What I hate most about AoS was that it REPLACED Warhammer Fantasy. Why not have it alongside WF as a way of getting people into the hobby, while leaving regular Warhammer alone for all the fans that were already here?
They very likely just didn't have the resources (since sales were flagging) to start *another* miniature line, so then needed to rip off the band-aid and make the change. When I line is selling poorly, you don't keep it and add another line. Thanks for watching!
Tabletop Minions They still are reselling the old models, so why not just keep the fluff since they're still selling the models under a different name?
I agree with what you're saying. I used to play a lot of warhammer fantasy while growing up and I have a large chaos army in a box in the basement. When my children got older I wanted to introduce them to miniature gaming and for a long time I tried to find a game that was simple enough for an eight year old to learn. When AOS was released last summer I quickly realised it was the perfect introduction game for them. Now six months later we are building terrain together and painting miniatures and are having a great time playing the game. So yes I think this was the right move for games workshop.
+Pär Lindström I do not like AoS at all, but I love hearing that you got your children super passionate about miniature wargaming. I guess that I, as a 30 year old, fall outside of GW's target demographic.
+Reb Brown i can understand that AOS doesn't fit everyone. but as a 40+ parent that don't have too much time to spend on this it works really great. also you can play a battle in an hour or two which is about as much time as you can get your children to focus. but I'd love to see that GW maybe released som advanced rules for AOS as well, so it could appeal to more.
+Pär Lindström This story is spectacular, and exactly what I was talking about! I'm so glad that you've been able to get your kids into wargaming with something like this. Good on you, and thanks for watching!
Tabletop Minions well I'm glad too cause now I have a very good excuse to play cause it counts as quality time with my children. The only thing I really think GW does wrong is the lack of female miniatures. This actually nearly put my daughter off the whole thing. Luckily I could buy some female characters that I found on the net. Not from GW though.
+Pär Lindström Too bad that Battle Sisters haven't got a real treat since a long while, and that 40K its far more complex. However, remember that Elvin armies have a good selection of female miniatures. Some of my favourite ones among the whole Fantays range are the Sisters of the Thorn and the Sisters of Avelorn, meanwhile both lines have really detailed eagles and horses; HE have a lion chariot and WE have Glade Riders, which have riders of both genders, and as a whole army have way more female models. It's not uncommon to see that the few female players often tend to be attracted towards Elvin armies, which have some of the more aesthetic miniatures in the whole GW selection.
The problem lots of people, including myself have, is that AoS is not really a reboot or a change of warhammer fantasy, it is it's destruction and replacement. It just is not the same game, they just turned it into 40k, right down to including space marines. It's just that simple, GW no longer makes Warhammer Fantasy and Warhammer 40k, its 40k and the other 40k. I can see you'd be interested if you were a 40k player, if you preferred 40k already then obviously AoS is more up your street.The people who played fantasy over 40k did so because fantasy was a wargame, not a skirmish game, you were actually fielding an army worth the name, and you felt like a general when you played. AoS does not, and never will, scratch that itch. Imagine if your favourite car manufacturer just said ''yeah, the whole car thing, that's done, we're only making monster trucks now. But hey, give our monster trucks a chance, they're really good''. A monster truck cannot satisfy my need for a car, no matter it's merits.
while age of sigma has worse lore than Warhammer fantasy, game wise it's a lot better. it's far easier for new players to learn the rules and jump in than Warhammer fantasy
Luckily you can still play 8th edition all you want my friend! can't buy new models and rules, no, but if you were a player, and needed to scratch a little itch, it's still there ; )
I'm sure there's scope for getting new models, Ian; sure, it's difficult if you're playing Bretonnia or Tomb Kings and want to expand, but you could always invest in Fireforge Games' models for Bretonnians or spruce up/proxy some Vampire Counts units for Tomb Kings, I suppose. As for surviving armies you could put them on third-party square bases or even just rank them up on the round bases as best you can. Not the best solution, I know, but I'd hardly say that WHFB players have been robbed of expansion opportunities.
As a bret player it is a pain in the ass, fortunately I can thank fireforge games, darkzone miniatures and Perry miniatures for their awesome models. There are people out there that have made the 9th age aswell which raises my spirit and hope that humanity isn't completely lost.
+Jack the critic Easier =/= better. Why not have AoS alongside Fantasy so that those who enjoy a complex wargame can play Fantasy, while more casual relaxed people can play AoS.
Destruction of the old world? Agreed, that was a shitty thing to do. New lore? Subjective, some people like low fantasy some people like off-the-wall fantasy.
Forever angry. I don't mind the rules changes or the marketing shift, that's all smart and good and I applaud the business move, but did they *have* to murder the entire goddamn world and invalidate thirty-some years of fluff in one go? It doesn't help that The End Times was a very unsatisfying scenario from a fan's perspective, but the bottom line is they burned away the entire setting and started fresh with something that at its core, isn't Warhammer any more.
Because it was needed to to introduce such a huge change! And DUH, of course this isn't warhammer anymore, to begin with it doesn't even figure in the title, go figure.
Gotchaed on that one, considering our meta unanimously says AoS (unlike the odd case of W40k being mentioned from time to time rather than just 40k.). Still it's not warhammer anymore. That place blew to kingdom come and civilization has bloomed. No it would have not worked in the old setting.. It's not something just about the rules: the setting, the approach, and structure of the new miniatures. But let's go for the rules: do you think that they'd have tolerated those rules with such a strong connection still remaining to the old method? It's called burning the ships or sunken costs: they destroyed the Old World because they wanted to make the change permanent and after this there's no way back (which, make no mistakes, would have happened with the setting still intact).
Not sure we'll ever agree about that, since one of my local GW blokes recommended I should just use the rules to continue playing with what I already had to bulk up my forces before 'properly transitioning', and also apparently bits and pieces of the Old World still exist intact within Sigmar's new nightmare realm of nonsense (who knew the Big Sig was a chaos god?). That sounds awfully like not burning *all* the ships just in case to me, which is even more deplorable. I guess my response here to GW's contempt for their existing Fantasy players is a polite "Well fuck you very nice, I'm taking my money elsewhere" I still have a copy of the old (real) Warhammer and cheap third-party minis/paint aren't hard to come by...
The only piece "intact" is mallus which is a huge ass asteroid made of remnants of the explosion resulting from the old world's death. Sigmar isn't a chaos god, he's the avatar of Azyr and thus he's a god in that "realm" as everything can be shaped to his will there. There's, truth be told, people who have inherited cultures of the Old World but this could be more seen as Sigmar being nostalgic and trying to recreate what was lost. Right now the setting is gone, almost everyone from there is gone, with only a few people and "remnants" (generally souls, 99.9999% of the time) having drifted around. Well, good for you to have real Warhammer... Fantasy Battles. I won't force you to play the real Warhammer Age of Sigmar. Still think it was for the best.
I think there is an ever stronger recent theme of GW introducing new entry products to make their games more accessible from a cost perspective. As well as the re-tooling of WFB as AoS there are the "start collecting" boxed sets for WH40K and AoS, Betrayal at Calth (contains a decent sized Marine army for 30K or 40K for £95 or insert preferred local currency here) and now the new Deathwatch game (more specialised but still a good number of miniatures for the cost). Economics suggest this should work as they are trying to build market share, particularly given they seem to have have been more focused on upping the average cost per sale recently (look at all those big plastic superheavies of recent vintage......). Will it work is the next question? Perhaps, they are also investing heavily in free to play mobile gaming to broaden the brand appeal, I'll be reading this year's annual report with interest.
At first sorry for my english? its not my native. I think make a mistake. As you said cost to play WhFB(in my country at least) was preaty high, but why destroy old grim FB and create fairy tale of Sigmar? WhFB was about playing armies, they can create free WhFB skirmish rules for 5-10 models based on main rules. So any one can buy box of orks and play with friend who bought box of rats. And there were a lot less problem with comunity. I played wargames earlier(before wh) miniatures was ugly rules are too simple(warrior with sword in fullplate have same stats as warrior in mail with axe) i liked to write some stories about it. When i first came to local miniatures shop i liked both WhFB and 40k worlds and miniatures. I whanted to buy and play High Elves and Eldar, but i was a student at that time. But when i finally got some free money they destroyed WhFB. FB was cool it can be any thing from simple good-evil wars to some grey situations(good vs good). But AoS looks like a fairy tale(yes miniatures is cool not all but cool). I have no interest in AoS lore. If i buy some miniatures from AoS onely to plase it on rack(cabinet i mean). And now i wont buy 40k, im afraid that all ends with another AoS. GW make a mistake.
Age of Sigmar positives: - Great models - Nice prices - Good for tabletop and the game Age of Sigmar Negatives: - It killed Fantasy - Mediocre to bad lore? (Is improving)
I completely agree with everything you said. I was that 12 year old kid, the one with the screw loose that even when they said "yeah this is going to cost you x and you need l,m,n,o,p first" wasn't turned off. But I was always a hobbyist first because everything was so cool I never managed to buy enough stuff to play a game. As an adult I turned to 40k, but to be honest the competitive scene (and complicated rules) meant that I never had fun playing, so back I was to just painting. AoS has brought new life back to miniatures for me, I can buy whatever i like because it's cool, I don't need to have X% troops and whatever, I can then roll some dice and have some fun with other like minded people who don't take it too seriously. IMO 40k is the GW's option for the miniature 'power gamer', AOS is the hobbyist's game for painters and collectors who also want to play a game.
+Mike Latter "40k is the GW's option for the miniature 'power gamer', AOS is the hobbyist's game for painters and collectors who also want to play a game" I think you hit it right on the head, and I'm glad you're getting back into playing with Age of Sigmar. Thanks for watching!
That is unjust and forgetting history, however. In essence, you are saying that it's good that it's easy and silly now because you don't take it too seriously. But, it's a tabletop wargame, it's meant to be quite serious and complicated. Warfare is, and the creator of wargaming (H. G. Wells) made it quite serious and complicated. Fantasy is meant to be Fantasy, not AoS. He would be ashamed to see kids in the 21st-century grumbling about the enterprise we have built, wanting it to be easy and frivolous. I agree, that option should be there for you, of course, it should, but, that shouldn't be the thing itself, thus forcing all of us to play the way you want to play and view it the way you view it. This is one of the biggest problems people have with AoS. It's not as much a tabletop war game now and it has lost some of its strategy.
I don't see how your opinion of it makes it so or can be true. Both Fantasy and 40k are, or were, for the miniature 'power gamer', and painter and collector. They should be on equal footing, more or less, and yet have the flexibility to mould to both player types without casting one aside, they should both be serious whilst remaining a fun game. It is about balance, and it's not rocket science. Well, clearly the players thought so (and GW, or the players and in turn GW). I wonder if the players (some of the players) are to blame for all the changes and not GW itself.
I definitely appreciate your explanation and clarity! I was the little child you described about 25 years ago- never had the money to get into the hobby. Now, with these sets and having had converted my wife into a RPG player, I feel like I can fulfill a childhood dream! Than you so much for the videos!
Sorry, but i just can´t get over this MONUMENTALLY STUPID AoS fluff... The whole new setting is so generic, so cookie cutter good vs. evil, boring and lifeless compared to the Old World! I bought WHFB Wood Elves because i legitimately CARED for their history and motivations! For me it was more than just painting plastic toy soldiers to play a few games...
Generic? Sorry, Old world was pretty generic. Vampires doing vampire things, dwarfs in mountains, Very very good vs evil. Chaos Uprising!! oh noooo, Sigmar ex machina saves the day!! Evil!!!! Dragon ex machina! AoS isn't mind blowing, but interconnected demon realms after the destruction of the world isn't generic persay.
AoS is generic?! You're kidding right?! WFB was generic tolkein-esque fantasy whereas AoS is going for something with a more modern sensibility. You've your stuff way backwards buddy.
DOOMED ! O.k. buddy, then please explain a few things to me: 1. What is even the purpose of fighting in the Realmworlds when nobody can die anyway? Where are the "normal people"? Why is EVERYBODY suddenly a totally overblown superhero? Why should i care if Chaos conquers some poorly thought out magical islands in space which the authors just pulled out of their asses to justify their new He-Man action figures...
+XMrSurrealisticX I loved the old world, and I am sad to see it go. But I also understand that the Old World has the benefit of 30+ years of development, while the new world is, well, new and underdeveloped. The fluff for Storm cast is actually pretty interesting, and I love the Freyslayers lore. Dwarves that take the remnants fo their dead god, forge the remnants into powerful runes, and graft the runes into their flesh so they can a small taste of their god's power for a short time is pretty wicked fluff. I also like how sigmar helped save nagash, and the forged an alliance to take on Khorn, but of course nagash betrays sigmar. Then, when sigmar tries to get his revenge against Nagash, and gives Khorn a chance to regroup after getting his butt kicked. So, there is some pretty cool stuff in there.
+XMrSurrealisticX 1.) There are plenty of mortals left that can die. In fact, this question is taking up in the first novel published, in wich a leader of a storm hosts wonders what the point is as he looks at a completely blasted land. Then, he finds a group of survivors and he realizes that there is still hope to save the mortal realms. 2.) The storm cast can be reborn, but it is a slow and painful process. Also, each time they undergo the process, they lose a bit of their humanity and memory of their past life. They spiral down into selfishness, jealousy, etc the more often they are reforged. The time it takes to reforge also means that losing a battle still has consequences. 3.) There are lots of mortals left, both good and bad. Good folk were mostly taken to Sigmar's realm and protected. Now that the realm gate wars are under way, different mortals are taking up the role of holding ground that the storm cast manage to reclaim. So, mortal humans, dwarfs, elves etc. are around hand have things to do. There are also plenty of chaos mortals around. 4.) Finally, the different realms are more a chance to play in fantastical locations, and to give players the freedom to come up with all kinds of crazy scenarios. you can play in one land where it rains acidic blood and blood geysers explode randomly, hurting people. Or, you can make up your own world. Or, you can just say the battle is taking place in an area that is largely untouched by chaos and resembles the more typical warhammer world. Don't get me wrong, I love the old warhammer world, but the new one is shapping up to be pretty neat too. I just wish the old world hadn't been discontinued.
If you think the simpler game style of age of sigmar is the correct step for GW you'd only be half right. The real smart move for them would be to simplify the rules into a booklet about the size of a codex (which is totally possible), and take steps to reduce the cost of an army to start. The reason why GW has seen a loss in people joining the game is because the cost to start an army is roughly 300$ including the rules and army books, and they're targeting 12-17 years olds. GW see themselves as the rolex of plastic, and don't understand why customers aren't buying en masse.
I buy and paint Age of Sigmar miniatures cause they are cool. The detal level is quite high even if i dont like some styles (like the simil ultra-marine...never liked 40k style). But i can understand the people that played warhammer fantasy for years and now have nothing left. Plus, the prices of miniatures are quite high compared to other companies (Avatars of War,Scibor etc...)
+lucioluciolucio85 They don't have nothing left, they can still play with their friends. It's just that they won't have anything new from now on. A lot of angry gamers forget about the fact that they can still play. Nobody forces them to play Aos if they don't want to. A lot of people always said that GW wants their money and that the hobby is too expensive, now they are free :D.
+taithays I've embraced that as a positive of the move to AOS for warhammer fantasy. Now I can have an end point in sight for my massive horde of warriors of chaos collection! Locally we have a 9th age group starting up & kings of war have army lists for the old warhammer fantasy now.
I'm writing from Italy. I could be wrong, but I think that Whfb was always more popular in Europe than it was in the US. Back in the days, in your average miniature store, Fantasy and 40k were maybe 50/50, and most of the times Fantasy was the bigger one, with 40K being the niche game. I remember I was very surprised when, on online forums, I discovered that on the other side of the ocean the situation was waay different, and that actually WHFB was a minor percentage of GW sales. We had a urban legend in the community (don't know if it's true) that if you put together all the money GW earned from Fantasy, it would still be lower than what GW earned from Space Marines alone! Anyway, back to my point, what I wanted to say is that the death of WHFB was a HUGE blow for the boardgaming community here. GW handled it extremely poorly, both economically (ah, all those people who spent hundreds of € buying End Times books..) and in a PR way. People were so fed up and angry that many simply abandoned the hobby, or started new games, like X Wings or Kings of War. Ten years ago, if you entered in a (non GW) miniature shop, 99% of the minis were Citadel miniatures, and you could see people playing GW games in every table around you, now GW games have disappeared, or if they still resists, they're the minority. It's either X wing, flames of war, kings of war, there's so much more diversity and that's a good thing for sure (I mean, before it was either Fantasy or 40k,nothing else) but GW totally lost the leadership position they used to have. I hope the Aos strategy is paying in the US, because here, in the Old World, afaik it was a huge "hole in the water" as we say here.
Making the game more accessible? Great. But despite their simplicity some of the rules are bad and they destroyed the fluff for no good reason. That's why the fans are angry.
I think the bluster has only died down because those who were upset aren't talking about it anymore. (myself included) I've played a good amount of 8th since, but I'm just tired of fighting about it. I understand a lot of the reasons to like AoS, but none of those are valuable for me. I'm just playing other games more often now.
And perhaps fighting is the wrong word. My friends who enjoy AoS have been trying to "convert me", talking to me about the games merits ad nauseum. I am just not interested. I've given it a try on multiple occasions, and I'd rather keep on playing 8th. AoS is not the game for me, and it's replaced my game at all my local gaming spots.
+Shao Kahn Is it the difference between a Skirmish game and a Rank-and-File war game that decreases your enjoyment of it? Is AoS thriving at your LGS's?
Paul Kelly It's a contributing factor. I have a wide variety of skirmish games I'd rather play. AoS is still popular at my local GW, but not at the other game stores.
+newhoped So people stopped playing because of Age of Sigmar? Did their 8th Edition rule books suddenly burst into flames or all the words fall off the pages?
Our store ran one league and had to stop since everyone hated it so much. The rules make for a shoddy skirmish game at best, so people just moved on to something else.
+newhoped Same happened in my area. Some of the new sigmar boxes sold, but only because people were using the models for conversions or too have them sit on a shelf. Some people were trying to organize games and possibly a league, but they found the game was completely incapable of balanced play hence killing peoples enthusiasm for anything, but a few one offs every month or so. Fact is Age of Sigmar can't support leagues, tournaments or even campaigns hell it feels more like a board game then a minitures game. A decent board game, but nothing I would waste more then a hour or so on a week.
This is what put me off warhammer as a kid because it was too expensive and always sounded too complicated for me. But with AoS I've been able just to jump straight into it (also helps I'm a grown ass man with my own money now)
As someone who just began getting into miniature war gaming, I do find AOS to be an easy and interesting game to play. The other editions seemed very complicated and I never understood the army books concept. Obviously, those who were accustomed to the earlier editions will find AOS to probably be too easy and unchallenging. But I figured that the new game was more for people like me who were just beginning. This was an excellently prepared video! It was Informative and really defended the other side of players. Well done Atom 👍love your videos btw!
+Ryan Gahman Thanks, I really appreciate it! I feel like I rarely actually prepare for these types of videos, so I'm glad it comes across as if I'm a prepared adult. Thanks for watching!
My Stages of Immersion into Warhammer Age of Sigmar: 1) I decided to try it because I had a lot of old fantasy sets that I bought for 40k conversions 2) On round bases, this did not contradict my 40k collection. 3) at first I made models that could also be in 40k, but then I realized that there is more freedom in Mortal Realms than 40k - after all, each model can be given a taste of its own Realm. 4) Now I am specifically looking for more old fantasy miniatures to convert them to Age of Sigmar. Think about it: millions of people have old Bretonnia, the same rows of the same model. And very few have Bretonnia on oval/round bases in a new fantastic setting. It's unique - it's better!!!
See I got into Fantasy via Mordheim, and I am still into Mordheim, I love that game. The slow death of Mordheim always irked me and though its not a dead game per se, trying to get a game of it is nigh on impossible. I eventually upgraded to a full WFB army and then got a few games in and just as I was getting into it the End Times happened and the Old World got smushed and Age of Sigmar was spawned. What irks me about AOS is the horrible way that GW killed the old world, that NEVER needed to happen. The massive over simplification and mockery of long term players that occured with the "updated" army rules. I also utterly detest the rampant and heavy handed copyrighting/trademarking of everything now i.e, its not a Dragon its a Magmaroth or its not an Orc its and Orruk, it feels like GW saying "if you aren't using our stuff you are against us." I think what I'm saying is that I can be OK with the game itself and GW still make some great minis (though the amount of Zbrush sculpts over traditional sculpted models is starting to push me away but thats another matter.) but I hate, hate, hate how they handled the transition from Old World to the Sigmarverse. Oh and yeah this stuff is still freakishly expensive.... I really need to try Frostgrave.
ok while Your Argument is a Good one I Would like to Counter with this. Why did they have to Kill Fantasy to do it, they could have put some effort into a skirmish version of fantasy or even a bridge game of fantasy into 40K that was skirmish based or even a re-release of Mordheim (skirmish version of Fantasy from 6th ED) where the most models any player Needs to have is 20 and that is only if you play Skaven or Orcs and Goblins (there might be other warbands to idk) but for most the warbands the model cap is 15 but as it stands they completely discontinued and killed off an entire game in their effort
+Isaac Hudzinski "Why did they have to Kill Fantasy to do it" That's absolutely my main point of contention. Make a new game! Make a new IP! Is GW THAT creatively bankrupt?
Because when they are trying to revitalize something that loses them money, having to versions of a game confuses new players. No game or company would do this. People don't quite grasp how much fantasy was tanking. in the end there were reports of it comprising 5%!!!! of their revenue.
I’m 51. I’ve never gamed. About two weeks ago, I saw your video on painting the Gutrot Spume, and had to find out what it was...when I saw all the Maggotkin of Nurgle, I was astonished! From there, I discovered Nighthaunts...oh, man... So, thanks for passing that bug on to me! Picked up Liekoron The Executioner to mess with, with the group of Blightkings inbound.
My main issues with AoS were the total lack of point balancing. I found the Sudden Death Objectives to be rather broken, if you have the ability to summon stuff. And the loss of Strength vs Toughness for determining wounds. I liked all the things you mentioned in this video. Those were much needed. But they could have done so while keeping the good stuff. They've thrown the Baby out with the Bathwater. The General's Handbook did fix a lot of those issues though. They would have gotten so much less hate from their loyal fans if they started with that.
Wait wait wait...You are telling me I can just pick a box of anything AOS and just play? You! Are telling me! That GW has given Free rules for both the game and the models? Not only this but the Rules are 4 pages long! I am impressed with GW. Ok So I had heard AOS came out and everyone went crazy. I heard things like they had killed off races like Dwarves or whatever. I heard that warhammer was dead and the sky was falling and even that some kid burnt an army... The amount of Butthurt around AOS made it hard to figure out what was going on and I could find no one saying anything good about it. Till I watched this. Before AOS I liked the idea of playing dwarfs. At the time I was playing 40k and asked someone about WFB and they basicly said. Its really complex (even more than 40k) and I needed to buy like 200+ models. So that killed it for me. I simply could not play both 40k and Warhammer. Now I might just get into it and try to play some dwarfs. Thanks for giving some useful information on Warhammer AOS.
+Chris Murphy And GW just released a whole bunch of Dwarf stuff in the past few weeks. I'd tell you to watch the last couple of episodes of 'The Andy & Rem Show" on TH-cam to learn about the new dwarf units that are out now. Thanks for watching!
So here's the thing, I'm a Warhammer player for the last four editions and I would have jumped on the AoS band wagon without a second thought if it had been the following: a) A Historical Setting (play during the ACTUAL Age of Sigmar - you know before the Empire was formed) b) A full blown skirmish game in the Warhammer World - Mordheim Warbands all grown up c) Still allowed you to rank up those skirmishers into ranks using an alternative system (i.e. modified version of the current rules) But no, the world got blown up and they flipped me the bird and said "we're done with world you've loved for the past 15+ years, accept the new or GTFO."
+Tabletop Minions I feel like this should not be a surprise to anyone. GW has built a business on screwing their customers over. Hey....were going to release an "expansion" to the rules. Please buy everything you will need for this new ruleset....because we are going to cancel the entire game in a few months...
Age of sigmar and it's low barrier of entry is why I'm coming to play. New players are popping up everywhere. before it was a couple of grumbly dudes in the back with buckets and boxes of models, but now is fresh and vibrant. My few models go a long way and I can pull out my 5 extra formations of models and drastically change the composition of my army every game. Also, these new simple rules means i'm not constantly getting blind sided by BS rules every turn.. every game. it's fun.
Personally I love Age of Sigmar, it's revitalised Warhammer Fantasy in my area. Not to mention that it's brilliantly designed in that it's perfectly balanced in terms of armies, no one army is more powerful than another because *everyone's* OP. And to paraphrase The Incredibles, when everyone's OP, no one's OP.
+Bainbow That's a good point about everyone being OP. I know a lot of Fantasy players who looked at the warscrolls and said, "Wow, [crappy unit name goes here] doesn't suck any more. That's kinda cool!" I suspect it was part of GW's plan. Thanks for watching!
+Tabletop Minions I'm sure it will something like - Oh Karl Franz, where did you go? - I just came back from somewehrearoundtheoldworld. - Oh! And you are alone? - I have a 3 millions of men behind me. - Oh god...
Ok good news mr. Tabletop minion man, this hardcore 40k and Horus Heresy player has been converted, I've bought two packs of wood elves and I'm looking forward to getting started with a new wargame :) HOWEVER, and this is an important however, was it really the right decision to forbid players and customers playing fantasy battles in store? I know tons of FB players and it seems kinda dickish that they're, essentially, forced to play this new system. That's why I'm mad at GW with the whole AoS thing.
+lenrat117 I'm assuming that you are talking about a GW store forbidding people from playing 8th in the store. This is why I don't go to GW stores (also because they only have one or two in my entire state and they're several hours away from me) and instead I shop and play at independent gaming stores. Thanks for watching!
My problem with Age of Sigmar is actually fairly simple. I LOVE the look of the models, especially the new models. I was never into old fantasy because there were no players in my area, although I wish I had been at this point. my biggest gripe is that they bill the game as a beer and pretzels type of game, with a very limited rule set and a pretty flexible format. But here is the big problem. it is NOT a beer and pretzels type of game for the cost. My store offers at 10% discount on all GW products but i still see boxes of 5 models going for 70 dollars. The big monster minis like a big greater demon or Carnosaur can run you easily over 120 dollars for just 1 model. While there is nothing in the rules saying you can't play with just 1 model I have to point out, that is lame. You want to play with a large army, and get some model diversity but that will run you a few hundred dollars. Compare that to Warmachine, where for the same amount of money you could invest in a super solid game, with very well done rules and a very active and competitive environment and with actual support from the parent company. To me it is a no brainer.
The issue with GW is they began as a game company that sells games and evolved into a company that sells models. Which is fine, but a firm cannot drastically shift and maintain loyalty while dropping fecal matter on your fanboys. While I agree that AoS is an interesting shift towards a "toe-in" intro game strategy, but WHFB was already there maintaining it at 15(ish)% would not be difficult. Why not do both? Intro to AoS and upsell over time to WHFB, that would have been the best strategy. But that's not the game plan, they write rules (creating power shifts) to sell models. The only players that engage in this are the "pay-to-win" crowd. Most people typically do not like to play with those types of players, and this tends to push people out of the game. GW has been self-cannibalizing its player base for short term gains for years and its finally caught up with them. Time to take your medicine. Another reason fantasy was shrinking is because they priced their target market out of playing the game or buying multiple armies. A typical fantasy player would dedicate to one army and add another every 24-30 months, that is a long-term approach to selling models, and GW has the patience of a spoiled child. It is also a risky business model because you have to retain that customer for those 24-30 months as well, especially if you ignore primary stakeholders (players, distributors, retailers). GW is proud of their IP, and they should be, but for a company to focus on geeks and nerds (which until recently have not widely been known for economic success) and adopt a long-term differentiation strategy based on premium prices is silly. Leveraging past investments (buying an army, modeling supplies, and rule books) as a method of retaining customers is bad business. Prices always go up, regardless of GW reducing the quality of raw materials and trying to pass it off as something worthy of a 15% price hike. While wargamers tend to be on extream ends of the economic spectrum, very few of them are stupid. People that play GW games are very involved, rarely are they, casual players. Organizations cannot treat well informed and engaged customers like they are stupid people. Like they will not figure out their anuses are being abused, and their colons are being used as a trampoline by GW's exploitive business model. It is an absolute shame that a company has such a strong following that it has allowed GW to screw up so often and just now, 30 years later, begin to crumble. Think what this game could have been if they built a model to serve primary stakeholder and convert secondary stakeholders (in this case players of other miniature games) to primary ones. Atom, you covered this in an interview about your relationship with GW and it's non-existant PR department. Today it is too easy to connect with your public to not do it, complete failure on the part of GW. Sorry about the book, got off on a rant.
+T “Claymaker52” DB I absolutely agree with your point about GW not connecting with their customers, especially in this day and age. My day job is in marketing - mostly digital - and in my mind Games Workshop is doing *everything wrong* in that respect. It's astounding. They're obviously not doing themselves any favors. As much as I think that Age of Sigmar is a smart move on their part, it's on top of a stupendous pile of dumb moves they've made in the last ten years. Thanks for watching!
Thank you for the considerate and well-stated thoughts quite contrary to the Internet zeitgeist but quite in line with a reasonable assessment of the game. Applause for Uncle Atom, one of the most eloquent and thoughtful commentators on the miniatures gaming hobby!
I think the biggest issue is the same issue GW has.. complete lack of communication I'm a relitive late commer the WHFB. but I was genuinely excited for AoS. but there was only leaks and hints and guesses. then in the vacuum of info people started to worry and fret and scared ppl are angry ppl. for 2 weeks prior to the release their was no info from GW only a blue poster and incredibly shitty you tube video saying AOS IS COMMING !! and then when it came every one was like 'what ???' I think you make many valid points but GW seemed to think it's an either / or situation get new players but screw the older players. This was unessary and badly handled if GW came clean and said exactly what you said that would of eased a lot of hate. But they said nothing. I'm rambling now. I'm not even bitter as I wasn't over invested in the old world to begin with. but aos leaves me cold. I am getting into 9th and I believe 9th will ease a lot if the hate and when emotions calm down ppl perhaps ppl will get into AoS. I do hope it's a success. anyway I'm rambling now. so I'll shut up ;)
Yes, GW is absolutely abysmal at communicating with their player base. It's honestly surprising for a company of their size in this day and age. Thanks for watching!
Ang3 li0n theres lore about why the realm of FIRE has VOLCANOES. It included a dwarf god and a magmadroth god(?) fighting to the death, before they both shattered.. becoming fucking volcanoes.. because details
Respectfully I disagree. In my opinion anything coming out of GW is not good for the gaming community. I'll play my current Empire, and Imperial Guard with the old rules with my club, but I will never buy another "new" unit from GW. I do not believe they give a damn about their player base, so I'll choose to keep my money to companies that I feel care about the gaming community.
+Blair Fenning I appreciate that you respectfully disagree, and being reasonable people on the Internet, we can agree to disagree. Honestly though, you have to vote with your dollars. If you don't agree with GW on this, then you *shouldn't* buy the stuff, I agree with that. Thanks for watching!
This sounds really good, but the thing that has thus far kept me out of Sigmar is the cost for new boxes which is pushing it a little too far even for GW. I understand that miniatures are a pricey hobby, and have made my piece with that, but I can't go around dropping 50 bucks for 5 Sigmarines.
+J. P. Morris (Virobrain) That price is (I think) exactly the same price for five terminators, which are roughly the same size. Therefore, I don't see that as being super overpriced within the realm of GW stuff. Those three Varanguard for $100 though? That is still pretty crazy to me, so you're not wrong. Thanks for watching!
There is one important part that is generally overlooked. New prices, a decent AOS bunch of minis is not that far away from whay 2400 points of fantasy used to be say a year ago (depending on the army of course)
+Lucas Perez Yes but they MINIMUM to get in is much lower. Before your talking BRB, 70, Army book, 50, Hero, 25, and at least two boxes of troops, 35. So your paying a minimum of 220 just to get started. Now the minimum could be you just want to do a 1v1 with someone else starting and they guy you like is 25. So compare 25 to a Minimum of 220, thats a LOT more appealing to others. Also you dont have specific points so while a box of Eternals might cost 50 its not like you have to have 2 of them just to start playing.
I know this is late but I've build a 113 wound army (with I think around 2k points for 8th ed) completely to my liking with £160. I have 40 infantry models (20 swords,10 crossbows, 10 greatswords). 6 single model units (3 wizards, warrior priest, witch hunter, general.) 3 Monster models (Demigryphs) and a character (volkmar on a war altar) and a Helblaster volley cannon. Considering this is a legacy army I'm saving about £120 on not buying the books.
For a long time a young would be player it was so difficult to continue playing 40k with a limited budget. I think Sigmar makes our wonderful world so much more accessible! Definitely a step in the right direction.
+Grubnar Incorrect. Perhaps its just your play style, or preferences, but it does what it does perfectly well, in that it allows a game that is not on rails with overbearing restrictions. Its dynamic nature and flexibility allows for huge amounts of creative strategy. How many games have you played? When? Even I, a huge proponent of the game, had issues when it first launched and doubts, especially in my 1st games. Since I've found a huge amount of appreciation for the game. I'd never play 8th again, or a game like it. Feels like playing with handcuffs. If you don't agree, no issues here, I respect your opinion, but its simply your pov. I hope you find games you like better. :)
+Mc1gamer problem is there are no boundaries of any kind so games can often be broken before they have begun. and I have seen it said many times that the AoS box as is, is instant win for eternals.
Aurora07 Absolutely not true. I've played into the triple digits in games to date, and I admit early, after only a few games, I was teetering myself on giving up. The game is far far more dynamic and flexible than 8th ever could be. That game was on rails. And I'm a longtime warhammer player. AoS allows so much freedom to create your own tactics, formations. Its just not 8th! Its not 9th. Its its own game. It excels at a series of small-med games played not in a steamroller style (though lots of comps are trying to make it so) but as a scenario/objective driven narrative game. You play several games, linked, and the story is what you are playing as much as the guy/gal across the table. I've done countless videos on YT myself about this, not just unlocking the rules, unveiling new tactics, but also how to play. Some of my best games were against insurmountable odds, huge numerical disadvantages. Did I lose, in a sense. My group got wiped out, but much as the Spartans were defeated at Thermoplea vs a Persian army vastly bigger, if there's implications that are connected to the next game, and the next, its a far more rewarding experience! Its just that players need to be weened off the notion that the game HAS to be balanced, HAS to be a steamroller tournament style game. It can be, but that is also the beauty of AoS. You can overlay it in any way you want because the rules are that flexible. I prefer narrative/scenario/story, but that is a preference. Its NOT instant win, and I've yet to lose against the eternals. I've yet to see a game that is I-win. Its the vitriol that is spewed by people who are butt-hurt about the navigation away from the 8th edition style of play and the fact that those players don't know any other style (or seem not) other than games that crush thier enemies hobby as much as the armies on the table. I hope you give it a shot with people who are more open minded than that. After my own early experience I've dedicated myself (in gaming lol) to focus on unlocking the game, and I'm glad I didn't give up! Keep an open mind please :)
+Mc1gamer I played four games. It was unabashedly terrible with my armies. With modded rules, actual comps, and a few bits of balancing it can be fun, don't get me wrong. It just doesn't function as anything other than a melee with the new models. Now, the new models work great in the new system once you balance the sides, and the starter kit can be good fun. Old world armies just don't function in AoS, in my opinion.
+Paul Kelly I'm sorry but disagree more. I'm not saying you are wrong to have a personal preference, that is your call as it is for each and every person. However, you are still, like I've mentioned in countless videos, still bringing in notions from 8th edition and previous editions, and from your past experiences to a game that is built to be different. Its not about balance, its not about a battle line in a tournament like setting, its not about even sides or balance. I've played more games than I can count and the mass majority is WITH LEGACY MODELS UNITS AND WARSCROLLS. Sorry for the caps but I cannot emphasize this enough. The legacy armies, units, characters, ALL viable and enjoyable. If you are trying to emulate 8th edition, you will be miserable with AoS. I was. I played 3 games myself, and I was ignorant of the possibilities too, and it all seemed like a scrum in the middle, but I starter my own YT unlocking series and have never looked back. Comp isn't needed, though its fine to change things to suit your preferences there too. The game is not meant for steamroller type games and need a massive comp package to adapt it to that playstyle. Its built to be faster, cleaner, shorter games, small-mid sized (it bogs down when it gets too big!) and with a narrative/scenario/objective focus. Once you establish that you are playing a string of connected games, where each affects the next, where you don't worry about an even balance of supposedly exact power (which btw, has always been a illusion no matter the game played lol), and once you buy into playing 2, 3, 4 games in a sitting, with implications connected to each, with a mini story/campaign like vibe, then you are seeing how AoS works. That is why ALL the hardcovers released have a series of scenarios that exemplifies this. They are not even battles, they are a string of connected games that tell a story and affect each other, they each are deep in special objectives, new ways to deploy, staggered deployment, new command abilities, etc. This is NOT 8th edition and its built so that you can have not only freedom to build your army as you desire (yes, you can have a flight of dragons, a herd of Giants or a mass of bodies in a horde army and they ALL work) as well as not put your units on rails to only move in preset ways, it opens tremendous dimension for formations, baiting moving, blocking lines of retreat, flanking runs that older editions could NEVER allow. Its far far deeper than four games could convery. I'm well over 100 games and I'm still learning different ways players use layered defense, deceptive deployment, etc. The very BEST games have been massively imbalanced. A small elite army against a massive hoard, with the goal to outlast as long as possible, but in the end, it will be a tide that washed over you. On its own, yeah, a loss, but as part of a narrative, could be a strategic victory. Sound familiar? Think the last stand of the 300 ;) Yes, that is possible, fun and more, and could never be done in a steamroller type event, or in previous editions. If that's not your thing, hey, fine, but you simply CANNOT draw conclusions with such a limited amount of exposure. I almost went that route myself. I nearly quit after my 3rd game lol. I'm thrilled I didn't. If this still isn't your style, thats cool, but lets not crap on a system, on a game, that you just didn't give enough of a chance. If you feel other games are better for your style, hey great. I will say, I'm glad you at least tried to put minis on the table and see for yourself. So many just hear the whines and cries and lies, and rage of those idiots who just want to see it fail b/c its not the game they played for years (hey, I've been around a looong time too, I understand) but I sure wish, after my experiences, I had a chance to demo for them (and you). I've been shocked myself at the response nearly all (yeah, not all!) have had when they've played the game in a different way than they did in 8th and earlier editions. I hope you keep an open mind, but either way, good luck in your gaming.
I completely agree. it was actually the rules simplicity that really got me. I love to glue my little dudes together and give them an awesome paint and practice different skills with painting, texturing and weathering. but the rules were always intimidating. I have truck loaded of awesome 40k still in there boxes because I need to find someone to show me those baby steps of rules to get me into the game. as a result my 40k stuff is unpainted. when age of Sigmar came out. 4 pages of rules, boom starter box bought clipped and painted. I know people seam to hate on the SigMarines but I think they are awesome. The added plus, because the models a on the large side they are really easy to paint up and look really cool really quickly. awesome idea of them to attempt to revive an entry point game. my only complaint would go back to GW prices. but I do like what they are doing with the new faction specific starter sets. can't wait to see more :-) happy gaming thanks for the cool and inspirational channel
+David Brian The 'Get Started' boxes aren't very different from their Battalion boxes of old, they've just gotten a bit smarter with their marketing and called them 'Get Started' boxes. It helps to draw in new players, hopefully. Thanks for watching!
The points you raise are good and i agree with you that it made business sense for GW to do age of sigmar,however i still feel GW could have kept WHFB alive as a separate game within the same world,all GW had to do was make a simple skirmish set of rules in the WHFB old world,and kept WHFB as a scaled up version of the game. But i suppose the suits wanted a complete re-branding of the setting so that why we ended up with age of sigmar.I do miss the Lore and appeal of the old world be nice if GW do something with it again even if its warmaster again id be happy with that.
+Conan the Barbarian Problem is then they are adding to costs and not replacing. If you simply put AoS as an alternative then your still paying to make Fantasy and its only make 17% of your profits. This wasnt a situation of "how can we boost Fantasy sales" it was "Fantasy either has to go or we have to DRASTICALLY increase sales".
I've tried to get into fantasy in the past but I was blown away with the sheer volume of rules and the impregnability of it it from the outsider. So I turned to 40K, but even now I'm turned off by it because I feel it demands huge armies and hours of time to play with tomes stacked high left and right. With age of sigmar a four page download away... damn right I'm giving it a go!
Dont get discouraged. Games Workshop is hard to get into, but see if you can start with playing "mordheim" or "killteam" where you only need a few models to play. + dont buy everything brand, I got my first paints from target and my Xacto from walmart. Be strategic with how its spent and if its still not enough, play X wing instead because its the salvation of every gamer who doesnt have 3 figures of hobby cash on hand to play
Seem's you were right dude in the recent financial report it's revealed that AOS has sold more than fantasy. The business big wigs on the gaming forums sales are now flat instead of a loss and they are on the right track again. We learnt some valuable lessons during the year on how to deliver product system changes on this scale and as we released more of the range in the second half of the year, we finished the year with sales of Warhammer: Age of Sigmar at a higher rate than Warhammer has enjoyed for several years."
I'm sad Warhammer fantasy died but also glad as it filtered out all of the snobby egocentric players in my community who made the experience of gaming less fun.
I dunno man, I mean it filtered all the fantasy players, snobby or otherwise. If your goal is to remove snobs then let's just ditch 40k too. I loved the positioning aspect to fantasy, and the look of the ranked up units. I was the least play-to-win, snobby person and I don't mind that other people like age of sigmar, but people like me have gone from warhammer, as well as the 1% snobs. It's not just sad because it's gone, it's sad because there were a lot of people who enjoyed it, even if some were snobs (same as with all games). Although obviously they may have made the correct choice.
This was a great video. I played GW games since the Rogue Trader days, but stopped a long time ago due to the amount of time needed to paint armies. I haven't played for years (other than a few campaigns using Realm of Chaos Warbands rules from the very first ROC books) - Age of Sigmar has really sparked my interest, not only because of the new minis, but also because it gives me an easy way in to re-paint just a few of my miniatures
+Robert Fransgaard Absolutely. I really feel that's what GW was hoping for. Plus, maybe you'll buy some new models because they're cool. And then maybe, eventually you'll start buying 40k models and build an army. But it's totally up to you. Thanks for watching!
They should have simply made a new edition of Warhammer that was simplified much like AoS, but also made an "Apocalypse"-style expansion so that when people amassed enough miniatures they would organize their force into regiments and play just like old Warhammer. Everybody would've won (no silly new background lore).
+James Gordley They seemed set on switching everything to round bases, so I'm not sure how well that would have worked. Interesting idea, though. Thanks for watching!
+Tabletop Minions Well, they did gave us ranks of Uruk-Hai pikemen and whatnot in LotR (which was all on round bases, and covered battles of every size). The biggest problem I can think of is making bigger movement trays for slightly looser formations (due to the width of round bases), and telling the WH vets how spaced out their old square-based models should be if they're playing against a newer player. But how inconvenient is that, in comparison to having the whole thing wiped out? :)
I've gone and bought Storm of Sigmar and the citadel essentials kit. Great only £40 to experience the new rules after 12 years of not playing Fantasy or 40k. And guess what, now I'm hooked again. the shorter rules sure need some more depth, in the form of expansions or at least a better army points system. But besides that huge improvement. Much easier to access and do whilst having a busy work rota. I think a few friends are buying in to it thanks to Sigmar too.
Dear uncle atom,I've recently invested in the small AoS starter kit "storm of sigma" after almost ten years from stopping playing 40k. I was wondering does AoS have the freedom that 40k offered I.e. invented pretty the much what you want chapter/heroes etc. I've spent a lot of time to research (for free admittedly) but everything seems very set in stone. Other than the odd post on instagram I rarely see a stormcast army that isn't ultramarine (my apologises blue and gold). Adding to this the models seem very set, I'm struggling to find a hero who is almost a blank sheet to build on for example a space marine captain (the name may have changed...) was pretty much an open book to build as you saw fit. I've watched many of your videos and heard how you suggest this is a gateway game to 40k.I understand due to the basic game being free its unreasonable of me to expect the depth that 40k offered, however I would like to atleast construct my army/heroes/warscolls as I choose. What are you thoughts? Is there possibility to play storm cast not loyal to sigmar? I apologise if my comment appears stupid, I've be out of the "fluff" of war games a while. I really enjoy your videos, building my enthusiasm enough to make a return!Kind regardsConnor
You can paint them however you want. In fact, the hardcover original Age of Sigmar book shows tons of different paint schemes for the Stormcasts. Thanks for watching!
I wanted to get into the hobby for years but the cost and rulebook scared me... The AoS starter set came out and I figured: why not? So the last few months I have been painting a lot (the main reason I wanted to get into it really) and having a lot of fun doing that. I have very few friends who play miniature games but a lot who really are into board games. AoS is the perfect way for me to bring a bunch of models (2 reasonably balanced armies) and let my opponent choose his and have a fantastic afternoon of gaming. Same thing with the Betrayal at Calth box, finished painting that, haven't got around to playing it yet but it's a game that is easy enough to explain to a new player and have a blast.
+drappke Getting new players into wargames is great when you can bring models for both sides, which is why smaller skirmish games are so great. Thanks for watching!
As someone who was outta the scene (so to speak) for over 15 years, I can totally understand why GW have mixed it up. Unfortunately their business model ruined the game, as it was ridiculously expensive to play. I wouldn't be surprised if the AOS model is going to happen for 40k, too. Having said that, I've had my fill of painting dwarfs and tau (2 squads and some Kroot...), I've jumped ship to Hail Caesar, Malifaux and X-Wing. Today I bought three times the miniatures (via Warlord Games) than I did with one set of GW Tau. And the 40k game in its current ruleset is so 'meh'... AOS is great in that it gives a relatively quick jumping off point.
+Tïr Eoghain Blackman I'm not sure that they'll give 40k 'the Age of Sigmar treatment' anytime soon. 40k is still a big cash cow for them, and I don't know if they'd want to mess with is that much. I think the potential backlash would be of a much greater magnitude. We'll see, I guess. In my mind, 8th edition 40k will be released this summer. Mark my words! And thanks for watching!
Thanks for sharing your thoughts on AoS. I don't think my local gaming ship knows about the rules because when I inquired about AoS, they gave the impression that I HAD to get all new books. Which to me would've been a pain to buy. Knowing that I can download the rules and Warscrolls for each army makes me want to attempt to play Warhammer again after not playing, but buying models about 15 years ago. So yeah, I'm back in. Good thing I didn't sell my models. Lol.
+soundwave810 all the AoS books are mostly fluff with some battle plans which are just various scenarios to add some narrative to the games. All core rules are absolutely free.
I agree! I was never into fantasy before AoS. I actually used AoS as a jumping on point to start a Lizardmen army. Unfortunately, the AoS and Fantasy scene in my area isn't all that big.
I've never been a fantasy player, or age of sigmar for that matter. But I do think I was the right move for them. I've been a 40k enthusiast for the better part of my life, but I find the game far too complicated to fully understand. I do focus more on painting and modelling, but I do want to play the game, too, and most of the time, it's just too complicated to enjoy. Plus there's all the codexes and rulebooks. If they did age of sigmar to 40k, I'd happily support it.
+Jon Shackell Maybe look into starting Age of Sigmar. The rules are a bit simpler, and you can kind of pick and choose the cool models you want for your army. Thanks for watching!
Well I dont like AoS rules, but i do like Fantasy battlerules. But now im stuck with old rule book that will never be updated until Fantasy battles become a distant memory. How can this be good in any way shape or form? Make a new game with its rules or even parallel to Fantasy battles, same story same units, different rule books. There is absolutely no need for AoS to be "New Fantasy". They just split and thinned out player base...
+DirtEVids It probably wouldn't have been financially viable to support Fantasy and Age of Sigmar at the same time. I'm sure they can't afford the resources due to their flagging sales. I get the feeling that one of their new key initiatives (finally) is to try to attract newer players, and they felt Age of Sigmar had a better chance of doing that than Fantasy did. It was all a business decision. We shall see how it plays out. Thanks for watching!
Just want to say I love your videos! I just started into the miniatures hobby (backing Kingdom Death: Monster started this obsession) and videos like the "wet palette" have been a huge help. Also picked up Age of Sigmar starter set thanks to you. Keep up the awesome work!
I don't mind the rules but I hate the models. They're just 40king Fantasy. I'll keep buying their older models but doubt if I'll buy any of the new ones.
Published by Osprey. They have produced a range of wargames rules books. Good old fashioned wargaming. No supporting ranges of miniatures supplements etc etc just a book. About £12 in the UK.
Here’s the problem for me: I only play AoS. I started playing it January of 2019. I jumped in as much as I wanted. It’s been 8 months. I’ve lost 6 complete armies since then due to rules changes and deleted warscrolls. (Lord of Slaanesh on Demonic Mount, Bloodstoker, 4 Repeater Bolt Thrower, 4 Sorceress on Dark Pegasus, 120 Witch Aelves) This game has destroyed everything I liked time and time again. There’s no doubt in my mind I’m going to lose thousands of more dollars when they delete the 10k points of tomb kings warscrolls next month.
As a former WFB player, and a current AoS player (though not for long), I see AoS as a completely different game than WFB. The new models, combat, and rules function well in a vacuum of newer models and their larger miniatures, but the game falls apart with much scale. It's not something I'd recommend to new players when Warmahordes or Frostgrave champion the skirmish and adventure categories so nicely. The new miniatures disappoint me greatly (though I do admit that Chaos has some superlative examples of their faction newly introduced). The main benefits of WFB were the unique rank-and-file combat and the heavy amount of their world's lore, both items not carried into AoS. I'm happy to have 9th Age, Warthrone, and Kings of War to replace the fallen titan, but the rise of a painfully unbalanced, overpriced skirmish game in a relatively crowded market (Warmahordes, 40k, MERCs, Frostgrave, Kings of War, Infinity, X-Wing, Malifaux, Necromunda, etc) seems relatively far-fetched to me personally. Now if you enjoy collecting/painting those GW models and just want a simple game to show them off? AoS is a fantastic way to launch your entire art collection at another artist! I feel as though they should make AoS rules that include 40k miniatures.
Original gw ecosystem: you buy the rulebook, you buy a box of plastic minis for a tenner: you play. Recent gw ecosystem: give me all your money and stop crying. Curent gw ecosystem: give me all your money, stop crying, and give me your mum's money, too.
And what exactly prevented them from adding the unit rules to the box? You could’ve bought skellies and have their stats in the box. What prevented them from making a shorter, easier rules? And about the model count - they increased it themselves, look at the model count increase between 6th and 8th. What prevented them from introducing new game formats like open and narrative play? And now AoS changed - you have 25 battletomes on GW website which give you a special rules for your faction. Models are still expensive and for a matched play you need at least 1000 points which is a lot of models, and thus cash. On top of that you need to add new books like Generals Handbook each year with additional rules, books like Morathi or Teclis and it makes the cost of the game even higher. Today typical matched play game for 2k points is similar in model count to 2k WFB 6th ed. There is one, major advantage that AoS has though and it’s bigger bases - models can have more dynamic poses and generally look better. I wish that when we’ll finally return to the Old World we’ll get new bases, square but larger. Or round as in ME on square movement trays. That would allow using the models i skirmish and big games easily.
All of this is flawed from the one simple fact, that they killed Fantasy to make this joke of a table top war game. Nobody wanted fantasy gone, they wanted it fixed from the "BUY ALL OF THE MODELS" rules that had been introduced in the recent editions. Of course nobody new was going to get into the game when it was twice as expensive as 40K and had become a jumbled mess with its newest rules. All they needed to do was sit and think for a bit rather than have this sudden culling of an entire fantasy world so that they could trade mark some of the most cringe worthy names within any fantasy genre to date. Not to mention how they completely pulled the rug on all the fantasy players who finally thought they were getting support for the game again only to find it being turned into "Fantasy the space marine-ing". Maybe if they had made it into an entirely different line for new comers to try out it wouldnt be so bad but i guess its too late for that.
When you first posted this video I would have REEEEEEd heavily. But at this point in time, I'm happy with all the post Soulwars stuff I'm seeing, to the point that I've started collecting and playing from time to time. Warcry is also really good, and the Path to Glory restrictions plus Cities of Sigmar stuff, makes narrative campaigns great.
I think the idea of AoS is good. I have not played it yet but it's a bitter taste in the mouth that GW doesn't want veteran players anymore, you know those guys who took the time to lean the rules. If AoS was alongside WFB that would be cool kinda like the old days of hero quest and space crusade - here is the simple system quick and easy and short games and then here is the advanced rules WFB if you would like more in depth battles and have more time to spare. basically GW don't want to spend the time inventing a rules system. I would welcome in future pre - painted miniatures however (again) alongside unpainted. that way you spread the system to a wider audience.
+Paul Kelly depends how much of an overhaul you think it needs. I don't think it does. 8th had its problems to be sure and also had many good bits (like large monsters actually being able to do something) but I enjoyed 7th alot more so if we could pick and choose the best bits from each edition it could work out fairly well. I'm sure there are many custom rules online that work.
Your reasoning is right for the introduction part. However, I don't understand how you conceive that Age of Sigmar was the best move. What exactly holded them back from doing the little 4-page booklet for free with all the warscrolls and yadi yada and not releasing on the side ''Advanced age of sigmar'' or whatever with proper army composition, factions and point cost? Or why not make it a third IP as an alternate timeline (or w.e) into which you can use your fantasy model while still keeping their own fantasy brand (and solving the fucking inner problems like having to buy 4* 10-women box of witch elves for 70CAN each and keep regiment at a more slow number for khorne's sake). Also, X-Wing dosent just sell because its easy to pick up, it also sell because its an actual wargame with a lot of strategical depth where the company cares about the meta and the community, which GW din't do and still isnt doing properly as we speak. Sorry if I make any typos, I'm a french-canadian enthusiast that works into a wargaming store (if you ever come by montreal, try l'Abyss and ask for the wargame guy, I love your content)
GW is only in it for that sweet cash tho. White box + round bases = $22 price increase, why would I buy $69 Grave Guard over $41 Skeleton Warriors? because they are better, to think I used to joke about the cost of the Blood Knights. But I agree in spirit the concept is good even the scenery is part of your army, some basic house rules and the game's not so bad. But I can't shake that cash grab feeling so for me its GW no the game.
If grave guard were the same price as normal skellies then you'd never buy skellies. They do the costs semi-proportunate with their points cost because it makes sense for a number of reasons, primarily to make people less likely to just all have the same optimally cost-effective armies of elites. The costs are seemingly totally disconnected to material costs ect, and that's why.
I started playing GW core games in 1983 with WFB 1e. Checked out of the core stabled in 1998. AoS has brought me back in. Its a huge step in the right direction for their games.
I totally agree! I was completely intigued by the whole idea of painting my own models by hand before using them in tiny battles with other people, but I didn't feel like learning the rules to a complicated game. Then, when I walked into Games Workshop one time just to browse and see what the games looked like etc... I fell in love with Age of Sigmar (I have always been into Fantasy). However, I still did not fancy a heavy book just about the rules. Then, when the man who was working at the store handed me a four-page booklet of rules, I was completely surprised and ended up walking out of the store with all of the essential tools, some models (although only three small goblin-type creatures) and some paint. Therefore, I think that this version of the game is, as you said, the perfect strategy for GW to bring in multiple younger and/or new customers!!
I've been collecting and painting Warhammer Fantasy miniatures since 2010, but I rarely played it, because I had nobody to play with. I tried to lure my brother and my wife into it, but I think you have to be really enthusiastic to start playing: the rules, the armybooks, the preparations for a battle (plus downloading softwares to set up armies and calculate points, etc), not to mention the costs of course. Maybe AoS solves this problem, but of course I understand the hardcore players' disappointment as well, because to me AoS compared to Warhammer 8th Edition is like kicking football in the backyard compared to (american) football. Anyway, I'm a collector and painter in the first place, so maybe my opinion is not that relevant... But then again, I never forget GW that they destroyed the greatly detailed Old Worlde.
hey man, thanks so much for making this video. many great points and I've been enjoying the game this whole time I'm glad other people are at least checking it out.
"Now they're gonna go spend their money on crack" - LOLLLLLL
I'm dead lmao
😂😂😂😂
I died.
I remember when I first tried to get into war gaming. Good thing that the store owner also sold crack, that was a wild Tuesday afternoon.
+KeloseDEC I've never gotten the hang of Tuesdays. Thanks for watching!
thats what happened to me with the old warhammer, i couldnt fit the rule book in my backpack so me and my friend bought crack instead
It's a sad tale that we hear every day. Sad. Thanks for watching!
Junkies are the lowest cast in our human race. I shame on you.
@@OST1350 Junkies ? nah...Chaos space marine are the lowest.
@@OST1350 dude, have some empathy. Everyone is young at some point.
Age of Sigmar: lowering crack use in 10 year olds since 2015.
I know that as well. Couldn't afford that new Bloodthirster. Used the Money for crack and cocaine instead. At least that's affordable.
"Spend their money on crack... or whatever kids spend their money on these days" LOL
+Koreldy Or maybe they spend their money on records, or the Pokemons. I don't have any kids. Thanks for watching!
+Tabletop Minions You would've been a good father...
Koreldy this was by far the best part of the video. Perhaps this statement will make it on a shirt one day.
Magic the Gathering?
The fact that he said that with a straight face cracks me up so much.
"Do you have $700?" 😂 My favourite line.
Matthew Bester first comment I found that isn’t related to crack
@@IForgotMyUsername5000 are you sure? crack is expensive too.
What I hate most about AoS was that it REPLACED Warhammer Fantasy.
Why not have it alongside WF as a way of getting people into the hobby, while leaving regular Warhammer alone for all the fans that were already here?
They very likely just didn't have the resources (since sales were flagging) to start *another* miniature line, so then needed to rip off the band-aid and make the change. When I line is selling poorly, you don't keep it and add another line. Thanks for watching!
Tabletop Minions They still are reselling the old models, so why not just keep the fluff since they're still selling the models under a different name?
I agree with what you're saying. I used to play a lot of warhammer fantasy while growing up and I have a large chaos army in a box in the basement. When my children got older I wanted to introduce them to miniature gaming and for a long time I tried to find a game that was simple enough for an eight year old to learn. When AOS was released last summer I quickly realised it was the perfect introduction game for them. Now six months later we are building terrain together and painting miniatures and are having a great time playing the game. So yes I think this was the right move for games workshop.
+Pär Lindström I do not like AoS at all, but I love hearing that you got your children super passionate about miniature wargaming. I guess that I, as a 30 year old, fall outside of GW's target demographic.
+Reb Brown i can understand that AOS doesn't fit everyone. but as a 40+ parent that don't have too much time to spend on this it works really great. also you can play a battle in an hour or two which is about as much time as you can get your children to focus. but I'd love to see that GW maybe released som advanced rules for AOS as well, so it could appeal to more.
+Pär Lindström This story is spectacular, and exactly what I was talking about! I'm so glad that you've been able to get your kids into wargaming with something like this. Good on you, and thanks for watching!
Tabletop Minions well I'm glad too cause now I have a very good excuse to play cause it counts as quality time with my children. The only thing I really think GW does wrong is the lack of female miniatures. This actually nearly put my daughter off the whole thing. Luckily I could buy some female characters that I found on the net. Not from GW though.
+Pär Lindström Too bad that Battle Sisters haven't got a real treat since a long while, and that 40K its far more complex.
However, remember that Elvin armies have a good selection of female miniatures. Some of my favourite ones among the whole Fantays range are the Sisters of the Thorn and the Sisters of Avelorn, meanwhile both lines have really detailed eagles and horses; HE have a lion chariot and WE have Glade Riders, which have riders of both genders, and as a whole army have way more female models.
It's not uncommon to see that the few female players often tend to be attracted towards Elvin armies, which have some of the more aesthetic miniatures in the whole GW selection.
The problem lots of people, including myself have, is that AoS is not really a reboot or a change of warhammer fantasy, it is it's destruction and replacement. It just is not the same game, they just turned it into 40k, right down to including space marines. It's just that simple, GW no longer makes Warhammer Fantasy and Warhammer 40k, its 40k and the other 40k. I can see you'd be interested if you were a 40k player, if you preferred 40k already then obviously AoS is more up your street.The people who played fantasy over 40k did so because fantasy was a wargame, not a skirmish game, you were actually fielding an army worth the name, and you felt like a general when you played. AoS does not, and never will, scratch that itch. Imagine if your favourite car manufacturer just said ''yeah, the whole car thing, that's done, we're only making monster trucks now. But hey, give our monster trucks a chance, they're really good''. A monster truck cannot satisfy my need for a car, no matter it's merits.
while age of sigma has worse lore than Warhammer fantasy, game wise it's a lot better. it's far easier for new players to learn the rules and jump in than Warhammer fantasy
Luckily you can still play 8th edition all you want my friend! can't buy new models and rules, no, but if you were a player, and needed to scratch a little itch, it's still there ; )
I'm sure there's scope for getting new models, Ian; sure, it's difficult if you're playing Bretonnia or Tomb Kings and want to expand, but you could always invest in Fireforge Games' models for Bretonnians or spruce up/proxy some Vampire Counts units for Tomb Kings, I suppose. As for surviving armies you could put them on third-party square bases or even just rank them up on the round bases as best you can. Not the best solution, I know, but I'd hardly say that WHFB players have been robbed of expansion opportunities.
As a bret player it is a pain in the ass, fortunately I can thank fireforge games, darkzone miniatures and Perry miniatures for their awesome models.
There are people out there that have made the 9th age aswell which raises my spirit and hope that humanity isn't completely lost.
+Jack the critic Easier =/= better. Why not have AoS alongside Fantasy so that those who enjoy a complex wargame can play Fantasy, while more casual relaxed people can play AoS.
my problem is mainly with the destruction of the old world and the new lore...... which are complete shit
Destruction of the old world? Agreed, that was a shitty thing to do. New lore? Subjective, some people like low fantasy some people like off-the-wall fantasy.
What made Warhammer Fantasy (and still makes 40k great) is the gritty realism of it within the fantasy setting
+Nick Spears Exactly. Replacing Warhammer Fantasy, 30+ years of awesome lore, and replacing it with Asgardian hokeyness just sickens me. Lol
None of the fluff got replaced and 40k is in no way realistic. It's much closer to AoS than fantasy lore wise.
subaveragejoe2 It did, dude. Fantasy got wiped, AoS replaced it. You can't buy or play Warhammer Fantasy from GW anymore.
Forever angry.
I don't mind the rules changes or the marketing shift, that's all smart and good and I applaud the business move, but did they *have* to murder the entire goddamn world and invalidate thirty-some years of fluff in one go? It doesn't help that The End Times was a very unsatisfying scenario from a fan's perspective, but the bottom line is they burned away the entire setting and started fresh with something that at its core, isn't Warhammer any more.
Because it was needed to to introduce such a huge change! And DUH, of course this isn't warhammer anymore, to begin with it doesn't even figure in the title, go figure.
Really? Those rules wouldn't have worked for the troop choices and existing factions?
Oh, and it's called "Warhammer: Age of Sigmar" Soooooooo...
Gotchaed on that one, considering our meta unanimously says AoS (unlike the odd case of W40k being mentioned from time to time rather than just 40k.). Still it's not warhammer anymore. That place blew to kingdom come and civilization has bloomed.
No it would have not worked in the old setting.. It's not something just about the rules: the setting, the approach, and structure of the new miniatures. But let's go for the rules: do you think that they'd have tolerated those rules with such a strong connection still remaining to the old method? It's called burning the ships or sunken costs: they destroyed the Old World because they wanted to make the change permanent and after this there's no way back (which, make no mistakes, would have happened with the setting still intact).
Not sure we'll ever agree about that, since one of my local GW blokes recommended I should just use the rules to continue playing with what I already had to bulk up my forces before 'properly transitioning', and also apparently bits and pieces of the Old World still exist intact within Sigmar's new nightmare realm of nonsense (who knew the Big Sig was a chaos god?). That sounds awfully like not burning *all* the ships just in case to me, which is even more deplorable.
I guess my response here to GW's contempt for their existing Fantasy players is a polite "Well fuck you very nice, I'm taking my money elsewhere" I still have a copy of the old (real) Warhammer and cheap third-party minis/paint aren't hard to come by...
The only piece "intact" is mallus which is a huge ass asteroid made of remnants of the explosion resulting from the old world's death.
Sigmar isn't a chaos god, he's the avatar of Azyr and thus he's a god in that "realm" as everything can be shaped to his will there.
There's, truth be told, people who have inherited cultures of the Old World but this could be more seen as Sigmar being nostalgic and trying to recreate what was lost. Right now the setting is gone, almost everyone from there is gone, with only a few people and "remnants" (generally souls, 99.9999% of the time) having drifted around.
Well, good for you to have real Warhammer... Fantasy Battles. I won't force you to play the real Warhammer Age of Sigmar. Still think it was for the best.
I think there is an ever stronger recent theme of GW introducing new entry products to make their games more accessible from a cost perspective. As well as the re-tooling of WFB as AoS there are the "start collecting" boxed sets for WH40K and AoS, Betrayal at Calth (contains a decent sized Marine army for 30K or 40K for £95 or insert preferred local currency here) and now the new Deathwatch game (more specialised but still a good number of miniatures for the cost). Economics suggest this should work as they are trying to build market share, particularly given they seem to have have been more focused on upping the average cost per sale recently (look at all those big plastic superheavies of recent vintage......). Will it work is the next question? Perhaps, they are also investing heavily in free to play mobile gaming to broaden the brand appeal, I'll be reading this year's annual report with interest.
leakycheese .
28 years old n just found out i got the weird gene
Welcome
i spent most of my childhood knowing i had the weird gene (sort of) and not being able to act on it till 25. (that was over a decade ago)
this honestly just sold me on Age of Sigmar
I'm glad to help. I hope you have fun. Thanks for watching!
At first sorry for my english? its not my native. I think make a mistake. As you said cost to play WhFB(in my country at least) was preaty high, but why destroy old grim FB and create fairy tale of Sigmar? WhFB was about playing armies, they can create free WhFB skirmish rules for 5-10 models based on main rules. So any one can buy box of orks and play with friend who bought box of rats. And there were a lot less problem with comunity.
I played wargames earlier(before wh) miniatures was ugly rules are too simple(warrior with sword in fullplate have same stats as warrior in mail with axe) i liked to write some stories about it. When i first came to local miniatures shop i liked both WhFB and 40k worlds and miniatures. I whanted to buy and play High Elves and Eldar, but i was a student at that time. But when i finally got some free money they destroyed WhFB. FB was cool it can be any thing from simple good-evil wars to some grey situations(good vs good). But AoS looks like a fairy tale(yes miniatures is cool not all but cool). I have no interest in AoS lore. If i buy some miniatures from AoS onely to plase it on rack(cabinet i mean). And now i wont buy 40k, im afraid that all ends with another AoS.
GW make a mistake.
Age of Sigmar positives:
- Great models
- Nice prices
- Good for tabletop and the game
Age of Sigmar Negatives:
- It killed Fantasy
- Mediocre to bad lore? (Is improving)
AOS is a failure! Not a good idea to slap all of the old players, GW customers by the way in the face like this!!
I completely agree with everything you said. I was that 12 year old kid, the one with the screw loose that even when they said "yeah this is going to cost you x and you need l,m,n,o,p first" wasn't turned off. But I was always a hobbyist first because everything was so cool I never managed to buy enough stuff to play a game.
As an adult I turned to 40k, but to be honest the competitive scene (and complicated rules) meant that I never had fun playing, so back I was to just painting.
AoS has brought new life back to miniatures for me, I can buy whatever i like because it's cool, I don't need to have X% troops and whatever, I can then roll some dice and have some fun with other like minded people who don't take it too seriously.
IMO 40k is the GW's option for the miniature 'power gamer', AOS is the hobbyist's game for painters and collectors who also want to play a game.
+Mike Latter "40k is the GW's option for the miniature 'power gamer', AOS is the hobbyist's game for painters and collectors who also want to play a game" I think you hit it right on the head, and I'm glad you're getting back into playing with Age of Sigmar. Thanks for watching!
That is unjust and forgetting history, however. In essence, you are saying that it's good that it's easy and silly now because you don't take it too seriously. But, it's a tabletop wargame, it's meant to be quite serious and complicated. Warfare is, and the creator of wargaming (H. G. Wells) made it quite serious and complicated. Fantasy is meant to be Fantasy, not AoS. He would be ashamed to see kids in the 21st-century grumbling about the enterprise we have built, wanting it to be easy and frivolous. I agree, that option should be there for you, of course, it should, but, that shouldn't be the thing itself, thus forcing all of us to play the way you want to play and view it the way you view it. This is one of the biggest problems people have with AoS. It's not as much a tabletop war game now and it has lost some of its strategy.
I don't see how your opinion of it makes it so or can be true. Both Fantasy and 40k are, or were, for the miniature 'power gamer', and painter and collector. They should be on equal footing, more or less, and yet have the flexibility to mould to both player types without casting one aside, they should both be serious whilst remaining a fun game. It is about balance, and it's not rocket science. Well, clearly the players thought so (and GW, or the players and in turn GW). I wonder if the players (some of the players) are to blame for all the changes and not GW itself.
I definitely appreciate your explanation and clarity! I was the little child you described about 25 years ago- never had the money to get into the hobby. Now, with these sets and having had converted my wife into a RPG player, I feel like I can fulfill a childhood dream! Than you so much for the videos!
Sorry, but i just can´t get over this MONUMENTALLY STUPID AoS fluff... The whole new setting is so generic, so cookie cutter good vs. evil, boring and lifeless compared to the Old World! I bought WHFB Wood Elves because i legitimately CARED for their history and motivations! For me it was more than just painting plastic toy soldiers to play a few games...
Generic? Sorry, Old world was pretty generic. Vampires doing vampire things, dwarfs in mountains, Very very good vs evil. Chaos Uprising!! oh noooo, Sigmar ex machina saves the day!! Evil!!!! Dragon ex machina! AoS isn't mind blowing, but interconnected demon realms after the destruction of the world isn't generic persay.
AoS is generic?! You're kidding right?! WFB was generic tolkein-esque fantasy whereas AoS is going for something with a more modern sensibility. You've your stuff way backwards buddy.
DOOMED !
O.k. buddy, then please explain a few things to me: 1. What is even the purpose of fighting in the Realmworlds when nobody can die anyway? Where are the "normal people"? Why is EVERYBODY suddenly a totally overblown superhero? Why should i care if Chaos conquers some poorly thought out magical islands in space which the authors just pulled out of their asses to justify their new He-Man action figures...
+XMrSurrealisticX I loved the old world, and I am sad to see it go. But I also understand that the Old World has the benefit of 30+ years of development, while the new world is, well, new and underdeveloped. The fluff for Storm cast is actually pretty interesting, and I love the Freyslayers lore. Dwarves that take the remnants fo their dead god, forge the remnants into powerful runes, and graft the runes into their flesh so they can a small taste of their god's power for a short time is pretty wicked fluff.
I also like how sigmar helped save nagash, and the forged an alliance to take on Khorn, but of course nagash betrays sigmar. Then, when sigmar tries to get his revenge against Nagash, and gives Khorn a chance to regroup after getting his butt kicked. So, there is some pretty cool stuff in there.
+XMrSurrealisticX
1.) There are plenty of mortals left that can die. In fact, this question is taking up in the first novel published, in wich a leader of a storm hosts wonders what the point is as he looks at a completely blasted land. Then, he finds a group of survivors and he realizes that there is still hope to save the mortal realms.
2.) The storm cast can be reborn, but it is a slow and painful process. Also, each time they undergo the process, they lose a bit of their humanity and memory of their past life. They spiral down into selfishness, jealousy, etc the more often they are reforged. The time it takes to reforge also means that losing a battle still has consequences.
3.) There are lots of mortals left, both good and bad. Good folk were mostly taken to Sigmar's realm and protected. Now that the realm gate wars are under way, different mortals are taking up the role of holding ground that the storm cast manage to reclaim. So, mortal humans, dwarfs, elves etc. are around hand have things to do. There are also plenty of chaos mortals around.
4.) Finally, the different realms are more a chance to play in fantastical locations, and to give players the freedom to come up with all kinds of crazy scenarios. you can play in one land where it rains acidic blood and blood geysers explode randomly, hurting people. Or, you can make up your own world. Or, you can just say the battle is taking place in an area that is largely untouched by chaos and resembles the more typical warhammer world.
Don't get me wrong, I love the old warhammer world, but the new one is shapping up to be pretty neat too. I just wish the old world hadn't been discontinued.
If you think the simpler game style of age of sigmar is the correct step for GW you'd only be half right. The real smart move for them would be to simplify the rules into a booklet about the size of a codex (which is totally possible), and take steps to reduce the cost of an army to start. The reason why GW has seen a loss in people joining the game is because the cost to start an army is roughly 300$ including the rules and army books, and they're targeting 12-17 years olds. GW see themselves as the rolex of plastic, and don't understand why customers aren't buying en masse.
I'm assuming you mean 40k because sigmar did all that...
I buy and paint Age of Sigmar miniatures cause they are cool. The detal level is quite high even if i dont like some styles (like the simil ultra-marine...never liked 40k style). But i can understand the people that played warhammer fantasy for years and now have nothing left. Plus, the prices of miniatures are quite high compared to other companies (Avatars of War,Scibor etc...)
+lucioluciolucio85 They don't have nothing left, they can still play with their friends. It's just that they won't have anything new from now on. A lot of angry gamers forget about the fact that they can still play. Nobody forces them to play Aos if they don't want to. A lot of people always said that GW wants their money and that the hobby is too expensive, now they are free :D.
taithays
Indeed. Not a problem for me, i just collect cool miniatures so...
:)
+taithays I've embraced that as a positive of the move to AOS for warhammer fantasy. Now I can have an end point in sight for my massive horde of warriors of chaos collection! Locally we have a 9th age group starting up & kings of war have army lists for the old warhammer fantasy now.
+lucioluciolucio85 I thought scibor minis are super expensive. like $30 for one person
Blake Piercy
I saw some (like 10 dwarfs) for 30$. But i know that "heroes" are more expensive and the detail-level is amazing.
I'm writing from Italy. I could be wrong, but I think that Whfb was always more popular in Europe than it was in the US. Back in the days, in your average miniature store, Fantasy and 40k were maybe 50/50, and most of the times Fantasy was the bigger one, with 40K being the niche game. I remember I was very surprised when, on online forums, I discovered that on the other side of the ocean the situation was waay different, and that actually WHFB was a minor percentage of GW sales. We had a urban legend in the community (don't know if it's true) that if you put together all the money GW earned from Fantasy, it would still be lower than what GW earned from Space Marines alone!
Anyway, back to my point, what I wanted to say is that the death of WHFB was a HUGE blow for the boardgaming community here. GW handled it extremely poorly, both economically (ah, all those people who spent hundreds of € buying End Times books..) and in a PR way. People were so fed up and angry that many simply abandoned the hobby, or started new games, like X Wings or Kings of War. Ten years ago, if you entered in a (non GW) miniature shop, 99% of the minis were Citadel miniatures, and you could see people playing GW games in every table around you, now GW games have disappeared, or if they still resists, they're the minority. It's either X wing, flames of war, kings of war, there's so much more diversity and that's a good thing for sure (I mean, before it was either Fantasy or 40k,nothing else) but GW totally lost the leadership position they used to have. I hope the Aos strategy is paying in the US, because here, in the Old World, afaik it was a huge "hole in the water" as we say here.
Making the game more accessible? Great. But despite their simplicity some of the rules are bad and they destroyed the fluff for no good reason. That's why the fans are angry.
Sounds about right to me, although I don't play Fantacy
The 9th AGE
This video aged well. Watching in 2022 :)
I think the bluster has only died down because those who were upset aren't talking about it anymore. (myself included)
I've played a good amount of 8th since, but I'm just tired of fighting about it. I understand a lot of the reasons to like AoS, but none of those are valuable for me. I'm just playing other games more often now.
+Shao Kahn Can you explain why you don't keep on playing WFB ? I genuinely don't understand.... And what are you fighting exactly ?
I do play wfb, I said that in my comment.
And perhaps fighting is the wrong word. My friends who enjoy AoS have been trying to "convert me", talking to me about the games merits ad nauseum. I am just not interested. I've given it a try on multiple occasions, and I'd rather keep on playing 8th. AoS is not the game for me, and it's replaced my game at all my local gaming spots.
+Shao Kahn
Is it the difference between a Skirmish game and a Rank-and-File war game that decreases your enjoyment of it? Is AoS thriving at your LGS's?
Paul Kelly It's a contributing factor. I have a wide variety of skirmish games I'd rather play. AoS is still popular at my local GW, but not at the other game stores.
aos is still an amazingly good thing, but i'm not happy that 'rules will always be free' turned out to be a lie.
Age of sigmar killed fantasy in my area.
+newhoped So people stopped playing because of Age of Sigmar? Did their 8th Edition rule books suddenly burst into flames or all the words fall off the pages?
Banhammer72
No interest in age of sigmar and knowing old style fantasy isn't going to supported anymore, they moved on simple as that.
Or supported by the player who claim to prefer it over AoS it seems!
Our store ran one league and had to stop since everyone hated it so much. The rules make for a shoddy skirmish game at best, so people just moved on to something else.
+newhoped Same happened in my area. Some of the new sigmar boxes sold, but only because people were using the models for conversions or too have them sit on a shelf. Some people were trying to organize games and possibly a league, but they found the game was completely incapable of balanced play hence killing peoples enthusiasm for anything, but a few one offs every month or so. Fact is Age of Sigmar can't support leagues, tournaments or even campaigns hell it feels more like a board game then a minitures game. A decent board game, but nothing I would waste more then a hour or so on a week.
This is what put me off warhammer as a kid because it was too expensive and always sounded too complicated for me. But with AoS I've been able just to jump straight into it (also helps I'm a grown ass man with my own money now)
It's not a weird gene, it's an awesome gene!
+Brian Hayne I like to think so, too. Thanks for watching!
As someone who just began getting into miniature war gaming, I do find AOS to be an easy and interesting game to play. The other editions seemed very complicated and I never understood the army books concept. Obviously, those who were accustomed to the earlier editions will find AOS to probably be too easy and unchallenging. But I figured that the new game was more for people like me who were just beginning. This was an excellently prepared video! It was Informative and really defended the other side of players. Well done Atom 👍love your videos btw!
+Ryan Gahman Thanks, I really appreciate it! I feel like I rarely actually prepare for these types of videos, so I'm glad it comes across as if I'm a prepared adult. Thanks for watching!
My Stages of Immersion into Warhammer Age of Sigmar:
1) I decided to try it because I had a lot of old fantasy sets that I bought for 40k conversions
2) On round bases, this did not contradict my 40k collection.
3) at first I made models that could also be in 40k, but then I realized that there is more freedom in Mortal Realms than 40k - after all, each model can be given a taste of its own Realm.
4) Now I am specifically looking for more old fantasy miniatures to convert them to Age of Sigmar.
Think about it: millions of people have old Bretonnia, the same rows of the same model. And very few have Bretonnia on oval/round bases in a new fantastic setting. It's unique - it's better!!!
Over here Fantasy was dying. And AoS after some initial good sales basically gave a neckshot to it all.
See I got into Fantasy via Mordheim, and I am still into Mordheim, I love that game. The slow death of Mordheim always irked me and though its not a dead game per se, trying to get a game of it is nigh on impossible. I eventually upgraded to a full WFB army and then got a few games in and just as I was getting into it the End Times happened and the Old World got smushed and Age of Sigmar was spawned.
What irks me about AOS is the horrible way that GW killed the old world, that NEVER needed to happen. The massive over simplification and mockery of long term players that occured with the "updated" army rules. I also utterly detest the rampant and heavy handed copyrighting/trademarking of everything now i.e, its not a Dragon its a Magmaroth or its not an Orc its and Orruk, it feels like GW saying "if you aren't using our stuff you are against us."
I think what I'm saying is that I can be OK with the game itself and GW still make some great minis (though the amount of Zbrush sculpts over traditional sculpted models is starting to push me away but thats another matter.) but I hate, hate, hate how they handled the transition from Old World to the Sigmarverse.
Oh and yeah this stuff is still freakishly expensive.... I really need to try Frostgrave.
ok while Your Argument is a Good one
I Would like to Counter with this.
Why did they have to Kill Fantasy to do it, they could have put some effort into a skirmish version of fantasy or even a bridge game of fantasy into 40K that was skirmish based
or even a re-release of Mordheim (skirmish version of Fantasy from 6th ED) where the most models any player Needs to have is 20 and that is only if you play Skaven or Orcs and Goblins (there might be other warbands to idk) but for most the warbands the model cap is 15
but as it stands they completely discontinued and killed off an entire game in their effort
+Isaac Hudzinski "Why did they have to Kill Fantasy to do it"
That's absolutely my main point of contention. Make a new game! Make a new IP! Is GW THAT creatively bankrupt?
I will be brief: Everything you say is true. But if it's 4 pages of inkjet rules and the same models, why did it need to replace the old game?
Because when they are trying to revitalize something that loses them money, having to versions of a game confuses new players. No game or company would do this. People don't quite grasp how much fantasy was tanking. in the end there were reports of it comprising 5%!!!! of their revenue.
There's a lot more rules on the warscrolls and the models.
I’m 51. I’ve never gamed. About two weeks ago, I saw your video on painting the Gutrot Spume, and had to find out what it was...when I saw all the Maggotkin of Nurgle, I was astonished!
From there, I discovered Nighthaunts...oh, man...
So, thanks for passing that bug on to me!
Picked up Liekoron The Executioner to mess with, with the group of Blightkings inbound.
In my area some people didn't like 8th edition , but it seems much more people don't like AOS.
Ture that, the local game store stopped stocking AOS because no wanted to buy it, now it's only 40k
My main issues with AoS were the total lack of point balancing. I found the Sudden Death Objectives to be rather broken, if you have the ability to summon stuff. And the loss of Strength vs Toughness for determining wounds.
I liked all the things you mentioned in this video. Those were much needed. But they could have done so while keeping the good stuff.
They've thrown the Baby out with the Bathwater.
The General's Handbook did fix a lot of those issues though.
They would have gotten so much less hate from their loyal fans if they started with that.
Wait wait wait...You are telling me I can just pick a box of anything AOS and just play?
You!
Are telling me!
That GW has given Free rules for both the game and the models? Not only this but the Rules are 4 pages long!
I am impressed with GW.
Ok So
I had heard AOS came out and everyone went crazy.
I heard things like they had killed off races like Dwarves or whatever.
I heard that warhammer was dead and the sky was falling and even that some kid burnt an army... The amount of Butthurt around AOS made it hard to figure out what was going on and I could find no one saying anything good about it. Till I watched this.
Before AOS I liked the idea of playing dwarfs. At the time I was playing 40k and asked someone about WFB and they basicly said. Its really complex (even more than 40k) and I needed to buy like 200+ models. So that killed it for me. I simply could not play both 40k and Warhammer. Now I might just get into it and try to play some dwarfs.
Thanks for giving some useful information on Warhammer AOS.
+Chris Murphy And GW just released a whole bunch of Dwarf stuff in the past few weeks. I'd tell you to watch the last couple of episodes of 'The Andy & Rem Show" on TH-cam to learn about the new dwarf units that are out now. Thanks for watching!
So here's the thing, I'm a Warhammer player for the last four editions and I would have jumped on the AoS band wagon without a second thought if it had been the following:
a) A Historical Setting (play during the ACTUAL Age of Sigmar - you know before the Empire was formed)
b) A full blown skirmish game in the Warhammer World - Mordheim Warbands all grown up
c) Still allowed you to rank up those skirmishers into ranks using an alternative system (i.e. modified version of the current rules)
But no, the world got blown up and they flipped me the bird and said "we're done with world you've loved for the past 15+ years, accept the new or GTFO."
It's true: they didn't seem to think much about the PR of the change and how it would effect the current player base. Thanks for watching!
+Tabletop Minions I feel like this should not be a surprise to anyone. GW has built a business on screwing their customers over. Hey....were going to release an "expansion" to the rules. Please buy everything you will need for this new ruleset....because we are going to cancel the entire game in a few months...
Age of sigmar and it's low barrier of entry is why I'm coming to play. New players are popping up everywhere. before it was a couple of grumbly dudes in the back with buckets and boxes of models, but now is fresh and vibrant. My few models go a long way and I can pull out my 5 extra formations of models and drastically change the composition of my army every game. Also, these new simple rules means i'm not constantly getting blind sided by BS rules every turn.. every game. it's fun.
I'm glad to hear you're enjoying it. Thanks for watching!
Personally I love Age of Sigmar, it's revitalised Warhammer Fantasy in my area. Not to mention that it's brilliantly designed in that it's perfectly balanced in terms of armies, no one army is more powerful than another because *everyone's* OP. And to paraphrase The Incredibles, when everyone's OP, no one's OP.
+Bainbow That's a good point about everyone being OP. I know a lot of Fantasy players who looked at the warscrolls and said, "Wow, [crappy unit name goes here] doesn't suck any more. That's kinda cool!" I suspect it was part of GW's plan. Thanks for watching!
Please, bring back the Empire and Franz or I will cry :'(
Wait, Franz is going to cry? He doesn't seem the type. Thanks for watching!
I have this crazy theory that the Celestant-Prime is Franz.
+Tabletop Minions I'm sure it will something like
- Oh Karl Franz, where did you go?
- I just came back from somewehrearoundtheoldworld.
- Oh! And you are alone?
- I have a 3 millions of men behind me.
- Oh god...
Ok good news mr. Tabletop minion man, this hardcore 40k and Horus Heresy player has been converted, I've bought two packs of wood elves and I'm looking forward to getting started with a new wargame :) HOWEVER, and this is an important however, was it really the right decision to forbid players and customers playing fantasy battles in store? I know tons of FB players and it seems kinda dickish that they're, essentially, forced to play this new system. That's why I'm mad at GW with the whole AoS thing.
+lenrat117 I'm assuming that you are talking about a GW store forbidding people from playing 8th in the store. This is why I don't go to GW stores (also because they only have one or two in my entire state and they're several hours away from me) and instead I shop and play at independent gaming stores. Thanks for watching!
My problem with Age of Sigmar is actually fairly simple. I LOVE the look of the models, especially the new models. I was never into old fantasy because there were no players in my area, although I wish I had been at this point. my biggest gripe is that they bill the game as a beer and pretzels type of game, with a very limited rule set and a pretty flexible format. But here is the big problem. it is NOT a beer and pretzels type of game for the cost. My store offers at 10% discount on all GW products but i still see boxes of 5 models going for 70 dollars. The big monster minis like a big greater demon or Carnosaur can run you easily over 120 dollars for just 1 model. While there is nothing in the rules saying you can't play with just 1 model I have to point out, that is lame. You want to play with a large army, and get some model diversity but that will run you a few hundred dollars. Compare that to Warmachine, where for the same amount of money you could invest in a super solid game, with very well done rules and a very active and competitive environment and with actual support from the parent company. To me it is a no brainer.
The issue with GW is they began as a game company that sells games and evolved into a company that sells models. Which is fine, but a firm cannot drastically shift and maintain loyalty while dropping fecal matter on your fanboys. While I agree that AoS is an interesting shift towards a "toe-in" intro game strategy, but WHFB was already there maintaining it at 15(ish)% would not be difficult. Why not do both? Intro to AoS and upsell over time to WHFB, that would have been the best strategy. But that's not the game plan, they write rules (creating power shifts) to sell models. The only players that engage in this are the "pay-to-win" crowd. Most people typically do not like to play with those types of players, and this tends to push people out of the game. GW has been self-cannibalizing its player base for short term gains for years and its finally caught up with them. Time to take your medicine.
Another reason fantasy was shrinking is because they priced their target market out of playing the game or buying multiple armies. A typical fantasy player would dedicate to one army and add another every 24-30 months, that is a long-term approach to selling models, and GW has the patience of a spoiled child. It is also a risky business model because you have to retain that customer for those 24-30 months as well, especially if you ignore primary stakeholders (players, distributors, retailers).
GW is proud of their IP, and they should be, but for a company to focus on geeks and nerds (which until recently have not widely been known for economic success) and adopt a long-term differentiation strategy based on premium prices is silly. Leveraging past investments (buying an army, modeling supplies, and rule books) as a method of retaining customers is bad business. Prices always go up, regardless of GW reducing the quality of raw materials and trying to pass it off as something worthy of a 15% price hike. While wargamers tend to be on extream ends of the economic spectrum, very few of them are stupid. People that play GW games are very involved, rarely are they, casual players. Organizations cannot treat well informed and engaged customers like they are stupid people. Like they will not figure out their anuses are being abused, and their colons are being used as a trampoline by GW's exploitive business model. It is an absolute shame that a company has such a strong following that it has allowed GW to screw up so often and just now, 30 years later, begin to crumble. Think what this game could have been if they built a model to serve primary stakeholder and convert secondary stakeholders (in this case players of other miniature games) to primary ones. Atom, you covered this in an interview about your relationship with GW and it's non-existant PR department. Today it is too easy to connect with your public to not do it, complete failure on the part of GW.
Sorry about the book, got off on a rant.
+T “Claymaker52” DB I absolutely agree with your point about GW not connecting with their customers, especially in this day and age. My day job is in marketing - mostly digital - and in my mind Games Workshop is doing *everything wrong* in that respect. It's astounding. They're obviously not doing themselves any favors. As much as I think that Age of Sigmar is a smart move on their part, it's on top of a stupendous pile of dumb moves they've made in the last ten years. Thanks for watching!
Thank you for the considerate and well-stated thoughts quite contrary to the Internet zeitgeist but quite in line with a reasonable assessment of the game. Applause for Uncle Atom, one of the most eloquent and thoughtful commentators on the miniatures gaming hobby!
+Ed Grzetich Wow! Thank you so much for your eloquent and thoughtful comment! I really appreciate it, and thanks for watching!
I think the biggest issue is the same issue GW has.. complete lack of communication I'm a relitive late commer the WHFB. but I was genuinely excited for AoS. but there was only leaks and hints and guesses. then in the vacuum of info people started to worry and fret and scared ppl are angry ppl. for 2 weeks prior to the release their was no info from GW only a blue poster and incredibly shitty you tube video saying AOS IS COMMING !! and then when it came every one was like 'what ???'
I think you make many valid points but GW seemed to think it's an either / or situation get new players but screw the older players. This was unessary and badly handled if GW came clean and said exactly what you said that would of eased a lot of hate. But they said nothing.
I'm rambling now. I'm not even bitter as I wasn't over invested in the old world to begin with. but aos leaves me cold.
I am getting into 9th and I believe 9th will ease a lot if the hate and when emotions calm down ppl perhaps ppl will get into AoS.
I do hope it's a success. anyway I'm rambling now. so I'll shut up ;)
Yes, GW is absolutely abysmal at communicating with their player base. It's honestly surprising for a company of their size in this day and age. Thanks for watching!
I just think the renaming is silly, as is the alliance system. I've also heard the lore sucks.
Ang3 li0n theres lore about why the realm of FIRE has VOLCANOES. It included a dwarf god and a magmadroth god(?) fighting to the death, before they both shattered.. becoming fucking volcanoes.. because details
Respectfully I disagree. In my opinion anything coming out of GW is not good for the gaming community. I'll play my current Empire, and Imperial Guard with the old rules with my club, but I will never buy another "new" unit from GW. I do not believe they give a damn about their player base, so I'll choose to keep my money to companies that I feel care about the gaming community.
+Blair Fenning I appreciate that you respectfully disagree, and being reasonable people on the Internet, we can agree to disagree. Honestly though, you have to vote with your dollars. If you don't agree with GW on this, then you *shouldn't* buy the stuff, I agree with that. Thanks for watching!
Dude, your voice is a smooth as the butter on my morning toast!!!
+PrettyWide I've gotten compliments on my voice many time, but never quite like that. Thanks for watching!
This sounds really good, but the thing that has thus far kept me out of Sigmar is the cost for new boxes which is pushing it a little too far even for GW. I understand that miniatures are a pricey hobby, and have made my piece with that, but I can't go around dropping 50 bucks for 5 Sigmarines.
+J. P. Morris (Virobrain) That price is (I think) exactly the same price for five terminators, which are roughly the same size. Therefore, I don't see that as being super overpriced within the realm of GW stuff. Those three Varanguard for $100 though? That is still pretty crazy to me, so you're not wrong. Thanks for watching!
There is one important part that is generally overlooked. New prices, a decent AOS bunch of minis is not that far away from whay 2400 points of fantasy used to be say a year ago (depending on the army of course)
+Lucas Perez Yes but they MINIMUM to get in is much lower. Before your talking BRB, 70, Army book, 50, Hero, 25, and at least two boxes of troops, 35. So your paying a minimum of 220 just to get started. Now the minimum could be you just want to do a 1v1 with someone else starting and they guy you like is 25. So compare 25 to a Minimum of 220, thats a LOT more appealing to others. Also you dont have specific points so while a box of Eternals might cost 50 its not like you have to have 2 of them just to start playing.
I know this is late but I've build a 113 wound army (with I think around 2k points for 8th ed) completely to my liking with £160. I have 40 infantry models (20 swords,10 crossbows, 10 greatswords). 6 single model units (3 wizards, warrior priest, witch hunter, general.) 3 Monster models (Demigryphs) and a character (volkmar on a war altar) and a Helblaster volley cannon. Considering this is a legacy army I'm saving about £120 on not buying the books.
For a long time a young would be player it was so difficult to continue playing 40k with a limited budget. I think Sigmar makes our wonderful world so much more accessible! Definitely a step in the right direction.
I totally agree, and hear from many new players who are getting into the hobby because of Age of Sigmar. Thanks for watching!
The problem with Age of Sigmar is that the idea behind it is good, but the execution is horrible.
+Grubnar Incorrect. Perhaps its just your play style, or preferences, but it does what it does perfectly well, in that it allows a game that is not on rails with overbearing restrictions. Its dynamic nature and flexibility allows for huge amounts of creative strategy. How many games have you played? When? Even I, a huge proponent of the game, had issues when it first launched and doubts, especially in my 1st games. Since I've found a huge amount of appreciation for the game. I'd never play 8th again, or a game like it. Feels like playing with handcuffs. If you don't agree, no issues here, I respect your opinion, but its simply your pov. I hope you find games you like better. :)
+Mc1gamer problem is there are no boundaries of any kind so games can often be broken before they have begun. and I have seen it said many times that the AoS box as is, is instant win for eternals.
Aurora07 Absolutely not true. I've played into the triple digits in games to date, and I admit early, after only a few games, I was teetering myself on giving up. The game is far far more dynamic and flexible than 8th ever could be. That game was on rails. And I'm a longtime warhammer player. AoS allows so much freedom to create your own tactics, formations. Its just not 8th! Its not 9th. Its its own game. It excels at a series of small-med games played not in a steamroller style (though lots of comps are trying to make it so) but as a scenario/objective driven narrative game. You play several games, linked, and the story is what you are playing as much as the guy/gal across the table. I've done countless videos on YT myself about this, not just unlocking the rules, unveiling new tactics, but also how to play. Some of my best games were against insurmountable odds, huge numerical disadvantages. Did I lose, in a sense. My group got wiped out, but much as the Spartans were defeated at Thermoplea vs a Persian army vastly bigger, if there's implications that are connected to the next game, and the next, its a far more rewarding experience! Its just that players need to be weened off the notion that the game HAS to be balanced, HAS to be a steamroller tournament style game. It can be, but that is also the beauty of AoS. You can overlay it in any way you want because the rules are that flexible. I prefer narrative/scenario/story, but that is a preference. Its NOT instant win, and I've yet to lose against the eternals. I've yet to see a game that is I-win. Its the vitriol that is spewed by people who are butt-hurt about the navigation away from the 8th edition style of play and the fact that those players don't know any other style (or seem not) other than games that crush thier enemies hobby as much as the armies on the table. I hope you give it a shot with people who are more open minded than that. After my own early experience I've dedicated myself (in gaming lol) to focus on unlocking the game, and I'm glad I didn't give up! Keep an open mind please :)
+Mc1gamer I played four games. It was unabashedly terrible with my armies. With modded rules, actual comps, and a few bits of balancing it can be fun, don't get me wrong. It just doesn't function as anything other than a melee with the new models. Now, the new models work great in the new system once you balance the sides, and the starter kit can be good fun. Old world armies just don't function in AoS, in my opinion.
+Paul Kelly I'm sorry but disagree more. I'm not saying you are wrong to have a personal preference, that is your call as it is for each and every person. However, you are still, like I've mentioned in countless videos, still bringing in notions from 8th edition and previous editions, and from your past experiences to a game that is built to be different. Its not about balance, its not about a battle line in a tournament like setting, its not about even sides or balance. I've played more games than I can count and the mass majority is WITH LEGACY MODELS UNITS AND WARSCROLLS. Sorry for the caps but I cannot emphasize this enough. The legacy armies, units, characters, ALL viable and enjoyable. If you are trying to emulate 8th edition, you will be miserable with AoS. I was. I played 3 games myself, and I was ignorant of the possibilities too, and it all seemed like a scrum in the middle, but I starter my own YT unlocking series and have never looked back. Comp isn't needed, though its fine to change things to suit your preferences there too. The game is not meant for steamroller type games and need a massive comp package to adapt it to that playstyle. Its built to be faster, cleaner, shorter games, small-mid sized (it bogs down when it gets too big!) and with a narrative/scenario/objective focus. Once you establish that you are playing a string of connected games, where each affects the next, where you don't worry about an even balance of supposedly exact power (which btw, has always been a illusion no matter the game played lol), and once you buy into playing 2, 3, 4 games in a sitting, with implications connected to each, with a mini story/campaign like vibe, then you are seeing how AoS works. That is why ALL the hardcovers released have a series of scenarios that exemplifies this. They are not even battles, they are a string of connected games that tell a story and affect each other, they each are deep in special objectives, new ways to deploy, staggered deployment, new command abilities, etc. This is NOT 8th edition and its built so that you can have not only freedom to build your army as you desire (yes, you can have a flight of dragons, a herd of Giants or a mass of bodies in a horde army and they ALL work) as well as not put your units on rails to only move in preset ways, it opens tremendous dimension for formations, baiting moving, blocking lines of retreat, flanking runs that older editions could NEVER allow. Its far far deeper than four games could convery. I'm well over 100 games and I'm still learning different ways players use layered defense, deceptive deployment, etc. The very BEST games have been massively imbalanced. A small elite army against a massive hoard, with the goal to outlast as long as possible, but in the end, it will be a tide that washed over you. On its own, yeah, a loss, but as part of a narrative, could be a strategic victory. Sound familiar? Think the last stand of the 300 ;) Yes, that is possible, fun and more, and could never be done in a steamroller type event, or in previous editions. If that's not your thing, hey, fine, but you simply CANNOT draw conclusions with such a limited amount of exposure. I almost went that route myself. I nearly quit after my 3rd game lol. I'm thrilled I didn't. If this still isn't your style, thats cool, but lets not crap on a system, on a game, that you just didn't give enough of a chance. If you feel other games are better for your style, hey great. I will say, I'm glad you at least tried to put minis on the table and see for yourself. So many just hear the whines and cries and lies, and rage of those idiots who just want to see it fail b/c its not the game they played for years (hey, I've been around a looong time too, I understand) but I sure wish, after my experiences, I had a chance to demo for them (and you). I've been shocked myself at the response nearly all (yeah, not all!) have had when they've played the game in a different way than they did in 8th and earlier editions. I hope you keep an open mind, but either way, good luck in your gaming.
I completely agree.
it was actually the rules simplicity that really got me.
I love to glue my little dudes together and give them an awesome paint and practice different skills with painting, texturing and weathering. but the rules were always intimidating. I have truck loaded of awesome 40k still in there boxes because I need to find someone to show me those baby steps of rules to get me into the game. as a result my 40k stuff is unpainted.
when age of Sigmar came out. 4 pages of rules, boom starter box bought clipped and painted. I know people seam to hate on the SigMarines but I think they are awesome. The added plus, because the models a on the large side they are really easy to paint up and look really cool really quickly.
awesome idea of them to attempt to revive an entry point game.
my only complaint would go back to GW prices. but I do like what they are doing with the new faction specific starter sets. can't wait to see more :-)
happy gaming
thanks for the cool and inspirational channel
+David Brian The 'Get Started' boxes aren't very different from their Battalion boxes of old, they've just gotten a bit smarter with their marketing and called them 'Get Started' boxes. It helps to draw in new players, hopefully. Thanks for watching!
The points you raise are good and i agree with you that it made business sense for GW to do age of sigmar,however i still feel GW could have kept WHFB alive as a separate game within the same world,all GW had to do was make a simple skirmish set of rules in the WHFB old world,and kept WHFB as a scaled up version of the game.
But i suppose the suits wanted a complete re-branding of the setting so that why we ended up with age of sigmar.I do miss the Lore and appeal of the old world be nice if GW do something with it again even if its warmaster again id be happy with that.
+Conan the Barbarian Problem is then they are adding to costs and not replacing. If you simply put AoS as an alternative then your still paying to make Fantasy and its only make 17% of your profits. This wasnt a situation of "how can we boost Fantasy sales" it was "Fantasy either has to go or we have to DRASTICALLY increase sales".
I've tried to get into fantasy in the past but I was blown away with the sheer volume of rules and the impregnability of it it from the outsider. So I turned to 40K, but even now I'm turned off by it because I feel it demands huge armies and hours of time to play with tomes stacked high left and right. With age of sigmar a four page download away... damn right I'm giving it a go!
Exactly, and that's exactly what they built it for. Thanks for watching!
Yeah im a 13 year old boy and im collecting money to buy miniatures.
Goodluck dude, you're going to need either really nice parents or find someone elses to kill and take their money. xD
AdrianGrave Its cristmas soon so... ;)
Dont get discouraged. Games Workshop is hard to get into, but see if you can start with playing "mordheim" or "killteam" where you only need a few models to play. + dont buy everything brand, I got my first paints from target and my Xacto from walmart. Be strategic with how its spent and if its still not enough, play X wing instead because its the salvation of every gamer who doesnt have 3 figures of hobby cash on hand to play
Seem's you were right dude in the recent financial report it's revealed that AOS has sold more than fantasy. The business big wigs on the gaming forums sales are now flat instead of a loss and they are on the right track again.
We learnt some valuable
lessons during the year on how to deliver product system changes on this scale and as we released more of the range in the second half of
the year, we finished the year with sales of Warhammer: Age of Sigmar at a higher rate than Warhammer has enjoyed for several years."
Always glad to hear when I'm right. Thanks for watching!
I'm sad Warhammer fantasy died but also glad as it filtered out all of the snobby egocentric players in my community who made the experience of gaming less fun.
I dunno man, I mean it filtered all the fantasy players, snobby or otherwise. If your goal is to remove snobs then let's just ditch 40k too.
I loved the positioning aspect to fantasy, and the look of the ranked up units. I was the least play-to-win, snobby person and I don't mind that other people like age of sigmar, but people like me have gone from warhammer, as well as the 1% snobs.
It's not just sad because it's gone, it's sad because there were a lot of people who enjoyed it, even if some were snobs (same as with all games).
Although obviously they may have made the correct choice.
This was a great video. I played GW games since the Rogue Trader days, but stopped a long time ago due to the amount of time needed to paint armies. I haven't played for years (other than a few campaigns using Realm of Chaos Warbands rules from the very first ROC books) - Age of Sigmar has really sparked my interest, not only because of the new minis, but also because it gives me an easy way in to re-paint just a few of my miniatures
+Robert Fransgaard Absolutely. I really feel that's what GW was hoping for. Plus, maybe you'll buy some new models because they're cool. And then maybe, eventually you'll start buying 40k models and build an army. But it's totally up to you. Thanks for watching!
They should have simply made a new edition of Warhammer that was simplified much like AoS, but also made an "Apocalypse"-style expansion so that when people amassed enough miniatures they would organize their force into regiments and play just like old Warhammer. Everybody would've won (no silly new background lore).
+James Gordley They seemed set on switching everything to round bases, so I'm not sure how well that would have worked. Interesting idea, though. Thanks for watching!
+Tabletop Minions
Well, they did gave us ranks of Uruk-Hai pikemen and whatnot in LotR (which was all on round bases, and covered battles of every size). The biggest problem I can think of is making bigger movement trays for slightly looser formations (due to the width of round bases), and telling the WH vets how spaced out their old square-based models should be if they're playing against a newer player. But how inconvenient is that, in comparison to having the whole thing wiped out? :)
I've gone and bought Storm of Sigmar and the citadel essentials kit. Great only £40 to experience the new rules after 12 years of not playing Fantasy or 40k. And guess what, now I'm hooked again.
the shorter rules sure need some more depth, in the form of expansions or at least a better army points system. But besides that huge improvement. Much easier to access and do whilst having a busy work rota.
I think a few friends are buying in to it thanks to Sigmar too.
Dear uncle atom,I've recently invested in the small AoS starter kit "storm of sigma" after almost ten years from stopping playing 40k. I was wondering does AoS have the freedom that 40k offered I.e. invented pretty the much what you want chapter/heroes etc. I've spent a lot of time to research (for free admittedly) but everything seems very set in stone. Other than the odd post on instagram I rarely see a stormcast army that isn't ultramarine (my apologises blue and gold). Adding to this the models seem very set, I'm struggling to find a hero who is almost a blank sheet to build on for example a space marine captain (the name may have changed...) was pretty much an open book to build as you saw fit. I've watched many of your videos and heard how you suggest this is a gateway game to 40k.I understand due to the basic game being free its unreasonable of me to expect the depth that 40k offered, however I would like to atleast construct my army/heroes/warscolls as I choose. What are you thoughts? Is there possibility to play storm cast not loyal to sigmar? I apologise if my comment appears stupid, I've be out of the "fluff" of war games a while. I really enjoy your videos, building my enthusiasm enough to make a return!Kind regardsConnor
You can paint them however you want. In fact, the hardcover original Age of Sigmar book shows tons of different paint schemes for the Stormcasts. Thanks for watching!
I have a 4000 point Dwarf army and a 3000 point Bretonian army. All that time and energy and money wasted.
Now I play Flames of War.
I wanted to get into the hobby for years but the cost and rulebook scared me...
The AoS starter set came out and I figured: why not? So the last few months I have been painting a lot (the main reason I wanted to get into it really) and having a lot of fun doing that.
I have very few friends who play miniature games but a lot who really are into board games.
AoS is the perfect way for me to bring a bunch of models (2 reasonably balanced armies) and let my opponent choose his and have a fantastic afternoon of gaming.
Same thing with the Betrayal at Calth box, finished painting that, haven't got around to playing it yet but it's a game that is easy enough to explain to a new player and have a blast.
+drappke Getting new players into wargames is great when you can bring models for both sides, which is why smaller skirmish games are so great. Thanks for watching!
As someone who was outta the scene (so to speak) for over 15 years, I can totally understand why GW have mixed it up. Unfortunately their business model ruined the game, as it was ridiculously expensive to play.
I wouldn't be surprised if the AOS model is going to happen for 40k, too.
Having said that, I've had my fill of painting dwarfs and tau (2 squads and some Kroot...), I've jumped ship to Hail Caesar, Malifaux and X-Wing.
Today I bought three times the miniatures (via Warlord Games) than I did with one set of GW Tau. And the 40k game in its current ruleset is so 'meh'...
AOS is great in that it gives a relatively quick jumping off point.
the issue is that doing AoS for 40k would mean that factions have to work together seamlessly, which they don't (lore-wise).
+Tïr Eoghain Blackman I'm not sure that they'll give 40k 'the Age of Sigmar treatment' anytime soon. 40k is still a big cash cow for them, and I don't know if they'd want to mess with is that much. I think the potential backlash would be of a much greater magnitude. We'll see, I guess. In my mind, 8th edition 40k will be released this summer. Mark my words! And thanks for watching!
They killed my faction almost as an afterthought and wife's got melded with her rivals. Not exactly a great intro to us.
Tomb Kings getting killed and Elves getting melded or?
Ex tomb king player, here. I feel your pain bro. At least we had a last army book before being erased, some were even unluckier that us (bretonnia)
Thanks for sharing your thoughts on AoS. I don't think my local gaming ship knows about the rules because when I inquired about AoS, they gave the impression that I HAD to get all new books. Which to me would've been a pain to buy. Knowing that I can download the rules and Warscrolls for each army makes me want to attempt to play Warhammer again after not playing, but buying models about 15 years ago.
So yeah, I'm back in.
Good thing I didn't sell my models. Lol.
+soundwave810 all the AoS books are mostly fluff with some battle plans which are just various scenarios to add some narrative to the games. All core rules are absolutely free.
+soundwave810 Check 'em out. I think you'll like them, especially if you haven't played in awhile. Thanks for watching!
+Skoo Zi This guy knows the score. Thanks for watching!
I agree! I was never into fantasy before AoS. I actually used AoS as a jumping on point to start a Lizardmen army. Unfortunately, the AoS and Fantasy scene in my area isn't all that big.
I've never been a fantasy player, or age of sigmar for that matter. But I do think I was the right move for them. I've been a 40k enthusiast for the better part of my life, but I find the game far too complicated to fully understand. I do focus more on painting and modelling, but I do want to play the game, too, and most of the time, it's just too complicated to enjoy. Plus there's all the codexes and rulebooks. If they did age of sigmar to 40k, I'd happily support it.
+Jon Shackell Maybe look into starting Age of Sigmar. The rules are a bit simpler, and you can kind of pick and choose the cool models you want for your army. Thanks for watching!
Tabletop Minions Thanks for the advice. I might look into it. Although you CAN pick and choose in 40k with unbound armies.
I think it is time that GW gets what they deserve. They went more greedy every year and now they shall pay the price for that.
Well I dont like AoS rules, but i do like Fantasy battlerules. But now im stuck with old rule book that will never be updated until Fantasy battles become a distant memory.
How can this be good in any way shape or form?
Make a new game with its rules or even parallel to Fantasy battles, same story same units, different rule books. There is absolutely no need for AoS to be "New Fantasy". They just split and thinned out player base...
+DirtEVids It probably wouldn't have been financially viable to support Fantasy and Age of Sigmar at the same time. I'm sure they can't afford the resources due to their flagging sales. I get the feeling that one of their new key initiatives (finally) is to try to attract newer players, and they felt Age of Sigmar had a better chance of doing that than Fantasy did. It was all a business decision. We shall see how it plays out. Thanks for watching!
Play with the old rules. Now you know they wont change things.
My dad works at games workshop so I get free models yay
That must be very nice for you. Thanks for watching!
Tabletop Minions It's really cool! I like your videos a lot.
Please set me up with some ;)
Tell him Age of Sigmars lore wipe is a mistake.
Thats child abuse!
Just want to say I love your videos! I just started into the miniatures hobby (backing Kingdom Death: Monster started this obsession) and videos like the "wet palette" have been a huge help. Also picked up Age of Sigmar starter set thanks to you. Keep up the awesome work!
Glad to hear you're getting into the hobby, and glad to hear the videos are helping. Thanks for watching!
Karl Franz does not approve
I don't mind the rules but I hate the models. They're just 40king Fantasy. I'll keep buying their older models but doubt if I'll buy any of the new ones.
How so? Because they added a new race people like to say are "sigmarines"? That's one race buddy.
We just got big fat ugly ass fire slayers too. Sorry, but they look like 40k models. We'll wait and see what's next.
Published by Osprey. They have produced a range of wargames rules books. Good old fashioned wargaming. No supporting ranges of miniatures supplements etc etc just a book. About £12 in the UK.
currently trying to get into wargaming, this convinced me AoS is worth it, especially now with the generals handbook. thanks!
+Trevor Brinkhoff Glad you're getting into it. Have fun, and thanks for watching!
Here’s the problem for me: I only play AoS. I started playing it January of 2019. I jumped in as much as I wanted. It’s been 8 months. I’ve lost 6 complete armies since then due to rules changes and deleted warscrolls. (Lord of Slaanesh on Demonic Mount, Bloodstoker, 4 Repeater Bolt Thrower, 4 Sorceress on Dark Pegasus, 120 Witch Aelves) This game has destroyed everything I liked time and time again. There’s no doubt in my mind I’m going to lose thousands of more dollars when they delete the 10k points of tomb kings warscrolls next month.
Still not entirely convinced it's a better investment than crack but, hey, different strokes for different folks.
+MosquitoHunter I'm not sure you can sell crack on eBay, so that's maybe a benefit in wargaming's favor. Thanks for watching!
As a former WFB player, and a current AoS player (though not for long), I see AoS as a completely different game than WFB. The new models, combat, and rules function well in a vacuum of newer models and their larger miniatures, but the game falls apart with much scale. It's not something I'd recommend to new players when Warmahordes or Frostgrave champion the skirmish and adventure categories so nicely. The new miniatures disappoint me greatly (though I do admit that Chaos has some superlative examples of their faction newly introduced). The main benefits of WFB were the unique rank-and-file combat and the heavy amount of their world's lore, both items not carried into AoS. I'm happy to have 9th Age, Warthrone, and Kings of War to replace the fallen titan, but the rise of a painfully unbalanced, overpriced skirmish game in a relatively crowded market (Warmahordes, 40k, MERCs, Frostgrave, Kings of War, Infinity, X-Wing, Malifaux, Necromunda, etc) seems relatively far-fetched to me personally.
Now if you enjoy collecting/painting those GW models and just want a simple game to show them off? AoS is a fantastic way to launch your entire art collection at another artist!
I feel as though they should make AoS rules that include 40k miniatures.
The new AoS sculpts look like shit. Moar spuce muhrains!
All they had to do was keep the old GRIMDARK lore, and release what amounted to Mordheim 2.0.
the new stormcasts you mean... cause the others are high quality. Even the stormcasts are they just look generic is all.
Original gw ecosystem: you buy the rulebook, you buy a box of plastic minis for a tenner: you play.
Recent gw ecosystem: give me all your money and stop crying.
Curent gw ecosystem: give me all your money, stop crying, and give me your mum's money, too.
Age of sigmar is the best game ever!!!! I've player it in three years
And what exactly prevented them from adding the unit rules to the box? You could’ve bought skellies and have their stats in the box. What prevented them from making a shorter, easier rules? And about the model count - they increased it themselves, look at the model count increase between 6th and 8th. What prevented them from introducing new game formats like open and narrative play?
And now AoS changed - you have 25 battletomes on GW website which give you a special rules for your faction. Models are still expensive and for a matched play you need at least 1000 points which is a lot of models, and thus cash. On top of that you need to add new books like Generals Handbook each year with additional rules, books like Morathi or Teclis and it makes the cost of the game even higher.
Today typical matched play game for 2k points is similar in model count to 2k WFB 6th ed.
There is one, major advantage that AoS has though and it’s bigger bases - models can have more dynamic poses and generally look better. I wish that when we’ll finally return to the Old World we’ll get new bases, square but larger. Or round as in ME on square movement trays. That would allow using the models i skirmish and big games easily.
All of this is flawed from the one simple fact, that they killed Fantasy to make this joke of a table top war game. Nobody wanted fantasy gone, they wanted it fixed from the "BUY ALL OF THE MODELS" rules that had been introduced in the recent editions. Of course nobody new was going to get into the game when it was twice as expensive as 40K and had become a jumbled mess with its newest rules.
All they needed to do was sit and think for a bit rather than have this sudden culling of an entire fantasy world so that they could trade mark some of the most cringe worthy names within any fantasy genre to date.
Not to mention how they completely pulled the rug on all the fantasy players who finally thought they were getting support for the game again only to find it being turned into "Fantasy the space marine-ing". Maybe if they had made it into an entirely different line for new comers to try out it wouldnt be so bad but i guess its too late for that.
When you first posted this video I would have REEEEEEd heavily. But at this point in time, I'm happy with all the post Soulwars stuff I'm seeing, to the point that I've started collecting and playing from time to time.
Warcry is also really good, and the Path to Glory restrictions plus Cities of Sigmar stuff, makes narrative campaigns great.
I think the idea of AoS is good. I have not played it yet but it's a bitter taste in the mouth that GW doesn't want veteran players anymore, you know those guys who took the time to lean the rules. If AoS was alongside WFB that would be cool kinda like the old days of hero quest and space crusade - here is the simple system quick and easy and short games and then here is the advanced rules WFB if you would like more in depth battles and have more time to spare. basically GW don't want to spend the time inventing a rules system. I would welcome in future pre - painted miniatures however (again) alongside unpainted. that way you spread the system to a wider audience.
+Aurora07
Do you think that Warhammer needed a rules overhaul?
+Paul Kelly depends how much of an overhaul you think it needs. I don't think it does. 8th had its problems to be sure and also had many good bits (like large monsters actually being able to do something) but I enjoyed 7th alot more so if we could pick and choose the best bits from each edition it could work out fairly well. I'm sure there are many custom rules online that work.
Since the vets never bought anything, I don't think they cared to much about them, no?
Your reasoning is right for the introduction part. However, I don't understand how you conceive that Age of Sigmar was the best move. What exactly holded them back from doing the little 4-page booklet for free with all the warscrolls and yadi yada and not releasing on the side ''Advanced age of sigmar'' or whatever with proper army composition, factions and point cost? Or why not make it a third IP as an alternate timeline (or w.e) into which you can use your fantasy model while still keeping their own fantasy brand (and solving the fucking inner problems like having to buy 4* 10-women box of witch elves for 70CAN each and keep regiment at a more slow number for khorne's sake). Also, X-Wing dosent just sell because its easy to pick up, it also sell because its an actual wargame with a lot of strategical depth where the company cares about the meta and the community, which GW din't do and still isnt doing properly as we speak. Sorry if I make any typos, I'm a french-canadian enthusiast that works into a wargaming store (if you ever come by montreal, try l'Abyss and ask for the wargame guy, I love your content)
GW is only in it for that sweet cash tho.
White box + round bases = $22 price increase, why would I buy $69 Grave Guard over $41 Skeleton Warriors? because they are better, to think I used to joke about the cost of the Blood Knights. But I agree in spirit the concept is good even the scenery is part of your army, some basic house rules and the game's not so bad. But I can't shake that cash grab feeling so for me its GW no the game.
+Rob Schneider AU$ btw. And I do like the started sets. both good value and a decent game size.
If grave guard were the same price as normal skellies then you'd never buy skellies. They do the costs semi-proportunate with their points cost because it makes sense for a number of reasons, primarily to make people less likely to just all have the same optimally cost-effective armies of elites. The costs are seemingly totally disconnected to material costs ect, and that's why.
Although if you've ever seen those dark eldar razor wings then you'll know that's not always the case...
I started playing GW core games in 1983 with WFB 1e. Checked out of the core stabled in 1998. AoS has brought me back in. Its a huge step in the right direction for their games.
I totally agree! I was completely intigued by the whole idea of painting my own models by hand before using them in tiny battles with other people, but I didn't feel like learning the rules to a complicated game. Then, when I walked into Games Workshop one time just to browse and see what the games looked like etc... I fell in love with Age of Sigmar (I have always been into Fantasy). However, I still did not fancy a heavy book just about the rules. Then, when the man who was working at the store handed me a four-page booklet of rules, I was completely surprised and ended up walking out of the store with all of the essential tools, some models (although only three small goblin-type creatures) and some paint. Therefore, I think that this version of the game is, as you said, the perfect strategy for GW to bring in multiple younger and/or new customers!!
It's true, and I'm glad to hear it's working. Thanks for watching!
Thank YOU for making videos that I actually enjoy watching all the way through!
;)
I've been collecting and painting Warhammer Fantasy miniatures since 2010, but I rarely played it, because I had nobody to play with. I tried to lure my brother and my wife into it, but I think you have to be really enthusiastic to start playing: the rules, the armybooks, the preparations for a battle (plus downloading softwares to set up armies and calculate points, etc), not to mention the costs of course. Maybe AoS solves this problem, but of course I understand the hardcore players' disappointment as well, because to me AoS compared to Warhammer 8th Edition is like kicking football in the backyard compared to (american) football. Anyway, I'm a collector and painter in the first place, so maybe my opinion is not that relevant... But then again, I never forget GW that they destroyed the greatly detailed Old Worlde.
hey man, thanks so much for making this video. many great points and I've been enjoying the game this whole time I'm glad other people are at least checking it out.
I'm glad you're enjoying it. Thanks for watching!