There's no one else out there who makes such 'real-world' builds and dpr estimates. And you still keep the flavour and roleplaying and fun in the mix. Outstanding!
@@tazyjump5377 While I love d4's builds, his builds aren't as 'real-world'. He is, as he says, "beholden to the spreadsheet". His primary goal is to get the biggest numbers, not to be a well rounded character. For example, Treantmonk chose Healer for an origin feat. This is an excellent choice for a druid. However, it doesn't add to damage. D4 would probably choose something like Lucky instead to get advantage on some of the attack spells. This is wonderful for seeing max damage, but not as realistic for normal play.
Lately Colby changed his way of doing math to one closer to Treants. Also i noticed he is more often making build choises that gear towards more allaround characters instead of squizing every drop of damage/heal/tank he can get. Which i think is good for him :)
Honestly been pretty happy with the Casters not being quite up there with the martials in terms of single target damage. ST damage is the bread and butter for Martials, so I am glad they have at least one role in which they aren't consistently outclassed by not having spells. It's also not like the Casters are terrible at ST damage either. Your calcs have typically been assuming half the spell slots on damage. When taking into account all the other things a Caster can do with those other slots, these numbers aren't bad at all imo. Been really enjoying this series!
But... doesn't this show a caster being up there with an assassin? I think this made the assassin look really bad - this is a full caster we're talking about, and they have all the versatility that comes with it alongside the damage
My issue as it has always been since the UA, is that a Wildshaped druid loses most of their spellcasting. If my wildshape form is going to be balanced with other gishes who still have full access to their spellcasting, I want full access to my spellcasting too.
@@agilemind6241 The Bladelock build was using all the spell slots on damage though, while the Moondruid was only using certain slots (generally the higher level slots available at the time). This means outside of combat the Moondruid _could_ have all the versatility of a full caster still, while performing similarly to the Bladelock and Assassin. The one thing stopping that is that the Moondruid is very squishy - the Bladelock build was far more tanky with various layers of defence and Temp HP gen. The Moondruid just has the small amount of Temp HP to rely on. Now, that can be a large amount of Temp HP over rounds (not within a round, though), by expending low level spell slots to refresh - so, this is where the rest of the spell slots will be used up. It probably makes them still quite fragile at lower levels though even if they use every spell slot on survival due to the scarcity of spell slots at those levels. So, as Chris mentioned, Moondruid is not looking so good at low levels, which is an ironic reversal of 2014. Now, Chris avoids the stronger builds available, so all this is not representative of the optimal cases. For example, with the new magic item crafting system Thief has ready access to magic items they choose, like say a Pistol (Vex) of True Strike. Combined with Scrolls of True Strike they can SA twice per round reliably at ranged, doing substantially more damage than Assassin. They can also make/loot/buy other magic items for versatility outside of combat. Similarly, the CWB Moondruid playing tag. Likewise, Chris will avoid the CME Vardlock, which is probably one of the most highest damage dealing and out-of-combat versatile builds available in 2024. Even if we ignore potential shenanigans, I feel Warlock is quite redundant now - to get better than mediocre damage requires using the spell slots (before cantrip damage alone was enough), which they don't have many of - and then even if they use all the spell slots for damage they still end up with substantially less damage than a damage-orientated martial like Barbarian or Fighter (so you might as well play them in that case). If the Warlock attempts to hold back spell slots for actually acting like a caster the damage drops off immensely - meanwhile, the full casters can dedicate just a portion of their spell slots to reach the same values as a Warlock blowing all of theirs, leaving spell slots for use as the versatility of a full caster. Other than as a dip for Paladins (Cha-SAD) and Bards (Cha-SAD and Valor shenanigans), Warlock just doesn't have a niche now. Even Sorc likely wont see the benefit of delaying spell casting progression for the minor amounts of damage offered by the Warlock cantrips.
I still maintain that warlock is underpowered by this metric, because it's closer to a half caster than a full caster in many ways, and in terms of its core gameplay loop, which is primarily eldritch blast.
@@limaTheNoob It shows being a melee focused caster is up there with an assassin when an assassin can (a) do its damage at range and (b) avoid taking hits in a way a bladelock or druid will have to tank.
Most other channels are just offering opinions on content I can read and form my own opinions on, and I find that boring. Your approach, on the other hand, allows me to eagerly look forward to Mondays and Fridays to find out how they ACTUALLY compare, not just opining on how they might compare. Thank you for your service. The only thing we're really lacking with these graphs in how some builds might excel at multitarget damage and battlefield control where they fall behind in single target damage.
Worth noting that many Beasts have additional effects that trigger after you successfully land a hit like Crocodiles Grapple on a Bite or Dire Wolfs causing Prone on a Bite. Many Beasts, such as the Dire Wolf, used to have these secondary effects based on a Saving Throw, but they are now automatic on a hit. The Elephant also has a chance to Prone and deal extra damage to Prone targets, but this is very situational. I'm happy to see Chris added this at the 12th level when CR 4 Beasts are available.
The Templates was such a good idea imo, all it needed was a little love by adding abilities, say four abilities and the Druid can choose two when they Wild Shape, 'I'm taking the flying template and taking the knock down ability and the disengage ability' or similar.
They seemed incapable of understand the idea of the idea is good, but the exact implementation shown isn't during the playtest. So, they would just scrap the entire idea instead of taking feedback and improving it.
Another great video, Chris! A few math notes on the Spell & Cantrip Base: At levels 11-16, you calculate the Starry Wisp damage as 14 * 11.8 / 16 = 10.3, but then go on to use 11.8 in summing them. Levels 17-20, you don't calculate the 14/16 of the Starry Wisp at all, and just use 21.1 as though you were using it every single round. Also, in the latter levels you use all your highest-level slots on concentration spells, which is fine. But at levels 15-18, you for some reason only use 2 5th level slots, a 7th level and an 8th level (and a 9th for Foresight starting at 17), instead of a 5th, a 6th, a 7th, and an 8th. It's minor but it does add a little extra damage and the inconsistency's a bit strange. Obviously Druid casters' focuses aren't on damage, though, and that conclusion doesn't change lol. It's nice to see that they pace the basic BlastLock pretty well though.
Pack tactics, trample, are just some of the abilities of the beasts WE DO KNOW that can further add to the druids damage. I suspect there will also be beasts with either 3 attacks, pack tactics, prone and restrained conditions and/or other bonus action features which can greatly impact the effectivness of a moon druid. Truth is, at this point, trying to calculate moon druids damage past level 5 is still just a wild guess. One must also consider the aoe damage druid can do via spells while also simultaneously being a competitive single target class.
Still boggled that they didn't let you use your Spell Attack from level 6 as a Moon Druid. Basically turns your stat blocks into Templates if your adding damage, using your own THP/HP and replacing attacks and saves. Could have had the best of all worlds!
I have heard of some tables house ruling that you use your own Proficiency bonus with forms as well, so that could help the lower CR forms still be usable with the to hit scaling. I also wish that in some way the attacks could scale off of WIS, but then WIS is basically the only stat you need, beyond CON for concentration, though the Moon Druid gets good boosts to those saves.
Already playing in a campaign ( we are lvl 15 in the Vecna ). Absolutely amazing, full moon druid. I am using 3rd party wild shapes, indeed. Conjure animals and font of moonlight are pretty much my go to and then I maybe do a mass cure wounds, rarely. The current wild shapes are an absolute NO
On a tangent, what do you think of Vecna? My players are interested in doing a high level campaign when I wrap up my current Rime of the Frostmaiden campaign and that seems to be the next play…
@@CaideJordan The campaign can feel like the players are always on the run, and if your players like making connections with NPCs, there isn't a lot of that in the Vecna campaign. You either homebrew some mini-stories in each "arc" ( you level up at the end of each plane / chapter ) or you just accept that it's kind of a dungeon crawl, but the "dungeon" is over multiple planes of existence ( sort of an abstraction ).
@@valentinrafael9201 That’s great insight. Are you cool with this or do you prefer a different kind of game? And I’ve never run games at this level…is it a slog to play or is it still fun?
@@CaideJordan I played my first ever session yesterday. And oh boy you can really notice it when the other player has also never played or watched campaigns and the DM is rather new to DMing. Of course we are still only 1st lvl so there's enough time for the DM as well as any other later on joining players to catch up on how this work. I'm playing an artificer and I'm planning to 1 lvl dip order cleric with the rest in battle smith, as a sort of nerfed version of Treantmonks God Wizard. The DM is rather oberly generous, because he let's me play as a winged tiefling with a ''bat curse gotten from a vampire/spawn or something alike'' so now I get fog cloud as a free spell and echolocation (functions like blindsight), now he did ask me to do something for him and keep it quiet to the rest of the group which is fine by me. As for the other player since he is playing a human ranger named Hank I think there's plenty of time to ''mold him'' into an effective player and PC teammate. But to that effect would you happen to know a good source that explains the rules that I could point the new players to? I would much appreciate it.
@@CaideJordan They have a variety of monsters, but tbh, you can just add your own. In terms of liking it, I am pretty flexible with the campaigns. For me it's more the people I play with rather than the campaign setting itself or its playstyle. The monsters from 10 to 14 feel pretty easy to deal with for the level, probably regardless of class / subclass/
Good morning Chris! Excited for this one, my play group is shifting to 2024 when we start our next campaign and I've been looking at making a Druid for it! Thank you as always for the company while I'm at work and for all the work you put into giving us so many videos! Much love 💜 until the next one!
Seeing the subscriber count be SO CLOSE to 100k is just BRUTAL! You’re so close, Chris! Your work in the last several months has been phenomenal, absolutely unparalleled by anyone in the community. I hope you still feel proud of the work you’ve done, even if the sub count is just under that milestone. I’ve adored your content for years and I love being part of your community here!
My first 2024 character is a Druid 4/Monk 2. First I cast Enlarge, then wild shape into a lion, I also have the Wraps of Unarmed Prowess +1 that my DM allows in Wildshape since it's changing size but not really shape. The following turns I Multiattack rend then flurry of blows. If everything hit, I'm rolling 2d8, 2d6, 2d4 + 15 damage. I'm not sure how this build will scale or what levels and feats to continue with, but I'm having a blast with it right now! @Treantmonk's Temple
I think starting fighter with lizardfolk or shifter longtooth can also be good. Gives you fighting style, str and con save, and 1 more level second wind when you later use action to cast damage spells like enlarge self first and feel like your not wasting a round. Have fun with your build :).
Hey there treeant! I love the work, but i have a small suggestion, i think it would be best to use a Stepped line graph, instead of a normal line graph because you are using discreet values not gradual changes in damage, a stepped line graph would be way more readable and useful in data parsing for discreet values! Anyways keep up the great work!
I've found the new Giant Insect to be my new go to spell. The damage is ok, but it also adds a solid amount of control from the giant spider taking away movement from opponents.
Yeah, there were a couple of quality control mistakes on a cleric spell feature and on a couple of spell damage scaling when upcasting, but, for most of the times things are pretty fine. The only thing that seems to need more than an errata is the ranger.
I think that could be very intresting for this series of videos, to compare the relults with the old versions of builds. Especially for moon druid, to see how much inbalance between levels it was in the 2014 book and how much the damage has increased in general.
even without Conjure Minor Elementals and Conjure Woodland Beings, Druids still have a third broken 4th level spell: Giant Insect (spider) summons a critter that gets two attacks at your spell modifier that web on hit with no save
*Summon Fey* does more damage than *Giant Insect,* so I don't mind that its _Web Bolt_ attack can _reduce the target's Speed to 0_ for a round, since it's pretty situational when it will be useful. *Plant Growth* is already a 3rd-level Druid spell that can impede movement in a huge area, but it's existence hasn't been a wide-spread problem so far. A *Goliath* (Frost Giant Ancestry) *Eldritch Knight* with a *Whip,* *Slasher* feat, and *Ray of Frost* cantrip can _reduce a creature's speed by up to 40_ at level 7, but likewise gives up significant damage to be able to do so.
หลายเดือนก่อน
@@SortKaffe well you are both right of course. Its awesome that at level 7 you can basically go for full damage summon in fey, full AOE crowd control in plant growth or something inbetween with spider. Great thing about spider is that it is VERY reliable and works amazingly in boss fights, while also not completely shutting down your damage. Inflicting 0 speed is amazing when you can also prone target for example. Or when you really need to keep enemy in some damage over time effect, silence bubble and so on. I adore druids versatility in this regard.
I think it would do worse than the shillelagh/truestrike celestial warlock build I punched math for in that video
หลายเดือนก่อน
@@TreantmonksTemple well druid does have little bit more weapon damage support in its features and more options to cast damaging spells+bonus action attack, so it could work fine maybe... What is worrying is how squishy such build is.
Stars Druid DPR True strike heavy cross bow. Short version: Attempted to base this off your calculations. I was more liberal with including advantage by using fairie fire instead of flaming sphere. I’m not confident in this at all but I thought I’d share. I used your calculations for conjure animals & fey. Summon spells might do more single target damage but I’m uncertain & lack the math skills to find out lol. Looking at the results I’d save a lot of time just adding 10 to your base Druid numbers lol. Math breakdown is below. Lvl 1: 3.8 Lvl 2: 3.8 Lvl 3: 11.1 Lvl 4: 11.1 Lvl 5: 14 Lvl 6: 14 Lvl 7: 19.4 Lvl 8: 19.4 Lvl 9: 25.1 Lvl 10: 28.8 Lvl 11: 33.7 Lvl 12: 33.7 Lvl 13: 40 Lvl 14: 40 Lvl 15: 43.3 Lvl 16: 43.3 Lvl 17: 58.7 Lvl 18: 58.7 Lvl 19: 66.4 Lvl 20: 71.5 Avg= 32 dpr. Ice knife until lvl 3. Summon spells or conjure spells for concentration as they don’t require a BA Fairie fire instead of flaming sphere to make advantage calculations easier. Lvl 1: 3.8 (base Druid 3.2, difference TS) Lvl 2: 3.8 (no change) Lvl 3 stars druid, gain free uses of guiding bolt & BA 1d8 archer shot from starry form. For ease of math we will assume advantage for both attacks from guiding bolt & help from find familiar & fairie fire. So .84 instead of .64. I’ll ignore crits. Also didn’t include flaming sphere as we will be using faerie fire instead. Lvl 3: 11.1 = Ba 16x 3.78 (60.5) + 4 GBs (47) , 2lvl GBs (29.4) + TS 5.5x 8 (40)= 177. 177/16= 11.1 dpr. Lvl 4: 11.1 wisdom mod plus 4. Lvl 5, 7 guiding bolts of 1st lvl, guiding bolt 2nd, conjure animals 3rd. True strike adds 3.5 damage on average for 7 attacks. 1d8(4.5) 16 times from BA starry form. Lvl 5: (BA 60.5,6GBS 70.6 2x2ndGB 29.4, 7TS 52.9)/16 + 3rdCA 2.5 = 14. Lvl 6: 14 (note not using flaming sphere at all instead fairie fire). Lvl 7, add elemental fury (4.5). Note TS now deals more damage than guiding bolt, but does not grant advantage. Potent spell casting (with a wisdom mod of 5) would add .5 damage with Starry whisp over TS & elemental fury per attack. Add 4th CA Lvl 7: (BA 60.5, 6lvl 1 GBs 70.6, 2 2nd GBs 29.4, 5TS 56.7)/16 + 5.8 CA= 19.4 Lvl 8 wisdom plus 5. Lvl 8: 19.4 Lvl 9: 25.1 (CA at 5th, more CA at 3rd) Lvl 10: BA changes to 2d8. (BA 121 + 60.4 + 25 + 56.7)/16 + 12.9 CA = 28.8 Lvl 11 ts adds 2d6, however advantage from guiding bolt still provides more damage slightly. Very comparable & would be swayed by how you calculate advantage. Lvl 11: (BA 121, 3 lvl 1 GBs 35.28, 2x 2nd GB 29.4, 3GBS 45.36, 5TS 71.4) /16 + 6.6 + 8.2 (CA 4th & 5th)= 33.7 Lvl 12: 33.7 Lvl 13 CA 4th, 5thx2, 6th. Upcast guiding bolt 2x lvl 4 2x at lvl 3, 2x at lvl 2 Lvl 13: ( BA 121 + GB(121) 20.2 + 25.2 + 30.24 + 45.4 + TS 71.4)/16 + CA 20.4= 40. Lvl 14: 40 Lvl 15: CA 5th 2x CF 7th & 8th (22.4). Improved elemental fury changes TS to 93.1. (20.9) = 43.3 Lvl 16: 43.3 Lvl 17: Future sight, TS now deals an additional 3d6, 9th lvl spells. On average TS with heavy CB= 25, add to hit chance= 21. For Guiding bolt to out damage TS, it needs to be upcast to 5th lvl or higher… oof. Thanks to Future Sight, GB is officially dead (probably could have been dropped sooner for negligible loss in damage). 27 (BA & TS) + 28.7 (from C spells) = 58.7 Lvl 18: 58.7 Lvl 19: Boon of combat prowess too much math, I died X_x BA & TS = 29.4+ 37 (CF) = 66.4 Lvl 20: 71.5 (increase from another CF 7th lvl.). If you used a great sword with ts & eventually switched to Shillelagh + true strike the numbers would be a bit higher, but I was more so interested in range. Rules as written great weapon master does not work with TS, but dms might be lenient on that. Personally I’d allow it but I didn’t include it in the calculations. All that said, take these numbers with a grain of salt lol.
Again, great video. I've been re-running the model including only available Beasts as is, including 2014 version. Level 1, depending on a background that gives Magic Initiate (Wizard), then True Strike and Fire Bolt up the damage from the model, as would a damaging spell like Chromatic Orb -- and that would be 3 castings per long rest -- or Magic Missile, or the normally not great Witch Bolt that would keep on pouring out damage after Wild Shaping; though I'd go with Sleep, for strategy over damage. I can see the principle of trying to keep the character 'pure' druid, but ignoring this option seems to handicap the model. Level 2, Ox is a pretty likely winner, followed by Panther. Either does more damage than is shown in the model, contextually. And you get to choose depending on situation which to take. Either of those with Witch Bolt? CR 1 Lion, as is, for levels 3, 4, 5 arguably beats all other melee-only options, if the DM doesn't allow Ape to use weapons as objects. If the DM allows an Ape, for a Warden Moon Druid, to use martial weapons -- I certainly would, based on the Head of Vecna precedent -- then suddenly a two-weapon wielding Ape with a pair of scimitars or rapier and scimitar matches the Lion, possibly exceeding it if magic items are available. Again, more damage than is shown in the model, slightly. Spike Growth plus any beast that can push or drag an opponent (see Ox) is also nice, if Witch Bolt isn't effective, and then there's Moon Beam. CR 2 Cave Bear is better than Lion, and Call Lightning is at least as good as Flaming Sphere plus situationally can be better, for level 6. At level 7 through 20, Fount of Moonlight or CME are fine. CR 3 At levels 9-11, Giant Scorpion's 3 attacks at +4 (one with poison) are still slightly better than the Cave Bear's two attacks at +7), and by level 9 it's likely a character has some access to Strength benefitting magic, such as a potion or belt. (Would allow belt on a scorpion, but not gauntlets. You?) CR 4+, we're in general agreement, unless those potions or that belt are something extra spiffy. It's hard to argue with an elephant, otherwise. Overall, level 1-4, Druid over Warlock. Tie at level 5. Druid over Warlock until level 10. At level 11, you need a boost item (Girdle of Giant Strength, or potion) to bump the 3 attack scorpion (+poison) slightly above the 3 attack Warlock, otherwise Warlock wins over Druid at level 11. After that, our graphs roughly coincide.
Using Conjure minor elementals for the bard should be fine, it's the upcasting that is an issue. But if it's still a good idea when not upcasted, then it should be included.
according to how much more survivability Moon Druid has, the little less damage seems like a smol deal. Alternatively, 2 level Warlock dip is quite good, getting Old Ones Lesson and the lesser warcaster invocation, AND doing the infinite Armor of Agathas tactic
หลายเดือนก่อน
yeah, that armor of agathys is huge on moon druid.
I would have loved to see templates with modular abilities to choose from like Extra Attack, movement type, whatever and every time you transform you pick PB number of abilities to add to your template for that shapeshift. It would allow for cool options and make it feel like you aren’t just doing the same thing over and over, but still have the reliability of a template.
I feel that realistically a druid will probably do even more damage because of conjure woodland beings (even if it is ruled to be once per round, as it saves for half) and potential reaction attacks against enemies trying leave reach to escape from conjure animals AOE, or CWB effects if the nerf to it is CWB follows 2014 spirit guardian rules. But, even so, it's nice to see martial tier 3/4 buffs actually paying out instead of fighter being the only reliable tier 3+ martial.
หลายเดือนก่อน
I also think that not having sentinel on your druid is big mistake, atleast on higher levels. Lot of forms have 10 feet of range, making it very useful!
7:09 I hope JC knows the feeling of accidentially saying _"I decided to just go with once per turn"_ when you actually mean _"once per _*_round,_*_ not once per turn."_ If these spells aren't fixed in an Errata, that will probably be my house rule.
I feel we can't fully know what the Moon Druid can do until the MM comes out. I really hope - but don't expect - that we'll get more animal options. I still think it was a bad idea that they maxed out the number of known animals so low. Even if you can switch out animals, it's still weird you know the max number of 8 at level 8. Edit: I also think the issue wasn't that we had Templates, it's that they gave us only 3 templates. We should have gotten at least 5-6 varied templates.
Conjure animals states that an enemy makes a save when they enter a space within 10 ft of the pack. Does that mean that an enemy moving from a space 5ft from the pack to a space 10ft from the pack would have to make a save? If so it's super easy to force two saves per turn, but it could just be typical clear as mud WotC wording.
Nah, CA requires "good faith" reading, keeping RAI in mind. The wording is a bit clumsy, but you can just preted it's a 15-foot-radius Moonbeam that's easier to move around (but with half the range).
I understand that optimization means different things to different people. For me, other aspects of the game are also strongly involved in the optimization. I understand that they are more difficult to operationalize than, for example, damage, but it's hard for me to ignore the fact that spellcasters - like druids - in addition to damage, have such properties as social spells (charm person, speak with animals), healing magic (aura of vitality, healing word), crowd control (entangle, spike growth), utility spells (jump, daylight) plus different kind of damage spells. The fact that a druid is able to challenge martial classes in terms of damage still seems problematic to me. I don't know how this could even be changed without breaking the core elements of current D&D. Spellcasting could be made slower or more uncertain (like in other RPGs), but as I said, this would propably change D&D in a way that would reduce the game's popularity and sales. Someone could say that go and play other games. There are two problems. First, there are a lot of elements of D&D that I enjoy. How the magic is done is not one of them. D&D has infested itself into the roleplaying scene so strongly that sometimes it's hard to get people to even try other games. I have nothing else to say. I'm just venting my feelings here. 😄
PLEASE LOOK AT MOONBEAM!!! "...you can take a Magic action on later turns to move the Cylinder up to 60 feet." "A creature also makes this save when the spell's area moves into its space..." Moonbeam is now a LASERBEAM that can zip across the battlefield!
@@RokuroCarisumaybe single target damage is the wrong way to look at it. It's a very precise aoe, that can damage many ennemies without hitting allies. When it comes to fighting hoardes it's probably one of the best spells. If you want consistent single target damage, playing a martial is probably the best way to do so.
@@jerryhoward1304 I disagree. It is a laser. And honestly it's not that OP. Compare it to spirit guardians. A decent AOE, doesn't need an action after the first casting and only affect ennemies, and even control the battlefield through difficult terrain.
@smile-tl9in My point is only that telling Chris to look at Moon Beam isn't contributing in a meaningful way. The fact that Moon Beam is a strong AoE in the game doesn't make it relevant for single-target damage calculations, which is what this video series is all about.
2024 DRUID is the class with the most options to break the game RAW. Spike Growth (Cheese Grater), Moonbeam (Orbital Laser), Conjure Animals (Damage twice per round), Conjure Woodland Beings (Rugby), Conjure Minor Elementals.
Hey Cris can you look at putting the tavern brawler feat at 1st level then add fount of moonlight that changes the dpr, I think considerably!!! All rolls would be effected by this feat as would be primal strike and improved lunar radiance. That's a big swing rerolling 1'$ on all those damage dice. And add just one level of monk and you get a bonus action attack and add wisdom to all animal stat block ACs. Just some thoughts... Love your podcasts brother keep up the good work.
I’m sure moon dried wouldn’t be broken if monstrosities were allowed for wild shape. In my mind this would be much more thematic than defaulting to elementals at higher levels of moon Druid.
I've noticed that a lot of the beasts in the player's handbook would benefit from the Charger feat. I wonder if that will hold true for the monster manual.
Still nutty how all of the optimized build do around 80 DPR or more. Keep in mind that real big end-game monsters have like, 600 hit points, and your average party is about 4 people. That means they go down in two turns, if they aren't smart fighters.
Moon definitely looks a lot better in the 2024 edition. The damage fall off and absolutely terrible armour were major issues once you got past the early levels. I'd be interested to know how the other druid subclasses compare for damage with the moon druid. Especially Circle of the Stars with their bonus action damage.
I would have liked to see a Land Druid vs Moon druid. I also think Damage is a very poor indicator of the Druid's utility and how combat plays out realistically. Druids can now easily have very high AC, and as a Land Druid bring a ton of adaptable utility to the group that can change for the situation, and they arguably have the best crowd control. They also get a familiar (almost for free) and non-combat wildshape, which can also be used for escape. All this combined can make them very tough to kill. The fact that Druids can change out their spells after a long rest cannot be understated compared to classes that are locked in such as Bard. This is not a class where you will hurt for actions to take, there is always something you can do.
I would be interested to see how the damage of this moon Druid compares if you could use CWB and CME BUT CWB only working once per round and CME only upcasting by 1d8 per level. I feel like both of these are still fun, thematic spells and want to make sure these commonly seen “fixes” don’t nerf them into non-viability.
1d8 per level is still too much. I feel easy about the scaling of *Spirit Shroud* where _"the damage increases by 1d8 for every two slot levels."_ The spell already scaled fine, but is even stronger with the introduction of the *Nick* mastery and *Dual Wielder* feat.
Yeah, currently the only *CR 3* beast with multiattack is a *Giant Scorpion* with a meager *+4 to hit,* which is supposed to keep you going until *level 12* while other PCs have between *+9* and *+12 to hit* depending on the presence of *Magic Weapon* _(magic items or the concentration-free spell)._
@@SortKaffe If you're allowing magic items, I'd allow a giant scorpion to wear a belt of giant strength. Even just the Belt of Hill Giant Strength gives +7 to hit. Once in Tier III, arguably a Belt of Fire Giant Strength gives you 3 attacks at +9.
Would Wildshape Ape (because it can use quaterstaff and Shield) with Shillelagh not be a better starting option? It is 2 Attacks +5 1d8 +3 (so the same assuming +2 prof and +3 WIS) and then be +7 1d10 +4 from level 5 - 12 (from level 11 1d12) until you get Elephant. Slightly more Damage And it should have few advantages, which don't matter in the calculation here +2 AC because of shield Force damage all the way through -> more damage against resistences possible armor or trinkets wearable by ape (medium size and hands) possibility to grapple with hands and of course -> be wukong! :)
Not yet I’m sure, but I’m wondering if a Druid using true strike with a longbow with just a dip in ranger would be more effective than a longbow ranger. Would better concentration spells & up cast hail of thorns provide better or comparable damage? Edit: Eventually a stars Druid would be doing their weapon damage, true strike scaling, 2d8 from primal savagery & 2d8 from archer form or upcasted hail of thorns plus a concentration spell.
If everything deals the same damage, its still not necessarily balanced. The classes with the greatest utility and durability are going to be best if they all have the same damage.
It's still too much. I feel easy about the scaling of *Spirit Shroud* where _"the damage increases by 1d8 for every two slot levels."_ The spell already scaled fine, but is even stronger with the introduction of the *Nick* mastery and *Dual Wielder* feat.
Can someone explain why the Moon Druid’s chance to hit is decreasing at certain levels? I think he said something about it having to do with using stat blocks instead of templates, but I don’t understand what’s actually causing the drop.
I really wish they’d designed the moon Druid more like the pathfinder 1e eidolon, but simplified a bit. I don’t like that you can’t choose a form and stick with it through your career without hurting yourself.
The change from the playtest version of Conjure Animals is a bit disappointing. Btw, my Moon Druid player is using the Bear form from the back of the new PHB, and the claw attack auto applies the prone condition on a hit, no save. Needless to say, it’s been really powerful so far. Is that intentional? A misprint maybe? Either way, he’s getting the most out of it.
I would like to see what it would look like with Fount of Moonlight as it does decent damage with extra effects that helps a lot of allies with their attacks. So how would this have affected the numbers? EDIT: Ah looks like I was a bit too quick again. 🤣😅
Hi, thank you for the video. Is it true that in the new book the animal forms attacks are no longer considered as "weapon attacks" but rather just as melee attacks? Does that mean that animal forms are considered unarmed for the purpose of qualifying for the Monk's "Martial Arts" feature? Moreover, all of your feats are supposed to be active while in animal form, does that also include the +1 ASI to the animal's stat block gained by the feat?
No, they just removed the wording _"weapon attacks"_ across the board. That doesn't make them _"Unarmed Strike or Monk weapons"_ as required by the *Martial Arts* feature. No, a feat's *Ability Score Increase* is a single instant increase to the stats of your PC, while *Wild Shape* reads: _"Your game statistics are replaced by the Beast's stat block."_
@@SortKaffe Hi, thank you for the feedback but I will press a bit harder. - As far as I understand, monsters wielding distinct weapons will maintain the weapon attack description, so this change seems focused and intentional(correct me if I'm wrong). -I think you are referring to the 2014 martial arts description, the new rules just say: "You gain the following benefits while you are unarmed or wielding only Monk Weapons and you aren’t wearing armor or wielding a Shield". "Bonus Unarmed Strike. You can make an Unarmed Strike as a Bonus Action." I did not say that the animal form's attacks are unarmed attacks(game rules strictly clarify what unarmed attacks are), I just asked if the animal forms are considered unarmed. If so, you can make one unarmed attack as a bonus action with the martial arts die(1d6). Regarding the feats, I'm still not 100% convinced. Why for example the Resilient strength feat should not increase the animal's from stat block by +1 strength if its clearly states that feats are active while in wild shape? Are you suggesting that the animal stat blocks are locked and could not be adjusted at all? For example, if you use "Potion of Giant Strength" while in wild shape, will it not increase the strength of the animal form?
@@EktorStave Except it doesn't do that at all. Past CR1 there's an extremely limited number of forms at each level, and there tends to be one that is dramatically better than all the others. So, there's no variety at all, every Moon Druid you ever play with will use the same couple of forms. Flavor is free. Also, again, you actually have less because of the lack of viable options. If your Druid finds the Giant Spider form at CR1 and thinks that's pretty cool and wants to do a lot of spider or insect-like forms for character reasons, TOO BAD! There aren't any more. I hope you like bears. I will agree that the templates we had in the playtest were bad and needed significant reworking to get to a good place, but the problem was the templates themselves, not the fact that they were templates.
@@avvyrude7603 I aggre, but everything you said was truth with 2014 books. I believe that the new Monster Manual will have a lot more beast options for every CR and this is the fix I wanted!
Strange that you don't include Shillelagh as the base instead of Starry Wisps, increases the cantrip damage to 4.9 which increases the DPR to 5 at 1st.
Neither. Ape is only CR ½. Giant Scorpion only has +4 to hit. Hopefully it's *Strength* will be buffed, but without templates, the beasts will inevitably fall behind.
Statblocks are monsters sheets, templates are sheets that you mold based on choices and lvl up, like from summon beats and ranger’s beast of the land/sky/sea, that you add your spellcasting and proef bonus. Basically the template changes, statblocks dont.
I'm surprised you didn't account forbthe fact that many beast stat blocks include a chance to knock a creature prone. How much do you think that would effect the damage?
He did include it for the elephant from 12th level but it is a small increase because it is situational to apply the Prone and a chance afterwards to apply the bonus damage. Only a handful of Beasts past CR 1 have something like Prone on a hit so adding it to the predicted damage damage numbers at CR 2, 3, 5, and 6 would probably be unrealistic to what a Moon Druid would have access to without giving up an unknown amount of damage.
Part of the calculation includes the predicted AC of the target, which goes up every few levels. Usually, a character's bonus to attack rolls goes up consistently enough, either because their primary stat increases or their proficiency bonus goes up, so this AC increase doesn't cause this issue. It is specifically because Wildshape doesn't use your melee-attacking stats or proficiency bonus that causes this issue outside of levels where you get a better form or a better spell to pair with the form. You get a new form every 3 levels so you can run into a situation where your damage hasn't gone up after a level up but the average AC of the enemies you run into have increased
Specifically, the assumption is that enemy AC goes up with proficiency bonus and expected main stat progression such that there is always a base 60% chance to hit for normal attacks. For instance, at level 12, we expect that most characters will be attacking with +9, while the moon druid has a +8 due to elephant form, hence the 55% chance to hit. At 13, everyone else is taking advantage of an increased proficiency bonus to get to +10 on attack rolls, and the assumed target AC goes up by one to keep the base chance to hit at 60%. The moon druid is still stuck at +8 trying to hit the higher AC, and this has a 50% chance to hit.
I don’t understand how increasing in a level can result in doing less damage. You don’t lose anything so surely you have to be able to do the same damage as you were doing the previous level? 🤔
It’s about the chance to hit. Certain assumptions about enemy AC are built into the leveling, but beast stat blocks don’t follow the same progression, so where you would be hitting at 60% vs an AC17 target at one level, you would be hitting at 55% the next level vs an AC18 target if your to hit modifiers didn’t also increase.
Given the Moon Druid is still a full caster who can at least be 80-90% as effective in melee as builds specifically designed to be melee builds is definitely okay. I still can't understand why the playerbase was so opposed to templates though, makes it needlessly complicated for no reason.
Because if I turn into a spider I want to be able to climb a wall & make webs. If I turn into a skunk I want to leave a stink bomb behind. That’s the magic stat blocks loose. Instead just give us a way to scale our stats, like they did for HP & AC.
We were opposed to the templates shown in UA4 which were bad enough that you are an actively worse PC just by using your defining class feature. You basically turned yourself into a beast masters pet without the ranger to go with it. They could have workshopped them and gave them better scaling etc but they didn't.
@@stevenmatthews5712 Templates in UA were the first draft and easily could be improved, but feedback was overwhelming and so now we need 2 boooks to play a Druid.
@@guardiantree8879 Not true, adding abilities to templates easily solves this problem. The Templates iin the UA were a first rough draft and weren't complete, but due to a landslide of negative feedback we're now stuck with needing the MM just to play a Druid.
@@andrewshandleI don’t think it’s as easy of a fix as you suggest, unless we got warlock invocation levels of depth with the templates. Stealth, climbing, flight, sizes, swimming, senses & perception, web, venom, constriction, charging and etc. They already limited the amount of searching you need to do by limiting the number of known forms. Sure it stinks we need to wait for the MM, but it’s not like there aren’t other options to use until then. Beyond that, if you’re trying to sell something, make it look good. Even if it’s over turned, better than trying to sell us hot garbage. This isn’t on the fan base. If they made the templates better, there wouldn’t have been such a major backlash (though I think the templates even if good power wise would have still been divisive, unless like I said they made it really in depth).
I like the idea of templates for wildshape but the templates they came up with in the playtest were awful. There were so many beast features that made 2014 wildshape great. Pack tactics, auto grapple or restrain, swallow, web and more. If they incorporated those types of very fun features into the templates then i think wildshape issues would be largely fixed. Moon druid is built for combat but cant use its own PB for attack rolls in wildshape. What a shame.
Dude, warlocks are looking rough. They are doing less or matching the damage when we have a very short list of creatures, and druids are full casters. Don't get me wrong rogues are in a worse spot at east before magic weapons come into play but warlock feels near bottom now.
hmmmm this doesn't look great for the assassin Druid can switch between damage and hard control and huge utility whenever it wants. Assassin not so much. Spells are far more versatile and widely applicable than skills. It's not great to see a caster being able to match martial damage if they want while STILL being able to do everything else a caster can do. Doesn't look great at all imo
@@henrymalinowski5125 It's not like the druid is helpless against range either. It's one thing to compare melee vs range for martials - when casters are involved, things are quite different. No caster is truly melee-locked.
I haven’t really looked at the new Druitt a whole lot just yet so this video is nice to see, I know when Tasha came out at least I think when Tasha came out, they added the magic weapon. Spell to the Read list… With the new rules on unarmed strikes wouldn’t that allow you to cast that on your beasts natural weapons now? I haven’t looked into that whole section of the book too much just yet I typically stick to Malay characters it’s just my preferred Place style, just wondering if they did that and if they still get that spell or if they ever got it because it doesn’t require concentration anymore, wouldn’t that be a nice way to boost your to hit rate on your animal forms making it so you’re a little less likely to have such a low to hit rate and increase their damage potential? Just curious if you know anyone knows that would be an awesome comment to receive. Also in the 2014 rules in my home group, we haven’t really decided with the new 2024 stuff yet cause we haven’t done a full campaign. We’re waiting until the monster manual actually comes out and just doing short games at the Moment. We allowed the druid to use their spell attack in their animal forms because honestly, I kind of felt like the druid got shafted in that area and even though in 2014 they were still well very lackluster after 5th/6 level. It did help them be at least a little more functional in Malay combat in the mid tears until very, very very high-level. Wonder if this would be a good fix for the 2024 stuff any opinions? Thanks again for the great video looking forward to the bard… And yeah my group totally banned conjuring minor elementals until they fix it. It’s just busted at the moment and we really really don’t like to band stuff either but that one we totally did lol I have no clue how it slipped through the play test.
still the idiot choice of not making th druid able to use their own wisdom for beast attacks and beast saves. and not giving the beast / companions an magical weapons / items to increase the to attack chances. They could have give us both a template for generic wildshape and known forms for more specialised play style. why they didnt do that its beyond me.
Crazy that when you don't test the features (spells) with the most potential for being broken they end up being broken. Lets spend that time instead to take decisions away from martials! What a joke of a dev team.
![เปิดบ้าน โคตรสวย ป๋องกพล รู้จักตั้งนาน เพิ่งรู้ว่ารวย!!! l [Nickynachat]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/tmgCF_2HfYI/mqdefault.jpg)
There's no one else out there who makes such 'real-world' builds and dpr estimates. And you still keep the flavour and roleplaying and fun in the mix. Outstanding!
well thats argueable just look at d4 deep dive roleplay+ dpr depending on various factors
I love D4, but it rarely has "real world," practical builds.
@@tazyjump5377 While I love d4's builds, his builds aren't as 'real-world'. He is, as he says, "beholden to the spreadsheet". His primary goal is to get the biggest numbers, not to be a well rounded character.
For example, Treantmonk chose Healer for an origin feat. This is an excellent choice for a druid. However, it doesn't add to damage. D4 would probably choose something like Lucky instead to get advantage on some of the attack spells. This is wonderful for seeing max damage, but not as realistic for normal play.
Lately Colby changed his way of doing math to one closer to Treants. Also i noticed he is more often making build choises that gear towards more allaround characters instead of squizing every drop of damage/heal/tank he can get.
Which i think is good for him :)
Honestly been pretty happy with the Casters not being quite up there with the martials in terms of single target damage.
ST damage is the bread and butter for Martials, so I am glad they have at least one role in which they aren't consistently outclassed by not having spells.
It's also not like the Casters are terrible at ST damage either. Your calcs have typically been assuming half the spell slots on damage. When taking into account all the other things a Caster can do with those other slots, these numbers aren't bad at all imo.
Been really enjoying this series!
But... doesn't this show a caster being up there with an assassin? I think this made the assassin look really bad - this is a full caster we're talking about, and they have all the versatility that comes with it alongside the damage
My issue as it has always been since the UA, is that a Wildshaped druid loses most of their spellcasting. If my wildshape form is going to be balanced with other gishes who still have full access to their spellcasting, I want full access to my spellcasting too.
@@agilemind6241 The Bladelock build was using all the spell slots on damage though, while the Moondruid was only using certain slots (generally the higher level slots available at the time). This means outside of combat the Moondruid _could_ have all the versatility of a full caster still, while performing similarly to the Bladelock and Assassin.
The one thing stopping that is that the Moondruid is very squishy - the Bladelock build was far more tanky with various layers of defence and Temp HP gen. The Moondruid just has the small amount of Temp HP to rely on. Now, that can be a large amount of Temp HP over rounds (not within a round, though), by expending low level spell slots to refresh - so, this is where the rest of the spell slots will be used up. It probably makes them still quite fragile at lower levels though even if they use every spell slot on survival due to the scarcity of spell slots at those levels. So, as Chris mentioned, Moondruid is not looking so good at low levels, which is an ironic reversal of 2014.
Now, Chris avoids the stronger builds available, so all this is not representative of the optimal cases. For example, with the new magic item crafting system Thief has ready access to magic items they choose, like say a Pistol (Vex) of True Strike. Combined with Scrolls of True Strike they can SA twice per round reliably at ranged, doing substantially more damage than Assassin. They can also make/loot/buy other magic items for versatility outside of combat. Similarly, the CWB Moondruid playing tag. Likewise, Chris will avoid the CME Vardlock, which is probably one of the most highest damage dealing and out-of-combat versatile builds available in 2024.
Even if we ignore potential shenanigans, I feel Warlock is quite redundant now - to get better than mediocre damage requires using the spell slots (before cantrip damage alone was enough), which they don't have many of - and then even if they use all the spell slots for damage they still end up with substantially less damage than a damage-orientated martial like Barbarian or Fighter (so you might as well play them in that case). If the Warlock attempts to hold back spell slots for actually acting like a caster the damage drops off immensely - meanwhile, the full casters can dedicate just a portion of their spell slots to reach the same values as a Warlock blowing all of theirs, leaving spell slots for use as the versatility of a full caster. Other than as a dip for Paladins (Cha-SAD) and Bards (Cha-SAD and Valor shenanigans), Warlock just doesn't have a niche now. Even Sorc likely wont see the benefit of delaying spell casting progression for the minor amounts of damage offered by the Warlock cantrips.
I still maintain that warlock is underpowered by this metric, because it's closer to a half caster than a full caster in many ways, and in terms of its core gameplay loop, which is primarily eldritch blast.
@@limaTheNoob It shows being a melee focused caster is up there with an assassin when an assassin can (a) do its damage at range and (b) avoid taking hits in a way a bladelock or druid will have to tank.
Most other channels are just offering opinions on content I can read and form my own opinions on, and I find that boring. Your approach, on the other hand, allows me to eagerly look forward to Mondays and Fridays to find out how they ACTUALLY compare, not just opining on how they might compare. Thank you for your service. The only thing we're really lacking with these graphs in how some builds might excel at multitarget damage and battlefield control where they fall behind in single target damage.
Worth noting that many Beasts have additional effects that trigger after you successfully land a hit like Crocodiles Grapple on a Bite or Dire Wolfs causing Prone on a Bite. Many Beasts, such as the Dire Wolf, used to have these secondary effects based on a Saving Throw, but they are now automatic on a hit.
The Elephant also has a chance to Prone and deal extra damage to Prone targets, but this is very situational. I'm happy to see Chris added this at the 12th level when CR 4 Beasts are available.
The Templates was such a good idea imo, all it needed was a little love by adding abilities, say four abilities and the Druid can choose two when they Wild Shape, 'I'm taking the flying template and taking the knock down ability and the disengage ability' or similar.
They just needed a little bit of sauce to be great.
Hoping for a future supplement (* of everything) to make templates an option
I will never get over the scrapping of templates. Literally the fix for druids I've wanted for a decade
They seemed incapable of understand the idea of the idea is good, but the exact implementation shown isn't during the playtest. So, they would just scrap the entire idea instead of taking feedback and improving it.
Another great video, Chris!
A few math notes on the Spell & Cantrip Base:
At levels 11-16, you calculate the Starry Wisp damage as 14 * 11.8 / 16 = 10.3, but then go on to use 11.8 in summing them.
Levels 17-20, you don't calculate the 14/16 of the Starry Wisp at all, and just use 21.1 as though you were using it every single round.
Also, in the latter levels you use all your highest-level slots on concentration spells, which is fine. But at levels 15-18, you for some reason only use 2 5th level slots, a 7th level and an 8th level (and a 9th for Foresight starting at 17), instead of a 5th, a 6th, a 7th, and an 8th. It's minor but it does add a little extra damage and the inconsistency's a bit strange. Obviously Druid casters' focuses aren't on damage, though, and that conclusion doesn't change lol. It's nice to see that they pace the basic BlastLock pretty well though.
Pack tactics, trample, are just some of the abilities of the beasts WE DO KNOW that can further add to the druids damage. I suspect there will also be beasts with either 3 attacks, pack tactics, prone and restrained conditions and/or other bonus action features which can greatly impact the effectivness of a moon druid.
Truth is, at this point, trying to calculate moon druids damage past level 5 is still just a wild guess. One must also consider the aoe damage druid can do via spells while also simultaneously being a competitive single target class.
Still boggled that they didn't let you use your Spell Attack from level 6 as a Moon Druid. Basically turns your stat blocks into Templates if your adding damage, using your own THP/HP and replacing attacks and saves.
Could have had the best of all worlds!
I have heard of some tables house ruling that you use your own Proficiency bonus with forms as well, so that could help the lower CR forms still be usable with the to hit scaling. I also wish that in some way the attacks could scale off of WIS, but then WIS is basically the only stat you need, beyond CON for concentration, though the Moon Druid gets good boosts to those saves.
Already playing in a campaign ( we are lvl 15 in the Vecna ). Absolutely amazing, full moon druid. I am using 3rd party wild shapes, indeed. Conjure animals and font of moonlight are pretty much my go to and then I maybe do a mass cure wounds, rarely. The current wild shapes are an absolute NO
On a tangent, what do you think of Vecna? My players are interested in doing a high level campaign when I wrap up my current Rime of the Frostmaiden campaign and that seems to be the next play…
@@CaideJordan The campaign can feel like the players are always on the run, and if your players like making connections with NPCs, there isn't a lot of that in the Vecna campaign. You either homebrew some mini-stories in each "arc" ( you level up at the end of each plane / chapter ) or you just accept that it's kind of a dungeon crawl, but the "dungeon" is over multiple planes of existence ( sort of an abstraction ).
@@valentinrafael9201 That’s great insight. Are you cool with this or do you prefer a different kind of game? And I’ve never run games at this level…is it a slog to play or is it still fun?
@@CaideJordan I played my first ever session yesterday. And oh boy you can really notice it when the other player has also never played or watched campaigns and the DM is rather new to DMing. Of course we are still only 1st lvl so there's enough time for the DM as well as any other later on joining players to catch up on how this work. I'm playing an artificer and I'm planning to 1 lvl dip order cleric with the rest in battle smith, as a sort of nerfed version of Treantmonks God Wizard. The DM is rather oberly generous, because he let's me play as a winged tiefling with a ''bat curse gotten from a vampire/spawn or something alike'' so now I get fog cloud as a free spell and echolocation (functions like blindsight), now he did ask me to do something for him and keep it quiet to the rest of the group which is fine by me. As for the other player since he is playing a human ranger named Hank I think there's plenty of time to ''mold him'' into an effective player and PC teammate.
But to that effect would you happen to know a good source that explains the rules that I could point the new players to? I would much appreciate it.
@@CaideJordan They have a variety of monsters, but tbh, you can just add your own. In terms of liking it, I am pretty flexible with the campaigns. For me it's more the people I play with rather than the campaign setting itself or its playstyle. The monsters from 10 to 14 feel pretty easy to deal with for the level, probably regardless of class / subclass/
Good morning Chris! Excited for this one, my play group is shifting to 2024 when we start our next campaign and I've been looking at making a Druid for it!
Thank you as always for the company while I'm at work and for all the work you put into giving us so many videos! Much love 💜 until the next one!
Right back at you @atingley0913
Seeing the subscriber count be SO CLOSE to 100k is just BRUTAL! You’re so close, Chris! Your work in the last several months has been phenomenal, absolutely unparalleled by anyone in the community. I hope you still feel proud of the work you’ve done, even if the sub count is just under that milestone. I’ve adored your content for years and I love being part of your community here!
My first 2024 character is a Druid 4/Monk 2. First I cast Enlarge, then wild shape into a lion, I also have the Wraps of Unarmed Prowess +1 that my DM allows in Wildshape since it's changing size but not really shape. The following turns I Multiattack rend then flurry of blows. If everything hit, I'm rolling 2d8, 2d6, 2d4 + 15 damage.
I'm not sure how this build will scale or what levels and feats to continue with, but I'm having a blast with it right now! @Treantmonk's Temple
I think starting fighter with lizardfolk or shifter longtooth can also be good. Gives you fighting style, str and con save, and 1 more level second wind when you later use action to cast damage spells like enlarge self first and feel like your not wasting a round. Have fun with your build :).
Great video, have been anticipating it for a while!
Hey there treeant! I love the work, but i have a small suggestion, i think it would be best to use a Stepped line graph, instead of a normal line graph because you are using discreet values not gradual changes in damage, a stepped line graph would be way more readable and useful in data parsing for discreet values! Anyways keep up the great work!
19:56 the disdain and disappointment in your voice 😭😭😭 thanks for making these Chris this was helpful
Just noticed your sub number. Getting so close. Keep up the great work.
I've found the new Giant Insect to be my new go to spell. The damage is ok, but it also adds a solid amount of control from the giant spider taking away movement from opponents.
great choice, that one feels really solid
Thanks for the video! A comment for support!
Looks like an enjoyable build.
Thanks for the maths. Knowing of all the utility on top. It’s good damage
So far it seems like all the classes are rather well balanced. With few hick ups.
Lmao I'm sorry I don't normally correct people but "hick ups" is too funny. It's hiccup or sometimes hiccough
Yeah, there were a couple of quality control mistakes on a cleric spell feature and on a couple of spell damage scaling when upcasting, but, for most of the times things are pretty fine. The only thing that seems to need more than an errata is the ranger.
I think that could be very intresting for this series of videos, to compare the relults with the old versions of builds. Especially for moon druid, to see how much inbalance between levels it was in the 2014 book and how much the damage has increased in general.
Waiting soo long for this video
Please share this vid to all Druid lovers or comment for the algorithm! We need to get Chris to 10k subs before the holidays!!!
Really appreciate all the videos, especially the discussion around conjuration spells.
As the de facto champion of stat blocks for Wildshape, I'd love to see how Chris would build them and possibly implement them for homebrew.
Cant wait to see this one
even without Conjure Minor Elementals and Conjure Woodland Beings, Druids still have a third broken 4th level spell: Giant Insect (spider) summons a critter that gets two attacks at your spell modifier that web on hit with no save
*Summon Fey* does more damage than *Giant Insect,* so I don't mind that its _Web Bolt_ attack can _reduce the target's Speed to 0_ for a round, since it's pretty situational when it will be useful. *Plant Growth* is already a 3rd-level Druid spell that can impede movement in a huge area, but it's existence hasn't been a wide-spread problem so far.
A *Goliath* (Frost Giant Ancestry) *Eldritch Knight* with a *Whip,* *Slasher* feat, and *Ray of Frost* cantrip can _reduce a creature's speed by up to 40_ at level 7, but likewise gives up significant damage to be able to do so.
@@SortKaffe well you are both right of course. Its awesome that at level 7 you can basically go for full damage summon in fey, full AOE crowd control in plant growth or something inbetween with spider. Great thing about spider is that it is VERY reliable and works amazingly in boss fights, while also not completely shutting down your damage. Inflicting 0 speed is amazing when you can also prone target for example. Or when you really need to keep enemy in some damage over time effect, silence bubble and so on. I adore druids versatility in this regard.
I honestly love moon druid because shapeshifting is just so cool to me, but seeing it justified in play makes it better!
I wonder what would happen if you mix shillelagh with truestrike from magic initiate origin feat. Add the emanation from the sea Druid
I think it would do worse than the shillelagh/truestrike celestial warlock build I punched math for in that video
@@TreantmonksTemple well druid does have little bit more weapon damage support in its features and more options to cast damaging spells+bonus action attack, so it could work fine maybe... What is worrying is how squishy such build is.
Stars Druid DPR
True strike heavy cross bow.
Short version: Attempted to base this off your calculations. I was more liberal with including advantage by using fairie fire instead of flaming sphere. I’m not confident in this at all but I thought I’d share. I used your calculations for conjure animals & fey. Summon spells might do more single target damage but I’m uncertain & lack the math skills to find out lol.
Looking at the results I’d save a lot of time just adding 10 to your base Druid numbers lol. Math breakdown is below.
Lvl 1: 3.8
Lvl 2: 3.8
Lvl 3: 11.1
Lvl 4: 11.1
Lvl 5: 14
Lvl 6: 14
Lvl 7: 19.4
Lvl 8: 19.4
Lvl 9: 25.1
Lvl 10: 28.8
Lvl 11: 33.7
Lvl 12: 33.7
Lvl 13: 40
Lvl 14: 40
Lvl 15: 43.3
Lvl 16: 43.3
Lvl 17: 58.7
Lvl 18: 58.7
Lvl 19: 66.4
Lvl 20: 71.5
Avg= 32 dpr.
Ice knife until lvl 3.
Summon spells or conjure spells for concentration as they don’t require a BA
Fairie fire instead of flaming sphere to make advantage calculations easier.
Lvl 1: 3.8 (base Druid 3.2, difference TS)
Lvl 2: 3.8 (no change)
Lvl 3 stars druid, gain free uses of guiding bolt & BA 1d8 archer shot from starry form. For ease of math we will assume advantage for both attacks from guiding bolt & help from find familiar & fairie fire. So .84 instead of .64. I’ll ignore crits. Also didn’t include flaming sphere as we will be using faerie fire instead.
Lvl 3: 11.1 = Ba 16x 3.78 (60.5) + 4 GBs (47) , 2lvl GBs (29.4) + TS 5.5x 8 (40)= 177. 177/16= 11.1 dpr.
Lvl 4: 11.1 wisdom mod plus 4.
Lvl 5, 7 guiding bolts of 1st lvl, guiding bolt 2nd, conjure animals 3rd. True strike adds 3.5 damage on average for 7 attacks. 1d8(4.5) 16 times from BA starry form.
Lvl 5: (BA 60.5,6GBS 70.6 2x2ndGB 29.4, 7TS 52.9)/16 + 3rdCA 2.5 = 14.
Lvl 6: 14 (note not using flaming sphere at all instead fairie fire).
Lvl 7, add elemental fury (4.5). Note TS now deals more damage than guiding bolt, but does not grant advantage. Potent spell casting (with a wisdom mod of 5) would add .5 damage with Starry whisp over TS & elemental fury per attack. Add 4th CA
Lvl 7: (BA 60.5, 6lvl 1 GBs 70.6, 2 2nd GBs 29.4, 5TS 56.7)/16 + 5.8 CA= 19.4
Lvl 8 wisdom plus 5.
Lvl 8: 19.4
Lvl 9: 25.1 (CA at 5th, more CA at 3rd)
Lvl 10: BA changes to 2d8. (BA 121 + 60.4 + 25 + 56.7)/16 + 12.9 CA = 28.8
Lvl 11 ts adds 2d6, however advantage from guiding bolt still provides more damage slightly. Very comparable & would be swayed by how you calculate advantage.
Lvl 11: (BA 121, 3 lvl 1 GBs 35.28, 2x 2nd GB 29.4, 3GBS 45.36, 5TS 71.4) /16 + 6.6 + 8.2 (CA 4th & 5th)= 33.7
Lvl 12: 33.7
Lvl 13 CA 4th, 5thx2, 6th. Upcast guiding bolt 2x lvl 4 2x at lvl 3, 2x at lvl 2
Lvl 13: ( BA 121 + GB(121) 20.2 + 25.2 + 30.24 + 45.4 + TS 71.4)/16 + CA 20.4= 40.
Lvl 14: 40
Lvl 15: CA 5th 2x CF 7th & 8th (22.4). Improved elemental fury changes TS to 93.1. (20.9) = 43.3
Lvl 16: 43.3
Lvl 17: Future sight, TS now deals an additional 3d6, 9th lvl spells. On average TS with heavy CB= 25, add to hit chance= 21.
For Guiding bolt to out damage TS, it needs to be upcast to 5th lvl or higher… oof. Thanks to Future Sight, GB is officially dead (probably could have been dropped sooner for negligible loss in damage).
27 (BA & TS) + 28.7 (from C spells) = 58.7
Lvl 18: 58.7
Lvl 19: Boon of combat prowess too much math, I died X_x
BA & TS = 29.4+ 37 (CF) = 66.4
Lvl 20: 71.5 (increase from another CF 7th lvl.).
If you used a great sword with ts & eventually switched to Shillelagh + true strike the numbers would be a bit higher, but I was more so interested in range.
Rules as written great weapon master does not work with TS, but dms might be lenient on that. Personally I’d allow it but I didn’t include it in the calculations.
All that said, take these numbers with a grain of salt lol.
Again, great video.
I've been re-running the model including only available Beasts as is, including 2014 version.
Level 1, depending on a background that gives Magic Initiate (Wizard), then True Strike and Fire Bolt up the damage from the model, as would a damaging spell like Chromatic Orb -- and that would be 3 castings per long rest -- or Magic Missile, or the normally not great Witch Bolt that would keep on pouring out damage after Wild Shaping; though I'd go with Sleep, for strategy over damage. I can see the principle of trying to keep the character 'pure' druid, but ignoring this option seems to handicap the model.
Level 2, Ox is a pretty likely winner, followed by Panther. Either does more damage than is shown in the model, contextually. And you get to choose depending on situation which to take. Either of those with Witch Bolt?
CR 1 Lion, as is, for levels 3, 4, 5 arguably beats all other melee-only options, if the DM doesn't allow Ape to use weapons as objects. If the DM allows an Ape, for a Warden Moon Druid, to use martial weapons -- I certainly would, based on the Head of Vecna precedent -- then suddenly a two-weapon wielding Ape with a pair of scimitars or rapier and scimitar matches the Lion, possibly exceeding it if magic items are available. Again, more damage than is shown in the model, slightly. Spike Growth plus any beast that can push or drag an opponent (see Ox) is also nice, if Witch Bolt isn't effective, and then there's Moon Beam.
CR 2 Cave Bear is better than Lion, and Call Lightning is at least as good as Flaming Sphere plus situationally can be better, for level 6. At level 7 through 20, Fount of Moonlight or CME are fine.
CR 3 At levels 9-11, Giant Scorpion's 3 attacks at +4 (one with poison) are still slightly better than the Cave Bear's two attacks at +7), and by level 9 it's likely a character has some access to Strength benefitting magic, such as a potion or belt. (Would allow belt on a scorpion, but not gauntlets. You?)
CR 4+, we're in general agreement, unless those potions or that belt are something extra spiffy. It's hard to argue with an elephant, otherwise.
Overall, level 1-4, Druid over Warlock. Tie at level 5. Druid over Warlock until level 10. At level 11, you need a boost item (Girdle of Giant Strength, or potion) to bump the 3 attack scorpion (+poison) slightly above the 3 attack Warlock, otherwise Warlock wins over Druid at level 11. After that, our graphs roughly coincide.
I feel like this is a build we’ll definitely have to return to once the MM releases.
Using Conjure minor elementals for the bard should be fine, it's the upcasting that is an issue. But if it's still a good idea when not upcasted, then it should be included.
Thank you for your information video
according to how much more survivability Moon Druid has, the little less damage seems like a smol deal.
Alternatively, 2 level Warlock dip is quite good, getting Old Ones Lesson and the lesser warcaster invocation, AND doing the infinite Armor of Agathas tactic
yeah, that armor of agathys is huge on moon druid.
Yessss :) watching now.... Starting as Warden?
So close to 100k! Let's goooo!
I would have loved to see templates with modular abilities to choose from like Extra Attack, movement type, whatever and every time you transform you pick PB number of abilities to add to your template for that shapeshift. It would allow for cool options and make it feel like you aren’t just doing the same thing over and over, but still have the reliability of a template.
What about taking a look at the sea and stars druid as they have powerful bonuses actions that increase DPR.
3:54 The 2024 update turned Chris into a Nickelback meme
It's great to see that druid will work quite well. Nothing game breaking, but certainly no slouch even at something they rarely focus on. 😁
I feel that realistically a druid will probably do even more damage because of conjure woodland beings (even if it is ruled to be once per round, as it saves for half) and potential reaction attacks against enemies trying leave reach to escape from conjure animals AOE, or CWB effects if the nerf to it is CWB follows 2014 spirit guardian rules. But, even so, it's nice to see martial tier 3/4 buffs actually paying out instead of fighter being the only reliable tier 3+ martial.
I also think that not having sentinel on your druid is big mistake, atleast on higher levels. Lot of forms have 10 feet of range, making it very useful!
7:09 I hope JC knows the feeling of accidentially saying _"I decided to just go with once per turn"_ when you actually mean _"once per _*_round,_*_ not once per turn."_
If these spells aren't fixed in an Errata, that will probably be my house rule.
I'd love to see the full graph of all the classes damage once we have everyone
I feel we can't fully know what the Moon Druid can do until the MM comes out. I really hope - but don't expect - that we'll get more animal options. I still think it was a bad idea that they maxed out the number of known animals so low. Even if you can switch out animals, it's still weird you know the max number of 8 at level 8.
Edit: I also think the issue wasn't that we had Templates, it's that they gave us only 3 templates. We should have gotten at least 5-6 varied templates.
Truestrike, wrath of the sea, summon fey melee Druid is what I am looking forward too
I created similar, but ranged version with truestrike+shortbow stars druid. Divine archer kinda vibe =)
Wrath of Sea combos really well with Booming Blade
Conjure animals states that an enemy makes a save when they enter a space within 10 ft of the pack. Does that mean that an enemy moving from a space 5ft from the pack to a space 10ft from the pack would have to make a save? If so it's super easy to force two saves per turn, but it could just be typical clear as mud WotC wording.
Nah, CA requires "good faith" reading, keeping RAI in mind. The wording is a bit clumsy, but you can just preted it's a 15-foot-radius Moonbeam that's easier to move around (but with half the range).
1:42 simple fix. A creature can only take this damage once per round not per player turn
I understand that optimization means different things to different people. For me, other aspects of the game are also strongly involved in the optimization. I understand that they are more difficult to operationalize than, for example, damage, but it's hard for me to ignore the fact that spellcasters - like druids - in addition to damage, have such properties as social spells (charm person, speak with animals), healing magic (aura of vitality, healing word), crowd control (entangle, spike growth), utility spells (jump, daylight) plus different kind of damage spells. The fact that a druid is able to challenge martial classes in terms of damage still seems problematic to me. I don't know how this could even be changed without breaking the core elements of current D&D. Spellcasting could be made slower or more uncertain (like in other RPGs), but as I said, this would propably change D&D in a way that would reduce the game's popularity and sales.
Someone could say that go and play other games. There are two problems. First, there are a lot of elements of D&D that I enjoy. How the magic is done is not one of them. D&D has infested itself into the roleplaying scene so strongly that sometimes it's hard to get people to even try other games.
I have nothing else to say. I'm just venting my feelings here. 😄
PLEASE LOOK AT MOONBEAM!!!
"...you can take a Magic action on later turns to move the Cylinder up to 60 feet."
"A creature also makes this save when the spell's area moves into its space..."
Moonbeam is now a LASERBEAM that can zip across the battlefield!
That's cool, but changes nothing about its single-target damage.
@@RokuroCarisumaybe single target damage is the wrong way to look at it. It's a very precise aoe, that can damage many ennemies without hitting allies. When it comes to fighting hoardes it's probably one of the best spells.
If you want consistent single target damage, playing a martial is probably the best way to do so.
I would heavily assume that the designers did not intend it to move across the battlefield like a laser beam. That would be insanely OP.
@@jerryhoward1304 I disagree. It is a laser. And honestly it's not that OP. Compare it to spirit guardians. A decent AOE, doesn't need an action after the first casting and only affect ennemies, and even control the battlefield through difficult terrain.
@smile-tl9in My point is only that telling Chris to look at Moon Beam isn't contributing in a meaningful way. The fact that Moon Beam is a strong AoE in the game doesn't make it relevant for single-target damage calculations, which is what this video series is all about.
Obviously this vid will need a version 2.0 when the MM drops in February.
2024 DRUID is the class with the most options to break the game RAW. Spike Growth (Cheese Grater), Moonbeam (Orbital Laser), Conjure Animals (Damage twice per round), Conjure Woodland Beings (Rugby), Conjure Minor Elementals.
IVE BEEN ANTICIPATING THIS VIDEO! IS LION THE NEW KING OF THE JUNGLE???
The Lion looks really good
Hey Cris can you look at putting the tavern brawler feat at 1st level then add fount of moonlight that changes the dpr, I think considerably!!! All rolls would be effected by this feat as would be primal strike and improved lunar radiance. That's a big swing rerolling 1'$ on all those damage dice. And add just one level of monk and you get a bonus action attack and add wisdom to all animal stat block ACs. Just some thoughts... Love your podcasts brother keep up the good work.
I’m sure moon dried wouldn’t be broken if monstrosities were allowed for wild shape. In my mind this would be much more thematic than defaulting to elementals at higher levels of moon Druid.
Good thing Elementals are gone then. Sad thing that scaling of _chance to hit_ is gone with the Elementals.
I've noticed that a lot of the beasts in the player's handbook would benefit from the Charger feat. I wonder if that will hold true for the monster manual.
Still nutty how all of the optimized build do around 80 DPR or more.
Keep in mind that real big end-game monsters have like, 600 hit points, and your average party is about 4 people.
That means they go down in two turns, if they aren't smart fighters.
Moon definitely looks a lot better in the 2024 edition. The damage fall off and absolutely terrible armour were major issues once you got past the early levels. I'd be interested to know how the other druid subclasses compare for damage with the moon druid. Especially Circle of the Stars with their bonus action damage.
I would have liked to see a Land Druid vs Moon druid. I also think Damage is a very poor indicator of the Druid's utility and how combat plays out realistically. Druids can now easily have very high AC, and as a Land Druid bring a ton of adaptable utility to the group that can change for the situation, and they arguably have the best crowd control. They also get a familiar (almost for free) and non-combat wildshape, which can also be used for escape. All this combined can make them very tough to kill. The fact that Druids can change out their spells after a long rest cannot be understated compared to classes that are locked in such as Bard. This is not a class where you will hurt for actions to take, there is always something you can do.
I would be interested to see how the damage of this moon Druid compares if you could use CWB and CME BUT CWB only working once per round and CME only upcasting by 1d8 per level.
I feel like both of these are still fun, thematic spells and want to make sure these commonly seen “fixes” don’t nerf them into non-viability.
1d8 per level is still too much. I feel easy about the scaling of *Spirit Shroud* where _"the damage increases by 1d8 for every two slot levels."_ The spell already scaled fine, but is even stronger with the introduction of the *Nick* mastery and *Dual Wielder* feat.
CR 2 isn't too bad, it's just CR 3 there's like nothing
Polar Bear has a +7 and using point buy, players will be +7 at 6 and 7 and +8 at level 8
Yeah, currently the only *CR 3* beast with multiattack is a *Giant Scorpion* with a meager *+4 to hit,* which is supposed to keep you going until *level 12* while other PCs have between *+9* and *+12 to hit* depending on the presence of *Magic Weapon* _(magic items or the concentration-free spell)._
@@SortKaffe If you're allowing magic items, I'd allow a giant scorpion to wear a belt of giant strength. Even just the Belt of Hill Giant Strength gives +7 to hit. Once in Tier III, arguably a Belt of Fire Giant Strength gives you 3 attacks at +9.
I think having the chance to hit be your spell hit modifier solves all the issues.
Would Wildshape Ape (because it can use quaterstaff and Shield) with Shillelagh not be a better starting option? It is 2 Attacks +5 1d8 +3 (so the same assuming +2 prof and +3 WIS) and then be +7 1d10 +4 from level 5 - 12 (from level 11 1d12) until you get Elephant. Slightly more Damage
And it should have few advantages, which don't matter in the calculation here
+2 AC because of shield
Force damage all the way through -> more damage against resistences
possible armor or trinkets wearable by ape (medium size and hands)
possibility to grapple with hands
and of course -> be wukong! :)
Not yet I’m sure, but I’m wondering if a Druid using true strike with a longbow with just a dip in ranger would be more effective than a longbow ranger.
Would better concentration spells & up cast hail of thorns provide better or comparable damage?
Edit: Eventually a stars Druid would be doing their weapon damage, true strike scaling, 2d8 from primal savagery & 2d8 from archer form or upcasted hail of thorns plus a concentration spell.
Did you consider a true strike circle of the sea build?
Im playing a warden moon druid and a magician land druid. But have not reached level 3 yet. So far the warden build has been more fun.
If everything deals the same damage, its still not necessarily balanced. The classes with the greatest utility and durability are going to be best if they all have the same damage.
My table made the upscaling of the conjure minor elementals be 2d4, what is your opinion?
It's still too much. I feel easy about the scaling of *Spirit Shroud* where _"the damage increases by 1d8 for every two slot levels."_ The spell already scaled fine, but is even stronger with the introduction of the *Nick* mastery and *Dual Wielder* feat.
Can someone explain why the Moon Druid’s chance to hit is decreasing at certain levels? I think he said something about it having to do with using stat blocks instead of templates, but I don’t understand what’s actually causing the drop.
Not looking too bad and it could be even better with the new monster manual, at least hoping it's not worse.
I really wish they’d designed the moon Druid more like the pathfinder 1e eidolon, but simplified a bit. I don’t like that you can’t choose a form and stick with it through your career without hurting yourself.
The change from the playtest version of Conjure Animals is a bit disappointing.
Btw, my Moon Druid player is using the Bear form from the back of the new PHB, and the claw attack auto applies the prone condition on a hit, no save.
Needless to say, it’s been really powerful so far.
Is that intentional? A misprint maybe?
Either way, he’s getting the most out of it.
I want to see Druid or Valour Bard with Conjure minor elementals
He's already done a Valor Bard with Conjure Minor Elementals. 😉
Does buying the 2024 DMG unlock custom background on dnd beyond for character creation?
What the numbers be higher grappling while wildshape?
I would like to see what it would look like with Fount of Moonlight as it does decent damage with extra effects that helps a lot of allies with their attacks. So how would this have affected the numbers?
EDIT: Ah looks like I was a bit too quick again. 🤣😅
Hi, thank you for the video. Is it true that in the new book the animal forms attacks are no longer considered as "weapon attacks" but rather just as melee attacks? Does that mean that animal forms are considered unarmed for the purpose of qualifying for the Monk's "Martial Arts" feature? Moreover, all of your feats are supposed to be active while in animal form, does that also include the +1 ASI to the animal's stat block gained by the feat?
No, they just removed the wording _"weapon attacks"_ across the board. That doesn't make them _"Unarmed Strike or Monk weapons"_ as required by the *Martial Arts* feature.
No, a feat's *Ability Score Increase* is a single instant increase to the stats of your PC, while *Wild Shape* reads: _"Your game statistics are replaced by the Beast's stat block."_
@@SortKaffe Hi, thank you for the feedback but I will press a bit harder.
- As far as I understand, monsters wielding distinct weapons will maintain the weapon attack description, so this change seems focused and intentional(correct me if I'm wrong).
-I think you are referring to the 2014 martial arts description, the new rules just say:
"You gain the following benefits while you are unarmed or wielding only Monk Weapons and you aren’t wearing armor or wielding a Shield".
"Bonus Unarmed Strike. You can make an Unarmed Strike as a Bonus Action."
I did not say that the animal form's attacks are unarmed attacks(game rules strictly clarify what unarmed attacks are), I just asked if the animal forms are considered unarmed. If so, you can make one unarmed attack as a bonus action with the martial arts die(1d6).
Regarding the feats, I'm still not 100% convinced. Why for example the Resilient strength feat should not increase the animal's from stat block by +1 strength if its clearly states that feats are active while in wild shape? Are you suggesting that the animal stat blocks are locked and could not be adjusted at all? For example, if you use "Potion of Giant Strength" while in wild shape, will it not increase the strength of the animal form?
I love that Chris is exactly as salty about the community whining about templates for wild shape as I am.
Ditto 😂
I think that the versatility and flavour of stat blocks are much more important than the reliable attack roll number of Templates.
@@EktorStave Except it doesn't do that at all. Past CR1 there's an extremely limited number of forms at each level, and there tends to be one that is dramatically better than all the others. So, there's no variety at all, every Moon Druid you ever play with will use the same couple of forms. Flavor is free. Also, again, you actually have less because of the lack of viable options. If your Druid finds the Giant Spider form at CR1 and thinks that's pretty cool and wants to do a lot of spider or insect-like forms for character reasons, TOO BAD! There aren't any more. I hope you like bears.
I will agree that the templates we had in the playtest were bad and needed significant reworking to get to a good place, but the problem was the templates themselves, not the fact that they were templates.
@@avvyrude7603 I aggre, but everything you said was truth with 2014 books. I believe that the new Monster Manual will have a lot more beast options for every CR and this is the fix I wanted!
With the assumption change how xan u compare vs the others now?
Strange that you don't include Shillelagh as the base instead of Starry Wisps, increases the cantrip damage to 4.9 which increases the DPR to 5 at 1st.
I'm increasingly bugged by the fact that the ranger video used no summoning but other videos routinely use summoning.
I used summoning with the TWF Ranger
Just DRUID!
~_~
Wish they had gone with templates. Just for flavor reasons really.
Ape or Scorpion for multi-attack with CME or Fount of Moonlight?
Neither. Ape is only CR ½. Giant Scorpion only has +4 to hit. Hopefully it's *Strength* will be buffed, but without templates, the beasts will inevitably fall behind.
@@SortKaffe Valid points. You're not wrong.
There is no Gish like the dual class Elf fighter-magic user. Oh. Wait. Wrong edition.. by 4.5.
What is the diference between statblocks and templates?
Statblocks are monsters sheets, templates are sheets that you mold based on choices and lvl up, like from summon beats and ranger’s beast of the land/sky/sea, that you add your spellcasting and proef bonus.
Basically the template changes, statblocks dont.
I'm surprised you didn't account forbthe fact that many beast stat blocks include a chance to knock a creature prone. How much do you think that would effect the damage?
He did include it for the elephant from 12th level but it is a small increase because it is situational to apply the Prone and a chance afterwards to apply the bonus damage. Only a handful of Beasts past CR 1 have something like Prone on a hit so adding it to the predicted damage damage numbers at CR 2, 3, 5, and 6 would probably be unrealistic to what a Moon Druid would have access to without giving up an unknown amount of damage.
Not including Conjure Minor Elemental is a big miss...lol
Druid damage Speedrun a achievement! 😂
Shouldn't the DPR never go down? Barring cases involving switching out spells, you could always just do the same thing as you did the previous level.
Part of the calculation includes the predicted AC of the target, which goes up every few levels. Usually, a character's bonus to attack rolls goes up consistently enough, either because their primary stat increases or their proficiency bonus goes up, so this AC increase doesn't cause this issue. It is specifically because Wildshape doesn't use your melee-attacking stats or proficiency bonus that causes this issue outside of levels where you get a better form or a better spell to pair with the form. You get a new form every 3 levels so you can run into a situation where your damage hasn't gone up after a level up but the average AC of the enemies you run into have increased
Specifically, the assumption is that enemy AC goes up with proficiency bonus and expected main stat progression such that there is always a base 60% chance to hit for normal attacks. For instance, at level 12, we expect that most characters will be attacking with +9, while the moon druid has a +8 due to elephant form, hence the 55% chance to hit. At 13, everyone else is taking advantage of an increased proficiency bonus to get to +10 on attack rolls, and the assumed target AC goes up by one to keep the base chance to hit at 60%. The moon druid is still stuck at +8 trying to hit the higher AC, and this has a 50% chance to hit.
Please subscribe everyone!! Only 1.1k left!!
I don’t understand how increasing in a level can result in doing less damage. You don’t lose anything so surely you have to be able to do the same damage as you were doing the previous level? 🤔
It’s about the chance to hit. Certain assumptions about enemy AC are built into the leveling, but beast stat blocks don’t follow the same progression, so where you would be hitting at 60% vs an AC17 target at one level, you would be hitting at 55% the next level vs an AC18 target if your to hit modifiers didn’t also increase.
@ Ah! Okay I get it now. Thanks.
Given the Moon Druid is still a full caster who can at least be 80-90% as effective in melee as builds specifically designed to be melee builds is definitely okay.
I still can't understand why the playerbase was so opposed to templates though, makes it needlessly complicated for no reason.
Because if I turn into a spider I want to be able to climb a wall & make webs.
If I turn into a skunk I want to leave a stink bomb behind.
That’s the magic stat blocks loose. Instead just give us a way to scale our stats, like they did for HP & AC.
We were opposed to the templates shown in UA4 which were bad enough that you are an actively worse PC just by using your defining class feature. You basically turned yourself into a beast masters pet without the ranger to go with it. They could have workshopped them and gave them better scaling etc but they didn't.
@@stevenmatthews5712 Templates in UA were the first draft and easily could be improved, but feedback was overwhelming and so now we need 2 boooks to play a Druid.
@@guardiantree8879 Not true, adding abilities to templates easily solves this problem. The Templates iin the UA were a first rough draft and weren't complete, but due to a landslide of negative feedback we're now stuck with needing the MM just to play a Druid.
@@andrewshandleI don’t think it’s as easy of a fix as you suggest, unless we got warlock invocation levels of depth with the templates.
Stealth, climbing, flight, sizes, swimming, senses & perception, web, venom, constriction, charging and etc.
They already limited the amount of searching you need to do by limiting the number of known forms. Sure it stinks we need to wait for the MM, but it’s not like there aren’t other options to use until then.
Beyond that, if you’re trying to sell something, make it look good. Even if it’s over turned, better than trying to sell us hot garbage. This isn’t on the fan base.
If they made the templates better, there wouldn’t have been such a major backlash (though I think the templates even if good power wise would have still been divisive, unless like I said they made it really in depth).
Don't see the video yet, but just to register my disappointment with @Treantmonk for not putting a furry thumb in this video.
I like the idea of templates for wildshape but the templates they came up with in the playtest were awful. There were so many beast features that made 2014 wildshape great. Pack tactics, auto grapple or restrain, swallow, web and more. If they incorporated those types of very fun features into the templates then i think wildshape issues would be largely fixed. Moon druid is built for combat but cant use its own PB for attack rolls in wildshape. What a shame.
Dude, warlocks are looking rough. They are doing less or matching the damage when we have a very short list of creatures, and druids are full casters. Don't get me wrong rogues are in a worse spot at east before magic weapons come into play but warlock feels near bottom now.
hmmmm this doesn't look great for the assassin
Druid can switch between damage and hard control and huge utility whenever it wants. Assassin not so much. Spells are far more versatile and widely applicable than skills. It's not great to see a caster being able to match martial damage if they want while STILL being able to do everything else a caster can do. Doesn't look great at all imo
But the Assassin gets to do this damage from 100 ft away.
@@henrymalinowski5125 It's not like the druid is helpless against range either. It's one thing to compare melee vs range for martials - when casters are involved, things are quite different. No caster is truly melee-locked.
This this this
I haven’t really looked at the new Druitt a whole lot just yet so this video is nice to see, I know when Tasha came out at least I think when Tasha came out, they added the magic weapon. Spell to the Read list… With the new rules on unarmed strikes wouldn’t that allow you to cast that on your beasts natural weapons now? I haven’t looked into that whole section of the book too much just yet I typically stick to Malay characters it’s just my preferred Place style, just wondering if they did that and if they still get that spell or if they ever got it because it doesn’t require concentration anymore, wouldn’t that be a nice way to boost your to hit rate on your animal forms making it so you’re a little less likely to have such a low to hit rate and increase their damage potential? Just curious if you know anyone knows that would be an awesome comment to receive. Also in the 2014 rules in my home group, we haven’t really decided with the new 2024 stuff yet cause we haven’t done a full campaign. We’re waiting until the monster manual actually comes out and just doing short games at the Moment. We allowed the druid to use their spell attack in their animal forms because honestly, I kind of felt like the druid got shafted in that area and even though in 2014 they were still well very lackluster after 5th/6 level. It did help them be at least a little more functional in Malay combat in the mid tears until very, very very high-level. Wonder if this would be a good fix for the 2024 stuff any opinions? Thanks again for the great video looking forward to the bard… And yeah my group totally banned conjuring minor elementals until they fix it. It’s just busted at the moment and we really really don’t like to band stuff either but that one we totally did lol I have no clue how it slipped through the play test.
still the idiot choice of not making th druid able to use their own wisdom for beast attacks and beast saves.
and not giving the beast / companions an magical weapons / items to increase the to attack chances.
They could have give us both a template for generic wildshape and known forms for more specialised play style. why they didnt do that its beyond me.
Crazy that when you don't test the features (spells) with the most potential for being broken they end up being broken.
Lets spend that time instead to take decisions away from martials! What a joke of a dev team.
Oh wait
We did test some spells. Shame no one told them about the ones that were busted No one at all.