Film Photography Recession || Opinion
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 24 มิ.ย. 2024
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everyone thank foma for still making cheap 120 and 4x5
No por mucho tiempo.
And 35mm!
Very agree! Foma has given all amateurs a real opportunity to enter analogue photography. They make good enough products to give the more established manufacturers competition in terms of quality as well. For my part, Foma was the main reason why I bought a 5x7 Intrepid Camera large format camera. Foma has given life to the entire collection of cameras at my home.
Foma is solidly underrated!
too bad that they dont make color c-41 film
Agreed!
The increasing price of film and chemicals, along with the scarcity of of certain film I believe is the main driving factor.
The other factor is the general economic downturn and inflation. People just don’t have the disposable income for hobbies such as photography they had a couple of years before.
The price of equipment at this point is a symptom symptom of the above factors.
I'm honestly glad a lot of these camera prices have crashed. The used camera market quickly veered into exploitation. I'm thrilled at $1,500-$2,000 for a Mamiya 7. I'd never have bothered if they were $3,500 unless they were brand new and still being manufactured. Hasseblads never should have been so cheap, but even they've gotten a bit high. The fashion aspect of the market also needed to change, in that people were passing up great cameras that were less known for known items such as AE-1s and T2s at a premium. Do we spend $750 for an iffy fashion item such as the T4, or do we realize that we can often get nice-but-less-hip things for dramatically less? I'm still not sold on digital being cheaper, either, because we *Can* just shoot the same digital for a decade, but how often does that really happen? I'm opening a non-profit community darkroom and I'm going to be selling a variety of cameras at more flat rates than market prices (in-person only) because I'm going to prioritize growing the market vs. temporary megaprofit.
Agree. I recently got my hands on a Nikon F6, mint or close to it, boxed with English manual, unfortunately it didn't have the MS-41 battery holder for the cr123 lithium batteries but I was able to source the battery grip for a lot less than some Japanese sellers were looking for the MS-41 battery holder plus I like the grip. Anyway, camera and grip for under £560 = $700us average asking price for the equivalent from Japan $2000 and upwards. Good bargains are out there. You sometimes just need to be patient.
Definitely! Funny that you mention the F6, because I was recently GIVEN one! The internal battery had died so it was a bit of a pain, but Nikon still services them, so I spent a few bucks to have it fixed and now it's working perfectly, and I have the assurance that they can fix it if it acts up again for at least the near future. Worth every cent of that repair.
Digital is cheaper if u buy a used good camera and then proceed to take thousands of photos and videos. There’s no doubt digital is cheaper per shot
@@garymorrison277 What was your source for buying the F6? Local sale? Because the international eBay market can't offer bargains.
@@JamieMPhoto Whaddya mean, internal battery of the F6 had died? You mean the battery door/compartment had malfunctioned? Because there is no internal battery as far as I'm aware of. I have the F100, and their battery compartments just crumble. So, I got a few copies and I have x2 spares (batteries are unmounted when camera is in storage)
Fire hydrants on medium format 🤌🏻
i think the price hike of some cameras is mostly caused by youtubers :))
TH-camrs now, magazines before, there is always a medium that creates demand within the audience.
This and Kylie Jenner
@@NicosPhotographyShow While magazines did drive demand back in the day, I think that the influence people themselves have on each other is far greater today thanks to the reach of the Internet and impact of social media in particular. Back before the Internet existed, our sphere of influence involving other people was much smaller. Back then people that owned more than one decent camera were typically either professionals or considered extreme personalities. What was once seen as extreme behavior years ago has been normalized by the fact that the entire world exists on a screen in front of us and we can easily interact with it. Like-minded people are drawn to each other and the Internet has made it incredibly easy for us to connect with one another. As a result behavior once seen as extreme is suddenly normalized. Not only has the Internet served to increase desire like never before, but it has opened up countless purchasing avenues that never before existed. Change is inevitable and the world that film photography exists in today is far different than the world it existed in back before digital photography or the Internet came along. Whether these changes are better or worse is simply a matter of personal opinion. I'm simply glad that film photography still exists these days.
Glad to hear that a Mamiya 7 is no longer $4,500 USD. Its nice to see the price gougers not getting much ROI.
Market pushed prices up, now slowly decreasing prices, my take is usually if value is added, be it with a repair, warranty or similar I can be behind prices being high, if its just private sale then Im not a fan of high prices.
@@NicosPhotographyShow Totally Agree! Value added vs Value lost
In 2008, I bought my Leica M4-p in almost mint condition for 450,- euro. The M6 then was about 800 euro . My Mamiya 645 1000s with the 80mm F1.9 was 250,- euro. A Pentax me super, or mx were around 30,- euros then. I even acquired and gave away for free most af- film cameras. Like the canon eos 650, 620, 300n, 1000, or some low end nikons.
Then, in about 15 years, the prices quadrupled and went insane. So, I'm happy prices are going to a reasonable level.
Such a good video man. Lots to unpack here. Will you make it to Vienna for the Rotlicht Festival?
Nicely done, Nico. On a very non-systematic basis, I've been keeping an eye on Deardorff 8x10 cameras; after several years of a frantic market, where a so-so version would go for $2.5K in a heartbeat, I am seeing them stay on the market for far longer, and, in the main, going for less.
The 8x10 cameras are largely being bought by those in the wet plate collodion resurgence, I think.
Excellent video. Thank you
You are welcome!
People only want to buy the fashionable film cameras like the Contax. But the less popular cameras like the Canon F1 get overlooked. I’m seeing lots of brilliant film cameras staying on eBay for a long time. I myself have found it very difficult to sell film cameras. The film revival is still a very niche market. A lot of people are switching to Fuji digital cameras since the price rises too.
It is CONTAX, not Contax. And they might be fashionable, but however, the AX, the 167MT, RTS, and all that Zeiss glass… it’s not that much about fashion than form and functionality aka design and quality.
@@etienneportail5122 Not saying they are not good cameras, but they are definitely over rated. There’s better cameras out there for less money.
6 months ago I was gifted a Nikon d70. 20 years ago my sister shot on Nikon so I was immediately drawn to this camera. It taught me a lot and I bought a d200 and a d610 to expand my learning. I bought a few lens and branched out to the nikon F and F2 since all the lenses worked. While I loved shooting on 35mm film it was very similar to the dslr feeling so I found a good deal on a rb67 and went in on the kit and medium format. So far still learning but it’s been great! 👍
thanks for sharing your opinon like that, very interesting and definitely agree on most of your thoughts
I've definitely noticed Pentax 67 prices falling quite a bit this year. I've heard people mention the high price of film stock, moving on from pandemic era hobbies and general inflation as reasons.
You said “no one makes a living from film photography anymore“, however I think a number of people have tried to make a living flipping cameras in the last few years. I live in Tokyo and I regularly visit the used camera stores. In the stores I often see people from other countries who are buying cameras, but don’t seem to be buying for themselves. I suspect that the recent bubble and prices was a result of people watching a TH-cam video showing how they made money flipping cameras and who decided they’d give it a try. A spike in the number of new dealers trying to make a profit could certainly drive a price bubble.
Yesterday I went to my favourite coffee shop in Edinburgh and had a Danish pastry and a coffee and it cost me £6.75. That was about forty minutes of pleasure. For the same price I can shoot and develop a roll of Fomapan and maybe start making some prints off it. A bit more for Ilford. That would be a weekend and a couple of evenings pleasure for about £10. A couple of months back I bought a mint condition Nikon F5 body for £260. Alternatively I could shoot a single 4x5 Ektachrome sheet and it would cost £15 and I'd probably mess it up. Photography has always been like this. You can pay as much or as little as you like. People are generally too uptight about what they think photography is. If you want perfect images cheaply shoot digital. If you want to explore a different way of viewing the world in analogue you have to think differently and have some ingenuity/creativity.
Ja i agree. I think that shooting film without printing out photo in darkroom is useful, even stupid to me.
Film photography is dying.
@@Ortopedija1989 it will never completely die. I can make basic glass plates and print them at home using just raw chemicals. The chances someone in the world will always be doing this commercially are very high. The worst case is it will go back to the 19th century. (Colour may well die though!)
Great topic and I believe you are right about film gear prices softening. Another factor is that the Yen is weak vs the dollar recently. I visited Tokyo in June and visited 12 shops. When converted to USD the prices seemed actually reasonable.
Everyone has at least one film camera. The problem is the price of film, especially for the people in countries with low income.
You are spot on
I think the same thing is happening here in Brazil. Last year (mid-year) I think was the peak in camera prices, especially high-end ones. Now, even though prices are a little bit low, almost no one is buying cameras.
Lot of goon insight. I saw this w/ some of my favorite classics. Now I'm just using what i have but strongly considering parts bodies for my favorites. The F4
Very thoughtful-thank you. All sound reasoning. I don’t understand why there are not more new film camera options on the market. I do worry about the market for new film and maybe that’s why I just bought 20 rolls of velvia.
I’ve definitely seen prices dropping for Hasselblad modular cameras, Leica M bodies and “premium” point and shoots here in the U.S.
My personally film camera collection has gone from 30 cameras to 10 cameras in the last year. Sold off some cameras to help fund buying film. But like you, there are some I simply cannot part with. My local camera store was selling used M6 cameras for $3000 the same day they received them, today they have 4 listing for $2300 - $2400 and they are still sitting there.
Great video!
BIDEN economy ; everyone hated TRUMP ...but people could pay for fuel heating oil and electric ...yes and mortgage or rents. Do not blame it on the cameras ...it is LEFTIST policies that are bankrupting American people. The UKRAINE war ...is a huge drag on our currency , the War is funded , while Hawaiians who lost homes got 700.00 in a place that Hotels are 250.00 a night ..... The Ukrainians per capita get 4, 500 .... The invading Horde's from Southern Border ... get 2 , 750 and FREE medical and Health care ....and in my state Washington : FREE HOUSING and food stamps / Medical ..... Are cameras to blame or film for this ???
I remember when one could get a Leica M6 in the early 2000s for around USD1,100 or even less.
Playing a long game will pay off too I think, if you can wait there will be some (relative) bargains to be had over the next few years
@@tompoynton Playing the long game as a buyer, you mean. right? So, you are predicting pricing going down more and more even for Hassy's etc.?
You might be right, but I have a feeling if at one point film prices will be more normal- then this may change and prices will go up again...
Agree with you. I bought an RB67 ProSD last year, and I notice it is less expense today.
7:30 Your point here is true and kind of devastating. If major companies start to make professional grade cameras again, they will be EXTREMELY expensive, and will likely not be serviceable the way older cameras are, or made with the same durable materials.
Nico ; I do not know about trends , but I shot my 35mm Leica's and my F3 on my 63rd birth day ....walking on the prairie near my home ... and I am trying to pay off a bid , this week on a 55mm F4 Wide / Rollie TLR in Canada , the camera is from a collection , and beautiful . I shall have it serviced by Harry Fleanor , in California , and have a Maxwell Screen installed. I am spending two month's income for this camera ... I know " scary " , but I love the TLR , and the Wide ....is so rare.
I just recorded a very similar video centered around the news of the new Kodak H35n camera, I've been out of the large scale camera sales sphere for a while now but even selling my own refurbished systems it's interesting to see what prices things are going for. Digging the recent videos!
Hey Nico!! I'm down for your opinion videos. Great to see you! And...yeah...I shoot everything I buy so I see a TON of old gear that eventually breaks on me because I shoot in the field. When I am considering a camera or lens for a project I've GOT to consider age, repairability, parts availability, etc. I love the little Olympus XA rangefinder series, for example, but the controller boards die and then you're screwed. So as much as I want to shoot with them I can't justify getting any. I just know they'll go belly up. It becomes a race between how many rolls I can get through for work (I try to get paid as often as I can) before the gear dies. If I can get enough stories sold to recoup, say, 2x the expense of buying that camera before the camera dies, I'll do it. If I can't, I won't.
Also, on another note: I ESPECIALLY have to think about if the gear will fail on me while I'm doing a story in the field. Like, that can't happen. It's the reason I don't take my Pentacon 6's out for work anymore. I love those things more than any other medium format body, but they just aren't reliable. Which breaks my heart because they're a joy to work with.
You live in a tropical climate state that so many cameras break? I wouldn't trust a plasticy Olympus XA though, yet, I wonder if other, more heavy duty cameras also break for you, and why
@@eladbari I live in the San Francisco Bay Area, so we do have some rain. But really it's that I use 60 to 110 year old cameras in the field for photojournalism or documentary work. Which means wear and tear in terms of a lot of travel, handling in the field and a lot of sustained shutter activations in rapid order. I've had multiple Bronica S2A's and Pentax 645's (the old, workhorse manual units) break. A variety of really clean, great condition Graflex's decided I was too much and let go, although in their defense I've had a couple of them also go through insane amounts of use as well. Obviously the Pentacon 6's are super unreliable, which sucks because I love them. I do have a Bronica ETRSi that's been good to me so far. My Nikon's have always been trouble free. I don't use them that often, though. I predominantly use medium and large formats at this point in time so I'm really careful with what I choose for each project. :)
@@erikmathy4211 Thanks for sharing. I understand your situation now.
I also kinda liked the squared format, so I aimed for a Pentacon 6 myself (as it was a cheap+ light option), but at the end I had an option to get a (plot twist) Hasselblad 503CW, which I don't use as I always get a feeling like the results I get feel closer to an immaculate digital image, while I aim for a more gritty, grainy result like with a 35mm format. I was gonna sell that Hassy, yet, having to sign up to Payoneer to be able to sell on eBay (and having to pay yearly 30-50$ to them if you don't sell anything)- got me off eBay, so it just stored aside for now. Not sure if or how to sell it.
For my 35mm needs I got my Nikon F100's.
Interesting video. I think your read makes sense. I also believe that many people got the bug during the pandemic because they were bored and were glad to indulge a hobby for a while, but life resumed with its attendant demands, so now there’s less time and money available for shooting, developing, collecting, etc. Maybe more people are selling their nice-to-haves, like your RB, but glancing though eBay, prices do look lower for TLRs that I bought a few years ago, but the sellers are the usual suspects. So I think at least for that corner of the market, interest has diminished more than people selling gear to raise funds.
In the long run, mint examples of mechanical pro gear with the best optics of the era will always attract top dollar with collectors excited about niche variants. I agree that unserviceable gear will be highly vulnerable, and would avoid it.
I can't wait to get some film camera's I've had my eye on for a while as the prices go down. I'd really like a medium format camera.
Online hype drive the prices up artificially.
I buy and sell cameras 📷 and have noticed a dramatic slow down of film cameras and prices are steadying if not coming down slowly.
Prices are also determined by supply and demand, obviously older caneras are still desirable simply because there are no new alternatives!
The minute Olympus produce a nodern mju model, the bottom will drop out of the 2nd hand mju model market and their value would plummet.
Plus we currently have high inflation and high living expenses which all impact the available money we spend on our hobbies.
Took the train and sold all my gear 3 years ago. Mamiya 7 II, polaroid 600 SE with a lot of pack films and full set up Nikkor AIS 1;2's. Peak prices... now i don't even know if i'm gonna buy back. i'm good with all my mju's.... if they break, i throw away. It is very difficult to endure those prices when it comes to labs... it's not the gear, it's the price ration for a guy who's not printing or even making a bit of money. Recession everywhere my friend. Great video.
if for cheap then i could buy some broken mju ii, and try for fun to repair it
Good topic man
Tema interesante Nico, está claro que va ser difícil que los precios tanto de las cámaras como de la película baje. Solo queda esperar a que se desinfle la burbuja.
Yo por mi parte voy a utilizar menos película, eso lo tengo claro. No quiero seguir contribuyendo a encarecer más los precios.
Un abrazo!
I don't know about the prices of large format film but when you take long term inflation into it there isn't a big difference in the price of film 35mm or 120 in the price of it in the 80's and 90's. I remember buying kodak ektar for around £6 (uk) in the earlier 1990's that £6 then is the equivalent of around £17.50 today and how many is a 36 exposure roll of extar £16-£18.
I have a mamiya 7 and a gf670 that are sitting in my film humidifier cabinet . I don’t use it because film is stupid expensive and finally jumped to digital after. Shooting film for 30 years. I decided not to sell them at the peak and have zero regrets. The price they fetched is and was ridiculous.
i sold a couple of Cameras in my collection , one of them being the Mamiya 7 and also my T2, probably at the peak. The T2 had to be fixed twice already and i did not trust it anymore. I keept the pieces i love shooting the most (Hassy, Xpan , FM3a) and will probably keep these forever.
Having worked at both a camera store that sold only digital cameras and second hand camera store that sold everything under the sun. I can say the overall market is in a strange place. Covid didn't help the situation, people bought an insane amount of digital cameras, film, and film cameras. A lot people who weren't able to travel just used that money on gear. Anything popular, Leica, Contax, etc. would just sell. The prices shot through the roof and hasn't really cooled until recently. Film labs here are still getting insane amount of people developing, film cost is still crazy except B&W. Overall sales in 2023 on film gear has slowed down hard compared to 2020 - 2022. Having gone to a variety of camera shows, even antique markets the overall people buying is slowed down significantly. Not only is there less people showing, less sellers are showing up as well. Only the collectable items, select focal lengths (35mm), fast lens, or cheap items sell easily. The market has been flooded with too much of everything (digital & film) combined with price of film is gating people out of film photography. A lot are switching to mirrorless cameras. Mirrorless has become so much cheaper now (lots of second hand & cheap new generation digital), and you can adapt vintage lens to them. If the economy get worse, the market will be heavily flooded with cheap equipment further killing the market.
TLDR: Too much equipment (film + digital), not enough film, high film cost, film labs are swamped with developing orders, slowed market, bad economy mixed in = strange market.
I think you are right on all points. Some cities and even countries did a "shut down" thing in 2020 and at the same time handed out money. I think people sat around buying camera gear on ebay! Photography is something you can do alone in the middle of nowhere. Film prices (especially color) are becoming out of reach for all but the most dedicated, as is color processing and even chemicals even you do your own. People have begun switching their digital gear to mirrorless and that seems to be eating up a lot of their camera/photo budgets. Me? I mostly buy older camera gear-1900 to 1960, which isn't in demand. Being non-electronic I think it will last longer. The big store with me is I've gone "heavy" into wet plate using 19th C. gear. It's pretty cheap to shoot and a lot of fun! Wet plate era lenses have sky rocketed in price over the past four or five years.
Every time a shiny new digital product comes out, film camera prices dip a bit. The new GFX camera has a $7500 USD price tag, a good example, I’ve seen the forums where people are unloading some of their high end MF gear to move to that. Not limited to fuji… saw this when the X2D came out.
I started using cameras at 12yo in 1959 when I got a Brownie Six-20 for Xmas. Film was *very expensive* for a kid my age, specially at eight frames per roll. Then, my first "serious" camera, a Pentax Spotmatic in 1968 during college got me in a new prspective. I didn't earn enough for gas, much less for film and processing! I had to shoot carefully. One of my first investments in darkroom was a Hansa steel tank, a bottle of Rodinal and fixer.
A classroom pal had an enlarger and he would let me use it until I could scrounge enough for a used Durst M300 there was gathering dust at a shop.
Of course I wasn't always _poor as a church mouse_ and since marriage I've always had a darkroom at home, commandeered broom closet, laundry room or shack.
Like everyone else, I stopped doing RA4 15 years ago and B&W in 2016 when digital barita/fiber paper became available and Epson made prints that didn't display bronzing or metamerism.
Sadly, and I want to smash my head against the wall for that, I sold my gorgeous darkroom that included a Saunders LPL 4500 Dichro and a Jobo CPE plus all the paraphernalia needed for fime archival printing for *literally* a song; keeping only the necessary stuff to keep processing my film, C41 and B&W.
Fortunately, when I mentioned I wanted to return to enlarging as I found digital photography soul-less, I have been given a lot of of valuable stuff, including a fine Durst M670 a fiber print washer and a NOVA B&W processor. Color is still hybrid as I could never get the color I get from camscanning Portra from RA4.
I love my film cameras; a Hasselblad 500 C/M two Rolleiflex TLRs, several mechanical Nikons and two film Leicas; M2 and MP.
Regularly I hit the darkroom with a couple of rolls and either camscan or enlarge what comes out.
My plans are to keep shooting film for as long as I can, even if when I travel I grab my Leica M10-R or (better still) my Fujifilm X100V plus _"28mm"_ WCL.
Ive been collecting film gear for the last year and have amassed quite the collection for almost nothing. People are willing to give it away for free or very little. I even acquired 2 Hasselblad bodies, 2 backs, and 3 lenses for next to nothing. Once I find a good repair shop to CLA my growing collection, I'll have to start spending some money on top of film and developing of course. Now I'm considering developing and scanning my own film at home. Another positive with inexpensive old gear is the ability to adapt all the lenses to modern cameras! Two new film cameras on the way to market, a Rollei 35 AF and Pentax half frame. The rabbit hole runs deep. good times! Thanks for sharing your thoughts.
I have a 4x5 ,4 MF , several 35mm , 2 Polaroids and a couple of Instax cameras. I've loved using these but the price of film along with cost of developing has just taken the fun out of using them. I could go on but I'm sure others have said much the same.
I'm genuinely glad to see the film market burst, if it truly has. While I've grown older and settled in my career, I obviously have more money to "play" with and film photography has seen the fruits of my labor. However, even with the stable income, it's hard to justify a large purchase such as a Mamiya 7 without being a professional photographer (I just shoot my family and friends) as more of a way to document life. I've been wanting to dive into medium format but with two kids, it's just not responsible haha... I know I could pick up a cheaper TLR or 6x45 camera of sorts but even then, buying into the system could be pricey. Maybe in a year or so I can responsibility jump in. I'm not so much concerned with the price of film, even now. Sure, it's much more expensive from when I first picked up film again, but I shoot as much as I can afford and every exposure is fun and worth the cost.
Try soviet then russian Lomo 166, seems a nice intro to 120 format
Interesting vid, thanks for sharing. Over here in Germany, prices have dropped too with the exemption of collectors items. A M4-2 picks a higher price than say, a M2 or M3. Mint or excellent cameras pick high prices. Rolleiflex TLR prices have dropped, except white faces, Aurum etc. - collectors stuff again. The SL66 keeps high too. Hasselblads are high and stagnating. Film prices are approaching an uncomfortable level and I believe reasonably priced films are much needed to keep analog photography going.
New professional gear? Don’t know, we haven’t seen many new wet plate cameras in a long time, did we? Fashion changes and as long as there was a lot of cheap gear out there and film all around, it was easy to get into analog photography, now experimenting is costly! As someone who has never stop with film photography I tend to do more medium format, as it gives me a quality I don’t find so easy in digital. What I find myself doing less is just hanging out with a 35mm rf and shooting about.
I started with film photography in the mid-1980s, lost interest for a while, then I went back into it in the late 1990s, even resisting digital until about 2006. I shot both film and digital from 2006 to about 2015. At that point, finding good local photo lab or even film had become problematic. I was happy to see film photography become popular again in later years. As I have a good film camera collection, I wasn't interested in looking for used film cameras. But the stupid price increase of both film rolls and film development has seriously kept me away from getting back into film photography. I don't shoot professionally or commercially, so the current costs of film photography are simply too high to make it a worthwhile endeavour. And I surely notice price increases all over the used market, even for cameras that weren't particularly expensive brand new. eBay listings lately put me in a state of "I don't know whether to cry or laugh" - a body-only Canon A-1 offered at triple the price I paid mine in 2008 WITH a 50mm ƒ1.4…
And thank you for bringing up the problem with camera wear and aging. While I would consider buying a LENS for 2,000 euros, I wouldn't certainly spend that money on a Mamiya 7, or a Contax T2. I have a few acquaintances who did, and sorely regretted it when those cameras broke down after a few months. Because not only is the available number of film cameras shrinking, but even more problematic is finding spare parts. Some cameras, some expensive cameras, are becoming basically unrepairable for this reason. And sometimes even having the repairable ones serviced or repaired isn't really worthwhile given the costs (there are also fewer and fewer repair professionals, so it's not unusual having to send the broken camera to other parts of the world to get it repaired). I honestly have no idea for how long this film photography resurgence is going to last. It really doesn't look sustainable in the medium-long term, unless something positively unexpected happens.
Apologies for the verbosity. Cheers! //Rick
Thanks ❤❤❤
here in italy the whole film resurgeance has been really slow, so i have not seen such prices for certain cameras compared to others, we do have certain tools and specific cameras that are getting really rare on our 2nd hand market, but funny enough, scanners for us are incredibly rare and desireable, i have 2 cameras on sale basically in a website dedicated to 2nd hand market and i have not sold them in a quite long time actually
talking about the film prices... for me it will never really stop shooting film, but i do consider a lot now mostly for color film what and when i'm gonna shoot it, for B&W no worries since it's in general cheaper, i develop and even enlarge my own pictures so cost for each photo is way less and much more manageable, but i will have to bother and pay attention to when use certain rolls more than other times, and also yeah, shoooting less in case. i will not stop shooting film but i will moderate myself quite a bit
Thanks. Not much to add. Excellent analysis. My filmshop in Switzerland told me they are seeing more and more young people buying film. But mainly the disposable stuff. The people in the shop have a feeling that is is somehow a fashion in a certain group to use the phone AND a cheap film camera for special events. Development always comes with standard scans and sometimes one set of standard prints. I now only have one one digital camera which is weather proof and a few non electronic film cameras (not counting the built-in light-meter). I keep the 120 and 135 cameras mainly for sentimental reasons. In reality, I only use the weather sealed digital and the Leica MP. I have just returned from a week in Prague. The weather forecast was fine, so I only took the Leica. Traveling light is important on trains, because you have all your stuff with you. But comfortable and CO2 friendly and arriving in the centre of the city.
What bothers me is the price and availability of film and the places where cameras can be serviced. Not the market of film cameras. But I can imagine this is different for many others.
I enjoy shooting 4x5 and medium format. Film lives!
Same here, I have primarily moved to digital FF for color 35mm equivalent. I shoot BW 35mm, but everything else is now medium and large format, because of the negative size advantage and less scanning.
I don't shoot as much film as I use to because I am too busy developing everyone else's film. Yes, I am a film lab and also a reseller of film. I have noticed a drop off in business and with having the cheapest prices in the United States it's got me worried. But also enjoying the reduced workload, gives me sometime to shoot more film.
When I started to shoot film 3 years ago I've always wanted a Yashica T4, but they were around 600€ and now I'm thinking about getting one for half the price. I feel happy about being able to get one, but now I feel the future of film is so uncertain..
Bought a Leica Q and my M4 has been collecting dust since. I’ll keep it for the odd b&w roll. But have surprisingly been enjoying shooting digital much more than I thought.
I'm semi-retired, and I can't afford film and processing anymore. I've been dumping most of my film cameras. I'm buying more digital equipment.
Hi Nico ,I have gone back to using film cameras. I have just purchased 2 Nikon Fs, one black and the other chrome. I also purchased a Gossen Lunar Pro ,going back to the old way so I can perfect my photography skill instead of a camera making all the decisions. I also own a Nikon d700 great camera but way too complicated for me to master. Recession in prices maybe, but it's the film costs that will never come down that's for sure. I am going to purchase some expired 35mm film lots, I have of course purchased a lot of new 35mm and will be experimenting with both .Love your show ,watch every one .Jeff NYC
I think it's mainly the price of film that's causing the downturn in larger format cameras. I'd love to purchase something in that format but my budget doesn't allow me. I've halved the amount of rolls of film I shoot per year since prices have increased. I don't see myself shooting it in the next year or so if it continues. Not viable
Hi Nico. Greetings from the Pacific Northwest. I think we are still inured with the price trajectories of the iconic cameras, whether they be the Mamiya 7, the T2, or the XPAN. How much of the inflation is due to "being cool", or genuinely wanting to shoot film. Personally, I own three Hasselblads (all used), and a Leica R4. I bought these long before the renaissance of film. They provide a personal satisfaction that is more endearing than the 5D4, which I also have. While I lament the demise of Velvia and the like (I used to shoot Agfachrome way back when), I only hope this increased interest in film will keep manufacturers in business. For now, it's Ektar and Ilford, while I can still afford it.
Hi,
Ari on Shoot on Film here on YT recently did a comparison of film prices now and in the 90thies. Surprisingly some film is now cheaper than back then!
Getting in to film photography now is far more cheaper than when I bought my first Nikon. You can get a good Nikon F for about 500 euro's including a 50 mm f2 (I know, I know it is used but it is good for another 50 years). 500 euro's is about 1100 guilders (old money before 2002). In 1973 (about the last of the F's where sold new) it cost, body only, about a 1000 guilders. Most of us could not afford this, It was more than a months salary. 500 euros nowadays is about 1/3 monthly salary or less.................
Would have loved to hear what your thoughts on Ricoh Pentax's new film camera that they've talked about.
Very well said I think. For example, I will sell my Mamiya 7 and buy Fuji GW690 with TTArtisan shoe meter and I will have something left for quite a lot of film to me, seems like logic compromise...few years back I have been selling way more cameras in general, also 'nicer' cameras...but last two/three years I am seeing more and more people seeking for more budget friendly options like FM over FM2 or maybe F100 over F5 (I mainly work with Nikons as they are lovely and still, can be found excellent ones for good prices) and all kinds of mid range cameras. I feel like simpler AF bodies are becoming more and more popular lately. Also, the repairability of high end gear can be sometimes a problem, I have had several cases when for example Mamiya 6 body came in after 3 other repairmen refused to work on camera due to lack of spares etc. Or finding rewind lever for Bessa R body is pretty funny thing to do, as I learnt. On the other hand, cheaper film is not all that bad. Shoot the Foma 200 as 125 , shoot the Fp4 at box speed and compare = surprised? Or simple be hardcore, sell the other car and buy film gear. Wear same shirt more times, get a second job to buy film. It sounds weird, but for example I am developing BW for other people so I can throw my rolls in also. There is still a way that fits our needs. I am bad at expressing my thoughts about this honestly, but I think there is logic if you think about it.
I've been selling on eBay for about 3 years now, and I definitely see the decrease in prices. 2 years ago, a F3 with a 50mm 1.4 in good shape would be a $400 camera now it's more like $350-300. Good for new users, bad for my side business.
Yes! I'm seeing Leica film cameras dropping in price and Leica digital cameras going up in price. I just bought a Leica M9 with a replaced sensor glass for just over $3K. When you factor in film cost vs. not having to buy film, the price of an M9 is not bad at all. BTW I'm loving my M9 so far.
Got a MP240 myself for a similar reason. I started out with the M6 and still run rolls through it weekly, but getting that MP240 definitely helped cut down on film prices for me. Congrats on the M9!
@@nathanhoefert thanks enjoy the M240
Unless Kodak gets a competitor in the film market, prices are never going down. In fact, they will get higher. Just as there is a finite number of used film cameras out there, there are a finite number of film enthusiasts out there. Most people who are going to get into photography are not going to want to deal with the bother or the expense of film photography. This means there will never be enough of a consumer base to create an overwhelming demand for film. The demand will top out soon, that means prices are never coming down.
The pricing model is getting to be the same as for luxury goods.
Good points, thanks!
I am drifting more towards my 100% manual Pentax K1000, and Rolleicord Vb - because I can do basic servicing on those.
The smoking guns are the all-plastic SLR's from the 1990's, those things will be overpriced paperweights before too long!
Yeah, Im mostly all mechanic, cant seem to walk away from P&S.
I rock the pentax MX and Yashica Mat 124g. Both amazing and full manual/mech. I don’t want anything else
It's always MMM for me - mechanic, metal, manual. These cameras can be easily maintained and repaired and will work for you for decades to come, if you are able to use a screwdriver.
Nikon F2, Fuji GW690iii, Polaroid 635cl and a gfx50R...I think I have a pretty balanced collection haha
Definitely noticed 6x9 & 6x7 cameras dropping in price but 645 seems to be quite stable (or going slightly up). I’m putting it down to film prices and people realising that they really don’t need the higher resolution.
i am shooting more than ever but i also shoot digital for work and use film as a break.
I use my Pentax Spotmatic without a battery using a Leningrad selenium exposure meter.
There is a trend for using ccd sensor digital cameras to achieve the film look.
Cheap to buy and free to use.
I use a Canon Ixus 100s which is shirt pocketable.
My 4x5 gets very little use now and has become a shelf ornament now.
A roll of black and white 120 costs about the same as a burger and large fries. Developing costs pennies per roll if you do it yourself. I recommend Ilford film and chemicals, guaranteed high quality at an affordable price. It can take me all day to shoot 10 frames 6x7 on my RB67, I can eat a burger and fries in 30 minutes. Used camera prices overshot for a while due to panic buying and limited supply, now the market is settling. Buy an all mechanical camera because it only wears out when you use it, unlike electronically controlled cameras that can spontaneously go pop anytime. Mechanical cameras can be fixed, Electronically controlled cameras can only be fixed if replacement electronic modules are available, which usually aren't. So buy wise and shoot film. A days walk with an RB is more fun and a lot healthier than a burger and large fries.
How many digital cameras end up in the trash? All of them,
How many mechanical Leica's end up in the trash?. None of them.
Think about it.
This is the very reason why I bought a Leica M3, I also purchased from KEH because it was tested and everything worked. 8 months in and the camera works perfectly almost like it’s only a few years old. Also if something does go wrong I can send it to Leica or one of several independent repair techs here in the USA. I did notice that it does appear that on certain M6 models KEH actually has dropped the price by a few hundred bucks, I may pull the trigger on one if they do go down because I would not mind having the 28mm frame lines.
@@fibonacho yeah I would not sell to them. Prob would prob try a sell trade Facebook group, marketplace or eBay. But I would never sell back to them. But in my case I am not intending to sell it ever unless I get into some situation where it’s unavoidable.
I imagine if someone purchased during the boom they might want to sell before it goes way down. Or sell high and buy low next time. Great content I was wondering the state of the analog world.
I’m also not sold on digital being cheaper than film….. yes, once you spent a fortune on a digital camera, a computer & apps to process it, a printer & scanner, etc -that ain’t cheaper!!
A decent and reliable film camera ( that most of us will pick) and a few rolls of film and paid processing, are still way cheaper than most new decent digital cameras. Of course if you can do your own darkroom processing ….. which I see more people getting into ….. it’s even less expensive over time.
Of course the big exception is smartphone cameras, which are generally produce cheap but pretty good photos! Of course unless you copy & print digital photos…. The day will come when the technology will change to the point where saved digital images could no longer be accessed and preserved ( think of images on floppy disks…. Where are they now?!)
Nice observations and thoughts! Thanks
Ha pasado casi un año desde la ultima vez que compre film. Aun tengo mis camaras pero el aumento de precio de los carretes y costos de revelado lo han vuelto un gusto prohibido. Como la mayoria de mis objetivos son pentax / m42 decidi comprar una camara pentax digital para poder tomar fotos a color.
I have started to shoot 4x5 and now glad I do because now I make every shot count im deliberate on how I focus and what film I shoot. I develope all my film and scan it in have done color negative, black and white, also color reversal. When people complain about price I just think either they never had a hobby before this because its just like having guns the cost of ammo and materials for cleaning and upgrading parts, then there is people that have RC plains, cars, or boats. They have all kinds of costs so compared to a hobby film is not that far off on prices and is reasonable for its cost nowadays since all the companies are trying to build up there customer base unlike other hobbies. This is what has changed since film no longer became the main way photos were created and with only so many taking this back up you need to rethink how you want to proceed with your photography. For me film is both rewarding for the work I put in and makes it worth every bit when I develope my photo.
Thanks for the commentary, I think there is a lot of truth here. What a difference between 2021 and now! Film prices have risen and camera prices have been falling. I don’t think that large format is as hot of a format as it was even 2 years ago, the problem with large format is not only cost of film, but to my knowledge, there are no lenses being made.
Maybe what I am going to say is not useful, but it is related to the high end segment lf the market. I have a 4x5, which I very seldom use, and a Bronica ETRS. Most of my work, which is professional, goes with digital cameras. About a year ago I bought from other photographer a Phase, and I use it on studio and sometimes on location (I also use other digitals). I usually have the Bronica in the car, but it does not go out that often and I don’t repeat the shots. Maybe I should have a Mamiya RZ so that the size of the negatives helped, but the easiest thing would be that the same high end camera could take film and digital backs and have decent scanners available. Yes, there are the Fkextigthts and the Heidelbergs but they are no longer manufactured so in the end most of the professional work keeps going digital.
I live in Japan and this has absolutely been the case this year, with a few exceptions. Hasselblad 500 CM and the lenses have not gone down. They've held steady. Mamiya RB67s and Mamiya 645 Pro have gone up. Leica M, Leica R... down. The M3 & M6 are down significantly. Down close to ¥100,000. I think this is going to continue, at least a little more. I think the reason here is the demand. The cheaper camera bodies are all selling. Canon film bodies, Nikon film bodies (probably have seen the most growth), affordable TLRs. It's all about price. There's still an interest in film photography - but Le's keep it real, digital is still king (at least in Japan)- but people aren't dropping big money on the higher end gear exactly like you said. Two years ago, a year ago... all people wanted here were Leica rangefinders. It's completely changed in 2023.
Thank you for posting.
I only buy camera gear from Japan. It's relatively easy to find mint condition photographic equipment there that I know will be truly mint.
As for camera prices, it really depends on what one is looking for.
For example, I purchased a Fuji Fujinon C 600 mm F/11.5 lens in a Copal #3 shutter new for under $1,400 many years ago. That same lens today selling in Japan in mint condition is now selling for nearly $4,000.
The problem is that sought-after film camera gear is no longer being made. As this gear ages and falls into disrepair, prices will go back up due to continued demand and a lack of supply.
@@chesslover8829 I agree 100% with what you’re saying regarding the longer term outlook of what the market will look like moving forward as we lose parts.
But I think some areas of photography, like large format, will possibly see big declines because there are going to be less people practicing it. That is, unless, some of these newcomers to film stick and start migrating towards that end of the field.
I’m not sure if they will and if they’ll want to invest beyond your basic 150mm lens and one wide set-up.
I hope they do! I think large format is amazing. But as someone who got back into film during the wave 5 years ago and saved a little bit on prices, I find anything beyond 4x5 too prohibitive as far as the gear cost, film cost and processing to ever move beyond my 4x5 camera because the costs there will probably never decrease.
I imagine there’s a lot of others in the same boat.
@allen_snapped The cost of large format is high, and it requires a dedication to the craft that the smaller film formats don't require. Large format cameras began to go out of style when role film cameras first appeared. Nowadays, digital cameras rule, especially those housed in smartphones. During my last trip to Europe, for example, I only saw one or two photographers using a traditional digital camera. Everyone else was using smartphones to take pictures.
It’s hard to disagree with what was said above, but there is one thing about reducing the format for the sake of saving - two years ago I switched to a large format from a medium just to save money. In first, you can allocate a certain amount of film for a specific shooting, and the situation will not arise that you have to wait half a year until you shoot the rest of the roll. Secondly, for a large format it is easier to find expired technical film, and most importantly, Xray film, which is very cheap and will always be available.
I'm still waiting ( and probably will forever) for the day a camera maker comes out with a 35mm digital/film hybrid. Replacable backs that hold the sensor or a flip of a switch hides the sensor, something along those lines.
Hassey has come close but the price is huge.
I love my Hasselblad 500CM and I would love to keep on shooting with it daily, but the film and developing prices have broke my back, therefore I've switched to Fujifilm Xt-5 for my daily shots and I switch every now and then, and shoot with the Hasselblad as an extra treat. but I don't want to limit my creativity because of the pricing and inflation, and I think living a hybrid creative life has been the right answer for me!
Prices for film bodies are tanking but film lens are rocketing in price as mirrorless allows for easy adaptation of old lens.
There are two main groups of people here. Those who have bought into the hype in the last 2-4 years and then those who have been shooting on film for years. I'm in the latter group. When I was a student I used to shoot on cheaper SLRs like the OM-2 or OM-4 and dreamed of the OM-3Ti / OM-4Ti. I had a beat up Pentax 6x7 and dreamed of a Mamiya 7. The moment I started working after school, I started making my dreams come true. One by one. Sure, in 2010 I was buying color film for 2-4 euros, most film cameras cost half of what they do today. But I don't really care. If I was in the first group of people, I would have dealt with the prices, switched to cheaper solutions or stopped shooting film. I don't take cameras as an investment, I take it as a hobby and I don't care if my Mamiya 7 costs 1500 EUR less in two years. If I buy some overpriced new electronics, I'm guaranteed that in two years it will be worth half at most, maybe even less. And it's also pretty much guaranteed that the thing will last 3 years max and then a new one will be bought. The Mamiya 7 is an amazing camera, and it will be amazing even if it costs €1000 or €5000 and I keep it forever. Same with the OM-3Ti or the Rollei QZ. I think all enthusiasts will be quite relieved when this hype is over and the wannabe enthusiasts find another hobby. I will support companies like Kodak as long as I can.
Here in south korea situations are similar. I just scroll through local camera shops and marketplaces every now and then and there certainly is a price drop. Hasselblad V cameras, Mamiya 7 and RZ, Pentax 67, even the Leicas(especially classic m6 and m7) are loosing their values quite a lot. And also many more of rare/collectable items cost more than a car such as Leica M6J, 35mm summilux steel rim, 35mm summilux aa, titanium leicas are out in the market compared to few years ago. But still, many of the vintage leica glasses retain their value pretty well(or even still goes up) since they can also be used on modern leicas without any barrier.
I’ve seen the RB’s pretty cheap used. Like really cheap. I just bought a Mamiya AFD II because of my failing eyes - my Rolleis and most everything I have I’ve had to get from Japan as they have way more mint cameras there than we do here, but the new Mamiya I got from the US where I am, so less for shipping and tariffs for a change.
Concordo consigo . Em Portugal e na europa em geral os preços do filme , devido á procura tem subido a pique, levando muita gente a desistir do hobbie . As camaras também disparam de preço e tem pessoas e casas comerciais que começam a pedir preços por camaras com 30 ou 40 anos com problemas conhecidos no mercado exorbitantes.
No Porto (onde vivo) os preços aumentaram 2x/3x face há 5/6 anos (quando comecei neste hobby). As lojas de fotografia têm preços exorbitantes por filme (15€ por APX por exemplo) e começam a haver câmaras de lente fixa, pseudo-descartáveis, por 70/80€. É incompreensível e extremamente desencorajador
The bargains nowadays are early digitals.
Like a hundred bucks for a Nikon D200 with an 18-200 lens.
Some have really low shutter counts as well.
I think the problem is that each of us owns 25 cameras so each time just one of us quits we've flooded the market by ourselves...
Now that is true! I had 30, down to 20!
This is something that did not occur 30+ years ago, except in rare cases. Yes, there have always been collectors in the world, but generally speaking people did not tend to hoard things the way so many do today. The Internet has provided both the gateway for the desire and the outlet for the purchasing. It's a powerful combination that many just can't resist.
Yes, I have noticed it to, but for buyers, it can be a good thing, esp. as the lack of studios, means the 'pro' gear is getting down to prices that the rest of us can afford, but Yes, it is a shame all those excellent camera makers are not around anymore, so the quality in the products isn't there anymore, just plastic and aluminium, no real metal like the nikon f3 used to be. lets just hope people come around and someone starts a new brand, a major player, which can keep the 'character' of film photography alive.
I completely stopped shooting film now. I haven’t shot film in, I don’t know 2 years. I don’t even remember the last time. But I ah went sold my gear, Mamiya 645 Pro TL and Mamiya RZ67 Pro II. I have a ton of lenses, even bought one for the 645 about two months ago.
I bought 3 Rollifelex TLR’s from about august 2022 to May of 2023 and I haven’t found the prices dropped since then. They seem to hold their value. I paid $2500 for my Mamiya AFD II with 80mm lens (USA), condition is maybe an 8 out of 10. Shot a test roll and all was good. Not sure how that price is but new was around 4 grand I think with lens
There are a handful of cameras that will always hold their value. Hasselblad 500 series, certain Rollieflex TLR's, certain Leica M film cameras, Mamiya RB67, et cetera. If it's mechanical and can be serviced it will hold its value.
I saw the prices on Mamiya 645 pro and supers had come down so I got one, thinking I could sell my 645 1000S. But the prices on those have come down too so there's not a lot of money to be regained there
Here in Canada, camera prices are pretty stable. Now on the film and chemistry front, things are getting, interesting. If you insist on shooting Kodak Portra stock (160,400 and 800) and what Kodak and Fuji Slide film is in stock, yeah, this hobby/passion is going to get expensive quick. There are colour film alternatives, Atlanta Film Co, sells re-spooled motion picture Ektachrome Slide film for $14.99 USD, they and othe companies are respooling Eastman Kodak Vision ECN2 stock, XX black and white film film (great stuff BTW) and Aerocolor IV not to mention what Lomography is marketing. The one fly in the ointment metaphorically speaking is Sino Promise no longer makeing photo chemistry for the North American market. Even then, nature abhores a vacuum and alternatives already exist. You have to shop smart in this day and age, and that's ok.
There are many large format and pinhole cameras that are being made new today at reasonable prices!
I have a rollei 35 and the oriinal pen that im keeping and the rest are up for sale. I hardly shoot film at all anymore and am just keeping these to shoot a roll or two per year. Kodak and the lab prices have killed it for me. I use powergrades in davinci to emulate film as much as possible on raw files and dont look at what i shoot when im shooting. just to have a film like experience on digital
Too many film cameras are becoming junk because they can't be repaired at a reasonable price. Here in Western Australia it can be MINIMUM $300 just to get an ESTIMATE assuming parts can be found.
I never stopped shooting film and I’m in my fifties now.
I have all the different 35 mm and 6x7 camera systems assembled I wanted to try so I am not in the market for more. There are some irrationally priced lenses like the Pentax 67 105/2.4 or Canon SSC lenses that I see sitting around for a few years now in some stores. The cinema crowd has those cornered but there are adapters now that can simulate a Canon or other vintage look quite nicely. Many have cameras now so focus is on trying different film, developing and scanning. New user that bought in the last 2-3 years just need to get enough experience to see where they want to go next. Most I know use both film and digital often with vintage lenses.
Pentax has a project to release a new film camera, who knows if they’ll eventually do it.
I think the bubble is starting to burst as far as gear prices. Those who got into film because it was cool etc, realized that it is a lot of work to do it all yourself and quite expensive for a lab to do it for you. I'm happy prices are going down as I recently purchased a 8 x 10 enlarger for a decent price. I don't complain about film prices as I'm grateful to still be able to use it.
I bought a Pentax MX for 180€ a year ago. Now there are 3 pcs of them at Kamerastore +300€. Something is happening to the price of these 35mm cameras?
I have not shoot much film in the last 10 years. That said ai kept a few film cameras just in case I decide to shoot film once again. I still have my CAnon EOS 1N-HS , Pentax ME, Ricoh TLS and a Konica Autoreflex TC Camera . Sold my Mamiya 645E, Pentax K1000 and Nikon f100. At times I regret selling any😅 of them. I still have some film in the refrigerator probably beyond any reasonable expiration date.