You certainly are long winded, Thanks, I tend to like that. Oh all the things I could say if my typing wasn't so slow... your first comment was obnoxious, it did not contain educational material, just a vague warning with no specifics. (and an amusing typo) I like your second comment. my comments did not stray outside the field of Cedar bark stripping, into other interesting fields like timber framing. so use of elaborate tooling is pointless, any old tool will get you as far as i did in this video. can and did they use more variety in tools? of course. my education in this subject came exclusively from 3 books. after I put that into practice I attracted the attention of serious and competent weavers and I learned a lot more. the stripping I demonstrate is (in my area) the traditional way it was done for weaving and for weaving only. they also made temporary canoes with full sheets of bark.and other projects . but they built scaffolds and used other tools. this is outside the scope of this simple video. as far as how they did it in the far reaches of this vast planet... I haven't the foggiest idea. is my method crude? yup! but it matched all the weavers in my area "Haida Guaii" now I'm down south on Vancouver Isl. and it's the same thing. my comments were confined to western red cedar. the only useful part of the bark for weaving is the inner bark "cambium" collecting this permanently maims the tree. you said the tree has bounced back after harvest. I would strait up call you a liar, but you mentioned cork oak. and to that I would add Paper Birch, both of these trees can and often are harvested with minimal harm to the tree.(I'm sure I misunderstand you in this) for weaving: narrow strips are ideal it's actually counter productive to make wide strips as it makes it harder to process and harder to strip the bark. most of the weavers I knew were woman and somewhat frail from age... they would say I was young and strong so can pull such wide strips, that pleased them to see. is it possible to make rectangle strips? of course but that's for specialty projects... then out comes the scaffold and specialty tools. outside the scope of my video. the barking spud is most commonly used on downed logs... not standing trees. and it works when the timber is green or dry makes no never mind. i assume the conditioning you mean is to re-soak the timber to make the bark peel off easier. the only reason I made this video is that my Mother asked me to help her make some baskets and place mats, which I did. I was at the time making videos of anything I found interesting... this is an obscure subject. I thought I'd help new weavers get a start. it was not my intent to make a video based encyclopedia. nor chase down every possible ramification in every statement I made. I'm a competent weaver, not in any way excellent, like so many of the women I was privileged to work beside. it's an occupation and the level of skill attainable would blow your mind. me on the other hand : I wanted to pick berries so I made a basket. when the sun hurt my eyes I made a hat. when I needed rope I made rope. when I needed to carry water I bought a nice bottle and wrapped it in bark so it wouldn't smash, then carved a cedar cork and went about my life. If you want to see what I am good at look at the videos called "things I've made" & "knives I made". it's just a quick overview but you'll get the idea your channel contains no videos made by you, after that I lost interest. and did not google stalk you. you have some fabulous Asian style timber framing on your bio thing... not nearly enough pictures for my liking. you could do some videos I'm sure they would be interesting. I have no idea where you got the idea I said I can do something I cant do or know something I don't. it's not my style to do that. Jared
Apologies for the length...I teach and type fast...LOL!!!...and my often "blunt" nature when writing about a given subject or observation...It can be "obnoxious" I'm sure (sorry for that!) Such comments from me are not meant to be, yet rather corrective and educational. If one "goes public" then they must be accurate with a topic they share and willing to take feedback from those with more experience...I fail to validate my experience but I have been criticized for that by folks as it often can seem arrogant ( I guess?) when we list our credentials... In your video, you have done what many are doing... which is true...That is not how it was done, nor is it correct unless just going for a "quick strip" to make something impromptu that is needed. For a real authentic harvest, it looks a lot different than in this video...and...even for a quick stripping, you have more to develop in your methodology, as do many of the Native Folks as well which often don't do a great job themselves these days...Too much lost knowledge over the last century... I hope you get to find a teacher to work with in person someday as these skill sets seem to be important to you. Books are great but simply do not get anyone past the most basic of knowledge and little in the way of actual practical skillsets for many of the traditional arts... As for what you are harvesting (or should be?) let's not confuse the layers...and what actually "maims" a tree...The..."Cork Camdium"..."Cortex"...and maybe into the "Primary and Secondary Phloem," only should be the goal....IF...!!!... you're getting down into the..." Vascular Camdium" and "Xeylum" that is way too deep and will harm a tree...!!!...otherwise they will grow back just fine as I stated... Modern Stripping methods (what you show in the video) is a common practice today...That was kind of my point. What it used to be for was a "quick need" for a stip of bark in those cultures. Because the proper skills have been lost...now all that is left is the generic and impromptu methods...NOT...the correct methods at all. These " impromptu methods" are now the norm...but not the scope or proper format for the craft...that is my point as most that harvest do not know nearly enough about the tree to be doing what they are doing to them..."Ignorance is bliss" kind of thing...or..." they don't know what they don't know" and what has been forgotten... Again...(just today for example once more as it's spring here)...barks spuds are used on standing trees too. This isn't a debate, as you are trying to suggest something you seem to have only limited "book knowledge" of...and not an apprenticeship, or decades do the craft, and related. So yes, you do use spuds (English term) on standing trees too...Is it done by most...No, you are correct...They have not been taught how and that knowledge is being lost. You would be better served to practice some form of "experimental archeology" for yourself and then ask questions of those that still have these skillsets rather than making assumptions of what you are doing as being correct or full scope in the range of practice. Yes, you can do what you are doing...is it correct or full scope in practice...NO! I am very pleased you have made the video and I hope you explore these traditional methods! I have seen your other videos and will continue to follow along as your skills and interests grow. Thanks for sharing what you have and for the dialogue as well...!!! Go to my playlists for videos...if you seek info, or to my "about page," for links. I do the crafts I don't make videos of them...and leave that for others (at this time ) to be TH-camrs. So, you are very correct about my own channel as I am very much a Luddite in many ways. I don't live like others in most ways...no cell phones (never had one) and without modern amenities for the most part. I have to walk to get to where there is a computer as I'm in an "Amish" farm area now and on a large farm (1200 acres) that is only "horse and bugging" with no power or running water. I have lived traditionally much of my life and only use a computer to correspond with students, write and do research... Good luck with your venture and reach out anytime should you have a query, Jared!
@@JayCWhiteCloud For the purpose of weaving cedar bark the most valuable layer is that touching the sapwood, the next most valuable layer is the one that touches the brown corky part of the bark ( the remaining living part ) the dead bark has no value for weaving ( it is used for other things though) sorry I don't use Latin or technical terms. Some weaving uses all the living layers of bark, like larger baskets as it is stronger. but for hats and smaller baskets the bark is split to thin it down. a hat is to heavy to be comfortable if the strips are not split. It is VERY "difficult" I should say painstaking, to remove all the dead brown bark from the living part. mostly the strips are thinned in half and the side containing the brown parts are saved for other projects.and the best strips are used for show-yer things like hats. I say all this because the highly prized layers when removed, kill all future growth from where the bark was removed. the full years worth of bark was collected in the spring/early summer,and stored for later use, mostly in the winter. separating the layers on the tree is for all practical purposes impossible, it's hard enough doing it in your lap. no doubt veneer cutting machinery could be designed and built. 10 months of the year the bark cant be stripped off the tree by hand and if tools are used the quality would suffer remarkably. if you have some obscure methods whereby you can get high quality weaving bark off the tree without maiming or killing the tree ( western red cedar ) no doubt it would seem like magic to every weaver I've meet so far in my life. I don't use a cell phone ether I was raised without a TV in the home. I like the sound of the way you live your life. I'm not easily offended your "blunt" and to the point writing style is fine by me. object criticize or YELL all you want so long as your are conveying actionable data while doing it. you should read some of the truly horrible comments I have received/deleted on this video. Somehow it really hits a nerve with the tree huger types. For all your long letters and list of tools I'm still at a loss as to how someone can strip the "inner living bark touching the sapwood" from the tree with out maiming it for the remainder of the trees life. Please advise. are there any videos in your playlist with you in the video, I would like to see you doing your thing... always loved timber framing. Jared
@@nomadicoasis9260 Hi Jared, I'll try to be shorter this time or at least address each of your points/queries directly below that follow quotes of part of your response “...For the purpose of weaving cedar bark the most valuable layer is that touching the sapwood…sorry I don't use Latin or technical terms.” No worries about the Latin, I shared that more for reference should you dig deeper into this subject… Each species is different (to some degree) and what is peeled off easily doesn’t harm the tree in a permanent fashion…IF…!!!...the Xeylum and Alburnum (sapwood) are not damaged… The challenge and issue with many harvesting bark today… are they have not been taught directly by an Elder in the proper harvest of the material… or …. by an Elder that holds solid understanding in practice and linage… The Latin name is moot, but knowing that cutting the Xeylum-Alburnum (when the first cut is made) will cause significant damage, as this layer (and failure to recognize it!!!) is the major issue. If you cut through these layers (Xeylum-Alburnum) you have now effectively partially girdled the tree. It can no longer transport water and minerals to the crown of the tree. In “best practice” you will also not remove any of the " Vascular Camdium" as this is what feeds and is the growing part of the trunk. It annually produces new bark and new wood in response to hormones that pass down through the phloem with food from the leaves. These hormones, called “auxins”, stimulate new growth in cells. The real goal is and only should be the “Bast fiber” (This is primarily in the Phloem of most plants that have a “bast” structure) section of the "Cork Camdium"..."Cortex"...and "Primary Phloem,”...NOTHING MORE…or you are effectively slow killing a tree and would be better served just going for a “full harvest,” of all the tree and what it offers… “...Some weaving uses all the living layers of bark…” True, and in this context traditionally it was taken from only very large trees along with riven plank…or…the entire tree was used. The scars of this work can still be found today all along the Pacific coast with many of the wounds being centuries old. A large healthy tree, in time, can overgrow this and be subject to another harvest. One of the reasons this is called the “tree of life” in Native culture is that it can yield many materials over millennia of life and generations of humans…WHEN…treated respect and proper knowledge… “...It is VERY "difficult" I should say painstaking, to remove all the dead brown bark from the living part…” If the strippings are not soaked in water first, I imagine this is a very painstaking task for you. I know when, as a child, we did it, the strippings had always been soaked in either tidal pools (for certain methods I know, not the details of) or in streams under rocks. In some methods, the strippings got “fermented” (also called retting just as we do with Spanish Moss.) I still use all these methods, and more now that I have learned since then such… If you are soaking them, perhaps it's not for a long enough time? “...I say all this because the highly prized layers when removed, kill all future growth from where the bark was removed…” As mentioned above, this is then an incorrect initial incision…or…a desire for other deeper material which is only done with extremely large trees. This speaks to the facts I shared in my first post about the massive disconnect that exists between what people are doing today and what many think they know, compared to the actual proven and effective traditions of our Elders that had the proper knowledge to harvest materials sustainably… “...separating the layers on the tree is for all practical purposes impossible…” Yes and no, but that would certainly take too long to explain in written form… “...if tools are used the quality would suffer remarkably…” I agree that is true…IF…you don’t know what you are doing or how to do it properly. There is an optimal time to harvest bark, that we can agree on, but any time of the year, other than when frozen solid in some areas bark can be harvested. Different seasons…different methods… “...if you have some obscure methods whereby you can get high-quality weaving bark off the tree without maiming or killing the tree ( western red cedar ) no doubt it would seem like magic to every weaver I've met so far in my life…” Lost and poorly practice methods would be a better description than “obscure.” These methods exist still today around the globe in many cultures that utilized these and related species. These are the same methods used for millennia, and that I learned as a child... “...I don't use a cell phone either I was raised without a TV in the home. I like the sound of the way you live your life…” Awesome…!!!...It's sad more folks these days can’t embrace that lifestyle as technology has taken over their lives.. “...I'm not easily offended your "blunt" and to the point writing style is fine by me…” I’m humbled and thankful for that as too many take my manner poorly and seem to have thin skin also which just is not healthy. I like feedback, and I love it when someone (at least!!!) engages in a discussion even if our perspectives may not be fully aligned or in the process of gaining a deeper understanding…Blessings for that! “...you should read some of the truly horrible comments I have received/deleted on this video…” Sadly, Jared, I have seen and experienced such disrespect all too common these days on TH-cam, and why my channel (at this time) does not have videos of my own work. I don’t have time to mentor and teach, as well as deal with such unnecessary abuse from the ignorant masses and “armchair experts” that are out on the internet… I mentor a number of folks with channels and why I don’t really need one yet with my own videos. Mr. Chickadee (as an excellent example) reached out years ago to learn more and tells me of the abuse he receives daily from those that have to comment but have zero knowledge of the traditional crafts… “...Somehow it really hits a nerve with the tree huger types…” LOL…(not really funny…but…LOL)...I know this literally first had as a working Arborist when I was still working daily in the business!!! I have had my truck tires slashed more than once, and even police called on me or me on them for threatening my life. I could recount many such incidences that would fill many pages and display a level of ignorance that would (and is laughable) if it was not so sad also… Frankly, even in the style, you practice now, for its limited scope and purpose, I would rather see you do more videos experimenting with these methods as we have discussed them including riving off planks, learning to climb and rig in both modern and traditional ways (I’m sure you seen those methods in your books!) To HELL with the “tree huggers” that have never actually embraced a forest or a tree. They have never learned the true history or culture some of us have with them…used them…slept in them even for that matter…LOL…!!!...So please do make more videos!!! Bottom line…KILL SOME TREES…but do it respectfully, document it well, and explain what you are trying to do and learn so these methods are not lost again or forever. You have the platform to do this, you have the resource, the creator brought my eyes to view the video and now our paths have crossed. You're going to accidentally (and intentionally!) kill trees. That is to be expected…Now learn to make complete use of all the trees, and/or facilitate getting those materials to those that can use them. “...For all your long letters and list of tools I'm still at a loss as to how someone can strip the "inner living bark touching the sapwood... Please advise.” That is a more than fair assessment on your part and why I’m spending the latter half of my life teaching and writing books and papers. Words on screen nor paper alone are enough to convey all the subtle details, and there is, of course, damage to some of these methods. I don’t mind that, but rather documenting well the method and outline what is happening and what could be improved or better done by anyone that is trying to learn. Overall, I like your videos and want to see more. If I didn’t I would have been even blunter and a lot less pedantic than I have been…LOL!!! If I could get out to your area sometime, I would love to do so and perhaps that may happen someday if the Creator sets me on a path that way once more. In the meantime, you do have the books and you most certainly can reach out to many any time you wish! I may not always be able to respond quickly but I will in time, assuming I have not “kicked the bucket,”...LOL!!! “...are there any videos in your playlist with you in the video, I would like to see you doing your thing... always loved timber framing…” I will keep my eye out for any new or current experimental archeological work in this area and share it with you immediately. On that last note, reach out to some local colleges with these types of research programs and stimulate a conversation! I know they are out there!!! Blessings, j
@@JayCWhiteCloud OK I think there was a subtle difference in our terms... the layers of "Bark" most prized are: vascular cambium and secondary phloem. vascular cambium, this stuff when removed never grows back.or makes new bark ever. not that I've ever seen. secondary phloem, the bark may- to- likely will regrow good as new the sapwood "secondary xylem" will continue to conduct sap till it get plugged up and wants to turn into heartwood. in your (i assume) words- the tree will continue to live and grow. trees live with extensive damage... the bark sometimes will roll over growing in from the sides and seal off the wound made by stripping bark. but the sapwood usually dies and rots away without ever growing new bark on the wound section. I get the feeling I'm not going to be teaching you with this comment. stripped bark if let dry never regains it former workabillity some but not enough to make it exceptable practice to do this. the dead outer bark needs to be removed on the spot and sucks for you if its a hot day. keep it wet and work fast. don't harvest when in drought. let it rain before harvesting. once the outer bark has been removed it can be stored for later use , ie. making the strips. just re-soak for 4 hours or more, to long and it will mould or discolour. I'm tired have a good night I truly enjoyed this conversation Blast the tree huggers. they buy toilet paper and lumber or writing paper and then point there fingers and sneer at the loggers they just hired. not fond of clear-cuts AT ALL. Peace on earth has not been an accurate term since the Garden of Eden.some people are so out of touch with the world as it actually is. I think the average beaver kills more trees in it's life than I have in my weaving "carrier" just for a bit of perspective. I'll reread your comment tomorrow. PS Gullets, Bark Bar Rollers- definition. didn't know how they pertained to bark harvest. but now i assume you were referring to woodwork in general. glut is a big wooden wedge. and Bar Rollers are for dropping in the split when riving of planks from a living tree, from the top down. I'm thinking Gullet is not a glut. Bark Bar Rollers neither myself nor Google has any idea what that is. That's why I confined my snarky remarks to Barn spud... LOL Jared
@@nomadicoasis9260 Hey Jared, "... the layers of "Bark" most prized are: vascular cambium and secondary phloem..." !!!...Correct! "...vascular cambium, this stuff when removed never grows back.or makes new bark ever...the bark sometimes will roll overgrowing in from the sides and sealing off the wound made by stripping bark. but the sapwood usually dies and rots away without ever-growing new bark on the wound section." Incorrect...and...correct Or not in the sense you are thinking of how a tree heals which is nothing like that of human tissue. Take for example when a limb is CORRECTLY removed from a tree. The "limb collar" must be left in place. Though the direct tissue under this is of both sap and hart wood tissues...the outer rim where the Xylem and related "healing tissue" still are will in time "cause over the cut wound fully and completely... With a "stripping would" as found in bark removal, lightning strikes, wind event damage, etc. this healing process may take decades of even a venture or more depending on the severity of the wound... You not "seeing it" is not surprising at all since you are measuring your understanding from a "human perspective" and not from the "tree's perspective"...more importantly the tree's reality... If the harvest is not too invasive...it will heal...and the "overgrowing in from the sides," is the indicator of this. The sapwood does not die...nor should it "rot away" unless the harvest was done poorly...It will be caused over and new sapwood with form in this area. This is called an "inclusion." In the harvest of poor quality, rot may issue and an "inclusion canker" could well form later killing the tree needlessly... "...I get the feeling I'm not going to be teaching you with this comment..." I'm not sure of that Jared...LOL...I have been working in the tree industry, on and off since 1973...and climbed my first Pacific Giant to sleep in with my Mother in 1967! The number of trees I have climbed and/or worked on is now pushing 100,000! If you count the traditional craftwork, logging, and operating different sawmills it's well over that number significantly... "...stripped bark if let dry never regains it former workability...some but not enough to make it acceptable practice to do this. " Incorrect... If done correctly it most certainly does regain pliability. In some methods, it MUST be dried first and in others, it must be retted... I have reconstituted several bast fibers types (including those of the Cypress family) decades after harvest. However, the first harvest has to be done properly and those fibers must also be treated properly, and there are many methods and solutions for doing so. If your statement was even remotely true the Smithsonian's examples (no in the Native American Museum) would not be pliable or supple after centuries of storage in some of their examples of this work... Again, we are getting into "I think" concepts and notions based on both poor initial understanding of what the traditional methods are and what they sadly have become. I have often held classes of this and different forms to have Elders walk over to me and ask where I received my knowledge and depth of understanding. Many have been quite shocked about how little they understood after a presentation... "...the dead outer bark needs to be removed on the spot..." Incorrect...it does not at all and one of the biggest disconnects I see in the craft of harvesting, yet 90% or more are under this false assumption...or...are just impatient and don't wish to take the time to take the bark through all the proper stages of processing... "...I'm tired have a good night I truly enjoyed this conversation..." Me too Jared, and I hope in time I see some other videos with some "relearning" of methods once more common there in your videos as you expand these skill sets you clearly show an aptitude for... "...Blast the tree huggers. they buy toilet paper and lumber or writing paper and then point their fingers and sneer at the loggers they just hired. not fond of clear-cuts AT ALL...." AMEN...!!!...and through in the Vegan bleeding heart "nitwits" that have zero clue of the actual "circle of life" and being part of it... "...PS Gullets, Bark Bar Rollers- definition..." I'm going to pull a "book list" together and send you a link that has a lot of this in it. As our conversations expand and you have a direct question, feel free to ask them!!! Again, so much of what is "being done" in the world of Pacific Coast crafts is but a very pale version of what once was...Bark Harvesting is just the tip of the Iceberg of lost (or poorly practiced) skill sets happening today... And yes, those tools (and many more!!!) apply to not only green woodworking in other cultures but in the Pacific Northwest traditions also. I'm sure you have the book "Cedar: Tree of Life to the Northwest Coast Indians," by Hilary Stewart? This is an excellent tomb in many ways and well documents many (not all) of the tools used including...Gullets/Gluts, Bark Bar Rollers (also used in riving work), etc. "...glut is a big wooden wedge. and Bar Rollers are for dropping in the split when riving of planks from a living tree, from the top down..." Basically...yes "...I'm thinking Gullet is not a glut..." In English, I have seen both terms used interchangeably in historical documents. They go by other names (of course) in different cultures but are employed in the same fashion... "...Bark Bar Rollers neither myself nor Google has any idea what that is..." LMAO...!!!...Poor Google does not even come close to having everything mapped out and recorded (yet) or at least not in English. More than have my research has to be done in other languages just to get the esoteric information I am looking for on topics... Till Later, j
It's been a few years, it's doing fine. Here's a tragic thing about life... When were hungry we kill things. When we want to cloth our self we kill things. Unless it's a petroleum product then it just kills things in a different way. I'm not happy about this. Perhaps you've found a better way?
@@nomadicoasis9260 well, if you put it this way - you don't need to kill a tree for doing something that you don't need, just for a hobby. And no - you don't have to kill something to make clothes. We do not live in mediaeval times.
@@Sheepdog1314 I was referring to killing cotton plants or hemp or flax . I don't see a difference between that and cedar trees, killing plants is required. as for just a hobbie I made a cupple hats to keep the sun out of my eyes. a few berry picking baskets which saw regular use every year, baskets for other things. rope ect. very practical necessary items. when you go to the Big Box store and buy these very same items there is someone on the other end killing plants to make your things for you.there is no difference between you and me it's just that you pay someone to do it for you.
I think the issue is that you over-harvested that tree, not that stripping bark will kill a tree. It was a little excessive, less would have ensured it's survival.
actually if you harvest 30% or less of the bark the tree survives a long long time. when using natural materials there is always a cost. and synthetic materials of course have a different kind of a cost.
@@nomadicoasis9260 This is the way my Native G Grandfather harvested bark from trees, never stripping it completely so that the tree would survive. Today most people cut the tree down to get the bark. It was really nice to see how it use to be done. BTW, my G Grandmother made all kinds of beautiful baskets and my G Grandfather made canoes. That's how they made their living.
@@kikitymeck I don't think I ever made a dollar from weaving but I've made lots of nice things from it: wrapped water bottles,baskets ,rope.hats. it's a nice material to work with. thanks for watching.
I see these videos of cypress bark harvest and it often really disturbs me as I can see that the "traditional ways" are either not being taught properly or the person doing the job (butchering the process quite often!!!) has just "reinvented" how they "think" it should be done. Even many First Nations People have lost the full skills of proper bark harvesting and thus do more damage to trees than is necessary, and/or don't get full sheeting off as was traditionally done. If a plate/sheet is started and the goal is 300 mm wide (or wider) depending on what a given tree can safely yield, then there should be little loss of that from the beginning if the proper traditional tools and methods are employed. There was entirely too much "handwork" being demonstrated in this video and no application of the traditional harvest tools such as (in English)...Bark Spuds, Gullets, Bark Bar Rollers, etc... I only post here for other readers NOT TO FOLLOW...the methods shown in this video but rather to learn the proper ways to harvest bark properly rather than harm more trees...
It's called a bark spud it's got nothing to do with a barn, not required in the spring not possible to peel bark in other seasons. not possible to use effectively on a standing tree. Gullets, Bark Bar Rollers. your getting overly complicated. it's a simple processes, the natives used a chisel and mallet . there is a lot to know in order to do it well. but tools are the least of your worries. the bark always peels in a triangle no exceptions. (it does appear to be run out but it follows the grain) not in a thousand years will you get a rectangle. peeling bark ALWAYS maims the tree no exceptions. I wish you great success in your carrier as an armchair expert.and when you've done this a bunch of times come back to my video, you'll see it's just another boring day at work. not remarkable no great mysteries to be found. just solid advice that if followed will get you through the processes in a tolerable manner. Regards Jared
You certainly are long winded, Thanks, I tend to like that. Oh all the things I could say if my typing wasn't so slow...
your first comment was obnoxious, it did not contain educational material, just a vague warning with no specifics. (and an amusing typo) I like your second comment.
my comments did not stray outside the field of Cedar bark stripping, into other interesting fields like timber framing. so use of elaborate tooling is pointless, any old tool will get you as far as i did in this video. can and did they use more variety in tools? of course.
my education in this subject came exclusively from 3 books. after I put that into practice I attracted the attention of serious and competent weavers and I learned a lot more. the stripping I demonstrate is (in my area) the traditional way it was done for weaving and for weaving only. they also made temporary canoes with full sheets of bark.and other projects . but they built scaffolds and used other tools. this is outside the scope of this simple video. as far as how they did it in the far reaches of this vast planet... I haven't the foggiest idea.
is my method crude? yup! but it matched all the weavers in my area "Haida Guaii" now I'm down south on Vancouver Isl. and it's the same thing.
my comments were confined to western red cedar. the only useful part of the bark for weaving is the inner bark "cambium" collecting this permanently maims the tree.
you said the tree has bounced back after harvest. I would strait up call you a liar, but you mentioned cork oak. and to that I would add Paper Birch, both of these trees can and often are harvested with minimal harm to the tree.(I'm sure I misunderstand you in this) for weaving: narrow strips are ideal it's actually counter productive to make wide strips as it makes it harder to process and harder to strip the bark. most of the weavers I knew were woman and somewhat frail from age... they would say I was young and strong so can pull such wide strips, that pleased them to see.
is it possible to make rectangle strips? of course but that's for specialty projects... then out comes the scaffold and specialty tools. outside the scope of my video.
the barking spud is most commonly used on downed logs... not standing trees. and it works when the timber is green or dry makes no never mind. i assume the conditioning you mean is to re-soak the timber to make the bark peel off easier.
the only reason I made this video is that my Mother asked me to help her make some baskets and place mats, which I did. I was at the time making videos of anything I found interesting... this is an obscure subject. I thought I'd help new weavers get a start. it was not my intent to make a video based encyclopedia. nor chase down every possible ramification in every statement I made.
I'm a competent weaver, not in any way excellent, like so many of the women I was privileged to work beside. it's an occupation and the level of skill attainable would blow your mind. me on the other hand : I wanted to pick berries so I made a basket. when the sun hurt my eyes I made a hat. when I needed rope I made rope. when I needed to carry water I bought a nice bottle and wrapped it in bark so it wouldn't smash, then carved a cedar cork and went about my life.
If you want to see what I am good at look at the videos called "things I've made" & "knives I made". it's just a quick overview but you'll get the idea
your channel contains no videos made by you, after that I lost interest. and did not google stalk you. you have some fabulous Asian style timber framing on your bio thing... not nearly enough pictures for my liking. you could do some videos I'm sure they would be interesting.
I have no idea where you got the idea I said I can do something I cant do or know something I don't. it's not my style to do that.
Jared
Apologies for the length...I teach and type fast...LOL!!!...and my often "blunt" nature when writing about a given subject or observation...It can be "obnoxious" I'm sure (sorry for that!) Such comments from me are not meant to be, yet rather corrective and educational. If one "goes public" then they must be accurate with a topic they share and willing to take feedback from those with more experience...I fail to validate my experience but I have been criticized for that by folks as it often can seem arrogant ( I guess?) when we list our credentials...
In your video, you have done what many are doing... which is true...That is not how it was done, nor is it correct unless just going for a "quick strip" to make something impromptu that is needed. For a real authentic harvest, it looks a lot different than in this video...and...even for a quick stripping, you have more to develop in your methodology, as do many of the Native Folks as well which often don't do a great job themselves these days...Too much lost knowledge over the last century...
I hope you get to find a teacher to work with in person someday as these skill sets seem to be important to you. Books are great but simply do not get anyone past the most basic of knowledge and little in the way of actual practical skillsets for many of the traditional arts...
As for what you are harvesting (or should be?) let's not confuse the layers...and what actually "maims" a tree...The..."Cork Camdium"..."Cortex"...and maybe into the "Primary and Secondary Phloem," only should be the goal....IF...!!!... you're getting down into the..." Vascular Camdium" and "Xeylum" that is way too deep and will harm a tree...!!!...otherwise they will grow back just fine as I stated...
Modern Stripping methods (what you show in the video) is a common practice today...That was kind of my point. What it used to be for was a "quick need" for a stip of bark in those cultures. Because the proper skills have been lost...now all that is left is the generic and impromptu methods...NOT...the correct methods at all. These " impromptu methods" are now the norm...but not the scope or proper format for the craft...that is my point as most that harvest do not know nearly enough about the tree to be doing what they are doing to them..."Ignorance is bliss" kind of thing...or..." they don't know what they don't know" and what has been forgotten...
Again...(just today for example once more as it's spring here)...barks spuds are used on standing trees too. This isn't a debate, as you are trying to suggest something you seem to have only limited "book knowledge" of...and not an apprenticeship, or decades do the craft, and related. So yes, you do use spuds (English term) on standing trees too...Is it done by most...No, you are correct...They have not been taught how and that knowledge is being lost. You would be better served to practice some form of "experimental archeology" for yourself and then ask questions of those that still have these skillsets rather than making assumptions of what you are doing as being correct or full scope in the range of practice. Yes, you can do what you are doing...is it correct or full scope in practice...NO!
I am very pleased you have made the video and I hope you explore these traditional methods! I have seen your other videos and will continue to follow along as your skills and interests grow. Thanks for sharing what you have and for the dialogue as well...!!!
Go to my playlists for videos...if you seek info, or to my "about page," for links. I do the crafts I don't make videos of them...and leave that for others (at this time ) to be TH-camrs. So, you are very correct about my own channel as I am very much a Luddite in many ways. I don't live like others in most ways...no cell phones (never had one) and without modern amenities for the most part. I have to walk to get to where there is a computer as I'm in an "Amish" farm area now and on a large farm (1200 acres) that is only "horse and bugging" with no power or running water. I have lived traditionally much of my life and only use a computer to correspond with students, write and do research...
Good luck with your venture and reach out anytime should you have a query, Jared!
@@JayCWhiteCloud For the purpose of weaving cedar bark the most valuable layer is that touching the sapwood, the next most valuable layer is the one that touches the brown corky part of the bark ( the remaining living part ) the dead bark has no value for weaving ( it is used for other things though)
sorry I don't use Latin or technical terms.
Some weaving uses all the living layers of bark, like larger baskets as it is stronger. but for hats and smaller baskets the bark is split to thin it down. a hat is to heavy to be comfortable if the strips are not split.
It is VERY "difficult" I should say painstaking, to remove all the dead brown bark from the living part. mostly the strips are thinned in half and the side containing the brown parts are saved for other projects.and the best strips are used for show-yer things like hats.
I say all this because the highly prized layers when removed, kill all future growth from where the bark was removed.
the full years worth of bark was collected in the spring/early summer,and stored for later use, mostly in the winter.
separating the layers on the tree is for all practical purposes impossible, it's hard enough doing it in your lap. no doubt veneer cutting machinery could be designed and built.
10 months of the year the bark cant be stripped off the tree by hand and if tools are used the quality would suffer remarkably.
if you have some obscure methods whereby you can get high quality weaving bark off the tree without maiming or killing the tree ( western red cedar ) no doubt it would seem like magic to every weaver I've meet so far in my life.
I don't use a cell phone ether I was raised without a TV in the home. I like the sound of the way you live your life.
I'm not easily offended your "blunt" and to the point writing style is fine by me. object criticize or YELL all you want so long as your are conveying actionable data while doing it.
you should read some of the truly horrible comments I have received/deleted on this video. Somehow it really hits a nerve with the tree huger types.
For all your long letters and list of tools I'm still at a loss as to how someone can strip the "inner living bark touching the sapwood" from the tree with out maiming it for the remainder of the trees life. Please advise.
are there any videos in your playlist with you in the video, I would like to see you doing your thing... always loved timber framing.
Jared
@@nomadicoasis9260 Hi Jared, I'll try to be shorter this time or at least address each of your points/queries directly below that follow quotes of part of your response
“...For the purpose of weaving cedar bark the most valuable layer is that touching the sapwood…sorry I don't use Latin or technical terms.”
No worries about the Latin, I shared that more for reference should you dig deeper into this subject…
Each species is different (to some degree) and what is peeled off easily doesn’t harm the tree in a permanent fashion…IF…!!!...the Xeylum and Alburnum (sapwood) are not damaged…
The challenge and issue with many harvesting bark today… are they have not been taught directly by an Elder in the proper harvest of the material… or …. by an Elder that holds solid understanding in practice and linage…
The Latin name is moot, but knowing that cutting the Xeylum-Alburnum (when the first cut is made) will cause significant damage, as this layer (and failure to recognize it!!!) is the major issue. If you cut through these layers (Xeylum-Alburnum) you have now effectively partially girdled the tree. It can no longer transport water and minerals to the crown of the tree. In “best practice” you will also not remove any of the " Vascular Camdium" as this is what feeds and is the growing part of the trunk. It annually produces new bark and new wood in response to hormones that pass down through the phloem with food from the leaves. These hormones, called “auxins”, stimulate new growth in cells. The real goal is and only should be the “Bast fiber” (This is primarily in the Phloem of most plants that have a “bast” structure) section of the "Cork Camdium"..."Cortex"...and "Primary Phloem,”...NOTHING MORE…or you are effectively slow killing a tree and would be better served just going for a “full harvest,” of all the tree and what it offers…
“...Some weaving uses all the living layers of bark…”
True, and in this context traditionally it was taken from only very large trees along with riven plank…or…the entire tree was used. The scars of this work can still be found today all along the Pacific coast with many of the wounds being centuries old. A large healthy tree, in time, can overgrow this and be subject to another harvest. One of the reasons this is called the “tree of life” in Native culture is that it can yield many materials over millennia of life and generations of humans…WHEN…treated respect and proper knowledge…
“...It is VERY "difficult" I should say painstaking, to remove all the dead brown bark from the living part…”
If the strippings are not soaked in water first, I imagine this is a very painstaking task for you. I know when, as a child, we did it, the strippings had always been soaked in either tidal pools (for certain methods I know, not the details of) or in streams under rocks. In some methods, the strippings got “fermented” (also called retting just as we do with Spanish Moss.) I still use all these methods, and more now that I have learned since then such…
If you are soaking them, perhaps it's not for a long enough time?
“...I say all this because the highly prized layers when removed, kill all future growth from where the bark was removed…”
As mentioned above, this is then an incorrect initial incision…or…a desire for other deeper material which is only done with extremely large trees. This speaks to the facts I shared in my first post about the massive disconnect that exists between what people are doing today and what many think they know, compared to the actual proven and effective traditions of our Elders that had the proper knowledge to harvest materials sustainably…
“...separating the layers on the tree is for all practical purposes impossible…”
Yes and no, but that would certainly take too long to explain in written form…
“...if tools are used the quality would suffer remarkably…”
I agree that is true…IF…you don’t know what you are doing or how to do it properly. There is an optimal time to harvest bark, that we can agree on, but any time of the year, other than when frozen solid in some areas bark can be harvested. Different seasons…different methods…
“...if you have some obscure methods whereby you can get high-quality weaving bark off the tree without maiming or killing the tree ( western red cedar ) no doubt it would seem like magic to every weaver I've met so far in my life…”
Lost and poorly practice methods would be a better description than “obscure.” These methods exist still today around the globe in many cultures that utilized these and related species. These are the same methods used for millennia, and that I learned as a child...
“...I don't use a cell phone either I was raised without a TV in the home. I like the sound of the way you live your life…”
Awesome…!!!...It's sad more folks these days can’t embrace that lifestyle as technology has taken over their lives..
“...I'm not easily offended your "blunt" and to the point writing style is fine by me…”
I’m humbled and thankful for that as too many take my manner poorly and seem to have thin skin also which just is not healthy. I like feedback, and I love it when someone (at least!!!) engages in a discussion even if our perspectives may not be fully aligned or in the process of gaining a deeper understanding…Blessings for that!
“...you should read some of the truly horrible comments I have received/deleted on this video…”
Sadly, Jared, I have seen and experienced such disrespect all too common these days on TH-cam, and why my channel (at this time) does not have videos of my own work. I don’t have time to mentor and teach, as well as deal with such unnecessary abuse from the ignorant masses and “armchair experts” that are out on the internet…
I mentor a number of folks with channels and why I don’t really need one yet with my own videos. Mr. Chickadee (as an excellent example) reached out years ago to learn more and tells me of the abuse he receives daily from those that have to comment but have zero knowledge of the traditional crafts…
“...Somehow it really hits a nerve with the tree huger types…”
LOL…(not really funny…but…LOL)...I know this literally first had as a working Arborist when I was still working daily in the business!!! I have had my truck tires slashed more than once, and even police called on me or me on them for threatening my life. I could recount many such incidences that would fill many pages and display a level of ignorance that would (and is laughable) if it was not so sad also…
Frankly, even in the style, you practice now, for its limited scope and purpose, I would rather see you do more videos experimenting with these methods as we have discussed them including riving off planks, learning to climb and rig in both modern and traditional ways (I’m sure you seen those methods in your books!)
To HELL with the “tree huggers” that have never actually embraced a forest or a tree. They have never learned the true history or culture some of us have with them…used them…slept in them even for that matter…LOL…!!!...So please do make more videos!!!
Bottom line…KILL SOME TREES…but do it respectfully, document it well, and explain what you are trying to do and learn so these methods are not lost again or forever. You have the platform to do this, you have the resource, the creator brought my eyes to view the video and now our paths have crossed. You're going to accidentally (and intentionally!) kill trees. That is to be expected…Now learn to make complete use of all the trees, and/or facilitate getting those materials to those that can use them.
“...For all your long letters and list of tools I'm still at a loss as to how someone can strip the "inner living bark touching the sapwood... Please advise.”
That is a more than fair assessment on your part and why I’m spending the latter half of my life teaching and writing books and papers. Words on screen nor paper alone are enough to convey all the subtle details, and there is, of course, damage to some of these methods. I don’t mind that, but rather documenting well the method and outline what is happening and what could be improved or better done by anyone that is trying to learn.
Overall, I like your videos and want to see more. If I didn’t I would have been even blunter and a lot less pedantic than I have been…LOL!!!
If I could get out to your area sometime, I would love to do so and perhaps that may happen someday if the Creator sets me on a path that way once more. In the meantime, you do have the books and you most certainly can reach out to many any time you wish! I may not always be able to respond quickly but I will in time, assuming I have not “kicked the bucket,”...LOL!!!
“...are there any videos in your playlist with you in the video, I would like to see you doing your thing... always loved timber framing…”
I will keep my eye out for any new or current experimental archeological work in this area and share it with you immediately. On that last note, reach out to some local colleges with these types of research programs and stimulate a conversation! I know they are out there!!!
Blessings,
j
@@JayCWhiteCloud OK I think there was a subtle difference in our terms... the layers of "Bark" most prized are: vascular cambium and secondary phloem.
vascular cambium, this stuff when removed never grows back.or makes new bark ever. not that I've ever seen.
secondary phloem, the bark may- to- likely will regrow good as new
the sapwood "secondary xylem" will continue to conduct sap till it get plugged up and wants to turn into heartwood. in your (i assume) words- the tree will continue to live and grow.
trees live with extensive damage... the bark sometimes will roll over growing in from the sides and seal off the wound made by stripping bark. but the sapwood usually dies and rots away without ever growing new bark on the wound section.
I get the feeling I'm not going to be teaching you with this comment.
stripped bark if let dry never regains it former workabillity some but not enough to make it exceptable practice to do this. the dead outer bark needs to be removed on the spot and sucks for you if its a hot day. keep it wet and work fast. don't harvest when in drought. let it rain before harvesting.
once the outer bark has been removed it can be stored for later use , ie. making the strips. just re-soak for 4 hours or more, to long and it will mould or discolour.
I'm tired have a good night I truly enjoyed this conversation
Blast the tree huggers. they buy toilet paper and lumber or writing paper and then point there fingers and sneer at the loggers they just hired. not fond of clear-cuts AT ALL.
Peace on earth has not been an accurate term since the Garden of Eden.some people are so out of touch with the world as it actually is.
I think the average beaver kills more trees in it's life than I have in my weaving "carrier" just for a bit of perspective.
I'll reread your comment tomorrow.
PS Gullets, Bark Bar Rollers- definition. didn't know how they pertained to bark harvest. but now i assume you were referring to woodwork in general.
glut is a big wooden wedge. and Bar Rollers are for dropping in the split when riving of planks from a living tree, from the top down.
I'm thinking Gullet is not a glut.
Bark Bar Rollers neither myself nor Google has any idea what that is.
That's why I confined my snarky remarks to Barn spud... LOL
Jared
@@nomadicoasis9260 Hey Jared,
"... the layers of "Bark" most prized are: vascular cambium and secondary phloem..."
!!!...Correct!
"...vascular cambium, this stuff when removed never grows back.or makes new bark ever...the bark sometimes will roll overgrowing in from the sides and sealing off the wound made by stripping bark. but the sapwood usually dies and rots away without ever-growing new bark on the wound section."
Incorrect...and...correct
Or not in the sense you are thinking of how a tree heals which is nothing like that of human tissue. Take for example when a limb is CORRECTLY removed from a tree. The "limb collar" must be left in place. Though the direct tissue under this is of both sap and hart wood tissues...the outer rim where the Xylem and related "healing tissue" still are will in time "cause over the cut wound fully and completely...
With a "stripping would" as found in bark removal, lightning strikes, wind event damage, etc. this healing process may take decades of even a venture or more depending on the severity of the wound...
You not "seeing it" is not surprising at all since you are measuring your understanding from a "human perspective" and not from the "tree's perspective"...more importantly the tree's reality...
If the harvest is not too invasive...it will heal...and the "overgrowing in from the sides," is the indicator of this. The sapwood does not die...nor should it "rot away" unless the harvest was done poorly...It will be caused over and new sapwood with form in this area. This is called an "inclusion." In the harvest of poor quality, rot may issue and an "inclusion canker" could well form later killing the tree needlessly...
"...I get the feeling I'm not going to be teaching you with this comment..."
I'm not sure of that Jared...LOL...I have been working in the tree industry, on and off since 1973...and climbed my first Pacific Giant to sleep in with my Mother in 1967! The number of trees I have climbed and/or worked on is now pushing 100,000! If you count the traditional craftwork, logging, and operating different sawmills it's well over that number significantly...
"...stripped bark if let dry never regains it former workability...some but not enough to make it acceptable practice to do this. "
Incorrect...
If done correctly it most certainly does regain pliability. In some methods, it MUST be dried first and in others, it must be retted...
I have reconstituted several bast fibers types (including those of the Cypress family) decades after harvest. However, the first harvest has to be done properly and those fibers must also be treated properly, and there are many methods and solutions for doing so. If your statement was even remotely true the Smithsonian's examples (no in the Native American Museum) would not be pliable or supple after centuries of storage in some of their examples of this work...
Again, we are getting into "I think" concepts and notions based on both poor initial understanding of what the traditional methods are and what they sadly have become. I have often held classes of this and different forms to have Elders walk over to me and ask where I received my knowledge and depth of understanding. Many have been quite shocked about how little they understood after a presentation...
"...the dead outer bark needs to be removed on the spot..."
Incorrect...it does not at all and one of the biggest disconnects I see in the craft of harvesting, yet 90% or more are under this false assumption...or...are just impatient and don't wish to take the time to take the bark through all the proper stages of processing...
"...I'm tired have a good night I truly enjoyed this conversation..."
Me too Jared, and I hope in time I see some other videos with some "relearning" of methods once more common there in your videos as you expand these skill sets you clearly show an aptitude for...
"...Blast the tree huggers. they buy toilet paper and lumber or writing paper and then point their fingers and sneer at the loggers they just hired. not fond of clear-cuts AT ALL...."
AMEN...!!!...and through in the Vegan bleeding heart "nitwits" that have zero clue of the actual "circle of life" and being part of it...
"...PS Gullets, Bark Bar Rollers- definition..."
I'm going to pull a "book list" together and send you a link that has a lot of this in it. As our conversations expand and you have a direct question, feel free to ask them!!! Again, so much of what is "being done" in the world of Pacific Coast crafts is but a very pale version of what once was...Bark Harvesting is just the tip of the Iceberg of lost (or poorly practiced) skill sets happening today...
And yes, those tools (and many more!!!) apply to not only green woodworking in other cultures but in the Pacific Northwest traditions also. I'm sure you have the book "Cedar: Tree of Life to the Northwest Coast Indians," by Hilary Stewart? This is an excellent tomb in many ways and well documents many (not all) of the tools used including...Gullets/Gluts, Bark Bar Rollers (also used in riving work), etc.
"...glut is a big wooden wedge. and Bar Rollers are for dropping in the split when riving of planks from a living tree, from the top down..."
Basically...yes
"...I'm thinking Gullet is not a glut..."
In English, I have seen both terms used interchangeably in historical documents. They go by other names (of course) in different cultures but are employed in the same fashion...
"...Bark Bar Rollers neither myself nor Google has any idea what that is..."
LMAO...!!!...Poor Google does not even come close to having everything mapped out and recorded (yet) or at least not in English. More than have my research has to be done in other languages just to get the esoteric information I am looking for on topics...
Till Later,
j
that tree won't survive.
It's been a few years, it's doing fine. Here's a tragic thing about life... When were hungry we kill things. When we want to cloth our self we kill things. Unless it's a petroleum product then it just kills things in a different way. I'm not happy about this. Perhaps you've found a better way?
@@nomadicoasis9260 well, if you put it this way - you don't need to kill a tree for doing something that you don't need, just for a hobby. And no - you don't have to kill something to make clothes. We do not live in mediaeval times.
@@Sheepdog1314 I was referring to killing cotton plants or hemp or flax . I don't see a difference between that and cedar trees, killing plants is required. as for just a hobbie I made a cupple hats to keep the sun out of my eyes. a few berry picking baskets which saw regular use every year, baskets for other things. rope ect. very practical necessary items. when you go to the Big Box store and buy these very same items there is someone on the other end killing plants to make your things for you.there is no difference between you and me it's just that you pay someone to do it for you.
I think the issue is that you over-harvested that tree, not that stripping bark will kill a tree. It was a little excessive, less would have ensured it's survival.
why would you do that to a live tree.....you killed the tree for sure
actually if you harvest 30% or less of the bark the tree survives a long long time. when using natural materials there is always a cost. and synthetic materials of course have a different kind of a cost.
@@nomadicoasis9260 This is the way my Native G Grandfather harvested bark from trees, never stripping it completely so that the tree would survive. Today most people cut the tree down to get the bark. It was really nice to see how it use to be done. BTW, my G Grandmother made all kinds of beautiful baskets and my G Grandfather made canoes. That's how they made their living.
@@kikitymeck I don't think I ever made a dollar from weaving but I've made lots of nice things from it: wrapped water bottles,baskets ,rope.hats. it's a nice material to work with. thanks for watching.
@@kikitymeck North West BC FN? I'm Haida :D I used to collect bark with my Uncle when I was a kid. ^_^
I see these videos of cypress bark harvest and it often really disturbs me as I can see that the "traditional ways" are either not being taught properly or the person doing the job (butchering the process quite often!!!) has just "reinvented" how they "think" it should be done. Even many First Nations People have lost the full skills of proper bark harvesting and thus do more damage to trees than is necessary, and/or don't get full sheeting off as was traditionally done.
If a plate/sheet is started and the goal is 300 mm wide (or wider) depending on what a given tree can safely yield, then there should be little loss of that from the beginning if the proper traditional tools and methods are employed. There was entirely too much "handwork" being demonstrated in this video and no application of the traditional harvest tools such as (in English)...Bark Spuds, Gullets, Bark Bar Rollers, etc...
I only post here for other readers NOT TO FOLLOW...the methods shown in this video but rather to learn the proper ways to harvest bark properly rather than harm more trees...
It's called a bark spud it's got nothing to do with a barn, not required in the spring not possible to peel bark in other seasons. not possible to use effectively on a standing tree.
Gullets, Bark Bar Rollers. your getting overly complicated. it's a simple processes, the natives used a chisel and mallet . there is a lot to know in order to do it well. but tools are the least of your worries.
the bark always peels in a triangle no exceptions. (it does appear to be run out but it follows the grain) not in a thousand years will you get a rectangle.
peeling bark ALWAYS maims the tree no exceptions.
I wish you great success in your carrier as an armchair expert.and when you've done this a bunch of times come back to my video, you'll see it's just another boring day at work. not remarkable no great mysteries to be found. just solid advice that if followed will get you through the processes in a tolerable manner.
Regards Jared
@@nomadicoasis9260 I responded in a full view post above...Thank you again for responding!