Heart Rate Training w/ Dr. Phil Maffetone, Founder of the MAF Method | The Drop E179
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 6 ส.ค. 2023
- We probably should have had him on a long time ago, but better late than never. Dr. Phil Maffetone is a coach, author, innovator, and founder of the 180 Formula and the MAF test for heart rate training. He's basically the godfather of the field, which has seen a huge surge in followers over the last decade. He's also been an advisor to music legends like Rick Rubin, Red Hot Chili Peppers, Johnny Cash, and James Taylor.
In this episode, we talk about heart rate training and its benefits, as well as his new research into music and its affect on the mind and training. This is a long one, but it was a lot of fun and super interesting!
Learn more about Dr. Maffetone's work: philmaffetone.com/
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Great conversation Robbe and bonus points for your mustache! Dr Maffetone has made a huge positive difference in my life and that of many other athletes around the world. Everything is connected, it’s not just about the running, it’s also about the other areas in our daily life: stress levels, nutrition, recovery, mindset, etc. These things combined will turn us into a stronger, healthier and happier athlete.
So yes, health first and running performance will follow. Stoked to see Dr Maffetone on The Drop!
Outstanding interview Robbe. Excellent content from Dr. Phil. Will give the MAF guideline a try.
Would've been VERY interesting to have had Meghann and Phil on at the same time. Maybe a Steve Magness type also.
Right! I’m watching the Keto part now and I desperately want to hear Feathers’ opinion
Yes I'm very interested in seeing Feathers opinion on this as both draw from science and I get everyone's nutrition needs are different. Im all about carbs but then I think back to timea before we had crap food and carbs and were very physical but our life expectancy was lower, granted there are many more facts than nutrition and exercise to life expectancy. Id definitely like to see the debate between the Phil and Feathers! For now everything in moderation for me!
Wonderful interview. Informative and insightful. Thx for sharing.
Love this interview! As for nutrition, I think it’s great to remind people we don’t need a TON of carbs to spend extra time on low intensity stuff. May work for some, but easily overdone. A little old school, simple eating is a good idea.
Great interview. Brilliant guest. You should create more such content.
Awesome podcast! A great honour to hear from the father of MAF training himself
Loved loved loved this interview ❤ Thank you Robbe for hosting the OG 🫡🤙🏽 My question regarding MAF training, fueling, stressors and performance is how things change for the perimenopausal, menopausal and post menopausal athlete.
I’ve tried to give the MAF method a go as best I can and if I haven’t gotten faster, at least I’ve been able to avoid injuries since I started doing HR based training. I’m in the middle of Marathon training and I am excited to see how race day will treat me and how my body will have adapted to racing conditions over this entire year.
Also, wonderful to hear about our sugar addiction as well as the effect of music on us as athletes (but also on society)
Awesome interview. Love to hear uncensored opinions these days.
For someone who has been "researching" since the 70s, he has very little peer reviewed publications. Reading through much of his material and understanding his approach, one realizes that it is mostly biological reductionism. Now, do people have success on his methods. Likely so, especially if coming from a training background that is too moderate/high intensity based, where any sort of slowing down is going to help (80/20 for example).
As a population do we tend to eat too much and/or too much (simple) carbs? Without doubt. These are not surprising and the solution more underwhelming than you'd think. Even with "minor adjustments", 180-age is still formulaic and not based in anything empirical nor particularly individual in its foundation.
Life isn't that hard in theory. Eat less/eat better than you probably do. Exercise mostly easily, occasionally moderately, rarely intensely. Find ways to reduce stress.
For sure, the method is pretty simple. But for 90% of people, if you say, "run slower, eat better," absolutely nothing will change (especially since most runners' slow pace is not actually slow at all). Most people need a framework, one that isn't too complicated and that one can wrap their head around. The MAF formula and training method provides that and the results speak for themselves.
@@Believeintherun I want to start by saying that I do appreciate the podcast and I thought it a good one, so thank you. For sure, anecdotally, there are plenty of successes. I just don't believe he's caught lightning in a bottle. But I also don't buy-in to being in chronic ketosis. However, if it is meaningful to people and helps them reach their goals, both in everyday life and fitness, I'm certainly not here to eschew it.
All good! Appreciate any perspective, that's why we enjoy talking to a wide range of people and hear what they have to say, whether we agree or not. For example, on a personal note I've had some great success on following just the 180 formula for MAF, but have also felt best on race day when carb-loading the Feathers way. Depends on the individual and their own outlook on training and what works for them - R
Really enjoyed this listen - I've utilized the MAF method in past cycles, and have continued to experiment as I've gotten older, and my body's changed. A really interesting practice, and a way to get some runners to pause and think about how fast they run their easy runs.
Gotta listen to this one a couple times to get all the gems 🔥
Great interview! I enjoy music but not a musician, but i would say ibenjoyed the music discussion more than the MAF component.
Yep a couple of years ago I read his original book after injurying myself again using a more traditional plan. This lead me to lisening /watching Floris's Extramilest vlogs , joined up with the PBP program,14 months ago. So while now I have a personal coach now (who is brilliant very lucky to have him) , MAF / and the PB Program really has laid a solid foundation for me as an older/Master runner. When my coach sets all my easy runs they are done at MAF or below. The first 6 months you really need to have patiance. Really hitting a race hard still hurts (no magic bullet) , but running your B race at MAF + 10 can be a lot of fun , something kind of cool at being at Mile 12 or 22 and being able to smile and thank supporters while not being out of wind.. Legs will still bloody hurt but the engine has no problems 🙂
Awesome to hear! Floris is great, really one of the best guys out there and cares about his athletes
Fortuitous timing as I’m jogging around at MAF pace nursing some IT band soreness.
He’s a fascinating character. I hope none of my favorite songs are “unhealthy”.
I think you'll be fine lol
Has Dr. Maffetone ever considered modifying MAF calculation by introducing ambient temperature, or at least seasonal change into considerations?
I believe he does address that with the formula by adding/subtracting beats
I believe he states that it is automatic because HR will be affected by temperature changes. Training to pace alone doesn't capture the additional toll of extreme temps but HR does. So if you do a MAF run in adverse conditions your pace will have to slow down to remain under the MAF HR.
Your heart already beats faster in the heat. You just run your Zone 2 but you’ll be slower 🤷♂️. It‘s that easy.
Love Robbie’s interviews! MAF has a place in running for sure and grateful for Dr. Maffetone. We need to listen to what he says about AI music 😮can’t think of anything worse!
I can attest to this started last June using the method my easy day runs are about a minute to a minute and a half faster now
New to running at 67 after 2 years off. My pace with MAF seems sooooo slow at 113 bpm (180-67). Should I be patient over the next 3 months OR can I add 10 beats per minute to 4.5 mph?
Thanks Phil. You got me in world class shape in the 1980s - Neil Wood
You should be patient
Thanks Robbie. Good job
Entertaining for sure. Difficult at times to parse out Doc's research from his opinion. I do appreciate hearing from all sorts of people on this show though.
I will NEVER understand why 180 minus your age isn't any less random or more precise than 220 minus your age then figuring out zones from that. And besides some books and a degree, what ATHLETES has Maffetone coached to an elite level? (And Mark Allen in the mid 1980's is a sample size of 1.) A LOT of Maffetone followers sound like members of a cult looking for some rationalization/justification for running as slow as possible.
The 180 formula is a tweak of the 220 formula. It is a great improvement. The comparison needed is with rate of perceived exertion, which is individualised.
Robbe is GREAT at interviewing as he’s very down to earth and relatable, but I think if you guys have a guest who’s an expert in X, I’d prefer a podcast that relates to that topic. I love 80/20 running but I’m not subscribing to junk music is hurting my training and that carbs are the new nicotine. Overfat me with Kid Cudi and I promise you I’ll stay in Zone 2.
😂 we're in the pursuit of happiness as well... totally feel you but wanted to work in some of the music stuff since that's what he's into these days, whether we're totally on board with that or not. But always interesting to hear someone else's perspective, so we try to hear everyone out and come away with something we never thought of before!
Yeah. Dr. Maffetone got a bit off-topic there with his whole sugar rant but I am happy to say that Zone 2/3 running has been doing wonders for my aerobic base. Would be good to have the podcast not veer too much off-topic but that's just my two cents.
MAF works, I did it for 10 years during my peak racing years and it worked .
I will stop racing if they remove the "junk food" at the end!! ❤😂😂
The MAF Method book is free on his website. Curious how James Taylor came to be the testimonial on the first page of the book 😊 when I think of JT running isn't the first thing that comes to mind
Clearly knows about running and clearly knows about nutrition. Dump the junk food and eat more nutrient dense real foods. Who can argue with that?
Really good podcast, I used his Maf method a few times and I did see improvements. My wife and I took his advice on eating cleaner 3yrs ago and she kicked all her meds and I have run pain free for rhe most part since then and my running miles have almost doubled. I also have bursitis in my shoulder and it hasnt bothered me in years. Dude knows what he's talking about.
Very cool to hear! Thanks for listening/watching.
I almost feel like this episode should come with a disclaimer. If you watch this, you need to go watch the rebuttal episode of the Fuel For The Soul Bonus episode between 60 and 61 from August 15, 2023. While it is important to hear differnt ideas, you should also hear the scientifically backed facts, not anecdotal nutrition advice from a chiropractor.
Would love to hear Feathers response.
I think a lot of people would, may have to be a topic of discussion!
Yes please!!❤
Is this method the same as zone 2 training? Meaning training below lactate threshold while burning only fat for energy?
Pretty much yes.
Its indeed the same. The formula is just a simplified tool to keep people well under the correct threshold, preventing them to run to fast.
People tend to run the slow runs to fast.
Watching this as i eat a brownie 😋
Legend
yeah it's time for me to make some changes
very small incremental improvements punctuated by injury could be the name of fitness journey
it's mostly ego stopping me if i'm honest -- probably should just turn off strava and focus on myself. but it's hard because i feel like i already run pretty slowly, so going even slower just kind of takes the fun out of it at the moment.
Everything is better without Strava
@@Believeintherun woah -- 15 minute miles with multiple walk breaks on the first attempt.
this is going to be hard to stick with, but i'm tired of being hurt all the time. so i guess this is where i'm at, and i might as well embrace it.
Processed foods are the problem not whole natural plant foods
I just bought a couple boxes of gels. Listening to this podcast feels ironic 😅. But really, eating healthy is good but if I need the edge during a hard & long run (30km+) or race sugar is important.
Its actually not about sugar or calories perse but about keeping your blood sugar stable. That's my take anyway.
I use both in training, so use sugars sometimes but also do a lot fasted, also long distances (for me) without issues in training
Crushed 4 pop tarts while watching this
With all respect to Dr Phil I wish to push back about his general theory about carbohydrate consumption. The best marathon runners in earth mostly from East Africa have a diet consisting predominantly of Carbohydrates namely “Ugali“ which is made from maize. It’s eaten mostly with vegetables or meat. How do we explain their performance when it’s know secret that Carbs make up a large part of their diet. By the way I’m a big fan of the MAF method and it has worked for me. I tried it whilst on the keto diet. In my humble the keto diet is not sustainable long term…I’m sure others would argue differently. I have gone low carb , les than 100gm carbs per day and it works for me.
Hes correct with consumption of carbs during the run works well because of the glut4 transporter. The muscle oxidises the glucose intra run differently then at the breakfast table. Taking a gel each 4miles or 6km works well & certainly reduces the bonk risk around 19miles on race day. Also why Patrick Martin who runs 2:24 Marathon in his early 40s eats 12hrs pre race (dinner) but does better with no breakfast 1 1/2hrs out from race...due to the Insulin spike.
A large carb rich lunch and dinner the day before is still great for most runners. Rice & vegetables are great as they have potassium too.
Practising gel type that digests ok in the mth leading up to race is important so no bad surprises on race day. Having g.i distress and a ruined marathon paid event is Disappointing. 🎉
1:13:00 -- Don't kid yourself...Not that what is said along the music scene is not drug, drugs were there in most all R&R bands. Lots died in those days AND most die in their early 60s
The core tenets of MAF are solid, but a lot of his ancellary beliefs on things like nutrition are dated at best, or outright wrong.
Whole natural plant foods allow the body to excel.
Sugar by itself is not the problem
Wrong peasant
Just not a lyrics person as Mr. Maffetone seems to be .. Mountain with Mississippi Queen, Nazareth with Miss Misery ... Singers are just another instrument and who cares with their words might be saying .. We all can make up our own meaning of any songs we hear ..
Long term health is not found in fats
Ask Scott Jurek about his nutrition when he ran the Appalachian Trail 2,100 miles in 42 days. Ask the Australia couple who ran around their couple in 366 days over 14,000 miles only on raw plant foods
Sugar by itself is not addicting but coupled with fats and salt a whole new world of addiction opens up
If I hear 180 - your age (with minor adjustments) one more time I'm going to barf.
180 -your age (with minor adjustments)
It sounds crazy but it's a proven method and it works. I knocked 4 minutes off my Half PR in 3 months of doing it. Couldn't imagine where I would of been at had I did it for a whole year. We just worry to much about what others think of our runs when most don't care they just run. They don't all got to be fast, look at how some of the elites train
180-your age (with minor adjustments)
Prepare the barf bucket
@@Believeintherun Thanks a lot, Robbe!😜
Where did "Dr" phil maffetone get his PhD or is it MD? It's probably neither one.Where did he do scientific research?
I think he's a chiropractor.
The fat one eats is the fat one wears ask a cardiac surgeon
That may be true if combined with high carbs but definitely not when carbs are limited
Only when eating with carbs at the same time.
Eating fat alone separate from carbs is perfectly safe.
Wait!!!! Hold up! So at 33:26, he's literally saying you CANNOT FUEL WITH CARBS BEFORE OR DURING A RUN in order to utilize the MAF method. At first I thought he was simply saying to stop eating JUNK FOOD... it's making u fat. Ok fine. That's common sense. BUT then he goes to generalize ALL SIMPLE CARBOHYDRATES like a pre-workout/during-workout "sugary drink" as junk fuel. If you extrapolate this sentiment, he's also referring to gels, sports fuels like Maurten, and all easily absorbed simple carbs IN GENERAL! He literally says if you ingest carbs before or during a run, your body with switch from fat burning to burning glycogen and will, "TURN OFF your aerobic system". Later in the podcast he just flat out says ALL carbs = Junk Food. Wow! How are yall liking that zinger?? I bet Feathers would have A LOT OF OPINIONS about that little nugget. Bc it basically invalidates the entire raison d'etre of Fuel for the Sole.
You do realize different people can have different opinions and they can exist in the same universe... right?
@@Believeintherun That's a great statement that has NOTHING to do with my comments. But Robbie what I find funny is you and Dr. Maffetone were talking PAST one another during the whole carb discussion and didn't even realize it. You are vehemently anti-Keto. Maffetone is actually extremely PRO-low carb... if not outright anti-carb. He is literally referring to ALL CARBS as junkfood- not just candy bars and Mountain Dew. We're talking about normal FOOD. He even says he equates all carbs produced in the "modern world" as "junk food". When U were describing junk foods, you were referring to high sugar crap like kiddie cereal (i agree). But Maffetone actually thinks ALL "processed" carbs are bad... his definition of "processed" is basically what we call FOOD (bread, bagels, flour & grains, sugar/honey, corn, etc..) He goes on to make the outrageous, non-evidenced based claim that humans aren't evolved to process carbs! Let that sink in. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. So your statement that everyone is entitled to their opinion? Ok fine. Everyone is entitled to have HORRIBLE opinions. Agreed! But when someone actively spreads horrible misinformation publicly to influence others, EXPECT BLOWBACK. Dr. Maffetone actually chastised human aide organizations for providing sacks of grain to starving countries! LOL! HOW INSANE IS THAT FOLKS???!!!
@@EricS-uf9mv Personally, I would not refer to him as "Dr." in this context. His "doctorate" is in chiropractic medicine which, in itself, raises suspicion. He has almost no peer reviewed material on this subject matter and, while it doesn't strictly prohibit him from forming conclusions, lends itself to certain scrutiny.
I mean there are people in ketosis running ultras so I guess it's possible but he talks about carbs like they're the devil and negates everything sports dieticians like Featherstone try to teach us about the proper amount of carbs to reach our potential so ughhhhh...... I'm shaking my head 😆
@@timlofton6595 He's a chiropractor? Sadly I am not surprised. If you spend enough time in the health, nutrition, & wellness space you'll find it's DOMINATED by Chiropractors, Naturopaths, & Homeopaths (these are the ppl who claim the cure for an anthrax attack is simply mixing MORE anthrax with air or water then consuming it). But like you said, simply having a dubious bkgrnd don't preclude one from postulating correct theories. But like I'm NOT EVEN pushing back on his low HR training theory. I think there's enough empirical evidence to suggest his GENERAL protocol is efficacious! BUT that doesn't preclude the fact this guy spouts (IMO) pure misinformation on SO MANY other fronts - particularly nutrition and human biology. HELL!! His gross comments on India ALONE is enough to call this guy a quack. He claims 81% of Indians are clinically obese???!!!! 81 FREAKING PERCENT of INDIA IS obese??? In what world? India's rural population, which makes up the MAJORITY of the country, lacks access to most basic services. Something like 20% of pop. is forced to practice open defecation (shitting in the open). It's est. that less than 50% have access to clean, on-premises drinking water! These ppl don't have easy access to clean water, much less indoor plumbing and sewer systems! These ppl's ENTIRE annual outlook depends on the whims of Mother Nature unleashing the annual monsoon season on-time & in sufficient force (not too heavy/not too light). Otherwise entire REGIONS of the country go hungry! But this "doctor" believes 81% of Indians are gobbling Big Macs & Mountain Dew nonstop? Really? I'm sorry, but India is NOT Newark, or St. Louis, or Manchester where 255lbs slobs are the RULE; not the exception.
Clearly knows a lot about running, but unfortunate how incorrect he is on nutrition. I hope people don't buy in without actually reviewing the research.
I think your confusing what we can duel with vs absolute best performance. We can run 100 miles with no food but we have to stay very low intensity. Or we keep shoveling carbs to up our efforts.
@elliotendures Which part of nutrition is he wrong on?
@@JohnHarryShaun Most of it, really. There is no scientific benefit to keto and the demonizing of carbs is just ignorance and snake oil. If one PREFERS a high fat and lower carb diet, and it helps them adhere to a total caloric intake -- cool, man. Go for it. But identifying it as "better" isn't just an opinion. It's just wrong and to many people already buy into a lot of the dumb nutrition stuff out there.
You won't find a legit registered dietician talking poorly about carbs, sugar (as long as not in excess), seed oils or any of that stuff.
@@elliotenduresprocessed carbs i think.
Still nothing inherently wrong with those either.@@nadiamsahar3817