▼EXPAND FOR TOOL LINKS and INFO▼ Watch Next: Hater's Guide to SawStop - th-cam.com/video/H_P4i4ge28E/w-d-xo.htmlsi=436qclyAG4-6x-RB Tools: SawStop Table Saw I Own - amzn.to/3talKAo SawStop Jobsite Saw - amzn.to/46o3O3A Saw Blade I Use - lddy.no/1hzxx 📲 Never miss another tool deal. Sign up for my Tool Deals SMS Alerts - NOTE: I text out tool deals so you don’t miss any! text DEALS to 1 (731) 207-7151 Be sure to add DEALS to your text to me so you get added to the proper list. You can also click this link my.community.com/731woodworks Important to add the word DEALS to the text! 🇺🇸 Join the Tubafour Nation on Patreon to get an exclusive Tubafour Nation sticker, access to exclusive member-only behind-the-scenes videos, member-only livestreams, discounts, and other cool member-only perks! www.patreon.com/731woodworks (If you use one of these Amazon and other affiliate links, I may receive a commission) Some other useful links: Daily Tool Deals on my website: www.731woodworks.com/tool-deals Subscribe to our email Newsletter: mailchi.mp/7e44c16eefdc/731-woodworks-email-newsletter Check out our easy-to-follow woodworking plans: www.731woodworks.com/store Outlaw's Board Butter - So Good it Should be Outlawed: www.731woodworks.com/store/boardbutter
You are correct, but a non-publication request is not commonly issued. There must be a serious reason (e.g. national security) not to publish.@@path4061
Fabulous video!! As a retired attorney but having no expertise in patent law this was a joy to watch. Even in retirement I try to learn something new every day. This more than made my quota!
sawstop is a predatory scummy company and shouldn't have that broad of a patent, or at the least, they should be made to offer a reasonable percentage for other saws to use the tech. truly evil company that has caused millions of unnecessarily amputated limbs.
This video has exceeded my expectations. Like your guest who is a patent attorney who wants to talk about his hobby in work's context I'm an info deeeb who was also excited about the topic... this was a fascinating discussion. Well done! 👊
This was an excellent conversation and Michael did the subject much justice... thanks for having him on your channel. The U.S. patent system is actually one of the unique (at the time of implementation) cornerstones that set the U.S. apart in the field of tech development from the rest of the world, catapulting it far ahead of other countries. Having a patent has been wrongly bashed as a greedy move, when in fact it was intended to 1) encourage innovation 2) allow the expense of developing the tech and then bringing it to market to be recouped AND rewarded. AND another beautiful aspect to the patent system is that it's limited, so the patent holder cannot sit on the tech in perpetuity, but it gets released to others so that access becomes cheaper for everyone (at least it's more likely to). My late uncle was a prominent patent atty. in Seattle for ~50 years, from the 1960's to the early 2000's. You just earned another subscriber, but NOT due to your goofy, click-bait expressions on your thumbnails... you're better than that. 😉
The patent process is actually in the US Constitution and was a great innovation for the day. The patent type that is most abused is the business process patent. Most of those are contra to the original idea of patents. I have a friend that designs electronic equipment. He had a version of one of his products made in China. The knockoffs, which were made on the same assembly line using his design but with much cheaper components, were available within days of his high quality product. That was the one and only time he sent stuff to China. He’s stuff is now built in California at a higher price but without cheap knockoffs.
I can confirm that this indeed happens, also for (very) large companies outsourcing production, but typically owning the specific tools (moulds) for their design.
BPP's are, of course, the most difficult to enforce, and lack of geographic proximity (not to mention an unfriendly legal system in the infringer's geographic location) makes it all the more difficult. And it requires deep, deep pockets to pursue an infringement claim even in the friendliest legal environment.
I would bet that every top end company Dewalt, Milwaukee, Makita, already have some version of the SawStop already made. They are just waiting for patents to end.
The patent does not stop a company from making a saw that stops safely. It is the technology that it makes the saw stop that. Just like the seat belt, any car manufacturer could have made a seat belt. It was the technology that locked, that was patent. You could not patent a strap across someone's chest. If these companies you listed had the ability to create a system in which stopped a sawblade, such as the saw stop, they would Have already
@@toriless Reconsider your remark. We're all here @731Woodworks to respectfully enjoy ourselves in good company; you're still invited. Unless you've hit your head reaching for low-hanging fruit too many times.
One of the most informative Woodworking videos I've watched on TH-cam in quite a while! Thank you BOTH for doing this! PS: I own a SawStop and have the first Blade/Cartridge weld combination mounted on the wall where I can see it every time I work with the Saw! I was fortunate it was a cheap blade!
I’m pretty convinced I am not the only person in North America that is sick and tired of junky knockoffs that you cannot get repair parts for when they inevitably conk out prematurely. Thanks for the work you guys do.
Very good non-woodworking, woodworking video! A lot of info, will probably be back several times to watch it again! Like everyone else I've been hearing for the last several years about the patents are about to expire on the Sawstop but here we are heading towards the end of 2023 and most of them seem to be hanging on. Interesting about the US patent for the domino too. There almost has to be one hiding out or there would be a knock-off on the market a long time ago.
I'm guessing there is no USA patent on the Domino because of the cost and time required to get it. Festool just decided it was not worth it. Because to make a Domino requires a lot of money and machinery expertise. Its not simple. And any patent infringer would be limited to the USA only. Because Festool does have a patent on the Domino in Europe. I assume the Domino is only sold in rich parts of the world. The profitability for making a Domino copy and only being able to sell it in the USA only would not work. The Domino is $1000 or $1500. A knockoff sold only in the USA would need to be sold at half price lets say. $500 or $750. Are there enough sales in the USA at that reduced copy price to make it profitable for the maker? Probably not. Its not like there are millions and millions of people in the USA who would buy the copy Domino. Of the 330 million people in the USA, there are not that many woodworkers really. 1 in 100? 1 in 200? 1 in 300? So there are maybe 1 million woodworkers in the USA. How many of those would buy a Domino at any price? They already bought a Festool Domino. How many of the ones left will buy a Domino copy at half price?
@@DamianDArienzo But right now Felder is only offering its safety saw device on its very top end saws. Not the "cheap" Felder models or the extremely poor man's Hammer brand. So it will be many many years before it gets more adopted.
Matt, this is a great video. Keep up with the great videos and thanks again to Michael Steele for providing his time and expertise in this area. Hopefully, other saw manufacturers will figure out a way to use this technology once the patents expire.
Great conversation. Thanks to both of you for producing that video. I own a SawStop and more Festools than I should. The logic that works for me to invest in a tool like them is - "this is the last tool like that I will ever need to buy".
Never said they were the best. The main problem I have with Festool is they cater to their main customers professional, mobile carpenters not hobbyists with a shop. So, everyone can make up their own mind - if don't think they are worth don't buy them.@@frijoli9579
It is a shame that Bosch lost their case. I have a Reaxx table saw. I tripped it one time. Not even a nick. Took longer to read the manual about how to flip the cartridge around than it did to actually make the change. Of course, no damage to the blade.
The only thing they did that I disagreed with in protection was going after the Bosch saw. Way different technology not even close to being the same. I understand they could because that’s the law, I don’t understand why the law is written that way.
@@Andrew_Sherman Totally agree! I'm still bitter about it haha! I was so ready to buy the Bosch when it came out it was a game changer. I think it scared SawStop because they created something that didn't destroy the blade. Which killed another revenue source SawStop has (the carts (and blades if people buy their blades from them too) ) - I really hope Bosch brings it back, coupled with a rack and pinion fence they would put a big rift in the jobsite / portable saw market.
@@MemelordSupremeYou are right. For awhile I told myself I would not buy a sawstop because of their actions against Bosch. The Bosch saw was a game changer in that the blade isn't destroyed and there is no cartridge to replace. I ultimately bought a used sawstop because it was priced right. I would not have been able to afford it otherwise. Getting back to your point, when a company has a monopoly on safety, everyone loses. You could lose your fingers in a table saw accident or lose a lot of your hard owned cash.
Really awesome video!! Have a few patents myself…. Your lawyer friend was absolutely right. And sounds like a stud patent attorney. Badass!! I cannot thank you enough. I’d watch a show you guys digging through woodworking and tool patents and future projects… let’s start a woodworking R&D facility!!!!?!??
Great job on this one.... I'm not even sure why TH-cam recommended it, but that was an outstanding video. Attorney Steele was great. I lost the timestamp, but he did touch on something an insider had told me.... Uhhh, hypothetically, I mean... I can't discuss this... But my understanding (hypothetically) was that the SawStop people initially, the plan was to license it, or sell it outright, to a big took company, like Delta, or whoever.... But nobody would buy it. So they said fine, and just started their own tool company.... So I was pleased that Attorney Steele did confirm that..... so I feel pretty good about his research... My only nitpick might have been this..... In the modern world, today, 2023, I know that competing products are sold in some overseas places.... So clearly their patents don't reach everywhere.... Or, they have determined that the cost to fight would be too high....... So I think that yes, when that patent expires, I think all the other big players literally will have the trucks rolling the night before, to put that product in the stores on 6AM following patent expiration..... The other thing I would point out is, and I think Attorney Steele kind of walked around this issue talking about liability, and maybe he was uncomfortable, or maybe it was beyond the scope... But today, if you own a cabinet shop, and you have employees running table saws.... In many areas of the USA, many areas, you can't get workmans comp insurance, unless you throw out all your saws, and bring in SawStop.... These insurers, and look, they have Attorneys too, okay, I'm sure they see that okay hold on, if someone gets hurt, and goes to court.... SawStop EXISTS, right??? Why didn't the employer provide SawStop..... That is hard to defend in court, obviously.... You could have provided this much safer tool, and you didn't, because of money..... So yeah.... When those patents expire, I expect that every saw sold will have some form of blade safety on it..... Anyways, great job....
Since you have the festool, it's common practice to place patent numbers on the label or in the documentation, so you might find the us patent number there.
Mat, You have come a long way since you started with your channel. I have to say your doing great, You are a real go getter. Your mind just doesnt stop. Do you have time to even sleep.? What your doing takes alot of time and work. You have worked hard for what you have and its only going to get better. Your everywhere on the internet. Good luck with your channel and I can see its going to be a great success. maybe the number one woodworking channel on the internet with millions of followers. Your doing it right Mat.
Matt, I gotta say this. I believe your future may be podcasting for woodworkers. You have the voice, the passion, the equipment, and the creativity to go big-time podcasts. Many times while woodworking I will be listening to a LivingWaters podcast thru my noise canceling earmuffs. I never planned to listen to this entire video but the two of you captivated me. Thank you so much for all you do in bringing woodworking alive.
Mr Gass lobbied the government to require HIS device in all tablesaws when manufacturers didn't want to buy his technology. I will never buy a Sawstop for this reason alone. I will wait until the patent expires and buy another brand.
Matt, thanks for making this video. It was quite interesting. It’s always interesting listening to someone that is very knowledgeable in their field, even patent law, Lol.
I saw a video on the BladeStop saw today. If that company can put their technology in a table saw that hobby woodworkers can afford, the BladeStop saw will leave SawStop in the dust. For starters, when the BladeStop senses skin, the motor stops spinning immediately AND the blades retracts into the cabinet and below the table surface. As soon as you clear the area in question, you can turn the saw back on and continue with your saw action. No expensive parts to replace. Personally, I think BladeStop company will be a game changer if they can put this technology into an affordable saw.
An interesting topic like this is the multitool. Originally patented as a cast saw. Before the patent ran out, companies had their version ready to hit the market as soon as it expired. Tool companies will have their version of sawstop ready the day it ends
when he said the inventor was a patent attorney himself i smiled ear to ear as i understood why he said it was the most thorough hed ever seen. just an example of someone that is damn good at their endeavors. everyone should strive to be that way, to excel beyond any expectations. tldr: be the best you and dont stop till you reach that level in which people start talking about your creations like their on jerry springer lol.
@@darinpringle5611 Honestly if it can save many lives from changing due to an accident, I will give it to the world for free as long as no one tries to patent it themselves and they credit me as the creator.
Interesting video. I first saw the Saw Stop at the Atlanta IWF in 2000 and I assumed that all manufacturers would shortly lease rights to saw stop. Much to my surprise nobody would lease the saw stop. My understanding of their reasoning was that everyone assumes risk when running a table saw. But if a safety device is placed on the saw and fails the cost of the lawsuit would be tremendous. So the cost of one saw stop failure resulting in injury would be more expensive then the cost of hundreds of accidents resulting in loss of fingers on a saw without a safety device.
Wikipedia says that Sawstop wanted to license the technology, but the other companies wanted to manufacture the devices themselves while Sawstop assumed the product liability. ST would not bear the liability unless they manufactured it.
Another take I heard from someone at sawstop was they were in talks with Delta and Ryobi but those company lawyers pointed out they would create liability by having the tech and not deploying across the lineup.
Per Grizzly tools founder Shiraz Balolia, when Sawstop was trying to find someone to license it, he approached them and they turned him down on the basis they only wanted to work with a major brand in order to give them more credibility.
I highly recommend getting a patent agent or attorney if you want to get a patent. The process is complex, and it can be very expensive. The prospects of being able to assert your patent against infringers, if you are a solo inventor or small business, are slim. This is only worse if your patent is of low quality (hence needing the services of an agent or attorney).
I really try to buy authentic products as often as I reasonably can afford, especially USA made. However, the companies need to price them reasonably, as well. It's funny that Woodpeckers was mentioned. They essentially ripped off A Glimpse Inside's design for a orbital sander holder, that he manufactures as a small business, and wouldn't you know, it is the one Woodpecker tool that is priced competitively. It costs less than some of their speed squares and T-squares. I don't begrudge SawStop, Woodpeckers or Festool for making the money they deserve, but I do feel like they can do more to meet their paying customers half way, at times. Great video, Matt!
Actually, the Craftsman model no. TJZ10/3, was being redesigned to accept this technology. They pulled the saw from the market. It was supposed to have been built at the Texas plant that closed. They may well release it after the patent expires. Great video. Thank you for sharing. Everyone stay safe, happy and healthy. From Henrico County Virginia
Wouldn't surprise me. I wish the video answered this, but my understanding was that large companies start R&D on products 2-5 years before patents expire. I don't know if the patent would prevent them from doing R&D or just from selling the finished product.
The risk of being sued for a product they made and sold decades ago caused a lot of harm to the makers of small airplanes. As technology advanced, survivors said the manufacturers should have recalled their older planes and installed the upgrades that are put into all their new ones. But people buy and fly airplanes that are 20-50 years old...a long time for a company to be at risk. The effect was a 10-year period in which the companies all stopped making airplanes (Cessna, Piper, Beech). I can imagine something similar happening to the makers of table saws.
There's a subtle, but important difference. Aircraft come under what's called special liability. The theory being that a plane falling out of the sky can cause property damage or death or injury to someone that never was a beneficiary of the existence of that aircraft. This also applies to other things like backyard swimming pools and boilers etc (maybe cranes?). This also means that the aircraft manufacturer can be held liable for "all foreseeable misuse". Essentially, even when there was pilot error held to be 90% at fault, or bad maintenance, the manufacturers could be on the hook for 100% of a judgement if there was a tiny amount of possibility that a safer design, material or process could have been found.
This was a very interesting conversation and appreciate the insight of Mr. Steele, the one comment I'll make is that in saying SawStop (Steve Gass) tried to license the SS technology and companies declined, you skip over the fact that companies declined because Mr. Gass because he was demanding high royalty rates based upon the retail price of the saw (which were to increase even more if he managed to get enough industry adoption), not because the companies were unwilling to pay for the tech. Further, once Mr. Gass determined he wasn't going to get existing companies to pay his desired licensing fees and founded his own company, he then went to the legislature to try to attempt to mandate the use of his product to effectively remove the competition for his products (while also very actively suing anyone that tried to offer competing safety technology), so while I agree SS's actions don't meet the traditional definition of a patent troll, I do feel Mr. Gass has abused his knowledge as a patent attorney to manipulate the system to his benefit and thus why SS gets referred to as patent trolls.
I like the idea of a blade that would drop down and away without the destruction of blade and safety device. It would also simplify the use of a dado blade. I own a sawstop portable saw and it made me really nervous when I was sawing some very wet pressure treated lumber.
I’m a Shopsmith user and TH-cam creator and at 15:20 Michael made the same point that we discussed in a video on my channel. Shopsmith tested the concept of braking the tool quickly and it just about flipped over, which would be far more risky. Fun chat, gents. Scott
Thanks for the insight on what the real story. I was a "SawStop Hater" before I saw your explanation. I don't feel as sorry now for the companies that turned down the technology, and then cry about it when SawStop did all the effort to bring the product to fruition. Once the patent expires, you will see this tech in all saws and, if not, the Government will make them do it. Whether it's right or wrong, you know that is what will happen. It will be a benefit to the consumer, and maybe some company will prove a technology that will make sense for low-end saw systems. It will also maybe put pressure on SawStop to reduce the price on their quality, but over-priced saws (yes, I said it - SawStop saws now cost 2x a comparable saw from another company). That 2x price cannot be just because of their safety system. Also, shame on our Government for not protecting all-American companies. BTW, love your tee-shirt, Matt. :)
Felder PCS which came out awhile back and this Altendorf system are already working designs. To my knowledge SawStop has not filled any infringement with these systems. Felder might even be selling it in North America already. I'm not sure about Altendorf. My biggest complaint with SawStop is the virtually no effort to improve the design in the 20+ years the safety system has been around.
Altendorf is a totally different system using cameras and high tech. SS didn’t file an infringement suit bc it would have been pointless - there is no similarity whatsoever and they know it.
Great interview and nice overview of patents, especially the "look" of a product with all of the knockoffs. Alterndorf's technology is great but it would be very difficult to scale down - this would be great for industrial purposes, but cameras aren't cheap and the mechanism needs to be sorted out.
The difference between the Reaxx system and the SawStop system is that SawStop system destroyed the blade to get the spinning blade to stop, costing lots of time and money (estimated at about $350 to replace the blade and reset it) while the Reaxx system used igniters, similar the proven ones in airbag systems, to shoot the spinning blade, in about a ten thousandth of a second, to a safe place below the surface of the saw, where the spinning was stopped non-destructively. The Reaxx saw from Bosch cost about $2,500 less than the cheapest SawStop machine, and the stopped Bosch blade could be re-set and re-used immediately, since its saw-stopping device came with 2 charges, at a cost of less than $20 for a new 2-charge cartridge. After the blade stopped, you just turned the cartridge around in its mount and continued safely using the Reaxx saw after the blade was re-set.
My uncle created and runs a complete custom wood manufacturing shop with many employees and specializes in custom mid to high end cabinets and anything wood. But when he opened up his newest shop, put in saw stop becuase of decades working in wood manufacturing has seen so many hands and fingers lost in a split second. For his employees safety and insurance, put in all saw stop.
Sawstop spent a lot of money after other companies turned them down trying to get federal regulators to force competitors to put in the Sawstop technology. When that failed, they continued building a good product and enforcing their patents. I've never thought much of them trying to get federal regulators to force the technology on people.
Thank You for doing this video!!! Well done. One thing I wish you had asked him, is how much does a patent application cost and how much the process could run $$ wise. I know it probably varies but how and why.
EurekaZone EZ Smart was my favorite track saw system. Many innovative patented features. Hard to find now, as of 2020 it looks like they were reopening at a new location. They had some really cool stuff.
I agree with the attorney that companies will be forced to adopt this technology once the patents expire. I view this as unfortunate. I believe consumers should be able to choose a saw that does not have the technology and to be bound by the consequences of that choice. Besides the higher price of the saw, there are other costs associated with the technology that I would prefer to avoid. The brake triggers when the blade comes in contact with flesh, but it also triggers when the wood is too wet or the blade hits metal. That is, the technology is subject to false positives -- which can be fairly expensive events. To prevent these false positives, the user can turn off the saw's brake. This creates two risks. The first is the user will forget to turn the brake off. The second is the user will forget to turn the brake back on. (The saw will automatically reset the brake to on after the saw has been turned off, which mitigates -- but does not eliminate -- this second risk.) In my shop, I view the costs associated with these two risks outweigh the benefit that the technology provides. I would feel differently if the saw were to be used in a school, or if a lot of people besides myself used my saw. I understand that the technology could save me from an injury. I also understand that the risk of such an injury -- given my years of daily use of a table saw in a furniture mill and my responsibility in teaching my co-workers how to use the saw safely -- is lower than the average DIY woodworker. I also know that I would simply forget to turn off the brake a few times each year. Shouldn't I be able to assume the risk of injury in exchange for avoiding the hassle and expense of having to replace the brake a few times each year? I freely admit that my own assessment of the risks may be inaccurate. The risks that I might injure myself might be far higher than I think they are and that the 'best' choice for me would be a saw with this technology. My point is I should be the one who gets to make that call. I don't want the regulators or the courts to force a technology onto me that I do not want nor think that I need.
@@toriless As I said, this should be your call. However, you are factually incorrect. Virtually all table saw blades used today are rated for use with wood AND non-ferrous metals, such as aluminum. I don’t cut metals on my table saw often, but I do cut them a few times each year. YMMV.
I would love to see a next genrration of this tech. One that doesnt kill blades or require a new expensive cartridge that costs more that high end blades. At least on an industrial level to keep shops running and turn aww craps into woopsies.
As far as liability nothing stopped a user from buying the more expensive saw. The user chose the saw that they chose. And one could also argue that there is more profit (per item) on a more expensive saw. Anyone remember the year that chainsaws could be bought with and without the chain brake? The ones without flew off the shelves and when they were gone you had to buy one with the brake. An attorney could argue the user placed a low value on safety in the first place.
I went through the patent registration process with the USPTO in connection with a robotic device. The entire process took 14 months and $25,000 in attorney's fees. FYI
Late to the party, This was a really interesting video and gave a lot of insights into how patents work. re tool collecting, my problem is I need a garage so we can regain some space in the house, I think the only place I don't have any tools stashed is the bathroom, hmmm maybe I can make an over bath cabinet that is waterproof to store some in lol
so is the conclusion from this discussion that I should stop waiting and just buy a SawStop saw? I feel like I've heard the same thing for the past 2 years that SawStop patent was done and there will be a new wave of saws at better prices. To be fair, I'm also hesitant because I can't decide if what I really need is a track saw or a table saw. I have a crumby old Craftsman table saw that I use that feels more dangerous than worth it, so I end up not using it. I don't have a track saw, but it seems like it's a better solution for breaking down sheet goods. I think I need both.
Ryobi was sued at least twice for not putting the "flesh sensing" technology in their saws when it was available for license. They paid out at least 3.5 million in damages.
The weird/interesting part about "flesh sensing" is that in its core is trivial from electronics stand point of view. Any hobbyist can fabricobble it on a bread board (w/o looking at existing art), you can buy one from an offshore store for a dollar. Heck, your phone has lots of flesh sensing each time you tap it. Just no body has thought to patent/consider it obvious when it comes to wood working.
Hey Matt!! I don’t know if anyone brought up the Felder saw that also has a CS system as well. Its been out for a while now as well. THEN let us not forget that there is an alternative to all of these systems which, as you well know, is light years ahead of this 1800's technology...The Altendorf HandGuard saw...😊😊
the longest sawstop continuation patent expires in may 2026. after that, its over. reaxx was found to not be found infringing on sawstop patents 7,225,712 and 7,600,455 so sawstop isn't the invulnerable entity they are portrayed to be.
I've had extensive conversations with Steve Gass about the legal aspects of his patents & how they would interact with his marketing plans back when the SawStop was brand new. (BTW, Steve Gass is an absolutely brilliant person! He has both a PhD in Physics & a JD in patent law. (this wasn't Steve's explanation) So why didn't saw companies license the sawstop technology when it was first offered? Their argument was all table saws came with cheap plastic blade guards. Of course every woodworker would remove the guard. And that gave the manufacturer a 100% effective defense to an injury claim. They could say that they supplied a blade guard that would have protected the user's hand, but they chose to remove it. However, if they installed a saw stop system & it failed they'd be 100% responsible! So adding a saw stop safety would both raise their price & increase their legal exposure to being sued. That would be a bad business decision!
Been a professional woodworker since the 70's, when SS came out I actually thought about investing in the technology. That was until I learned that the inventor was trying to get legislation passed to mandate use of his product. Never! I'll now go to my grave not supporting this carpetbagger. I moved to the European sliding table saw and power feeders to protect my appendages rather than support a lawyer who tries to get government to mandate profits for his invention.
That Was a really great video. I would also agree with the lawyer in regards to the knock off tools.. I get woodpecker tools are a bit expensive , but if everyone buys the knock offs Woodpecker will cease to innovate and come out with cool and unique tool options.
Some are reasonable. I've got the cabinet shelf pin jig for $300 Cdn. It is very well made out of phenolic. I just wish their giant squares were a bit cheaper.
interesting discussion. Wonder of these same arguments could be applied to gun safety? Electronic locks -- like locking your phone against unwarranted use -- and things like that?
I remember seeing a trade show TH-cam video (this year) with a cabinet table saw with the blade drop technology along with a sliding deck. It was way out of my price range (at the moment) and larger than I currently have space for, but it was way cool!
Great video! I don’t understand why people are so against a company having a great invention that is designed and built in the US? They are expensive saws with a genius feature but a high quality cabinet saw will cost a lot of money whether it is Sawstop or not.. I can appreciate that it is a safety feature that everyone should have access to but there are a lot of machines in a woodshop that will change your life. Using a table saw without the technology will not inevitably lead to injury. Having a sawstop will not protect you from having a brutal injury on a jointer.
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So... can we still get the new parts/ brake part??
You are correct, but a non-publication request is not commonly issued. There must be a serious reason (e.g. national security) not to publish.@@path4061
Turn out it is in 2 years
Fabulous video!! As a retired attorney but having no expertise in patent law this was a joy to watch. Even in retirement I try to learn something new every day. This more than made my quota!
sawstop is a predatory scummy company and shouldn't have that broad of a patent, or at the least, they should be made to offer a reasonable percentage for other saws to use the tech. truly evil company that has caused millions of unnecessarily amputated limbs.
The more you exercise your mind the better your state of living.
This video has exceeded my expectations. Like your guest who is a patent attorney who wants to talk about his hobby in work's context I'm an info deeeb who was also excited about the topic... this was a fascinating discussion. Well done! 👊
I watch way too many lawyers on TH-cam. I guess I just like the way they think.
What a great conversation! Thank you Mr. Steele, and thank you Matt for having him on and being prepared with a great set of questions. 👍
This was an excellent conversation and Michael did the subject much justice... thanks for having him on your channel.
The U.S. patent system is actually one of the unique (at the time of implementation) cornerstones that set the U.S. apart in the field of tech development from the rest of the world, catapulting it far ahead of other countries. Having a patent has been wrongly bashed as a greedy move, when in fact it was intended to 1) encourage innovation 2) allow the expense of developing the tech and then bringing it to market to be recouped AND rewarded. AND another beautiful aspect to the patent system is that it's limited, so the patent holder cannot sit on the tech in perpetuity, but it gets released to others so that access becomes cheaper for everyone (at least it's more likely to).
My late uncle was a prominent patent atty. in Seattle for ~50 years, from the 1960's to the early 2000's.
You just earned another subscriber, but NOT due to your goofy, click-bait expressions on your thumbnails... you're better than that. 😉
The patent process is actually in the US Constitution and was a great innovation for the day. The patent type that is most abused is the business process patent. Most of those are contra to the original idea of patents.
I have a friend that designs electronic equipment. He had a version of one of his products made in China. The knockoffs, which were made on the same assembly line using his design but with much cheaper components, were available within days of his high quality product. That was the one and only time he sent stuff to China. He’s stuff is now built in California at a higher price but without cheap knockoffs.
I can confirm that this indeed happens, also for (very) large companies outsourcing production, but typically owning the specific tools (moulds) for their design.
BPP's are, of course, the most difficult to enforce, and lack of geographic proximity (not to mention an unfriendly legal system in the infringer's geographic location) makes it all the more difficult. And it requires deep, deep pockets to pursue an infringement claim even in the friendliest legal environment.
@@chuckschillingvideos Unless Clarence Thomas involved, he is so much a money slave.
This is something I have wondered about. Glad to see you get a professional who could help answer this.
Matt, thanks for being perceptive enough to know this content would appeal to your audience. This was time well spent!
I would bet that every top end company Dewalt, Milwaukee, Makita, already have some version of the SawStop already made. They are just waiting for patents to end.
Agreed.
That would be the smart move and there is a reason they are still around unlike Trump water, etc.
The patent does not stop a company from making a saw that stops safely. It is the technology that it makes the saw stop that. Just like the seat belt, any car manufacturer could have made a seat belt. It was the technology that locked, that was patent. You could not patent a strap across someone's chest. If these companies you listed had the ability to create a system in which stopped a sawblade, such as the saw stop, they would Have already
What an awesome, knowledgeable session from two men of outstanding integrity. Thank you both.
Much appreciated!
Integrity, too moral to be a DJT voter
@@toriless Reconsider your remark. We're all here @731Woodworks to respectfully enjoy ourselves in good company; you're still invited. Unless you've hit your head reaching for low-hanging fruit too many times.
One of the most informative Woodworking videos I've watched on TH-cam in quite a while!
Thank you BOTH for doing this!
PS: I own a SawStop and have the first Blade/Cartridge weld combination mounted on the wall where I can see it every time I work with the Saw! I was fortunate it was a cheap blade!
I’m pretty convinced I am not the only person in North America that is sick and tired of junky knockoffs that you cannot get repair parts for when they inevitably conk out prematurely. Thanks for the work you guys do.
Thank you for this presentation. This was a very informative show. Please keep up the great work with your investigative initiative.
Thank you! Will do!
This was AWESOME! Very informative. I sincerely appreciate the effort to bring this to your viewers. Thank you!
Very good non-woodworking, woodworking video! A lot of info, will probably be back several times to watch it again!
Like everyone else I've been hearing for the last several years about the patents are about to expire on the Sawstop but here we are heading towards the end of 2023 and most of them seem to be hanging on.
Interesting about the US patent for the domino too. There almost has to be one hiding out or there would be a knock-off on the market a long time ago.
I'm guessing there is no USA patent on the Domino because of the cost and time required to get it. Festool just decided it was not worth it. Because to make a Domino requires a lot of money and machinery expertise. Its not simple. And any patent infringer would be limited to the USA only. Because Festool does have a patent on the Domino in Europe. I assume the Domino is only sold in rich parts of the world. The profitability for making a Domino copy and only being able to sell it in the USA only would not work. The Domino is $1000 or $1500. A knockoff sold only in the USA would need to be sold at half price lets say. $500 or $750. Are there enough sales in the USA at that reduced copy price to make it profitable for the maker? Probably not. Its not like there are millions and millions of people in the USA who would buy the copy Domino. Of the 330 million people in the USA, there are not that many woodworkers really. 1 in 100? 1 in 200? 1 in 300? So there are maybe 1 million woodworkers in the USA. How many of those would buy a Domino at any price? They already bought a Festool Domino. How many of the ones left will buy a Domino copy at half price?
Great interview and conversation. I learned a lot about trademarks, manufacturing overseas, and the future of table saws.
Thanks guys. Nice discussion. Felder has a blade stopping mechanism that doesn't seem to infringe on SawStops gear.
@@DamianDArienzo But right now Felder is only offering its safety saw device on its very top end saws. Not the "cheap" Felder models or the extremely poor man's Hammer brand. So it will be many many years before it gets more adopted.
They have just released it on a couple of other saws, the cheapest being the Felder K945 i think, still not cheap though at around 10k euros plus VAT
Not that hard, my mitre saw has blade stop tech and it is old.
Matt, this is a great video. Keep up with the great videos and thanks again to Michael Steele for providing his time and expertise in this area. Hopefully, other saw manufacturers will figure out a way to use this technology once the patents expire.
The other Michael Steele??
Great conversation. Thanks to both of you for producing that video. I own a SawStop and more Festools than I should. The logic that works for me to invest in a tool like them is - "this is the last tool like that I will ever need to buy".
Except Festool doesn't make the best tools. So you're likely to need to buy another anyway.
Never said they were the best. The main problem I have with Festool is they cater to their main customers professional, mobile carpenters not hobbyists with a shop. So, everyone can make up their own mind - if don't think they are worth don't buy them.@@frijoli9579
You must be old, even a Toyota does not last forever.
It is a shame that Bosch lost their case. I have a Reaxx table saw. I tripped it one time. Not even a nick. Took longer to read the manual about how to flip the cartridge around than it did to actually make the change. Of course, no damage to the blade.
Sawstop is not a troll because they have an actual product.
They're Mr. Monopoly instead haha.
The only thing they did that I disagreed with in protection was going after the Bosch saw. Way different technology not even close to being the same.
I understand they could because that’s the law, I don’t understand why the law is written that way.
@@Andrew_Sherman Totally agree! I'm still bitter about it haha! I was so ready to buy the Bosch when it came out it was a game changer. I think it scared SawStop because they created something that didn't destroy the blade. Which killed another revenue source SawStop has (the carts (and blades if people buy their blades from them too) ) - I really hope Bosch brings it back, coupled with a rack and pinion fence they would put a big rift in the jobsite / portable saw market.
@@MemelordSupreme I hope it comes back to! I’d be happier without the rack and pinion though (I know I’m in the minority).
@@MemelordSupremeYou are right. For awhile I told myself I would not buy a sawstop because of their actions against Bosch. The Bosch saw was a game changer in that the blade isn't destroyed and there is no cartridge to replace.
I ultimately bought a used sawstop because it was priced right. I would not have been able to afford it otherwise.
Getting back to your point, when a company has a monopoly on safety, everyone loses. You could lose your fingers in a table saw accident or lose a lot of your hard owned cash.
Really awesome video!!
Have a few patents myself…. Your lawyer friend was absolutely right. And sounds like a stud patent attorney.
Badass!! I cannot thank you enough. I’d watch a show you guys digging through woodworking and tool patents and future projects… let’s start a woodworking R&D facility!!!!?!??
The most entertaining woodworking video I've seen in months!! Oddly enough, I didn't end up wanting to buy a new tool 😅
See, with this video you just plain got me interested in your channel. Excellent content. Keep up the great work.
Welcome aboard!
Great job on this one.... I'm not even sure why TH-cam recommended it, but that was an outstanding video.
Attorney Steele was great.
I lost the timestamp, but he did touch on something an insider had told me.... Uhhh, hypothetically, I mean... I can't discuss this... But my understanding (hypothetically) was that the SawStop people initially, the plan was to license it, or sell it outright, to a big took company, like Delta, or whoever.... But nobody would buy it. So they said fine, and just started their own tool company....
So I was pleased that Attorney Steele did confirm that..... so I feel pretty good about his research...
My only nitpick might have been this..... In the modern world, today, 2023, I know that competing products are sold in some overseas places.... So clearly their patents don't reach everywhere.... Or, they have determined that the cost to fight would be too high....... So I think that yes, when that patent expires, I think all the other big players literally will have the trucks rolling the night before, to put that product in the stores on 6AM following patent expiration.....
The other thing I would point out is, and I think Attorney Steele kind of walked around this issue talking about liability, and maybe he was uncomfortable, or maybe it was beyond the scope... But today, if you own a cabinet shop, and you have employees running table saws.... In many areas of the USA, many areas, you can't get workmans comp insurance, unless you throw out all your saws, and bring in SawStop.... These insurers, and look, they have Attorneys too, okay, I'm sure they see that okay hold on, if someone gets hurt, and goes to court.... SawStop EXISTS, right??? Why didn't the employer provide SawStop..... That is hard to defend in court, obviously.... You could have provided this much safer tool, and you didn't, because of money.....
So yeah.... When those patents expire, I expect that every saw sold will have some form of blade safety on it.....
Anyways, great job....
Since you have the festool, it's common practice to place patent numbers on the label or in the documentation, so you might find the us patent number there.
I've been waiting for this video! Thank you for doing this.
Hope you enjoyed it!
@731Woodworks Absolutely! I haven't purchased a Table Saw, so this is very helpful in making decisions on a purchase, delaying purchase etc.
Mat, You have come a long way since you started with your channel. I have to say your doing great, You are a real go getter. Your mind just doesnt stop. Do you have time to even sleep.? What your doing takes alot of time and work. You have worked hard for what you have and its only going to get better. Your everywhere on the internet. Good luck with your channel and I can see its going to be a great success. maybe the number one woodworking channel on the internet with millions of followers. Your doing it right Mat.
Matt, I gotta say this. I believe your future may be podcasting for woodworkers. You have the voice, the passion, the equipment, and the creativity to go big-time podcasts. Many times while woodworking I will be listening to a LivingWaters podcast thru my noise canceling earmuffs. I never planned to listen to this entire video but the two of you captivated me. Thank you so much for all you do in bringing woodworking alive.
Podcasts stink, they spend 2 hours on a 10-20 minute subject.
FANTASTIC VIDEO!!! Learned a ton from this. Would love to see more like this. Keep up the awesome work man!
Thanks!
Mr Gass lobbied the government to require HIS device in all tablesaws when manufacturers didn't want to buy his technology. I will never buy a Sawstop for this reason alone. I will wait until the patent expires and buy another brand.
Matt, thanks for making this video. It was quite interesting. It’s always interesting listening to someone that is very knowledgeable in their field, even patent law, Lol.
I saw a video on the BladeStop saw today. If that company can put their technology in a table saw that hobby woodworkers can afford, the BladeStop saw will leave SawStop in the dust.
For starters, when the BladeStop senses skin, the motor stops spinning immediately AND the blades retracts into the cabinet and below the table surface. As soon as you clear the area in question, you can turn the saw back on and continue with your saw action. No expensive parts to replace.
Personally, I think BladeStop company will be a game changer if they can put this technology into an affordable saw.
There are better systems and ones that use different technology, but SawStop have abused their patent to keep them off the market.
An interesting topic like this is the multitool. Originally patented as a cast saw. Before the patent ran out, companies had their version ready to hit the market as soon as it expired. Tool companies will have their version of sawstop ready the day it ends
when he said the inventor was a patent attorney himself i smiled ear to ear as i understood why he said it was the most thorough hed ever seen. just an example of someone that is damn good at their endeavors. everyone should strive to be that way, to excel beyond any expectations.
tldr: be the best you and dont stop till you reach that level in which people start talking about your creations like their on jerry springer lol.
If this is too long we are doomed lol.
@@darinpringle5611 Honestly if it can save many lives from changing due to an accident, I will give it to the world for free as long as no one tries to patent it themselves and they credit me as the creator.
Great content, very informative on a topic that’s continually brought up on many platforms and content channels.
Interesting video. I first saw the Saw Stop at the Atlanta IWF in 2000 and I assumed that all manufacturers would shortly lease rights to saw stop. Much to my surprise nobody would lease the saw stop. My understanding of their reasoning was that everyone assumes risk when running a table saw. But if a safety device is placed on the saw and fails the cost of the lawsuit would be tremendous. So the cost of one saw stop failure resulting in injury would be more expensive then the cost of hundreds of accidents resulting in loss of fingers on a saw without a safety device.
Wikipedia says that Sawstop wanted to license the technology, but the other companies wanted to manufacture the devices themselves while Sawstop assumed the product liability. ST would not bear the liability unless they manufactured it.
Another take I heard from someone at sawstop was they were in talks with Delta and Ryobi but those company lawyers pointed out they would create liability by having the tech and not deploying across the lineup.
Per Grizzly tools founder Shiraz Balolia, when Sawstop was trying to find someone to license it, he approached them and they turned him down on the basis they only wanted to work with a major brand in order to give them more credibility.
@@janitorbob2008 lmao, grizzly’s not a major brand?
@@clayed3311 SawStop CEO is a piece of work, as cool as the tech is, and good as their saws are, I will never get one while he is part of the company
Great video, very informative! Thanks for the time you put into this, Matt.
This is one of the most useful woodworking video I've seen in years
Thank you
I highly recommend getting a patent agent or attorney if you want to get a patent. The process is complex, and it can be very expensive. The prospects of being able to assert your patent against infringers, if you are a solo inventor or small business, are slim. This is only worse if your patent is of low quality (hence needing the services of an agent or attorney).
This is a great video, thank you both for taking the time to put this together!
Our pleasure!
I really try to buy authentic products as often as I reasonably can afford, especially USA made. However, the companies need to price them reasonably, as well. It's funny that Woodpeckers was mentioned. They essentially ripped off A Glimpse Inside's design for a orbital sander holder, that he manufactures as a small business, and wouldn't you know, it is the one Woodpecker tool that is priced competitively. It costs less than some of their speed squares and T-squares. I don't begrudge SawStop, Woodpeckers or Festool for making the money they deserve, but I do feel like they can do more to meet their paying customers half way, at times.
Great video, Matt!
Actually, the Craftsman model no. TJZ10/3, was being redesigned to accept this technology. They pulled the saw from the market. It was supposed to have been built at the Texas plant that closed. They may well release it after the patent expires. Great video. Thank you for sharing. Everyone stay safe, happy and healthy. From Henrico County Virginia
Wouldn't surprise me. I wish the video answered this, but my understanding was that large companies start R&D on products 2-5 years before patents expire. I don't know if the patent would prevent them from doing R&D or just from selling the finished product.
The risk of being sued for a product they made and sold decades ago caused a lot of harm to the makers of small airplanes. As technology advanced, survivors said the manufacturers should have recalled their older planes and installed the upgrades that are put into all their new ones. But people buy and fly airplanes that are 20-50 years old...a long time for a company to be at risk.
The effect was a 10-year period in which the companies all stopped making airplanes (Cessna, Piper, Beech). I can imagine something similar happening to the makers of table saws.
There's a subtle, but important difference. Aircraft come under what's called special liability. The theory being that a plane falling out of the sky can cause property damage or death or injury to someone that never was a beneficiary of the existence of that aircraft. This also applies to other things like backyard swimming pools and boilers etc (maybe cranes?).
This also means that the aircraft manufacturer can be held liable for "all foreseeable misuse". Essentially, even when there was pilot error held to be 90% at fault, or bad maintenance, the manufacturers could be on the hook for 100% of a judgement if there was a tiny amount of possibility that a safer design, material or process could have been found.
Great interview! You just made all of us richer...not the least of whom is Mike!
How do you know a sawstop hater is mad at you?
They flip you off with their nub.
This was a very interesting conversation and appreciate the insight of Mr. Steele, the one comment I'll make is that in saying SawStop (Steve Gass) tried to license the SS technology and companies declined, you skip over the fact that companies declined because Mr. Gass because he was demanding high royalty rates based upon the retail price of the saw (which were to increase even more if he managed to get enough industry adoption), not because the companies were unwilling to pay for the tech. Further, once Mr. Gass determined he wasn't going to get existing companies to pay his desired licensing fees and founded his own company, he then went to the legislature to try to attempt to mandate the use of his product to effectively remove the competition for his products (while also very actively suing anyone that tried to offer competing safety technology), so while I agree SS's actions don't meet the traditional definition of a patent troll, I do feel Mr. Gass has abused his knowledge as a patent attorney to manipulate the system to his benefit and thus why SS gets referred to as patent trolls.
I like the idea of a blade that would drop down and away without the destruction of blade and safety device. It would also simplify the use of a dado blade.
I own a sawstop portable saw and it made me really nervous when I was sawing some very wet pressure treated lumber.
I’m a Shopsmith user and TH-cam creator and at 15:20 Michael made the same point that we discussed in a video on my channel. Shopsmith tested the concept of braking the tool quickly and it just about flipped over, which would be far more risky. Fun chat, gents. Scott
Thanks for the insight on what the real story. I was a "SawStop Hater" before I saw your explanation. I don't feel as sorry now for the companies that turned down the technology, and then cry about it when SawStop did all the effort to bring the product to fruition. Once the patent expires, you will see this tech in all saws and, if not, the Government will make them do it. Whether it's right or wrong, you know that is what will happen. It will be a benefit to the consumer, and maybe some company will prove a technology that will make sense for low-end saw systems. It will also maybe put pressure on SawStop to reduce the price on their quality, but over-priced saws (yes, I said it - SawStop saws now cost 2x a comparable saw from another company). That 2x price cannot be just because of their safety system. Also, shame on our Government for not protecting all-American companies. BTW, love your tee-shirt, Matt. :)
Felder PCS which came out awhile back and this Altendorf system are already working designs. To my knowledge SawStop has not filled any infringement with these systems. Felder might even be selling it in North America already. I'm not sure about Altendorf. My biggest complaint with SawStop is the virtually no effort to improve the design in the 20+ years the safety system has been around.
Altendorf is a totally different system using cameras and high tech. SS didn’t file an infringement suit bc it would have been pointless - there is no similarity whatsoever and they know it.
Interesting discussion on intellectual property and patents. Thank you.
Great interview and nice overview of patents, especially the "look" of a product with all of the knockoffs. Alterndorf's technology is great but it would be very difficult to scale down - this would be great for industrial purposes, but cameras aren't cheap and the mechanism needs to be sorted out.
The difference between the Reaxx system and the SawStop system is that SawStop system destroyed the blade to get the spinning blade to stop, costing lots of time and money (estimated at about $350 to replace the blade and reset it) while the Reaxx system used igniters, similar the proven ones in airbag systems, to shoot the spinning blade, in about a ten thousandth of a second, to a safe place below the surface of the saw, where the spinning was stopped non-destructively. The Reaxx saw from Bosch cost about $2,500 less than the cheapest SawStop machine, and the stopped Bosch blade could be re-set and re-used immediately, since its saw-stopping device came with 2 charges, at a cost of less than $20 for a new 2-charge cartridge. After the blade stopped, you just turned the cartridge around in its mount and continued safely using the Reaxx saw after the blade was re-set.
Great talk, thanks
Very professional conversation. Well spoken.
I see you’ve entered the “funny face” thumbnail phase. Very original. 😂
Great review thanks for taking the time on this it was educational for us all.
Great conversation Matt. Thank you for doing this. It was very interesting.
Glad you enjoyed it!
This was a cool deep dive into SawStop and patents! Thank you for sharing!
Excellent video interview. Loved the topic. Great job.
My uncle created and runs a complete custom wood manufacturing shop with many employees and specializes in custom mid to high end cabinets and anything wood. But when he opened up his newest shop, put in saw stop becuase of decades working in wood manufacturing has seen so many hands and fingers lost in a split second. For his employees safety and insurance, put in all saw stop.
Sawstop spent a lot of money after other companies turned them down trying to get federal regulators to force competitors to put in the Sawstop technology. When that failed, they continued building a good product and enforcing their patents. I've never thought much of them trying to get federal regulators to force the technology on people.
Would save hundreds of billions of dollars and careers, but Murica, f yeah!
Altendorf has better tech now, saw stop are money grabbing you lot
Thank you for this . Felder also has a system by the way.
Thank You for doing this video!!! Well done. One thing I wish you had asked him, is how much does a patent application cost and how much the process could run $$ wise. I know it probably varies but how and why.
EurekaZone EZ Smart was my favorite track saw system. Many innovative patented features. Hard to find now, as of 2020 it looks like they were reopening at a new location. They had some really cool stuff.
I agree with the attorney that companies will be forced to adopt this technology once the patents expire. I view this as unfortunate. I believe consumers should be able to choose a saw that does not have the technology and to be bound by the consequences of that choice. Besides the higher price of the saw, there are other costs associated with the technology that I would prefer to avoid. The brake triggers when the blade comes in contact with flesh, but it also triggers when the wood is too wet or the blade hits metal. That is, the technology is subject to false positives -- which can be fairly expensive events.
To prevent these false positives, the user can turn off the saw's brake. This creates two risks. The first is the user will forget to turn the brake off. The second is the user will forget to turn the brake back on. (The saw will automatically reset the brake to on after the saw has been turned off, which mitigates -- but does not eliminate -- this second risk.) In my shop, I view the costs associated with these two risks outweigh the benefit that the technology provides. I would feel differently if the saw were to be used in a school, or if a lot of people besides myself used my saw. I understand that the technology could save me from an injury. I also understand that the risk of such an injury -- given my years of daily use of a table saw in a furniture mill and my responsibility in teaching my co-workers how to use the saw safely -- is lower than the average DIY woodworker. I also know that I would simply forget to turn off the brake a few times each year. Shouldn't I be able to assume the risk of injury in exchange for avoiding the hassle and expense of having to replace the brake a few times each year?
I freely admit that my own assessment of the risks may be inaccurate. The risks that I might injure myself might be far higher than I think they are and that the 'best' choice for me would be a saw with this technology. My point is I should be the one who gets to make that call. I don't want the regulators or the courts to force a technology onto me that I do not want nor think that I need.
For me, a blade stopping when starting to cut metal is a good thing unlike you assert. Very few blades of this type are rated for cutting metal.
@@toriless As I said, this should be your call. However, you are factually incorrect. Virtually all table saw blades used today are rated for use with wood AND non-ferrous metals, such as aluminum. I don’t cut metals on my table saw often, but I do cut them a few times each year. YMMV.
Very interesting video, I appreciate both of you for creating this space and sharing this insight.
I would love to see a next genrration of this tech. One that doesnt kill blades or require a new expensive cartridge that costs more that high end blades.
At least on an industrial level to keep shops running and turn aww craps into woopsies.
Thanks guys. Appreciate the time and effort
As far as liability nothing stopped a user from buying the more expensive saw. The user chose the saw that they chose. And one could also argue that there is more profit (per item) on a more expensive saw. Anyone remember the year that chainsaws could be bought with and without the chain brake? The ones without flew off the shelves and when they were gone you had to buy one with the brake. An attorney could argue the user placed a low value on safety in the first place.
or all the optional safety features on cars.
I went through the patent registration process with the USPTO in connection with a robotic device. The entire process took 14 months and $25,000 in attorney's fees. FYI
Late to the party, This was a really interesting video and gave a lot of insights into how patents work. re tool collecting, my problem is I need a garage so we can regain some space in the house, I think the only place I don't have any tools stashed is the bathroom, hmmm maybe I can make an over bath cabinet that is waterproof to store some in lol
Wasn;t sure if I would like this one, but it was very interesting as well as informative. Thanks for putting it together.
so is the conclusion from this discussion that I should stop waiting and just buy a SawStop saw? I feel like I've heard the same thing for the past 2 years that SawStop patent was done and there will be a new wave of saws at better prices. To be fair, I'm also hesitant because I can't decide if what I really need is a track saw or a table saw. I have a crumby old Craftsman table saw that I use that feels more dangerous than worth it, so I end up not using it. I don't have a track saw, but it seems like it's a better solution for breaking down sheet goods. I think I need both.
This was an excellent episode thanks to you both.
Thank you for sharing your faith with your shirts!
Very interesting Matt. Learned a few things.
Glad it was helpful!
Baller video. Thanks to both of you! Wicked awesome!
Glad you enjoyed it!
Excellent interview Matt. This was really interesting.
Ryobi was sued at least twice for not putting the "flesh sensing" technology in their saws when it was available for license. They paid out at least 3.5 million in damages.
The weird/interesting part about "flesh sensing" is that in its core is trivial from electronics stand point of view. Any hobbyist can fabricobble it on a bread board (w/o looking at existing art), you can buy one from an offshore store for a dollar. Heck, your phone has lots of flesh sensing each time you tap it. Just no body has thought to patent/consider it obvious when it comes to wood working.
@@stanimir4197gonna take apart my touchscreen phone and put the guts in my saw. Thanks for saving me money!
@@stanimir4197but this predated smartphones
Hey Matt!! I don’t know if anyone brought up the Felder saw that also has a CS system as well. Its been out for a while now as well. THEN let us not forget that there is an alternative to all of these systems which, as you well know, is light years ahead of this 1800's technology...The Altendorf HandGuard saw...😊😊
Felder, SCMI, Altendorf, etc. have now patented different safety methods that do not destroy the blade.
I love my Harvey Alpha tablesaw. Great saw that is smooth as butta. Love the fence system.
This was an outstanding video, and I enjoyed the discussion.
Four years ago I bought a Saw Stop along with a new cartridge. Wasted my money, I’ve not needed it to stop on a dime.
Someone please make another Domino joinery, 😊 great video Matt, thank you!!!
“I am not your lawyer”. Hahaha. Every time.
They have to. Or they get sued by someone that said "but you told me this...."
Drinking game!
the longest sawstop continuation patent expires in may 2026. after that, its over. reaxx was found to not be found infringing on sawstop patents 7,225,712 and 7,600,455 so sawstop isn't the invulnerable entity they are portrayed to be.
I've had extensive conversations with Steve Gass about the legal aspects of his patents & how they would interact with his marketing plans back when the SawStop was brand new. (BTW, Steve Gass is an absolutely brilliant person! He has both a PhD in Physics & a JD in patent law.
(this wasn't Steve's explanation) So why didn't saw companies license the sawstop technology when it was first offered? Their argument was all table saws came with cheap plastic blade guards. Of course every woodworker would remove the guard. And that gave the manufacturer a 100% effective defense to an injury claim. They could say that they supplied a blade guard that would have protected the user's hand, but they chose to remove it. However, if they installed a saw stop system & it failed they'd be 100% responsible! So adding a saw stop safety would both raise their price & increase their legal exposure to being sued. That would be a bad business decision!
Great talk. So when does the Domino patent expire in Europe?
Been a professional woodworker since the 70's, when SS came out I actually thought about investing in the technology.
That was until I learned that the inventor was trying to get legislation passed to mandate use of his product.
Never! I'll now go to my grave not supporting this carpetbagger.
I moved to the European sliding table saw and power feeders to protect my appendages rather than support a lawyer who tries to get government to mandate profits for his invention.
The new owner still is trying that.
Brilliantly entertaining video ... thanks both.
That was an excellent interview. Ty
That Was a really great video. I would also agree with the lawyer in regards to the knock off tools.. I get woodpecker tools are a bit expensive , but if everyone buys the knock offs Woodpecker will cease to innovate and come out with cool and unique tool options.
Some are reasonable. I've got the cabinet shelf pin jig for $300 Cdn. It is very well made out of phenolic. I just wish their giant squares were a bit cheaper.
Great video guys!... incredibly interesting & informative.
interesting discussion. Wonder of these same arguments could be applied to gun safety? Electronic locks -- like locking your phone against unwarranted use -- and things like that?
Thanks for this, it is defiantly food for thought.
Just imagine if the companies had all licensed the tech, the whole world would be a lot safer.
I remember seeing a trade show TH-cam video (this year) with a cabinet table saw with the blade drop technology along with a sliding deck. It was way out of my price range (at the moment) and larger than I currently have space for, but it was way cool!
Great video! I don’t understand why people are so against a company having a great invention that is designed and built in the US? They are expensive saws with a genius feature but a high quality cabinet saw will cost a lot of money whether it is Sawstop or not.. I can appreciate that it is a safety feature that everyone should have access to but there are a lot of machines in a woodshop that will change your life. Using a table saw without the technology will not inevitably lead to injury. Having a sawstop will not protect you from having a brutal injury on a jointer.
It's their business practices that people don't like.