Patreon: www.patreon.com/CopiumInhaler to the asmon viewers, Please check Steven's personal response this this PVP the pvp issues (if you can be bothered): www.twitch.tv/videos/1636867463?t=1h14m4s You'll notice that Steven himself parrots exactly what I explained in this video.. so you guys need to just come to terms with the fact that I'm right and your bald man has unfortunately, forgotten what made MMORPGs so special. It's ok that this MMO has PVP - However, these PVP systems, as explaiend in the video, are designed in a way that doesn't repeat the mistakes of the past. Please try to rub your 2 IQ points together and realise that. We don't need Ashes of Creation to be the top MMO... Our Creative Director himself has made this clear it's not going to be. We're happy for it to be a game with 100k players and just 10 active servers. You guys have FF14, WoW and New World to enjoy. So you stick to your dull, boring, handholding singleplayer themepark garbage and let us adults actually have a meaningful, well made and social Massively Multiplayer Online Role Playing Game again.
pve carebears and pve bot farms will upgrade the node.... upgrading the node will enslave all nodes around it and they will become vassals who now will have to pay taxes and xp to their master. Vassals can not declare war against the master node. Ganking would be assymetrical war against their master, but the Corruption system will only make sure the slaves will become red players... the masters will bring their main characters and kill the reds and steal the loot. The corruption system creates a monopoly over violence and monopoly over violence only creates oppresion.
I'm gonna be a carebear in a pvp world.... I guess I will have a lot to learn - I'd rather have that than another New World or Elden Ring. I still think the top tier nodes could be no-pvp though?
the problem is if it doesnt have a few pure pve aspects that pve players can focus on they already lost 70% of the playerbase sadly... and im a pvp player...
@@VyrilGaming You’re simply wrong. I mean, the most popular MMO for the past year and change up until recently had effectively NO PvP whatsoever. They want to make a PvP game, that’s fine, but don’t pretend it will have more than 200-300k players when we can look at the trends and see that won’t happen.
@@LastCrystal Well, the fact this creator felt like they needed to make a video explaining the game is not PvE suggest people don’t know much about it. I had no idea, either. Besides which, we all know how MMOs work. While in development it gets hyped to the stratosphere. I wouldn’t be surprised if they have a million or more players at launch. Half of those people will disappear after the first month, and many more will in the following months. By 6 months you’ll have a better idea of how many people actually were interested in the game and not just riding the hype train and newness factor of an MMO launch. Given it is a PvP game, I think anywhere from 150-250k at that 6 month mark would be the best case scenario.
"Players interacting with each other, is bad for the game." is not at all what Asmon said. If I cant play a game cuz another player keeps killing me without my opt in then Im not going to play long and neither is anyone else, even if you dont drop your shit when u die. If someone is killing you repeatedly with the goal of wasting your time and ruining your experience, then they will succeed. And it will kill the game in the long run.
I legit wanna see this guy play and have a bunch of people dedicated to hunting him down and taking him out every chance they get. See how much fun with "interacting with players" he has. The internet and playerbase can be vindictive and spiteful as fuck, no matter what debuffs or consequences you put on them and the only way for you to be able to do literally anything else would be of some sort of protection put place.
@@denzelwright8475 yeah the protection is that person ends up losing their shit. It's not just debuffs, but when you can end up losing your hard earned gear then you aren't going to be getting that many griefers. As well you will get plenty of people like me who love to defend in wpvp from gankers.
@@umokwhy2830 Thats not protection, thats just risk and fear of possibly losing all your gear. What I said was, that type of risk and fear doesn't often stop people from making their life's goal to ruining your experience, at both of their's and your expense. Not to mention that there are just lopsided battles. Someone kills you and you lose your shit. Cool, they still have all their stuff now plus your stuff and you have nothing. Whats then stopping his buddy from coming and wrecking your shit now that you have even less protection, and so on and so on. Yeah it would be cute to form a band of cowboys to protect the weak, but real "player interactions" rarely works out that way. And you're also forced to focus solely on combat and protecting yourself instead of being the "artisan crafter" Narc said he was, to which point comes the argument that unless some protection are put in place then it might as well just be a pvp game. Which isn't a bad thing, just be real about what will/has actually happened.
@@denzelwright8475 also you saying real player interactions don't work like that I can disagree because I knew plenty that did that. Also, it is a pvp game. So not sure what your point there was
So the lifecycle of this game will look something like this: The are the top pvp players and the bottom ones, the bottom ones - the losers will start leaving the game as it is not enjoyable experience for them. Now the people who used to win over the bottom losers become the bottom losers themselves and so on. You can see the problem with this design when for someone to win there must always be a losing side, however you love the pvp there is no fun being at the bottom of the feeding chain and if there is no compelling reason for that bottom to stick around, the player base will crumble.
It's good that it's not for "everyone" but it as to be for an healthy population of people if the game wants to trive or even just stay afloat. "It's not for you, you don't have to play" is not an argument because people will do just that and no one wants to play a dead or dying MMO
Yeah but the problem is trying to please everyone you end up making something so mediocre that it pleases no one. I've played plenty of MMOs and honestly there's definitely an audience for this type of game.
It feels pretty weird to be so against the statement of "allowing 1 person actions to entirely affect the gameplay experience of another almost always ends up poorly" and then talk about how much you love crafting. What if we gave people the power to come kill you when you were crafting, what if you could be chained and dragged around, what if it was easy to destroy the crafting stations and you had nothing you could do about it, you dont think that is a negative player experience? Players interacting is part of an mmorpg, but one player being able to fully control one or multiple people is not, getting corpse ganked repeatedly is not the same as saying high to a guy named bob over there.
-"But did they die because of the PvP or did they died because the P2W?" They died because PvP focus MMORPGs are niche, the amount of players is not sufficient to sustain the MMORPG life cycle and patch content delivery needed, and therefore they add P2W to the game, some at release as they already know they will not get enough money from just selling fashion gear, and some add it later when they realize. People who enjoy PvP, don't enjoy unbalance combat, and MMORPGs are all about having different character power. That's why some games try to add some PvP sync and other equalizer features. Fundamentally MMORPG PvP is flaw, people think they want it and then get frustrated when a player that spent double the time than them playing the game, can kill them 95% of the time they fight each other. Then they uninstall and go play PvP games like League of Legends because is more skill based and feels fairer. And if your response to that is: "Good, I dont want these players in the game" then you are part of the problem. MMORPGs live and die by their casual community, when the hardcore community can and will attack the casual player because is an easy kill, and the casual player feels the few time they have to play the game is wasted, they leave, and with them, the big chunk of money they use in the cash shop, because they, the casuals, are the ones who buy more skins and fashion accesories. Hardcore players detest that stuff. As long as the person with 15 hours a day can harass and kill easily players that enjoy the game casually, the game will not grow (after the expected decline post launch) Following this open PvP approach, I expect this game to stay in a niche healthy community, servers will merge and close, but it will never be in the league of MMORPGs that release expansions every 2 years and patches every few months.
I agree with some things that Narc says here but for the majority he is trying to present his subjective views as objective facts, which is kinda weird when we all like different things.
Aye, ArcheAge did the OW-PvP part of the OW-PvP MMO well. --> Starting zones are safe and unimportant, with lower end resources. --> Conflict zones in between safe areas to avoid long, continuously safe areas. --> All the seas are full PvP. Meanwhile, it had a trading system where you carried packs (the goods) on your back/vehicles and those could be taken/stolen. Value was largely based on the nature of the pack (the more complicated to craft, the better) and the distance you wanted to go. Stay home in the safe areas? No problem, but your packs will be worth little. Want to make mucho dinero? Go intercontinental but you'll have to cross the oceans and risk everything. A fantastic risk vs. reward system, which made room for carebears, adventurers and pirates alike, without favoring any. It also rewarded you for planning well and investing in your infrastructure (and OW MMOs should strive for that kind of long-term investment where you can improve your ships, strengthen your caravans, etc., etc.).
@@MrLuchenkov agree, the thing with archeage system is that it forced social interaction on its contents, playing solo in archeage will not take you far, its a lot more fun and worth it to do trade runs with guildmates who will guard you and your packs than if you are to do it solo. Thats one thing i liked about the game, but at the same time i can see it being the con for other players
As someone that hates open world PVP I will say your video has made me feel a bit better about it by elaborating upon the systems. But I am also aware and content with the fact that once this game comes out, open world PVP will be almost definitely be the reason I stop playing it. Such is life.
And that's fine. Not every game is supposed to be for everyone. I, for one, can't stand doing PvE for more than 20-30 minutes at a time and thus don't play GW2, FFXIV and a host of other MMOs. More importantly, in the spirit of this video, I don't go on projects that are announced as PvE-centric and **demand** that they change their model to fit my playstyle, like oh so many "I can't stand PvP, I get clubbered to death if I step foot out of a protected zone and it triggers my PTSD" people do with EVERY. SINGLE. OW-PVP. MMO. that comes out or is announced.
I don't usually appreciate open world PVP in mmos, but I played desert online for a while, I can say that, to me, it wasn't such a big deal. There were a lot of moments where I had to fight people for spots, and I had to call guildies and this actually was fun because it grew from 1 person trying to duel me for sport, to a full on Guild vs Guild lol, it was really really entertaining and fun. With that said, I think AoC as a model, is much better than BDO + the fact that you can literally hire mercenaries that can come do the dirty work for you. Say you were on a spot, and you got griefed by someone; 1-2-3-4 times ( not sure about the number, needs testing and stuff ) but let's say after 4 times dying, the person griefing you, is not a full on red corrupted player. 1- he'll be flagged on the map for all the bounty hunters 2- you can advertise that whomever comes kill this guy on this location, you'll pay them X amount of gold ( extra incentive ) 3- it'll be a really good motivator for you to learn your class more and become a better gamer. Think about it from this perspective + the fact that you won't really experience too much toxic behavior, maybe you'll have 1-2 days / 2 weeks or so where you'll get angry and wanna smash keyboard, but the majority of the time, you'll be fine.
@@MrLuchenkov Yeah I get you. I just hope that the systems they're putting in place are actually effective at disincentivising griefing, because if the game becomes an absolute grief-fest then the game dies.
I remember playing BDO just chilling in the city ( I made some friends in my guild and we were almost always on discord together and stuff ) And then suddenly my friend on discord was like "man, man" come help me pleassseee someone griefing me. ( I was a 'good' ninja / assassin ) so I was like right on man, I'm on my way, went there and we started killing this dude off, then he called his friend, and it became 2v2 on that spot, we lost a lot of the times, but it was a really fun experience and I enjoyed it. Mind you, it was literally 0 rewarding for pvp, so it was only fun, no rewards / incentives to actually pvp lol. Now imagine this concept, but my friend calling me "man man" there is this corrupted player here griefing me, come kill him and loot his gear. You bet I'll be on my way xD hahaha
I will kindly disagree with pretty much everything that guy said Soooo if wow, ff14 and such are trash mmo, wich of ashes kind of mmo, obtained their player number? New world economy didnt die due to the pvp toggle, it died due to player being able to duplicate stuff Sorry but forced pvp ist what the majority of mmo player want. I dont think it was the case even back then, people just didnt have other option. I mean if it was sooo popular, most of those game woulnt have died long ago. Its ok for people to like and want the kind of mmo ashes want to be but its another to think all other kind of mmo are trash while they clearly the one that survived and thrived I do hope ashes do well enough to stay alive for people that like that kind of game, i mean they should at least have one game they can have their fun in.
I think it's less about wanting it to be for "them" and more about wanting a game to be successful and retain players so "they" have something to play longer than 3 months. Everyone knows the game will not be successful given the known current mechanics of the game. These systems already exist in other games and are not successful regardless of how hard people lie to themselves to pretend they are. Now I do agree steven should put out the game he wants and we'll see how it goes. but I mean look at Narcs reaction to Asmons take. Hes too stupid to realize Asmon is saying anytime you give a player the option to control another players experience it will be negative. He thinks Asmon is just saying interaction is bad. Just shows how dumb people actually are around this argument.
@@BlueMax717 EVE and BDO seem to be doing fine idk what you mean by "these systems exist and are not successful." And Ashes seems to be taking lessons from allot of these games to improve on it further.
@@BlueMax717 Also I want to add that Narc knows exactly what Asmon is talking about and just calls it out for what it is, a bad take. Asmon lives in a World of Warcraft bubble where everything has to emulate how WoW is even though its been trash since WotlK and was never the only/best way to make an MMO.
An mmo without PVP can definetly be a real MMO. Maybe it's not what you want and i love open world PVP but i can also really appreciate runescape being an MMO and FFXIV being an mmo .
Runescape has open world pvp.... in the wilderness, and on pvp worlds. People usually don't to the wilderness unless they want, to pvp, although there are quests and tasks that require the player to go to the wilderness.
How exactly do you expect this game to reinvigorate the MMO genre if it won't get a massive following? Even if we assume it won't crash and burn like other open-world PvP games have, it needs to be *extremely* successful to make any big waves in the game dev scene. You can't get that with a "90% MMO players won't play it anyway" mentality. It's either the game with open-world PvP or a popular game that may change something. Choose one.
What makes an MMO alive are Solo, PvE, Casual, and Lifeskill players. Ashes of Creation isn't for those types of players, Ashes of Creation is for PvP Hardcore players, the extremely small minority. Ashes of Creation will follow New World's path, it will start big with 1M or maybe more players, and over 10 months will go down to 20k players. The difference is that New World "survived" out of the "carebear" players, the majority, while Ashes of Creation will have no one to sustain the damage. Saying Ashes of Creation will have 20k players after 10 months is a joke, the game will die because PvP Hardcore players are the smallest % of the MMO player base. Ashes of Creation is flawed, the game won't be a success and will suck more than New World sucked.
Yeah even in BDO most of players are still causual, housing, life skill, train horse fishing, gathering, ship craft, griding, farming, all of those resources. not a lot of people cares pvp.
"Ashes of Creation is for PVP Hardcore players" Bro... what are you talking about.... there is no "hardcore PVP" in Ashes of Creation... the whole game revolves around social gameplay and community, guild PVP and Lifeskilling.
@@Narc If the video tells me the game has its foundation around PvP, and allowing people to toggle on and off PvP would ruin the game, then you are telling me the game is PvP, pure and simple. Despite the developer saying it's a PvX game, it's actually a PvP game.
It's wild nearing someone decry all the systems that made MMOs more popular than ever being accused of "killing the mmo." Yeah, you can go overboard with remote queue systems like garrisons, but toggle pvp and dungeon finders are a big part of what made MMOs accessable enough to get this popular.
I think you are actually misunderstanding asmon's take. The the way I understood him was that he was just saying if you can impact someone experience negativity by exploiting mechanics its a bad gameplay mechanic with nlt a lot of time, which would take profits away from the game, which then might lead to less content being funded. Not that interaction was bad general. Which I think is a valid opinion.
As someone who plays pvp almost exclusively in mmos, I think forcing people to pvp who don't want to pvp is a terrible idea and will quickly drive people away. PvP players are in the minority of mmo players. PvP should be consensual. People won't care that there are consequences to ganking others; they will do it because it's funny to them. Games are for enjoyment and you should be able to participate in whatever content you prefer. Mass open world pvp is a joke: it's literally just a spam of abilities with zero skill involved. Some people like that, and having that be an option is great. Just don't force people into it. The times where you get an open world fight in a fair way are extremely rare. Usually it's just someone (or multiple people) ganking someone who is trying to do something else and is at a disadvantage. This whole "golden-age" of mmos where everything was perfect is a myth. There has always and will always be issues in some form or another. People look back fondly at their earlier days of playing mmos because it was a new and unique experience that no other type of game offered. It was basically one of the first ways to hang out with people you didn't know from the comfort of your home while working towards a common goal. There are many things wrong with current mmos but magically trying to do away with all convenience (aka: wasting peoples' time) and forcing people to do things they don't want to do is a recipe for disaster. That's just...like... my opinion.. man.
2022 guide to YouTubing: >Make flamboyant claim >Make your audience feel superior to others >Flame a more popular TH-camr >Cherry pick a single example >Scream Cope when someone disagrees Arguments here used to be thought out and well explained. Maybe you have a leak in the copieum stash?
I have played hardcore PvP games such as Ultima Online in its peak. Such games depend on the wolf, sheep and guard dog mentality to operate, and this is unsustainable nowdays. There are alternatives for the sheeps, and they just wont bother staying around just so 5% of the player base can have their fun at the sheep's expense.
Throwing my own two cents in the ring, I'm staying hopeful for AoC and it sounds like it has an in-depth crafting system that I can absolutely sink my teeth into. That being said, I hope it's corruption system does a great job because the last time I tried a PvP MMO (Mortal Online for reference) it had relatively great gathering and processing and good looking crafting but the problem was you had people stationed literally outside the starter town who would just cut you down whether you had anything of value or not. Even when one of the larger guilds ran them off and us newbies could escape and start the game, trying to do anything as an artisan was completely pointless. Get saddled down with a ton of rock to try and process and refine to, you know, be a crafter, and randomly get merc'd every other minute on your way back to town. After getting killed over 30 times in a couple of hours, literally wearing starter gear and a ton of rocks....I was like, you know what? I'm going to go find a game that respects my time and where people have human decency. Left that sh**show and never looked back.
What I can almost guarantee is if the system is being exploited like that at launch the devs will fix and change it. But I think these things will all be solved in public alpha 2 and beta testing.
This is one of the main reasons why I am even more invested into a game, and I get even more ambitious to get better gear in game, farm, tryhard and at the end take my revenge on the players that did camped me or killed me. This is one of the best reasons I love open world PVP. If somebody killed me and trolled me I am even more focused on farming and getting to a point where I can payback what I own to them, sweet, sweet revenge.
I agree with you, but I also am a solo player mostly. The thing is.. my ideal solo experience is being part of a dynamic world with player factions I can freely join and fight with or break off and do my own thing. I like being solo, then seeing a friendly player getting chased by gankers, jumping in to help that player, and then parting with a simple thankyou and good luck. These are the sort of interactions I want games to provide for solo players. Not closed off insntanced single player or PvE only content.
I’ve been a solo/duo PvP player in Elder Scrolls online and I hope that in Ashes if you can get good enough you’ll be able to win outnumbered fights.. If not I have a ton of friends coming to Ashes from ESO so if it’s more group focused we have 8 years or so of pent up ESO rage to unleash on the entire server.
Basically you want to be an NPC inside a game.... thats what i gather. You dont want to play with people, you want them to exist in the server like some kind of potential event and in the case you meet them and interact with them via combat you part your ways by saying good luck.... Thats not what MMORPG is.
I honestly don't think this video does this game a favour. PvE players are the majority of any community, and no full-PvP MMO has ever succeeded. Pushing people away before the game has been released, isn't the smartest move, your Copeness.
@@martinmustermann7523 PvE is the foremost group content tho'... Most of PvE (professions are not PvE as there's no versus included) requires a group. PvP can be done solo quite effectively.
Being a L2 fan for 7 years, I'd love to see ashes improve upon the L2's corruption system and truly create a system that is too hard to game/grief, but in my opinion Asmon and Ghost have a point in that being "not for everyone" could hit the Ashes team hard, big team needs big money to pay salaries and to create big and content rich expansions and help the game live year after year. It's very likely that without the "average dad gamers" this game just won't have enough revenue streams to keep it alive. My only hope is that they make the corruption system so rigid, that it would be too hard to try and game it. Atleast 1 way to play around the corruption system exists right now - just have a party of 8 attack a party of 2 and harrass them without killing, waiting for them to leave or become flagged and kill them afterwards. With that said, I like the Lucky Ghost's idea to make a "Harass meter" that will slowly go up as you attack the same player without him responding back, and if you attack him too much, you'll go corrupted without even killing him. I also think they need to tune down the death penalties for non-combatants, as for some players, just knowing that by killing you , they will get a few of your resources, make you get an exp debt, have reduced stats and reduced drop rates is good enough reasong to gank you and get corrupted and just work it off later with their group of friends guarding them.
Yep. It takes a serious overdose of copium to think Steven has out thought griefers with a few system tweaks. Alpha 2 will probably show up the weaknesses in the systems they have devised.
@@BulldustHHH Which is a good thing because it makes the team confront the issue. I think letting it play out how people think it will is a good thing.
I don't agree with you entirely, many kids nowadays did not even experienced a TRULLY open world PVP MMO. All MMO's that came up in the past few years and instanced, single player, trash games. If they would have a chance, they would know what MMO was back in the days when we where young, and many of them will love it. I was a kid when I started playing Lineage 2 back in the days, and making friendships, gathering for PVP with my clan, guild was amazing times, probably best times I ever had in a game.
@@AlexOltyan No they wont, fortnite, league, COD etc. is popular because you are all on the same playing field with rankings and so on. The rounds are short enough usually to start again a couple of times. MMOs are not short most times new players or none NEETS will not ever get on top. Unlike MMOs other games where every round is a new round and a chance of winning.
The fact you act like you're speaking on the behalf of Intrepid studios is incredible egotistical. This is classic gatekeeping. I agree that there are a lot of problems with modern MMOs. On the flip side most modern MMOs have some really good aspects and features in them that AoC will most likely be built off many of those elements. To sit there and say that this game isn't for 90% of MMO players is like the idiots who say Dark Souls is, "such hard game" and "only real gamers should play it." Steven, the AoC developers and rest of the team are not sitting there saying, "if you don't like our game get fucked." Nor are they saying, "you know all those other MMOs, they're fucking garbage." I really doubt they appreciate you going around telling people that they won't like AoC. The whole point of AoC was to bring back certain elements of older design but it's not like they won't have modern elements to the game. Just like with the Josh Stife Hayes thing it feels like you're just trying to drum up controversy. Not surprising as there's not much to talk about with AoC. So maybe you've won this round anyways. Either way I won't be watching anymore of your videos. I probably will play AoC if and when it comes out. That will be in spite of gatekeeping weirdos like yourself.
The thing your missing though narc and why asmon is actually correct…. “Warmode” kills world pvp in games its in simply because MOST players don’t want world pvp. The idea of it sounds very appealing and exciting but in reality most people just get annoyed when their time is wasted dying to someone higher level than them while trying to get a quest done. The majority of players want to pvp on their terms in a “fairer” way (queuing into a pvp match). If this wasn’t the case then “war modes” wouldn’t kill world pvp as everyone would leave it on. You’re in a minority I’m afraid and sure that may change in the future with better incentives in games to world pvp but until then games with always on world pvp will alienate the majority of players.
I don't HATE the idea of open world PvP, even though I'm not huge on PvP, because I haven't ever played a PvP-always-on type of MMO. I will say I feel a little bit better now, knowing that if you literally just don't ever attack another player, you at least won't lose any gear. If I'm just trying to do some PvE and I get killed by a random and lose all my shit, I'm not going to be playing that game for very long.
Well you can still lose materials and experience/durability I think? You definitely don't wanna just die either. I'm sure all that is open to changes/adjustments.
Overall disagree, especially the take that new world economy died was because of toggle pvp. Duping and economy curve inherent in the game was main issues.
Why haven’t open world PvP games taken off as of late? Why do theme park MMOs seems to dominate the space while games like MO2 or other open world hardcore PvP games seem so niche? It think what asmon meant is that if people have agency over other in game, 9/10 they will have fun at others expense . If given the opportunity, the shitters will already create that quit moment more than amicable players will inspire people to stay.
I play mo2 and i love it but its failing more because of bugs, releasing unfinished, content promised but not delivered, criminal system is kinda weak. I don't think it is doing badly because its full loot PvP, I think its doing badly because its not doing it well
@@TheSteadyeddieShow I agree that bugs and un-finished state of the game. And I agree with you second statement of it not doing full loot well. The appetite for large scale consumption of full-loot opera world PvP is there, its just the populations will never be as big as those who prefer theme park or “care bare” experiences. I can see it now. Ashes pulls in millions of people the first couple weeks, but the second that the person who mains WoW, New World, ESO, FFXIV, etc, gets their equipment or inventory poached by open world PvP, they’ll quit. And when numbers drop below 50K, people will claim “dead game” because AOC is supposed to me the “WoW Killer”.
This video is a testament to why open world pvp mmos usually fail. Throwing around insults like carebears, solo player trash, etc. gives you an outlook on the player base attitude of mmo pvp'ers towards other players and probably towards one another. It's gonna be toxic Who's gonna enjoy that? And let's be true here: 99,9 % of mmo pvp'ers suck at pvp, that's why they want to play compulsory mmo pvp which is not based on skill, but on level and gear. If you really enjoy pvp on a level playing field, you'd play fps , br's or bg's. When you eliminate the casual player base from your game, because you want to cater to the rather small audience of hardcore players, who can invest 8+ hours per day into the game, you won't break even. That's why I believe zone based pvp and/or purpose based pvp is more enjoyable in an mmo, than any undirected open world pvp, which most of the time ends up in grieving or gank fests, no matter what kind of "corruption mechanic" or whatever you implement.
Regardless of how they explain it (pvx, pvasfafaas .... or whatever), if they can't make the game fun for what the majority of players style will be (casuals) it will die....period. Believe it or not, pvp fans or hardcore players, do not represent the majority which bring in the subscriptions a game like this needs to thrive. Because of this, Asmongold is unfortunately right. If you create a game which will only bring frustration to the casual player who represent the majority of players, the game will die. This is why WOW survived for so long. WOW had everything of both worlds. Hardcore content and solo pve content galore. A new game can not provide so much content to satisfy both worlds from launch, so the masses need to be satisfied first. They will only push those masses away with unwaranted/uninvited PVP that only translated into frustration for the casual player.
I supported the original Kickstarter for AoC because it was going to fix the problems we saw in ArcheAge. As long as the core of the game maintains the good aspects, I'll be fine. I was mainly PVE/Carebear in AA, but my ambition was to do stuff that others didn't want to try. Like building a car mostly by myself while being free-to-play, and getting the Quantum Mechanic title. I'm still hopeful after all this time for AoC because I know what the original dreams were and can't wait to see it realized.
As a PvE player in MMOs (I go to strategy for my PvP), I cannot overstate how much I disagree with everything you said in this video. This video felt like a twitter user trying to force its beliefs down my throat like facts, using words like "dumb", insulting the intelligence of those with different preferences than you, and using conflicting viewpoints to state that things that have happened in MMOs somehow didn't happen. But at least the video was way better put together than a tweet. So at least hearing someone insult me for 20 minutes for finding different things fun than him was done in an entertaining way. I guess I can live with that. P.S. You're very good at using caps to replicate your manner of speaking via text.
My very first MMO (Legend of Mir) that I played when I was 12, was completely open world, PvP, no instances for bosses...nothing. Good old school 56k modem gameplay...The tech was not there for instances. Was there ganking? Yes. Was there griefing? Yes. Still the most fun i've ever had on a game lol. I am so ready for AoC.
Well, if they choose to keep pvp always on, at least you'll be able to enjoy knowing everyone on the server by name. Very cozy, close-knit community ;)
8:53 Removing consent between the player and there character is just bad design. If a player gets ganking while they want to farm, that is going to feel good. Its like you queue up for payload and now you have to play diamond king of the hill. Also in pvp stuns that do remove players characters, and they are super fucking hard to balance because of how powerful it is. The plasma pistol in halo has a big fuck me light, makes load noise slows you down only works on vehicles. And after all that its still good. Because of how powerful a stun is. OW2 had to remove a lot of stuns because of how powerful they where. So no. Removing consent between the player and there character for a social interaction isn't always good in multiplayer games. Ice psyches suck even in singal player games because it takes away control. If you would like to find out a lot about player consent, id recommend watching Flats spectate bronze in OW. Because his critics gives a lot of insight.
Pretty much every game that advertised itself as not for carebears (or any variation thereof) failed miserably soon after. Everyone thinks they'll enjoy a cutthroat environment, until everyone who's worse than them at pvp leaves the game.
Well, this kind of MMOs died, dying, or have PVE servers for a reason. Most people won't be looking to get their time wasted in this type of games. Doing the same thing (even improved) but expecting a different result is exactly why open world PKs are in the place they are now. Lets not kid ourselves here. Every MMOs do need carebears and casuals to maintain it, thats the main source of revenue. There is no system to absolutely prevent griefing. Players will find a way to bypass it pretty fast, even more so with a lot of freedom. The best hope is to minimize it to the minimum. -------- FFXIV is popular because it has almost no player interaction? That is actually wrong on so many levels. It has, tons of it, but barely forced outside of duty roulettes and finder. FFXIV actually has the most diverse communities within the game community ive ever seen in any MMO. It has; Raiders, PVPers, gatherers, crafters, optimizers, fashion designers, event organizers, roleplayers and ERPers, Mahjong masters, triple triad collectors, mount collectors, dancers and performers, The Lominsans, house designers, cafe-restaurant-theater owners, fishers, musicians, hunters, treasure hunters, lore masters, puzzle solvers, FATE trackers, modding, and casuals. They even created their own websites and stuffs for other players to use. Some players are also belong in several communities at once. Conflict is not the only significant interaction players can have in a MMO anymore. Once an openworld PK game realized that, i believe it can have the best of both worlds and finally prosper. The same core design and griefing preventions, but a lot more space for carebears and casuals. To be honest, a MMO can be much greater with a lot of passionate carebears. In short; same core, improve the core, and have a lot of non-power related but also meaningful relaxations away from combat. Do the ground work for community building.
There is a reason why games are more themepark. Because it works... It draws in players, it gives people different ways to spend their time and if the developers are good, they provides a steady flow of content to keep people coming back. You can't call all these different mmos garbage when they have millions of players happily playing everyday while you sit here hating on people who enjoy things that you don't. PvP do get shafted in most cases, mostly because companies see more profit in appealing the broader audience and/or too lazy to update all their content. However lets be real here, the goal of pvpers isn't to compete. It's to dominate. Imagine if any major league sports didn't have season resets. So all the sponsors, interviews and merchandise deals always went to the top teams while any new teams are forced to struggle until they can get a record comparable to the best team. Domination eliminates competition which leads to a consumption of resources to gain strength. If you don't want mechanics to limit your enjoyment, you guys need to chill and allow players to progress. I understand pvpers are starving for a game that fulfills their needs but they will be sharing this space with players who don't find enjoyment in the same way. Not saying you have to become a "carebear" but don't overhunt your prey. You guys shouldn't be content with just a place to call home. You guys should want the game to succeed, grow and draw in different players who may just enjoy the same type of gameplay. Instead of telling people why the games they enjoy are trash, perhaps you should focus more what AoC has to offer and help alleviate any worries people may have. I think Jahlon of PGN does a pretty good job at this although he seems to be a lot more jaded and antagonistic lately. This debate is terrible to begin with since its just a collection of reactionary videos narrating why they believe the other side's opinions are trash. You'll notice that when pvpers talk to their audience, they refer to AoC as a PvP game but when talking to everyone else its PvX. Let me squash this debate right now. Time has shown what works with an mmo and PvPers lost that battle. Games grow a more healthy player base with cooperative play and competition was relegated to instanced experiences. That doesn't mean pvp should be put in a box. That simply means pvp only experiences are a niche in the space. AoC isn't a PvP only experience but it will be more prevalent in the core of it's design. As long as the different types players support each other and help each other out, everything will be fine. It's everyone's space so lets enjoy it together. Instead of prevent people from putting stuffed rabbits into the man cave, just destroy the rabbits and give them tips on how to hide them better next time.
The better question is why wouldn't you?... Literally what is the point in lvling a character if you are not going to pvp. Pve will always be trash because AI is stupid.
I remember playing Aion and Tera back in the day. The open world PvP and ganking is what got me into PvP in the first place. Aions take was a bit different as portals into the enemies faction held land would only open at certain times. It was always a blast getting ready to defend "the homeland" when enemy invaders were about to rush through portals.
Aion is my favorite pvp game. The best part isn't even the portals, it was the Abyss Ranking. I got to Governor for a month, it was stressful but what a rush! You could tell those that were good by ranking. And high-rankers went after high-rankers, mostly ignoring the noobs. Griefing happened but quickly got boring without rewarding fights. And the transformation felt awesome!
oh yeah, I remember Tera, the PvP server Mount Tyrannies was the most popular server for yearsssss. Had the best PvPers and PvEers. Got dam that was a great game
I've had plenty of fun in MMOs playing solo. In FF14 I grinded out the Kirin mount by myself. Soloing bosses on extreme was fun, the earlier bosses were hilarious because they had phases where they turn invincible but killing them so fast that they skip that phase completely was great. Figuring out the fastest way to kill them was fun. Then when I watched the cutscene where Kirin comes to you I took a screenshot to show my friends in the guild in discord. I was one of the only ones too go through the trouble of getting the mount.
I did the same, and then went for the firebird. Some of the trials are almost as easy as for the kirin mount, but some others you will actually have to start mechanics for. Next thing im going to solo are the kamuis. Won't be easy and I'm not sure all extreme trial bosses from stormblood are solo-able, but some can definitely soloed using warrior or paladin. Love the challenge.
Eh...I always used to gravitate towards PvP MMOs/servers in the past and open PvP never ends up being as interesting as people try to make it sound. It always devolves into random, gankfests. And people always find a way to game the karma/anti-griefing systems.
Nothing wrong with a pvp focused game, the only problem is when pvp players gate keep other players from in game content. There are some days I want to pvp all day, and other days, I just want to chill while cutting down some trees or fishing. I do believe the corruption system in AoC looks promising and honestly, will have to see how the open world pvp works before making my final judgement. I just hope, for AoC sake, that it doesn't end up being a dead pvp game.
@@BlueMax717 Well its definitely gotten worse over the years but I'd say its been overall successful and created some of the most memorable moments in gaming.
@@sicarius8900 it averages 3k players..lol.. hot tub streams get more interaction..move along kid. stop repeating dumb crap your favorite streamer says..
This MMO is not for 90% of players yet AoC is how MMOs are _'supposed to be made'?_ Sounds like a paradox to me. Also players having agency of another w/o consent ≠ players generally interacting with each other. That's a false equivalence. When someone says that _"insert X"_ has lost its soul, I'm just waiting for the rug pull. It's just a disingenuous statement, or how I've seen it used in the past. Another false equivalence would be the strange language about why WoW had 12 mil players back in WotLK. That expansion was the natural conclusion to their previous warcraft games. It had nothing to do with PvP, pay-to-win, monetization, etc. If anything, WotLK made WoW more into a single player game with the LFG tool. Before I would just chuckle at the absurdity of Narc's videos, now I paid a bit more attention to the words he used because my hype kind of died. Lots of logic problems here. Oh well.
Bad video, goes on entire rant that people claim gains and ruin them to their standard. Than does exactly the same by claiming it and outlining what would make it good / bad .......FOR YOU
FF14 literally forces you to team up with other players to tackle content. There's more player-to-player interaction in one raid than you can get in weeks of solo play pvp. To say a MMO needs PVP to be considered a MMO is just stupid.
truth be told. 99% of people making their oppinion known online, have no fucking idea what they are talking about, it's as simple as that, it applies to every topic, it's like a law of the universe.
I love both pvp and pve contents or say the pvx design that Intrepid told us at least for now, in any type of online game the most thing I hate is that players use the game design flaws to do very very toxic things to other players ruining their game experiences just because those toxic players think making other players to quit the game is a fun thing to do as their purpose while playing the game, I hope Intrepid will try their best to prevent those extreme toxic things no matter from pvp or pve perspective.
Hope he watches asmongold response video that disputed all his wrong takes. This guy need a reality check. There’s no value walking 2 hours from point A to B. Average people have lives. If the game fail, it’s not “at least we tried.” Those people spend millions of $ investing and developing the game. Want a game that won’t have hundred thousands of players and be profitable to continue its development? Dude stay high on copium. WOW had 12 million during wotlk because there’s PVE servers. Go make and invest your own dead PVP MMORPG.
Asmongold haven't played a non theme-park "MMO" in his life except for Black Desert, which is kinda shite. His takes are constantly dumb as fuck and very modern "MMO" centric.
@@MATCHLESS789 Can’t name one or have any compelling arguments. Lmao as expected you’re a fking joke. Wow, ffxiv, lost ark, and even new world with its most recent updates. Thank god new world didn’t listen to retards like you. Go crack a cold one and stay high on copium while I fk your mom. Stay cucked on trash mmo
Like the famous bald man said, If you don't prevent ganking and griefing and people feel like they aren't having fun, they will just leave and you will be left with a dead game. Before people say I'm a carebear I have paid for Alpha access and I'm very much looking forward to the PVP in the open world of this game, but it has to be done right. Games like crowfall and others died quickly because they catered to a small niche playerbase who can't sustain a game. If you want this game to be successful and to see expansions down the line, you have to cater to everyone. I will be critcizing the PVP in this game once I play it if I think for a second big guilds/griefers have a chance to ruin it for everyone.
I have been playing MMOs forever, since their inception and while PvP can be fun, making the game built around pvp, means it will fail. I mean open world pvp games just don't do as well as their PvE counterparts. There have been many surveys taken and most end up lower than 30% of the fan base partakes in PvP and 1/3rd of them play it competitively, eg rankings, arenas, ladders etc. So the hype for me has died.
@@VyrilGaming If they can't strike a balance for both PVE players and PVP players because of griefing and large guilds taking away content from players, than they need to create a pvp and pve server. Otherwise the game will be a niche game with maybe a playerbase of 100k if you are lucky. If steven is fine with only that many players and its enough to sustain the game until even those players get bored in a year or 2 then keep on the path of not listening to the community. Again I'm holding judgement until i play the alpha and given my feedback. I'm already invested until at least the endgame but majority of people aren't.
@@bobsmith-ov2ku So you spent 250$ on a potential failure? In Hope's they split the game into 2 different types of games, and where 1 of those version won't work with the systems in place that this video just literally explained to you? Good lord.
I think one issue with getting people to play these kind of games is that the kind of players that would probably enjoy them for the open world pvp, are already addicted to battle royales that mimic that gameplay without the tedious grind.
@@gamingtemplar9893 I never played Lineage 2 so I wouldn't know how it worked. There is no forced pvp in any game, but an open world rpg should have systems in plays that allows for fun, engaging and hectic interactions between players with a balance between risk and reward. In that scenario you could have a guild coalition of 100+ players sucking each others cocks or you could have some of the best pvp fights ever.
I know this is satire, but this is the perfect example of "I KNOW what an mmo is, it only has one definition! What so you mean 90% of the mmo audience doesn't enjoy that?! I enjoy that! They're wrong!"
When people throw arbitrary numbers around to look smart they only end up looking like dumbasses. Carebears are the minority. We corpse camped them all away years ago.
Think your comment on Asmond is slightly disingenuous. In a vacuum, if players are allowed to do what they want to other players without any consequences, they will make the gaming experience so bad that most people will just quit. Which is why the corruption system is implemented and exists. The big question is will the system work? Kind of like the Jurassic Park take on gamers instead of life: Trolls will find a way.
@@RelaxationandCalmingSleepSound The fact that you didn’t engage with my argument and just went straight to “Asmond bad, lol” makes me not take you seriously.
Thank you for putting it straight and clear. Also with all his flaws L2 did not die because his World PVP System.. That's what made the game great and fun to play. It was the uncontrolled big waves of Bots that stole everyspot to farm in the world that started its decline.
this game HIGHLY resembles black desert online and archage and they have failed so if they go this route that matches black desert and archage it will peak and fail fast
agreed. to me it looks like ashes is a game for a specific niche that isnt very popular. If you are making an mmo and not catering to casual pve players, your game will die or go f2p within a few months
The existence of Albion Online proves that PvP-MMOs can exist, though? And Eve Online has been alive ever since 2003. AoC doesn't need to have a huge audience like FFXIV or WoW. A smaller but tight-knit community is what some of us want.
@@dannyp9210 This is the exact opposite of what I want but I respect that I may be in the minority. I was hoping Ashes would be the new modern equivalent of WoW / FF that blew some fresh air in the genre but I think I’m taking the L
I'm willing to delve into any PVP MMO with the exception of full loot PVP. That's where I draw the line. If you can lose your gear by dying in PVP, I'm out, no discussion and no debate.
I'm afraid Asmongold has called it, the Elephant in the room of every pvp/pvx mmo... Given the chance, 7 out of 10 players will be asshats for shits and giggles. And it kills mmo's faster than balance & p2w combined. Archeage was already bad for grieving then p2w was the final death blow. If the punishment doesn't fit the crime (you got hung or life for murder, even in the dark ages) then the asshats will run riot not caring what happens to them. And yes. I see the cries that "they will be flagged and guards will attack, and their stats will suck... ok, all fine, but what happens when the server is full of SirPutski and his comrades (you know who I mean), all 100 of them, all flagged, all killing as they please. Can the 3 heros out for justice/bounty handle it? Or will the server just become a Hellhole no one wants to play on or join?? My cash is on the latter. This could make or break AoC imo. DAoC had the best way imo, dividing both but keeping it fun, so if you didn't want to some clowns fun for the evening, you just didn't go out into RvR lands.
It's so sad that only one controversy point, and not even about PvP itself, but about part of open world PvP led to such a wild flow of shit about smooth brains, low IQ and etc from sides that were actually mostly one side. Time is judge, but I'm frustrated that the two only worth watching content creators on subject can't handle a single minor disagreement.
Would a guild of murderhobos be effected by corruption. If you have 10-20 murderhobos- what amount of corruption would they have to have to stop them from murderhobo'ing?
I have to heavily disagree - I played EverQuest 1, one of the most hardcore MMOs ever. I dare anyone to call it out on not being heavily social and player interactive - you literally could not get anywhere past level 10 without some sort of help from other players. You played and died with the community. However, you know how many people enjoyed PvP in that game? Less than 5%
I've gotta say, even though I've played FFXIV for years (since 2013 2.0 launch) and have over 20,000 hours in it - the best content I have experienced in it is its MMO content - not the 8 or 24 man raids, not the hunt trains, not the story the 2 48 man raids, one of which needs outside help to progress further (and lets 8 players who helped you outside join you inside for the rest of it, making it 56man raid) The Eureka map series with I think 144 players per zone max - all grinding mobs to spawn bosses to kill those bosses, and that final Eureka area that allows you to do the public raid that I mentioned previously~ That was good MMO content. Oh and that raid had limits on resurrection - and the last boss literally flushed you out of it like a turd in a toilet bowl if you died to it - getting no loot if the group killed it cause you had been removed from the area already. I hope Ashes has that feeling in everything - high risk high reward - learn and try again.
imagine, that for every single 2 /48 man raids, you needed to do a quest to get inside the lobby room. Now imagine that for every single raid to be killed, you needed to fight with 3 other clans that have the same amount of people like your clan has. Now imagine after wining the fight you go inside the raid room and you earn the well deserved drop. THAT is the feeling that Lineage2 used to give us, nothing was for granted, you had to EARN the right to kill a boss. best feeling ever. !!!!
Open World PvP sounds good until you decide to just play for a few hours a day. The sweaty dudes who play 16 + hours/day get way ahead of you and in the end you end up not being able to play at all
you can jump on my comment here, it's all right. but from what i have seen playing a variety of mmo's (just my personal thoughts i realize) is that whenever game designers try to design what you are describing they forget something. they forget that some people out there just like to bully and grief other players. some people who play find the most delight in the game if they think they have harassed another player so much that the other player quits the game altogether. devs will implement systems to police this but the systems they create are for normal people - they ignore the player group i have just described and therefore the system fails. so go ahead and criticize me, but i have seen this repeated over and over again as various games say that they have 'the system' .
Too many conclusions being drawn about a system that hasn't been either implemented or tuned yet. Its nuts. World pvp can be great. Consequences and the ability to bypass them will determine how toxic it will get. Toxicity should be in the game. But only to a certain level.
@@gamingtemplar9893 Real toxicity is comments from people like you who are not trying to make game better, but they are trying to change game to suit well to themselves. And then they are pretending it is for the game's best interest. You are like swarm... everywhere in comments.
I'm for the constant state of pvp, I don't mind that risk of losing materials or losing a bit of time because some other players beat me that's how world pvp is. But Narc you did gloss over a very good point Asmon made about large dominating guilds. Whether they are the pvp elite diehards or (like the video he reacted to mentioned) even worse RMT guilds that just pour all their resources into ensuring they are the dominant group. People like these will be able to effectively lock out parts of the game with some of these systems in place. And we are supposed to what? "Just deal with it bro?" Or "Steven and his moderation teams will take care of them just report the players." Look I have all faith in Steven and Intrepid to create this game... But we know video games have been fighting against exploiters, RMT and toxic behavior for years and still they smear their shit across the game. The point Asmon was trying to make is not that the Developers are going to do a bad job at making their game, its that people are shitty and players are going to do everything they can to abuse the systems in game. Its an unfortunate reality of modern gaming, you give players an inch some are going to take it a mile. I believe Intrepid can make an amazing game, but I also know that the community will ruin it with any chance they get.
For you it might be ok but for people who can only play a few hours a day/week... different story. I know i wouldnt want to be wasting my only free time to play something evertime some sweatlord decides to start pwning. Its a matter of consideration thats all. Splitting pve and pvp servers would have 0 impact on the pvpers. Because the people who dont get pve would just leave... which means its only the pvpers left... so the outcome is the same 🤣
Which is why I like Classic Ragnarok Online. Boss Hunting is very competitive. You use a different class or gear for a certain type of monster you want to farm. You have to communicate with other people and strategize.
But you are actually misunderstanding what Asmon said. Use the actual word. Word matter. He didn't say interact he said everytime you give agency over. A company giving someone, you for example, the power to control the outcome of someone else gameplay *** without their consent *** is wrong. He didn't say interacting with someone else is wrong. It's the controlling others without consent that is wrong.
What's wrong with having PvP zones? Main world is PvE with lots of group and solo experiences. Then you have level specifications PvP zones for lower levels to practice and grow. And one big PvP zone for end-game with keeps and large-scale warfare. Best of both worlds, all on one server.
No PVE crowd = No substainable revenue = Dead MMO, I don't know how you can't see that bro. "At least we tried" is exactly what every other MMO that has had this model said, this is not their first time to this rodeo :|
@@playervyro Take a look at any of the existing ones, BDO, Lineage 2, even WOW Servers are basically dead, etc. All of these PVP communities are niche and small, no way they can support an entire game and future expansions/content with just them. They need PVE players to buy fancy skins and subscribe/buy things.
@@Nuh L2 die for anothers things bro what are u talking about.. BDO dead ? .. It's not to say that there aren't enough players who like the AOC system.. PVE players maybe 70-30
@@playervyro L2 lost a VAST amount of players on launch and shortly after, my entire guild left the game because the PVP was completely out of control. BDO is very small compared to the bigger 3, and yes, the PVE population is likely around 70% or maybe even more. Are you OK with losing that amount of players because of a small population of PVP'ers?
I'm glad people like pvp games... but you need to accept there is a reason all pvp mmo's die. And why they do so quickly. When other players are your content, the game *has no content*. About the only one to survive is EvE, and that's because it has very niche gameplay, and the playerbase is filled with people who are already literally insane. I.e its an exception, not the rule. Basically, as soon as you know the game is pvp focused, you know it will be toxic as all hell, and will eat its own userbase due to that toxicity. New player will leave, then existing players will leave because there's no influx of noobs to farm. Its a known cycle of failure hat is inescapable.
Hard disagree on this one, this reeks of too much copium for me. Now I'm worried the game is going to die on this hill and die like the other MMO's. =/ DAOC and Aion did it best IMO. These really confusing corruption systems are stupid and if its so detrimental why even have the forced pvp then? Having mostly safe pve areas and highly valuable pvp areas in Aion felt great, with the occasional rift invasion windows which was way more exciting and predictable for people wanting to avoid it. Still opens up some opportunity for griefing but it's way less common. That said, i'll still play it and enjoy the world pvp cause that's usually fun anyway until it's not anymore.
In its current state, any death can incur the following: Experience debt (negative experience). Skill and stat dampening. Lower health and mana. Lower gear proficiency. Reduction in drop rates from monsters. Durability loss. I don't mind PvP but the consequence to dying is just brutal even more so compared to BDO. This rewards the aggressor all the time. There's no incentive to avenge yourself after respawning, you're pretty much handicapped and there's no PVP after that.
I'm not saying that having separate pve and pvp servers are the answer or not, but for arguments sake let's say they considered it. If the game is not for everyone and pvp focused players are satisfied with (random number) 80k players, wouldn't those players hypothetically join the pvp servers anyway? Then you have (another random number, assuming pve players are the majority) 300k pve players joining pve servers. Wouldn't this essentially change very little for those on the pvp servers while also giving them the benefit of a large amount of pve players contributing to the profit margin of the game? Not sure if I explained that well but a part of me feels like if you just had separate servers then the pvp players will basically have the same community they are hoping to have. Sure there would be some extra development time to adjust things for the pve servers but you also potentially have a far bigger income coming from those player's subscriptions. Just some food for thought.
not even entertaining the idea of having pvp specific zones or servers is so fucking bad for the game, lol. you need casual players to sustain an MMO, especially a subscription based game of this scale. “it’s just not for you” won’t cut it when the game bleeds the majority of it’s players in the first month. how will the new player experience fare a year after launch, when all the ganking sweats are geared to the teeth and every node is locked down by mega guilds?
@@VyrilGaming Only time will tell. Was’t stating that I know anything about how the specific metrics of this game will play out, but hoping it’s enough to retain a large enough core audience to allow for a long term run.
I guess it entirely depends on the upkeep of the game, studio & salaries. If the game costs half as much as wow did at its height to keep going (Approximately 115m from 2004 - 2008) then they would barely be able to break even with a player base of 200k compared to wows 12 million. Narc mentions wows 12 million player base, but the game reached this height with optional PvP. I do seriously worry about ashes, but I do agree with Narcs take of "if it fails it fails" but that's easy to say when it's not our money being used to make it 😂
@@elryno5437 Yeah but Steven seems to be OK with it. Like its ridiculous to suggest throwing out a core premise of the game before we even hit persistent alpha and can test the corruption system.
@@daroaminggnome As mentioned in my previous reply, I'm not advocating for the redesign of the game. Nor will I. I'm merely querying whether Intrepid will live by the sword and die by the sword should the game become unsustainable if the majority share of players do not share the same love for gameplay that has PvP engrained in everything they do. Alas we will test and see what we think, my hope is that the majority will enjoy it, the corruption system works as designed and we all get what we want.
1st off, love the content. Secondly your hyperbole and sarcasm is not lost on me. However, to address a couple things, I don't think , a game is trash just because it's easy to pick up and put down and you don't have to invest hours and hours on learning a rotation, Or class building To enjoy the game at an acceptable level an acceptable level. I only have an hour or so a night to play video games, comma and I love the MMO style games and interacting with other players. But other players. I'm very casual and I don't like games that are hard or frustrating to play to play mainly because my life is already hard enough as it is lol.. Mostly due to my own life choices and low IQ. I don't play dark souls, but I am glad it exists and I'm glad people have fun with that game. It will probably be the same with ashes, I won't play it but I hope the game is successful for the niche that it is trying to cater to. As far as the Asmo Statement goes, comma hes not wrong 9 times out of 10 it doesn't work. I just hope that ashes is that 1 out of 10 that does work
The PvP will be much more nuanced in Ashes, With players picking a node to call home this in essence will give rise to independent 'factions' who will look to patrol and defend their territory. If systems are put in place to make communication between members of a node quick and easy, call outs of enemies and groups will be given for allied groups to go hunt. So locking down an area won't be as easy as people think. Now, if it is still possible to kill other members of your own node then that reduces the potential effectiveness of the entire situation which I think would be detrimental. Having played so many MMO's I can understand where this fear of griefing is coming from and I do see it having an effect on player retention, BUT it would all come down to how strict or severe the corruption system is. I fully agree that MMO's have lost the social feeling about them and they are soulless single player games, there will be hard lessons to learn by all of these players who refuse to adapt which is where the player retention loss will occur.
Patrolling would be a painfully boring and unrewarding experience, what benefit does the player have, walking around in the off chance of encountering a trouble maker? You dont get gold, skillups or exp patrolling.
@@Vihara2 True, but it's also an activity I know many of my friends will be doing. Putting even half an hour to check a few notable zones etc. Could also easily establish ourselves as a 'response' group if any allies or other members of our node are being hassled. My point being that there is nuance and to think of everything in a black or white frame means you miss all the colour inbetween.
@@Vihara2 Idk about patrolling but I'd expect bounty hunting to be fairly active. Getting to grief the griefers, steal their shit, AND get paid for doing it? I'd be shocked if that system has no effect.
@@daroaminggnome how do you find people who will just logoff after getting a good score though, bounty hunters would largely be successful only against lazy gankers, if you're gonna do any policing or bounty work that will net real results, you'd be better off with the sea content they got. From what ive seen thus far, once the metas set in, AoC will be an organised greifers heaven, multiboxing will allow a player to avoid most of the negative consequences of their behavior.
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Patreon: www.patreon.com/CopiumInhaler
to the asmon viewers, Please check Steven's personal response this this PVP the pvp issues (if you can be bothered):
www.twitch.tv/videos/1636867463?t=1h14m4s
You'll notice that Steven himself parrots exactly what I explained in this video.. so you guys need to just come to terms with the fact that I'm right and your bald man has unfortunately, forgotten what made MMORPGs so special.
It's ok that this MMO has PVP - However, these PVP systems, as explaiend in the video, are designed in a way that doesn't repeat the mistakes of the past. Please try to rub your 2 IQ points together and realise that.
We don't need Ashes of Creation to be the top MMO... Our Creative Director himself has made this clear it's not going to be. We're happy for it to be a game with 100k players and just 10 active servers. You guys have FF14, WoW and New World to enjoy. So you stick to your dull, boring, handholding singleplayer themepark garbage and let us adults actually have a meaningful, well made and social Massively Multiplayer Online Role Playing Game again.
pve carebears and pve bot farms will upgrade the node.... upgrading the node will enslave all nodes around it and they will become vassals who now will have to pay taxes and xp to their master. Vassals can not declare war against the master node. Ganking would be assymetrical war against their master, but the Corruption system will only make sure the slaves will become red players... the masters will bring their main characters and kill the reds and steal the loot. The corruption system creates a monopoly over violence and monopoly over violence only creates oppresion.
I fucking love crippling depression. I'm in.
I'm gonna be a carebear
in a pvp world.... I guess I will have a lot to learn - I'd rather have that than another New World or
Elden Ring. I still think the top tier nodes could be no-pvp though?
@@crazyblood.3633 hug?
finally someone addresses this point, was driving me mad listen to people with their flower picking delusions
"there are no memorable experiences that involve that singleplayer esque gameplay loop"
and thats just a flat out lie
Well that is Narc for you.
so ffxiv is trash because I don't want to run from town to town wasting 30 minutes?
the problem is if it doesnt have a few pure pve aspects that pve players can focus on they already lost 70% of the playerbase sadly... and im a pvp player...
There are enough players that like PvX, and many more will find out they do too.
@@VyrilGaming You’re simply wrong. I mean, the most popular MMO for the past year and change up until recently had effectively NO PvP whatsoever.
They want to make a PvP game, that’s fine, but don’t pretend it will have more than 200-300k players when we can look at the trends and see that won’t happen.
@@TheSpicyLeg Ashes already have over million pre registration and the game isn't even in beta, you would be surprised how many ppl want good pvp mmo
@@LastCrystal Well, the fact this creator felt like they needed to make a video explaining the game is not PvE suggest people don’t know much about it. I had no idea, either.
Besides which, we all know how MMOs work. While in development it gets hyped to the stratosphere. I wouldn’t be surprised if they have a million or more players at launch. Half of those people will disappear after the first month, and many more will in the following months. By 6 months you’ll have a better idea of how many people actually were interested in the game and not just riding the hype train and newness factor of an MMO launch. Given it is a PvP game, I think anywhere from 150-250k at that 6 month mark would be the best case scenario.
@@TheSpicyLeg sooooo… what is your problem? I don’t understand
"Players interacting with each other, is bad for the game." is not at all what Asmon said. If I cant play a game cuz another player keeps killing me without my opt in then Im not going to play long and neither is anyone else, even if you dont drop your shit when u die. If someone is killing you repeatedly with the goal of wasting your time and ruining your experience, then they will succeed. And it will kill the game in the long run.
I legit wanna see this guy play and have a bunch of people dedicated to hunting him down and taking him out every chance they get. See how much fun with "interacting with players" he has.
The internet and playerbase can be vindictive and spiteful as fuck, no matter what debuffs or consequences you put on them and the only way for you to be able to do literally anything else would be of some sort of protection put place.
@@denzelwright8475 yeah the protection is that person ends up losing their shit.
It's not just debuffs, but when you can end up losing your hard earned gear then you aren't going to be getting that many griefers.
As well you will get plenty of people like me who love to defend in wpvp from gankers.
@@umokwhy2830 Thats not protection, thats just risk and fear of possibly losing all your gear. What I said was, that type of risk and fear doesn't often stop people from making their life's goal to ruining your experience, at both of their's and your expense.
Not to mention that there are just lopsided battles. Someone kills you and you lose your shit. Cool, they still have all their stuff now plus your stuff and you have nothing. Whats then stopping his buddy from coming and wrecking your shit now that you have even less protection, and so on and so on.
Yeah it would be cute to form a band of cowboys to protect the weak, but real "player interactions" rarely works out that way. And you're also forced to focus solely on combat and protecting yourself instead of being the "artisan crafter" Narc said he was, to which point comes the argument that unless some protection are put in place then it might as well just be a pvp game. Which isn't a bad thing, just be real about what will/has actually happened.
@@denzelwright8475 except their ability to do that won't last for long without gear.
@@denzelwright8475 also you saying real player interactions don't work like that I can disagree because I knew plenty that did that.
Also, it is a pvp game. So not sure what your point there was
So the lifecycle of this game will look something like this:
The are the top pvp players and the bottom ones, the bottom ones - the losers will start leaving the game as it is not enjoyable experience for them. Now the people who used to win over the bottom losers become the bottom losers themselves and so on. You can see the problem with this design when for someone to win there must always be a losing side, however you love the pvp there is no fun being at the bottom of the feeding chain and if there is no compelling reason for that bottom to stick around, the player base will crumble.
It's good that it's not for "everyone" but it as to be for an healthy population of people if the game wants to trive or even just stay afloat. "It's not for you, you don't have to play" is not an argument because people will do just that and no one wants to play a dead or dying MMO
Yeah but the problem is trying to please everyone you end up making something so mediocre that it pleases no one.
I've played plenty of MMOs and honestly there's definitely an audience for this type of game.
Games for everyone aren’t even for everyone let that sink in
It feels pretty weird to be so against the statement of "allowing 1 person actions to entirely affect the gameplay experience of another almost always ends up poorly" and then talk about how much you love crafting.
What if we gave people the power to come kill you when you were crafting, what if you could be chained and dragged around, what if it was easy to destroy the crafting stations and you had nothing you could do about it, you dont think that is a negative player experience?
Players interacting is part of an mmorpg, but one player being able to fully control one or multiple people is not, getting corpse ganked repeatedly is not the same as saying high to a guy named bob over there.
-"But did they die because of the PvP or did they died because the P2W?"
They died because PvP focus MMORPGs are niche, the amount of players is not sufficient to sustain the MMORPG life cycle and patch content delivery needed, and therefore they add P2W to the game, some at release as they already know they will not get enough money from just selling fashion gear, and some add it later when they realize.
People who enjoy PvP, don't enjoy unbalance combat, and MMORPGs are all about having different character power. That's why some games try to add some PvP sync and other equalizer features. Fundamentally MMORPG PvP is flaw, people think they want it and then get frustrated when a player that spent double the time than them playing the game, can kill them 95% of the time they fight each other. Then they uninstall and go play PvP games like League of Legends because is more skill based and feels fairer. And if your response to that is: "Good, I dont want these players in the game" then you are part of the problem.
MMORPGs live and die by their casual community, when the hardcore community can and will attack the casual player because is an easy kill, and the casual player feels the few time they have to play the game is wasted, they leave, and with them, the big chunk of money they use in the cash shop, because they, the casuals, are the ones who buy more skins and fashion accesories. Hardcore players detest that stuff.
As long as the person with 15 hours a day can harass and kill easily players that enjoy the game casually, the game will not grow (after the expected decline post launch)
Following this open PvP approach, I expect this game to stay in a niche healthy community, servers will merge and close, but it will never be in the league of MMORPGs that release expansions every 2 years and patches every few months.
I agree with some things that Narc says here but for the majority he is trying to present his subjective views as objective facts, which is kinda weird when we all like different things.
Archeage was the best MMO with open world PVP. I like how it had safe zones for when you didn’t want pvp
So basically the same as it was in Tibia. Tibia enjoyers GIGACHAD
Archeage was amazing, I remember some fun boat fights and doing trade runs was actually fun because it was dangerous
Aye, ArcheAge did the OW-PvP part of the OW-PvP MMO well.
--> Starting zones are safe and unimportant, with lower end resources.
--> Conflict zones in between safe areas to avoid long, continuously safe areas.
--> All the seas are full PvP.
Meanwhile, it had a trading system where you carried packs (the goods) on your back/vehicles and those could be taken/stolen. Value was largely based on the nature of the pack (the more complicated to craft, the better) and the distance you wanted to go. Stay home in the safe areas? No problem, but your packs will be worth little. Want to make mucho dinero? Go intercontinental but you'll have to cross the oceans and risk everything.
A fantastic risk vs. reward system, which made room for carebears, adventurers and pirates alike, without favoring any. It also rewarded you for planning well and investing in your infrastructure (and OW MMOs should strive for that kind of long-term investment where you can improve your ships, strengthen your caravans, etc., etc.).
@@MrLuchenkov agree, the thing with archeage system is that it forced social interaction on its contents, playing solo in archeage will not take you far, its a lot more fun and worth it to do trade runs with guildmates who will guard you and your packs than if you are to do it solo.
Thats one thing i liked about the game, but at the same time i can see it being the con for other players
@@malborboss5710 no one knows what Tibia is LOL
As someone that hates open world PVP I will say your video has made me feel a bit better about it by elaborating upon the systems. But I am also aware and content with the fact that once this game comes out, open world PVP will be almost definitely be the reason I stop playing it. Such is life.
yeah. corruption *discourages* toxic pvp, but doesn't necessarily protect you from it, so i'll be interested in seeing just how much it discourages.
And that's fine. Not every game is supposed to be for everyone. I, for one, can't stand doing PvE for more than 20-30 minutes at a time and thus don't play GW2, FFXIV and a host of other MMOs.
More importantly, in the spirit of this video, I don't go on projects that are announced as PvE-centric and **demand** that they change their model to fit my playstyle, like oh so many "I can't stand PvP, I get clubbered to death if I step foot out of a protected zone and it triggers my PTSD" people do with EVERY. SINGLE. OW-PVP. MMO. that comes out or is announced.
I don't usually appreciate open world PVP in mmos, but I played desert online for a while, I can say that, to me, it wasn't such a big deal. There were a lot of moments where I had to fight people for spots, and I had to call guildies and this actually was fun because it grew from 1 person trying to duel me for sport, to a full on Guild vs Guild lol, it was really really entertaining and fun.
With that said, I think AoC as a model, is much better than BDO + the fact that you can literally hire mercenaries that can come do the dirty work for you.
Say you were on a spot, and you got griefed by someone; 1-2-3-4 times ( not sure about the number, needs testing and stuff ) but let's say after 4 times dying, the person griefing you, is not a full on red corrupted player.
1- he'll be flagged on the map for all the bounty hunters
2- you can advertise that whomever comes kill this guy on this location, you'll pay them X amount of gold ( extra incentive )
3- it'll be a really good motivator for you to learn your class more and become a better gamer.
Think about it from this perspective + the fact that you won't really experience too much toxic behavior, maybe you'll have 1-2 days / 2 weeks or so where you'll get angry and wanna smash keyboard, but the majority of the time, you'll be fine.
@@MrLuchenkov Yeah I get you. I just hope that the systems they're putting in place are actually effective at disincentivising griefing, because if the game becomes an absolute grief-fest then the game dies.
I remember playing BDO just chilling in the city ( I made some friends in my guild and we were almost always on discord together and stuff )
And then suddenly my friend on discord was like "man, man" come help me pleassseee someone griefing me.
( I was a 'good' ninja / assassin ) so I was like right on man, I'm on my way, went there and we started killing this dude off, then he called his friend, and it became 2v2 on that spot, we lost a lot of the times, but it was a really fun experience and I enjoyed it. Mind you, it was literally 0 rewarding for pvp, so it was only fun, no rewards / incentives to actually pvp lol.
Now imagine this concept, but my friend calling me "man man" there is this corrupted player here griefing me, come kill him and loot his gear.
You bet I'll be on my way xD hahaha
Narc describes the dream we all have. Asmon describes the reality we all live in.
It doesn't have to be the reality if people stop accepting garbage p2w
This comment is poetry. Thank you sir
Fucking 500 intellect comment
This comment sums it all up
Its very confusing to hear this old 40 something dude complain about "dad gamers" being casuals.
Oh Narc, you sweet little summerchild....
I will kindly disagree with pretty much everything that guy said
Soooo if wow, ff14 and such are trash mmo, wich of ashes kind of mmo, obtained their player number?
New world economy didnt die due to the pvp toggle, it died due to player being able to duplicate stuff
Sorry but forced pvp ist what the majority of mmo player want. I dont think it was the case even back then, people just didnt have other option. I mean if it was sooo popular, most of those game woulnt have died long ago.
Its ok for people to like and want the kind of mmo ashes want to be but its another to think all other kind of mmo are trash while they clearly the one that survived and thrived
I do hope ashes do well enough to stay alive for people that like that kind of game, i mean they should at least have one game they can have their fun in.
Agreed. It's not for everyone but it seems "everyone" wants it to be for them.
Wow.....that was well said.
I think it's less about wanting it to be for "them" and more about wanting a game to be successful and retain players so "they" have something to play longer than 3 months. Everyone knows the game will not be successful given the known current mechanics of the game. These systems already exist in other games and are not successful regardless of how hard people lie to themselves to pretend they are. Now I do agree steven should put out the game he wants and we'll see how it goes. but I mean look at Narcs reaction to Asmons take. Hes too stupid to realize Asmon is saying anytime you give a player the option to control another players experience it will be negative. He thinks Asmon is just saying interaction is bad. Just shows how dumb people actually are around this argument.
@@BlueMax717 EVE and BDO seem to be doing fine idk what you mean by "these systems exist and are not successful." And Ashes seems to be taking lessons from allot of these games to improve on it further.
@@spyfire242 exactly.
@@BlueMax717 Also I want to add that Narc knows exactly what Asmon is talking about and just calls it out for what it is, a bad take. Asmon lives in a World of Warcraft bubble where everything has to emulate how WoW is even though its been trash since WotlK and was never the only/best way to make an MMO.
An mmo without PVP can definetly be a real MMO. Maybe it's not what you want and i love open world PVP but i can also really appreciate runescape being an MMO and FFXIV being an mmo .
An mmo without PvP is an RPG with people around instead of NPCs.
Runescape has open world pvp.... in the wilderness, and on pvp worlds. People usually don't to the wilderness unless they want, to pvp, although there are quests and tasks that require the player to go to the wilderness.
How exactly do you expect this game to reinvigorate the MMO genre if it won't get a massive following? Even if we assume it won't crash and burn like other open-world PvP games have, it needs to be *extremely* successful to make any big waves in the game dev scene. You can't get that with a "90% MMO players won't play it anyway" mentality.
It's either the game with open-world PvP or a popular game that may change something. Choose one.
What makes an MMO alive are Solo, PvE, Casual, and Lifeskill players. Ashes of Creation isn't for those types of players, Ashes of Creation is for PvP Hardcore players, the extremely small minority. Ashes of Creation will follow New World's path, it will start big with 1M or maybe more players, and over 10 months will go down to 20k players. The difference is that New World "survived" out of the "carebear" players, the majority, while Ashes of Creation will have no one to sustain the damage. Saying Ashes of Creation will have 20k players after 10 months is a joke, the game will die because PvP Hardcore players are the smallest % of the MMO player base. Ashes of Creation is flawed, the game won't be a success and will suck more than New World sucked.
Yeah even in BDO most of players are still causual, housing, life skill, train horse fishing, gathering, ship craft, griding, farming, all of those resources.
not a lot of people cares pvp.
"Ashes of Creation is for PVP Hardcore players"
Bro... what are you talking about.... there is no "hardcore PVP" in Ashes of Creation... the whole game revolves around social gameplay and community, guild PVP and Lifeskilling.
@@Narc If the video tells me the game has its foundation around PvP, and allowing people to toggle on and off PvP would ruin the game, then you are telling me the game is PvP, pure and simple. Despite the developer saying it's a PvX game, it's actually a PvP game.
It's wild nearing someone decry all the systems that made MMOs more popular than ever being accused of "killing the mmo." Yeah, you can go overboard with remote queue systems like garrisons, but toggle pvp and dungeon finders are a big part of what made MMOs accessable enough to get this popular.
So basically if I'm not interested in pvp in any capacity I should just ignore this game. Got it. No sarcasm.
I think you are actually misunderstanding asmon's take. The the way I understood him was that he was just saying if you can impact someone experience negativity by exploiting mechanics its a bad gameplay mechanic with nlt a lot of time, which would take profits away from the game, which then might lead to less content being funded. Not that interaction was bad general. Which I think is a valid opinion.
As someone who plays pvp almost exclusively in mmos, I think forcing people to pvp who don't want to pvp is a terrible idea and will quickly drive people away. PvP players are in the minority of mmo players. PvP should be consensual. People won't care that there are consequences to ganking others; they will do it because it's funny to them. Games are for enjoyment and you should be able to participate in whatever content you prefer. Mass open world pvp is a joke: it's literally just a spam of abilities with zero skill involved. Some people like that, and having that be an option is great. Just don't force people into it. The times where you get an open world fight in a fair way are extremely rare. Usually it's just someone (or multiple people) ganking someone who is trying to do something else and is at a disadvantage. This whole "golden-age" of mmos where everything was perfect is a myth. There has always and will always be issues in some form or another. People look back fondly at their earlier days of playing mmos because it was a new and unique experience that no other type of game offered. It was basically one of the first ways to hang out with people you didn't know from the comfort of your home while working towards a common goal. There are many things wrong with current mmos but magically trying to do away with all convenience (aka: wasting peoples' time) and forcing people to do things they don't want to do is a recipe for disaster. That's just...like... my opinion.. man.
2022 guide to YouTubing:
>Make flamboyant claim
>Make your audience feel superior to others
>Flame a more popular TH-camr
>Cherry pick a single example
>Scream Cope when someone disagrees
Arguments here used to be thought out and well explained. Maybe you have a leak in the copieum stash?
Those who do not heed the lessons of MMO history are doomed to repeat it.
Narc your copium cannot stop the truth!
I have played hardcore PvP games such as Ultima Online in its peak. Such games depend on the wolf, sheep and guard dog mentality to operate, and this is unsustainable nowdays. There are alternatives for the sheeps, and they just wont bother staying around just so 5% of the player base can have their fun at the sheep's expense.
We live in strange times when expecting people to play together in an MMO is unsustainable.
@@paintspot1509 You missed his point, by quiet far actually, his point is that "expecting people to [replace your generic mob NPC] is unsustainable"
@@paintspot1509 We live in strange times when expecting people to play [Grief players with less vested interest] in an MMO is unsustainable.
Throwing my own two cents in the ring, I'm staying hopeful for AoC and it sounds like it has an in-depth crafting system that I can absolutely sink my teeth into. That being said, I hope it's corruption system does a great job because the last time I tried a PvP MMO (Mortal Online for reference) it had relatively great gathering and processing and good looking crafting but the problem was you had people stationed literally outside the starter town who would just cut you down whether you had anything of value or not. Even when one of the larger guilds ran them off and us newbies could escape and start the game, trying to do anything as an artisan was completely pointless. Get saddled down with a ton of rock to try and process and refine to, you know, be a crafter, and randomly get merc'd every other minute on your way back to town. After getting killed over 30 times in a couple of hours, literally wearing starter gear and a ton of rocks....I was like, you know what? I'm going to go find a game that respects my time and where people have human decency. Left that sh**show and never looked back.
What I can almost guarantee is if the system is being exploited like that at launch the devs will fix and change it. But I think these things will all be solved in public alpha 2 and beta testing.
This is one of the main reasons why I am even more invested into a game, and I get even more ambitious to get better gear in game, farm, tryhard and at the end take my revenge on the players that did camped me or killed me. This is one of the best reasons I love open world PVP. If somebody killed me and trolled me I am even more focused on farming and getting to a point where I can payback what I own to them, sweet, sweet revenge.
I agree with you, but I also am a solo player mostly. The thing is.. my ideal solo experience is being part of a dynamic world with player factions I can freely join and fight with or break off and do my own thing. I like being solo, then seeing a friendly player getting chased by gankers, jumping in to help that player, and then parting with a simple thankyou and good luck. These are the sort of interactions I want games to provide for solo players. Not closed off insntanced single player or PvE only content.
I’ve been a solo/duo PvP player in Elder Scrolls online and I hope that in Ashes if you can get good enough you’ll be able to win outnumbered fights.. If not I have a ton of friends coming to Ashes from ESO so if it’s more group focused we have 8 years or so of pent up ESO rage to unleash on the entire server.
Basically you want to be an NPC inside a game.... thats what i gather. You dont want to play with people, you want them to exist in the server like some kind of potential event and in the case you meet them and interact with them via combat you part your ways by saying good luck.... Thats not what MMORPG is.
@@DJ-hr5ng An MMO can be whatever the player wants it to be, not up to you. Not your job to tell everyone what an MMO is
@@mattloveless3542 and they have said many times this game isn’t for everyone.
@@mattloveless3542 Words actually have meaning, you know.
I honestly don't think this video does this game a favour. PvE players are the majority of any community, and no full-PvP MMO has ever succeeded. Pushing people away before the game has been released, isn't the smartest move, your Copeness.
PvE players/servers ruin group play/content
@@martinmustermann7523 PvE is the foremost group content tho'... Most of PvE (professions are not PvE as there's no versus included) requires a group. PvP can be done solo quite effectively.
Being a L2 fan for 7 years, I'd love to see ashes improve upon the L2's corruption system and truly create a system that is too hard to game/grief, but in my opinion Asmon and Ghost have a point in that being "not for everyone" could hit the Ashes team hard, big team needs big money to pay salaries and to create big and content rich expansions and help the game live year after year. It's very likely that without the "average dad gamers" this game just won't have enough revenue streams to keep it alive. My only hope is that they make the corruption system so rigid, that it would be too hard to try and game it.
Atleast 1 way to play around the corruption system exists right now - just have a party of 8 attack a party of 2 and harrass them without killing, waiting for them to leave or become flagged and kill them afterwards. With that said, I like the Lucky Ghost's idea to make a "Harass meter" that will slowly go up as you attack the same player without him responding back, and if you attack him too much, you'll go corrupted without even killing him.
I also think they need to tune down the death penalties for non-combatants, as for some players, just knowing that by killing you , they will get a few of your resources, make you get an exp debt, have reduced stats and reduced drop rates is good enough reasong to gank you and get corrupted and just work it off later with their group of friends guarding them.
Yep. It takes a serious overdose of copium to think Steven has out thought griefers with a few system tweaks. Alpha 2 will probably show up the weaknesses in the systems they have devised.
@@BulldustHHH Which is a good thing because it makes the team confront the issue. I think letting it play out how people think it will is a good thing.
I don't agree with you entirely, many kids nowadays did not even experienced a TRULLY open world PVP MMO. All MMO's that came up in the past few years and instanced, single player, trash games. If they would have a chance, they would know what MMO was back in the days when we where young, and many of them will love it. I was a kid when I started playing Lineage 2 back in the days, and making friendships, gathering for PVP with my clan, guild was amazing times, probably best times I ever had in a game.
@@BulldustHHH It will not show the problem because you know who actually plays the alphas its the copium riddled players who sees no wrongs.
@@AlexOltyan No they wont, fortnite, league, COD etc. is popular because you are all on the same playing field with rankings and so on. The rounds are short enough usually to start again a couple of times. MMOs are not short most times new players or none NEETS will not ever get on top. Unlike MMOs other games where every round is a new round and a chance of winning.
The fact you act like you're speaking on the behalf of Intrepid studios is incredible egotistical. This is classic gatekeeping. I agree that there are a lot of problems with modern MMOs. On the flip side most modern MMOs have some really good aspects and features in them that AoC will most likely be built off many of those elements. To sit there and say that this game isn't for 90% of MMO players is like the idiots who say Dark Souls is, "such hard game" and "only real gamers should play it."
Steven, the AoC developers and rest of the team are not sitting there saying, "if you don't like our game get fucked." Nor are they saying, "you know all those other MMOs, they're fucking garbage." I really doubt they appreciate you going around telling people that they won't like AoC. The whole point of AoC was to bring back certain elements of older design but it's not like they won't have modern elements to the game.
Just like with the Josh Stife Hayes thing it feels like you're just trying to drum up controversy. Not surprising as there's not much to talk about with AoC. So maybe you've won this round anyways. Either way I won't be watching anymore of your videos.
I probably will play AoC if and when it comes out. That will be in spite of gatekeeping weirdos like yourself.
The thing your missing though narc and why asmon is actually correct…. “Warmode” kills world pvp in games its in simply because MOST players don’t want world pvp. The idea of it sounds very appealing and exciting but in reality most people just get annoyed when their time is wasted dying to someone higher level than them while trying to get a quest done. The majority of players want to pvp on their terms in a “fairer” way (queuing into a pvp match). If this wasn’t the case then “war modes” wouldn’t kill world pvp as everyone would leave it on. You’re in a minority I’m afraid and sure that may change in the future with better incentives in games to world pvp but until then games with always on world pvp will alienate the majority of players.
now we dont know what ashes of the creation is gonna do but the entire new world section was completely wrong
new world was completely broken on release and that had literally nothing to do with the pvp flag system
I don't HATE the idea of open world PvP, even though I'm not huge on PvP, because I haven't ever played a PvP-always-on type of MMO. I will say I feel a little bit better now, knowing that if you literally just don't ever attack another player, you at least won't lose any gear. If I'm just trying to do some PvE and I get killed by a random and lose all my shit, I'm not going to be playing that game for very long.
Well you can still lose materials and experience/durability I think? You definitely don't wanna just die either. I'm sure all that is open to changes/adjustments.
Overall disagree, especially the take that new world economy died was because of toggle pvp. Duping and economy curve inherent in the game was main issues.
The deflation in New World, was mostly due to too many money sinks, and not enough income sources. Narc just doesn't care about what it true.
Why haven’t open world PvP games taken off as of late? Why do theme park MMOs seems to dominate the space while games like MO2 or other open world hardcore PvP games seem so niche?
It think what asmon meant is that if people have agency over other in game, 9/10 they will have fun at others expense . If given the opportunity, the shitters will already create that quit moment more than amicable players will inspire people to stay.
I play mo2 and i love it but its failing more because of bugs, releasing unfinished, content promised but not delivered, criminal system is kinda weak. I don't think it is doing badly because its full loot PvP, I think its doing badly because its not doing it well
@@TheSteadyeddieShow I agree that bugs and un-finished state of the game. And I agree with you second statement of it not doing full loot well. The appetite for large scale consumption of full-loot opera world PvP is there, its just the populations will never be as big as those who prefer theme park or “care bare” experiences. I can see it now. Ashes pulls in millions of people the first couple weeks, but the second that the person who mains WoW, New World, ESO, FFXIV, etc, gets their equipment or inventory poached by open world PvP, they’ll quit. And when numbers drop below 50K, people will claim “dead game” because AOC is supposed to me the “WoW Killer”.
This video is a testament to why open world pvp mmos usually fail. Throwing around insults like carebears, solo player trash, etc. gives you an outlook on the player base attitude of mmo pvp'ers towards other players and probably towards one another. It's gonna be toxic Who's gonna enjoy that?
And let's be true here: 99,9 % of mmo pvp'ers suck at pvp, that's why they want to play compulsory mmo pvp which is not based on skill, but on level and gear. If you really enjoy pvp on a level playing field, you'd play fps , br's or bg's.
When you eliminate the casual player base from your game, because you want to cater to the rather small audience of hardcore players, who can invest 8+ hours per day into the game, you won't break even. That's why I believe zone based pvp and/or purpose based pvp is more enjoyable in an mmo, than any undirected open world pvp, which most of the time ends up in grieving or gank fests, no matter what kind of "corruption mechanic" or whatever you implement.
Narc comes across as if he's better than 90% of the mmorpg crowd. Complete egotist.
Regardless of how they explain it (pvx, pvasfafaas .... or whatever), if they can't make the game fun for what the majority of players style will be (casuals) it will die....period. Believe it or not, pvp fans or hardcore players, do not represent the majority which bring in the subscriptions a game like this needs to thrive. Because of this, Asmongold is unfortunately right. If you create a game which will only bring frustration to the casual player who represent the majority of players, the game will die. This is why WOW survived for so long. WOW had everything of both worlds. Hardcore content and solo pve content galore. A new game can not provide so much content to satisfy both worlds from launch, so the masses need to be satisfied first. They will only push those masses away with unwaranted/uninvited PVP that only translated into frustration for the casual player.
All MMOs need to be PVE focused with a dash of PVP or they fail.
Nah.
I supported the original Kickstarter for AoC because it was going to fix the problems we saw in ArcheAge. As long as the core of the game maintains the good aspects, I'll be fine. I was mainly PVE/Carebear in AA, but my ambition was to do stuff that others didn't want to try. Like building a car mostly by myself while being free-to-play, and getting the Quantum Mechanic title. I'm still hopeful after all this time for AoC because I know what the original dreams were and can't wait to see it realized.
As a PvE player in MMOs (I go to strategy for my PvP), I cannot overstate how much I disagree with everything you said in this video. This video felt like a twitter user trying to force its beliefs down my throat like facts, using words like "dumb", insulting the intelligence of those with different preferences than you, and using conflicting viewpoints to state that things that have happened in MMOs somehow didn't happen. But at least the video was way better put together than a tweet. So at least hearing someone insult me for 20 minutes for finding different things fun than him was done in an entertaining way. I guess I can live with that.
P.S. You're very good at using caps to replicate your manner of speaking via text.
I don't fully agree with your take, but why does Steve and even the game desperately want to try to be for everyone?
My very first MMO (Legend of Mir) that I played when I was 12, was completely open world, PvP, no instances for bosses...nothing. Good old school 56k modem gameplay...The tech was not there for instances.
Was there ganking? Yes. Was there griefing? Yes.
Still the most fun i've ever had on a game lol. I am so ready for AoC.
Oh I totally agree! I remember it be annoying but the revenge 🤛✌️👌👌👌😄
what was fun 20 years ago as a 12 year old may not be fun anymore today
and it's dead now
Interesting. Where is that game now?
Well, if they choose to keep pvp always on, at least you'll be able to enjoy knowing everyone on the server by name. Very cozy, close-knit community ;)
If Ashes of Creation is a PvP game, it is unfortunately doomed to fail.
8:53 Removing consent between the player and there character is just bad design. If a player gets ganking while they want to farm, that is going to feel good.
Its like you queue up for payload and now you have to play diamond king of the hill.
Also in pvp stuns that do remove players characters, and they are super fucking hard to balance because of how powerful it is. The plasma pistol in halo has a big fuck me light, makes load noise slows you down only works on vehicles. And after all that its still good. Because of how powerful a stun is. OW2 had to remove a lot of stuns because of how powerful they where.
So no. Removing consent between the player and there character for a social interaction isn't always good in multiplayer games.
Ice psyches suck even in singal player games because it takes away control.
If you would like to find out a lot about player consent, id recommend watching Flats spectate bronze in OW. Because his critics gives a lot of insight.
The game is not for everyone, and it will die, which is ok. :) It seems pretty obvious that learning from the past isn't our strong suit.
Pretty much every game that advertised itself as not for carebears (or any variation thereof) failed miserably soon after. Everyone thinks they'll enjoy a cutthroat environment, until everyone who's worse than them at pvp leaves the game.
Well, this kind of MMOs died, dying, or have PVE servers for a reason. Most people won't be looking to get their time wasted in this type of games. Doing the same thing (even improved) but expecting a different result is exactly why open world PKs are in the place they are now.
Lets not kid ourselves here. Every MMOs do need carebears and casuals to maintain it, thats the main source of revenue. There is no system to absolutely prevent griefing. Players will find a way to bypass it pretty fast, even more so with a lot of freedom. The best hope is to minimize it to the minimum.
--------
FFXIV is popular because it has almost no player interaction?
That is actually wrong on so many levels. It has, tons of it, but barely forced outside of duty roulettes and finder.
FFXIV actually has the most diverse communities within the game community ive ever seen in any MMO.
It has; Raiders, PVPers, gatherers, crafters, optimizers, fashion designers, event organizers, roleplayers and ERPers, Mahjong masters, triple triad collectors, mount collectors, dancers and performers, The Lominsans, house designers, cafe-restaurant-theater owners, fishers, musicians, hunters, treasure hunters, lore masters, puzzle solvers, FATE trackers, modding, and casuals.
They even created their own websites and stuffs for other players to use. Some players are also belong in several communities at once.
Conflict is not the only significant interaction players can have in a MMO anymore. Once an openworld PK game realized that, i believe it can have the best of both worlds and finally prosper. The same core design and griefing preventions, but a lot more space for carebears and casuals. To be honest, a MMO can be much greater with a lot of passionate carebears.
In short; same core, improve the core, and have a lot of non-power related but also meaningful relaxations away from combat. Do the ground work for community building.
There is a reason why games are more themepark. Because it works... It draws in players, it gives people different ways to spend their time and if the developers are good, they provides a steady flow of content to keep people coming back. You can't call all these different mmos garbage when they have millions of players happily playing everyday while you sit here hating on people who enjoy things that you don't. PvP do get shafted in most cases, mostly because companies see more profit in appealing the broader audience and/or too lazy to update all their content. However lets be real here, the goal of pvpers isn't to compete. It's to dominate. Imagine if any major league sports didn't have season resets. So all the sponsors, interviews and merchandise deals always went to the top teams while any new teams are forced to struggle until they can get a record comparable to the best team. Domination eliminates competition which leads to a consumption of resources to gain strength. If you don't want mechanics to limit your enjoyment, you guys need to chill and allow players to progress. I understand pvpers are starving for a game that fulfills their needs but they will be sharing this space with players who don't find enjoyment in the same way. Not saying you have to become a "carebear" but don't overhunt your prey. You guys shouldn't be content with just a place to call home. You guys should want the game to succeed, grow and draw in different players who may just enjoy the same type of gameplay. Instead of telling people why the games they enjoy are trash, perhaps you should focus more what AoC has to offer and help alleviate any worries people may have. I think Jahlon of PGN does a pretty good job at this although he seems to be a lot more jaded and antagonistic lately.
This debate is terrible to begin with since its just a collection of reactionary videos narrating why they believe the other side's opinions are trash. You'll notice that when pvpers talk to their audience, they refer to AoC as a PvP game but when talking to everyone else its PvX. Let me squash this debate right now. Time has shown what works with an mmo and PvPers lost that battle. Games grow a more healthy player base with cooperative play and competition was relegated to instanced experiences. That doesn't mean pvp should be put in a box. That simply means pvp only experiences are a niche in the space. AoC isn't a PvP only experience but it will be more prevalent in the core of it's design. As long as the different types players support each other and help each other out, everything will be fine. It's everyone's space so lets enjoy it together. Instead of prevent people from putting stuffed rabbits into the man cave, just destroy the rabbits and give them tips on how to hide them better next time.
As long as griefing is limited just like in BDO im okay with open world pvp, if you want more than that then have fun with the dead servers.
So why would I ever flag myself for PvP? What's to gain? Sounds like a way to just punish people.
The better question is why wouldn't you?...
Literally what is the point in lvling a character if you are not going to pvp. Pve will always be trash because AI is stupid.
Gonna have to say, "Naaahhhhh," to most of these takes, but I am looking forward to a successful risk vs reward system in Ashes.
I remember playing Aion and Tera back in the day. The open world PvP and ganking is what got me into PvP in the first place. Aions take was a bit different as portals into the enemies faction held land would only open at certain times. It was always a blast getting ready to defend "the homeland" when enemy invaders were about to rush through portals.
Aion is my favorite pvp game. The best part isn't even the portals, it was the Abyss Ranking. I got to Governor for a month, it was stressful but what a rush! You could tell those that were good by ranking. And high-rankers went after high-rankers, mostly ignoring the noobs. Griefing happened but quickly got boring without rewarding fights. And the transformation felt awesome!
@@joshanonline the abyss was awesome! The fact you could fly everywhere was very cool.
oh yeah, I remember Tera, the PvP server Mount Tyrannies was the most popular server for yearsssss. Had the best PvPers and PvEers. Got dam that was a great game
I loved so fucking much Aion. It was the best MMO ever
I've had plenty of fun in MMOs playing solo. In FF14 I grinded out the Kirin mount by myself. Soloing bosses on extreme was fun, the earlier bosses were hilarious because they had phases where they turn invincible but killing them so fast that they skip that phase completely was great. Figuring out the fastest way to kill them was fun. Then when I watched the cutscene where Kirin comes to you I took a screenshot to show my friends in the guild in discord. I was one of the only ones too go through the trouble of getting the mount.
I did the same, and then went for the firebird. Some of the trials are almost as easy as for the kirin mount, but some others you will actually have to start mechanics for. Next thing im going to solo are the kamuis. Won't be easy and I'm not sure all extreme trial bosses from stormblood are solo-able, but some can definitely soloed using warrior or paladin. Love the challenge.
Eh...I always used to gravitate towards PvP MMOs/servers in the past and open PvP never ends up being as interesting as people try to make it sound. It always devolves into random, gankfests. And people always find a way to game the karma/anti-griefing systems.
Nothing wrong with a pvp focused game, the only problem is when pvp players gate keep other players from in game content. There are some days I want to pvp all day, and other days, I just want to chill while cutting down some trees or fishing. I do believe the corruption system in AoC looks promising and honestly, will have to see how the open world pvp works before making my final judgement. I just hope, for AoC sake, that it doesn't end up being a dead pvp game.
if the pvp is dead the game is dead, its built entirely on pvp, like EVE online.
@@spyfire242 and EVE is a trash game and is P2W. Exactly the point. lol
@@BlueMax717 Well its definitely gotten worse over the years but I'd say its been overall successful and created some of the most memorable moments in gaming.
@@BlueMax717 Saying EVE is "trash" immediately discredits your opinion lol
@@sicarius8900 it averages 3k players..lol.. hot tub streams get more interaction..move along kid. stop repeating dumb crap your favorite streamer says..
This MMO is not for 90% of players yet AoC is how MMOs are _'supposed to be made'?_ Sounds like a paradox to me.
Also players having agency of another w/o consent ≠ players generally interacting with each other. That's a false equivalence.
When someone says that _"insert X"_ has lost its soul, I'm just waiting for the rug pull. It's just a disingenuous statement, or how I've seen it used in the past.
Another false equivalence would be the strange language about why WoW had 12 mil players back in WotLK. That expansion was the natural conclusion to their previous warcraft games. It had nothing to do with PvP, pay-to-win, monetization, etc. If anything, WotLK made WoW more into a single player game with the LFG tool.
Before I would just chuckle at the absurdity of Narc's videos, now I paid a bit more attention to the words he used because my hype kind of died. Lots of logic problems here. Oh well.
Bad video, goes on entire rant that people claim gains and ruin them to their standard. Than does exactly the same by claiming it and outlining what would make it good / bad .......FOR YOU
FF14 literally forces you to team up with other players to tackle content. There's more player-to-player interaction in one raid than you can get in weeks of solo play pvp. To say a MMO needs PVP to be considered a MMO is just stupid.
truth be told. 99% of people making their oppinion known online, have no fucking idea what they are talking about, it's as simple as that, it applies to every topic, it's like a law of the universe.
I love both pvp and pve contents or say the pvx design that Intrepid told us at least for now, in any type of online game the most thing I hate is that players use the game design flaws to do very very toxic things to other players ruining their game experiences just because those toxic players think making other players to quit the game is a fun thing to do as their purpose while playing the game, I hope Intrepid will try their best to prevent those extreme toxic things no matter from pvp or pve perspective.
Hope he watches asmongold response video that disputed all his wrong takes. This guy need a reality check. There’s no value walking 2 hours from point A to B. Average people have lives. If the game fail, it’s not “at least we tried.” Those people spend millions of $ investing and developing the game. Want a game that won’t have hundred thousands of players and be profitable to continue its development? Dude stay high on copium. WOW had 12 million during wotlk because there’s PVE servers. Go make and invest your own dead PVP MMORPG.
Asmongold haven't played a non theme-park "MMO" in his life except for Black Desert, which is kinda shite. His takes are constantly dumb as fuck and very modern "MMO" centric.
@@MATCHLESS789 lmao name a non theme park mmorpg that’s not on life support or dead and see who has dumb takes.
@@MATCHLESS789 Can’t name one or have any compelling arguments. Lmao as expected you’re a fking joke. Wow, ffxiv, lost ark, and even new world with its most recent updates. Thank god new world didn’t listen to retards like you. Go crack a cold one and stay high on copium while I fk your mom. Stay cucked on trash mmo
@@MATCHLESS789 save your breath mate, these spergs are completely deluded corporate shills
@@Narc hope no one cuts your life support bud, you need it
Like the famous bald man said, If you don't prevent ganking and griefing and people feel like they aren't having fun, they will just leave and you will be left with a dead game. Before people say I'm a carebear I have paid for Alpha access and I'm very much looking forward to the PVP in the open world of this game, but it has to be done right. Games like crowfall and others died quickly because they catered to a small niche playerbase who can't sustain a game. If you want this game to be successful and to see expansions down the line, you have to cater to everyone. I will be critcizing the PVP in this game once I play it if I think for a second big guilds/griefers have a chance to ruin it for everyone.
Sure, tweaking and refining the systems is what should happen to curb griefing, but you can't remove owPvP or stunt it.
I have been playing MMOs forever, since their inception and while PvP can be fun, making the game built around pvp, means it will fail. I mean open world pvp games just don't do as well as their PvE counterparts. There have been many surveys taken and most end up lower than 30% of the fan base partakes in PvP and 1/3rd of them play it competitively, eg rankings, arenas, ladders etc. So the hype for me has died.
@@puppethound Fail? Which games failed? What metric is considered a failure?
@@VyrilGaming If they can't strike a balance for both PVE players and PVP players because of griefing and large guilds taking away content from players, than they need to create a pvp and pve server. Otherwise the game will be a niche game with maybe a playerbase of 100k if you are lucky. If steven is fine with only that many players and its enough to sustain the game until even those players get bored in a year or 2 then keep on the path of not listening to the community. Again I'm holding judgement until i play the alpha and given my feedback. I'm already invested until at least the endgame but majority of people aren't.
@@bobsmith-ov2ku So you spent 250$ on a potential failure? In Hope's they split the game into 2 different types of games, and where 1 of those version won't work with the systems in place that this video just literally explained to you? Good lord.
I think one issue with getting people to play these kind of games is that the kind of players that would probably enjoy them for the open world pvp, are already addicted to battle royales that mimic that gameplay without the tedious grind.
@@gamingtemplar9893 I never played Lineage 2 so I wouldn't know how it worked. There is no forced pvp in any game, but an open world rpg should have systems in plays that allows for fun, engaging and hectic interactions between players with a balance between risk and reward. In that scenario you could have a guild coalition of 100+ players sucking each others cocks or you could have some of the best pvp fights ever.
I know this is satire, but this is the perfect example of "I KNOW what an mmo is, it only has one definition! What so you mean 90% of the mmo audience doesn't enjoy that?! I enjoy that! They're wrong!"
no satire here, Narc is just high on copium and fanboying the game he never played
When people throw arbitrary numbers around to look smart they only end up looking like dumbasses. Carebears are the minority. We corpse camped them all away years ago.
Think your comment on Asmond is slightly disingenuous. In a vacuum, if players are allowed to do what they want to other players without any consequences, they will make the gaming experience so bad that most people will just quit.
Which is why the corruption system is implemented and exists. The big question is will the system work?
Kind of like the Jurassic Park take on gamers instead of life: Trolls will find a way.
@@RelaxationandCalmingSleepSound The fact that you didn’t engage with my argument and just went straight to “Asmond bad, lol” makes me not take you seriously.
Thank you for putting it straight and clear.
Also with all his flaws L2 did not die because his World PVP System.. That's what made the game great and fun to play. It was the uncontrolled big waves of Bots that stole everyspot to farm in the world that started its decline.
This! I said the same thing... It seemed like they wanted to blame the pvp for why l2 died. Bots,RMT, and really bad patch decisions killed lineage 2
Every time I see an EX Lineage 2 comment, my eyes are filled with happiness, because 90% of the comments are exactly what I would have said.
this game HIGHLY resembles black desert online and archage and they have failed
so if they go this route that matches black desert and archage it will peak and fail fast
All well and good but this game will massively flop if PVE is ignored in favour of PVP
agreed. to me it looks like ashes is a game for a specific niche that isnt very popular. If you are making an mmo and not catering to casual pve players, your game will die or go f2p within a few months
The existence of Albion Online proves that PvP-MMOs can exist, though? And Eve Online has been alive ever since 2003. AoC doesn't need to have a huge audience like FFXIV or WoW. A smaller but tight-knit community is what some of us want.
@@dannyp9210 This is the exact opposite of what I want but I respect that I may be in the minority. I was hoping Ashes would be the new modern equivalent of WoW / FF that blew some fresh air in the genre but I think I’m taking the L
@@OfficialAdamRoss it has open world pvp that you cant toggle on or off so its never really gonna reach those heights.
@@peterlopez2388 God that is so dumb, why are they doing this?
you and asmongold just need to get a room already. MY GOD...
I'm willing to delve into any PVP MMO with the exception of full loot PVP. That's where I draw the line. If you can lose your gear by dying in PVP, I'm out, no discussion and no debate.
“The karma works well in BDO” 😂😂
Could be the hunger making you delusional… good luck!
I'm afraid Asmongold has called it, the Elephant in the room of every pvp/pvx mmo... Given the chance, 7 out of 10 players will be asshats for shits and giggles. And it kills mmo's faster than balance & p2w combined. Archeage was already bad for grieving then p2w was the final death blow.
If the punishment doesn't fit the crime (you got hung or life for murder, even in the dark ages) then the asshats will run riot not caring what happens to them. And yes.
I see the cries that "they will be flagged and guards will attack, and their stats will suck... ok, all fine, but what happens when the server is full of SirPutski and his comrades (you know who I mean), all 100 of them, all flagged, all killing as they please. Can the 3 heros out for justice/bounty handle it? Or will the server just become a Hellhole no one wants to play on or join?? My cash is on the latter. This could make or break AoC imo.
DAoC had the best way imo, dividing both but keeping it fun, so if you didn't want to some clowns fun for the evening, you just didn't go out into RvR lands.
It's so sad that only one controversy point, and not even about PvP itself, but about part of open world PvP led to such a wild flow of shit about smooth brains, low IQ and etc from sides that were actually mostly one side. Time is judge, but I'm frustrated that the two only worth watching content creators on subject can't handle a single minor disagreement.
Would a guild of murderhobos be effected by corruption. If you have 10-20 murderhobos- what amount of corruption would they have to have to stop them from murderhobo'ing?
THIS ^^^ like what if someone made a guild solely devoted to making Narc's game a living hell. You'd want those pvp protections or "opt-out" then.
Time Stamp 15:00 ; AoC not for everyone not even 90% of the modern MMO RPG player base. Well Best of Luck AoC with the other 10%.
Steven's ideas have all being tried and failed 20 years ago. Game is dead on conception, not even on arrival.
I have to heavily disagree - I played EverQuest 1, one of the most hardcore MMOs ever. I dare anyone to call it out on not being heavily social and player interactive - you literally could not get anywhere past level 10 without some sort of help from other players. You played and died with the community.
However, you know how many people enjoyed PvP in that game? Less than 5%
I've gotta say, even though I've played FFXIV for years (since 2013 2.0 launch) and have over 20,000 hours in it - the best content I have experienced in it is its MMO content - not the 8 or 24 man raids, not the hunt trains, not the story
the 2 48 man raids, one of which needs outside help to progress further (and lets 8 players who helped you outside join you inside for the rest of it, making it 56man raid)
The Eureka map series with I think 144 players per zone max - all grinding mobs to spawn bosses to kill those bosses, and that final Eureka area that allows you to do the public raid that I mentioned previously~
That was good MMO content. Oh and that raid had limits on resurrection - and the last boss literally flushed you out of it like a turd in a toilet bowl if you died to it - getting no loot if the group killed it cause you had been removed from the area already.
I hope Ashes has that feeling in everything - high risk high reward - learn and try again.
imagine, that for every single 2 /48 man raids, you needed to do a quest to get inside the lobby room.
Now imagine that for every single raid to be killed, you needed to fight with 3 other clans that have the same amount of people like your clan has.
Now imagine after wining the fight you go inside the raid room and you earn the well deserved drop.
THAT is the feeling that Lineage2 used to give us, nothing was for granted, you had to EARN the right to kill a boss.
best feeling ever. !!!!
Open World PvP sounds good until you decide to just play for a few hours a day. The sweaty dudes who play 16 + hours/day get way ahead of you and in the end you end up not being able to play at all
Don't want to alarm you Narc, but i think those 50 notes might be fake..
@paradox_gaming_network would like a word
you can jump on my comment here, it's all right. but from what i have seen playing a variety of mmo's (just my personal thoughts i realize) is that whenever game designers try to design what you are describing they forget something. they forget that some people out there just like to bully and grief other players. some people who play find the most delight in the game if they think they have harassed another player so much that the other player quits the game altogether. devs will implement systems to police this but the systems they create are for normal people - they ignore the player group i have just described and therefore the system fails. so go ahead and criticize me, but i have seen this repeated over and over again as various games say that they have 'the system' .
Too many conclusions being drawn about a system that hasn't been either implemented or tuned yet. Its nuts. World pvp can be great. Consequences and the ability to bypass them will determine how toxic it will get. Toxicity should be in the game. But only to a certain level.
@@gamingtemplar9893 Real toxicity is comments from people like you who are not trying to make game better, but they are trying to change game to suit well to themselves. And then they are pretending it is for the game's best interest. You are like swarm... everywhere in comments.
Anyone remember the days when there was a griefing high lvl you would shout to your guild and it was an all out skirmish. 🤔
I'm for the constant state of pvp, I don't mind that risk of losing materials or losing a bit of time because some other players beat me that's how world pvp is. But Narc you did gloss over a very good point Asmon made about large dominating guilds. Whether they are the pvp elite diehards or (like the video he reacted to mentioned) even worse RMT guilds that just pour all their resources into ensuring they are the dominant group. People like these will be able to effectively lock out parts of the game with some of these systems in place. And we are supposed to what? "Just deal with it bro?" Or "Steven and his moderation teams will take care of them just report the players." Look I have all faith in Steven and Intrepid to create this game... But we know video games have been fighting against exploiters, RMT and toxic behavior for years and still they smear their shit across the game. The point Asmon was trying to make is not that the Developers are going to do a bad job at making their game, its that people are shitty and players are going to do everything they can to abuse the systems in game. Its an unfortunate reality of modern gaming, you give players an inch some are going to take it a mile. I believe Intrepid can make an amazing game, but I also know that the community will ruin it with any chance they get.
For you it might be ok but for people who can only play a few hours a day/week... different story.
I know i wouldnt want to be wasting my only free time to play something evertime some sweatlord decides to start pwning.
Its a matter of consideration thats all.
Splitting pve and pvp servers would have 0 impact on the pvpers. Because the people who dont get pve would just leave... which means its only the pvpers left... so the outcome is the same 🤣
@@leewilson852 Hello Kitty Island Adventure is the game for you, Carebear.
@@wiliestrogue2924 Good response....
The level of maturity is obvious.
@@leewilson852 As if someone that can't handle player interaction in a MULTI-PLAYER game knows the first thing about "maturity".
but naaaaaaaaaaaaarc how am i going to be able to kill that boar when 12 rogues are constantly on my ass?
Which is why I like Classic Ragnarok Online. Boss Hunting is very competitive. You use a different class or gear for a certain type of monster you want to farm. You have to communicate with other people and strategize.
This . This... This is pure nostalgia, this is what the 10% of us on every corner of mmos wants to experience again
But you are actually misunderstanding what Asmon said. Use the actual word. Word matter. He didn't say interact he said everytime you give agency over. A company giving someone, you for example, the power to control the outcome of someone else gameplay *** without their consent *** is wrong. He didn't say interacting with someone else is wrong. It's the controlling others without consent that is wrong.
pvp andys want FORCED pvp mmos
but when they get them
they die in a week
What's wrong with having PvP zones? Main world is PvE with lots of group and solo experiences. Then you have level specifications PvP zones for lower levels to practice and grow. And one big PvP zone for end-game with keeps and large-scale warfare. Best of both worlds, all on one server.
Because it allows some players to do just pve, and taking away player choice is what they want.
@@MATCHLESS789 what you call exciting, I call frustrating. Getting ganked by try-hards is just not fun.
No PVE crowd = No substainable revenue = Dead MMO, I don't know how you can't see that bro. "At least we tried" is exactly what every other MMO that has had this model said, this is not their first time to this rodeo :|
Wich others mmo ?
^
@@playervyro Take a look at any of the existing ones, BDO, Lineage 2, even WOW Servers are basically dead, etc. All of these PVP communities are niche and small, no way they can support an entire game and future expansions/content with just them. They need PVE players to buy fancy skins and subscribe/buy things.
@@Nuh L2 die for anothers things bro what are u talking about.. BDO dead ? .. It's not to say that there aren't enough players who like the AOC system.. PVE players maybe 70-30
@@playervyro L2 lost a VAST amount of players on launch and shortly after, my entire guild left the game because the PVP was completely out of control. BDO is very small compared to the bigger 3, and yes, the PVE population is likely around 70% or maybe even more. Are you OK with losing that amount of players because of a small population of PVP'ers?
I'm glad people like pvp games... but you need to accept there is a reason all pvp mmo's die. And why they do so quickly. When other players are your content, the game *has no content*. About the only one to survive is EvE, and that's because it has very niche gameplay, and the playerbase is filled with people who are already literally insane. I.e its an exception, not the rule.
Basically, as soon as you know the game is pvp focused, you know it will be toxic as all hell, and will eat its own userbase due to that toxicity. New player will leave, then existing players will leave because there's no influx of noobs to farm. Its a known cycle of failure hat is inescapable.
Hard disagree on this one, this reeks of too much copium for me. Now I'm worried the game is going to die on this hill and die like the other MMO's. =/
DAOC and Aion did it best IMO. These really confusing corruption systems are stupid and if its so detrimental why even have the forced pvp then?
Having mostly safe pve areas and highly valuable pvp areas in Aion felt great, with the occasional rift invasion windows which was way more exciting and predictable for people wanting to avoid it. Still opens up some opportunity for griefing but it's way less common.
That said, i'll still play it and enjoy the world pvp cause that's usually fun anyway until it's not anymore.
Of course it will die, it's an MMO.
lmao. How much did you play? 5 minutes? "Confusing" corruption system LMAOOO. Just say you don't like PvP.
In its current state, any death can incur the following:
Experience debt (negative experience).
Skill and stat dampening.
Lower health and mana.
Lower gear proficiency.
Reduction in drop rates from monsters.
Durability loss.
I don't mind PvP but the consequence to dying is just brutal even more so compared to BDO.
This rewards the aggressor all the time. There's no incentive to avenge yourself after respawning, you're pretty much handicapped and there's no PVP after that.
I'm not saying that having separate pve and pvp servers are the answer or not, but for arguments sake let's say they considered it.
If the game is not for everyone and pvp focused players are satisfied with (random number) 80k players, wouldn't those players hypothetically join the pvp servers anyway?
Then you have (another random number, assuming pve players are the majority) 300k pve players joining pve servers.
Wouldn't this essentially change very little for those on the pvp servers while also giving them the benefit of a large amount of pve players contributing to the profit margin of the game?
Not sure if I explained that well but a part of me feels like if you just had separate servers then the pvp players will basically have the same community they are hoping to have. Sure there would be some extra development time to adjust things for the pve servers but you also potentially have a far bigger income coming from those player's subscriptions. Just some food for thought.
not even entertaining the idea of having pvp specific zones or servers is so fucking bad for the game, lol. you need casual players to sustain an MMO, especially a subscription based game of this scale. “it’s just not for you” won’t cut it when the game bleeds the majority of it’s players in the first month.
how will the new player experience fare a year after launch, when all the ganking sweats are geared to the teeth and every node is locked down by mega guilds?
Just because a game isn’t for everyone, doesn’t mean it can afford to not be for enough of everyone.
What are those metrics? How do you know the current design wont be financially successful?
@@VyrilGaming Only time will tell. Was’t stating that I know anything about how the specific metrics of this game will play out, but hoping it’s enough to retain a large enough core audience to allow for a long term run.
I guess it entirely depends on the upkeep of the game, studio & salaries. If the game costs half as much as wow did at its height to keep going (Approximately 115m from 2004 - 2008) then they would barely be able to break even with a player base of 200k compared to wows 12 million. Narc mentions wows 12 million player base, but the game reached this height with optional PvP. I do seriously worry about ashes, but I do agree with Narcs take of "if it fails it fails" but that's easy to say when it's not our money being used to make it 😂
@@elryno5437 Yeah but Steven seems to be OK with it. Like its ridiculous to suggest throwing out a core premise of the game before we even hit persistent alpha and can test the corruption system.
@@daroaminggnome As mentioned in my previous reply, I'm not advocating for the redesign of the game. Nor will I. I'm merely querying whether Intrepid will live by the sword and die by the sword should the game become unsustainable if the majority share of players do not share the same love for gameplay that has PvP engrained in everything they do. Alas we will test and see what we think, my hope is that the majority will enjoy it, the corruption system works as designed and we all get what we want.
1st off, love the content. Secondly your hyperbole and sarcasm is not lost on me. However, to address a couple things, I don't think , a game is trash just because it's easy to pick up and put down and you don't have to invest hours and hours on learning a rotation, Or class building To enjoy the game at an acceptable level an acceptable level. I only have an hour or so a night to play video games, comma and I love the MMO style games and interacting with other players. But other players. I'm very casual and I don't like games that are hard or frustrating to play to play mainly because my life is already hard enough as it is lol.. Mostly due to my own life choices and low IQ. I don't play dark souls, but I am glad it exists and I'm glad people have fun with that game. It will probably be the same with ashes, I won't play it but I hope the game is successful for the niche that it is trying to cater to. As far as the Asmo Statement goes, comma hes not wrong 9 times out of 10 it doesn't work. I just hope that ashes is that 1 out of 10 that does work
The PvP will be much more nuanced in Ashes, With players picking a node to call home this in essence will give rise to independent 'factions' who will look to patrol and defend their territory. If systems are put in place to make communication between members of a node quick and easy, call outs of enemies and groups will be given for allied groups to go hunt. So locking down an area won't be as easy as people think. Now, if it is still possible to kill other members of your own node then that reduces the potential effectiveness of the entire situation which I think would be detrimental.
Having played so many MMO's I can understand where this fear of griefing is coming from and I do see it having an effect on player retention, BUT it would all come down to how strict or severe the corruption system is. I fully agree that MMO's have lost the social feeling about them and they are soulless single player games, there will be hard lessons to learn by all of these players who refuse to adapt which is where the player retention loss will occur.
Patrolling would be a painfully boring and unrewarding experience, what benefit does the player have, walking around in the off chance of encountering a trouble maker? You dont get gold, skillups or exp patrolling.
@@Vihara2 True, but it's also an activity I know many of my friends will be doing. Putting even half an hour to check a few notable zones etc. Could also easily establish ourselves as a 'response' group if any allies or other members of our node are being hassled. My point being that there is nuance and to think of everything in a black or white frame means you miss all the colour inbetween.
Killing PK is rewarded. Read about "Bounty Hunters" on the wiki.
@@Vihara2 Idk about patrolling but I'd expect bounty hunting to be fairly active. Getting to grief the griefers, steal their shit, AND get paid for doing it? I'd be shocked if that system has no effect.
@@daroaminggnome how do you find people who will just logoff after getting a good score though, bounty hunters would largely be successful only against lazy gankers, if you're gonna do any policing or bounty work that will net real results, you'd be better off with the sea content they got.
From what ive seen thus far, once the metas set in, AoC will be an organised greifers heaven, multiboxing will allow a player to avoid most of the negative consequences of their behavior.