserves, Fire consumes.
I think this would be reading too much into it...
@@Bleilock1 yeah specially since dragons should be endothermic bc of their activity
So Viserys, the last person to ride a magical parasite containing Balerion dies of a mysterious incurable disease that makes his flesh rot????
Yeahhhh I am thinking there is room for theory crafting there... It certainly could be connected
That would support something I'm running with where the parasites cause the downfall of dragons. I hope he looks into this!😁
He died of leprosy
Too bad it didn’t get Alicent
@@randomvids5883The actors, and screenwriters use the odd phrasing of “a type of leprosy”. Implying it’s not any usual disease. If it was just leprosy as we know it, I don’t see the reason for the odd wording.
I love this theory, I feel so bad for grandpa Balerion leaving Grandma Vhagar all alone. That's probably why she's so grumpy, she misses her hubby.
I’d like to think Balerion was the reason Viserys ended up with that disease. He caught it when he mounted the dragon unprotected
yeah it certainly seems like a thing that could be the case. The dragon bond is a very strong one and I wouldn't wanna mind meld with a parasite ridden dragon if given the choice.
@@michaeltalksaboutstuffdo you think that if they melded like that Viserys would've sensed something off with Balerion, though?
Aside from that? This is a fantastic theory. I love it.
@@staytuned2L337 Viserys *did* say that the dragons were dangerous in ways that the other Targaryens didn't understand. Maybe he didn't know that he and Balerion were infested, but he could sense through their bond that something was wrong, and possibly even knew that it was a source of his own illness. Just a theory, but he did say it.
@@staytuned2L337 He has literally nothing to compare it too. It’s not like he can dragonbond with another ancient dragon without parasites to test.
@@fletcherw32 I don't particularly think that matters? He wouldn't need to know the exact species or look of them to know something was all up in his dragon.
If for example we see that when Daemon gets shot his dragon cries out in pain, or when Dany's wails in time with her climax we can clearly see there's a physical bond.
I imagine if parasites were rummaging around in Viserys' dragon's guttyworks he'd at least be able to recognize something is wrong.
The Maesters hint at killing the dragons, but they don't say how. It's entirely possible that they started with poisoning Balerion, and then moved on to smaller and less-famous dragons after that. It's also entirely possible that Maesters learned about dragon-killing parasites from the death of Balerion, and used those parasites to weaken and kill other remaining dragons after that. Whether it be from war wounds, that 9-foot gash (and subsequent weakness and infections), poison or parasites, it's pretty likely that Balerion didn't die of "old age", and a much older dragon is possible. But, considering they continue to grow over time, it gets much harder to hide older dragons.
this is genius and part of my new head canon.
Great theory
Balerion was not contaminated by any parasites
So it turns out that Balerion was a whole can of worms in his later life.
No
Love the theory that Balerion was infected as well. It makes a lot of sense. First time I have heard someone talk about it.
Being an animal person and educated, I’ve always wondered about animals ON the dragons themselves that would be present. Ticks, lice, etc. Nearly all wildlife is effected in some way by parasites and other animals. The closest the show has come to showing this was the seagulls atop Veghar while she was sleeping. Those birds would be cleaning and picking off bugs and other nasties off the dragon’s skin.
Parasites are generally only present in their native enviroment, if you take a species a move it somewhere else, the parasites on the species generally dont know how to deal with it, and new parasites generally dont affect them, just because of the fact they didnt evolve with them
The absence of parasites on the dragons would be a hint that the were created instead of domesticated. A magically birthed enormous lizard probably wouldn't come with lice that love heat...
@@Bbonno unless it was magically created from a creature that has heat loving licw
@@filipbitala2624 that would have fun implications too. Imagine if the spell that made a lizard enormous and fire-breathing also targeted it's lice and made them enormous and fire-breathing 😜
@@Bbonno i mean, there already are fire wyrms, who are enormous and fire breathing, the only difference is that dragons have wings and listen to humans
Aerea Targeryan, the only part of all of ASOIAF/westerosi lore that actually terrified me. Like her death is unspeakable horrifying.
After hearing about it for the first time recently, i really wish GRRM actually fleshed out the deeper Lore of his World more.
Sure it's cool to have mysteries and all, and not everything needs to be explained, but it would hurt no one to have more information about the Doom of Valyria, what more or less caused it, how exactly it happened and what exactly happened, what's left now that can cause such a wound on such a powerful dragon and infect a human with the absolute most awful things known inside and outside of Westeros ? I could read an entire book about it !
What was it tho op
@@cosmictreason2242
Imagine dying like how those two scientists died from the worms in Prometheus meets Ryan Reynolds’ character death in Life x 100 with a supernatural fever and lava.
And maybe a parasyted dragon, living in close proximity with others, spreaded the infection all over, causing their atrophy and eventual extintion over the years
I was also lead here. Someone else pointed out that the last person to ride Ballerion died of a strange parasite...🤔🤔
What if the life force of a dragon needs to be magically maintained? Just like the Weirwoods need to “drink” blood to maintain their magic as you have previously speculated, perhaps dragons need the same, or at least something similar to maintain themselves. So a healthy dragon with a partner goes out and fights battles and kills people, releasing their life essence and letting the dragon absorb it. But a dragon who is weak or stuck in a pit does not receive that energy, gets weaker and weaker, and eventually dies. If Belarion did have a parasite, this would have made to problem worse, so he last 40 years, but basic as an invalid.
It seems to me as well that Dany’s dragons grew in burst after staying the same size for a period of time. It might be interesting to go back and see if there are indications in the story that her dragons gained size after she was involved in battles where people were killed.
The last dragons to die in kings landing were small. Could it be that a blood sacrifice is not just needed to start a dragon’s life, but ongoing sacrifices are also needed to let it grow and thrive. So the more peaceful Westeros became, the fewer dragons could exist?
It is certainly possible there will be something like that. Would be tough on Dany to realize her kids require the blood of innocents on a constant basis...
Drogon is biggest of Dany's three and also the only one that (so far) has been known to hunt humans for supper.
depedns on whethershe percieves her foes as innocent @@michaeltalksaboutstuff
Eventually you run out of foes if you aren't making a lot of new enemies
That is interesting, but it doesn't match Silverwing and Vermithor though 🤔
They are the dragongs of King Jahaerys and Queen Alysanne. Both dragons are almost exactly the same age, but Vermithor shows signs of old age like loose skin, some missing scales. He is also much bigger than Silverwing. Silverwing looks still young and shows no sign of old age, but is also smaller. Both spend their life together and after their riders deaths they lived as "half wild" dragons on dragonmount in the caves there. ( Also interesting they are the only dragon we know of who are a couple. ) So they were not chained in a dragonpit during that time.
Both are friendly to humans, but Silverwing is described as one of the friendliest dragon. Spoiler for the series House of the Dragon.
She didn't even kill any of the dragonseeds or people who tried to claim her like the other dragons.
What I thought is, that there might have been different breeds of dragons in Valyria and that some f.e. live longer or are bigger, smaller ect. Like different dog breeds. 😅
Regardless of how he died it's a terrifying prospect to consider a beast that could do that to him. "There's always a bigger fish"
Maybe he just injured himself on a sharp rock somewhere in valyrian mountains? Anticlimactic, I know. We all want some dragon-killing monsters in Valyria :)
The thing with the Targaryens in Westeros is they were nothing more than big fish in a small pond. Back in Valyria they were dragon riders but they were barely a blimp on the radar. And when they left Valyria for Dragonstone, they were even mocked as spineless cowards by the other Valyrian dragonriders. So it's safe to assume that Old Valyria had dragons that would have snacked on Balerion for breakfast.
I knew we could count on you, Michael the Reptile Aging Process Expert, to explain this stuff that goes over all our heads.
Reptile Aging Process Expert makes for a horrible acronym, however.
@@pankratos5017 True. Nevertheless, it's ASOIAF, so seems fitting...
Even if Sheepstealer and Cannibal are a bit too old to still be alive, either one of them could have laid eggs that hatched into new wild dragons. Well, Cannibal may have eaten its young, but Sheepie's may have survived.
Also:
IF dragons keep growing until they become too big to sustain their own mass and die
and
IF dragons grow faster when they feed on humans
then
Sheepstealer, who prefers to eat non-humans, might indeed be growing very slowly, and could therefore live a lot longer than Targaryen war dragons.
I think the implication is you need vallryians to hatch dragons. Otherwise the eggs are just pretty rocks. It may well be that Lysenni individuals are valryian enough but I think it's more complex that just typical animal breeding patterns.
@@TheInsatiableDrBoom Or perhaps you need adult dragons. Nobody but Valyrians had those either. Once the adults died off, no new eggs were hatched, until Dany did her highly specific magic ritual.
I mean, kinda like dinosaurs. To bring back dinosaurs now you'd need very advanced genetic manipulation tech and knowledge and super rare DNA samples. But back in the day all you needed was a mama dinosaur.
Silverwing also survived the dance.
Sheepstealer is alive
This is a great theory. My one holdout is that if ballroom was fully infected with the fireworms, then they should have been discovered by either the dragon pit guards or the maesters. The way Martin described the worms bursting forth and dying from the girl was very spectacular. If they were inside balerion, wouldn’t it have been obvious? They cut off his head and mounted it within viserys lifetime, so they would have either done a necropsy or at the very least butchered it and cleaned it up. If the host died, wouldn’t the fireworms have started to go crazy when the temperature started to drop? Or maybe when he died he had already fought off the infection but at the cost of his vitality. Or maybe they died and liquified so fast within his body no one noticed.
this is genuinely the best song of ice and fire theory channel out there!
Sounds plausible. But a side note-parasites killing their host during their first stage of life (e.g., parasitoid wasps) is pretty common.
Very good point. The sound of the way they liked the heat implies to me these ones were designed to live inside a dragon for awhile but the examples of parasites that don't intend to stay inside are also a thing.
I completely passed off the winged serpent that Summer saw as smoke (even after reading the books 6 times), but yes! What if it was Sheep Stealer?!?!?! A 4th dragon possibly in play in the GOT story?!?!? Maybe he will fall to the Night King OR MAYBE he will become the third dragon for Danaerys if Viserion is taken by the Night King. OR EVEN MAYBE Jon Snow will claim Sheep Stealer and confront Danaerys and her dragons?!?! Wow, I am so excited with this revelation!!!
You may like my old nan video haha I talk about it more in there
Silverwing survived the dance as well. It was noted about her, that despite being the same age as Vermithor she still looked like a young dragon and showed no signs of old age.
It has nothing at all to do with dragons. It's a wolf's perception of the red comet through the smoke of winterfell being sacked, before the fires of the sack blot out even the comet's light (which is supposed to be brighter than the moon) - by A Storm of Swords, the comet is passed, meaning it was probably low on the horizon and possibly disappeared that nigth.
I think if a dragon had showed up and started burning stuff, Theon, or the Boltons, or even Luwin would have mentioned it.
Silverwing is unaccounted for. Plus she is described as being lighter built an not agressive. She could have survived.
Unless she died of grief/ lost will to live after losing Vermithor as they were as close as Jahaerys and Alysanne were to eachother...
Another thing to note. WHY would George give us this seemingly inconsequential story of Balerion flying to Valeria and A girl from parasites that made her blood boil?
To me it seems there are two schools of thought.
Either Valyria will play a larger role in the future and referencing a giant monster that could hurt Balerian could be a way to forshadow it
Or
The wounding of the black dread is whats important here. I think Aereas is then meant to distract us from the actual clue in this story: Which is that Balerion also has a wound thats smoking blood. Just like Aerea!
If its nr2 then it does call into question the age of dragons overall! And it opens up the possibillity for other dragons surpassing beyond 300 AC
Dragon blood itself smokes. So any wound on a dragon that bleeds would be a smoking wound. We see this in the shows and its described in the books. The parasites causing Aerea to burn and boil would likely find a dragon to be quite cozy inside.
He died of cringe after Viserys claimed him
😂
Viserys is the goat. Everyone missed him when he was gone and recognized how underappreciated he was while he was alive.
love to see random viserys slander lmfao
best comment
GRRM actually said he likes the show character more than his own, which is a rare compliment as far as his opinions on adaptations go. FaB Viserys is just a drunk feckless dipsh' if I recall correctly
Dragons seem to grow like cold blooded animals, reptiles and fish: they don't have a maximum size, they just keep growing slowly all their life as long as they have the conditions to sustain growth: food, space, ect.
Balerion never fought in Dorne, any other fighting he did there was nothing capable of harming him. The wound from Valyria is the only one we know for sure happened. I don't think comparing him to a front line vet is accurate, more of an artillery piece than anything else really. That being said, the wound from Valyria was described as grievous, so it could theoretically have shortened his life, it may also have carried disease unique to dragons or even had magical effects. It happened in Valyria and the only thing we know about that place is not to go there.
Dragon scratch disease
Here's a thought: could the parasites have spread? Vhagar was younger than Balerion, but much like Balerion himself she was a dying dragon, withered and weakening. That not a single Targaryen dragon survived to see 150 AC, less than 100 years after Balerion would have been infected, implies that something kill them all. And parasites spreading through the close quarters of the Dragonpit would certainly explain this disaster. It may also explain why dragons didn't grow as large - hard to grow when you're constantly healing internally from parasites eating you alive.
re:Worms
I like it, I've suggested something similar before. It makes a lot of sense. On the flip side, I've also wondered if he caught something else. Greyscale. My process for that is that the worms appeared to be burning Aerea, so they didn't need to tap heat and should have added to a dragon's. Greyscale on the other hand would slowly cripple him making him seem lazy and might diminish his capacity to generate heat.
The one major parallel in Weirwood and Dragon lore is that they are assumed to grow forever. It would be interesting to see a dragon can suffer the same fate as a Weirwood, turning to stone. I think it buys into the idea of waking dragon from stone, even if it's not literally this one. We don't see evidence that greyscale can affect a dragon, so totally understand reservations.
re:Winterfell
Your suggestion of Sheepstealer makes the most sense and makes the best argument. However, there are a couple things to consider. The Broken Tower was "struck" a few years after Jace visited. No one uses it and it's full of rats. Potentially a dragon could have been living in that tower eating rats and keeping a low profile. When it was broken fits the timeline for an egg left behind during the Dance. Less likely than your suggestion, but not impossible.
I'll add that in considering both worm and greyscale conditions, I put forth these ideas don't have to be mutually exclusive.
Greyscale might function as part of the way wurms "hunt". They might be attracted to those affected by Greyscale. Aerea may have gotten greyscale and the worms were fighting/eating it. Same for the dragon. Greyscale could be a disease spread by Valyrians after being exposed to fire worms. Outside their range the disease is removed from the food cycle that typically keeps it in check.
@BeteBlanc He could've easily had both yeah. There's other diseases in that area too he could've caught
Maybe this was the beginning of the end for all the dragons in Westeros.
There was a decline in the size and strength after Vaghar and Caraxes who were already fully mature and not often at the pit. 😮
I mean Syrax had a clutch on Dragonstone everytime Rhaenyra was pregnant and how many of them became big tough mature adults?
Do you think that all the dragons became affected by this parasite, leading to them being infertile? Never thought of it before, but the last dragon hatched was worm like.
Well according to the Wiki, 'Skagos' means 'stone' in the old tongue. So either this is a massive misdirect from George, or...the prophecy about "waking dragons from stone" could mean a dragon will come from Skagos. I doubt Cannibal would've mated given his taste for dragon flesh, so maybe Sheepstealer visited Skagos and laid a clutch of eggs waiting to be hatched (it's only a stone's throw from Winterfell). Or maybe Sheepstealer just took up residence on Skagos and is waiting to re-emerge, or 'wake', to the right person. Regardless if that happens or not this was a great video. Nice job!
I love your videos! I can't believe how fast you are cranking them out. Thanks for your content. Cheers!
Dude is on fire
Huge fan, bro. Thanks for all your work, always hyped to see you post new
This is a great video, I've always felt that what happened to Balerion in Valyria contributed to his death. There's also one aspect that could have factored in as well which might seem far fetched but; what if he was depressed as well? He remembered Valyria as it was and because the Targaryens fled BEFORE the doom he wouldn't have known about it. Balerion flew home to find it was a hellscape now, and not one even he could comfortably live in. They were there for a while too so he clearly tried to live there again, but both he and his rider couldn't handle it so he flew back to Westeros. Depression has a real effect on your physical health, that combined with an injury and the loss of another rider, and being forced into the dragon pit on his return. I think Balerion just kind of gave up.
That entire "plot line" is the craziest part of F&B, imo.
I wonder, how did the Doom not cause planet-wide problems? Other lands seem to be unaffected, but with that level of volcanic cataclysm, it should have affected everything. We're probably talking end-Permian levels of shit going down.
because magic, that's how the fat man doesn't need to really explain it
Nah. Krakatoa resulted in a year of extended frost but that was it afaik
ah yes, the "read one article, become an expert" method
One random thought that came to mind while listening to this video but not particularly related to it:
What if when Fire Dragons get old enough they turn into Ice Dragons? We are told that Ice dragons are far larger than Fire Dragons. We are also told that Fire Consumes but Ice Preserves, so maybe for a dragon to live many thousands of years and get truly gargantuan it must change from Fire to Ice.
I fw that
You're a description of balerion being an old school linebacker / war veteran made me LOL
I like to think that there were bigger and “better” dragons in old Valeryia and Balarion was just a basic dragon compared to the the other dragons but they all just just died in the doom.
I think they would have noticed if he had the worms. I think he was likely immune to them tbh.
Dude,you are slowly becoming my favorite channel. Really dig your theories
Yeah, can believe a serious injury and/or a serious bacterial, viral, and/or parasitic infection taking a significant chunk out of a dragon’s lifespan
always wondered if the war actions fueled the dragons and Balerion simply lacked blood magic later. Maybe he needed the most to be sustained because of his giant size.
Maybe it was because almost all the older dragons died and the older targaryens died too especially those with more magic in their blood.
Dragons(at least Valirians) can have a magic that sustain each other but it may need adult dragons alive and people bonded with them to reinforce it especially those with hight "dragon blood" (Dragon lord blood not just any valiryan).
Because Silverwing never bonded again. Sheepstealer may have bonded with a non targaryen at all. Moring hatched and bonded with Baela, but she had more Velaryon than Targaryen blood.
Every generation that not married sister to brother married a velaryon or some relative to who married outside family. Like Viserys married to Aema(who her mother was married to an Arryn) or when he married Alicent.
Daemon married Leana who had dragon lord blood, but was also a child of a velaryon.
I guess that would be one of the reasons why dragon lords married brother to sister uncle to niece or cousin to cousin.
Daenerys lost o lot of dragon lord blood by her generation however that meteor truly helped her hatch her dragon and it maked her blood full of dragon magic again but she soon will met the same problem because she have 0 brother who share this magic with her. All she have are people who may have a little bit of that old magic in their blood(Targaryen dragon lord blood) and the worse is she can't have children.
So if their life are truly attached to their dragon lord blood and bond, Daenerys dragons will son die after her.
The actual case to be made is pointing on a map and saying: I think this is where cannibal could have been for 200 years. A dragon will still require a lot of food and will be sighted no matter how sparsely populated the place is. This is why Skagos might be a good choice as the Skagosi are isolated and viewed as strange and wild.
Also getting a dragon parasite together with a hefty wound? Seems like another infested dragon to me there. Would make more sense tho if Balerion would have tried to attack other dragons later on.
You know... animals in caged environments tend to spread parasites to the other animals really quickly. Perhaps this is actually why the Targaryen dragons all became stunted? Because of the parasites? So the dragon pit did cause the dragons to stunt, but because they all got sick?
I like the theory that dragons were created by crossing fire worms with wyverns, and then also addition blood and soul magic to soul bind them to families. So maybe what they found a full grown fire wyrm that was released from the earth during the doom.
I have always been suspect about Balerion's wound and how it played into his death, but i didn't link it to Viserys' mystery illness until now. It clearly wasn't the same - no firewyrms with human faces like Aerea had - but some toxin from Balerion's infestation? Something passed from the bloodmagic bond of dragon and rider? That makes sense.
What I find interesting is that when people discuss the possibility of these dragons still being alive is that they're dismissive of it due to lack of records. But, someone like the Cannibal could've easily relocated? Especially since after the Dance there were almost no dragons left. Sure, if he predates the arrival of Targaryens to Westeros then he likely wasn't a cannibal originally but having developed a taste for dragons he would try seeking out more of them. Relocating to Essos is my first thought and we get very little info from Essos other than speculations like dragons still living in Valyria or beyond Asshai. Besides, there had to be other dragona that survived the Doom. If there are wild dragons in Westeros, then surely there were plenty on the continent they're native to. Additionally, there is another humongous and unmapped continent south of Essos / South-East of Westeros called Sothoryos that Jaenera tried to fly over and couldn't find the edge of even after three years of exploring. This place would provide plenty of food and a potential hiding place for other dragons. If I recall correctly it's a lush climate although dangerous with all the diseases that plague it. The majority of which might not affect dragons though as there are other creatures living there that clearly thrive there. Such animals would provide a great source of food as there are giant apes, snakes and even wyverns. The latter two would fit Cannibal's diet.
Alternatively the legendary Ice Dragons, if they truly exist, could be a food source if they're not made of living ice as some claim. Too much speculation in this case so I won't go into details other than "yes, we are told they're bigger than Valyrian dragons. However, Cannibal could hunt the younger smaller ones or their eggs"
I don’t think there was anything stated about anything coming out of Balerion when he died. But that could have easily been covered up by the maesters.
Ive been watching a lot of your videos in the last week. Im uber excited for this video because Aereas and Balerions story is one of my favorite mysteries.
This and Old Nan being a child of the forest, just pure gold! New subscriber 😍
What if that caused the demise of all the dragons? If he was in close quarters in the dragon pit they could have spread
This is such an interesting channel. I'm new to it but it's very thought-provoking.
GRRM has legit stated that Balerion died of old age, but besides that, he was noted to have grown old and sluggish.
When Valeryon claimed Balerion, the Dragon had difficulties taking flight, and he didn’t believe Balerion was able to fly to Dragonstone from King’s Landing.
This was due to Balerion’s age and size, not because he had worm parasites inside him. 👍
I AGREE- Michael please take a look at the tapestry in HotD. Arent those orange things coming out of the dragon's head fire worms? You see them during the very beginning, I cant be the only one!!
What do you think happened to the parasites after Balerion died? Would they look for a new host? Or could they have finished their metamorphosis and been birthed into a new entity?
I was fascinated by your video on fireworm parasites, but what got me was that they had FACES😮!!!
What if…
this is how Children of the Forest are “born”.
We know there used to be dragons in Westeros pre-Targaryen.
Dragon glass at the base of Hightower, etc.
All we know about the children is that they have difficulty reproducing, which is why there aren't many of them. Didn't they also hang out in the bowels of Valyeria with the enslaved people?
A forty-year incubation sounds about right for a parasite that has an extra-long life.
Amazing. Thank you for solving got and bringing this man some peace.
I can’t believe no else has thought of this before. It seems so obvious now that you brought it up. I’m totally sold on the Balerion died from Fireworms theory. Good job 👍
Edited to add that it would make sense that there was one dragon, maybe. Sheepstealer, floating around out there since dragons seemed to be linked to fire magic. It gets stronger after Dany hatches hers, but it never went away completely, so it would make sense for there to still be a dragon out there. I also like the idea of an extra dragon since I think Euron will end up with one by using Dragonbinder, and I don’t want him to steal one of the other ones lol. I think they’ll go to Dany (Drogon), Jon (Rheagal), and Aegon (Viseryion)
I wonder if those freaky worm things primarily parasitize firewyrms.
By my thinking, if they were primarily a dragon parasite, the dragonlord families would probably have some knowledge of it. Eventually an infected dragon would have been wounded in a way that could show evidence of the parasites (Balerion's wound smoking, for example).
But if they're primarily a firewyrm parasite, they could go relatively unnoticed unless the dragonlords made a habit of trying to fight the firewyrms *and* their dragons were wounded by an infected one in the process.
The Doom is described in very volcanic terms, which implies the surface environment was suddenly very favorable for firewyrms. Could be that Balerion got into a fight with one and was infected.
You are blowing my mind with these videos. I love how you are tieing everything together. ❤
I love the worms theory! I hadn't thought about that before, but it seems obvious once you consider it. As you lay out, if humans can have worms for a long time (years) while slowly getting sicker & dying from loss of nutrients, it's definitely a logical inspiration for how Balerion died (given that he died only 40 years later).
I do think another factor for the other dragons not living longer (besides war/ the Dance) is being kept in the Dragon Pit. We know that they grow bigger when free range & grow slower when locked up. (Viserion and Rhaegal grow slower once they're in Mereen and locked up.) So I think all of the Targ dragons, but also Balerion, did not grow & have as long of a life because they were kept in the Dragon Pit. (Who knows, maybe Balerion could have gotten rid of his parasite if he had remained free? Maybe not, but it probably didn't helped things.)
Thanks for all the imagination fodder! I have been hoping to give something back. I have an hypothesis! Woot!
Aerea and (accepting this theory) Ballerion return with parasites at a time when we have already been guided to believe another cause was at hand leading to the diminishing of dragon size. It could have been the parasites, not the dragon pits, that were the "final nail in the dragon coffin". Dany's dragons, and the two you hypothesized about here, would not have had contact with Balerion or other dragons that had a contact chain to him, since his return from Valleria.
What do you think? I respect science, so I got no ego in it. Something disproved is knowledge, too.
The size/longevity relationship you mention early on is valid ...look at dogs. The average lifespan of a great dane tends to be lower than that if a Chihuahua. Even without the parasitic worms, the injuries Balerion sustained in Valyria could've shortened his life.
I just thought of something and wanted to share that is kind of random. Ghost was driven away from the other pups like skin changes are driven away from civil society (Not my idea). What if not all animals are not capable of handling a skin changer human. Like Ghost himself is an animal skin changer. Just thought that was kind of interesting.
Something I always thought about, was the actual bond between rider and dragon -how it's more than just a generic partnership, but they actually form a close bond with one another.
For someone like Balerion, who has bonded with many riders, seen them fall in battle or of age, not just physically but also mentally that strain on his soul could have played a significant factor in his will to continue. It's almost as if with Viserys it was a case of "this is enough, I am out", and he parted way with his will to keep going the way he had for 2 centuries of physical and mental hardship.
I didid not even consider the possibility of him dying of the weird fire parasites till i read the title of the video but now I think about it makes so much sense
Hey y'all, I have an intresting theory to share. It's said in the GOT universe that dragons are extinct but I believe there must be a high chance that there are wild dragons in places that are still undiscovered. If you look at the map of the GOT universe there's the known world and the undiscovered and unknown world as well. I just think that, overall, the dragons that lived on the Valyrian peninsula were not the only dragons in existence. Please share y'all thoughts with me on this matter.
What sort of function might these dragon parasites play in our stories future?
I have always wondered this about Aerea and her story. I kinda now think they might serve to make us seriously have to doubt the "Balerion died of old age" claims in case GRRM wants to establish one of these older still living dragons. Other than that I don't see how they come back as I doubt we have much time to have a dragon catch them in our main story.
@@michaeltalksaboutstuff thanks for the great response- and also for a previous questions response; I didn’t say so then, but I appreciated it.
They may explain Monster babies. Maybe they come from certain fire wights. Maybe maegor produced them.
DRAGONWORM THEORY BAYBEEEEEE
I was gonna mention this one to you guys haha I remember your episode wondering about that. I would officially like to submit my answer as they were there to show Balerion had dragon parasites and call into question his death by "Old Age". With Aerea we got to see a horrible example of how it goes when a person catches them.
Extremely high quality video. Any video with Aerea is one I like.@@michaeltalksaboutstuff
it can also be argued that Vhagar is wrinkly at about 180, which is typically associated with old age. It would be reasonable that fire worms did Balerion dirty, but there is some evidence that towards 200 years dragons are considered old.
Typically old living things are expected to decline to a point where they are ready to pass away. This doesn't mean no dragon could live more than 200, or that Balerion wouldn't have had more life left in him under different circumstances.
Edited for typos.
This makes a lot of sense and I like the idea 💡, I think this is a fact honestly
And 2 more things, it’s very possible that Balerion had parasites in him, but wouldn’t they find them inside him after the beheaded his corps to keep the head? And if the parasites wanted to live wouldn’t they attach themselves to a smaller dragon or even dragon keeper to do so? I feel like that wouldn’t have gone unnoticed. Also if Cannibal is 400+ years old, he should have been the biggest dragon ever alive in Westeros since he was never confined anywhere so he’s been growing free the whole time
Idk if it is a valid theory, but I always though that they probably had different breeds of dragons in Valyria. Maybe fast growing big dragons that die earlier and smaller, slower growing dragons that live longer. Vermithor and Silverwing are the same age. Vermithor is already 2/3 of Vhagars size and shows signs of old age like loose skin. Silverwing is smaller than him and still looks like a young dragon.
So maybe there are different dragon breeds like dog breeds?
@@danika9411 the reason Vermithor was slightly different was because he had gone to battle and taken some wounds were as silverwing just flew around in peace until the Dance, but they were still the same size and everything since they hatched within 2 years of each other. All dragons are the same and grow until death, we know this for a fact because of the recorded dragons life’s.
@@billychops1280 Silverwing is smaller than Vermithor. And he shows signs of old age like loose skin, while she doesn't. 🤔
@@danika9411 like I said, because he’s been to battle and she hasn’t plus he’s 2-3 years older and has developed thicker skin and horns due to the wars he was in, silverwing has never been anywhere near a battlefield
@@billychops1280 I don't think aging and growing is connected to how many wars a dragon participated in. Vhagar is said to be small for her age and she has been to a lot of wars. More than Vermithor. On the other hand Vermithor was always described as big for his age.
So weird having a dragon lore where they don't live thousands of years but it's a nice change
Look man, i don't know how you expect me to subscribe when you don't think to call this vid 'dragon age: origins'
I’ve heard speculation that Cannibal was Aurion of Valyria’s dragon. Yk the guy that said he was the Emperor of Valyria after the Doom and then went there and never came back? This would make him really old but it could explain his hostility to Targaryen dragons on Dragonstone. Since they would be from different bloodlines.
I didnt know Balerion died of old age, but I did watch a video earlier talking about the valyria trip and i assumed he was infected with the parasites too. I am someone who knows alot about reptile parasites and lifespans, solid work.
Now I'm just imagining these creatures like the microorganisms around hydrothermal vents, only supersized. The idea that the volcanic regions of what was once Valeria are infested with with what are essentially highly aggressive land based deep sea organisms is mildly terrifying
I'VE BEEN SAYING THIS!! He didn't die of old age. None of them did.
This should get a lot more attention than it has right now, makes a lot of sense
In "The World of Ice and Fire", the lore book before "Fire and Blood", the Maester writing the book says there were dragon sightings in Westeros before the Doom. His theory is that dragons were wild animals before, and it was just that the Valyrians were the first to tame them.
So it's very possible the Cannibal was descended from wild dragons that were never tamed. The Targaryans set up on Dragonstone because it was suitable for their dragons; it makes sense that it was already home to wild dragons.
And even if Cannibal wasn't descended from pure wild dragons, since wild dragons like Grey Ghost and Sheepstealer escaped from the Targaryens, he or his ancestors could have escaped from Valyria before the Doom.
8:04 Veigar is too large. What do you think of Balerion then?
regarding a dragon living in the north unnoticed? 1) the north is largely sparsely inhabited. if it didnt kill people and just flew off with sheep occasionally it woudve been written off as just people stealing or predators, or even the animal wandering off 2) the north is sparsely inhabited, meaning there is more wildlife. sheepstealer may have just hunted, not needing to take domestic prey at all. 3)i live in the north of the US. if youre outside around winter its dark a lot, and its cold day or night. visibility wouldnt be great in the snow. visibility wouldnt be great in the dark. visibility wouldnt be great in forested mountains, especially not above the cloudline. also youre less likely to want to be outside looking at the total lack of visibility in the cold, unless you enjoy being a popsicle. 4)dragons can be stealthy. a (relative to other dragons) small skinny animal thats tree colored could probably just hide if people *did* come near it. it could probably just back into a bush, fold its wings, stretch out its neck, slit its eyes and hold really still, pretending its a log. gators do it all the time.
basically what im saying is, if a tree looking dragon with no taste for human flesh hunted wild sheep or boars or deer or bears and came out mostly at night was living in a cave in the mountains above the cloudline, i doubt anyone would know, nor care.
also... how would Aerea have caught said parasites?
also also... not all creatures that steal life from others try to keep their hosts alive. there are also parasitoids, whose natural lifecycle involves killing the host, such as some kinds of wasp
If Balerion had died of parasites I think they'd have been infesting his body when people tried to do something with the corpse, in fact the parasites would have gone Wild and we'd have this crazy story of Kings Landing burning down from having been overrun by people-face dragon things. Having the biggest, baddest, oldest dragon die of parasites also doesn't sound like a very "George" thing to do so instead I think Balerion did the most George thing ever and died of a broken heart. Balerion probably realized at some point that he'd taken his dragon rider somewhere he shouldn't have, he got into a huge fight with Something that he never fully healed from and Aerea ( Rhaella ) encountered something that caused her deathly pain from the inside out which given the connection between Dragon and Rider Balerion MUST have felt in his soul. And if Balerion was so deeply connected to Rhaella in her agonizing death throws, begging for release, as the shock of being plunged into an ice bath kills her what just might happen to him?
I think the shock of losing his rider in such a way to ICE of all things Balerion caused the fire in him to start to go out. It was ICE that killed FIRE.
I also don't think those were parasites infesting Rhaella but instead something much more magical and darker... Valyria was known for practicing blood and fire magic that Somehow bound these great dragons intrinsically not to people in general but to a specific bloodline that was physically marked by this magic with Violet eyes, pale skin, and platinum hair. Rhaella was 14-16 during her adventures with Balerion and that's the exact time period when she'd likely have first started getting her, well, period. her moon's blood. I suspect Rhaella adventured herself right into the darkest heart of Old Valyria where she was Taken, willingly or unwillingly, by the same form of ancient and dark magic that first CREATED the dragons and she had ALL the unused eggs fertilized magically with dragon seed. Those weren't parasites, Rhaella was becoming a Mother of Dragons, that's why they all had faces and hands not weird parasite mandibles. If she hadn't died who knows what could have happened to Westeros...
Nah, giving a character a terrible death is totaly "George".😂
@@meltemb1705 doesn't sound like you read the rest of what I wrote, parasites are too KIND for George
@@rumorcontrol7873 You wrote something about Ice killing his Fire, which is a kinder death then getting eaten alive. And a character dying of broken hearth does not sound like GRRM. Just to make clear, I do belive that Balerion just died of old age. Dragons just keep growing until they break down, so dying at 200 years at that massive size makes sense. But Parasites would also make sense, because Valyria is sayed to be roamed by giant firewyrms. Balerion probably was injured by one and the parasites are baby firewyrms. But yeah, everyone can belive that they want, because we will most likely never know what really happened in Valerya.
Even if we take Balerion's youngest canon age, he would've been 208 at his death.
If we take Cannibal's supposed birth year of 114 BC, he would've been 243 at the start of the Dance of Dragons. A full 35 years older, and considered a formidable fighter. This means that dragons could, and should get much older than Balerion
I'd say Balerion had a factor of
Dragon parasites
Big wound
Being crammed into the dragon pit
It likely was very stressful for Balerion to basically never see the son again, and the wound would've definitely taken a lot out of him.
Which would allow the parasites to overwhelm him and eventually kill him.
Still watching toward the beginning of the video but had a thought and wonder if they could live forever if fed. Perhaps their size makes them eventually be unable to get them off the ground to the point where they cannot feed themselves and with no food/blood their fires burn low and eventually out. I've read other fantasies like this with insanely bloated dragons and they basically couldn't move and had their minions constantly feed them
I do like the theory that Balerion succumbed to the same parasites that killed Aerea, but I'm not going to lie, the idea that one or more dragons from the Dance era survived all the way to the main story would seriously throw into question what the red comet was meant to symbolise. Like, it makes sense for some tectonic shift like the unextinction of dragons by Daenerys to be answered by this fantastical celestial event. But if dragons never went extinct in the first place because Sheepstealer and the Cannibal were/are still around, what did the red comet mean?
IMO theres just way too much evidence pointing towards the generally accepted notion that dragons did indeed go extinct within a generation of the Dance, and that's why it's such a big deal that they came back in the way they did.
I think this is a pretty reasonable theory. From the looks of it these parasites are maybe the way fyreworms are born. Maybe they need a suitable environment to grow to a certain size in order to live on their own. Fyreworms live in the volcanos of Valyria. That’s why they died immediately after they came out of Aerea. They could lived shortly in their human host because she as a Targaryen has dragon blood in her. (another theory why only valyriens can tame dragons) maybe these worms could survive in Balerion because his blood is way hotter (it smokes and burns humans when it comes in contact with one, we’ve seen that at the fight from Meyles and Goldfyre).
I really like the theory that Balerion "died of cringe" after Viserys claimed him. Forgot where I read it but I totally believe it at least a little
I really don’t like how people say that dragons only live 200 years solely based on what Barristan said. He is not the leading man in dragon lore. He would know more than most but fact is- world knowledge of dragons is locked behind the fact that most of them died in the doom. As such all the remaining knowledge is based on the Targaryen dragon lineage. The only dragon we have that got old and died naturally was Balerion. Who yes, happened to be 200, but this does not mean anybody can state conclusively and be trusted in this fact that dragons live 200 years.
I prefer the idea that old age for a dragon will be the age at which it can no longer eat enough to sustain… living, and further growth. We know they don’t stop growing and there’s examples of this in the real animal kingdom (lobsters).
Honestly I wouldn’t mind a short film or shot series about what balerion and Aerea did from when they left Westeros to Valyria leading up the fight between balerion and the supposed firewyrm, Aereas parasite infection and when they return to Westeros, we get to see balerion before his injury and see him actually fight something wether he kills it or retreats
They say that it was all the dragonkeepers could do to convince princess Alyssa not to claim Balerion. She obviously didn’t think Balerion was feeling any after effects from whatever happened in Valyria. And it is highly suspicious that the dragonkeepers didn’t do the same for prince Viserys. Balerion was still old and slow. I think Balerion completely healed up from whatever happened in Valyria. I think there had to be some other reason the dragonkeepers went out of their way to stop princess Alyssa from claiming Balerion when the reasons they gave her they didn’t give to prince Viserys at all. The only other person they do that to is princess Saera. Makes me wonder if princess Saera was trying to claim Balerion too.
Seems like Jaehaerys thinks that Saera bonding Balerion would be a big problem as well. If Balerion was so old and slow at the time why would Jaehaerys be concerned? To me it seems to make more sense to believe the people who live right there with Cannibal rather than some maester in Oldtown. Cannibal could be up to around 600 years old max. Why couldn’t there be an unbonded dragon that could go unnoticed in the north? The population is a lot more concentrated on dragonstone isn’t it? But Grey Ghost was able to avoid people for years at a time. Even during the sewing when people were actively looking for it. So why couldn’t a dragon do that in the north of all places?
I hate myself for never thinking of this. It feels so obvious after you have said it. I also wanna ask when the blood wyrm was born?
I think you're totally right on this and can't believe I've never seen anyone else speculate that he picked up the same parasite as Aerea! Of course he would have!
Thoughts on Silverwing? Her going wild and then just disappearing seems weird.
it's also heavily implied in the books that the valerians (including the targs) used fire magic to enhance/speed up there dragons growth so this unnatural growth (which is basically using magic steroids on them ) could very well shorten there life span as the books do say dragons die once they get to big for there own body/skeletons to handle which is a common cause of death for people/animals that use/used steroids,have growth conditions like gigantism or force themselves to be overweight from overeating where as wild species of dragons and feral/wild valerian/targ owned species that did not get the steroid boost(s) from the blood magic would grow slower but at a natural rate allowing there bodies to adapt to there increasing size much like crocodiles and alligators (which also never stop growing) do in real life so they live alot longer then there captive/domesticated counterparts.
Balerion would probably be like “What, this little scratch? You should see the the other guy.”
Yes, Balerion died of old age. RR used the anime trope where all the kids die fast and young and the cool badass grandpa gets a peaceful death.