The Battle of Samar (Alternate History) - Bring on the Battleships!
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 26 ก.ย. 2024
- We know what happened when Centre Force tangled with Taffy 3, but what if Taffy 3 was off elsewhere and the old battleships of Admiral Kinkaid's group were present instead?
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Pinned post for Q&A :)
12 14” standard class vs 8 16” standard class in 1920, 1930, 1940 and 1945.
Are u gonna do a video on how to pronounce japanese ship names? If you are, me and my friends may be able to help you?
Drydock Q&A
If the High Seas Fleet was allowed to remain in German hands after World War One, how would it have changed German naval strategy and naval construction during the interwar years and World War Two?
How would it be affected by the Washington and London naval treaties?
What would have happened if the Cumberland had taken part in the battle of the river plate as if i'm not mistaken she was meant to be with force H but was refitting i imagine that Exeter would be quite happy to have another cruiser to help her if only because shes not going to be the only one being shot at quite so much
Considering the economic Situation of Britain after the 1. World war, what do you think would happen to the ships of the Kriegsmarine, if they hadn't been destroyed by their crew? I can't quite imagine the whole fleet going to the scrappyard
"Sure, there were six yankee battleships we didn't expect to find here, but thank GOD the Johnston is nowhere to be seen....."
The Japanese were so scared of the USS Johnston they felt it necessary to send the Yamato to sink her!
@@DarthAverage I heard the USS Johnston had to have a gun turret removed to accommodate the extra displacement of the Captains giant solid steel balls😂
Damm son where'd you find that?
New England has their own battleships?
ikr? As a person from the South, it's always amusing to go overseas and be told I am a "yankee" :-D
Yamato heavy: I Fear no man, but that thing... *nervously looks back and forth* It scares me.
*silhouette of the USS Johnston zooms back and forth in the background making multiple 180 degree turns while emitting Ork WAAAAGGHH sound effects*
You, Sir, made my day. Never underestimate the power of the orks with a destroyer.
Eh, Taffy 3 had something more powerful than mere battlelust and WAAAAAGH. It had the pure, and complete spite of humans placed with their back to the wall and iron resolve.
@@aquila4460 The sheer stubborn resolve of a man in command of about 270 men and a ship tasked with defending 200,000 American soldiers. Maybe thinking something like "You can shell my countrymen when you have blown my ship out from under my firmly planted feet!". It wasn't just their backs to the wall, it was the invasion force that was depending on them and they were all that was there to protect them.
MORE DAKKA!!!!
The American force would still have massive air cover during daylight, the Japanese battle line would be mess based on their prior experience with air attack earlier.
The Fletchers basically become a swarm of angry bees no matter how this battle goes.
Not the bees!
A sea FILLED with torpedoes....
biscuitninja
If only Kamchatka were there to see it...
Bees, hell. MURDER HORNETS!
@@biscuitninja Mark 14's? because if so...
"Never ever underestimate the firepower of an almighty swarm of angry Fletchers" - Drach
This has become a standard quote in my family.
lmao when you start listing off the American Destroyers *THE RIDE NEVER ENDS*
"Dad I want to get off the ride"
And HMAS Arunta, as a very angry Aussie exclamation point.
I want to get off of Mr. Fletcher’s Wild Ride!
I want to get off of Mr. Fletcher’s Wild Ride!
I WANT TO GET OFF OF MR. FLETCHER’S WILD RIDE!
Imagine Admiral Kurita's face when he saw that CRAZY Train headed his way.
27 seconds listing names.
I like the fact that, basically, the whole battle can be summarized by *angry Fletcher noises*.
There is a reason countries dont build battleships anymore but instead have fleets full of fleet destroyers.
Missiles and submarines are pretty strong incentives to have light cruisers or fleet destroyers ig aircraft weren't persuasive enough.
Fletchers are like honeybees of the sea. Sea bees, if you will. Mess with them or their hive, angy Fletcher noises ensue.
"Hello Japanese battleships, dodge this!"
Now that is going down as one of my favorites from this channels wealth of quotes.
The Slade
27:03 for future enjoyment
26:00 " _You_ know what.. *_ALL_* the Destroyers Attack..! " and what follows is glorious, along with "Angry Swarm of Fletchers"
@@bskorupk NOT THE FLETCHERS!!!!!!!!
@@treeshakertucker5840 Always a problem for me as my dog is called Fletcher!
DODGE!!! Why does everything with Japan have to turn into an anime memes?
This was a great discussion of the alternative outcomes. I suspect this was the last battle the Japanese would have had any chance of winning, as long as winning means "we sunk more ships that you did". In terms of the overall outcome of the war, the shipyards were pouring out huge numbers of the Fletcher class and their bigger and more dangerous brothers, the Sumner and Gearing classes. Vast numbers of Cleveland light and Baltimore heavy cruisers were still coming down the ways, not to mention the fearsome Iowa class. US carriers, from escort to fleet types, were also being commissioned and stationed in the Pacific, so any Japanese warship could count on meeting not only generally superior US surface ships but being swarmed by hundreds of US aircraft.
As a final blow, the British Pacific Fleet shows up in January, 1945 with four more modern battleships, six fleet carriers, fifteen light carriers, and eleven excellent cruisers. This doesn't even take into account all the other smaller ships. The combined US and British logistic trains meant almost any ship damaged in battle could either be put back in service in a few days or made ready to sail to a rear repair area for heavier work. Japanese ships damaged really depended on whatever a crew could scrounge for repair work, all the while trying to remain camouflaged and dodging constant air attacks. By early 1945, very few ships were able to run the gauntlet of US subs to get back to mainland dockyards, and most of those they did were further damaged or sunk by allied air attacks. One can only wonder about the state of morale of many Japanese sailors in 1945. The Japanese were well and truly stuffed long before the events of August, 1945.
Two minor quibbles...
First, if Taffy 3 was sufficient to make the Japanese force turn around, a larger U.S. force was sufficient to make the Japanese force turn around-all other things being equal. The alternative scenario requires the Japanese commander’s approach to be different, namely, far more aggressive to the point of risking his entire force. The attitude actually displayed wasn’t just a matter of competence but involved being aware of what it would mean to lose the entire force that day. It reminds me of the pressure on Jellicoe, who couldn’t win the war in a day but could lose it in a day. Perhaps we should expect the Japanese commander to turn around as losses started to mount, just as happened in real life. Less interesting than modeling the slugfest, but probably more realistic.
And the other quibble: no US planes. By this point in the war the Japanese Navy had no choice but to slug it out using surface guns, but the U.S. Navy always had air support lined up. The longer the battle lasted, the more likely that U.S. planes would have tipped the balance no matter how the surface battle was playing out.
@@dogofthedesert6642 Good points. I think Drach was just modeling the slugfest, but, even with Taffy 3, it was the aircraft from the escort carriers of Taffy 1 and 2, responding to the calls for help from Taffy 3, and their near suicidal attacks, that helped convince Kurita he was under attack by the main US fleet. It was the aggressiveness of the DD's and DE's that helped convince Kurita that he was under attack by cruisers of the main US fleet and the battleships would be just over the horizon. While the US had technological advantages, it was the training, morale, and fighting spirit of the USN that turned that battle. Kurita was trying not to lose the war in a day while the men and ships he was opposing fought like they were trying to win it in a day. Had Kurita actually been opposed by the entire force of Admiral Oldendorf, the slaughter would have been horrific.
Was about to write your first point, but you saved me the trouble. Drachinifel did address it by saying the simulation assumed a willingness to fight that the Japanese commander, Kurita, did not actually show (See 15:00). I get that the goal was to get to the big gun fight, no matter how many historical counterfactuals, but this felt to me like one hand wave too many.
We know how the battle and war turns out but in real time the men on these ships felt and were encouraged to think that THIS battle and THEIR ships were fighting for lives and fighting for their country . Across the board every one felt this was do or die and no way out .Knowing that the human drama on these ships was unbelievable but to get a real picture and sense of the ACTUAL battle
And more and more forward repair capacity was being brought to the front, such as portable dry docks. The Japanese simply did not have the logistical capacity to maintain the war.
Swarm of angry Fletchers. Think I will use that in conversation.
I second that
Remember the Japanese haven't had gunnery training a proper maintenance on that fire control systems for a year. That's why they couldn't hit anything.
@@jamesricker3997 yeah and they were constantly maneuvering to avoid the air attacks from the escort carriers
“I fear no man... but those THINGS”
*closeup of a group of Fletchers*
“They scare me”
I'm new to all this, why we're the Fletchers so good and feared? If anyone doesn't mind telling me cheers ☠️💀
Fletcher's: Flood the sea with wall of skills, Falalalala-lalalala!
[TORPEDOBEATS INTENSIFY]
@@nicholas209 *DEJA VU*
'Tis the season to poke holes, falalalala lalalala.
My college professor back in 1968 was a LT on the admiral's staff of Taffy 3. When I asked him what the reaction was when the pagoda masts were spotted. He chuckled and said, "The head did a land office business." More than that, I could get no comment.
what does that mean, the head did a land office business
It implies there was a mad rush (like gold miners filing mine claims in the government land office) to use the bathrooms (called head on a ship).
David Rowley everyone shit their pants.
A good day to wear the brown pants!
@@species3167 that guy knows what’s up, he’s wearing the brown pants
Taffy 3 Vs Southern Force? That would only give the Johnston a free BB kill.
Would they go for the kill or would Commander Evans be seen proudly standing on the bridge of the Fuso, after his crew swarmed the ship?
@@JediKnight19852002 I think they would go for the kill, It's the Fuso and Yamashiro we are talking about so they probably eat the entire salvo of torpedoes and blow up.
That said, I would pay good money to see Evans leading any kind of boarding action.
@@santiago5388 hah, were sailors even trained in boarding actions by this point? this isn't nelson's royal navy we're talking about, and i doubt a ship as small as a fletcher would carry a contingent of marines.
oldfrend
There were WWII boarding actions.
And if Samar tells us anything, Evans was great at improvising.
@@JediKnight19852002 Whilst waving a cutlass screaming "I shall not be trifled with ".
Two comments:
1. When I was running cruiser-destroyer battles in my college wargames club, I used to rate Brooklyns and Clevelands as heavy cruisers for game-balance purposes, and it came out about right.
2. There's one other alternate Samar scenario you should think about: Center Force vs. the fast battleships of TF34.
Second the TF34 scenario. Assume Halsey stayed on the New Jersey and took it with the carriers: That leaves the highly regarded Admiral Lee on Washington, with Alabama, Iowa, Massachusetts, South Dakota, and say... five cruisers and 14 destroyers for company. How does that force stack up against the Yamato and friends?
@@treyhelms5282 - They also had the New Jersey so the same number of battleships as this scenario for the Americans, two fewer cruisers, and fewer destroyers, but those 6 battleships are modern battleships. Unless the pre-battleship battle goes heavily in Japan's favor and then they are able to get a good long lance attack against the American BB's putting a couple out of action, I think the Americans stuff the Japanese in the main line of battle action. They would IMO still have the battleship advantage even if Musashi had made it.
@@timwf11b Yeah, I'm thinking since Halsey and his staff were aboard the New Jersey, he would take her with the carriers. (the added AAA and surface action insurance could be a bonus)
@@treyhelms5282 And why a "carrier admiral" was flying his flag in a BB has always puzzled me. Presumably, New Jersey had lavish flag accommodations.
@@erichammer2751 Yeah, maybe Drach or someone else really knowledgeable knows. Dunno what criteria admirals choose their flagships? Like Halsey on NJ, and Kurita on Atago?
27:10 LUL! Truth 2019 - "Never ever underestimate the firepower of an almighty swarm of angry Fletchers."
The mad man actually did it.
Love battle reports. I like this format more than the last one as it really goes through the different possibilities better.
I like this style of videos, however, I adore the Texel-style. It makes for a far better video, especially if you do the outtakes at the end
I like both they both have their place. When you have one that is so one sided then yes the Texal style of video is great. Basically, let the wargame outcome determine the style of video.
Both styles are good. I slightly prefer this style, as it focusses more on the possibilities, instead of one scenario.
7th fleet sends out a distress call the Johnston comes charging down “come here boy”
Don’t forget the Sammie B following the Johnston in, 😂
Ryan Grider yeah
7th fleet sends out a distress call, the Johnston and Samuel B. Roberts say hold my beer. This won't take long.
@@ramal5708 could you imagine if the crews of the Samuel B Roberts and the Johnston go for boarding one of the Japanese Battleships like it's the days of the Ships of the Line, them steaming into Pearl Harbor having captured a Japanese battlewagon
F77k i am out here!!
Favourite line : “here's 250 torpedoes dodge that” , very good in depth look at a complex scenario & another great video . Keep up the good work , I enjoy the classic British humor with your vids.
Which format to use probably depends on how you and your wargaming friends determine the battle is likely to go down. If the playtests show generally similar outcomes then a detailed timeline format would be the way to go. In cases like this one, where the possible outcomes are too widely varied for a single outcome to be determined, a walkthrough like this one discussing the various game-breakers and workable tactics for each side to use to win works better.
It also keeps these videos from getting to formulaic and (if the term can ever be applied to talking about battleships doing their thing) boring...
I like how many of the scenarios end with the opposing fleet being devoured by angry Fletchers.
14:05 America: Yamato Op plz nerf 14:22 Japan: Radar and Smoke op plz nerf
Your typical WoWs match.
Lol
division with T5 lolz
*Kremlin enters game and throws Premium Russkie Vodka at everybody thus ending game*
That pfp... you have good tastes.
Yamato commander: "Oh hai Standard battleships, welcome to dinner!" Admiral Kurita: "Where's the invasion fleet. Hang on, we didn't expect this."
"Never underestimate a swarm of angry Fletchers"
Just three DDs and an escort held 'em off in reality; a swarm would be Hell.
Yamato would have died there instead of heading towards Okinawa.
Also it really seemed like you were struggling to give the IJN a fighting chance. Especially concerning the gunnery; your video about Samar last week mentioned specifically that optics like the ones the Japanese relied on weren't as useful in maneuvering and so they tended to more or less plod on or make grand, broad sweeps, while American ships with their fire control systems and radar would be more free to throw off the aim of the enemy ships with maneuvers while simultaneously keeping up more accurate return fire. Granted, the 21-knots of the Standard BBs would have not been as effective at that, but it's still something I don't recall you mentioning here.
Plus there's also the question of what if the American recognized that the Yamato was the biggest threat and concentrated fire on her early-on to take her out, or at least render her ineffective? 14" and 16" might not be enough to sink her, but throw enough firepower at the superstructure and those vaunted optics of the Yamato won't be seeing enough to aim those overcompensating guns. I mean, you can't look through optics that are sitting on the deck because the superstructure supporting them was blasted away. And that's not even taking into account Kurita's half-assed direction of the battle.
Granted, it'd be bloody on both sides; no way that the old battlewagons would have gotten away Scot-free, nor the cruisers, but the ending really isn't very likely to be anything but "Japan loses" unless you postulate some really big ifs.
If I was in charge of the US I don't see why you would not try the destroyer swarm. You have so many and it gives you plenty of time to get the larger ships organized I don't see why that would not be what is done.
The japanese wouldn’t even have tried to fight. The moment they encounter the US force, they would have tried to withdraw and the US DD’s would have bumrushed them to try to prevent them from making it out alive.
There was also the fact that he somehow inserted Takao and Myoko into the Japanese heavy cruiser force when both ships had actually turned back to port due to damage by that time. No idea how no one caught that.
@TJ Bowman All those destroyers would be making smoke all the while the fire control systems would remain locked on and tracking the targets, 5" guns blazing and reading off range and heading to the torpedo fire control computer. It would have been glorious!
it wasn't JUST the dds that turned kurita back. i'd argue it was at least half the constant aircraft harassment, even though most of the actual damage was due to the dds. the taffies were composed of 16 CVEs and 400 aircraft, similar in number to the pearl harbor strike force. in the fog of war kurita probably couldn't accurately assess the source of all his damage suffered, but with that many planes constantly buzzing him it was completely reasonable for him to assume there were fleet carriers in the area. it was an underrated fact of american industrial might that by this time in the war a fleet of american escort carriers could put up an air attack bigger than a group of japanese fleet carriers.
of course the biggest reason for his turning back was his own incompetence, but the planes were a large part of what scared him off.
I have watched the Texel video couple of times, and I have to say that I enjoyed it more, but not because quality of making, but the circumstances of scenarios. At Texel both sides would have had a plan ( I guess) and technology was for the both sides was similar, while alternate Samar has too many "what if's". At Texel both sides would have had full armament, fuel, commands structure and one general site of battle with bad weather (allways). At alternate Samar you have number of battles on large area, with different commanders and goals etc.
What I am trying to say is that I might be more fun making a video about scenarios where conditions are better known and scenario plays differently from real event by a single flip of a coin then rolling a dice and letting it play out. For example if the Scharnhorst would not has lost its radar at North Cape early on or if Prince of Wales and Repulse would have gone unspotted by the Japanes and returned to Singapore to fight another day.
Love the channel, keep at the good work.
P.S I have suggested before, but if you ever get around and find it interesting, the British Navy at the Baltic during and after WW1 is a toppic that would easylly be made into an episode in it self. You have submarines operating against germans, torpedo boats sinking russians, espionage, royal navy saving estonia from Soviet fleet, L55 submarine ending in the hands of the russians, submarines scutteled of Finland, etc.
You are a gamer and not into the reality of the conflicts. Real men lived and died in the battles you mention with no feeling for them. Just my thought of you.
@@73Trident Oi man chill bruv. Your feeling get hurt?
It wasn't just surface search radar. It was also radar fire control systems, something the Japanese completely lacked. The Yamato's radar was only a surface search set. All the "old" battleships and most of the cruisers and destroyers were equipped with varying numbers of Mark 37 GFCS directors tied back into the Ford 1A computer and Mk 6 Stable Element, all being controlled through the plotting table in the Combat Information Center. The only hope for the Japanese was to drive into as close a range as possible. The US GFCS radars were only about as effective as Japanese optical directors at close range. The further the range, the more rapidly the Japanese would be smothered by the radar controlled gunfire from US fleet.
Even the Long Lance didn't have the advantages they did two years earlier as improvements in sonar and radars on the US were able to detect the firing and path of the torpedoes while broadcasting the data to the other ships in the fleet. Even this advantage was negated by rainge, so closer range on the part of the Japanese gives them their best chance of survival wile damaging and sinking US ships.
This was my major issue with the play through as well. The IJN Battleline did almost no damage with sustained fire against some jeep carriers and destroyers. IF the IJN can get the hits then sure it is going to wreck things, but the USN at this time was almost hitting their first salvo. The IJN is going to die gloriously, instead of running away this time.
@TJ Bowman confirmed, AND speculative?
The hit is confirmed as being from a battleship, but it was assumed to be from one of the Kongo class as the Yamato was "too far away", but more recently translated japanese records indicate that neither of the Kongo class or the nagato were firing at that ship, leaving Yamato as the probable source despite the extreme range.
The hit was also technically a near miss that traveled underwater and detonated under the keel of the CVE in question.
but IJN shells were specifically designed to make this sort of hit possible, with long delay fuses and a shell shape that was optimized to maximize underwater travel distance. (To the detriment of their performance against lightly armored surface targets. A lot of shells at the battle of samar passed all the way through the DD's & DE's before detonating.)
The Iowas by comparison got several near misses at an even longer range at Truk, but failed to do significant damage, and are generally not considered in people's " longest hit ever" comparisons.
Good point. I believe, and am too lazy to check, at the Battle of Surigao Strait, West Virginia '44 hit Yamashiro with her first salvo and the other old American BBs quickly keyed in. Radar was decisive.
The Brooklyn class cruisers would have been a game changer in this fight. They had the most recent radar, they had 3 extra 6inch barrels over the Cleveland's and the ammunition loading process was mostly automatic. Allowing them to absolutely pour fire non stop. The Boise and Helena(A different class but a half sister nonetheless) proved this in 42/43. They did have light armor but its hard to fight back when 6inch shells are walking up and down your decks and wrecking everything. Lastly, I don't think the Fletchers and the one Tribal class would have ever stopped firing the main batteries. Fire whatever guns you can bring to bear. And keep firing till either you sink, the barrels melt or the magazines are empty. The Japanese fleet would have been absolutely been buried under waves of 4.5, 5inch and 6inch fire. Add in some 8inch and 14, 16 inch fire for good measure.
American destroyer fleets: because overkill is an often underrated achievement.
Are you suggesting that there is such a thing as too many fletchers? Impossible.
@@legogenius1667 Fletchers, nothing, Bensons will work quite well in quantity, too.
God that Americans and the rain part. Cracks me up. Thanks for the dry humor.
Rimmi Peepsicles
Wow for over 11 months no one realizes that while you mentioned how the Americans abusing cover and concealment, you said rain and then you thanked Drach for his DRY humor. Just wow
Both styles of videos have their place. Let the war game decide which type of video you should produce.
BTW as a former American "small boy" sailor I absolutely love the "swarm of angry Fletchers" and other comments regarding the sheer courage of the American destroyer screen. Bravo good sir.
Johnson's skipperwasa Cherokee indian. The triberesurrectedoneoftheancientearriorsocietiesespeciallyfor him! John Paul Joneswouldhavebeen proud!
@@charleschapman6810 Wouldn't anyone who could claim any connection to him be proud. A true hero.
As a retired history teacher. I really love your channel. These "What If" situations are very entertaining. I appreciate the effort you made in making them.
So basically whatever happens, the fletchers will descend upon the Yamato like a pack of rabid dogs.
10:15 "...and then you have one crazy battleship that thinks it's an oversized destroyer and charges the straight down the middle."
+flambass is that you on two brothers?
As distinct from the USS Johnston, the crazy destroyer that thought it was an undersized battleship.
@@amrak63 Lol I was thinking about that.
@@amrak63 The Johnston didn't think itself an underszied Battleship.
The Johnston thought itself, the only battleship on the seas.
You magnificent Brit this is amazing!!!
As a lover of alternative history I thank you.
Do another one where Lee's battleships are still guarding the approach off Samar!
Rener De Castro Fun idea, but a night battle there (starting at night anyway) with the first thing the Japanese would have known being torpedo hits followed by long-range super-heavy 16" salvos they couldn't answer, then heavy air attacks starting at dawn... maybe not so interesting.
@@stevebloom55 You're forgetting that this scenario would have had the Iowa fighting the Yamato, something a lot of enthusiasts still talk about to this day.
@@RenerDeCastro They wouldn't be fighting so much as Iowa getting target practice. The encounter would have begun at night, radar detection and targeting would have taken center stage and Yamato may have had a basic radar set, but it would be nothing technically compared to what Iowa was equipped with, as well as *vastly* superior operators on Iowa. Before Yamato even knew they were there, never mind the rest of centerforce, they would be on the receiving end of a hailstorm of 16" shells blasting the deck and everything on it to hell.
Especially since Lee's task force would have had its own "swarm of angry Fletchers".
@@RenerDeCastro Except for the fact that none of the Iowas would have been there.
Samar has been a wargaming focus for me for over 20 years. When the rules are adjusted for realistic weapons behaviour, the historical scenario almost always plays out as actually occurred.
The scenario you are looking to do here, was actually far more likely than the battle against Taffy Three that actually occurred. Digging thru the Seventh Fleet Oporder for the invasion, I happened across the patrol plans for the seaplane wing. Turns out that a Catalina was scheduled to make a daily run straight up the east coast of Samar, but on this day it had aborted and did not fly. If it had been up as planned, it would have picked up Center Force long before it reached Taffy Three, providing enough warning for the Taffys to clear to the east and configure anti ship strikes about the same time Center Force clears the south east corner of Samar and walks into the 7th Fleet gunline hiding to the west.
Great video. The "destroyer spam" comment cracked me up, lol. These new battle vids you've been doing are great. I hope to see more.
🙀 This week on "Quantum Leap." Sam Leaps into Admiral Oldendorf in Oct. 1944.....
Given what I know of the history of Leyte Gulf, you had to make some MAJOR assumptions and limitations to bring about a good old-fashioned battleship brawl. And I don't mean that as criticism in any way - you HAD to limit the scope and forces involved, otherwise there were just too many factors to account for, to even get to the point of the "fun" part of a BB brawl.
Such as, I can't imagine a scenario, at this stage of the war, where the USN wouldn't have had dedicated air cover and support for this large a force, from at least one or two of the Taffy groups, if we wanted to be as realistic as possible.
I can imagine poor old Kurita, with the way he reacted historically, facing a handful of DD's and escort carriers plus being under constant air attack, having a complete mental breakdown. Faced with 6 BB's, 8 cruisers, and enough DD's for every day of the month, PLUS air attack from one or more of the Taffy groups, he would have just said "NOPE" and hightailed it out of Dodge.
At that, I quite enjoyed the way you covered this, with the possible different outcomes and strategies, and the explanations as to why.
Exactly
Like Drach said, don't sweat the small stuff! Fast forward to the good part!
To be fair he thought it was Cruisers escorting Fleet Carriers. Simply having actual fleet carriers or battleships there for reference might make him significantly less inept.
IF things had gone as planned -- at least 2 of the Taffys wouldn't have been there -- they were headed out for re-fit and repair, and re-stocking of planes.
No aircraft,major flaw
By this point in the war it was recognized by USN tacticians that radar gunnery held THE advantage, so that, in the event of a surface-force encounter, the primary role of the destroyer screen would be to lay down a smokescreen, from which the blue force units would shoot.
Blindfire capability was highly prized in late '44, as Adm. "Ching" Lee was a major proponent and very influential after his decisive victory at the 2nd Naval Battle of Guadalcanal.
Another factor not really talked about here is the fact that, although all of the USN battleships were pre and contemporary World War I construction, California, West Virginia and Tennessee were almost complete rebuilds. They sported greatly-upgraded fire-control, armor, secondary batteries, torpedo defense, communications and everything else that might be found in a modern US battleship. The West Virginia and Maryland also had the advantage of shipping USNs 2700lb. 16" projectile, which was incredibly destructive (claimed by BuOrd to be the equivalent of the USN 18" weapon contemplated in the 1920s and '30s).
Given all of these factors, I would put 7th Fleet's chances in this engagement at: Better than average....................
Add to that the quality, or lack thereof, of the Yamato's armor. Postwar tests concluded that Japans steel wasn't all that great with a high degree of impurities. Another postwar test pitted a sample of leftover armor vs a armor piercing 16" projectile. The projectile tore through the armor and was lost in the Potomac River.
OTOH, Pennsylvania's f/c was so bad she didn't even fire a shot a Surigao Strait. Granted, there weren't many targets left by the time it got to her place in line.
@@erichammer2751 You said it at the end, they didn't have to shoot.
They had the Mark 1 16'', which was not equal to the 18 " in penetration. The Mark 7, in the iowa, was claimed to be almost as powerful as the 18", which is very impressive. There is a video in the New Jersey Channel, with drachnifel, where they show the difference in size of this rounds. The 18 " would still have much bigger bursting charge, though. The real advantage for the americans here would be the radars, the amount of destroyers and the computers and radars to find a firing solution, i think. Also, it's hard to believe that at this stage of the war, such a big battle would be fought without any American aircraft carrier around .
A very interesting scenario. Theres so much that could happen to change the outcome by a little to a lot. I can understand how hard it was to do this episode when you had so much (possible events) that could change the outcome.
"Swarm of angry Fletcher's" brilliant! A very interesting piece, certainly fascinating.
It's interesting that the Japanese Navy always wanted to engage in a "decisive battle," but waited and lost enough various units until they no longer had the numbers to win a decisive battle.
Quality of the fleet commanders must count for something. I'd pick Oldendorf as the more pugnacious over Kurita, hence he would probably use far more aggressive tactics, i.e. massed destroyer attack supported by cruisers with the battleships in reserve as overwatch.
I believe you will have to do an event where we do this in Warships. Believe me, this would be fun. As for how to make Tones work, let's just replace them with Myokos and give the Americans 4 New Mexico-class as they are the Standards. As for the video? I like it, even though the Texel-style is more entertaining.
@Jurassic Aviator World Of Waships sadly offers only New Mexico as the non-premium 12x14in US Standard. So it would be best to use what we have in-game
@Jurassic Aviator Dude.... Read what the freaking comment thorughly before commentig. I said as a substitiute.... And in WoWs. You seem to assume something and defend yourself by saying 'I did not talk about what the original comment was saying' The whole point is me saying that we should attempt to recreate this in a game.
An interesting alternate history: Task Force 34 being formed and left to guard the straight when Halsey left to go after the carriers.
I had the privilege of being a boot ensign in Heermann in1955 and her gun boss when we decommissioned her on the 20th of December 1957. I have always said that she was the ship that I liked most. My XO taught me how to be a Naval Officer. He retired as a Read Admiral. I look back at the good times and the bad time with equal pleasure. She was a very good ship. Too bad the Argentinians mad razor blades from her remains. She would have made a very good monument ship.
best description of a world of warships match ever
Personally I prefer this format. A full breakdown plus plausable alternatives I believe is more informative than "x would win outright". Warfare is fluid and odd things can not only happen but cause massive changes in outcome. See squalls in this engagement. They alone sway the outcome.
I want to see an Alternate history where Task Force 34 is guarding the San Bernardino Strait when the Center Force emerges.
You asked and ye have received
@@aaronstorey9712 Just big Ls for Japan
It’s almost less amusing than this because it lacks the image of the almighty swarm of angry Fletchers spamming the shit out of the Japanese battleships with torpedoes.
37:59 This picture made me crack up for some reason 😂
Poor japanese, always getting swarmed by angry Fletchers.
30:13 The image of the US battleships hiding in the rain squall while blasting the Japanese silly.
17:13
The opening phase, where the Japanese come steaming over the horizon, screaming "Omae wa mou shindeiru!" while everyone in the American fleet goes "Ah shit, here we go again."
Also I like the Texel style better. Just seems cooler, especially the outtakes.
Epic exploration of the scenarios possible. That was damn entertaining and illuminating.
Great video. You asked if this format compares to your video on "the battle" of Texel and I would say it does not. This video is great and provides a much more informative and detailed analysis on how the hypothetical battle could develop. Educationally this video is far superior. However, the battle of Texel is much, much more entertaining. In that you give us a play by play of an epic battleship showdown, zooming around the battlefield(would it be battlesea?) giving us the tiniest details of epicness to grin and smile at. In this video you take almost all the "fun" out of the battle by showing the hypothetical and not giving us an actual clear, concise battle to follow. Both formats are good and well done, but to someone who really enjoyed the Texel video it would be unfair not to say that I was disappointed with the format you chose here. After all, to me these type of hypothetical alt history battles are to give us the grand battle that never took place, not to have an informed discussion on what could potentially have happened. Anyways, love your work. Peace!
WOWs is not real, it's a game. We are talking real ships and men's lives.
When you're a Filipino and you see one of your favorite TH-camrs make a video related to Filipino History;
yus
(also, you pronounced Yamato quite funnily, however you did a pinpoint job for some of them, although Tone sounded like Toenail)
Great video, I would be very interested in how tall force 34 would have handled the center force. An alternate history scenario as to if Halsey had formed and detached TF34 and left with the carriers. This of course would require suspension of disbelief to imagine Halsey taking the carrierrs to battle what he believes to be operational carriers without the surface combatants for anti air support. But it would be probably the greatest battleship duel in history.
Great job! I think you dealt with this as best as it could be done, including the necessary caveats. People need to understand that this is not a 'possibility'. It's not a 'what could've happened'. It's just a fun scenario for ship geeks:) Because to change the disposition of ships, you'd have to change the reasons for that disposition and that would in turn changed the expected behavior of those commanders and units.
Anyway, two minor points:
1) Unless Taffy 2 and 3 completely disappeared, they'd still provide scouting / ASW patrols for 7th fleet which they were part of. Plus, there are also scouting planes on BBs and cruisers. It's actually likely that Kurita would be discovered at the same time or even earlier because scouting / ASW arrangements around major fleet units would be far more aggressive then around escort carriers on supposedly safe flank just because those are always high value targets which will always draw enemy attention.
Even if this didn't happen:
2) The reason why Kurita turned tail was that he thought that instead of transports, he found major US fleet units. Now, he'd be engaging an ACTUAL major US fleet units, so we must conclude he'd turn tail and run maybe even faster then when met with Taffy 3. Actually, it's questionable if the battle would be even joined because instead of walking right into the middle of Taffy 3, he'd see the high superstructures of US battleships and cruisers from much further away.
But I understand the objective here was to have an actual fantasy battle which is indeed more interesting and more fun:) Well done on the video!
“Never ever underestimate the power of a swarm of anger Fletchers”. Great quote for the little guy, and amazingly accurate. An individual can make a difference against extreme odds.
Very entertaining “what if..”
This mean I have to ask how would Taffy 3 would do against Fuso, Yamashiro, Mogami and four destroyers. I suspect given the shorter odds Taffy 3 would do better than how they did in the actual battle of Samar.
Given the absolutely colossal size of the balls the commanders, captains and crews of Taffy 3 had, I would say they would probably still do alot of damage, the main question would be if the commanders of Fuso, Yamashiro and Mogami would break off the attack like the ones of centre force decided to do despite their advantages and coming close to winning the fight
Next question after that. What if Halsey had detached Alabama, Iowa, Massachusetts, New Jersey, South Dakota, and Washington and a dozen or so destroyers to block the straight as he had originally intended. A lot more radar directed 16" fire coming down on Yamato, but you don't have the swarm of destroyers and cruisers to keep the long lances away from the battle line.
@@GOPGonzo Realistically that means the Japanese are most assuredly stuffed.
I think badly. Nishimura was no Kurita; he would have pressed on no matter what. The BBs (properly fought) would have bullied their way through the CVEs, DDs, and DEs of Taffy 3. And if we're talking night battle, that means almost no aircraft, making the odds even more lopsided.
Gonzo262
The Iowas weren’t actually part of the never-formed Task Force 34, being tied to the carriers. Though it WOULD have been a smarter idea to detach them and send them somewhere where they can actually shoot at stuff bigger than aircraft.
I would put my money on the superior radar and fire control, followed by numerical superiority (Fletchers and Arunta). The squalls would have also amplified this former advantage.
With the big boys slugging it out (BBs) those that hit first are more likely to prevail, therefore those with the superior radar and fire control win the day.
I'm sure I'm not the first person to say this, but I would love to see how you and your mates do these wargaming sessions you've mentioned. Do you actually have a printed set of rules everyone follows or is it more of a homebrew system developed from combined historical study? Is all of the fighting done in your heads, or do you actually break out counters and a big map on a table or floor and move ships about? For that matter, are these scenarios played out physically, meeting at someone's house or a local gaming store, or do you do it virtually through a program like Tabletop Simulator?
I for one would love to see one of these wargaming sessions and watch how you chaps do this. As a fan of both wargaming (both tabletop and computer game) and alternate histories, I think that would make a fascinating video, or possibly even livestream. And I doubt I'm alone in that interest.
I place money on all the above
I recently picked up the General Quarters 3 rules. May have to try this scenario with it eventually, given enough available play time. It's a good set of rules, balancing simulation and playability well. It also has morale checks for determining if heavily damaged units turn away and attempt to withdraw or stay and fight it out longer. A battle of this size would still take awhile to game out and a lot of space, however.
Thank you for the erudition and clarity in elucidating naval military history.
"I can see them they can't see me
I feel out of sight
I can see them they can't see me
Much to my delight" Nice to be here, Moody Blues
There's just something about Battleships. Yeah, Carriers, missiles, landbased aircraft are a better way to project power, but there is nothing more awe-inspiring than a Battleship firing a full broadside.
A battleship magazine explosion is even more impressive. ;)
I would say that the IJN admirals were still shocked over the loss of the ships in the preceeding days and were unprepared to force a major engagement that could result in the loss of the main fleet firepower. No matter the other considerations of weather and technology, they would have chosen to disengage and save the fleet.
Probably, but this was wargamed out with modern people who knew the history and not the actual admirals so his results are obviously slanted towards that.
If only a scenario had been selected that was in some way possible. This one wasn't. Just to start, where were the Taffys?
Musashi's losstook lot outofthem. Shetooka toroedohiton thesamearmored bottom platehitearlier. Steel, once distoerted, permanently losessomeofits strengt,sothearmorthat cost Japan mostofa year's productionsimply blowout, leaving the mightiest battleshipinthe worldwithan irreparable holier her bottom. Moreovershehadthe "luckies'namein the fleet as Musashi himself was a damn near invincible samurai archers sortofJapanese Ivanhoewitha long liftoff unlikely victories discredit. But,oneminut, therehewas,anda few minutes later-mherehewasn't! damaged morale!
I don't understand well why Kurita ran away in these scenarios or in history. The whole Japanese strategy was based on decisive battle doctrine. Well here's their chance to use their battleship fleet to finally show their mettle against the American fleet. Their whole point was to save the Philippines without which their supply lines were crippled leaving their navy worthless anyway. This was a nation that flew kamikazes into enemy ships. The one time a banzai charge would actually have made sense, and they didn't commit to it.
@@maemorri They had taken some pretty brutal losses considering how weak taffy-3 was in comparison, and 3rd fleet could be right over the horizon. With no good radar to give early warning of approaching ships, had kurita stayed, he could easily have gotten his fleet utterly annihilated to at best, slow down the liberation of the Philippines.
Scenario:
A large German task force set off with the Bismarck (who survived operation Rhine and is now fully repaired), Tirpitz, Prinz Eugen, Scharnhorst, Gneisenau, Admiral Hipper, Nürnberg, Lützow (Deutschland), Admiral Scheer, the 2 Graf Zeppelin class aircraft carriers (presuming they where built), 10 destroyers and lastly, 5 U-boats. All ships in that task force are fully topped up on fuel. The Royal Navy sends out her own force of battleships, carriers, destroyers, and cruisers about the same size of the German task force, and when they meet, a massive battle, greater than Jutland takes place. In a separate video, can you detail the battle of these ships to your own Liking?
Just wanna say, this video was very detailed and informative! I really like the kind of content that you produce! Keep up the great work!
Um, I personally think the Brits would send more carriers. Amd speaking of Brits, what would this British task force consist of in terms of what ship classes would be involved.
@@rimmipeepsicles1870
Knowing the Brits, if the Kriegsmarine sent out their entire fleet of ships of the line, those Tommies would have probably not have passed the chance to throw everything at them they had available
And that leaves only the US Atlantic fleet and a little RN dds and corvettes for convoy service
Oh this is gonna be fun... Thought I wish it was what if the task force of 4 battleships that was supposed to be there was actually there and we saw yamato dueling with an Iowa class Battleship
antoine kanel That would have been 3 South Dakotas and a North Carolina if memory serves.
The Iowas would never have actually gotten that engagement.
Not that it matters, because 1 NorCal and 3 South Dakotas are honestly more than enough for taking down Yamato (though I expect one of the American ships to take some damage)
That would be 2 Iowas and 2 Sodaks. They were pulled to assist Taffy 3 after Halsey recieved the Memo.
@@jayvee8502 Source?
@@73Trident Wiki
I like this format,,, I would have no problem listening to longer doc's in this format,, thumbs up on this one..
Definitely think the discussion on alternative outcomes is the way to go in this scenario. When you run across the simulations that consistently play out more or less the same, I think the blow-by-blow rundown is better.
Keep up the good work.
Wow... great discussion! However, as I watched I kept thinking... "But Taffy 3..."
Great discussion! Congratulations on making your presentation so systematic and well structured so that it was possible to follow digressions without losing track of the main thrust of the argument. Thank you!
Entertaining.
"If" is still the operative word.
You could do this as it really happened and more than likely not come out with Taffey 3 winning the day. If it did it would be deemed as a fluke and be dismissed.
Just a thought.
Great job, I thourghly enjoy your hard work. Thank you.
If I'm not intruding .... The title is wrong ....
It should read ....
'Battle off Samar'
One of the four phases that encompassed ....
'The Battle of Leyte Gulf' .... The largest land, air, sea battle of WW2 ....
The others being ....
'Battle off Cape Engano'
'Battle of Surigao Strait'
'Battle of the Sibuyan Sea'
Love your videos, top drawer, excellent narration ....
GOOD SHOW !
TL
Never underestimate the Swarm of angry Fletchers.
Andthe navy's building three more monthatthe principle nat bases back home. Boston Naval Shipyardhadan assembly lineturningout sectionsodthemin the South Boston Annex,then hauling them bymobilecranetotheassemblydry-docksin Charlestown wherethe plank-owner crewswereassistingthe ship-fittersboltingthem together. theyhadenough buildingcapacity left overt build three DE'sor B DEs9British Destroyer Escorts)as well.
Especially when the Japanese fleet has target practice in over a year due to being stationed in Malaysia
“This is going to be a fighting ship. I intend to go in harm's way, and anyone who doesn't want to go along had better get off right now,”
drachinifel, i love your channel. been waiting for this type of video for so long!
Maybe someone forgot to tell the captain of the Johnston that he wasn't a hard charging Army or Marine company commander. Or maybe he thought he was a Gurkha. Drachinifel's "swarm of angry Fletchers" is both humorous and spot on. That kind of gumption is priceless. I hope the U.S. and Royal navies still foster that kind of independence and controlled aggression in their destroyer and frigate captains today.
My bro is currently having lots of mandatory fun serving on board the U.S.S. Mahan (DDG 72), an Arleigh-Burke class U.S. Navy guided missile destroyer. Named for a late 19th century admiral and naval theorist, she is the 4th ship to proudly bear that name.
Wonderful video! After watching it and hearing all about the almighty Fletcher swarm, I went to watch your video on the class and couldn't find one! I would love to hear about what made these destroyers so effective.
I think we can all agree though that both of the forces of this hypothetical scenario combined have less tonnage than Ernest E. Evan's balls.
Ok, you left out one critical piece of information. Kinkaid had 39 PT boats in his Order of Battle at Surigao Strait. In this alternate history they may not have gone in mass but they would have gone in waves and been the first to battle. We KNOW what happened to the Japanese battle line when 4 destroyers dumped their torpedoes in their midst, imagine 156 torpedoes swimming around that fleet. The Japanese would have been totally disorganised before the first American battleship ever fired.
Also the American destroyers dumping Torpedos along with those PT boats would have added probably another 100-200 Torpedos to that horrifying mess. Hell there would be no more ocean and just a solid blanket of Torpedos, which would make dodging near enough impossible
On the other hand..... A daytime mass PT attack is a bit of, "Charge of the Light Brigade. "
@@WALTERBROADDUS yeah it's probably going to be a one way trip for alot of those PT boats
The Light Brigade actually won the battle.
@@WALTERBROADDUS, damn right it is BUT they would have made the charge anyway. Opponents never seem to fathom the sheer insanity of an American skipper once he commits. Think of the Naval Battle of Guadalcanel. Outgunned and the numerically inferior Allied squadron did the insane, they met the enemy head on with PT boats fighting destroyers and antiaircraft cruisers slugging it out with heavies. Sure the Allies were assaulted badly but the IJN fleet turned around and broke engagement. Time and again sheer bravado won engagements or at least secured tactical draw and strategic victory.
The aggressiveness in U.S. commanders I'd bet my money on at least 2/3 of those fletcher dd's going in making smoke and lighting up everything on their way dropping torpedoes on the heavies...the enemies could have had any plans they wanted up to that point....now it's scrambling and getting pounded by radar guided fire. Great job though, your very good at this! Added: I served on Destroyers in the U.S. Navy all the C.O.'a were incredibly aggressive, the entire crew was well aware of our duty. I had one captain say" we'll fight them with knives and forks from the mess decks if necessary " that speech was given every year on the anniversary of the USS Pueblo capture.
In this scenario there would have been no major battle... Kurita would have turned and run away.
If he ran away from 3 Fletchers, a few CVEs, and 2 DEs, he DEFINETELY would have chickened out of a fight with a force that could actually take him on.
The Americansweren'tshortoffuel, so Kurita running away wouldhabveavailedhim little. Hisbase was near Singaporeandthe wildcatswouldhavenbeen on him longbeforehecould gert there!
@@charleschapman6810 did your space key die
I can only imagine the "swarm of angry Fletchers" with each of their captians behaving like Captian Evans
That would have been a battle for the ages. A worthy sendoff to these titanic behemoths of steel and fury.
Getting to fight as they were designed to for one last time in the age of the Carrier.
I suppose in reality Biamarck vs Hood was that engagement.
"It is not like a game of World of Warships..."
LOL...Drach knows!
DITTO
I very much liked this format
Great Job
Most of the Japanese ship names were pronounced accurately... so meh, gd job :3
Lovely video, thanks for that! I honestly think you should retain both formats, the action-by-action battle report and the walkthrough - they are both really informative and enjoyable, and you will probably have more of these close calls in terms of outcome...
Takao didn't participate in the battle of Leyte Gulf
She got hit by a torpedo from a submarine
I quite liked this style of video. I really enjoy you being a bit more "casual". And it's a great discussion, as detailed as possible in this kind of video
Did at any point you account for the ships running out of shells. Just thinking about trying to sink the Yamato, especially the 14 inch ships and Japanese ships. As from what I've read neither the American nor the Japanese gunnery accuracy was relatively good.
We kept a count of ammo but generally the fight didn't last long enough for it to be a concern.
@@Drachinifel hey! How did you carry out the simulation? Any specific application?
@@soham6649 same wargaming rules as the Texel video, only we weren't able to draw a definitive narrative as with that one
Not finished the video yet, however in my opinion while Yamato is well protected she is not invincible. The US battleships don't need to sink her they just need to do enough damage to force her retreat or render her combat incable (kind of like the battle of the river plate or the sinking of Bismarck)
@@Drachinifel But the US battleships were there to support the landings and had a limited supply of armor piercing shells.
I wonder: How much did the Americans know about the Yamato at this point?
If they knew it could easily take them out one at a time at extreme range, wouldn't that have factored into their strategy?
It seems to me the crucial factor in regards to Yamato is wether the Americans would have treated it like any other battleship (which would see them loose outright, or barely win with MAJOR losses), or wether they knew that it would have been impossible to take her down 1v1, or even 2v1.
If they knew that they couldn't just trade blows, but had to deliver a lot of blows themselves without getting much in return,
then the hinding in rain/smoke + shooting by radar approach would have been the only logical option.
any chance of having Ron Jeremy on as a special guest for a discussion on barrel , hull lengths and the benefits of hairy camouflage
Listing the names of US Destroyers be like doing a roll call of all your grandchildren and their cousins during thanksgiving.
A tough call. Nice analysis.
I liked it as the outcome is uncertain in every scenario and you explain it well
I had to laugh at Oldendorf's battle squadron hiding in a rain squall. "You mad?"
center force vs task force 34
USN Victory: IJN can't kill something that didn't exist.
Oh you meant if it assembled.
RIP Centre Force. There’s only one ship in Centre Force that can deal with even one of the NorCals/SoDaks, and there are four of them...
@@bkjeong4302 Yeah the battleship fights in WW2 definitively showed that you don't *need* to penetrate citadel to prevent a ship from fighting back. Yamato probably couldn't fight a 4v1 against superior fire control because she would get most noncitadel stuff blown to bits before she could kill every one.
She would eventually founder and sink if not torpedoes to buggery.
This video was money. Keep up the good work.
Where is Task Force 34 the world wonders - how about that scenario?
Regardless of your native language, the Japanese ship names are stacked in groups with very similar names. They must surely be at risk of confusion during the noise of battle or any other times.
That was a lot of fun. Well done!