The Shape of Water: Falling In Love With Monsters (Feat. Lindsay Ellis) | READUS 101
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 27 ก.พ. 2018
- Lindsay Ellis -- formerly known as Nostalgia Chick -- lends me her expertise in regards to monsters as I discuss Guillermo Del Toro's latest movie "The Shape of Water," and why there are so many people of color and members of the LGBT+ community that find themselves smitten by monsters and monstrous creatures in monster movies and media in general.
Check out the video we did on Lindsay's channel!
/ chezapoctube
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So I've been anxiously reading the comments, and I just want to let you know that I just think y'all are fucking awesome.
Whether it's mentioning monsters or other characters that I didn't mention in this video but also developed an attachment to, or just sharing your stories about how monsters helped you explore your own sense of identity. None of you had to do that, and I'm extremely thankful and humble that you decided to share. You all rock!
And thank you for setting up some really nice discussions! Everyone's experience with this phenomenon is so different, but it's something usually born from isolation. So your video gives a great perspective on loving monsters that highlights aspects I hadn't considered before, and the comments help broaden that even further.
I found this video from Lindsay's channel and I thought this was a really great essay! I have a question, if I'm new to your channel, what videos would you suggest I start with?
Well done and well said excellent video. :)
Speaking as an asexual person, I like monster romance stories! I don't really understand physical attraction, so stories that center around personality and character development without constant interruptions of "AND THEY WERE SUPER HOT" are way more interesting to me. Also, monsters look cool and unique and are therefore far better than generically attractive people, obvs. Anyway I'm super excited to see The Shape of Water and should probably stop watching spoilers.
Agreed you should wait and watch the film, its worth it.
As an asexual person I really related to the show Pushing Daisies even before I'd figured out my sexuality. The two main characters are in a relationship where they can't touch, but this doesn't affect the fact that they love each other and doesn't lessen they're relationship.
LonerRavenclaw Same. I loved watching the ways they just enjoyed each other’s company. Still mad that the show got cancelled honestly.
Ace high five!
Well, I've definitely found what to watch tonight! (Yay Ace Squad!)
I have said it before and I wil say it again, not all relationships have to have a sexual end gain. Imagine living in a world were respect of the other person besides the physical aspects are main base for a relationship and how to grow for the better.
Came down to the comments to see if someone mentioned the ace perspective.
It only clicked within the last several months why seeing human porn or even seeing the basic human romances in movies has been so jarring to me, whereas seeing more creative (read: devious) takes on sex and relationships - in both visual art and movies - has felt more at home. Feeling so apart and so unlike those around me made such subjects uncomfortable to witness.
Pushing Daisies is such a good example. I find it almost disgusting watching the "emotional climax" where the guy gets the girl and they start tonguing each others' throats - so by contrast seeing this gentle, affectionate, but devoid of sexual touching relationship... it was a relief. It was liberating. I think Pushing Daisies is one of the early examples I have for discovering my own roots of Otherness. But in the early days I could never voice why I found the "romance" in that show so comforting compared to conventional media. I'm so happy to see it wasn't just me who appreciated it!!
I remember seeing Disney's Beauty and the Beast with my mother, and at the final transformation scene, she said, "Oh, he's handsome!" and I didn't say anything, but was really bothered by the thought that it wasn't the same beast anymore, and that it felt so unfair to both Belle and the Beast.
I always found him more handsome as the beast....I don't like his conventional beauty. But I will always love his insides
While I never found him attractive, I've always thought the Beast was more visually interesting as a monster than as a man.
Right? his transformation felt so unrecognizable, it’s like he transformed into a totally different character too
Which is good because otherwise it would be beastiality....
@@aaliyaheverett2601
How do you feel about the sex scene in the Japanese animated fantasy movie Wolf Children where the parents of the title kids being a wolfman and a human woman got it on? or any human male X nonhuman female (furry or alien) relationships like in Bojack Horseman and in Hattonslayden's artworks?
So as a trans-unawares child, I became fascinated with shapeshifters. People who can turn into other people like Tonks or Mystique, or into animals like Loki or selkies. I wrote stories that were essentially offbrand Animorphs in different historical settings, and with magic instead of aliens. And when people asked me if I'd rather have the power of flight or invisibility, I'd always choose invisibility - but not so that I could do crimes or stalk people, just so that I could exist free of being looked at wrong.
I guess when you're all wrong somehow and you can't figure it out, being able to become a bird or something sounds pretty cool. I mean, it still does? I'd put on that mythological feather cloak in a heartbeat.
O o f t... My childhood. I knew I was going to see myself reflected in some regard in this video but didn't think I'd find a mirror in the comments.
I’m queer, a cis lesbian and I understand exactly what you mean.
So I grew up a fat girl desperately trying to become thin. I was told by society that people don't love fat women. Fat men? Maybe... In some circumstances. But never fat women (unless we were objects to people with "weird fetishes" who are the only ones who would ever stoop to finding us attractive).
For me, monsters were the only ones who could ever potentially love me. They were the only ones that could make me feel small, dainty, and delicate and I craved that.
Later, I fought that need to feel delicate by arm wrestling any boy who would challenge me. Around this time, I desperately wanted to see more female monsters... In high school, I recognized my queerness.
Basically, I'm a fat queer woman who identifies with monsters both as a way to embrace my otherness, and to embrace my connection with humanity as a whole. I'm a monster, myself... And also a normal human who wants to be loved as I am.
LexieDi I actually find bigger women more attractive. It doesn't stem from a fetish (i.e. Watching you eat or some other fetish)
you just made me cry sis because THIS IS IT! This is why all my tv crushes were monsters... the epiphany, holy! I by no means want to take away from the conversation in the comments regarding how monsters are relatable to those in the LGBTQ+ community, I do find it interesting though how "otherness" can draw out the same attraction regardless of what form the "otherness" takes. I was never mainstream for a lot of reasons... I was always "thicker" than people wanted to see and I guess neurodiverse is the label that's been ascribed to me most recently (still a little salty that I wasn't given a politically correct term when I was a child that needed understanding) but regardless... thanks for your comment ❤
@@raxxie I think it can relate to any sort otherness. Doing a bit of self reflection I starting to realize that’s why I related so much to belle growing up is probably because of my ADHD, always feeling like an outsider with the kids and people I grew up with. I think there are so many different ways to feel other. I’m fat queer and nuerodivergent (I still feel very weird about that term too haha). Always felt like an outsider to everyone around me
……. Whelp. I hadn’t made that connection to my own internalized fat phobia and monster attraction. Damn. Very well said
"He doesn't know what I lack or how I am incomplete." I cried so hard in the theatre during that scene in The Shape of Water. It is not the exact same thing as being mute or having any other physical disability, but having mental health issues makes me feel broken and sometimes like I'm a lesser person. My husband is one of the only people who has always seen me for who I really am, so that part in the film hit me hard.
I've often had crushes on characters that were considered other or monsters. I really like Ron Perlman's Hellboy and I think Beast Boy and Cyborg from Teen Titans are cute as well. (Side note, I'm so glad Lindsey featured you in her video, because now I have a new TH-camr to watch.)
You can’t hit me with “kitty has to go” in the middle of this, i’m cryingnkow
SAME! Now, pass that Kleenex box
Great, now I'm crying like Aqua
I felt an incredibly strong bond with Megamind, personnally.
Big heads people should stick together
yessirrrrr
That scene where he dresses in the black mamba and snaps the suit on his ass 🤤
As a queer person who's had a weird thing for monsters before they even realized it was a projective power fantasy attraction, I relate and appreciate this video immensely. I think you really hit it on the head with the observation that there was an appeal not only to seeing ourselves in the monster, but also in seeing ourselves in the person with whom the monster is smitten. I feel like part of the reason it has that dual appeal comes back to that innate power fantasy aspect of it - monsters are generally depicted as intimidating, resilient, strong characters that seem nigh invulnerable when protecting the person/people they love. It's the kind of strength and fortitude that people would want to wield themselves, or would want of a lover to protect them, and depending on a person's personal experience, either - or even both - could be a subconscious selling point.
No matter how strong I feel on my good days, there is always something comforting about the idea of being the Human With Which the Monster is Smitten. When we as the overtly or accidentally outcast feel so unwanted and so different - having to constantly maintain emotional walls to keep ourselves afloat and having to be tough enough to handle purposeful or inadvertent attacks - the thought of being cradled and cherished and protected by something big and beefy and powerful is like a safety blanket.
Something of a borderline example, but... Haku's dragon form in Spirited Away. Like, hot damn.
ConvincingPeople Similarly for me, Howl's raven-form in Howl's Moving Castle was really cool. I wish he could've stayed like that for longer in the movie, but considering it was a magical corruption thing (and probably really time-consuming to animate) I can see why Howl was human for most of it :)
I KNOW, RIGHT?!
Right? When I was a kid I used to ship Haku and Chihiro hardcore. I didn’t understand why they couldn’t get together
...more humanized versions of no-face/kaonashi actually
big mood tho
I always thought that the monster crush phenomenon worked for a couple of reasons:
1) The focus on "inner beauty" rather than "physical attractiveness" means that a lot of emphasis is put on building the character rather than their appearance. I'd take a well-rounded monster over a flat piece of eye candy any day.
2) Monster don't need to adher to human beauty standards, and thus they override them. Countless times movies and other medias expect us (or out right tells us) to find a certain character attractive, yet I can't help but roll my eyes. Monsters aren't expected to be beautiful, and don't line up with the standard "grading" of attractiveness. We can either accept or reject a human's physical attractiveness immediately, but monsters are just so odd that there's no clear rules or obvious markers for what can be considered attractive to a human mind.
It's for these reasons that when I choose a character to romance in the Mass Effect trilogy, I always pick Garrus over Kaiden. Kaiden's appearance, while traditional attractive, I found so bland and unimpressive that I felt like was staring at a brick wall. Garrus' appearance is extremely alien, with interesting physical details and armour designs that always feels new every time I talk to him. And while Kaiden has some history and depth to his character, there is no way he can compare to Garrus. Garrus, the badass alien cop that doesn't play by the rules. It also helps that Garrus one of the few characters that stays loyal to the PC throughout the series no matter what happens.
As for why which monster "types" are considered more attractive than other monsters... That's another conversation for another time.
I spent WAY too much time on this already.
I think the longest running monster crush I've ever had was Medusa. Before I recognized that I liked girls, I just felt so SORRY for her and thought that Perseus killing her was SO not fair...annnnnd it seems like that sort of thing tends to bring up the crush feels in me. That's probably concerning...but seriously, more sympathetic Medusa portrayals, world. We need them.
Sorry but, do you happen to know the webcomic "Medusa and the blind priestess"? Because if not, it seems like exactly the thing you're looking for! It's on tapas.io and currently has only 5 pages, but imo it's worth checking out.
Lupe I. ...I super appreciate you for alerting me to this. THANK YOU.
My favorite sympathetic Medusa story is "Medusa's Tale" by Area51Fugitive on AO3, mainly because not only is she sympathetic but also Athena and Perseus (Athena's "curse" was actually her protecting Medusa from Poseidon and Perseus weeps for Medusa when he hears her tale).
I've always wanted to write a story about a blind man or woman falling in love with Medusa
@Gola245 considering Hercules kicks her ass afterwards in the movie (and she's a boss in at least one of the video games I've played) ... this is kind of sad actually.
I think a lot of the appeal is the idea of being with someone who isn’t acutely aware of your faults, and you are unaware of theirs. There’s appeal in someone who thinks you’re perfect because they’re unaware of the standards of beauty you grew up with. The Monster/Alien lover is perfect because you’re unaware of their specie’s standards of beauty. I know it sounds pretty selfish and weird, but that’s definitely the appeal
I think that even more than just being unaware of society's beauty standards it's nice to see someone ignoring them or just not agreeing to that concept of beauty. Like yes, most people wouldn't say you're beautiful. But you are.
Never really thought of it that way and it does makes sense. I don't know how much that would up to The Shape of Water's monster though. If you take away his fins and scales and claws and show a silhouette of his body, it's still pretty much a conventionally attractive human male build.
Dude's got one tight ass for a fishie boi.
@@sourpuss5951 I attribute that to the fact that it's still a hollywood movie, so the main characters have to be at least vaguely conventionally attractive. Or, it's Guillermo's idea of a monster romance for women: being a dude, maybe he doesn't have the idea that women don't all want the same "sexy" archetype! Heh!
I forgot what I was watching, but it was subverting the hot alien trope. There was an alien guy and a human girl that got together and it turned out that the alien guy was actually really ugly to his own species but super hot to human standards.
I also love Guardians of the Galaxy Vol II for Drax's take of Mantis: "You are *horrifying* to look at."
Werewolves have always enthralled me. it started in 6th grade or so...right around my sexual awakening time. Just the duality of both human empathy and ferocity, among other things, I felt fit me the best. Another character I really connected with was Stitch from Lilo and stitch. Mostly for just his utter loneliness when he discovered that He was lacking something once he stopped being a "monster" and tried being something else. And how...desperate he hoped that his "family" would find him. Still makes me cry.
Oh man time to overshare. I'm mixed black and white and pansexual and when I was about 5 my dad introduced me to Inuyasha who's half wolf demon half human and man did I fall in love with him. I watched the show so many times over. His experience as a kid having people judge him for being a half breed before he knew what those words even meant spoke to me a lot (I'm not claiming to have the same struggle as a fully black person disclaimer). The first woman he ever allowed himself to love ended up essentially killing him but he keeps trying to be with her because he doesn't believe anyone else would love him. It really spoke to me and helped me learn the lesson that love that's in spite of something about you isn't the love you want. You want love that accepts everything about you. Like your sexuality.
Yeahhh. And Howl from Howl's moving castle??? Haku from spirited away??? Marceline from adventure time???! I think I'm down with monsters.
Okay, that reading of Inuyasha is beautiful. Thank you.
Your experiences and how you relate it to the Inuyasha character is something I've heard before. Can't relate to the suffering that comes along with being mixed and mixed appearing as an obviously black appearing woman (so sorry you had to go through all of that) but I did enjoy Inuyasha, albeit for different reasons. I think it was Sesshōmaru's and Rin's relationship that touched me more because of my childhood background. I also prefer Sesshōmaru's humanoid, full monster form to Inuyasha's half monster form. I'm drawn towards him being so powerful and his deep love and protectiveness of Rin. Oh, and just to let you know...Inuyasha's half dog demon/yōkai, not half wolf demon/yōkai. Kōga was the wolf demon/yōkai. Sesshōmaru's also full dog demon/yōkai... Okay, this weebo's exiting stage left, now... :)
Ok, but please note that Kikyo was betrayed and fooled from the main villain, she loved inuyasha sincerely when she was alive AND NOT fooled. she is like the most interesting and tragic character in inuyasha (also maybe in manga history) and gets every time demonized and misinterpreted it's such a shame.
Yep. Big crush on InuYasha here.
I hope that, now that the Shape of Water has put the thought of monster/human romance out into the mainstream a bit more, we start to see some such romances that feature a female monster. The Bride of Frankenstein was always one of my favorite monsters, and sadly she’s still one of the very few out there. I’d love to see a romance that allows a woman with monstrous qualities and rough edges be seen and loved for exactly what she is. Great video! I’m new to your channel, and I’ll definitely be sticking around!
I wish I could give this comment 10 thumbs up. I totally agree with the "monstrous" looking woman narrative. It would be nice to see a story where a unconventional woman is loved for the person she is, rather than what she looks like. But, there still seems to be a lot of resistance to such an idea, nicely summed up in that one scene from "The Swan Princess":
Prince Derek: You're beautiful.
Odette: Thank you....what else?
Derek: "What else"...what else is there?
+E.A. Cackowski
+Stephanie Wozny
But there is lately since 2010 when Hatton Slayden is an awesome artist in fantasy/science fiction who's works can be seen on deviantart, weasley and other sites who draws amazing realistic artworks of sci-fi/fantasy worlds, creatures, ships, armour and even humans co-existing with furries, xenos, mutants and cyborgs who don't look human. And in some of his expressive beautiful artworks he draws also human males having romantic affairs with female furries, female xenos, female cyborgs who look like movie transformers and female mutants in terms of overcoming racial differences as humans aren't the only intelligent race of beings there is in the universe in stories yet there is life out there in the life who are intelligent like we are.
They are so influential lately since 2012 as filmmakers, artists, animators, video game makers etc. are taking a look at them and think twice on double standards even the old double standard of "only human women can be with nonhuman looking nonhumans" even getting rid of the double standards which some of Hatton's artwork is a protest against double standards as now since 2013 lately in mainstream outside internet artworks, internet stories/fanfiction we now have human male X female furry/xeno/cyborg/mutant relationships like Regular Show's Margaret's parents, Skyrim has you can have a human male love an Argonian female, Voltron Defender has a truly looking xeno girl and a human male in love, Bojack Horseman's Charolette and Kyle, Wacraft the movie where an orc woman who don't look human has an affair with a human man as the man loves her for who she is and not what she is as they got married and produced a hybrid offspring. In that movie there was an half-ogre/half-human woman with a human male.
Hmmm, I'll have to check that out. Thanks for the suggestion!
@@stephaniewozny3852 Disney in two of their series, Aladdin and The Emperor's New Groove have episodes in which the main girls, Jasmin and Malina transforms into beasts, one into a snake like creature and the other into a bird like one, the lesson ends with the boys telling them they love them as they are, and so they chose to transform themselves into creatures to make them feel better.
Soooooooooo, considering that Disney did this it is possible a movie with the same argument!
@@Cloverfr
Why themselves into creature like in James Cameron's Avatar? they should remain human and accept their nonhuman female lovers for what they are.
I've had a giant crush on Hellboy since forever, especially because I liked how much of a secret mushball he was. And his sweet tooth.
Kat Fischer same....this big guy with this huge arm who loves kittens.........I mean....
It's funny, out of all the monsters out there, I'm really only attracted to shapeless elder gods from beyond the stars. Unknowable eldritch horrors who creep from the dark, a mass of eyes and feelers and whom would crawl into my bed and cuddle me with infinite tentacles.
Give me some source for these. Ur comment just made me realise a new world
Ah, I see you're an entity of culture as well
I myself prefer the slender sexy monsters that hide under your bed, but now you're making me want to cuddle a tentacle monster.
Sounds like something from H.P. Lovecraft. Pretty wicked if you asked me.
I'm starting to wonder if the types of monsters we feel attracted to say something about us... like those endlessly changing horrors in lovecraftian stories could be depicting an insatiable curiosity for example. Maybe this strong wish for stimulation out of apathy or lack of relatable feelings towards other human beings was born out of a forced alienation so strong that plain humanoids don't cut it.
We got used to media/people "othering" different people for so long that we become unable to let go of this imposed mask of monsterhood; in which the only ways media tells us to see ourselves are by brutalizing or being brutalized by others.
But then there's also the lack of representation, recognition and validation of our pain/existence in "otherness"... which can leads us to look for something that is as far from real as possible as "we are not real/we do not exist to most of the population in any speakable way".
I don't know if this applies to anyone here too... but I think unacknowledged pain may be the most horrific of monsters since you keep it in the dark.
I am so glad I found this channel through Lindsey! I loved Beast when I was a kid, and The Creature once I was a bit older. Beyond that, when I was even older I realized that part of that attraction stemmed from the fact that I wasn’t the “norm”, and that I wasn’t solely attracted to the “norm” myself, and that went a long way towards me coming to terms w/ and accept my pansexuality. In a world where people don’t trust bisexuals(/pan)and the confidence in their sexuality, i.e. you end up w/ a man, “you were straight all along”, you end up w/ a woman, “welp, you’re gay”, and that’s not even covering the fetishization by straight men, and the distrust of gay women, etc ... anyway! Again, I’m so happy I found this channel!
Erasure - whether it's bi or pan - is real and does a number on individuals, and I went through a lot of the same things you mentioned when it came to me first coming out and worrying about being accepted by a demographic larger than my friends and (some of) my family. As a bi man, I want to do better to put the problem out into the open so that people can realize that it IS damaging so that it can stop.
Also, I'm glad to have you here! ^_^
Hell yeah!! Luckily, the people I'm around generally recognize pan as real, or at least they dare not tell me that I can't be.. hmm... maybe they're just scared of me.. lol I wouldn't let anyone tell me that my sexual preferences are wrong anyway. Of course, by the time I was old enough to be sexual, I had been bullied in the previous years that my skin got super thick. By the time I was like 12, only a select few peoples' opinions mattered to me.
None of this is to say that erasure is ok.. because it isn't. Just wanted to share my personal experience on the subject of being pan
@@FaithOriginalisme Too real!!
I'm personally pan/ace fem. So the fact that I'm dating a man makes my fellow LGBTQ folk side eye whether or not I belong. It's a bizarre place to be when you don't feel like you belong with the heterosexual folk OR the LGBTQ family.
Late to the game on this, but for me, it was always robots, cyborgs, golems, and other artificially created/adapted life. Part of it is that I am actually a real-life cyborg (titanium prosthetic stapes bone!), but another part is that I find it most relatable as a queer, trans, disabled person.
The prosthetic stapes bone doesn't function. The first surgery I underwent willingly, but... well... malpractice happened. I got very sick. I lost all my hearing in that ear. And when it became clear that I wasn't getting better, my family put me through another surgery, which I didn't want. I was almost eighteen, but I did not get a choice. And my hearing didn't come back. It never will.
As an adult, I realized that I underwent an unnecessary medical trauma, one that had some pretty awful complications afterward, one that was painful and degrading and debilitating... all because my parents couldn't bear the thought of having a hard of hearing child. Even though I don't mind my hearing loss at all now, and my impairment in the modern world is pretty minimal. Had I just been left alone, things would've turned out the same way, only much slower, with far less vomiting, bleeding, crying, and pain.
Compare this to the procedures I have willingly undergone as a trans person, which also sometimes were painful and degrading, but which I don't regret having. People see my transition as butchery, rather than my failed ear surgeries, but it was transitioning that made me feel better. Because it was something I chose willingly to be me, rather than something forced on me to make me "normal." The cyborg narrative is one of adaptation, of trauma--hardly anyone becomes a cyborg through pleasant, desired means. It can also be one of self-determination. That is something I relate to.
Robots, borgs, and golems often also have a castration or genderless aspect to them, this sense that they aren't REALLY their gender because they aren't "real." Obviously this is very relatable on a trans level (especially since I do not pass), but there's also a much deeper psychological aspect I experience as a disabled person. One of the themes of the abuse I experienced from my family was that I wasn't their "real" child. I had stolen, possibly murdered that child, and I was to be punished for it. I was a cheap sham, a fake person, one that shouldn't exist. So robots fighting to be seen as people in their own right, trying to find their way in the world? That's my jam!
My entire adult life has been fighting for the right to be me, to be a person, in all my broken cyborg glory. Plus it's way, WAY easier to find stories about cyborgs and robots than trans queer disabled people.
Goliath from the animated show Gargoyles always compelled me. His romance with Elisa Maxa is one of the greatest "beauty and the beast" stories I've ever seen and I was always attracted to his intelligence, strength, and wisdom.
I too was a Goliath x Elisa shipper, so I feel you
You are so right. Great show, great romance. Had such a huge crush on Goliath. I wish they would reboot the show. But then again, if they reboot it, they probably will make it "gritty" or "edgy".
Me too! Gods, I haven't thought about his hotness in AGES!
They even dress ass the Beauty and the Beast in a Halloween episode
Also there's the sexy voice
I've always identified with and been attracted to shape-shifters, beings who's forms are not locked into just one identity but can choose to alter their outward appearance to match their inner state. I myself have always identified as a primarily hetro-male but one who was never comfortable in his own skin and found the idea of exploring an outward otherness a great and powerful tool to understand my own place in this world.
I would say Iron Bull from Dragon Age but does that really count when the game developers write, animate and direct a storyline full of romance/sex scenes for you to play through? (THEY WANTED ME TO KISS HIM DAMMIT)
"yes you have choices but we as a studio really vote for Iron Bull so make the RIGHT choice"
Well, to be honest, if there hadn't been the option to kiss him, I would've been terribly upset xD
I'm pansexual, autistic, grew up in rural Montana... I married the girl I dated in highschool and her folks still haven't forgiven me. So, yeah, monster movies. I actually have a hard time watching them - I don't like watching someone getting humiliated. Even movies about "lol look at how weird this guy is" like Napoleon Dynamite I can't stand. I always identify too closely with the person being hurt, and I can't bear to watch it.
I know I'm really late in replying, but I have to say I agree. Sometimes it's downright painful to watch, especially if it hits too close to home.
Hmm I feel like a lot of this only really applies if the monster is either explicitly or obviously coded as male. The relationship between female monsters and the Other functions a lot differently in media and society. There's a nasty tradition, going back to the early days of colonialism and traditions of anti-semitisim of overly sexualizing women of color and portraying them as wild sex demons while putting white women on pedestals as beacons of purity. The monster woman is almost always a super sexy version of the maiden protagonist/main love interest or an outright old hag. We objectify the sexy woman, make her monstrous, then watch her be destroyed, all because she is "other". It's not taboo to sexualize a monster woman like it is with the man-monster, it's the status quo.
It doesn't help that monster men are usually written and designed as monsters first, whereas monster women are usually written and (almost) always designed as women first...which, in turn, comes from the subconscious assumption that any character without an explicit reason to be female should be male.
And let's not forget the contribution of active male characters and passive female ones. Monsters who do things "need" to be male, even more than default. Female monsters usually don't do things so much as have things done to them. There are exceptions, traditionally female roles that aren't completely passive; these are your hags and succubi.
@@timothymclean
Check out Hattonslayden's artworks who is getting rid of sexist double standards that "only human women can be with nonhuman males" as he does the gender reverse and wants to get rid of double standards
Nina Balton This! ☝️
There's also the kind of gross aspect that occasionally replaces the inhuman-sex-demon-dynamic: the infant.
There's like a... weird version of the daddy dynamic where it's almost like a captor and a captive, where the captive is groomed to cherish its captor, or where the captor becomes possessive of the captive. It's uncomfortable and jarring when compared to the sort of love and friendship one sees in the male-coded monsters. The male-coded creatures are seen as wounded beings deserving of love, but the female-coded creatures are sexualized children who only seem to have value as pure, unspoiled possessions. But maybe I'm just not watching the right monster movies!!
The only monster oriented examples I can think of are NSFW manga I've come across on the internet. An example sans monster aspects is the Fifth Element type situation (this is discussed wonderfully in "Born Sexy Yesterday").
I agree with Lindsay. Starscream all the way.
And Abe Sapien from the Hellboy movies.
@@JazzStation95 It's also the same actor under all that blue skin!
Aw fuck yeah. Hellboy himself, too.
Was brought here by Lindsay essay and I'm grateful I was, both were spetacular, really good videos! So many talented and thoughtful film critics on TH-cam and I keep discovering more.
For a long time I was absolutely smitten with the other Del Toro fish man, Abe Sapien. He's gorgeous and graceful but he's also super intelligent and kind-hearted; what an absolute dreamboat. His love-story arc in Hellboy 2 was amazing for me because he was so awkward yet genuine about his feelings. The films frame the main characters as being so much more than the freaks that everyone sees them as so I tend to forget that Abe isn't human.
oh yes, he's a total dreamboat
I've never really related to a fictional character until I saw Elsa in Frozen her struggle with hiding her ice powers and detachment from the world and her sister reminded me with my struggle with social anxiety and struggling to "conceal don't feel" it and I've never personally felt attracted to a monster but I do at times fall for the anti-hero or heros with flaws instead of the flawless hero because they seem more relatable to me
Erik from the Phantom of the Opera novel.
Oh man so growing up I was like in a super awkward place when it came to like. Everything about me. A lot of my interests/how I talked was often considered 'too white' and obviously among white/nonblack folks I had like. No real place. Hell, even among my actual interests I didn't fit in. I was too girly for nerds. Too brown to be goth. And to top it all off, I was going through gender and sexuality issues. Hell, even then I never quite fit in. (Who could've guessed being a feminine trans guy wasn't common. Shocker.) Nothing was clear cut. I was too much while simultaneously being not enough. To someone I was always existing 'wrong'. Thankfully, I had a creative outlet in the form of art and writing. I grew to love and connect with all sorts of monsters but ones I most strongly lean towards are creatures in between monster and man, or just barely human. Like vampires ( there was a bad phase w/ that), witches, ghosts, aliens (a big one) and zombies most notably. I relate a lot to them as someone who's constantly feeling in between spaces. Some of these creatures also are targeted for things they never asked for and can't control. Whether it was because of someone else, via a bite or a curse (or IRL: having trauma and acting oddly because of it) or something you were born with (gender, race, etc). It also really shows a lot in the stories I'm working on. Where monsters are mostly the heroes/focus. Sorry this got long and sappy! As a queer, black, monster lover myself, this really touched me. I'm glad I found your channel! Also for monster crushes there's like a lot, but I was like super into zim??? like invader zim??? It was quite the time.
I really enjoyed this beautiful comment. Had a crush on Invader Zim, too.
gothicjinx101 as Camille stated, your comment is beautiful and well stated, thank you for being you.
I felt a strong spiritual connection towards this comment and want to give you the biggest hug I can muster from a computer. lol.
That "Too brown to be Goth" thing really hurt an offal lot of people. I'm a Rivethead, but I still saw it a lot at the time. (Roughly the 90s)
One thing that intrigues me is also how this is becoming a staple of roleplaying games among my friends and I. For example, in DnD pretty much every edition since tieflings were introduced (basically: people with demonic traits like horns because somewhere along the family line someone hooked up with a demon) the system goes out of its way to establish that people find them unsettling, offering justifications like a disturbing demonic aura. But consistently what we actually do with tieflings is sympathize with them, protect our precious demon babies...and ship them. The video game Baldur's Gate reportedly had a romance that got cut for its teifling party member and we just modded a fan-made romance in. In our tabletop and online written RP, my friends and I always gravitate toward accidentally repeating arcs in which tieflings overcome stigma and get just...neck-deep in adorable ships. So not only are we watching it play out on movie and television screens, but we are beginning to actually act this out ourselves.
For me one name and one name only comes to mind when I think of my "Monster Crush." The funny thing about her is she used to scare the hell out of me. Like, close my eyes and scream when I saw her, scare me. Yet as time passed and I grew up I found it harder and harder to look away from her. Which, if she was indeed real, would have meant a death sentence for me.
Medusa.
In whatever form or incarnation she takes I find something strangely compelling about her. Even the Harryhausen version where she is probably depicted at her most monstrous carries a kind of tragic beauty to her. It hints at a life destroyed, twisted by no real fault of her own and left to suffer alone and unwanted, unable to connect with or even be around others lest her very gaze cause them harm.
I guess I always kind of empathized with that and its what drew me to her.
Oh lordy, the monster guys i've had it for. Let me count the ways: Goliath and Lexington from Gargoyles, Garrus Vakarian from Mass Effect, I'm going to count Hancock from Fallout 4 in this since Ghouls in the Fallout franchise are essentially radio active zombies. Hancock in particular does it because he has this back and forth of 'i'm the sexy king of the zombies', but when the player character shows serious affection for him he shuts down and asks 'why would you ever fall for a ghoul?', and i feel for him so much. For the most part he's a very flawed person. He's an addict, an anarchist, and has a tendency towards violence, although not towards the player. At the same time he's aware that ghouls are second-hand citizens in the commonwealth (and in the wasteland as a whole according to a few of the other games) so he's suspicious of the main character, whom is from a time 'before the bombs' as to why they would like him.
Are you me? I had the exact same fictional crushes ( and reasoning behind them ;)
I was more into Brooklyn myself. I ship Lexington and Staghart so badly though.
What do you think of Skips and Mona on Regular Show, Mr Peanutbutter and Diane on Bojack Horseman, Wolf Children's Hana and her wolf-man husband etc.?
Garrus or Tali are the only acceptable love interests from Mass Effect. Maybe Liara
Hancock fucking makes my heart race, his confidence in public and his flaws mixed with a voice that could melt butter was the death of me.
I also am incredibly attracted to Garrus and Liara (I’m bisexual) for the very same reasons. These characters are intelligent, flawed yet confident people in their own rights despite being abnormal.
This was absolutely fantastic, well done La'Ron and Lindsay!
My main monster crush is Hellboy 💕
Found this via Lindsay's Monster Boyfriend essay and so glad I clicked through :) Your empathy and insight on this topic are really wonderful - a queer nonbinary autistic person myself, I've done my fair share of loving monsters and feeling more akin to them than the 'normal' people set against them and it's wonderful to hear someone else speak to that experience so eloquently.
I'm looking forward to working my way through the back catalog of videos and I look forward to seeing more of your work in future x
Ahhh like minded monster lovers! I'm so happy you all exist 😂
My first 'monster' was Edward Scissorhands. Not exactly monsterous but he was my introduction to 'outcast' characters and I never looked back. Another character close to my heart is Quasimodo, in every adaption. I've been sorta spoiled for normal people now...
Happy for your existence too
I had the hugest crush on Xibalba from The Book of Life
Oooh and Nightcrawler from the second X-men movie
So sort of a weird one, but I had less of a specific monster that got to me like this as much as I had a type. It started with Wolf Man and the idea of a normal person becoming a monster as a curse. Then I started reading stories about Werewolves with the evil werewolves would say stuff like, "The human form is just a mask. The first time I changed, I knew that the beast was who I always was deep down!" And in the stories that would be taken as a sort of, "Oh you monster! You have always been evil at your core!" But for me... It was like deep calling to deep.
It took a long time to finally get from point A. I am fascinated with stories about transformations and 'true selves' coming out from physical changes to point B. Coming to terms with being a trans woman, but that long process was aided massively by the way monster stories about 'changelings' established the concept of that being a thing that could happen to someone, along with the idea that it was possible to be born in the wrong body.
Admittedly the messages tended to come from villains and evil monsters, but... Well after the amount of emotional, physical and... Other forms of abuse I have lived thru, I am more then happy to take valuable life lessons about self acceptance from villain monologues! I would much rather have more stories like The Shape of Water lending a kinder, more understanding voice to this sort of metaphor, but I am happy to take what I and others can from older, less charitable films.
...
And on a side note... Fuck you Guillermo! I could have spent my whole life not knowing that I had a thing for fish people, but you just HAD to go and ruin that by making a sexy, sexy fish man in your adorable romance film... I hope your happy. Cus I am.
Duhad Very interesting perspective. Have you ever played Bloodborne? In that game humans transform into beasts because they ingest the blood of other creatures. It is heavily implied that humans are beasts deep inside though and that they don‘t really get „transformed“ into beasts, but basically revert to their original, primal form. Really interesting stuff
No, don't own a PS3 or 4, but I have played the Dark Souls games that have a similar thing with how losing all of your souls and despairing turns you into a hollow, but with it strongly implied that BEING a hollow is actually what every one really is deep down and souls basically just let them change that inevitable truth fact for a time. I like the BB concept better though, that feels allot closer to how I view transformation stories and I will definitely have to check that out! Thank you!
There's also the aspects with with our society treats women as monsters. Beautiful ones, but nonetheless sexism, and chauvenism basically paints women, and feminism as the other. Something to be feared, and in classic examples (The Sirens, Cerce, Medusa, and that's Just Greece!) something to fight/kill. Literal monsters.
Ok, so it's not exactly what you asked but I have to get this off my chest. A handful of years ago, Newsweek did this *god awful* article about the publication of Fifty Shades of Grey, on the wrong-on-every-level thesis of "why are women, who are now so ascendant and powerful in society, suddenly so attracted to the idea of surrendering control to a powerful man?"
I was reading this in my dentist's waiting room. I choked out loud.
To me the totally-not-suddenly attraction to being overpowered and stalked and obsessed-about and brutally tested isn't about being attracted to the suffering, it's about being a person who *is suffering*, who is stalked, who is obsessed about, who is brutally tested and the *fantasy of that being a sign that you are loved deeply by someone who notices and understands* rather than your normal life where all that same stuff is a sign that society rejects you, objectifies you, and can't wait to throw your dead body in a dumpster. Longing to be the object of attraction for a "monster" is a longing to feel like the monster is stalking you in order to understand you and care for you rather than...all the other crap that stalkers are generally thinking of. We are so helpless, and not-going-through the gauntlet of pain and humiliation isn't an option for any woman in this society, so we transform it into something validating.
So anyway, yeah, mainstream-ish BDSM-flavored stuff is totally monster-movie stuff. And most of their handling of it can die in a fire. Argh.
Personally I love big furry beast-y monsters.
This, and Lindsey's video essay, have been such a delight to watch. I'm so digging the monster talk that's been going around lately.
As for monsters I like, I find some of them are more outward monsters (Auroth from Dota 2 is literally an ice dragon; Taokaka from Blazblue is a terrifying cat girl whose face you never fully see; uhh...every Bloodbourne boss is pretty....whoo) but more recently I've found an attraction to characters that are deemed "monsterous" because of circumstances being set against them from the outset. Shiro from Deadman Wonderland for example is portrayed as someone who is deeply conflicted about what she is supposed to be in a world that's never given her really any choice and pretty much destroys anyone trying to get close.
Ramlethal from Guilty Gear has been a huge favorite of mine for awhile because she goes through a Beauty & the Beast transformation a la Frozen, where sisterly compassion ends up becoming an important force for compelling good. And her sister is the one who insists that the goodness has always existed in her, which is what prevented a world that was very scared of Ram from executing her on sight. It's a weirdly gentle character arc for a fighting game, but Guilty Gear continues to surprise me tbh. (BTW for anyone owning Revelator 1+2, watching the story mode give you free game dollars, so it's definitely worth watching otherwise.)
Anywho, thanks for giving me a platform to gush about my strange fighting game crushes and I'll be looking forward to your other videos for sure!
My dude, I'm so glad I found you through Lindsay! Beauty and the Beast's been a longtime favorite movie of mine, most especially because of the Beast (whose transformation at the end always felt weird and off to me, especially because of how unsettling Prince Adam's face seemed after coming to empathize with his other one the whole film long). A friend of mine had a beastly character for whom she wrote extensively on his monstrousness and how it connected with his essence as a person; I was, of course, smitten.
MultiversePatroller1 I agreed so much with the Beast's transformation being off in the movie. It's supposed to be this big moment of rejoice, but it does just clash. Even Bell has to squint at him for a minute
AlexDoesThings Definitely! It's so . . . unnecessary from a character and narrative standpoint.
Kat The Nerdfighter Mixed message, imo. To be fair, though, that's a symptom of the source material, too.
As someone who has a role tumblr for monster lovin'....... this video is amazing. For me, some of the earliest and long-lasting monster crushes were Hexxus from Ferngully (in his final form: a giant ooze, fire and a skeletal body) and Chernabog from Fantasia. Says a lot that both are giants......
Great video!!!
He's not necessarily a "monster" but I think my first interest was probably nightcrawler from the x Men.
Usually I thought "monster love" fiction was usually niche....kinda, since beauty and the beast came out before I was born, I can't say if there was a craze but seeing theres always trashy romance covers with monstrous men in my library ,it's probably now just getting mainstream attention?🤔idk
nyxb I only really know Nightcrawler from X-Men 2 and the teen X-Men animated show he was my jam too.
If your favorite x-men character was/is nightcrawler, you'll probably grow up to be a monster lover ha
I have heard SO many women say that...Kurt has the roguish charm with just enough woobie to make it spicy.
Night crawler was mine too. I think part of why I had a crush was watching him in the comics start off being rejected as a monster by most people, but then being able to evolve to own who and what he was, and therefore have more and more people accept him too.
As a Cis white woman, I obviously have a lot of privilege, but I have always been a nerdy woman, and that lead to a lot of my own ostracizing. It took me a long time to own who and what I am. And I loved him and found him very attractive for helping show me the way.
(I also think the version in XMen evolution was one of my favorites, so adorkable and sweet)
wow, well that's interesting...i did forget about beast!! and yeah god loves,man kills is on my reading list, thanks for the recs!!!
As a lesbian with Autistic Spectrum Disorder, I've always had a fascination with werewolves. I grew up during the whole Twilight/Vampiric romance thing, and something about werewolves drew me to them more than Vampires ever did. Unlike vampires which were often depicted as classy and charming socialites, approaching aristocrats, the uncouth and beastly werewolves seemed a little more relatable. Where vampires ruled over their beastly nature, controlling it, werewolves often revelled in it, enjoying nature and not caring for typical social conventions. For someone who couldn't understand, and still has trouble understanding, social cues and manners, werewolves cut an attractive figure. They were and are relatable to me in a way very few other monsters are. There's also something to be said about animals being more relatable to ASD people in general, showing unconditional love in very predicable ways without expectations that we will do as society dictates. My cat doesn't give a shit if I don't behave 'properly', and extending that to werewolves wasn't a huge leap.
Monsters speak to those of us whose lived experiences are The Other (and boy is that ever the many-layered story of my life), but also to the abused-because a monster is misshapen and hated and terrible and wrong, but they are also POWERFUL; a monster strikes fear into the hearts of those who would harm it. The Beast became my hero when he made Gaston quail.
In answer to your last question...dragons, werewolves, and however the hell you'd classify Venom.
Really fantastic work! Emotionally honest and insightful in personal yet highly researched ways. Also, a topic that includes sexuality in fiction, Beauty and the Beast, classic monsters, King Kong, Doug, one of my favorite episodes of Supernatural, AND Lindsay Ellis???
You're speaking my exact language.
oh big love to Lindsay for directing me to you! I'm flat out loving your essays. Finally a voice that sounds a lot more like mine out there makes me really excited and happy.
I'm glad to know that I wasn't not the only one who had monster crushes while growing up! Thank you for the wonderful video!!
I loved this video! I had the hots for Garrus in Mass Effect but also... who didn't?
Sadly they didn't let me date Wrex or Grunt.
IQSim Ugh, finally. Someone who knows my pain. I settle for Garrus though, because he's precious.
IQSim
Wrex might be a bit busy, either repopulating his homeworld and spreading his "not too much of a dick" genes or fertilizing the sand on some alien world with his corpse, depending on Shepherd's choices ofc.
Read my mind
fatalfeline I literally was just going to mention Garrus. He is the love of my life, alongside Thane and Tali.
I'm with you on Beast. He was one of my first. Also Goliath from Gargoyles. Also Optimums Prime. Not sure if they count but Warf and Data were also crushes of mine.
omg Data
Optimus is our king.
Venom... what that tongue do lmao
I men, is there anyone who didn't had a crush on Beast? I ever found weird as a kid that I find him way more attractive as Beast that as Adam. I liked other monsters but a part of me just never though of them as such. I was kind of oddly attracted towards Dragons as a kid (still kind of am). I was also never that much of a vampire lover, but always had a thing for werewolves. And non humanoid aliens have always been a thing I love (not talking especifically about tentacle monsters, tho, yeah, tentacle monsters are one of my most searched for tags when on ao3)
I like non-humanoid aliens on principal, just because they feel, well, alien. It's funny how much of our inspiration for aliens comes from marine life, like tentacles. But then I suppose space and the ocean have some similarities, vast, hostile to us but so beautiful... sorry I got sidetracked.
@@user-C-Zira xenomorphs tho
Ironically, being around so many monster-loving people and not connecting to these stories, has made me feel like an outsider. I have the identity components to relate to monsterhood, but instead, I connect to many privileged characters in media; the characters who's issues are framed as trivial. Growing up, I was never taken seriously, at school I was treated like the bimbo, and at home I had my tragic backstory told back to me as a joke, so I believed it. I think all that makes me connect to the characters that the narrative tells us to laugh at. Which is never the monster, his/her problems are real and tragic, and the narrative validates that. Whereas the privileged are never put in that light, which can be fair, but it just mirrors my experience and makes me want to, as you said, reach out to them.
I have been thinking about monster romance a lot lately. As an asexual, the idea of finding someone to fall into a mutual loving relationship with who could not reproduce with my species has always been appealing. It takes sex out of the equation and let's me explore such a relationship when I have so much trouble wrapping my head around the idea with actual humans because I've been conditioned to believe that sex is an integral part of romantic relationships, even though that's not what I want.
I wrote a romance story between a knight and dragon that I really love with this premise. I'm usually more into the fluffy monster types though because the cuddling would be out of this world.
Side thought: I realized the other day that vampires are an asexual's dating horror story. A charming, attractive person shows genuine interest in the human, gets them trusting and alone, then reveals a physical desire that the human does not share or have a desire to participate in. The vampire has revealed this animalistic side that the human can't fully understand and giving the wrong signals by accident and/or refusing may have consequences they can't predict because of it. Even the most innocent seeming of people could turn out to be one. Spooky
Is the dragoness anthro?
Johnlindsey289 No, that's the whole point. The dragon is monstrous beast of legend with whom the knight still manages to have a healthy, unorthodox romantic relationship.
Please tell me the name of your fic if it is available online! I would love to read it, a monster love story in which the monster does not change into a prince at the end is my jam
@@alexdoesthings2875 Seconded, where can I read this story of a knight and a dragon?
I really like that when Lindsay calls you, TH-cam is still on. I don't know what settings those are, but when people call me they always interrupt the video I'm watching
I wish I could figure out exactly why my attraction to monstrous (or at least not 100% human) characters began. I think it started with Beast Boy (and Raven, as I realized in later years after embracing my queerness), but ever since it's become a kind of disturbing "shadow" of my "normal" sexuality and sense of attraction. I think my attraction to zombies in middle school _may_ have been a subconscious expression of me feeling attracted to my friend who had enforced what was then my general liking of zombies, because around that time I had a rough time wrestling the idea that I liked girls and guys, a concept that I actually hadn't really been exposed to until I met her. I'm 99% sure my fling for Slenderman stemmed from my emerging daddy issues, as I always thought of him as a father figure (for some strange reason or another). More recently, demons and fallen angels that actually look like demons and not just hot guys with horns and tails have been intriguing.
At some point in my past, I think this all originated from the realization that I was (and still am hahaa) fat and conventionally unattractive, in addition to the sense of edginess I embraced at being a tomboy and how I thought I was better than other girls for disliking traditionally feminine things. As I got older and hung out with my aforementioned friend (who turned out to be really toxic lmao, like she'd encourage me to only hang out with people in our "clique" [which barely existed in a school with like 15 kids per class] because "preps" didn't like us), I think the feeling of isolation and rejection from others started to become a huge reason why monsters were and still are attractive to me. Monsters are shunned and tend to be alone, whether due to hiding or being shunned; I understand what that feels like. I think now, with my isolation being a lot worse than it was in high school _and_ with my dad villainizing me for not being his perfect little girl (or boy, I still wonder if he tried to bring me up as the son he always wanted, which would explain my gender identity issues too lol), the symbolic attraction is relevant once again.
I mean, that doesn't really help me understand why I find quite a few monstrous characters _physically_ attractive despite (because of?) typically "strange" looks. Some examples: skeletons, literal facelessness, masked entities (outside of the "it's a stranger" concept, because I can rule that out for several characters I've found attractive; examples are the Yautja/Predators and Pyramid Head), living corpses, ghosts (the whispy kind like Johann Krauss, not like Patrick Swayze), etc. etc. Humorously, the fact that I feel this way makes me feel more of an outcast, which makes it all come full circle. Seriously, does anyone know why that might be other than be just being really messed up? I'm pretty sure I didn't have a traumatic introduction to sexuality so I don't think it's like a warped interpretation of that.
*TL;DR: lol same*
Hey, fellow Overwatchin' buddy! :D
Gotta open by saying I've loved everything about Zenyatta from the moment I saw him, but even thinking about why, I didn't relate my feelings to who I was as a person until this video. A lot of what I'm attracted to about robots is how they're clean and inorganic (I have a HUGE aversion to gore/germs; I don't even like handling raw meat) and they feel both safe and beautifully deliberate. Everything about a robot is masterfully designed, a bunch of interconnected mechanisms moving together and I just really get into the artistry of it. Especially on Zenyatta, whose weightless but powerful movements feel so elegant.
I knew a lot of what I liked about him besides his gorgeous design and animation was how genuinely kind, wise, and selfless he is. He goes out of his way to help others and is generally a source of peaceful stability for his team. Thinking about it, robots are appealing to me because they lack a lot of "threats" or "flaws" (germs, general meaty/boniness, etc.) I see in humans, but Zenyatta in particular has a strong sense of emotional balance, something I personally have always craved. He is calm, he is reasonable, he understands that while the world can be tumultuous, it is important to try and change what you can and make peace with what you can't. For a lot of my life, I've dealt with depression and anxiety, along with anger problems, and I think without realizing it, I was drawn to Zenyatta because he represents an internal stability that I sometimes grapple with myself.
To kind of share some personal stuff, I've been dealing with addiction for several years now, and after suffering through some serious lows, I found a lot of solace in just plopping down in a chair with Overwatch and playing Zenyatta. His slow pace makes you take your time, focus, be mindful of your surroundings and the choices you make. It might feel a little silly to admit, but his attitude really resonates with me when I'm feeling down on myself. I remember that it's okay to make mistakes, because they're learning experiences. Losing is alright, messing up and feeling weak is alright, because it's all about growing as a person. I've been working hard to get past this point in my life, and I'm making good progress, but I owe at least a small part of it to being made to sit back and practice handling adversity with a clear head, and optimism.
Gosh, that got a little heavy. I'm really attracted to Zenyatta because he's a pretty floaty robot man and he's helped me come to terms with my own mental illness, to sum it up. Great video, glad you're a Winston fan because he's fantastic. :D
I found this video 2 years after it went up but wanted to share my "relatable monster crush" so here goes;
Discord from My Little Pony: Friendship Is Magic.
My fascination with Discord started in the first place because I was obsessed with dragons and saw fanart for this dragon looking thing on DeviantArt, from a TV show that a lot of my friends were singing praises for. So I sat down to watch, and...immediately became enthralled with this character and his place in Magical Ponyland. I put off watching his debut episode (at the start of Season 2) to watch all of Season 1 first, just to get the full context behind the show, and beyond **looking** unlike any other character in the show I had seen up to that point, how he fit into the show's paradigm was intriguing. In that he didn't fit into that paradigm at all. He was a hodgepodge of animal parts with a superiority complex and reality-bending magical powers who didn't value friendship, thrown into a world where every single other major character was crafted from a base model and whose entire society revolved around how important friendship was.
I related to it because there were echoes of me in the characterization. I was in college when I got into MLP, but grade school (specifically elementary school, the age group this show was aimed towards) had been pretty rough for me because I was the one who stood out. Physically in that I wore big, thick glasses and was tall and lanky, and emotionally because I was kinda weird and more of a loner who wasn't surrounded by tons of friends (debatable whether my being a loner was inherent or a result of being bullied over wearing glasses). I rejected the notion that I NEEDED any friends up until high school, preferring to just exist in my own little fantasy bubble (I did have a few close friends up through middle and high school, but they were mostly school-only friends who I didn't see a whole lot of outside of class). I probably would've gone on thinking like this for longer had I not found this kid's show with technicolor horses who sang songs at random and defeated enemies with friendship lasers. And the fact that Discord, the character who had dragged me into the whole colorful mess in the first place, later went on to be reformed and accept that friendship is maybe not so bad, helped me to come to terms with what had happened in school and how not-particularly-healthy my response to it had been. It might not have turned me into a social butterfly overnight, but I became more open to the idea of opening up to other people and making some Goddamn friends.
(and then they went and absolutely trashed his character arc in the later seasons, which I have many strong feelings about but won't get into for fear of writing an essay (a longer one, anyway) in a TH-cam comment)
+ Edit to add that adding to this "otherness" was the fact that Discord never really displayed any romantic inclinations in the show (great because I'm ace and was definitely not down with the whole Forced Love Interest in any type of media), BUT he was also **very heavily queer coded** in that he regularly showed interests that weren't stereotypically masculine, in his mannerisms and inflection when speaking, and he wore dresses/pink a lot for comic relief, so....eeeeehhhh
I find this take very interesting, i never saw it this way before. Being a black, bi woman and learning and dealing with how the world sees you is hard. So for my natural empathy to go towards these creatures because of what you explained is fascinating. Simply put,
We are the fools we seek.
The way Eliza feels looked at is exactly right. I finally found someone like that and I get it now
That was absolutely beautiful and something I can deeply relate to.. thank you ❤️
Challenger I love me some Readus ❤️
Here because of your pop in during Lindsay's video, and I'm so glad to have found you!
I think my first introduction to this sort of “monster” lover trope was Beauty and the Beast & Megamind. I connected with them a lot but recently I watched Edward Scissorhands for the first time and I think it’s the most I’ve related and felt for a character in a long time. Not only is he incredibly attractive in a cute/endearing sort of way, but I think the fact that he’s so close to human but just slightly off makes it so easy to feel for him because he’s not a large alien creature in suburbia, but rather an “almost-person”. The scene where the men tell a joke about him (“you can’t cut!”) and they all laugh around him, while he just smiles awkwardly after a moment is something I deal with all the time due to my ADHD. Along with the scene in the salon where Joyce is dragging him around and showing him everything, and he keeps getting distracted to stare at whatever she showed him while she’s already moved on. I also think the bittersweet ending is a more realistic outcome for what happens when a group of people treat someone with so much “otherness”, whether it’s crazed obsession/trending, or eventual fear and misunderstanding. The movie was such a gut punch to that feeling of isolation where he’s not quite sad but missing something he only experienced for a short while because I’ve had the exact same experience.
growing up, i had no idea i was gay, but i still new i was... different, odd maybe. and i was *obsessed* with disney's beauty and the beast, and to a lesser extent, every variation on the fairytale. i had sort of projected myself onto both belle and beast in different ways, as a social outcast, be it for my adhd, weird attitude, or just my appearance. i saw in both of them the different reasons i wasn’t welcome, why i was bullied, or why i felt like i HAD to isolate myself to avoid getting hurt. and seeing the beast and belle fall in love and become better people through their empathy and care for one another told me that i could become better, if not for the world, for one person and myself. i could be loved. it didn’t matter if it was just that one person, it could happen, and everything would be okay. when i watched this film over and over again, i was watching the only shred of proof i had that i deserved to love and be loved in return.
and now that i’m grown and gay as all hell, i can say that my biggest monster crushes, at least growing up, were disney’s beast, goliath from gargoyles, and pretty much any role taken on by ron perlman.
great video!!
Dang, I haven't seen this movie yet but I definitely need to. That one clip of her explaining how he looks at her actually got me choked up
My monster crush is GLaDOS. Her voice, her mannerisms, her design, it's all so perfect
DUDE SAME
I started to relate to monster/human relationships before I even began to suspect that I was bisexual, in the sense of both being attracted to monsters and seeing myself in them personally. After a lot of therapy and reflection, I think that this sort of monster attraction can also be born from self-hatred or lack of self-esteem. It's really easy to get into the idea of a monster and a human getting together when you think you are a monster emotionally and physically, almost like rooting for the underdog. Your video and Lindsay Ellis' video on this are super great and I'm so happy to find people who can understand the sentiment! You both earned my subscription!
Love the video.
I think another factor might be which traits the character has. For example ,we may associate canines with loyalty and protection so then we might displace these traits onto a "monster" that looks canine and be drawn to them because of that. This is just one example and won't apply to everyone. I also think it's amazing how many "monster" characters have deep sexy voices as if we were always meant to fall for them.
Oh, the sheer number of "monster" crushes I've had:
Brooklyn from Gargoyles.
Tiger of the Wind from Monster Rancher
Ratchet from Ratchet and Clank
Silverbolt from Beast Wars
Countless Digimon (Leomon, Flamedramon, Weregarurumonetc)
Drum Bunker Dragon from Future Card Buddyfight
Doggie Cruger from Power Rangers SPD
He's not a Movie Monster in the typical sense but I always related to the Iron Giant. He was always viewed as a fearful weapon but through a child's eyes he was able to become what he wanted be.
I'm glad Lindsay directed us here! Great video, I too find monsters... alluring. I remember a while ago someone was pondering why monster-love is so popular, and one reason another person gave was that a lot of people are insecure about their looks; and to a monster lover, one's looks would probably be insignificant. The monster probably wouldn't define you by the same beauty standards our world does. When I read this, it totally made sense to me...
-PS my current monster crush is Sidon from LoZ.-
I'm so glad someone finally said it. I've just realized my attraction to monsters and I've been confused and even somewhat ashamed for a while. Thank you for speaking what I couldn't work out in my head. I dig the fish man so much, he cute. And skeletons, like Jack and such.
How have I never made these connections before? It feels like you've given me an awakening therapy session, for real! Oh my god!
I feel like this whole "monster attraction" phenomena is part of what helped me come to terms with my lesbianism, after years of thinkimg I was asexual. I had always been compelled by the few stories where the monster _lady_ was the sympathetic one instead of just being jerkoff material for the straight white male audience. Part of this fascination to female monsters/elves/orcs/what have you in fiction really helped me come to terms with being gay last year, and I've never looked back since.
So....this video just brought to light something I could never verbalize. Growing up I had this toy of the beast from ‘Beauty and the Beast’ He was my best friend and I loved him more than I love most people. I took him everywhere and my parents didn’t really understand why that toy was the one I attached too....I didn’t understand it but I knew he understood me in ways that no one else really did. Even well into adulthood I would cry when I thought about never seeing him again and this video really made it all click. I saw myself as beast. Growing up confused about who I was yet this beast, although hideous to others, had a heart of gold and in someways was the love of my life. I’ve never shared this story with anyone and I’m trying not to get emotional as I type this.
Even now as an early 30’s man just starting to embrace his color and sexuality I hope Beast will find his way back to me. He was my best friend. My first love and taught me more about myself than I ever realized. Thank you for this video. Thank you so much.
Gurl, the Beast was my first fictional crush, I ADORE him.
I used to watch Gargoyles as a kid and I remember finding Goliath and the villain Xanatos incredibly compelling. I really liked their voices and their looks. I was also immensely into Elisa Maza and Demona. In little me's head, I admired them and found them very cool. As an adult, I recognize that I had as much of a crush on them as on Goliath and Xanatos. But I found Elisa's relationship with both Goliath and Xanatos the most interesting. In Goliath's case, she was a cultural touchstone for him and his family, as well as a way to learn. He needed her, was aware of his need, and respectful of what she had to do to get him what he needed. In the case of Elisa and Xanatos, I'm probably remembering it wrong, but she was an unstoppable thorn in his side. He could put her off, but not escape her, and he couldn't take her out on his own--he needed help to do it. In both of those relationships, Elisa has immense amounts of power, as well as the ability to use it well. For a young black girl, that was impressive. Goliath was a powerful monster who bowed to her will because he needed her, and Xanatos didn't bow to her will, but he also couldn't make her bow to his. I guess this turned out to be more about Elisa than Goliath, but there you go.
i love Demona myself
My teacher was actually the one who pointed out the similarity between all my monster crushes - I didn't figure it out myself; they're always intelligent, witty (big one), or wise. It was kinda an awkward situation, but she was so sweet and cool about it, haha. As for my first crush... definitely Hellboy. Who am I kidding, I still have the serious hots for him! But I also definitely had a crush on 2005 Kong, too. For the exact same reason as the female protagonist (who's name I cannot recall), in fact. It's nice to have an explanation for this now, even if just to understand just a little why I am so freaking weird in this regard.
Right now... my crush is freaking Yoda. I must say, that's a new one for me. -__-
That scene from Shape of Water, though: gives me a chilll every time.
Beast from X Men was a legit crush growing up. He was smart and kind and you know he'd be super snuggly.
I honestly clicked on this video because I wasn't planning on seeing The Shape of Water until it hits Netflix and I'm always one to support Black folks on TH-cam. However, I am always intrigued by different perspectives on certain issues. Thank you for the insight, brother. I like having my brain challenged.
I'm actually writing a monster romance novel right now! I've been enamored with them since I was very young. I had a huge crush on the Predator from AvP, but my first true monster love was Hellboy. The Shape of Water and it's success brings me so much joy, and gives me so much hope as someone who creates similar stories. :D
I think it's part of the Queer Experience™ to relate A LOT and in a very particular way to monsters in fiction, especially those who are not evil, just outsiders, whether it's a "monster" for their looks or their abilities, physically showing that otherness or trying very hard to conceal it.
I remember one of the first dates I took my husband on was to watch this movie, a guy whose a big nerd for war movies. Poor man sat and watched this as I cried without making fun of me or the movie. Pretty good indicator he was the one
I think for me the first monster I was attracted to was not literally a monster per se, but more of a villain - Poison Ivy. She's kinda framed as a monster sometimes, like she's not entirely human but rather part human, part plant. And in the comics, she turned out to be canonically queer (to my inner closeted child's delight). And I think it's interesting that in earlier portrayals of Poison Ivy, she was depicted as an irredeemable villain, and now she's a sympathetic kinda chaotic neutral character who has her own story arc and shows personal growth.
Then there was my vampire phase, which came before Twilight (thank the gods), starting with Buffy the Vampire Slayer. I related to Buffy herself having a secret identity (similar to most superheroes), and I related to the vampires who were supposedly "damned" and were harmed by holy symbols and unable to come into the light for fear of being burned - and thus being relegated to the shadows or any underground, hidden from the rest of humanity. This definitely feels like a metaphor for queerness to me.
That's a theme that pretty much exists in all vampire fiction - certainly Carmilla, of course, and Dracula stories to a lesser extent, and definitely in Anne Rice's "Interview" and subsequent stories. True Blood took it to a greater extreme, which I loved, not only with canonically queer characters but subtext so unsubtle it's pretty much text (using the phrase "coming out of the coffin" comes to mind).
Watching The Shape of Water kinda made a click as to why I always related to monsters and had such affection for them. X-Men was a gateway personally, but that did evolve into a love and empathy all types of monsters. The desire to be loved, but instead be ostracized for things not in your control speaks incredibly strongly with me. As a kid who felt so out of their skin for not feeling like either sex, and not even feeling sexually interested at all as a teen, it becomes easy to see yourself as monstrous or wrong, and want to see humanity in others who could or have shown to feel the same way.
Ramblings aside, this is a very wonderful and well thought out video! I'm glad I found it through Lindsay.
I loved Shape of Water so much. New to your channel but I have a feeling it’s a new favorite as well.
I'm madly in love with Garrus Vakarian from the Mass Effect franchise. I think what draws me to Garrus is his personality and his unwavering loyalty to his friends because these are qualities I look for in others. The fact he's a big alien doesn't deter me at all and it's something I've come to embrace.
Two monsters that I will say have always fascinated me (and that I figured out I may have an attraction to) was (in general) the vampiress (I had the 7-11monster cards and she was my favorite) and Medusa, who rather than finding her ugly and repulsive for her snake hair, actually loved her for that very quality.
Watching this pretending Mewtwo watched this after watching Shape Of Water. I wonder how he, or any other "monster", would view this topic?
Thank you for the vid, it was incredibly validating.
So not attraction, but I felt a deep connection to Mike in monsters University. Shortly before seeing this movie I had been rejected for the second and final time by the program I wanted to major in. Seeing someone else, even a fictional character, try so hard and still fail at their goal was extremely comforting for me, and is making me emotional just thinking about it now.
There's been a lot of monsters I've had crushes on over the years...A lot of them. One that still stands out to me despite my not looking at the thing he's from for ages has been Thrall because I mean...He's big and green and honors the dead and also nice. AND HE'S BIG AND GREEN. There's Hellboy too. And the Beast. Really my tastes seem to be "vampires, be they beastly or foppish, male or female" and "BIG BUFF MEN, BETTER IF FURRY AND FANGED".
"BIG BUFF MEN, BETTER IF FURRY AND FANGED"
Honestly, same.
this is the first video i've watched from you. as a pan chinese kid, this vid really helped me to reconcile aspects of my own identity with my fav media... now that i step back and look at everything! you're really good at articulating these themes and ideas clearly thank u so much!!! you just have a really comforting way of speaking
There is a short story titled Fleur written by a half American Woman, Louise Erdrich. It has themes about the demonization of both women of color and women do not follow the social norms.
I only mention this, because Fleur, the character central in this story, is said by the narrator rumored to be married to the lake monster. She is othered and feared by both her tribe and by the white people in town.
Her only ally is the young, motherless, female narrator. They share a bond that is like mother and daughter -- Fleur and the narrator -- for most of the story, up until a pivotal moment I won't spoil in the story, when their roles are switched.
It is a good read which I recommend.
my personal favorite monster character is actually not from a movie(since i don't watch many movies, a problem i am attempting to remedy); instead it's from a video game. Zelda: Breath of the Wild's Prince Sidon, to be exact. for a few different reasons:
for pretty much the entirety of my time during middle/high school, i kind of had a personal identity crisis. i kind of had no idea where i was on the map in terms of sexuality, or general identity. i tried on lots and lots of labels to see what fit (occasionally with wanton disregard for how that affected myself and others;;), and nothing ever felt quite right.
i was also dealing with extreme bouts of depression, in large part because i was kind of feeling pressure from all sides to be this, that, or the other. without going into too much detail, my family and certain friend groups i had had very differing priorities and ideas about what the best way to lead my life was, and i didn't know who to listen to. as such, i often felt lost, confused, and even angry at others for seemingly trying to mold me to fit an agenda, and at myself for just kind of going with it.
now, Zelda. my first time playing Breath of the Wild was when i was about late 16 i believe (yes, i'm a youngin, i know;;), and meeting Sidon for the first time, i instantly was intrigued by not just him, but his entire background. Sidon is part of the kingdom of Zora, who for various story reasons that aren't too important to list now, aren't very fond of regular human(or Hylian) folk. but then here comes Sidon, just as positive as can be, instantly welcoming you as not just someone to help with his kingdom's problems, but as a friend and ally. like, even from your first time meeting him he's happy to see you! and then you and him ride in the water and take down a giant robot elephant together(makes sense in context), and despite how daunting and terrifying it all is, he takes it in stride, and is unwavering in his bravery and can-do attitude. for him it didn't matter how bad the threat looked - only that he was there to fight it, and then lose, and be willing to look to others for help, and then try again. that was the kind of positivity and STABILITY that i wanted to have, wanted to live out. Sidon represented all the qualities that i aspired to be and wanted to develop - someone who could be scared and vulnerable and reach out for help, and at the same time be a pillar of stability and a rock for people who needed it. and today, i'm finally starting to develop those qualities, albeit slowly. and i feel like that encounter planted a seed that made me believe it was possible.
also, he made me very very gay (>_>)
(sorry for writing a goddamn essay but i could go on for ages about Zelda cause it's just so good and a big part of my life ok im done for real now;;;;)
Dude, so glad I found you through this collab, your channel seems awesome!
Recently Hellboy and Abe Sapien from Del Toro's Hellboy films have done it for me, but I think the root comes from me having watched Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles as a kid. In the 2012 version the turtles each have relationships and that normalized the idea of being attracted to "monsters" to me. Leo was always my personal favorite so I blame him being sweet and nerdy for being attracted to monsters now.
This has given me such a realization when it comes to my lifelong fascination with mermaids. I like the beautiful ones and I love the frightening, monstrous ones, and wow is that a good metaphor for how terrifying my attraction to girls was to me before I realized I'm bi. Now I'm out and happy and get to enjoy my feelings for other women when they come up, and I know that mermaids are both a fascination and a monster crush of mine. Wow. Also this video is amazing, and I'm subscribing, you're awesome! :)
I feel really glad and just.. I guess kind of relieved somehow to have come across your content while revisiting some of Lindsays. Ugh sorry my emotions are all over the place right now after that last clip from Shape of Water and I've been crying. I can't word good or describe things well right now, too raw cuz it always hit too close to home.
Anyway, love this vid and I look forward to having your work to binge now ♥ Thank you for creating and sharing ♥
This is such a breath of fresh air, it... feels good seeing someone being open with his monster crushes and why they appeal to us. Thank you.
For mine? While I share you love of Moses orcs and smart gorillas with Tesla cannons. My first monster crush would have to be Hank McCoy from the original 90s xmen cartoon.
It was his otherness stacked with this impossible combination of strength, intelligence and emotional awareness that I find so painfully romantic. I can't help but love him and aspire to be like him.
My type usually hovers around that. The disciplined beast, someone who is terrifying at least at first glance but you quickly find he's a calm and gentle soul.
Oh trust me, I'm the exact same way when it comes to Hank
Shelob from mordor as a young boy I saw her as another to both fear and appreciate arthropod type animals like spiders, as a 24 year old with autism I found her a very reflective mirror of someone who knows much but is isolated due to her beastly hunger and because of past tragedies making her prefer the dark caves alone
I also grew up learning arthropods were just as prehistoric if not more so than the Dinosaurs which fed into my appreciation and love for them as any other species.