This distinction is true for any card game. Lesser so for Pokemon and Hearthstone since you can’t typically interact with your opponent. And not only is it true for discarding but for any kind of effect. MTG definitely has plenty of “As an additional Cost” cards or cards with abilities that trigger just from casting the card even if it ends up getting Countered or whatever
This is true across multiple if not most games, but it definitely seems to be most relevant in Yu-Gi-Oh. The most common analog I see in MTG is actually cards that sacrifice creatures as cost. No way to stop them from getting them to the GY (and/or triggering their on-death effects 💀)
@@gabrielsalahi3656 oh man, I would love to get into MTG for a little bit, but as a veteran duel monsters player, who grew up on yugioh cartoons, the concept of mana (or rather "lands") and having 30 life points scare me a lot xD
Worth mentioning that since Hearthstone doesnt have a Graveyard, Discarding in that game means deleting the card from the game. In other games it would be considered "exile" or 'banish"
@marleonka. Well kind of. Hearthstone has a "Graveyard", and a "discard pile" and a "Poof pile". There are cards that interact with each (besides poof).
@@Flashofblades Rather than a "graveyard" per se, its more so the pool of dead minions. Some cards do interact with it, yeah. but it's not a regular card game graveyard. And for getting back discarded cards, there's only really like one or two maybe, so I don't think it makes an important enough interaction.
@@marleonka. and it shouldn’t, I haven’t played hearthstone in years but I’ll be mad for the community on the day they make a card that allows you to interact with dead minions. I’d hate killing a ragnaros only to have my opponent bring him back
@@marleonka. Hearthstone has a graveyard it's just not viewable to the players. You just have to remember what was sent to the graveyard. If they were exiled they would be permanently removed from the game and you wouldn't be able to resurect them.
@@MrGhosta5 I know it does, but there isn't a designated graveyard mechanic, or a pile like it is in the other card games. Different enough to to mention the distinction. Either way, Discarded cards are not sent to the pile of used cards either, so it doesnt matter in this case
Speaking of reanimate with discard, “how good is reanimate in every card game” would be a nice video to showcase all the different strategies. I enjoy the Bloomburrow Golgari food in Magic for all the value you can get.
as to add on for the discard section in pokemon, there was an absolutely overpowered card that defined discard decks: an exeggcute. it has 30 hp and a measly 2 energy attack for 20 damage. so what made the card meta defining? it's ability propagation. if the card enters the discard pile, you can put it in your hand. this may not sound much but it enabled so much decks. for example, there was a card called zoroark gx that had an ability to discard a card in your hand in order to draw 2 cards. if you discarded the exeggcute, the ability basically has no cost whatsoever!
In Gwent discard is a little bit problematic. Discard exists as one of the Skellige's archetypes. It is generally solid and strong, allowing extreme tempo plays with cards like Coral (6 power, 8 provision, Zeal, order: draw a card, then discard a card. Whenever you discard a card, deal 2 to a random enemy), Birna Bran (6 8 deploy: draw up to 2 cards, then discard as many cards), Morkvarg (when this unit enters your graveyard during your turn, summon it to your melee row and grant it doomed), and Tuirseach Skirmisher (4 5 when I'm discarded, summon me to your melee row). The real problem begins with Magic Compass, which is a deck's wincon. I won't explain how the compass works, but the problem is: at 10 provision it is underwhelming and can only be played in a dedicated discard deck, at 9 provision it enters the Golden Nekker club, and the Golden Nekker is just the perfect match for this card. This is what happened during the very first gwentfinity vote: Compass was buffed to 9 provision and Nekker-Pirates took it's place as a tier-1 deck. If you are interested: Magic Compass: "Echo. Look at the top 3 cards of your deck. Play 1 of them and move other 2 to your graveyard. If there are fewer than 3 cards in your deck, spawn and play a legendary card from your faction, that wasn't in your starting deck'. Was painfully nerfed to a whole of 12 provision. Golden Nekker: if your deck has no cards that cost 10 or more play the top unit, top spell and top artifact from your deck.
One of my favorite cards in all of card games is the Magic card One With Nothing. It is a terrible card whose only effect is Discard your hand. It was purposefully designed to see if players could make something interesting out such a bad effect, and that is why I love it so much. It is a testament to always finding new and unique ways of thinking about design.
I have nothing to add but to say these videos are all very well done and as a card game enjoyers it’s very entertaining and insightful to watch - keep making these videos! 🎉
I think the most interesting thing about Pokémon is how the game from 2007-2010 was more based around cycling cards in and out of the deck with Claydol Cosmic Power. There were only a few decks like Gyarados from that time period that relied on discard effects and the discard synergy at the time was not nearly as strong as cards like Professor Juniper and Ultra Ball which began being printed in 2011 and 2012, which saw the transition to a much simpler game
you should probably have mentioned that Yu-Gi-Oh also differentiates between discarding for cost and discarded by effect, discarding for cost won't trigger the Dark World archetype
Im suprised he didnt mention Tearlaments which are very recent and need to be discarded by effect. If you use Super Poly and discard Havnis for cost nothing happens.
In Keyforge, discarding cards isn't even a cost; it's often a huge benefit. Since at the end of each turn you draw back up to 6, you can discard cards you don't need to hopefully draw into something more useful, or dig through your deck for specific cards. Add in Scrap effects, where cards give you an additional benefit for discarding them, and the 'haunted' keyword, where you get bonuses for having 10 or more cards in your discard pile, and you get even _more_ value. The card Recklessness has each player discard 3 random cards and then draw 3 new cards and is considered to be very strong, as you can potentially draw into more cards that you can use while also having a chance at disrupting your opponent's plans.
I usually play shadowverse which is similar to hearthstone. In this game there are discard cards in every class but only two can take advantage of this mechanic: The first is dragoncraft which is a ramp-combo oriented discard deck; the second one is bloodcraft which is an aggro that benefits from having no card in hand.
Another cool trivia from mtg is that old-timey dredge decks would sometime "cheat" a discard effect by deliberately going second, not playing anything for turn and then being forced to discard down to 7. This allowed them to completely circumvent even the game's mana system and build a deck with 0 lands.
Oooo another fun video! Im curious what a 'How good are alternative win conditions' video would look like because i dont even know if Magic or Pokemon have those kind or 'if X you win the game' style effects
@@MEW-hn2dn magic has several, ranging from solid gameplan to weird gimmicks you pull off once with your friends in a very casual goofing off game, they're not ordered: - if your deck is basically empty you win (thassa's oracle, legal in most formats) - if you would lose the game from drawing from an empty library, you win instead (several cards, there's a jace that does this, as well as an enchantment, very similar general gameplan as the first (get rid of your entire fucking deck ASAP and win the game)) - approach of the second sun (if you cast a second second sun from hand you win, otherwise you put second sun back in your deck 7 from the top and gain 7 life) - if this card has 100 counters on it you win, you can pay X mana to put X counters on it (helix pinnacle, also has protection that makes it hard to dislodge, best with counter doublers) - control 10 or more "gate" lands (maze's end) - triskaidekaphile, have 13 cards in hand at the beginning of your turn, also turns off maximum hand size - start your turn at 1 life with this card out (near death experience) - if there are 20 or more creatures in your graveyard at the start of your turn, you win (mortal combat) - have a copy of this card in hand, exile, graveyard and on the field (hedron alignment) - you control 20 or more artifacts / 10 or more treasures at the start of your turn (hellkite tyrant, revel in riches) - this card has 20 counters on it (simic ascendancy) - you have more than 50 life at the start of turn (test of endurance) - have more than 200 cards remaining in your deck at the beginning of your turn (battle of wits) - control 4 of a specific guy at the start of your turn (biovisionary) - have won 10 coinflips in a game and get to the start of your turn (chance encounter) - make your opponent lose the game on the spot (door to nothingness, 5 generic mana artifact that enters tapped, for double of each color mana, tap, and sacrifice: target opponent loses the game) there's more, you can look through all of them on scryfall with "otag:alternate-win-condition"
@@dudono1744 there have been 6 alt win conditions in Pokemon (and 1 instant lose condition) the 3 unown, 1 unknown V, Lost World, and a slowbro. and the lose condition was from slowbro. Unown: Damage (banned); if your bench has 66dmg counters, you win Unown: Hand (banned); if you have 35 cards in hand, you win Unown: Lost; if opponent has 12+ supporters in lost zone, you win Unown V: 3(c) attack; if you have 1 prize remaining, you win Slowbro: 3(c) attack; if you have 1 prize remaining, you win Lost World (pre expanded format): if player's opponent has 6 pkmn in lost zone, player wins then the lose condition: slowbro: 1(w)2(c) attack; if you flip 3 tails, you lose
13:07 Building a "Discard Deck" is one of Slay the Spire's most iconic strategies. The Silent (one of the 4 characters in the game) can draft many cards with discard synergies as she progresses through the game. Some discard effects allow you to draw more cards, get more energy to play said cards, or replace your hand with 0-cost attacks. And since you can cycle through your entire deck many times in one battle, you can end up with some crazy combos/infinites that wouldn't work in a PvP game.
I also wanna add as a Pokemon TCG player that alot of decks use the graveyard as a second hand or to store cards only to retrive them with cards like Lugia EX, Night Stretcher and most of the time having cards in the GY is acutally an advantage. Its to the point that in X and Y we had a card called "Team Flare battle compressor" that discarded 3 and it was like one of the best cards in the format and now we have an Ace Spec (that you can only have one of per deck) called "Brilliant Mixer" that Discards 5 and it sees alot of use. So yeah, Discarding in Pokemon is one of the best effects in the game Btw love your videos ❤
In addition to discarding (sending to GY), YuGiOh has also banishing and Pokémon has the Lost Zone. Are there similar concepts in Magic and Hearthstone?
@@Xernisfy magic has exile, which is similar to banish in yugioh except there's only 3-4 cards I can think of that either want to be exiled, or can recur things from exile. It's a very unreachable zone which makes exile removal significantly better than banishing removal in yugioh.
Magic's exile and PTCG's Lost Zone remains an unreachable place to this day, while YGO's Banishment (yes it has a name now) is literally a second graveyard (while graveyard itself is a second hand, or a third if you consider the extra deck.)
Hearthstone is a little tricky because it doesn't really have an accessible graveyard like most other TCGs. So, the line between graveyard and banishing is thinner than in other games. There are a few effects that are along the lines of "Resurrect a friendly minion that died this game" but they are usually random (Resurrect) or only chosen between a few different non-specific minions that died (Eternal Servitude). Otherwise, the graveyard/resurrect pool is invisible and inaccessible. There are a couple of effects that can prevent a minion from being added to the resurrect pool such as transform (Polymorph, Hex) and remove (Life Sentence, Reno Lone Ranger). In addition, they also act as ways to prevent Deathrattle (on death) effects. Those are about the closest thing to banishing that Hearthstone has. EDIT: Also forgot to mention that Hearthstone's discard mechanic functions as a banish, NOT an addition to the graveyard. A discarded card is essentially lost forever.
@@ItsPForPea it isn't really, a lot of decks can't play under a card like shifter or just skip using the graveyard altogether, there are decks that make a lot of use of banishes cards but its not most of them, loads treat a card being banished as more or less unrecoverable.
Always love the SodaTCG breakdowns of TCG game mechanics. What do you think of discarding cards & using the discard pile as a toolkit as a defining feature of one of the main factions in a TCG?
I like the way discard plays in yu-gi-oh! I think it meshes really nicely with the more graveyard focus strategies in the game. It's cool to see it compared to magic or hearthstone where discard is more of it's own strategy.
@@tonfok2 Discard works really well in Snap because of the hard turn limit, so it's nice to get extra out of the cards you wouldn't have had time to play.
Discarding is very strong in Vampire: The Eternal Struggle. In VtES, you have a fixed hand size: you draw to replace immediately after playing any card. So discarding lets you draw a new card without having to play a card that you might not meet the requirements for or which might take one of your limited number of actions to use. It's even more powerful than, say, card draw in Magic.
Cool video, but I think you're underestimating just how broken discarding can be in Yu-Gi-Oh Duel Monsters... Like, for real, the modern meta simply converges around using your GY as an extra fuel tank
I only recently started playing pokemon live and I gotta say that Gholdengo ex it's one of the most fun uses of discard mechanics that I have ever seen in game. The whole cycle of: discard like 5 o 6 energy, knock out something, find a way to put the energy back in hand, discard, repeat, I've just had a blast with it. PD: If anyone knows of another similar deck to that one, I would love to hear about it.
In expanded there is Tsureena V, that drops your bench to do damage (20+ 40 each), but expanded has more deep draw and sky field/area zero under depths, so you can drop 7 Pokemon a turn (max 300), Crobat v draw to 6, Dedenne dump hand draw to 6, Skwquakabilly ex and all the supports as well, plus their is a Giratina that comes back from discard and drops damage counters on the opponent's Pokemon to fix math on any thing other 300, the downside is its actually easier to deck out turn 3 then win if you get greedy. Really fun deck. Then Tool drop decks, which as implied run multiple tool items to discard from field or hand (depends on the attacker) and rams up, sadly never really been that good as tools don't help draw. hopefully we might get a better times multiplier in the future to make up for it, but they can be a fun rogue option. Magcargo ex is discount Gholdengo, it's easier to do 280 as night academy can place a Energy to discard from your deck and team star grunt can place a energy from your Op to their top deck, to do 420, but it's 3 attack cost is just to high to realistically chain together, very fun when it works, sadly it rarely will in standard. It's better in the expanded format as "welder" attaches 2 fire from hand and basin/turn attachment isn't hard to chain. United wings/lost March style decks, all have the same attack that ramps in damage by the number of Pokemon with the attack in the discard pile, really good if the types included are strong against the meta decks.
The thing with Yugioh is the differentiation between "discard for cost" and "discard for effect." Dark World monsters do *not* work if they're discard for cost, such as with Super Polymerization, while Danger! and Fabled monsters do benefit from being discarded for cost.
Soul fire and Doomguard saw a lotttt of play in the early days of HS. Sure it was a feels bad when you discarded your other Soulfire and missed lethal, but that usually didn’t happen so getting crazy amounts of damage for free was really good.
6:45 No, Beige doesn't trigger to revive itself when being discarded, because the dark world monsters only activate (mandatory btw) when being discarded for the effect-part of an effect (like the dangers) not when discarded for the cost to activate an effect (like in super-poly). Everything before the Semicolon is costs and chosing targets - it doesn't count as the effect. (That's why Mathmech Circular has been banned, because he puts a card from the deck into the grave for cost, which means, it happens on activation, BEFORE you ask your opponent, if they want to negate the rest of the of effect.) Also every Yu-Gi-Oh player remembers that the discard for super-poly was cost - not effect, because Verte Anaconda (when still allowed) replaced the cost by paying 2000 life points instead of the discard.
In LoR discard is quite good. First of all, the cards are of no value, compared for example to Hearthstone where you have legendaries and stuff. Second of all, there are quite a lot cards, that generate garbage cards, for example a Gift Giver - 1 mana 1/2 for Targon "When I'm summoned, create a gem in hand" and gem is just heal an ally 1 and give it +1 power, so you can use it as a fuel for Spacey Sketcher or Sump dredger to get an actual card. Last but not least, discard archetypes are generally pretty strong, still remember the first 3 top-tier decks of Rising Tides: Ezreal-Karma spell bs, Quinn-MF scouts and Draven-Jinx discard aggro.
@fernandobanda5734 you can have 3 copies of each card in your deck. There is no real rarity or something that would make some cards slightly better than others. So you don't really care which card to discard, if you need an effect (however there are premium discard fuel cards like jury-rig and flame chompers).
Rumble/Draven was probably my favorite deck i've ever played in LoR. More midrange than Jinx, but Rumble let you dump a bunch of cards into him to be a beefy threat
@@neveralive8550 But you're not guaranteed to draw the rest, and you're very incentivized to curve out. I don't think understand why normal cards are less valuable just because they aren't unique.
Discarding is constant in One Piece. Characters with counter can add 1k or 2k power to a defending character or leader. This constant shapes combat in One Piece where if you want to ensure attacks to go through, hitting for target's powe + 2k ensures that blocking will either require 2 discards or the use of a counter event which they would have to leave Don (the pay resource) open to cast, with the exception of 0 cost events that have some other cost like discarding or other alt cost One piece has only delved into recursion/animating via a recent black deck/leader and it was the most busted thing that set
What about cards that force your opponent to discard? Like Thoughtseize, Duress, Hymn to Tourach, etc. Not sure if those exist in the other card games though, I only know Magic.
is there a reason you didnt talk about the differences of rummaging ( discard before draw) vs looting (draw before discard) effects? also have you done a video on hand hate? thoughtsieze, iok, duress from mtg being examples
The first time I hit legend in hearthstone was playing discolock before tome tampering got banned. Discarding your entire hand for only 3 mana was insanely broken and basically let you play every card in your hand for no mana
one thing you forgot to mention about pokemon is that it is very VERY hard to get cards back from your discard pile. The contrast between yugioh and pokemon is kinda funny. In yugioh your discard is basically your second hand. Meanwhile in pokemon you'll be very happy if you can recover even 1 card from there. (like for Lugia you ONLY want archeops in your discard pile, or gardevoir ex where you ONLY want energy cards in your discard, because the rest of the cards are very hard to recover. Regidrago is an exception tho, regidrago is busted and can fetch anything)
im sorry but discard is completely broken in hearthstone?? discard is a huge benefit and pushed discolock to being by far the best archetype in wild for an incredibly long time
Kind of sad that you don't like Snap I feel like discard being an entire archetype with Over 20 different card abilities some good some bad would do well in this video
He has a big blind spot with Marvel SNAP since he admitted he feels as a card game player he’s the prime audience, when in reality his experience with other card games leaves him with expectations for how things “should” work without accounting for massive differences (for instance, mulligans and the SNAP system)
Also in yugioh because there is no manasystem, discarding is quite a ballance. But the real fun begins when discarding turns into benefit, just like what hearthstone did with those helpers. For video idea: how goods are towerse monsters. I don’t know if every cardgame have ones so I would be happy to watch a comparison
@@Mardshima89 its a yugioh specific community term for a boss monster that is incredibly difficult to interact with or remove makign it very hard to take down if not nearly impossible being only vulnerable to very niche forms of interactions that is likely not available in the majority of decks they typically have effects that makes them immune to a wide variety of removal options including removal by combat to a degree too but bascially their very presence “towers” over everything else on the field standing out immediately and their very presence can automatically shift the tempo or even just the flow of the game to the favor of its user the term itself fittingly originated from a monster called Apoqliphort *Towers* which is regarded as the first real tower monster the game saw as its immune to all spell/trap cards including even the effects of monsters with lower lvl when itself which is already a very high lvl 10 and on top of this it also lowers all opponent’s monster’s stats by 500 too so despite having the standard 3000 atk stat it was effectively 3500 making it so even trying to destroy it by battle because is more or less immune to everything was a greater endeavor then it shouldve been
I think Hearthstone gets a bit of a bad rap. There are definitely some decks that use discarding to their advantage, and it can be a really strategic part of the game. It's not just about losing random cards, it's about making smart choices! Think about decks like Handlock or Discard Warlock in Wild - they're super strong and rely heavily on discarding to fuel their strategies.
Hello, could i suggest a change on ur videos? I like ur content, but ill preffer a black screen on the back rather than a white (for sleeping pourposes hehe)
In my Card game I equate discard as generally being equal to “pay three life” (my card game as a life total of 15-20 depends on who’s going first or second) For example a Level2 9/9 Monster that costs 3 life and a Level2 9/9 that costs a discard in my eyes are equivalent Now even without context of my card game this doesn’t make much sense, wouldn’t you almost ALWAYS want to put the “pay life” card in your deck? And you’d be right with one exception. Theres an entire Banner (Banners basically being like Colors in MTG, you kind of only play Cards that are the same Color/Banner) who’s main gimmick is having effects that only trigger when you have 2 or less cards in your hand ENTER - If you have 2 or less Cards in your hand do _____ Spell - Gain 3 life, then if you have 2 or less Cards in your hand Draw 1 Etc etc etc. and similar to Magic every Banner has dozens of ‘unique’ gimmicks to them but there’s always the main ones that they are all known for. 2 or less cards in hand just happens to be the main gimmick of the “Warrior Banner”
@ Completely True, but the second ‘gimmick’ of Warriors does help elevate this problem SoulLinkX is a key word that is found pretty often on Warrior monsters and it’s “Once Per Turn if this Monster is destroyed, you may pay X life and put it back on the field” X is almost always either 1,2, or 3 So even once you’ve lost all the cards in your hand, it’s still gonna take awhile before you’ve also lost the cards on your field Warrior decks also tend to be aggressive so even if you lose all the cards in your hand it doesn’t really matter if your opponent is dead right?
@@gabrielsalahi3656 Good thing it's a once per turn, because it could get out of hand very quickly, especially if you make a card that lets you discard any number of cards to gain life. And the nature of being handless forces an aggressive play patern, since "keeping gas for later" straight up isn't an option. Which happens to be exactly what Infernity (a yugioh deck that relies on having an empty hand) did.
@ Yes, I learned the hard way that letting SoulLink not be a OPT isn’t exactly good design 😅 I’ve been working on this same game for a little over 6 years and it’s basically finished….except for art because art is very VERY expensive Just trying to save up until I can hire some professional artists
Yeah I made a video on hand attack cards that goes into enemy discard more. Its tough because other games don't have discard the same way magic does so the nomenclature is mixed.
Talking about discarding in yugioh but not mentioning the most broken deck that uses the graveyard a lot, tearlaments, this could have been a discussion on how stupid discarding cards for that deck is in its strongest power
depends on what you’re discarding, not every deck benefits from reckless or uninhibited dumping of cards into the grave and most of the time the deck is very specific on what they would discard rather then just any card
One thing you forgot to mention is that in yugioh discarding for cost and discarding for effect are different things
This distinction is true for any card game. Lesser so for Pokemon and Hearthstone since you can’t typically interact with your opponent. And not only is it true for discarding but for any kind of effect. MTG definitely has plenty of “As an additional Cost” cards or cards with abilities that trigger just from casting the card even if it ends up getting Countered or whatever
This is true across multiple if not most games, but it definitely seems to be most relevant in Yu-Gi-Oh.
The most common analog I see in MTG is actually cards that sacrifice creatures as cost. No way to stop them from getting them to the GY (and/or triggering their on-death effects 💀)
@@gabrielsalahi3656 oh man, I would love to get into MTG for a little bit, but as a veteran duel monsters player, who grew up on yugioh cartoons, the concept of mana (or rather "lands") and having 30 life points scare me a lot xD
@@DoctorFalchion Yo, remember Insect Queen and Panther Warrior? Those were the days
the life total is 20
I love that you call every discard pile the graveyard. Never change ❤
Hard to forget your roots lol
As a new PTCG player, I catch myself using Graveyard and Library ALL THE TIME 😂
Worth mentioning that since Hearthstone doesnt have a Graveyard, Discarding in that game means deleting the card from the game. In other games it would be considered "exile" or 'banish"
@marleonka. Well kind of. Hearthstone has a "Graveyard", and a "discard pile" and a "Poof pile". There are cards that interact with each (besides poof).
@@Flashofblades Rather than a "graveyard" per se, its more so the pool of dead minions. Some cards do interact with it, yeah. but it's not a regular card game graveyard. And for getting back discarded cards, there's only really like one or two maybe, so I don't think it makes an important enough interaction.
@@marleonka. and it shouldn’t, I haven’t played hearthstone in years but I’ll be mad for the community on the day they make a card that allows you to interact with dead minions. I’d hate killing a ragnaros only to have my opponent bring him back
@@marleonka. Hearthstone has a graveyard it's just not viewable to the players. You just have to remember what was sent to the graveyard.
If they were exiled they would be permanently removed from the game and you wouldn't be able to resurect them.
@@MrGhosta5 I know it does, but there isn't a designated graveyard mechanic, or a pile like it is in the other card games. Different enough to to mention the distinction. Either way, Discarded cards are not sent to the pile of used cards either, so it doesnt matter in this case
Speaking of reanimate with discard, “how good is reanimate in every card game” would be a nice video to showcase all the different strategies. I enjoy the Bloomburrow Golgari food in Magic for all the value you can get.
By reanimate, you mean reviving a card?
Funny how this comes out the day after Rata puts out Archetype Archive Dark World
@@plastictrumpet6862 The gift of Prophecy strikes agaim
as to add on for the discard section in pokemon, there was an absolutely overpowered card that defined discard decks: an exeggcute. it has 30 hp and a measly 2 energy attack for 20 damage. so what made the card meta defining? it's ability propagation. if the card enters the discard pile, you can put it in your hand. this may not sound much but it enabled so much decks. for example, there was a card called zoroark gx that had an ability to discard a card in your hand in order to draw 2 cards. if you discarded the exeggcute, the ability basically has no cost whatsoever!
Same with Night Assailant in Yugioh.
In Gwent discard is a little bit problematic. Discard exists as one of the Skellige's archetypes. It is generally solid and strong, allowing extreme tempo plays with cards like Coral (6 power, 8 provision, Zeal, order: draw a card, then discard a card. Whenever you discard a card, deal 2 to a random enemy), Birna Bran (6 8 deploy: draw up to 2 cards, then discard as many cards), Morkvarg (when this unit enters your graveyard during your turn, summon it to your melee row and grant it doomed), and Tuirseach Skirmisher (4 5 when I'm discarded, summon me to your melee row). The real problem begins with Magic Compass, which is a deck's wincon. I won't explain how the compass works, but the problem is: at 10 provision it is underwhelming and can only be played in a dedicated discard deck, at 9 provision it enters the Golden Nekker club, and the Golden Nekker is just the perfect match for this card. This is what happened during the very first gwentfinity vote: Compass was buffed to 9 provision and Nekker-Pirates took it's place as a tier-1 deck.
If you are interested: Magic Compass: "Echo. Look at the top 3 cards of your deck. Play 1 of them and move other 2 to your graveyard. If there are fewer than 3 cards in your deck, spawn and play a legendary card from your faction, that wasn't in your starting deck'. Was painfully nerfed to a whole of 12 provision.
Golden Nekker: if your deck has no cards that cost 10 or more play the top unit, top spell and top artifact from your deck.
One of my favorite cards in all of card games is the Magic card One With Nothing. It is a terrible card whose only effect is Discard your hand. It was purposefully designed to see if players could make something interesting out such a bad effect, and that is why I love it so much. It is a testament to always finding new and unique ways of thinking about design.
@@alexrivera5747 Meanwhile, Yugioh has a whole deck based around hand nuking yourself.
I have nothing to add but to say these videos are all very well done and as a card game enjoyers it’s very entertaining and insightful to watch - keep making these videos! 🎉
I think the most interesting thing about Pokémon is how the game from 2007-2010 was more based around cycling cards in and out of the deck with Claydol Cosmic Power. There were only a few decks like Gyarados from that time period that relied on discard effects and the discard synergy at the time was not nearly as strong as cards like Professor Juniper and Ultra Ball which began being printed in 2011 and 2012, which saw the transition to a much simpler game
Imagine seeing you here! What's up whimsicast 😂
you should probably have mentioned that Yu-Gi-Oh also differentiates between discarding for cost and discarded by effect, discarding for cost won't trigger the Dark World archetype
Im suprised he didnt mention Tearlaments which are very recent and need to be discarded by effect. If you use Super Poly and discard Havnis for cost nothing happens.
This is for opponent
I could have but it felt a bit too in the weeds compared to examples I used in other card games.
I've said it before and I'll say it again, you're getting better with every video!
In Keyforge, discarding cards isn't even a cost; it's often a huge benefit. Since at the end of each turn you draw back up to 6, you can discard cards you don't need to hopefully draw into something more useful, or dig through your deck for specific cards. Add in Scrap effects, where cards give you an additional benefit for discarding them, and the 'haunted' keyword, where you get bonuses for having 10 or more cards in your discard pile, and you get even _more_ value.
The card Recklessness has each player discard 3 random cards and then draw 3 new cards and is considered to be very strong, as you can potentially draw into more cards that you can use while also having a chance at disrupting your opponent's plans.
I usually play shadowverse which is similar to hearthstone.
In this game there are discard cards in every class but only two can take advantage of this mechanic:
The first is dragoncraft which is a ramp-combo oriented discard deck; the second one is bloodcraft which is an aggro that benefits from having no card in hand.
I've been watching you since your first video and I just want to say that I really enjoy the comparison videos between the different card games
Another cool trivia from mtg is that old-timey dredge decks would sometime "cheat" a discard effect by deliberately going second, not playing anything for turn and then being forced to discard down to 7. This allowed them to completely circumvent even the game's mana system and build a deck with 0 lands.
Oooo another fun video! Im curious what a 'How good are alternative win conditions' video would look like because i dont even know if Magic or Pokemon have those kind or 'if X you win the game' style effects
They do, though there's only exactly 3 alt win cons in pokemon (they're all unown), 2 of them are banned, the 3rd one relies on your opponent.
@@dudono1744 There's also Lost World Stadium.
@@MEW-hn2dn magic has several, ranging from solid gameplan to weird gimmicks you pull off once with your friends in a very casual goofing off game, they're not ordered:
- if your deck is basically empty you win (thassa's oracle, legal in most formats)
- if you would lose the game from drawing from an empty library, you win instead (several cards, there's a jace that does this, as well as an enchantment, very similar general gameplan as the first (get rid of your entire fucking deck ASAP and win the game))
- approach of the second sun (if you cast a second second sun from hand you win, otherwise you put second sun back in your deck 7 from the top and gain 7 life)
- if this card has 100 counters on it you win, you can pay X mana to put X counters on it (helix pinnacle, also has protection that makes it hard to dislodge, best with counter doublers)
- control 10 or more "gate" lands (maze's end)
- triskaidekaphile, have 13 cards in hand at the beginning of your turn, also turns off maximum hand size
- start your turn at 1 life with this card out (near death experience)
- if there are 20 or more creatures in your graveyard at the start of your turn, you win (mortal combat)
- have a copy of this card in hand, exile, graveyard and on the field (hedron alignment)
- you control 20 or more artifacts / 10 or more treasures at the start of your turn (hellkite tyrant, revel in riches)
- this card has 20 counters on it (simic ascendancy)
- you have more than 50 life at the start of turn (test of endurance)
- have more than 200 cards remaining in your deck at the beginning of your turn (battle of wits)
- control 4 of a specific guy at the start of your turn (biovisionary)
- have won 10 coinflips in a game and get to the start of your turn (chance encounter)
- make your opponent lose the game on the spot (door to nothingness, 5 generic mana artifact that enters tapped, for double of each color mana, tap, and sacrifice: target opponent loses the game)
there's more, you can look through all of them on scryfall with "otag:alternate-win-condition"
@@dudono1744 there have been 6 alt win conditions in Pokemon (and 1 instant lose condition)
the 3 unown, 1 unknown V, Lost World, and a slowbro. and the lose condition was from slowbro.
Unown: Damage (banned); if your bench has 66dmg counters, you win
Unown: Hand (banned); if you have 35 cards in hand, you win
Unown: Lost; if opponent has 12+ supporters in lost zone, you win
Unown V: 3(c) attack; if you have 1 prize remaining, you win
Slowbro: 3(c) attack; if you have 1 prize remaining, you win
Lost World (pre expanded format): if player's opponent has 6 pkmn in lost zone, player wins
then the lose condition:
slowbro: 1(w)2(c) attack; if you flip 3 tails, you lose
@@alexrivera5747 oopsie
13:07 Building a "Discard Deck" is one of Slay the Spire's most iconic strategies.
The Silent (one of the 4 characters in the game) can draft many cards with discard synergies as she progresses through the game. Some discard effects allow you to draw more cards, get more energy to play said cards, or replace your hand with 0-cost attacks. And since you can cycle through your entire deck many times in one battle, you can end up with some crazy combos/infinites that wouldn't work in a PvP game.
I also wanna add as a Pokemon TCG player that alot of decks use the graveyard as a second hand or to store cards only to retrive them with cards like Lugia EX, Night Stretcher and most of the time having cards in the GY is acutally an advantage.
Its to the point that in X and Y we had a card called "Team Flare battle compressor" that discarded 3 and it was like one of the best cards in the format and now we have an Ace Spec (that you can only have one of per deck) called "Brilliant Mixer" that Discards 5 and it sees alot of use.
So yeah, Discarding in Pokemon is one of the best effects in the game
Btw love your videos ❤
Just wanted to say I love the content brother, hope you keep going ✊️
In addition to discarding (sending to GY), YuGiOh has also banishing and Pokémon has the Lost Zone.
Are there similar concepts in Magic and Hearthstone?
Magic has Exile.
@@Xernisfy magic has exile, which is similar to banish in yugioh except there's only 3-4 cards I can think of that either want to be exiled, or can recur things from exile. It's a very unreachable zone which makes exile removal significantly better than banishing removal in yugioh.
Magic's exile and PTCG's Lost Zone remains an unreachable place to this day, while YGO's Banishment (yes it has a name now) is literally a second graveyard (while graveyard itself is a second hand, or a third if you consider the extra deck.)
Hearthstone is a little tricky because it doesn't really have an accessible graveyard like most other TCGs. So, the line between graveyard and banishing is thinner than in other games. There are a few effects that are along the lines of "Resurrect a friendly minion that died this game" but they are usually random (Resurrect) or only chosen between a few different non-specific minions that died (Eternal Servitude). Otherwise, the graveyard/resurrect pool is invisible and inaccessible.
There are a couple of effects that can prevent a minion from being added to the resurrect pool such as transform (Polymorph, Hex) and remove (Life Sentence, Reno Lone Ranger). In addition, they also act as ways to prevent Deathrattle (on death) effects. Those are about the closest thing to banishing that Hearthstone has.
EDIT: Also forgot to mention that Hearthstone's discard mechanic functions as a banish, NOT an addition to the graveyard. A discarded card is essentially lost forever.
@@ItsPForPea it isn't really, a lot of decks can't play under a card like shifter or just skip using the graveyard altogether, there are decks that make a lot of use of banishes cards but its not most of them, loads treat a card being banished as more or less unrecoverable.
Always love the SodaTCG breakdowns of TCG game mechanics. What do you think of discarding cards & using the discard pile as a toolkit as a defining feature of one of the main factions in a TCG?
I like the way discard plays in yu-gi-oh! I think it meshes really nicely with the more graveyard focus strategies in the game. It's cool to see it compared to magic or hearthstone where discard is more of it's own strategy.
@@SodaTCG Thanks for the reply! My YGO experience is limited, but a buddy introduced me to the 5Ds era and I enjoyed the GY plays that I tried.
I now you don't speak about but in marvel snap discard is a whole theme of cards that's works similarity to hearthstone
Yeah
Marvel SNAP discard is very fun and has a nice amount of variance
@@tonfok2 Discard works really well in Snap because of the hard turn limit, so it's nice to get extra out of the cards you wouldn't have had time to play.
Discarding is very strong in Vampire: The Eternal Struggle. In VtES, you have a fixed hand size: you draw to replace immediately after playing any card. So discarding lets you draw a new card without having to play a card that you might not meet the requirements for or which might take one of your limited number of actions to use. It's even more powerful than, say, card draw in Magic.
Cool video, but I think you're underestimating just how broken discarding can be in Yu-Gi-Oh Duel Monsters... Like, for real, the modern meta simply converges around using your GY as an extra fuel tank
I only recently started playing pokemon live and I gotta say that Gholdengo ex it's one of the most fun uses of discard mechanics that I have ever seen in game.
The whole cycle of: discard like 5 o 6 energy, knock out something, find a way to put the energy back in hand, discard, repeat, I've just had a blast with it.
PD: If anyone knows of another similar deck to that one, I would love to hear about it.
@lucasromay1213 There is a Garbodor with the same attack except you discard tools instead of Energy.
In expanded there is Tsureena V, that drops your bench to do damage (20+ 40 each), but expanded has more deep draw and sky field/area zero under depths, so you can drop 7 Pokemon a turn (max 300), Crobat v draw to 6, Dedenne dump hand draw to 6, Skwquakabilly ex and all the supports as well, plus their is a Giratina that comes back from discard and drops damage counters on the opponent's Pokemon to fix math on any thing other 300, the downside is its actually easier to deck out turn 3 then win if you get greedy. Really fun deck.
Then Tool drop decks, which as implied run multiple tool items to discard from field or hand (depends on the attacker) and rams up, sadly never really been that good as tools don't help draw. hopefully we might get a better times multiplier in the future to make up for it, but they can be a fun rogue option.
Magcargo ex is discount Gholdengo, it's easier to do 280 as night academy can place a Energy to discard from your deck and team star grunt can place a energy from your Op to their top deck, to do 420, but it's 3 attack cost is just to high to realistically chain together, very fun when it works, sadly it rarely will in standard. It's better in the expanded format as "welder" attaches 2 fire from hand and basin/turn attachment isn't hard to chain.
United wings/lost March style decks, all have the same attack that ramps in damage by the number of Pokemon with the attack in the discard pile, really good if the types included are strong against the meta decks.
The thing with Yugioh is the differentiation between "discard for cost" and "discard for effect." Dark World monsters do *not* work if they're discard for cost, such as with Super Polymerization, while Danger! and Fabled monsters do benefit from being discarded for cost.
Soul fire and Doomguard saw a lotttt of play in the early days of HS. Sure it was a feels bad when you discarded your other Soulfire and missed lethal, but that usually didn’t happen so getting crazy amounts of damage for free was really good.
Recently hearthstone has had cards where you get to choose what you discard
6:45 No, Beige doesn't trigger to revive itself when being discarded, because the dark world monsters only activate (mandatory btw) when being discarded for the effect-part of an effect (like the dangers) not when discarded for the cost to activate an effect (like in super-poly). Everything before the Semicolon is costs and chosing targets - it doesn't count as the effect. (That's why Mathmech Circular has been banned, because he puts a card from the deck into the grave for cost, which means, it happens on activation, BEFORE you ask your opponent, if they want to negate the rest of the of effect.)
Also every Yu-Gi-Oh player remembers that the discard for super-poly was cost - not effect, because Verte Anaconda (when still allowed) replaced the cost by paying 2000 life points instead of the discard.
Great video
Now that were getting to now that youre covering discards, I guess the next topic could be milling cards, either the opponents or your own.
Can’t wait for the mill deck !
7:32 What is this temptress doing in my Christian children's game? How can I focus when something like that is on my screen?
In LoR discard is quite good. First of all, the cards are of no value, compared for example to Hearthstone where you have legendaries and stuff. Second of all, there are quite a lot cards, that generate garbage cards, for example a Gift Giver - 1 mana 1/2 for Targon "When I'm summoned, create a gem in hand" and gem is just heal an ally 1 and give it +1 power, so you can use it as a fuel for Spacey Sketcher or Sump dredger to get an actual card. Last but not least, discard archetypes are generally pretty strong, still remember the first 3 top-tier decks of Rising Tides: Ezreal-Karma spell bs, Quinn-MF scouts and Draven-Jinx discard aggro.
What do you mean by "the cards are of no value"?
@fernandobanda5734 you can have 3 copies of each card in your deck. There is no real rarity or something that would make some cards slightly better than others. So you don't really care which card to discard, if you need an effect (however there are premium discard fuel cards like jury-rig and flame chompers).
Rumble/Draven was probably my favorite deck i've ever played in LoR. More midrange than Jinx, but Rumble let you dump a bunch of cards into him to be a beefy threat
@@neveralive8550 But you're not guaranteed to draw the rest, and you're very incentivized to curve out. I don't think understand why normal cards are less valuable just because they aren't unique.
Discarding is constant in One Piece. Characters with counter can add 1k or 2k power to a defending character or leader. This constant shapes combat in One Piece where if you want to ensure attacks to go through, hitting for target's powe + 2k ensures that blocking will either require 2 discards or the use of a counter event which they would have to leave Don (the pay resource) open to cast, with the exception of 0 cost events that have some other cost like discarding or other alt cost
One piece has only delved into recursion/animating via a recent black deck/leader and it was the most busted thing that set
Idea for a video: how good are universal searchers (Sangan, Witch)
Discard cards have seen play in standard Hearthstone a few times and every time it's when the discard cards in standard are non-random lol
What about cards that force your opponent to discard? Like Thoughtseize, Duress, Hymn to Tourach, etc. Not sure if those exist in the other card games though, I only know Magic.
Check out my video on hand attack! It goes into that topic.
is there a reason you didnt talk about the differences of rummaging ( discard before draw) vs looting (draw before discard) effects?
also have you done a video on hand hate? thoughtsieze, iok, duress from mtg being examples
I did do i video on hand attack yes! Didn't mention rummage vs loot because it felt rather minor compared to the overall point I was trying to make.
The first time I hit legend in hearthstone was playing discolock before tome tampering got banned. Discarding your entire hand for only 3 mana was insanely broken and basically let you play every card in your hand for no mana
Ah yes the classic discarding Valgatoth/Omniscient to bring it back from graveyard at turn 4
one thing you forgot to mention about pokemon is that it is very VERY hard to get cards back from your discard pile. The contrast between yugioh and pokemon is kinda funny. In yugioh your discard is basically your second hand. Meanwhile in pokemon you'll be very happy if you can recover even 1 card from there. (like for Lugia you ONLY want archeops in your discard pile, or gardevoir ex where you ONLY want energy cards in your discard, because the rest of the cards are very hard to recover. Regidrago is an exception tho, regidrago is busted and can fetch anything)
im sorry but discard is completely broken in hearthstone?? discard is a huge benefit and pushed discolock to being by far the best archetype in wild for an incredibly long time
Yeah only for wild though. Never been great in standard.
@@SodaTCG yes but discard is still considered a benefit in standard regardless, plus sludge warlock was warping the game a few expacs ago
Kind of sad that you don't like Snap I feel like discard being an entire archetype with Over 20 different card abilities some good some bad would do well in this video
He has a big blind spot with Marvel SNAP since he admitted he feels as a card game player he’s the prime audience, when in reality his experience with other card games leaves him with expectations for how things “should” work without accounting for massive differences (for instance, mulligans and the SNAP system)
can you plz make a vid about how good MİLL decks in each game I'm prety intrested
Also in yugioh because there is no manasystem, discarding is quite a ballance. But the real fun begins when discarding turns into benefit, just like what hearthstone did with those helpers.
For video idea: how goods are towerse monsters. I don’t know if every cardgame have ones so I would be happy to watch a comparison
What are doverse?
My new phone and the different screensensity
It supposed to be towerse lol
@@Throrma What is towerse?
@@Mardshima89 its a yugioh specific community term for a boss monster that is incredibly difficult to interact with or remove makign it very hard to take down if not nearly impossible being only vulnerable to very niche forms of interactions that is likely not available in the majority of decks
they typically have effects that makes them immune to a wide variety of removal options including removal by combat to a degree too but bascially their very presence “towers” over everything else on the field standing out immediately and their very presence can automatically shift the tempo or even just the flow of the game to the favor of its user
the term itself fittingly originated from a monster called Apoqliphort *Towers* which is regarded as the first real tower monster the game saw as its immune to all spell/trap cards including even the effects of monsters with lower lvl when itself which is already a very high lvl 10 and on top of this it also lowers all opponent’s monster’s stats by 500 too so despite having the standard 3000 atk stat it was effectively 3500 making it so even trying to destroy it by battle because is more or less immune to everything was a greater endeavor then it shouldve been
Towers are monsters that are very hard to take out. The name comes from the Yugioh card "Apoqliphort Towers".
I think Hearthstone gets a bit of a bad rap. There are definitely some decks that use discarding to their advantage, and it can be a really strategic part of the game. It's not just about losing random cards, it's about making smart choices! Think about decks like Handlock or Discard Warlock in Wild - they're super strong and rely heavily on discarding to fuel their strategies.
I cant belive you did a whole video on discard in TCGs without mentioning mtg's most enigmatic card, One With Nothing.
Where Tearlaments at tho
ur dunce
Hello, could i suggest a change on ur videos? I like ur content, but ill preffer a black screen on the back rather than a white (for sleeping pourposes hehe)
In my Card game I equate discard as generally being equal to “pay three life” (my card game as a life total of 15-20 depends on who’s going first or second)
For example a Level2 9/9 Monster that costs 3 life and a Level2 9/9 that costs a discard in my eyes are equivalent
Now even without context of my card game this doesn’t make much sense, wouldn’t you almost ALWAYS want to put the “pay life” card in your deck? And you’d be right with one exception. Theres an entire Banner (Banners basically being like Colors in MTG, you kind of only play Cards that are the same Color/Banner) who’s main gimmick is having effects that only trigger when you have 2 or less cards in your hand
ENTER - If you have 2 or less Cards in your hand do _____
Spell - Gain 3 life, then if you have 2 or less Cards in your hand Draw 1
Etc etc etc. and similar to Magic every Banner has dozens of ‘unique’ gimmicks to them but there’s always the main ones that they are all known for. 2 or less cards in hand just happens to be the main gimmick of the “Warrior Banner”
But, the discard part becomes unusable if your hand is empty
@ Completely True, but the second ‘gimmick’ of Warriors does help elevate this problem
SoulLinkX is a key word that is found pretty often on Warrior monsters and it’s “Once Per Turn if this Monster is destroyed, you may pay X life and put it back on the field” X is almost always either 1,2, or 3
So even once you’ve lost all the cards in your hand, it’s still gonna take awhile before you’ve also lost the cards on your field
Warrior decks also tend to be aggressive so even if you lose all the cards in your hand it doesn’t really matter if your opponent is dead right?
@@gabrielsalahi3656 Good thing it's a once per turn, because it could get out of hand very quickly, especially if you make a card that lets you discard any number of cards to gain life.
And the nature of being handless forces an aggressive play patern, since "keeping gas for later" straight up isn't an option. Which happens to be exactly what Infernity (a yugioh deck that relies on having an empty hand) did.
@ Yes, I learned the hard way that letting SoulLink not be a OPT isn’t exactly good design 😅
I’ve been working on this same game for a little over 6 years and it’s basically finished….except for art because art is very VERY expensive
Just trying to save up until I can hire some professional artists
the title is misleading, discarding your own cards is just a small part of discard. in mtg most discard cards affect the opponents.
Well, this is 2 entirely different things
@dudono1744 exactly
@dudono1744 and every time we talk about a discard deck in mtg it’s never self discard.
Yeah I made a video on hand attack cards that goes into enemy discard more. Its tough because other games don't have discard the same way magic does so the nomenclature is mixed.
Super Polymerization would not trigger Beiige.
Talking about discarding in yugioh but not mentioning the most broken deck that uses the graveyard a lot, tearlaments, this could have been a discussion on how stupid discarding cards for that deck is in its strongest power
Tear is a mill deck
Sheiren discard Agido....response?
Chain Dshifter
Dispairge.
We got agido agidooooo
With all this knoweldge you should defo make a card game PLS
How good is discard? Which card do you mean specifically? 😂😂😂
Blox cards. Very very good and kinda main mechanic???
Let me guess, discard is broken in Yu-Gi-Oh 😂
Everything is busted in Ygo
depends on what you’re discarding, not every deck benefits from reckless or uninhibited dumping of cards into the grave and most of the time the deck is very specific on what they would discard rather then just any card
Superpoly discards for cost, not effect so it doesn't work for most discard cards
Discard? Dis card is good
Me when darkworld
Inb4 Yugoh players calling it handloop despite not looping🤦
Yeah, handloop and handrip gets mixed up these days.
breathe
This video needs the word outlet after discard, this is not a good video title
I agree, he only talked about discarding your own cards, which is just a very small part of discarding cards.