Hi Ron we here in the uk have all similar tests for different materials. With strict guidelines and manufacturing recommendations. so nice to see your video very informative . Have a happy new year David
I have analyzed all forms of moisture testing for concrete. Easiest and most accurate method is the Tramex Concrete moisture encounter. The LEAST accurate are humidity probes...if alkalinity varies in concrete (which is VERY common), the presence of these alkalies reduces evaporation of internal moisture, which equates to a reduction in humidity, which can happen even if the concrete is essentially saturated with water. The concrete encounter only takes a few seconds rather than 3 days.
Any of the non-invasive meters are meant to give you a snapshot of what is going on only in the spot you are testing and at the unique jobsite conditions at the time of the test. These meters are not going to give you a true picture of what is happening "in" the concrete over time. There is a reason flooring manufactures in general require a ASTM standard test like calcium chloride, or in situ probes. The probe method gives a reading of the relative humidity of the concrete over 72 hours time. A simple test for alkalinity should be done prior to any concrete moisture testing. It is rare (in the US and Canada) to find alkalinity so high as to cause an issue with the ASTM moisture tests.
@@robertgoldstein4024 actually you are incorrect. first, humidity is ONLY in the available pores, cracks and other open areas which is NOT concrete moisture, nor can RH probes measure water absorbed in the concrete or ANY liquid water present. Secondly a Tramex moisture meter has been field tested and the ONLY method that measured moisture accurately; this was proven when weighted against gravimetric, which is the most accurate method of measuring moisture content. Thirdly, the current sensors used in current humidity probes were found in studies to not be reliable within the range of 90-100% RH. Fourth reason is that the testing used to qualify RH probes is based ONLY on the initial mix (construction) water in freshly placed concrete. Even the study that has been used to promote RH probes cautioned that alkalinity will reduce measurable humidity in concrete, even if there is no change in moisture content. The information you cite are based on marketing language, NOT based on any factual data. One example I give in my seminars is the calibration solution used by RH probes and other moisture measuring devices to calibrate or recalibrate the sensors and/or devices. If you take a calibration reading with this solution, it will read between 74-75% RH. The calibration solution is sodium chloride (table salt) and water. No matter how much water is in that solution, the RH readings will give equal value to the container, whether it is almost empty, or nearly full of the solution/water. For this and many other reasons, flooring manufacturers are turning away from RH probes. The devices do not and CANNOT measure concrete moisture.
@@roberthiggins986 I have been in the flooring industry for 55 years. I am a certified inspector (since 1970) and an instructor for both the NWFA and the original NOFMA... 40 years as a wood floor contractor here in south Florida, so I know a little about moisture in concrete slabs. I have noticed manufacturers asking for calcium chloride tests more than in situ probes lately. I do both Wagner Rapid RH and Delmhorst Total Check systems and admittedly there's a lot of hype. Always glad to learn. What are your credentials? Regards.
@@robertgoldstein4024 I have been involved with waterproofing, restoration of many types of concrete structures, including dams, bridges, tunnels (I directed and supervised the waterproofing of 60 miles of tunnels in the London Underground, where were were 23 failed prior attempts), I directed and supervised the waterproofing of the H3 tunnel on Oahu, essentially waterproofing concrete liners that were upwards of 5,000 ft below grade. I authored the initial calcium chloride protocol for ASTM E 1907, adopted by the F committee which became F 1869), I was an instructor for several years at the Academy of Textiles and Flooring. Since 1985 I have been hired as a construction defect expert in hundreds of projects, given seminars for CSI (including their 2001, 2002 and 2005 National Conventions), written concrete inspection protocol for the SSPC and currently on the IICRC Committee (S230) in developing the Industry Inspection Standards for flooring and substrate inspectors. I do want to compliment you on using Delmhorst. I have found most of their equipment to be in the top three in moisture testing, particularly for wood. One thing you should be aware of. ALL concrete in the U.S. is now more alkaline than it was in the past. At the beginning of 2019, the concrete industry announced they would no longer be making "low-alkali" cement. This is due in most part to the EPA requirements of cement production recovery of flue gases. Part of this recovery is a reintroduction of what is called CKD (cement kiln dust). This is a very alkaline powder that is now being added to ALL cement. The increasing occurrence of curling slabs is but one of the emerging issues the flooring industry will be dealing with from here on out. If you want to know more about me, you can ask people such as Howard Brickman, Robert Blochinger, Roland Vierra, Steve Phillips and a few others that have been around for awhile. Now, if you want some more eye openers and something that will make you view moisture testing in a new light, look up "ionic dew point"...that is an issue consistent with concrete that most inspectors don't even know to look for.
It would have been nice for you to explain how to fix a moisture problem if you come across it. Would you have to install a different type of flooring? Do you have to put some type of barrier down?
+martylts There are various solutions depending on the substrate and material. Best to read the manufacture's cut sheet and if they don't make it clear, contact them. Wood on wood is a waiting game. Concrete is usually a vapor barrier. Sometimes there is no fix and a different flooring will be the only option.
Probably a dumb question, but do you need to check moisture content if the slab has been down for 30 years and is at ground level? Thinking of replacing carpet on top of slab with hardwood flooring.
+SyberPrepper Not a dumb question. I would still check for moisture as you could have an ongoing moisture problem that hasn't shown up yet. Carpet will allow moisture to pass through and if it is a small amount, no one would notice. Once you place a solid impervious material on it, the moisture will build up and cause the hard surface to expand and buckle or pop loose in the case of tile.
So now it's August 2019, did you ever wind up doing your floors? If so, how's it holding up on your concrete? I ask because I have the same situation and thinking about pulling the carpet and doing something. Found a laminate at Menards that I love (EZ Plank medium oak)that would look incredible but concerned about that product on concrete. I know I would have to lay down moisture barrier, but just wondering how it would do in the long haul? If I could find a vinyl plank flooring that I'd like in the majority of my place I would use that, but haven't come across a great one yet. I did the bath in VPF which turned out great but wouldn't want it throughout my place. Any feedback will be welcome:)
concrete slabs will wick up any moisture that is there, i think that if the slab is wet you would need to do water divertion on the perimeter of the house to keep it safe and mould free
Nick Hardy hardwood warranty requires a max moisture content. Even if the concrete is old you need to test and document the moisture level or you will be stuck paying for wood and install.
i dont do much flooring, mainly im a new construction trim and kitchen guy. but with remodels ill do the hardwoods/laminate myself. is it worth me getting one of those meters?
+Joe Spaz HI Joe, absolutely. I would not install any flooring without documenting the substrate and material moisture content. One job gone bad will pay for a truck load of meters. I paid $600 for mine as I wanted a certified one that would stand up to any scrutiny. If you get one and the moisture content doesn't meet the flooring manufactures specks, don't install the material regardless of the pressure from contractor or clients. I subbed out a hardwood job about 15 years ago and it had moisture problems a year later. Fortunately, I used a large regional company and they paid for it. The original job materials and labor was about 4K, the fix cost them 15K.
Hi Ron we here in the uk have all similar tests for different materials. With strict guidelines and manufacturing recommendations. so nice to see your video very informative . Have a happy new year David
I have analyzed all forms of moisture testing for concrete. Easiest and most accurate method is the Tramex Concrete moisture encounter. The LEAST accurate are humidity probes...if alkalinity varies in concrete (which is VERY common), the presence of these alkalies reduces evaporation of internal moisture, which equates to a reduction in humidity, which can happen even if the concrete is essentially saturated with water. The concrete encounter only takes a few seconds rather than 3 days.
Any of the non-invasive meters are meant to give you a snapshot of what is going on only in the spot you are testing and at the unique jobsite conditions at the time of the test. These meters are not going to give you a true picture of what is happening "in" the concrete over time. There is a reason flooring manufactures in general require a ASTM standard test like calcium chloride, or in situ probes. The probe method gives a reading of the relative humidity of the concrete over 72 hours time. A simple test for alkalinity should be done prior to any concrete moisture testing. It is rare (in the US and Canada) to find alkalinity so high as to cause an issue with the ASTM moisture tests.
@@robertgoldstein4024 actually you are incorrect. first, humidity is ONLY in the available pores, cracks and other open areas which is NOT concrete moisture, nor can RH probes measure water absorbed in the concrete or ANY liquid water present. Secondly a Tramex moisture meter has been field tested and the ONLY method that measured moisture accurately; this was proven when weighted against gravimetric, which is the most accurate method of measuring moisture content. Thirdly, the current sensors used in current humidity probes were found in studies to not be reliable within the range of 90-100% RH. Fourth reason is that the testing used to qualify RH probes is based ONLY on the initial mix (construction) water in freshly placed concrete. Even the study that has been used to promote RH probes cautioned that alkalinity will reduce measurable humidity in concrete, even if there is no change in moisture content. The information you cite are based on marketing language, NOT based on any factual data. One example I give in my seminars is the calibration solution used by RH probes and other moisture measuring devices to calibrate or recalibrate the sensors and/or devices. If you take a calibration reading with this solution, it will read between 74-75% RH. The calibration solution is sodium chloride (table salt) and water. No matter how much water is in that solution, the RH readings will give equal value to the container, whether it is almost empty, or nearly full of the solution/water.
For this and many other reasons, flooring manufacturers are turning away from RH probes. The devices do not and CANNOT measure concrete moisture.
@@roberthiggins986 I have been in the flooring industry for 55 years. I am a certified inspector (since 1970) and an instructor for both the NWFA and the original NOFMA... 40 years as a wood floor contractor here in south Florida, so I know a little about moisture in concrete slabs. I have noticed manufacturers asking for calcium chloride tests more than in situ probes lately. I do both Wagner Rapid RH and Delmhorst Total Check systems and admittedly there's a lot of hype. Always glad to learn. What are your credentials?
Regards.
@@robertgoldstein4024 I have been involved with waterproofing, restoration of many types of concrete structures, including dams, bridges, tunnels (I directed and supervised the waterproofing of 60 miles of tunnels in the London Underground, where were were 23 failed prior attempts), I directed and supervised the waterproofing of the H3 tunnel on Oahu, essentially waterproofing concrete liners that were upwards of 5,000 ft below grade. I authored the initial calcium chloride protocol for ASTM E 1907, adopted by the F committee which became F 1869), I was an instructor for several years at the Academy of Textiles and Flooring. Since 1985 I have been hired as a construction defect expert in hundreds of projects, given seminars for CSI (including their 2001, 2002 and 2005 National Conventions), written concrete inspection protocol for the SSPC and currently on the IICRC Committee (S230) in developing the Industry Inspection Standards for flooring and substrate inspectors. I do want to compliment you on using Delmhorst. I have found most of their equipment to be in the top three in moisture testing, particularly for wood. One thing you should be aware of. ALL concrete in the U.S. is now more alkaline than it was in the past. At the beginning of 2019, the concrete industry announced they would no longer be making "low-alkali" cement. This is due in most part to the EPA requirements of cement production recovery of flue gases. Part of this recovery is a reintroduction of what is called CKD (cement kiln dust). This is a very alkaline powder that is now being added to ALL cement. The increasing occurrence of curling slabs is but one of the emerging issues the flooring industry will be dealing with from here on out. If you want to know more about me, you can ask people such as Howard Brickman, Robert Blochinger, Roland Vierra, Steve Phillips and a few others that have been around for awhile. Now, if you want some more eye openers and something that will make you view moisture testing in a new light, look up "ionic dew point"...that is an issue consistent with concrete that most inspectors don't even know to look for.
If you do the moisture test (taped down plastic sheeting) after having a couple days of rain, would it possible affect the outcome of the test?
It would have been nice for you to explain how to fix a moisture problem if you come across it. Would you have to install a different type of flooring? Do you have to put some type of barrier down?
+martylts There are various solutions depending on the substrate and material. Best to read the manufacture's cut sheet and if they don't make it clear, contact them. Wood on wood is a waiting game. Concrete is usually a vapor barrier. Sometimes there is no fix and a different flooring will be the only option.
Probably a dumb question, but do you need to check moisture content if the slab has been down for 30 years and is at ground level? Thinking of replacing carpet on top of slab with hardwood flooring.
+SyberPrepper Not a dumb question. I would still check for moisture as you could have an ongoing moisture problem that hasn't shown up yet. Carpet will allow moisture to pass through and if it is a small amount, no one would notice. Once you place a solid impervious material on it, the moisture will build up and cause the hard surface to expand and buckle or pop loose in the case of tile.
Thanks Ron. I'll check it.
So now it's August 2019, did you ever wind up doing your floors? If so, how's it holding up on your concrete?
I ask because I have the same situation and thinking about pulling the carpet and doing something.
Found a laminate at Menards that I love (EZ Plank medium oak)that would look incredible but concerned about that product on concrete.
I know I would have to lay down moisture barrier, but just wondering how it would do in the long haul?
If I could find a vinyl plank flooring that I'd like in the majority of my place I would use that, but haven't come across a great one yet. I did the bath in VPF which turned out great but wouldn't want it throughout my place. Any feedback will be welcome:)
You mean even Ron Paulk leaves stuff at home by mistake? Oh man, that is good to know. I thought only I made those mistakes.
concrete slabs will wick up any moisture that is there, i think that if the slab is wet you would need to do water divertion on the perimeter of the house to keep it safe and mould free
Nick Hardy hardwood warranty requires a max moisture content. Even if the concrete is old you need to test and document the moisture level or you will be stuck paying for wood and install.
i dont do much flooring, mainly im a new construction trim and kitchen guy. but with remodels ill do the hardwoods/laminate myself. is it worth me getting one of those meters?
+Joe Spaz HI Joe, absolutely. I would not install any flooring without documenting the substrate and material moisture content. One job gone bad will pay for a truck load of meters. I paid $600 for mine as I wanted a certified one that would stand up to any scrutiny. If you get one and the moisture content doesn't meet the flooring manufactures specks, don't install the material regardless of the pressure from contractor or clients. I subbed out a hardwood job about 15 years ago and it had moisture problems a year later. Fortunately, I used a large regional company and they paid for it. The original job materials and labor was about 4K, the fix cost them 15K.
Ron Paulk Thanks Ron!
Hello I have this problem now I install hardwood floor the floor coming out I have a lot moisture what is the best liquid too comer the moisture?
omg no crazy bull shit intro wasting my time ,congrats dude just get down to the nitty gritty :)
Who has time to take 4 days for a reading 🤔
Anyone who doesn't want to pay for a failure due to moisture vapor transmission.
that would not work for me today couse its nor recommended to drill into the concrete slap might be tension
Well presented and Informative, until you thought it wouldn't be helpful to share the moisture reading data, then it became a waste if time.
Who has time to take 4 days for a reading 🤔
I do. Doing the job right requires it. Callbacks to remove and replace flooring takes a lot longer than 4 days and costs a lot more.
Ron Paulk so what do you do if the reading is to high?